Newbie 1310: A WILD CHARIZARD APPEARED! - GAME OVER

[Smashbard]

Vote: Om.

I don't know about you. But I like doctors. They can swing these kind of games drastically in towns favor.

Hi, this is Smashbard. I am a designated SE for this game, but really that shouldn't mean anything to you beyond the fact that I've had a few more games on site than you. I will try to answer any questions about Mafia in case Nacho is not available. As I tend to post really late a night you can expect the majority of my activity to be around that time.

I will ask all of you a small series of questions to gauge where we are all coming from. There really isn't a wrong answer to any of these questions. This is just a way to break the ice.

1) What draws you to play the game of Mafia? What are some of your favorite things about the game?

2) Do you tend to take the game very seriously and become aggressive/defensive or do you take a light hearted approach and just go with the flow?

3) How much do you value your gut reads in comparison to another players reads? Do you tend to doubt yourself or tunnel your suspects?




My own answers to these questions.

1) I'm not sure why I keep coming back, but I suppose I enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Piecing together the puzzle. I hate playing as Mafia. I just feel awful lying and deceiving people that you spend upwards to several months playing with. I definitively know why they call it scummy.

2) I definitely take the game way more seriously than I should. It's a flaw. I tend to get defensive or aggressive with my reads. I'm trying to improve on that, because I know it should be a game about fun and not all about winning.

3) I tend to go with my gut on my suspicions a lot more than holding stock in another players opinion, unless they have proven to me that they are exceedingly protown. The only time I tend to go away from my own beliefs is if somebody has cold hard evidence to suggest I should change my suspicions/vote.


I look forward to playing with you all!

[Smashbard]

@Smashbard- Thanks for answering your own questions first! You sometimes don't see that. You mentioned you might get more aggressive in your reads.....does this correlate to the amount (or severity) of your gut feeling? Or would you say you're just generally more aggressive?

Pretty much, yes it correlates with the severity of my gut reading. The more I see a guy as scum, the harder I jump up and down telling people to lynch the obvious scum (to my eyes anyway). It tends to get worse if I feel like my reasons are being ignored or not considered properly. But I almost never resort to direct insults or attacking people for not voting my way. I just get very aggressive with how much more I hound someone the more they can't answer basic questions about whatever it is I am suspicious about.

This tends to backfire more often than not. As I have admittedly mislynched more often than been right about someone's scumminess. Thus making me look really scummy in the process. Unfortunately I haven't quite found a different way that is more effective at scumhunting. But being this is a newbie game I will try to keep my ego in check as it's more important to teach people the ropes of mafia than brutally beat them into a logical pulp just because I think they are scum.

[Smashbard]

Or as this game goes, i could be lying about every single thing..........

Why specifically point out the possibility that you could be lying? If you're town aligned, do you feel it's beneficial to lie at any time? Or do you think it's something purely scum would do?

[Smashbard]

Or as this game goes, i could be lying about every single thing..........

Interesting.

What do you find interesting about it?

[Smashbard]

Or as this game goes, i could be lying about every single thing..........

Why specifically point out the possibility that you could be lying? If you're town aligned, do you feel it's beneficial to lie at any time? Or do you think it's something purely scum would do?

The best lies are the ones that have some truth with them. With that state of mind, the best thing for scum to do is tell the truth.
I know it puts me on the spotlight. But unfortunately for me, i was always thought to look at both sides of the argument and thats the approach i take for many things in life.

If i am town, i have absolutely no reason to lie. If i am scum, i would have to hide my lies.
There is a possibility that i could get lynched by telling the truth because someone else lied.
And assuming i'm town, scum could kill me off early on for simply telling the truth.


I'll say this now, i'm a vanilla town.
Whether i'm lying or not is up to you.
But if something doesn't add up, then SOMEONE did lie.

I'll be perfectly honest, I have no idea what you're driving at here. lol.

Why claim so early? Scum is already going to know your alignment, and town has no reason to trust a blanket vanilla claim that grants you any sort of townness. So you literally gain nothing from revealing it so early.

[Smashbard]

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

........apart from your trust.

Well i seem to be doing well, huh?

/sarcasm

It's not really a matter of trust, because nobody has any reason to believe your claim anyway.

The reason I say that is because Scum knows your alignment, but they don't know what KIND of town you could be. To instantly claim Vanilla is harmful in the long run because scum knows now not to kill you at night. Because you are not the Cop or Doctor pretty much by your own admission. This leaves room for them to target any other player, which exponentially increases their chances of killing our power role.

Just understand that it does town no good to mass claim so soon. As scum could say they are vanilla just as easy as town, and power roles aren't going to role claim so early and get themselves killed night 1 before they even have a chance to use their ability. So everyone will just claim Vanilla and there's now way so early to tell who's lying.

[Smashbard]

Or as this game goes, i could be lying about every single thing..........

Interesting.

What do you find interesting about it?

If he is a town he has no reason to lie and he is claiming that he could be lying on first page for no reason puts me off my track's.

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

.....
I'm not sure about you, but we are certainly losing something really important.
You do realize that in this set-up it's important to hide who our PR's are, don't you?
You just unnecessarily reduced one possible slot to think over as possible PR for them, unless you're scum yourself claiming to be VT. This actually increased our chances of losing our PR in first night.

You should never claim unless you're on L-1. Some even argue against that.

I would personally only claim my power role if I had actual information to give, or someone else requested I do so. Like, if I was the Cop, and I only had one innocent result the previous night who also happened to die, I probably wouldn't claim. Because either way it's a lose lose because sure, I survive the lynch but I'm dead come the night phase anyway so I'll never get a second investigation result anyway.

[Smashbard]

Chances are slim that mafia will kill people that sheep easy because they are the easiest to convince to mislynch. Theres nothing official about that. I've just noticed a sure meta pattern with scums keeping week town around as both sheep and easy lynch targets.

[Smashbard]

Ebwop: will not kill

[Smashbard]

I would like elaboration as to why theres a wagon on the doctor and why empdear is town. I see dry and xegarus as town. Don't know about nacho. He wan this chummy in our last game. *Wasnt

[Smashbard]

He was town, I was scum. It's not horribly relevant but a contrast I'm taking note of

[Smashbard]

I actually agree that Dyrynify's vote seems a little too hastly, but he saw something scummy and he went for it. I certainly won't vote for him because of it, but I will keep my eye on him. As for you X, your RC did nothing, as of yet, but might help to expose Dyrynify later on. Only time will tell. Even if it does end up helping the town, It's not something I would ever do. This game, to me, is about figuring out things. Investigation. RC'ing, again, for me, kills that to some extent. An RC could be a complete lie, but even a lie gives away a lot of information.

This seems like commenting on the Roleclaim event to me. Unless everyone has noticed something else major going on beyond Xega's roleclaim that should be discussed.

Regardless, this entire post reeks of fence sitting to me upon review. As well as a few other choice tells. The quick vote, unvote and playful aside about not wanting to be modkilled seems like he's afraid to die, or even draw attention to himself. Could be a very early scum catch here.

Unvote. Vote: TheDoctor

As for you X, your RC did nothing, as of yet, but might help to expose Dyrynify later on. Only time will tell.

To Drynify: What do you suppose TheDoctor means when he says you might be exposed later on? I'd like your take on that.

~Vote tags and quote tags were fixed.

[Smashbard]

How the hell did that happen? Editing fail for the lose.

Unvote. Vote: TheDoctor

[Smashbard]

TheDoctor is at L-1, by the way.

[Smashbard]

To Drynify: What do you suppose TheDoctor means when he says you might be exposed later on? I'd like your take on that.

Honestly? I have not given it much thought. It seems a lot like fishing to me. Almost like he was hoping I would reflexively shout, "But I am so totally not scum, you guys!" I am not sure he thinks I am scum, but it looks like he might.

I am still not sure how my targeting of a scummy action makes me scummy, but whatever.

I will say that the post quoted by you is a very buddy-buddy post by TheDoctor. Scum buddy level? That remains to be seen.

The reason I feel you're town is precisely because you jumped on the first remotely scummy thing that happened.

But I'm considering the possibility that the doc could be new scum that accidentally outed you as his partner by hinting that there is something about you that has a risk of being exposed. It's just a very odd post of his all the way around. But his avoidance of taking a side between you or Xega felt like trying to participate while still playing it safe. I can see why he's acted the way he has if he's coming from a scum mindset, but I'm not seeing the same motivation from a town perspective.

Also, Empdear quickly sheeping your vote doesn't sit well with me. But I actually see that more as buddying than thedoctors avoiding you.

[Smashbard]

I had read, and read the responses to his RC. He did something dumb, and he was getting grilled for it, but I did not see any reason to add to a lynch mob mentality. I was sitting out to see if I saw anything worth pointing out. I'm not a big fan of repeating things others have said, but I guess I will be forced to do so on this site.

What you call reiterating what other people have already said, I call stating your opinion, whether it's the same opinion that's already been stated or not, it's useful. If we all decided not to state our opinions on someone's scummy action just because another player beat us to it, then we'd never get enough players to vote for a lynch.

[Smashbard]

The mafia knows that you are not a PR, or you are mafia and you brought attention to yourself.

How would they know if i am or not a PR?
They would have to believe me first. Its not like anyone is taking anything at face value.

If i was either mafia or town, i kinda have already brought attention to myself.

I think you just need to understand, if you're town, there is no benefit at all to immediately claiming you are a vanilla townie.

Let me try to break this down, because no offense, you're not getting the message. Assuming we mislynch today a vanilla townie today, just for simplicity sake.

The rolecop is going to investigate you now, almost guaranteed. If you are telling the truth, then they will see that you are vanilla, and be able to kill any other player, drastically increasing their chances of killing our power roles. If there is only one of us, they have a 20% chance of killing a power role. If there are two of them, that's a 40% chance of killing one of our power roles.

If you are for whatever reason, lying about your role and ARE a power role, then when they investigate you, they have a 100% chance of killing our power role, because you're dead.

Now if you would of never claimed at all, the scum would have no idea where to look, and who to rolecop taget. So their chance of killing any power role would of been equally 16% approx. Because it would not have been clear who they should target to kill or rolecop.

So no matter what happens at this point, just by you claiming vanilla townie out of the blue, you have drastically improved scums chances of nuking our night game advantage. At best, we now have a 20% chance of losing a power role, assuming we don't lynch them in the first place today. At worst, you've given them a 100% guaranteed kill target.



So TL;DR, vanilla claiming for no reason has improved scums chances at killing our power roles by a minimum of 4% - 84%. It's basic math. You should not have roleclaimed. So now at this point you need to step it up and stop getting stuck on why everyone is telling you it's a bad move, accept it's a bad move, and start redeeming yourself by helping us find the scum.

[Smashbard]

EBWOP: In case I wasn't clear about this, if that post doesn't convince you that claiming was a bad move, I'm moving my vote to you and advocating your lynch, Xegar. Because now you've become a liability, and I would rather risk mislynching by voting you than allowing you to stay alive when keeping you around means the chances of me dying in the night are increased.

[Smashbard]

It obviously wasn't settled by the time of my comments because xegar was still truong to argue that scum wouldn't know if he was lying or not. So trying to sweep an important topic under the rug when it's only page 5 is real scummy to me why would cf riot be pushing a, lynch on me beyond trying to shut down discussion? It doesn't look good for riot or xegar at all. Especially since xegar is sheeping riot s point that, this was settled on page 2. could one or both be getting nervous? hmm.,

[Smashbard]

For the record I don't find riot to be scum just yet. I think he would bus xegar at this point rather then risk outing each other so soon with such obvious budding. I could be wrong. As wanting to, lynch due to noise is always a policy, lynch. Xegar ifs ungodly riding his coat tails though, which I don't think town would do. Shad go having, hidden reasons for a, vote on page 6 with no night action to go off dds scum advantage.

[Smashbard]

God thhats horrible grammar. I'll post after work.

