Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[StubbsKVM]

Hello all.

UNVOTE:

Until I've caught up.

[StubbsKVM]

Just adding stuff through reading.

Antagon

^
gets called out for lurking, and when actually posting, adds nothing besides explaining backseat hunting.
First actual input at post 174. Congratulations.
That vote on Nacho was really bad.

champinoman

First actual post looks good.
That reads list (138) looks weird. "Everybody is scummy" and "Generic is leaning town" doesn't match.

Feel It

looks at other games to get a read on Gen_Wolf and says exactly what I think. Good.
seems like there's some suspicion on this guy. My gut says this is wrong.
Calling town "the town". That's a possible scumtell.

Fegelein

^
His reads worry me. Gen Wolf isn't scummy, but Nacho is?

Gen_Wolf

^
wants a hammer at post 20? And he's supposed to be SE?
Next post and he says he isn't serious. It's a reaction test. That's a crappy reaction test for a newbie game. Imagine all newbies agreeing and voting. That would have been bad.
Now he says his post was "clearly a joke". I don't agree, this is a newbie game. Asks why SE is different from being a complete newbie. Is this another joke?
His vote for Fegelin when Antagon and Nacho are under pressure makes up for something though. Looks like he's not choosing the easy way out by joining a wagon.

Generic

His first posts says he won't say anything yet. Weird.
Not liking his reaction to Nacho voting for him.
That reads post is very, very good. Town
Post 224 is good.

Miss Stranger

can't make up my mind about her in the early posts.
That large post looks like actual hunting and deserves some town credit. Lots of questions too.
Congrats on the pregnancy. Good luck! I can relate to how you feel. I have twins
Your posts are hard to analyse because of their length and massive quoting. I find myself getting distracted and skipping parts. I see you've taken a little offense at people commenting on them. If I wasn't catching up 10 pages, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it

Nachomamma8

*
Loving his first posts. This looks exactly like my first game with him, in which he was town.


Needless to say that I probably missed some parts. This took me a long time to read. I thought 10 pages was easy, but those posts were looooooooooooooooong.

[StubbsKVM]

now let's see what I posted here.

Antagon: I don't trust this guy at all. He adds nothing, but decides to put Nacho(who is a null-read on his list) at L-1 when things get dangerous.
Champino: I have a hard time reading him. I'll give him a scum lean, based on my gut feeling.
Feel It: Is actively scumhunting and posts stuff I generally agree with. I may have to reread on him on the L-1 situation, pretty sure I missed some points there.
Fegelein: that comment I put there was from one of the early pages. There's something about him that just doesn't feel right.
Gen Wolf: Those comments were pretty horrible. His being less active later on resulted in votes moving away. I'm not convinced he's town, but I will not chase him today.
Generic: Town. No point in explaining further.
Miss Stranger: Town. I like her commitment.
Nachomamma: His day 1 looks exactly like my earlier experience with him where he was town. Lynching this guy over meta? Who suggested this and why?

So: town to scum:

Generic
Miss Stranger
Feel It
Nachomamma
Gen Wolf
Champino
Fegelein
Antagon

VOTE: Antagon

[StubbsKVM]

at least James May was voting the right guy eh?

[StubbsKVM]

I would move champino up and push feel it way down, but otherwise have similar feelings to you there with that t/s list.

Nacho, what's you opinion of feel its posts around the L-1 votes on you and antagon?

Well that would make sense.

Like I said, I have a hard time reading champino. So must of it is just gut feeling.
And I'll try and reread on Feel It tomorrow. His behaviour on the last few pages had me confused, but I already spent so long catching up, that I don't want to do it right away

[StubbsKVM]

Just adding stuff through reading.

Antagon

^
gets called out for lurking, and when actually posting, adds nothing besides explaining backseat hunting.
First actual input at post 174. Congratulations.
That vote on Nacho was really bad.

Okay, then. Let's take a look at my logic:
>Put at L-1 during the crash
>James May wagon not going anywhere
>Obviously not going to support a lynch on myself, who is confirmed town to myself
>Vote Nacho
Would you prefer that I didn't even bother to try and self-voted? I'm not going to take a defeatist attitude just because I have a wagon on me. I will never fully accept my lynch and would vote Nacho even if I didn't think he was scum.
Why should it matter that the vote was seen as

opportunistic

? Would it have made a difference if I had voted Nacho earlier?
Should I have continued to park my vote on James May instead?

You shouldn't be worried of getting lynched if you're pro-town.
Voting for someone you don't think is scum to save yourself is the worst possible course of action. It will make you look bad and result in the rest of town being confused at your behaviour.
Not only will your first target likely be a mislynch. You will likely be lynched on day 2 anyway.

[StubbsKVM]

Aw, the post where Generic voted Antagon is also gone.

Eager to get rid of him?

You suspect Antagon and blame someone for wanting pressure on him?