[Smashbard]

For the record I don't find riot to be scum just yet. I think he would bus xegar at this point rather then risk outing each other so soon with such obvious budding. I could be wrong. As wanting to, lynch due to noise is always a policy, lynch. Xegar ifs ungodly riding his coat tails though, which I don't think town would do. Shad go having, hidden reasons for a, vote on page 6 with no night action to go off dds scum advantage.

Edit using an actual keyboard rather than a janky touch screen.


For the record, I don't find CF Riot to be scum just yet. As an experienced player I think he would rather bus Xegarus if he came under pressure rather than make it so horribly obvious that they are buddying/defending each other.

I could be wrong, because wanting to lynch me due to a very weak excuse as if I'm making more noise than anybody else is by definition, a policy lynch. He hasn't once said that I am scum, or even accused me of being scum. But rather, his reasons for getting rid of me are for causing "noise" because I was still participating in relevant conversation.

And yes it was relevant conversation because Xegarus, Nacho and The Doctor were still discussing it. To vote for me means he should be equally willing to vote for Xegar, Nacho or Doctor for participating in the same conversation.

Just because CF Riot says it's not a policy lynch does not make it an obvious, blatant policy lynch. You can't just say "I'm not voting for you" when you are voting for someone and expect anyone to take you seriously.

Xegar is obviously riding on CF Riot's coat tails though. Being that Riot is the experienced player, Xegar was originally being very meek and even directly after Riots defense of him, he continued to fence sit not being sure whether or not he thought I was scummy. That was, until CF Riot started coaching him and directing his vote for Riot wants it, then Xegar suddenly dropped his indecision and voted for me.

For "Reasons" that he will not state. I'm telling you right now, if anybody says they have "Untold Reasons" as to why they are voting for someone as if they have some hidden evidence by page 6 of a game, they are lying scum. Guaranteed. It screams scum information advantage. He knows I'm town, so he wants to act like he has some super secret tech against me when in reality, he has nothing, and just wants to create the air as if he knows what he's doing, when in reality he's just riding off the waves created by CF Riot and trying to add onto them.

Hence why I think Riot could be town. Because Xegarus can mislynch me and then play innocent newbie, keeping CF Riot alive just long enough to frame him Day 2 for leading the town into a mislynch. CF Riot doesn't see it because Xegar is buddying him so Riot is blinded by ego bias because he doesn't have the heart to suspect Xegar of his scumminess because he's the only player who agrees with his suspicions of me.

Unvote. Vote: Xegarus.

Only scum and power roles have excuses to keep secrets. And Xegarus has already claimed Vanilla, so which one do you think he is (everyone)?

[Smashbard]

@Bard: It's still not a policy lynch. You can keep calling it that if you think it will keep people from voting you but it's not. Also ya know that story at the bottom of your post, about Xeg's grand scheme to play me for a chump and how you see through it but I can't cause I'm blinded by my giant ego? Yeah, that was cute.

@CF Riot: It's still a policy lynch. You can keep calling it not if you think it will help get people to sheep your wagon on me, but it's still policy. Also ya know that time where you voted for me without really having a reason for voting for me beyond what you perceive to be noise that 3-4 other players have participated in the same time I did? Yeah, that was cute.

[Smashbard]

@smash
Are you sure you're not getting nervous?

To be nervous I would have to

A) Be scum

and B) Believe that I was going to get lynched.

Which I am neither of those. If the town collectively would decide to lynch me because of CF Riot's extremely weak reasoning, I wouldn't have any sour grapes. Because I have defended myself adequately, and let a paper trail for people to look back on based on who I called out as scummy.

If your reason for voting for me is so blatantly obvious that anyone paying attention could call it out and then jump on my wagon because of the brilliance of your case, then if you were town you would say it and try to get the player you feel is scummiest lynched. Instead, you're holding back because you're scum, you know I'm town, and you know that anything you say at this point isn't going to be worth the hype and you're afraid of attention shifting towards you en masse for how scummy you've been since the start of this day phase.

I thought you were just uninformed town trying to learn the game. But I'm quickly realizing otherwise.

Hey smash, remember when you voted for Doc and made sure you reminded everyone he was L-1, yeh that was cute. Hoped someone else would just jump?

Lol. Cute. You're making my job real easy and you don't even realize it.

I mentioned The Doctor was at L-1 for the precise OPPOSITE reason, so that newb scum like yourself couldn't just hop on the quick hammer and than feign innocence Day 2 as if you didn't know what the vote count was.

What, a little frustrated that I pointed that out before you could hammer him?

No no, no. Seriously. PLEASE tell me how it makes any sense for town or scum to specifically mention that the Doc was at L-1, with the hopes that somebody would see that as a queue to JUMP ON THE WAGON.

I almost don't want you lynched, you've made me laugh quite a bit in the past 20 minutes. I don't want to lose that entertainment, but I also don't want to lose this game. So...you kinda have to go.

[Smashbard]

See, the difference between you and me is that I will admit when I am voting for someone based solely on policy. Apparently you're not willing to take that same risk and lose face in case you're wrong. Who's the scummy one here again? (Hint, it's not me).

I've admitted that I believed Xegar was town early on, and that read had no changed by the time I threatened to vote for him. I don't see the problem here. I legitimately said that I would rather risk a mislynch on him than keep him around if he were to continue thinking what he did by claiming was the right move.


I'll tell you what, you continue reiterating over and over again that your vote on me is not based on policy. We'll see how far it gets you, aaaand I'll go ahead and start paying attention to other players not named CF Riot/Xegarus, so that I can catch other people who are taking advantage of our argument as an excuse to lay low. I've already refuted your case on me about...a billion times now. So if you choose to be stuck on it and tunnel me, that's your perogative. Just now that you're scumdar is way off track, and it would help if you could think objectively rather than just continue to let Xegar stroke your ego allowing you to feel that the Big Bad Smashbard is evil for even daring to lay suspicion on your buddy.

[Smashbard]

Because what's important is that I convince everybody else that your case on me is nothing but policy, and so far, it sounds like guys like Dry, Doc, Kittie and Om all realize that your case is too weak to warrant a vote. You're quickly running out of allies buying into your bullshit. So I'd suggest you find something else to accuse me of, or risk being totally irrelevant due to being so stuck tunneling one player and defending Xegar rather than doing actual scumhunting yourself. Pot, meet kettle. I'll be making tea.

[Smashbard]

Unvote.

I want to be clear, I still believe Xegarus is the scummiest person thus far. But since he caved his reasons for voting me once he hit L-1 I'd rather not lynch him just yet before I've had a chance to analyze the other players this game.

[Smashbard]

Sorry for the delay. I just recently downloaded Lord of the Rings Online and my time has been occupied with that. I WILL be rereading the thread tonight though and will definitely post a complete list of reads based on each player in the game thus far.

[Smashbard]

Just a note right now, I realize that only two scum can be in this set up, and that I have more than two suspects. That’s because I want to avoid having any sort of “null tells” because that doesn’t do anybody any good to say “Well this person hasn’t done enough for a legitimate read”. I find that to be a cop out as an excuse to not have to really formulate a person about someone.

Spoiler:

Town:
CF Riot – The only scummy thing coming out of him is constant the constant defense of Xegarus. But post #168 is the most compelling argument for convincing me that Xegar could be town. Scum definitely don’t go against the grain as much as a stubborn town would. So Xegar telling people “no”, however frustrating, is an objective town tell.

Dyrynify: I feel like he’s suffered the same bias as I have and got caught up in thinking Xegar/CF Riot were taking the gold for most obvious scumteam of all time, but when he finds something scummy, he jumps on it without fear of whether or not it’s a popular move.

Nachomamma: I wasn’t sure about Nacho at first but their very hard pressing of TheDoctor and Kitiekat is definitely showing an interest in trying to get to the core of player motivations. I still don’t quite understand why he’s solidly believed Xegar is town despite everything that’s happened but I’m taking his word for it, for now.

Om: Equally as attentive to scummy behavior as Dyrnify, he’s questioned everything that came across as remotely scummy so far this game. I’d like to know why he also believes Xegar is his top town read, but other than that he reads like a Mini Nacho to me.

Xegarus: I honestly want this guy to be scum more than anyone else. But I can’t deny that three of my town reads (Nacho, Riot & Om) all believe Xegar to be strongly town. I don’t get it, and I could of believed that Riot was just Xegar’s scumbuddy defending him. But I can’t believe that all of these pro-town dudes are scum partners of Xegar. For now, I reluctantly concede that he’s not today’s lynch.


Scum:

Emp-Dear: Post #39 hasn’t set well with me since the beginning of the game. I just can’t put my finger on WHY it bothers me. I get the same feeling from #55. I don’t know I just get this feeling that he’s been playing it real safe so far as to not rock the boat too much with his own thoughts. Call it a gut scum read.

Kitiekat: Post #51 is an extremely safe post. S/he doesn’t do any actual scumhunting at all, yet posts about 3 paragraphs explaining why each of three different players actions are not scummy to him/her. Also admitting that they didn’t even realize why a Doc wagon was happening when he got all the way to L-1 is dangerously close to not paying attention. Other than that since they’ve been actually asking questions lately makes me feel a little better. So this is probably my weakest scumread.


The Doctor: Post #53 seems way too eerily similar to Kitiekats Post #51…very convenient timing for them both to say basically the exact same thing about Xegar & Dyrynify. Both equally as wishy washy. If either of those two were to flip scum, I would have a strong gut read on the other being the partner.

TL;DR:


Town:
CF Riot
Dyrynify
Nachomamma
Om
Xegarus


Scum:
Emp
Kitiekat
The Doctor

[Smashbard]

No votes as of yet. Still trying to decipher who I believe is the scummiest out of my 3 potential suspects. I would have to wade through a lot of old links to find all my most recent games on this site. I'll do that after I've had some time to sleep. My play is largely the same, town or scum. It's just simply how I play the game. I've often thought of switching up how I play, like lurking more, just to throw off people for future games that might try to make some sort of a meta case against me. But I always find myself being too engaged in the games I'm in to ever really hang back and let the action take place without me square and center.

[Smashbard]

Announcing intent to hammer. I'd like a claim from TheDoctor, whether he agrees with them or not. Also, if anybody has any further questions or objections, feel free to ask them now.

If there are no objections, I'll be hammering the day after Christmas. Because anything before that is just cruelty.

[Smashbard]

As I've stated before I get why I wouldn't role claim in a situation that would not help town, such as being a power role on day 1. Claiming would be silly because then mafia would just kill me anyway. But after thinking about it, not claiming when your r town is pretty much the wurst thing I could do. As I would not want town to mislynch an,, innocent without a fight. Your refusal therefore to claim tells me you must be scum who's too afraid to claim power due to

[Smashbard]

The threat of power counter claims and you don't see the use in faking vanilla cause it won't save you.

[Smashbard]

I was announcing intent to hammer as to give people a chance to speak objectiins and last minute questions so we could gather as much info as possible. You kinda just killed that intent.

[Smashbard]

Right now is twilight. no more votes or un votes are counted but we can still talk until the mod reveals doc s,f flip. Then it is night phase.

[Smashbard]

There is no reason I can think of. Even in a set up that allows for someone to potentially watch their night action, it is still a kill. If I am wrong, someone tell me, but we seem to have a protective role. Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

How would this give us a leg up on the suspect?

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

Vote: Dyrnify

Please, tell me how knowing who was protected will help us figure out who actually did the kill?

Do you have reason to believe a Jailkeeper exists?

[Smashbard]

Dyr was so not protown yesterday and I have a hard-on for that wagon cause he's fishing so hard today but the one thing holding me back is the hammer. Assume town Brad announcing intent to hammer, does scum Dyr throw it down first or would he just stay off the mislynch and let Brad finish it off? I don't know him at all but purely from this being a newbie game I don't see him having the foresight to try to gain towncred by being

on

a mislynch wagon.

Well damn. Yeah, if Dyrnify was scum he would of just let me hammer. I'm pretty sure even new scum would recognize that as ideal strategy. Because new scum are going to be overly cautious to begin with to make sure they don't attract much attention.

Unvote.

There is no reason I can think of. Even in a set up that allows for someone to potentially watch their night action, it is still a kill. If I am wrong, someone tell me, but we seem to have a protective role. Now, I just want to know who it was, and who was protected. That would give us a leg up on the suspect.

How would this give us a leg up on the suspect?

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

Vote: Dyrnify

Please, tell me how knowing who was protected will help us figure out who actually did the kill?

Do you have reason to believe a Jailkeeper exists?

Let's look at the doctor scenario. If it was a doc, they protected the scum target. meaning they protected someone who really ticked of the scum yesterday, enough to want to kill soon. I won't speculate on who that might me, I am still backreading and assessing my reads. But, that is irrelevant. If we know the target, we can begin the investigation with the person they butted heads with the most yesterday. It is not perfect, but a good place to start.

Now, the Jailkeeper roughly the same, but with differences. If the jailor chose to target a scummy player, then they got lucky and prevented the kill. If they instead decided to protect town, they got lucky and blocked the kill. Either way, a RC from a jailkeeper, along with who they targeted, gives us a good point to go on as well.

Again, not suggesting we do it. It is a dangerous plan with only short term gains. I don't want it to happen. I was asked a question on how it would work, and answered.

So, once more, lets say this big and loud:

I DON'T WANT OR EXPECT TO SEE A RC ON THIS. IT WOULD BE STUPID. I DO WANT TO KNOW, BUT NOT AT THE TOWNS EXPENSE. I AM SIMPLY ANSWERING A QUESTION, NOT ADVOCATING A COURSE OF ACTION.

You seem to be putting a lot of emphasis on defending your reasoning for wanting a roleclaim for someone who claims that they in fact, do not want a roleclaim.

I'll just make this as concise as possible. It's a horrible idea for a Doctor/Jailkeeper to roleclaim because then they have no way to protect themselves Night 2 and they just give Mafia the most optimal kill possible. That's all I'll say about that for now.

Who do you think is scum Dry?

While we're at it, why is Nacho worthy of your vote, Om? You're not pushing that line of questioning at all.

The only reason I could imagine you would jump right out of the gate with wanting answers as to why we were lucky enough to not suffer a nightkill tells me you're frustrated scum. Which is shocking to me, because you were so pro-town yesterday. Maybe you jumping on Xegar & CF Riot was just grasping at straws after all?

What do you think of em+p doing the same? Her and dyr are scumbuddies, then?

I would normally believe that as logical but as CF Riot stated, regardless of how scummy I think Dyrnify's recent behavior is, I can't really consider the possibility that Dyr is scum due to ironically, the hammer vote.

As scum, he would of known that TheDoctor was town. So there's literally no reason that he would feel the need to rush that mislynch because I had already stated my intent to hammer.

Unless he was somehow second guessing me and thinking that I would somehow back out of my stated vote (I wasn't going to, that doesn't change knowing how he flipped) and he didn't want to take the chance of people possibly unvoting before he had a chance to end the day before you and Xegar got off your respective V/LA's.

But that's incredibly WIFOMY. So for the time being I have to believe that Dyrnify is town. Unless CF Riot is his partner. Which I find even more unlikely.

[Smashbard]

Dyrnify:

So if you agree with Nacho that Empdear is scummy, how you do feel about Om's analysis that Nacho formerly thought Empdear was town Day 1? Have you always felt Empdear was scummy and it's just convenient that Nacho now agrees with you?

I don't know, it's odd me to that you say Nacho is virtually unreadable, but in the same breath say he's clear town.

I realize that it's very unlikely that you are scum at this point, I'm just trying to understand how you are getting to your conclusions.

Nacho:

What has changed in the fact that you thought Empdear was one of your top town reads to make him a possible scum suspect? Was his alignment riding on Doctors flip in some way to you?

If so, why has Empdears alignment shifted to you but Kitie still seems like your top scum suspect? Are there connections you are trying to draw that the rest of us are missing here?


Om:

In what way are you confused? Does Nacho's ignoring of your vote increase or decrease his scumminess to you? Do you agree or disagree with suspicions of Empdear & Kitiekat?

It seems to me like the only cases people have so far are on new players that are not as strong as others in defending themselves. I know the order of who's town and who's scum is supposed to be totally random, but I have a hard time believing that both SE's and the IC are all town. I don't really have a strong reason to suspect CF Riot or Nacho at the moment, but I don't buy that all the scum just lie in the weakest players either. So I'm hesitant to consider Empdear or Kitiekat without someone stating some sort of reasonable case beyond "They haven't posted much".

[Smashbard]

I'd like fresh reads from Xegarus when he's available, and the two top suspects, Empdear & Kitiekat to state their full reads of players so far. I'm going to do a little bit of wagon analysis from Day 1 but I don't claim to be an expert in that style of scumhunting. I'm just gonna try something new here.

[Smashbard]

Haven't had a chance to do my wagon analysis yet. Just thought I would chime in.

Mykonian: If you feel that Dyrnify is the second scummiest person, how do you justify him hammering early yesterday when he could of just waited for me to hammer?

Is Nacho solely scummy because he's gotten a bit wordy? I don't have a large sample size of playing with Nacho, but it seems like he just naturally posts walls.

I know replacing out is not necessarily an indicator of scumminess, but I do want to put it out there that I find it really suspicious that Xegar & Kitie both replaced out in quick succession of one another. Especially the KitieKat slot. It makes me feel like Kat just got tired of answering questions from Nacho without getting any headway in deterring suspicions of scumminess. At least Xegar admitted to being genuinely busy.

I will finally decide on a vote after my wagon analysis from Day 1 is done.

[Smashbard]

replacing out is not

necessarily

an indicator of scumminess

You should've stopped here.

With all due respect if I would of just stopped there it would of been such a fluffy post I'd think I was typing in marshmallows.


Mykonian: Care to elaborate as to how you find me scummy? You've so far only stated suspicions of Dyrnify & Nacho, if all you've seen from me is scumminess, why am I not one of your strongest scumreads at this point? Considering if your only reason for suspecting Nacho is a single post where he over explained his read on Kitie, I'd like to know why you see me as posting nothing but scummy things, but not scummy enough things to supercede your read on Nacho & Dyrnify.

[Smashbard]

Emp dear, it's pretty simple. If you feel nacho is voting you in error it's because he's w wrong town or scum. In my mind you're hanging yourself by being too timid. Of you feel he's wrong town you need to engage a and convince him. If he's scum you also need to pursue that line of questing. Engage with the game.

[Smashbard]

I am suspicous of nacho because I have a hard time believing that he as town only suspicous d the two weakest players in the game. Also he's buddied almost every player who's been protown. I also still think dyrnify Is scum even with the hammer hes ben way too quiet since day started in contrast to day 1

[Smashbard]

That being said, I will compromisee an emp dear lynch if we approach dead line.

[Smashbard]

(Not dead)

@Om- Everyone hated him that day for the whole page 1 RC and his vote on smash/vote reveal. I'm not quite sure how to word it...I just think that if the mafia kill was blocked there's a good chance a power rule either new or took a chance that Xeg was town. The mafia may also have seen his RC as "Vanilla Townie" as (not just a bad move like the rest of the town) but suspicious. They may have suspected him for a doctor or jailer or whatever trying to be safe as a normal and figure they have nothing to lose if he really was vanilla townie. A rather farfetched theory, but still...

Is that why you tried to kill Xeg last night?
___________________________________________________________________________________________

I am suspicous of nacho because I have a hard time believing that he as town only suspicous d the two weakest players in the game. Also he's buddied almost every player who's been protown. I also still think dyrnify Is scum even with the hammer hes ben way too quiet since day started in contrast to day 1

Then why not vote either of them?

That being said, I will compromisee an emp dear lynch if we approach dead line.

Fence seating?
___________________________________________________________________________________________

@mykonian;

What was the point of your post #308?

@Nacho;

#336
Here, are you saying that you don't mind lynching Dry if KK/Em_d doesn't go well? Or am I missing something?
Also, In one of your games I noticed that you kept your vote on till replacement player for that slot got word in on it, so why did you unvoted here before SK got word in your vote? You did say that next post from KK/SK slot was going to be important in your post #291, we didn't have that yet, so what changed for you?

1) Because I realize that being suspicious of someone because "They are suspicious of newbies" and "They are buddying protown players" are not really strong tells, as any alignment can be guilty of this behavior, town or scum. I am suspicious of them, not resolute in their scumminess. You could call it a Finger of Suspicion. The reason I find it so odd is because Nacho literally doesn't have or hasn't stated any suspicions of any experienced players thus far.

and 2) Fence sitting would mean that I would be stating that I was not sure whether to vote for Nacho or Emp Dear, which would imply I was waiting to see which side swings which way. That's not the case, because I have only said I will compromise on an Emp Dear vote if we near deadline. I think the chances of Nacho being town are greater than Emp Dear, so I will vote for the latter if we approach deadline.

You yourself have admitted that Nacho's ignoring of your initial vote has confused your read as to whether or not you think Nacho is town or scum. So tell me, what makes your case on Nacho any more solid than his case on Emp Dear? You've been asking Nacho repeated questions, but not really doing anything else to convince anybody else that you're chosen lynch is the right one.

[Smashbard]

My nose is the best thing. Is that not enough? I didn't know Emp was that strong of a read for you.

Who do you feel is scummy? If you've already stated this before just point me in that direction. But so far all I've caught from you is that you feel Xegar, Emp Dear, Dyrnify and I are town. What is your read on Om? You don't trust Nacho, but is he scummy to you?

[Smashbard]

I was not aware of Emp Dears gender, so bringing up me being a pig trying to mascaraed as a nice guy when I have a wife and a kid on the way is pretty egregious character assassination of me on your part. If that's what you're trying to say.

I'm not going to get all bent up out of shape about it demanding an apology, but I am going to say that you're just flat out wrong. Like, about everything.

You've been harping on me since you replaced in, despite having nothing to really go off of on me, and now you've just posted a giant piece of fluff trying to indite me against some stupid case about how scummy I am, without even really scumhunting against anybody except for myself all day.

Obviously Emp Dear is afraid of trying to defend themselves against the suspicions of an IC because of their earlier post wanting to know whether or not it would be wise to even go after an IC due to the need for an IC to answer questions from new players. She is obviously lost as to how to proceed with the game so I was giving advice.

The same kind of advice I was giving Xegar about his Page 1 Roleclaim. I know I said earlier in the game that I was merely an SE and not trained to answer newbies questions, but when I see bad play in a newbie game I can't help that little tick that goes off in my head that makes me want to correct it.

If I'm trying to coach Emp Dear on how to better survive, I was also coaching Xegarus on how to better survive as well. So if you're trying to say that I am scum for that, I guess you and I would be scumpartners too right? Since you replaced Xegar and all. Two problems, there can't be three scum and I'm not one of them.

If you're so convinced that I've been scum since Post #1 RQS, why isn't your vote on me? For someone so convinced you sure are struggling to find the gumption to vote me. Are you waiting to hear support from the other players first before you try and proceed with a lynch? Seems like you're not willing to take the leap on my wagon if it's not already backed by popular opinion first. You wouldn't need that if you weren't worried about drawing suspicion to yourself.

Soo any suspicions on anyone but me? Or is this a classic case of tunneling 101?

[Smashbard]

Smash wrote:

That's not the case, because I have only said I will compromise on an Emp Dear vote if we near deadline.

I think the chances of Nacho being town are greater than Emp Dear,

so I will vote for the latter if we approach deadline.

Why?
Because as far as I can see from what you've said in your point 1 of the post #363 is lot more then

''player X is passive''

, which isn't strong indicative of alignment either.
Certainly enough to vote Nacho right now, isn't it?
*Pretty pleas*
I hope that was convincing enough ;D

Nobody is going to give you 'strong tells' if you don't vote or ask questions from different angles and you've been really cautious about where you put your vote for my liking. Also, you saying

''player X & Y are suspicious but I wouldn't mind voting for player Z if deadline come''

doesn't help it. Vote>FOS, we are not in LyLo.

I'm sorry I'm just not convinced that Nacho is scum at the moment. He's been pushing Emp Dear a lot with zero traction going either way, but I don't read it as scummy. Emp Dears done even less though. I don't think I've seen them ask a single serious scumhunting question since the start of Day 2. All they've done is concentrate all their time on answering Nacho's questions, which have honestly been like a series of soft balls because Nacho really isn't trying that hard to convince anybody but Riot that Emp Dear should be lynched.

Vote: Emp Dear

I'm gonna need to know that Dear is going to have some sort of useful contribution to the town before I move this vote. All I'm seeing is walls not even defending oneself but going "Yeah, I can see how you feel I'm suspicious".

[Smashbard]

I was not aware of Emp Dears gender, so bringing up me being a pig trying to mascaraed as a nice guy when I have a wife and a kid on the way is pretty egregious character assassination of me on your part. If that's what you're trying to say.

I'm not going to get all bent up out of shape about it demanding an apology, but I am going to say that you're just flat out wrong. Like, about everything.

You've been harping on me since you replaced in, despite having nothing to really go off of on me, and now you've just posted a giant piece of fluff trying to indite me against some stupid case about how scummy I am, without even really scumhunting against anybody except for myself all day.

Obviously Emp Dear is afraid of trying to defend themselves against the suspicions of an IC because of their earlier post wanting to know whether or not it would be wise to even go after an IC due to the need for an IC to answer questions from new players. She is obviously lost as to how to proceed with the game so I was giving advice.

The same kind of advice I was giving Xegar about his Page 1 Roleclaim. I know I said earlier in the game that I was merely an SE and not trained to answer newbies questions, but when I see bad play in a newbie game I can't help that little tick that goes off in my head that makes me want to correct it.

If I'm trying to coach Emp Dear on how to better survive, I was also coaching Xegarus on how to better survive as well. So if you're trying to say that I am scum for that, I guess you and I would be scumpartners too right? Since you replaced Xegar and all. Two problems, there can't be three scum and I'm not one of them.

If you're so convinced that I've been scum since Post #1 RQS, why isn't your vote on me? For someone so convinced you sure are struggling to find the gumption to vote me. Are you waiting to hear support from the other players first before you try and proceed with a lynch? Seems like you're not willing to take the leap on my wagon if it's not already backed by popular opinion first. You wouldn't need that if you weren't worried about drawing suspicion to yourself.

Soo any suspicions on anyone but me? Or is this a classic case of tunneling 101?

Pretty sure I'm accusing you of buddying, but if that's the way you want to go, be my guest.

vote smashbard

for this post as much as the previous. Who wants to fish out the amount of arguments which had nothing to do with the accusation posted? Or do I have to?

If I got something wrong out of your post then I suppose that would be because you A) weren't very concise and B) what you did say was fluffy and didn't make a whole lot of sense. So I took what I could from it. So I'll actually be the first to say yes, please explain which arguments had nothing to do with your accusation. I have nothing to dodge, I'll answer anything you got for me.

Next time you try to make a case, make sure you've got plenty of sleep. Because half asleep wall posting is never going to get you much support.

If all you've got on me is RQS and Buddying, what do you have to say about Nacho buddying CF Riot and yourself? Of Xegarus (you) buddying CF Riot? Of Kitie (Skrew) buddying me?

Oh that's right, you're ignoring all of my perfectly valid questions because you feel I am scum. Believe it or not that's why I'm not hounding you as one of my top two scum suspects, because so far the way you've conducted yourself is town in my eyes. Really bad town, because you're not willing to listen. But town all the same.

[Smashbard]

Could someone play middle man for me since Mykonian is going to do the whole "I'm not talking to you! *plugs ears*" strategy. All I need is for someone not named Smashbard to ask the exact same questions I am asking, since so long as he feels I'm scum he's going to refuse to answer any of them.

[Smashbard]

Oops- sorry myko! I knew it started with an 'm'. Still need to get used to these new usernames ^^;

emp, when did your read on drynify change?

Day 2, really. The fishing for night kill answers may have put him on my radar, but what really got to me was that he didn't give any indication of suspecting me in posts or in reads until after I said I was starting to suspect him. He was asked twice what he thought about who is who, and both times he merely replied that he would 'read earlier posts' (paraphrasing) giving plenty time for others to post their reads and him to figure out who was safe to suspect. No indication even of what he was looking for/thinking about.

@Nacho-'Kay I answered your questions, why haven't you answered any?

Oh it seems there's a wagon on me. Awesome. And L2, huh? Shit, I guess a lot can happen over night. I'm still not seeing smash as scum though. He had eyes on me since-I believe it was post #55?- anyway. Of course, he could have seen that as a tell that I would be a weak player and knew that pointing the finger at me now might help him later, but if he was really weeding out possible weaklings to pick on, he would have also suspected Xeg-which he did not-unless the two of them are both scum, which I find ever-the-more unlikely. Dyr & nacho don't surprise me, though.

If Dyrnify is scum, why would he hammer TheDoc before me purposefully drawing attention to himself? I'm still trying to figure that out. If it wasn't for that I would be in total agreement that Dyrnify is scum. But I can't figure out why as scum he would feel the need to quicklynch when he could just frame me for hammering TheDoc and causing a mislynch.

What makes you believe Nacho is scum? Is it based solely on the fact that he hasn't let up on you?

What is your opinion about Kitiekat/SleepyKrew?

[Smashbard]

*Yawn* that's nice Myko. Let me know when you actually want to help catch some scum. Because you still haven't answered what you think about any of the other players in the game. Besides saying that myself. Dyrnify, Nacho & Emp Dear are all somehow inextricably linked as scum.

I'm beginning to think you just call anyone who disagrees with you scum. That would explain why half the players alive are the scumteam to you. That's ok though, I can understand that the stress of playing half asleep can cause people to be delusional and not realizing that only two scum can exist in a newbie game.

[Smashbard]

Unvote. Vote: Nacho.

We're not getting anywhere having everyone split within three wagons. Obviously my reasons for suspecting Emp Dear are not convincing enough to everyone else, so yes, I'm compromising with two of my town reads rather than the Dyrnify Wagon because nobody can give me a straight answer as to why Dyrnify would hammer as scum on Day 1.

[Smashbard]

because he didn't see your intent to hammer
because there weren't any scum on the wagon and he was getting antsy
because he suspected doctor of being a power role and didn't want to give him time to actually claim

Good enough for me. Yes, my vote on you is trusting in Om's and CF's logic, but also based on the fact that you're play has been odd up to this most recent series of posts by you, which is more like the Nacho I played with before. So

Unvote

.


And my point against Mykonian "not having the balls" to vote me was because at the time he was simply going "Hey guys, Smashbard is scum" without actually putting his money where his mouth is. So I was calling him out on what assertive scum like to do, and that's direct traffic telling people that a player is scum without actually voting them. Because from a Scum standpoint he would know I was town and would not be willing to be on my wagon in case his arguments actually gained traction, and thus get a lot of heat Day 3 after my flip.

Then he proceeded to vote for me after I called him out on it, and then vote for Dyrnify just because Emp Dear voted for him. I don't trust Mykonian one bit. But thinking objectively it's probably because he tried to insinuate that I was being a white knight sexist pig towards Emp Dear with my advice. So I probably WANT him to be scum a lot more than he may actually be scum.

[Smashbard]

Not really, I just wanted to do that for the effect. Dyr is kinda scummy but I think Nacho is a better lynch.

Right now he looks more of a scapegoat though.

That being said.

Vote: Dyrnify

.

My scum suspects at the moment are Dyrnify & Nacho or Dyrnify & Emp Dear. So either way the common denominator vote goes to Dyrnify.

[Smashbard]

Dyrnify is now officially at L-1 I believe. His counting was off.

[Smashbard]

Brad what links Dyr to either of those pairings?

There's no link as far as I can see. This is mostly down to the fact that I believe you, Om and Mykonian are town. Sleepykrew isn't posting enough for me to have a solid read. That leaves some combination of those three. And I can almost guarantee that Dyrnify is scum at this point. So my reads are based on him being scum for sure, and then Nacho or Emp Dear being the missing link.

How do you feel about the fact that both Emp and Nacho are voting Dyr?

Well if Dyrnify flips town then I would be very suspicious of both of them being the scumteam. If he flips scum then I think Nacho is more likely to be the busser than Emp Dear.

What exactly about Nacho's recent posts is different than his early posts, and in which game have you seen town-Nacho doing the same thing?

In my first newbie game (I was scum at the time), Nacho was a lot more aggressive in his reads and pushing of lynches, while at the same time questioning almost every player. He only posted once every three days, which apparently was a meta thing. But when he did post he would always question even the guys he thought were solid town reads, like Camn.

In this game he's been posting a lot more frequently than 3 days, but not been as diligent in his scumhunting. His entire day 2 focus has been on Emp Dear until just recently. I think he was starting to realize that his playing it safe by picking on the newbie all day was gaining a crap ton of suspicion from everyone, and as soon as his wagon got more than just you and Om voting for him he started shaping up his play and actually answering questions.

So his play is MORE like what I'm used to from him right now, but I still feel uneasy about him because of the fact that it took 3 votes just to get him in gear when he realized he couldn't play it safe with Emp Dear anymore.

[Smashbard]

My scum suspects at the moment are Dyrnify & Nacho or Dyrnify & Emp Dear. So either way the common denominator vote goes to Dyrnify.

Brad what links Dyr to either of those pairings?

There's no link as far as I can see. This is mostly down to the fact that I believe you, Om and Mykonian are town. Sleepykrew isn't posting enough for me to have a solid read. That leaves some combination of those three.

This new bottom quote doesn't look like what you were saying in that top quote. In the top you don't say "some combination of these three," you say "Dyr and ____". If it's just a matter of them all being scummy, why don't you mention the possibility of a Nacho+Emp team, ala...

Well if Dyrnify flips town then I would be very suspicious of both of them being the scumteam.

And you're saying you don't have a solid read on SKrew (

prod prod prod please ty

) but I would think then you would be open to the idea of a SKrew being part of a team with one of these 3, which would mean Dyr isn't a solid common denominator.

In this game he's been posting a lot more frequently than 3 days, but not been as diligent in his scumhunting. His entire day 2 focus has been on Emp Dear until just recently. I think he was starting to realize that his playing it safe by picking on the newbie all day was gaining a crap ton of suspicion from everyone, and as soon as his wagon got more than just you and Om voting for him he started shaping up his play and actually answering questions.

So his play is MORE like what I'm used to from him right now, but I still feel uneasy about him because of the fact that it took 3 votes just to get him in gear when he realized he couldn't play it safe with Emp Dear anymore.

All this sounds like a reason to vote Nacho to me, and instead you're using it as a reason to unvote him and vote Dyr, while still saying they could be scum together.

1) I'm not considering Skrew as scum just yet because he hasn't posted anything that would lead me to believe he is scummy. He hasn't posted much at all. So he's pretty much the definition of a null read, so in order to suspect him as scum I would only be doing so for policy reasons. I try to avoid that because I've had too many bad experiences of policy lynching newbies and flipping wrong on them.

2) I'm voting Dyrnify over Nacho because Nacho was the one who gave me a straight answer as to why Dyrnify would of hammered as scum Day 1 even though he could of just waited for me to hammer. Which was pretty much his only saving grace from me voting for Dyrnify in the first place. Without a valid reason for him to hammer as town, he's pretty much #1 scum to me. I'm not moving from this wagon today.

3) I didn't mention the possibility of Emp Dear + Nacho being scum because 3a) I am 90% sure that Dyrnify is scum and 3b) The only way I can see Nacho + Emp Dear as being scum together is a totally WIFOMY case based on thinking Nacho preplanned hounding Emp Dear since the beginning of the game and tunneling him until....? See, it's a horrible theory. So if Dyrnify should not be scum (he is), then Nacho & Emp Dear are only being considered the scum team in my eyes because I view everybody else as town. Process of elimination and all.

[Smashbard]

@ Om

- I'm voting Dyr instead of Nacho because I wanted to give Nacho enough time to answer questions and I'm not as sure of him as I am of Dyr. Though it's very weird that he suddenly turned around and voted Dyr. He answered my questions now anyway, and I'll believe the pressuring me for a good read because I totally felt it.
--
Smash's immediate scum flip on Dyr just because of Nacho's reasoning does make me a bit uneasy, but he was also very quick to see him as town because of CF's post, so not sure just yet to make anything of it.

I believe it was you who I referenced when I said that I agree with you that Dyrnify is scummy as hell, and the only thing preventing me from joining your suspicions was his hammer. After Nacho gave me an answer as to how he could of still hammered as scum, Dyrnify didn't have any shield left to prevent me from voting him.

[Smashbard]

2) I'm voting Dyrnify over Nacho because Nacho was the one who gave me a straight answer as to why Dyrnify would of hammered as scum Day 1 even though he could of just waited for me to hammer. Which was pretty much his only saving grace from me voting for Dyrnify in the first place. Without a valid reason for him to hammer as town, he's pretty much #1 scum to me. I'm not moving from this wagon today.

This made no sense. You showed intent to hammer,

Doc showed no sign of claiming whatsoever,

even though hammer was uncalled for from Dry's slot, it doesn't mean he is scum.

There was no reason

(Yeah, I read Nacho's reasons, but no there is more to it)

for him to hammer unless he was sure in his read of Doc being scum when it was going to happen

anyways. Actually, that was the only thing that gave him town cred over his tunneling anti-town play on Xeg's player slot on D1.

It was uncalled for from Dyrs slot, therefore it was scummy. I was announcing intent to hammer to give people more of a chance to talk. Questions were still being asked and flying around. Dyrnify had an itchy trigger finger and hammered him before discussion was done for the day.

I felt like his decision was rushed and thus it makes perfect sense to me (despite you saying it makes no sense) that nervous scum would of hammered TheDoc wagon in order to shut people up. The only chance CF Riot has of being scum at this point in my eyes is Dyrnify, because CF Riot was the one who got me off of suspecting Dyrnify in the first place, and to this day continues to be against the Dyrnify wagon. Which started me on this roller coaster of switching wagons because I was no longer sure who was the real scum, I let doubt creep into my mind until Nacho helped me out. So town points for Nacho. Death sentence for Dyrnify.

In my mind anyway. Like I said, I'm not moving from this wagon. Even if I'm the last guy on it, I know I've found scum today.

[Smashbard]

Welcome TheTrollie. Looking forward to some fresh insight.

[Smashbard]

I still think Nacho is scum though.

-_-

I really need to work on persuading skills, don't I?

In my mind anyway. Like I said, I'm not moving from this wagon. Even if I'm the last guy on it, I know I've found scum today.

Dunno man, from here it looks like you're a scum. Who is your partner?

Well gee I dunno. Considering the only reason anybody thinks I'm scum is because I'm "buddying" people, I guess that means that Emp Dear, CF Riot, Nacho and TheTrollie are all my scumpartners. Because those are all the people who's slots I've been particularly nice to and giving the benefit of the doubt in my reads of them time and again.

I've seriously yet to hear a single actual case against me. Just that Mykonian misconstrues everything I say as scummy.

My main two positions still stand.

1) I'm not moving from the Dyrnify wagon. Don't like it then lynch me and then go the fuck after Dyrnify after I die and stop durdling around with Nacho suspicions that are 10 pages old.

2) If anybody has any actual questions for me to answer rather than blanket accusations then I will answer them. If it should come to pass that I am about to be lynched than I will post my final reads so everyone has a good idea where to go from my flip.

[Smashbard]

Brad, you do not know what buddying is. Buddying is a term for when a scumslot "buddies up" to a townslot, either by calling them town or by agreeing with their opinions, in order to gain favor with said townie. Buddying does not mean treating your scumbuddy as town.

Refusing to compromise with your vote is anti-town play when there's more than 1 scum in the game, baring obvious things like PR-investigations and such.

I've been so confused with my reads all day today and have been allowing my reads to be dictated by those who sound more confident than myself. So if I sound anti-town it's because I'm tired of being paraded around to whichever wagon some experienced player chooses as his pet scum suspect in this 24 hour period that I should vote for. It's about time I started truly thinking for myself, and that's starting with a gut read that Nacho is town, and a confident read that Dyrnify is scum.

I don't have a solid view on any two players being inextricably tied as scum partners. But I can be sure that Dyrnify is scum because he was so aggressive Day 1, got a mislynch through, but then nobody died Died Night 1 and ever since then he's been lurking a lot, which is a definite change in playstyle. Not explaining his votes, just popping in randomly. Not asking questions like he was before. I don't see how this isn't clearer to everyone else. When somebody comes out like a ball of fire one day, and their playstyle shifts drastically the next day, that's a surefire sign of scumminess to me. ESPECIALLY when there was no death the previous night. He's definitely playing more cautiously. Now why would he feel the need to do that if he were town? He's already claimed Vanilla Townie, so he can't say that it's because he's a power role lurking to try and preserve himself. There's literally no reason for a vanilla townie to be hiding this bad behind survival mode to prevent suspicion from being cast on him.

[Smashbard]

V/LA til Monday. Currently moving to California as my wife and I are being evicted and are going to live with her sister until we get back on our feet. I'm sure they will have Wifi where we are going but I won't have the time to play Mafia until we are more settled in.

Noted.

[Smashbard]

Posting from cell. Some bs is during my v/la. So wanted to say. I think troll is dyrs buddy. Hes not saying why dyr is obv town, just repeating same state ment.

myko is fishing for a free mod kill on nacho for some reason. Also looks bad. If not scummy, then extremely poor form and sports man ship. If he suspect foul play he needs to pm mod and request mod kill. As his line of question has zero baring and scum hunting or if nacho is scum or not.

[Smashbard]

To cf riot - so youre willing to throw the game cause you refuse to consider any body else as scum? And you say im anti town for not giving up my dyrnify scum read? Wow. I really hope youre scum. Cause if youre town please, lynch me today. Id rather not be on the same team as the mafiascum equivalent of colonel custer.

[Smashbard]

Only on page 7. I can tell you right now though this is how the day is going to go:

we are lynching one of Xegarus/Nacho

Kitiekatt is town
Dyrynify is town
CF is town

moving on...

Immediately he claims that scumbuddy Dyrnify is town. Along with a read for CF Riot, who was obv town to most everybody, and calling himself town "not realizing" that he was Kitiekats replacement.

ok well this dyrynify is town as hell so that wagon needs to die

Once again pressuring everyone to get off his buddies wagon.

actually would like myko and cf to get their votes off smash now
if you're gonna pretend the case is stronger on me then it is because of your paranoia, then vote me now
watch dyr not push the emp wagon at all and get stuck into making another scumfuck hammer
watch trollie not explain his vote on me at all
not even a little bit
then let them die

dyr is obvtown

Again, defending dyrnify. Insisting he's obvtown. He must of been really worried about how scummy Dyrnify's quickhammer Day 1 was. Employing the typical brainwashing tactic of saying the same statement over and over in order to make it true in the minds of stupid people.

Om is town btw.

I might switch to smash wagon but only if agree Nacho is tomorrow's likely kill

States willingness to compromise. He just wants to pull off a lynch, any lynch at this point that does not involve Dyrnify.

honestly because i have:

"dyrynify town"

written in my notes i took while catching up. I saw something that made him town. I will try to find it.

Yeah ok, both my scum reads on dyr wagon, Nacho & smash wagons are all town.

Om would u consider switching your vote to smash?

VOTE: smash

i believe thats L-2

Has "Dyrnify is town" in his notes without immediate explanation because they are scumbuddies and was going to come up with justification later for his hardcore defense of Dyrnify.

The one scummy thing that dyr does is that he often adds rhetoric that weakens claims he makes in posts. (something i call distancing but since distancing means something else already i have to come up with another term). However, I believe this is not a scumtell for dyr because this behavior is commonly seen in newbies independent of their alignment, because they are learning the game and are unsure of themselves sometimes.

Dyr's posts come off as very genuine to me, which is why he is a strong town read. he is markedly reactive to things and markedly open when he posts. He is answering a lot of questions, and doesnt seem to be restrictive or hiding anything. Thats why hes a town read for me.

Finally comes up with a wall post over explaining different reasons why he finds Dyrnify as town. Funny how he was SO CONFIDENT in the fact that Dyrnify was Obv Town but he had to do a reread and recheck his notes just to come up with reasons why Dyrnify is town. Which even here is flawed in two ways.

1) His first point about rhetoric and distancing being common behavior for newbies regardless of alignment is not a reason why he is town. It would be a reason why he would be a null read. Because he even admits it's something that newbies do regardless of alignment.

2) Saying posts come off as "genuine" is purely based on gut so there's nothing "strong" about a gut town read. And should not be indicative as to why we believe him that Dyrnify is town. It's the equivalent of "You guys should totally trust my gut, because I am so obviously town. I know because I got a town PM, why don't you believe me?!"

@nacho: My scumread on you is because you are playing this game by poking ever so slightly at each player/issue and waiting for one of them to catch steam. You don't seem to be pushing any of your own reads, but instead are trying to pick issues that are agreeable to the rest of the players. You also will do this thing where you take someone else's case/read and add to it to try to get that player moving in a particular direction (i.e. that their scum read is obvscum).

if you guys need something more concrete to vote on, look how Nacho's read on DYR goes 180:

Spoiler: irrelevant part of the post

VOTE: Nachomamma8, cause they are the only person I have played with before.

HI, NACHO!

Hello. Ready to lynch scum day one again? Good.

I will ask all of you a small series of questions to gauge where we are all coming from. There really isn't a wrong answer to any of these questions. This is just a way to break the ice.

Break the ice and... delay the actual game from beginning. Question 1 is nice for getting to know people, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other threads on site if you want to meet people and find out why they play. Question 2 is... useless, obviously. 3 is also useless. Of course everyone trusts their own reads instead of their own unless someone else is convincing or not. None of these help with scumhunting, all of these add useless things to my thread. Please don't do random questions ever again pretty pretty please. These were less anti-town than they usually are, but that doesn't mean they are good

I'll say this now, i'm a vanilla town.
Whether i'm lying or not is up to you.
But if something doesn't add up, then SOMEONE did lie.

Mmmm... don't do this. If you are lying as town, then your PR claim won't be believed down the road, which is a very, very bad thing, since you would probably be forced to claim when a majority of the town finds you scummy anyways. If you are telling the truth as town, then you're basically saying "hey guys, I make a perfectly good mislynch! Don't kill me!" if they paranoid of you being a PR, they will rolecop you. They will not kill you. If you are mafia, this just brings the spotlight to you.

If i gain nothing, then it doesn't really matter whether i do it or not.
Whats to loose?

If you gain nothing, you probably don't want to do it. You can never really gauge consequences until they are hitting you in the face in most scenarios.

I understand how random questions can be a stupid thing and basically force people to post for the sake of posting. But is that really so bad early on in the game? (thats a serious question)

Yes it is. The opening of games is extremely important, and RQS makes them a lot more muddled, a lot less advantageous for town. If you get the game started early and you don't give scum time to get comfortable, then things get interesting. For example, I normally would call Doctor scum for avoiding things and posting crap (I still probably will), but for now, I don't really know whether he is newbie who doesn't know where to start and so goes with answering random questions, or whether he is scum coasting.

I really like

em+d and

Dyr for town.

And yeah, gonna vote Doc anyways.

Vote: TheDoctor

Spoiler: irrelevant

I see the vote for Doc cause he answered the random Q's and posting crap, but I'm wondering why. A lot of us answered those random q's (which I think is what you're referencing as posting crap), was there other crap he posted or something other than the answering of the random questions that makes him more scummy? Cause if it's just for answering those questions that could be a lot of people.

It wasn't the answering questions that set me off, it was more that he did absolutely nothing else with it. The fact that he didn't respond to the page one VT claim tells me that he hasn't read, but if he hasn't read, then how did he know to answer those RQS questions? More likely than not, he was looking for something to post, found the random questions, answered them, and stopped reading. That tells me he's just posting to get by, which makes him likelier scum than not.

If you lynch say on D1, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance getting town. Now N1, a town will always be killed. So by lynching eveyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1.
Now i know that eliminating scum is how you win the game for town. But can't that be said as keeping as many townies alive?

If you lynch on Day 2, you have a chance of getting scum, which is great but you also have a chance of getting town. Now N2, a town will always be killed. So, by lynching everyday, you increase the chance of losing 2 town compared to only loosing 1. So, it's optimal never to lynch because then we never lose 2 town!
...but that's not how it works. We have three chances to hit scum before we lose. No lynching D1 basically says that fuck it, we're obviously going to win this game so we need a handicap, let's do this with only two chances to hit scum instead. In fact, everytime we no lynch when there are an odd number of players alive, we're essentially throwing away one of our chances for absolutely no reason. So yeah, we want to lynch pretty much every day. Exception would be if there are 6 players alive and 2 scum left OR 4 players alive and 1 scum left and there isn't a confirmed town around. Then you might want to no lynch so you would have the minimum amount of suspects, but only then.

So what you're saying that it's a bad move if i am town or scum. Hence just a bad move altogether?

Precisely.

Why?
Am i really to close to see exactly whats so town about them?

Dyr

is being aggressive, targetting something that he regards to be scummy and locking on tight. While he does that, he's also looking around, criticizing people, searching for the other scum.

I find that pretty town.

Em+p is more of a tonal read, but the conscious creating of bandwagons to get people closer to a lynch is pretty cool, pretty cool.

I would like elaboration as to why theres a wagon on the doctor and why empdear is town. I see dry and xegarus as town. Don't know about nacho. He wan this chummy in our last game. *Wasnt

Really? Pretty sure I buddied the hell out of camn last game until I thought she was scum.

dyr

, xeg, em+p, you, smash

townreads

doctor scumread
preference of katiekatt over om

and then out of nowhere:

Unvote, Vote: em+p_dear

I don't mind dyr votes.

Now, in this ONE post, nacho VOTES em+p_dear who he had as a town read not so long before this vote, AND claims that he is fine with dyr votes, another one of his town reads. the em+p_dear 180 might be an even stronger case but I haven't looked at that yet. My guess is Nacho was trying to spin his em+p townread into a lynch candidate, but when that didn't take steam and he saw the dyr wagon coming, he started laying out the groundwork for him to be able to jump onto it once it was time.

In the meantime, Nacho,

who's scum?

Current thoughts are

em+p and dyrnify

, but they don't work as a team. Myko, Om, and CF are all pretty strong townreads.

Spoiler: irrelevant

If you're so convinced that I've been scum since Post #1 RQS, why isn't your vote on me? For someone so convinced you sure are struggling to find the gumption to vote me. Are you waiting to hear support from the other players first before you try and proceed with a lynch? Seems like you're not willing to take the leap on my wagon if it's not already backed by popular opinion first. You wouldn't need that if you weren't worried about drawing suspicion to yourself.

Soo any suspicions on anyone but me? Or is this a classic case of tunneling 101?

Ping.
Myko has been talking about different suspects, has been voting different suspects. Him not having the balls to vote you is an odd point, and it seems like you're trying to play a "vote me, I dare you" game which isn't a game townies play.

You were so sure that kittie was scum and made a good case against her and then all of the sudden, she's not so suspicious anymore.

Mostly due to her leaving post. I got her to take a position, got her to give reads, and she ended up going after a target that really wasn't that popular at all, which was not a reaction i expected if she felt pressured at all. i wanted to see an additional post to see how she would handle cf's treatment of her vote, but no luck there.

Is this just because of the data the wagon gives or is there another reason?

I've been a bit aggressive with your wagons because I won't be able to read you worth shit if you don't do something, and getting that wagon on you is the quickest way to get there.[/spoiler]

As for Majiffy (that's Xeg's replacement, right?) I began to see him as innocent when other people began accusing me of scum. As smash pointed out, I was passive about it and instead of flat out asking people why they suspected me, I went back and reread my old posts and saw a lot of the same things Xeg wrote in his posts. I said some things that were stupid/suspicious, and from an objective point of view, I seemed wishy-washy and easily persuaded/discouraged by others. Initially, these were the very reasons I suspected Xeg, but in comparison, I found that I did them all as well. The more people suspected me, the more I reread my posts and the less scum/more clueless noob I began to see in him.

I like this reasoning a lot.

here, nacho starts agreeing with emp who he just said, EARLIER IN THIS POST, that he thought was scum, another 180. +scum for nacho

Spoiler: irrelevant

Could someone play middle man for me since Mykonian is going to do the whole "I'm not talking to you! *plugs ears*" strategy. All I need is for someone not named Smashbard to ask the exact same questions I am asking, since so long as he feels I'm scum he's going to refuse to answer any of them.

mykonian is a more thoughtful player than you think he is

Unvote. Vote: Nacho.

We're not getting anywhere having everyone split within three wagons. Obviously my reasons for suspecting Emp Dear are not convincing enough to everyone else, so yes, I'm compromising with two of my town reads rather than the Dyrnify Wagon because nobody can give me a straight answer as to why Dyrnify would hammer as scum on Day 1.

because he didn't see your intent to hammer
because there weren't any scum on the wagon and he was getting antsy
because he suspected doctor of being a power role and didn't want to give him time to actually claim

Unvote, Vote: Dyrnify

I thought emp handled my pressure really well. Interestingly enough, the Xegar read that I didn't even mean to ask for in the first place is what's giving me the strongest townread on the slot; it makes a lot of sense that emp would find him town after she was called out for doing certain things and saw Xegar doing those same things. Dyr, on the other hand, has really fallen off since Day 1, which I find pretty fucking suspicious. I thought that if he was scum, he had a pretty good day 1, but today he's not really pushing anyone and only voting emp when it's based on his survival. Also found smash's vote on me pretty interesting and would like for him to confirm that he is voting me using Om's and CF's logic.

he forgot to vote dyr in #399 after giving us an awe inspiring performance about why dyr should be lynched, so he corrects for the mistake in #400. He backtracks on his EMP read out of nowhere in this same post, after forgetting to indicate why he all of the sudden likes EMP in #399.

tl;dr

Nacho = scum

btw, i will switch my vote back to Nacho in a heartbeat, as soon as one other player switches to nacho I will switch too, i had to change over to smash because I was worried about the dyr mislynch

Makes an overly convoluted case against Nacho to make it seem like he's scumhunting Nacho. Mentioning once again discouragement of any attempts at Nacho "laying the ground work" for a Dyrnify wagon, and then finishing off his multi-quote wall with yet another intent to compromise on his lynch target so long as he has other players support FIRST. Which is an extremely scummy thing to do WITHOUT the mountain of evidence that exposes him as Dyrnify's scum partner.

Icing on the cake is TheTrollie ONCE AGAIN stating that he only switched to me because he's worried about a Dyrnify "mislynch".

His entire motivation going into this game after his initial read through has been "Save dyrnify from any and all suspicions. And call everyone who thinks he's scum, scummy to induce fear through aggressive play."

Busted.

vry good. thnx. now u wanna explain why your posting so bad as town?

Admission that he knows Nacho was town the whole time.

VOTE: nacho
L–1 no one hammer without claiming intent

Sets up the hammer for his buddy knowing full well that Dyrnify has an itchy trigger finger.

shit

Feigns surprise.

doctors be on me tonight

Self preservationist tactic that ONLY scum use unless there is a reason to actually save your life as town, I.E. Power Role. CF Riot was the cop, so we know TheTrollie has no power role to fakeclaim now. Since he wanted protection, he selfishly requested his own life be more important than anyone elses despite not having a power role. Town DO NOT DO THIS. At least in my experience. Especially Vanilla Town that have no reason to be protected. This is probably the most damning evidence of TheTrollie being scum individually, outside of his constant defense of his scumbuddy.

That is until the start of today, where he "conveniently" decides to buss his partner to try and solidify himself as town. Dyrnify's quickhammers have outlived their usefulness to TheTrollie and he needs the town cred QUICK.

He will try to use the same aggressive tactics he has used since the start of his replacing in to prevent any of you from voting for him. He will scream and shout and when that fails to deter suspicion he will sarcastically dismiss any legitimate reason to vote for him.

Don't fall for it. Even if Dyrnify should be today's lynch, do not allow TheTrollie any town cred for bussing his partner. Not after how EXTREMELY PERSISTENT he was in defending Dyrnify from any and all suspicions Day 2. He aggressively switched between myself and Nacho because he was so afraid of a Dyrnify lynch. The only reasons he didn't push so hard on an Emp Dear lynch is because he obviously has been trying to take down the most pro-town players in the game one by one so that he can take control of the game and win it for his team.

So that required Nacho to be lynched, CF Riot to be killed and his partner to be bussed for the additional town cred after Nacho so emphatically declared that Dyrnify was scum for taking his lynch bait. Too bad you spent so much energy defending Dyrnify Day 2, because now you've got so much egg on your face we'll be making omelettes at your gallows.

Vote: TheTrollie

[Smashbard]

I agree to that but you're missing what I'm actually saying, the very fact that you couldn't be one of his possible Cop targets (Me, Em or Xeg) means you're likely scum over all three of them by PoE if one of the Dry and Smash flipped town.

uhhhh...(1) where did Xeg come from in there (2) no, because he only investigated ONE of you, meaning the other two are still just as likely to be scum as I am.

CF Riot & Xegarus were both accused of being scum with Xegar buddying up to CF Riot. It is very likely that CF Riot investigated Xegarus Night 1 because CF Riot never once espoused suspicion of Xegarus/Mykonian. So it is very likely he got an innocent from Mykonian.

We CAN'T AFFORD to consider scenarios where somebody could flip town at this point. With 6 alive, if we mislynch here with still two scum alive, it becomes a shot in the dark where the Doctor/Jailkeeper (assuming he's not lynched) deciding whether or not we get another Day phase. Which virtually means game over.

If anybody is going to place a vote, you need to be ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that you are voting for scum. No excuses.

@Dry, I saw you reading this thread, why are you avoiding to post?

Or are you waiting out to see where wind blows and quick hammer again?

Honestly? I decided way back in D1 that I was gonna play this by kicking the hornets nest and seeing what happens. I am just enjoying watching everyone scurry around.

Only scum preface an answer to a question with the word "Honestly?". It's the liars tell. If someone has to tell you "To be honest" before making a statement, that would assume that they have been or were lying previously. Or even could be lying right now and use the "Honestly" pretext to make it seem like what they were about to say is truthful.

You're busted son. I'm only lynching your scumbuddy right now because he's too dangerous to keep around while you're just an easy lynch at this point thanks to you falling for Nachos bait.

[Smashbard]

I agree to that but you're missing what I'm actually saying, the very fact that you couldn't be one of his possible Cop targets (Me, Em or Xeg) means you're likely scum over all three of them by PoE if one of the Dry and Smash flipped town.

uhhhh...(1) where did Xeg come from in there (2) no, because he only investigated ONE of you, meaning the other two are still just as likely to be scum as I am.

A PoE from my spot keeps you more into gray area then other two since that not guilty result was not on you.
Xeg is there 'cause of his P1 VT claim and if I put myself in Cop shoes, he is likely to be someone I would like to check out for exactly situations like this. And I can't eliminate him since CF never wanted or voted Xeg slot on D2. So, yes, your earlier statement implying that ''tomorrow it will be one of smash or Dry and Myko are the ones we will be looking at'', is not something I'm agreeing on atm.

All this said and done, lets keep this for tomorrow as I'm 99% sure we have both our scums nailed here.

@Dry, I saw you reading this thread, why are you avoiding to post?

Or are you waiting out to see where wind blows and quick hammer again?

Honestly? I decided way back in D1 that I was gonna play this by kicking the hornets nest and seeing what happens. I am just enjoying watching everyone scurry around.

Ok, you seriously need to go down.

Dyrynify

Someone hammer this scum.

Pedit: Wow! smash is certainly making it interesting. Let's see you voting your scumbuddy Smash, are you up for it?

Ok, you're next on tonight's ISO's.

1) Your vote is invalid. As it's just a bolded name.

2) You're pushing for someone to hammer Dyrnify, when even if your vote was Valid that would only be 2 votes. And asking me to hammer would only bring him to L-1. You're rushing for this day to be over with, without even doing proper math.

Are you bussing? Are you TheTrollies scumpartner trying to quicklynch Dyrnify for gg?

Those are valid questions by the way.

Given my analysis above I find it VERY hard to believe that you could be town if you just choose to ignore all that evidence of a Trollie/Dyr scumteam just to keep chirping on about how I'm scum just by process of elimination because you've got nothing to go off of.

[Smashbard]

It's clear that Dyrnify has completely given up trying to defend himself, so he's obviously scum that just has nowhere to go. So I expected him to just ignore my Trollie analysis.

TheTrollie did what I predicted he would do, and sarcastically brush off my entire case without even attempting to defend himself. Because he knows there is no defense against me catching him red handed in his scumminess.

But that doesn't explain OM. Who I THOUGHT would of been capable of at least intelligently disagreeing with what I had to say, rather than just dismissing me entirely and continuing to chirp the Smashbard/Dyrnify scumteam that has no basis on it whatsoever, at least with my involvement.

So now you guys are just muddying the fucking water.

I am announcing intent to hammer Dyrnify, but not before we've had a proper chance to discuss things. We NEED to know our course of action tomorrow 100%. I'm not letting this day end before that happens.

[Smashbard]

Who says smash will hammer? He wont. He will talk someone else into doing it for him. He does not want to be the hammer on the 3rd mislynch.

Especially considering the merry hell we all give the people who mislynch, because of me.

Funny, considering I announced intent to hammer TheDoctor when you took the lynch into your own hands.

Then you quicklynched Nacho while I was still in semi V/LA so I never even had a chance to respond to how quickly that wagon formed.

And now you claim that I have been orchestrating lynches and having people hammer for me when you've been the one derp-hammering your way to failtown since Day 1?

Please. You're the sole reason why we've mislynched twice in a row so far. Because as you say you "wanted to kick the hornets nest and watch us scurry around".

And YOU want to act all righteous and indignant because your word doesn't mean shit to the town? You did this to YOURSELF, scum. But I'm not lynching you until I figure out who your partner is. You WANT me to lynch you fast so that your scumbuddy can still surf in murky waters and possibly steal the win. That's why you're being all anti-town and passive aggressive towards everyone. You want to self buss quickly so that we don't take the time to figure out who you're in cahoots with.

Which is why I'm suspecting Om more and more. Originally you were such a straight shooter but now you're purposefully muddying the waters when everyone except for myself already wants a Dyrnify/Smashbard lynch for the next two days. Since you refused to answer my first two questions here's another one.

If Dyrnify and Myself are your ONLY possible scumreads and TheTrollie, Mykonian and Emp Dear are all confirmed town in your eyes, why are you so hesitant to put Dyrnify at L-2 when according to your reads it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for him to quicklynched by scum because everyone else is town?

[Smashbard]

If you don't answer that question I'm parking my God Damned vote on you until end game or until you answer it.

[Smashbard]

again, anger and insults in place of rational discussion. You should really learn not to take the game so seriously.

I'd rather take the game seriously and try to find scum than play like yourself and go "Derp Derp, I'm gonna quickhammer all the time and then get all offended when people call me scummy for it and don't want to hear what I have to say, Herp Derp".

[Smashbard]

If you don't answer that question I'm parking my God Damned vote on you until end game or until you answer it.

ur not even voting Om right now.

gotcha,
there you go
lynch dyr today
Smash tomorrow
win games

It's called a threat, hence why I said if he DIDN'T answer my questions I'm parking my vote on him.

Reading is tech.

[Smashbard]

nope. Talking to Smash. Your insulting behavior is pathetic. There is a big difference between taking the game seriously, and being an insulting prick. Get over yourself. IT IS A FUCKING FORUM GAME, NOT THE U.N. From this point on, rage all you like, but I won't be responding to any post of yours, and will drop any game you are in that I join. I refuse to game with you or your ilk. I have much better things to do.

I wont hammer myself; I detest suicide as the cowards way out. I dug this grave, but someone else gets to put me in it.

I'd rather not play mafia with someone who would rather ruin the spirit of the game lurking all day and then quickhammering the second anyone gets to L-1 and expect people to NOT be upset with him.

That's all I'm saying left in the matter.

I'm glad somebody else beyond myself is finally seeing TheTrollie as scummy. Maybe not for the reasons I've pointed out, but at least somebody is still thinking rather than just going "Choo Choo! On with the Dyr/Smashbard lynches, no other discussion required! Choo!"

[Smashbard]

myko, i meant end the day.

but fine, fine....

UNVOTE: dyr

I forgot about the no-kill day 1

@mod can PRs target themselves?

On Page 1 the example PM Roles specifically state for the Doc and Jailkeeper that they cannot target themselves.

[Smashbard]

What good would it do for the Doctor/Jailkeeper to claim? To give Mafia a clear ticket as to who they should kill tonight?

Best case scenario we have a Jailkeeper that can state who they intend to Target, so that way if a Kill goes through then we have at least one 100% confirmed townie after the Jailkeeper dies. Or if a kill doesn't go through it might be as good as a Cop Guilty result.

But when I was scum in that newbie game with Nacho I pulled a gambit where we had a claimed Jailkeeper and he announced each target he would protect and I chose to No Kill during the night phases in order to frame people into mislynches rather than pulling the trigger on the Jailkeeper until I was sure I could win in Lylo.

So even that wouldn't be ideal. I know it's farfetched but I literally won that game as scum due to that gambit. It could easily happen.

I can't see any good scenarios in which a Doctor should claim because then they just die tonight and we get no information based on who they protected because the Mafia would officially no longer have to sweat a Kill going through.

How about we collectively suggest who the Doc/Jailkeeper SHOULD target? I'm pretty sure it's universally agreed that Mykonian is town. That way if the Doc/JK follows those instructions (I'm assuming Mykonian is not it because he's the one calling for a claim rather than just claiming himself) then we can be sure that Mykonian stays alive and the scum still won't know who the Doc/JK is, so they have to make a shot in the dark that is not Mykonian to try and find the Doc/JK.

Of course, if Mykonian is scum I think we're just fucked in general because he's not getting lynched this game. Dyrnify, TheTrollie and myself will be dead before Mykonian is considered.

[Smashbard]

So bard, who is Trolli's partner according to you if Dry is town?

I'm not considering Dyrnify as town because like I said, you have to be 100% sure who the scum are at this point. I can't afford to let you or anybody else muddy up my reads with uncertainty by considering that anybody else could be scum beyond TheTrollie/Dyrnify.

If we mislynch, I'm fully convinced we lose. I'm not counting on a 25% chance that the Doctor/Jailkeeper will call it right and give us another day phase.

If I HAD to choose based on a wildly improbable scenario that there's a mislynch AND the Doc/JK survives AND makes the right choice for protection, I would say you. Your and TheTrollies pressuring of me to vote for Dyrnify on the ridiculous off chance that Dyrnify will self hammer and end the day phase and possibly the game without waiting for input from Mykonian and Emp Dear was extremely scummy to me.

I know you were apparently trying some crazy last minute "feign voting". But the only way that strategy makes sense to me is if you somehow know Dyrnify is not scum and were trying to trap scum into voting for him thinking they could get away with a quick lynch.

Do you actually believe Dyrnify is scum or are you using him as lynch bait to try and fish out who you REALLY feel are scum?

[Smashbard]

What good would it do for the Doctor/Jailkeeper to claim? To give Mafia a clear ticket as to who they should kill tonight?

it confirms 2 town

I think I get it...

If it's a Doctor claim, then whoever they protected Night 1 obviously was targeted by the Mafia and is instantly town.

The only flaw I see in this is that if it's a Jailkeeper claim, the protection could of just as easily just targeted Mafia and prevented a kill that way. But that could tell us also who to lynch...but it's still a shot in the dark, because the Jailkeeper could of just protected a Vanilla Townie...

Aha!

Doc/JK claims. Claims who they targeted Night 1. Two confirmed townies. We No Lynch today, lose the protector role but still get another day phase with a confirmed townie, possibly two if the Doc/JK announces who they protect tonight? Is that what's going on?

[Smashbard]

But what if they protected CF Riot Night 1? Then we basically gain no information at all, besides who's dying tonight. Because the power role just outed themselves for nothing...

[Smashbard]

Mykonian was mentioning something about the possibility of a No Lynch, and also mentioned something about the Doc/JK claiming. So I thought he was trying to get people to put the pieces together and figure out what he was trying to propose without him having to directly say it.

In short, I confused myself with too many WIFOMY possibilities because I thought I saw a glimmer of hope that didn't result in us needing a 100% sure scum flip today. Because at this point if the scumteam isn't Dyrnify + Anyone then I don't know what to do.

[Smashbard]

Unvote.

I guess we're just waiting until somebody claims Doc or JK. If that doesn't happen by the time Dyrnify is prodded for replacement, I'm just going to vote for him. Because I don't see anybody else posting anything new and this game is screeching to a halt because of it.

[Smashbard]

Nobody at all took away why smash would absolutely not vote dyr last time. And suddenly he sheeps nacho. The guy he was just voting. stinks stinks stinks of bus, esspecially as none of the others on the wagon are scum (emp, me and nacho).

You forgot to mention the part where Nacho educated me on reasons why Dyrnify would still Hammer on Day 1 as scum rather than wait for me to hammer. Which was the ONLY thing preventing me from voting Dyrnify Day 2 AT ALL. I stated that multiple times.

After that, I pretty much stayed on the Dyrnify wagon the rest of the day, despite the fact that everyone thinks I'm scum and would never lynch him so long as I'm on the wagon. Because I've been suspicious that he was scum ever since his hammer on Day 1.

Which is really fucking stupid by the way. If I were scum, I could just hop on the wagon of whoever my scumbuddy was and you guys would avoid that lynch like the plague because you're so convinced that I'm scum. Force a Mislynch through because you guys would refuse to vote for whoever I vote for, and then scum would win the game flawlessly.

Yeah yeah WIFOM, whatever. If you're looking for a perfect lynch where all town vote for one scum with no bussing involved, you're going to need my vote. Period.

[Smashbard]

You guys can hem and haw and flip flop as to whether or not you think I'm scum with Dyrnify, Dyrnify is scum with Om, Dyrnify is scum with TheTrollie, I'm scum with Om, I'm scum with TheTrollie, Om is scum with TheTrollie, whatever you like. Dyrnify is scum. So scummy he refuses to even post in this game anymore because he's caught so bad. You can either lynch scum with me or run away from the wagon like lemmings and hope that Dyrnify busses whoever it is you think is scummier than him.

Vote: Dyrnify

[Smashbard]

You guys can hem and haw and flip flop as to whether or not you think I'm scum with Dyrnify, Dyrnify is scum with Om, Dyrnify is scum with TheTrollie, I'm scum with Om, I'm scum with TheTrollie, Om is scum with TheTrollie, whatever you like. Dyrnify is scum. So scummy he refuses to even post in this game anymore because he's caught so bad. You can either lynch scum with me or run away from the wagon like lemmings and hope that Dyrnify busses whoever it is you think is scummier than him.

Vote: Dyrnify

what do you find to be unconvincing in Myko & My arguments for Scum-Om?

Did I say you were unconvincing? I've mentioned that Om's recent change in behavior in trying to muddle the waters at the last minute when beforehand he had almost everyone as town reads is suspicious. So yes, he could be scum.

So just to make my analysis as clear as possible.

Dyrnify is scum. 100%. I'm not allowing anyone to deter me from my biggest scumread anymore.

TheTrollie has a good chance at being scumpartners with Dyrnify due to the fact that he has been defending Dyrnify from suspicion since the second he replaced in. Even today, he only voted for Dyrnify after WARNING everybody else not to vote for him "To avoid a quickhammer". And only after that has now went back to trying to push any wagon, any wagon at all that doesn't have to be Dyrnify. Which is why he keeps flip flopping between saying I'm Dyrnify's scumpartner or Om is Dyrnify's scumpartner. Or even now saying that Om and I are scumpartners. All just to avoid having to lynch Dyrnify. The more he defends Dyrnify from being todays lynch, the scummier he looks.

Om has a good chance at being scumpartners with Dyrnify due to the fact that he has stated that Dyrnify was one of his strongest town reads, and refused to get off the Nacho wagon all day yesterday. And now that it's do or die time, Om has continually skated the issue of a Dyrnify wagon, while not really offering up his own opinion as to who should be lynched, rather, he has tried to commit suicide just to avoid lynching Dyrnify.

Both are extremely intent on making sure that Dyrnify stays alive, for whatever God awful reason. I don't know what it is, because neither of them are stating that Dyrnify is a town read. So I can buy either one of them as being Dyrnify's scumpartner.

[Smashbard]

And yet your vote is on neither of us.

Pardon my impatience, but what the hell is everyone waiting for at this point?

Mykonian says he's convinced that Om is the only possible scumpartner of Dyrnify, implying that he believes they are the scumteam.

TheTrollie is ACTING like he's convinced that Om and Dyrnify are scum. Without the conviction of a vote.

Om says that Dyrnify and myself are scum. Without the conviction of a vote.

Emp Dear is being very cryptic about who she suspects, but seems to agree with me that Dyrnify is scum.

Is there a reason why we are more satisfied splitting the remaining town into two wagons when literally every single one of us thinks that Dyrnify is scum, while only most of are are convinced of Om's scumminess (Emp Dear and Dyrnify being the two people remaining unsure)?

Does it really matter in what order we lynch them?

Mykonian: Do you believe that Om is Dyrnify's only possible scumpartner, but not that Dyrnify is Om's only scumpartner? That's the only thing I can think of that's holding you back from lynching Dyr at this point.

[Smashbard]

I've wanted to lynch Dyrnify since the end of Day 1.

After stewing over Nacho's death during Night 2, I decided I would do an ISO of TheTrollie because of how much his actions stank Day 2 and his justification for wanting all Docs on him. And I still feel in my gut that he is scum. But like I said, I have no choice but to believe that he is town because everyone else believes he's town. I'll have a nice "I told you so" moment post game if TheTrollie ends up being scum though.

But none of that has ever changed the fact that Dyrnify has always been scum in my eyes since his quickhammer. I'm not letting him get away with it twice.

[Smashbard]

(Not dead)

@Om- Everyone hated him that day for the whole page 1 RC and his vote on smash/vote reveal. I'm not quite sure how to word it...I just think that if the mafia kill was blocked there's a good chance a power rule either new or took a chance that Xeg was town. The mafia may also have seen his RC as "Vanilla Townie" as (not just a bad move like the rest of the town) but suspicious. They may have suspected him for a doctor or jailer or whatever trying to be safe as a normal and figure they have nothing to lose if he really was vanilla townie. A rather farfetched theory, but still...

Is that why you tried to kill Xeg last night?

I am assuming you are talking about this part of this post?

Anyway

1) Yes, I am town.

2) If this came from Town: it would be in the context of Om asking one of those "Are you scum?" kind of questions. I mean, Emp Dear was posting a lot of WIFOM speculation as to how Mafia and a protection role could come to the same conclusions to target Xegarus Night 1, which we now know was Emp Dear breadcrumbing. So Om could of been just throwing out one of those kind of nothing questions like "Are you scum?" by asking "Is that why you targeted Xegarus last night?"

Om hasn't really defended against the case at all. So it's probably a big scumslip. Considering the fact that by process of elimination Om HAS to be scum with Dyrnify (Only because I'm dropping TheTrollie), it's obvious who the scum are. Hence my confusion as to why everyone's still being so hesitant to move forward.

[Smashbard]

myko why did u just vote dyr

im not voting dyr...

The only way I'm moving from the Dyrnify wagon is if they both agree on an Om lynch. But at least I'll be willing to make the switch.

Why are you not willing to do the same?

[Smashbard]

They as in Mykonian & Emp Dear. As the only confirmed towns I'd be a lot more comfortable joining them on a wagon than Mykonian/Trollie. Because I just think Mykonians wrong about you. You've been pretty stuck on protecting Dyrnify all game.

Do you have a no bussing policy as scum or what?

[Smashbard]

This is hilarious.

[Smashbard]

So Trollie, you refuse to vote Dyrnify, but you don't want to vote Om or myself either. Why is that?

Om, you're not voting for anyone either, and you're pretty much #2 scum suspect at the moment. Do you wanna just claim scum and get it over with or are you going to vote for someone? Because you're sure not asking anymore questions to try and figure stuff out, so make up your mind on what you're doing please.

Dyrnify, I see you're still ignoring this game. Cool. How's about placing a vote before you go to help get things rolling? Or you know, keep hiding. It seems to be working. Because nobody wants to lynch you despite all the shit you've pulled this game.

Mykonian, you moved to Dyrnify because Emp Dear is leaning Dyrnify, what made you move back to Om? Are you doing the Smashbard thing and just saying "Fuck it, I'm voting for who I think is scum whether everyone likes it or not?"

Emp Dear, what else do you need in order to make up your mind? The game is stalling and Mykonian/TheTrollie are durdling around switching wagons like underwear during a bad case of dysentery. Can we just have you place a vote on your top scumread and get the ball rolling here? I don't think we're going to stabilize on a wagon without you.

[Smashbard]

Dyrnify you can cut the crap now. If you're town we've lost the game. Because scum are going to kill Emp Dear with 4 alive that's 2 to 2.

If you're scum I'd greatly appreciate you just giving up your scumpartner at this point. I don't need to deal with a bunch of WIFOMY bullshit of which it is between Om and TheTrollie.

[Smashbard]

You are confirmed scum in my mind.

I'm telling you to cut the crap because you're still flailing like you're town suggesting that I am scum with Om.

So, I said IF you are town we've already lost the game. If you'd been paying attention we have a Doctor, not a Jailkeeper. Scum CANNOT BE BLOCKED. WE LOSE.

But your behavior post hammer is perfectly suited to a scum flip. Because you're still trying to sew confusion, directing traffic as to who we should lynch tomorrow.

Telling me you know there WILL be a tomorrow. Which means you're scum. Just fucking admit it.

[Smashbard]

I don't even care if you reveal your scumpartner. It's probably TheTrollie since you keep trying to direct traffic to Om or myself. But seriously, keeping up this charade of being town is really annoying. You're dead. You can give up now. Just say "Ha, you got me guys, good game" etc. etc.

[Smashbard]

I'm of course, ok with releasing the Mafia Quicktopic.

Eh, only things I would probably improve on as a Mod: More flavor in the write ups. I was expecting a little more to go off of with a Pokemon based set up. Other than that, probably just more frequent vote counts. I wasn't sure if you did one once a day or not, but it felt like it was a long time in between vote counts.

Two newbie games, both times played with Nacho, both times I was scum. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here. Heh.

Like I told Om in the Quick Topic, I'm not sure I learned anything this game on how to improve as a player. It seemed like every single post I made was a scumtell to Mykonian and I couldn't see why or how it was even possible that every little thing I said was scummy. I was trying to emulate my play as town as much as possible. So that's a little weird.

Either way I have to thank TheTrollie for his "All Docs On Me" gambit that allowed us to kill CF Riot, as we were sure that Emp Dear was gonna protect CF Riot otherwise. I would also like to thank Dyrnify for costing town the game with his two quickhammers and then lurking the rest of the game to make it easy to mislynch him in Mylo.

I know it sound snarky and maybe it's not fair because Om played very well and kept himself from suspicion until the very end. But honestly I don't think we could of done this without Trollies gambit or Dyrnify's hammers. The combined elements of having Nacho, Riot, Mykonian & Trollie all on the town side SHOULD have surely cost us the game.

Lessons learned, don't ever ever EVER quickhammer as town or ask protective roles to protect you if you're not a power role. lol.

[Smashbard]

Also, don't have so many damned experienced players taking up newbie slots in a newbie game. lol. I'm kidding but I mean sheesh. Guys like Myko, Nacho, Trollie & Riot should all be scumhunting in the big league games. Not causing newbs like myself to sweat bullets. lol.

[Smashbard]

I think I'm just going to active lurk my next few games regardless of my alignment to shake up my meta a little bit. People are getting too good at telling when I'm being protown and when I'm just posting fluffy bullshit. Either way though I've noticed that as either alignment I post too many walls and am too active.

Maybe if I step back and just let myself lurk through some games I can maintain my goal of surviving past Day 1 AND not feeling like I have to be Mr. Awesome Town every day.

[Smashbard]

After all, it seems like it's harder than hell for people to come to an agreement on lynching active lurkers, and those kind of players always make it to the end.

[Smashbard]

unless you are really terrible (and lets not name names, but

that guy

), a couple of days in a newbie game teach you everything it can teach you, really. Newbies are there to give you a bit of a feel for the game, but can't really teach you that much more. That's what happens soon enough in mini normals, mini themes or micros. You get to know people and that helps with getting better. It also helps just to get more real games under your belt, the more you play, the better you get.

And don't be nervous. You'd fit right in with the rest here.

Only problem is once you get invested in trying out the other games around the site, people expect you to know how to scumhunt and the whole "He's new" excuse doesn't mean a whole lot anymore because you were expected to cut your teeth and become a good player through the newbie games you were in.

That's pretty much the only reason I signed up for another newbie game after trying a Mini Theme, Mini Normal and Large Normal. Because I realized I still sucked horribly at catching scum and was paying for it dearly from players who expected better from me.

Players like myself are not ready for the big league games, so playing extra newbie games is perfectly fine until we "get" it.

[Smashbard]

I try to scumhunt the same way I scumhunt as town. Makes it really hard for people to make a meta case against me because well, I act the same in every game.

Unfortunately this tactic always makes me seem scummy regardless of alignment. And I still haven't figured out what I'm saying or how I say it that makes it so scummy in the first place.

I seem to do pretty well at talking myself out of a corner in clinch situations. I get aggressive in defending myself and people seem to like that and think it's town that I fight back cases against me point for point. Because unless someone's got a guilty investigation on you or something it's not too hard to discredit almost any logic whatsoever because at the end of the day, town can't be 100% sure that they are spot on without physical evidence of your guilt.

Unless your in games like this one where there was no case against me, just that everything I said was scummy. Which makes it pretty easy to fight back against because you can normally force someone into a debate by demanding a case be presented otherwise their suspicions mean nothing to you. Which people tend to also think is town.

I mean, if a guy can't even list why they think you are scummy in proper words, how do they expect the rest of the town to follow in your lynch?

[Smashbard]

It's not really an issue of knowing how to lie or even lying itself. You can be scum all game and never say a single lie, except for the obvious one that someone always asks by going "Are you scum?". Then you have to. But you don't really need to think hard about how to lie. Just play the game like you normally would as town with the added knowledge that you know who your scumpartner is, so you don't want to lynch them generally. Otherwise you can "scumhunt" everyone else to make believable mislynches.