Screw it, I'm not happy with the hand waving away if the claim at L-2, but I am feeling like its time to trust the gut.

vote nachomamma

How come exactly? I'm not convinced he's town but there's others around i find more suspicious.

Agreed.

Hmmm, well neither of them are voting on a bandwagon, Antagon is voting James May alone and Nacho is still voting Gen_wolf. I can't tell if they're busy or just not interested in the game. Not to put on panic mode, but time is getting short now and we'll have to make a decision on who to lynch pretty soon.

Yet you called Miss Stranger "eager to get rid of Antagon" just a few posts ago.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

So you now want to lynch Nacho, when just a few posts ago, you had others to find more suspicious?

In fact I'm so annoyed by that play,

unvote, vote antagon

antagon is now at L-1

What are you doing? You've changed your vote a hundred times we had enough pressure to get a real response out of nacho.

Why are you complaining? Wasn't Antagon higher on your suspicion list? Pressure him!

Well...
Finally found time to reread that part.
Some of that was already pointed out by Generic.


Feel it:
Why did you go off at Generic when he was adding pressure to one of your suspects?
Why did you want to hammer Nacho so soon?
Why did you call Miss Stranger "eager to get rid off Antagon" when you were obviously eager to end the day yourself?

Generic:
Sorry, as stated before, I had to read up on that part.

[StubbsKVM]

I'm a little unsure about how much of James May's posts to read into when looking at my read on StubbsKVM. Maybe someone would like to share their opinion on that if they have any good tips?

I think you should definitely keep James May's attitude in mind, especially if you thought he was scummy. If I am unable to change your mind by posting, then there is probably a reason for that. If your read was close to zero, you'll probably automatically forget them as the game goes on.

At least that's what I think.

[StubbsKVM]

Feel It: 0
Gen Wolf: -1
Nacho: 2

[StubbsKVM]

that was a hammer yes?

[StubbsKVM]

There's a number of possibilities there.

chkflip = Fegelein?

[StubbsKVM]

it's also possible a jailkeeper targeted the scum player
or the scum player could have targeted a bulletproof.

All speculation.

[StubbsKVM]

sorry,was slack end of day 1. Got plenty of time now. I was completely wrong about Anta so good job on that.

Any chance scum didnt NK on purpose as make sure it could not be linked to the scum team or is that unlikely?

Anything is possible. I don't think we should give it too much thought.

[StubbsKVM]

I agree with champino. I want to give the guy a chance. He's just replaced in, so deserves the chance to make up for his predecessors scummy behaviour.

[StubbsKVM]

I will be on V/LA from Saturday until Monday.

Noted.

-Vel

[StubbsKVM]

I'm back!

intent to hammer. You've had enough chance to post.

Mod, I thought Nacho was also on V/LA

I see a V/LA tag, now that you mention it, but I got no PM and can't find mention of it in thread. Prod stands.

-Vel

[StubbsKVM]

Just a quick addon: Generic's "Five to lunch" typo put a grin on my face.

[StubbsKVM]

If that guy flips town, I nominate him for worst town play ever.

[StubbsKVM]

[StubbsKVM]

Some decent analysis by Champino.
And a bad idea by Gen_Wolf

Feel it's reaction to chkflip's town flip feels a bit forced.

[StubbsKVM]

Gen Wolf's posts this day feel forced.

His excuse to wait for a hammer, which he has used on both day 1 and day 3, might have been valid, if he hadn't put chkflip at L-1 yesterday.

His obvtown read on Generic also seems to have vanished for no reason.

Also, his comment on how the case on Antagon was invalid also rises more suspicion.

Just ISOed Antagon, and he had only 1 town read: Gen Wolf.


So, I don't see any reason to keep Gen Wolf around really. Everything we have points at his direction.

[StubbsKVM]

I think claiming is unnecessary at this point. I don't want to out the PR's just yet. Especially because I feel we should lynch Gen Wolf, who has already claimed.

[StubbsKVM]

Yet I am the only one against a mass claim.

I'm also the only one connecting the dots between gen wolf and antagon.

I don't see what your tryin to do here Generic.

VOTE: Gen wolf

Because apparently I have forgotten

[StubbsKVM]

Strange how you didn't comment on the connection with antagon until now.

"It looks like an omgus but it isn't"
"I promise I'll flip town"

Just look bad to me.

I can only find connections between Antagon and you, so I see no reason not to follow up on it.

[StubbsKVM]

Only feel it and champ left.

Ms S is obvtown
Generic as well. I also don't think he would vote me if he was scum, he could have easily joined the wagon on you.
Nacho also town I think

The lack of nightkills bothers me though. Maybe we're just so far off, that they aren't making any kills.

Can you give me your reads too?

[StubbsKVM]

wolf?
I wouldn't want to Replace that slot.

[StubbsKVM]

Is replacing out a scumtell in this case?

[StubbsKVM]

My vote has been cast.

[StubbsKVM]

No. You better have :p

[StubbsKVM]

I'll be on V/LA for the entire weekend. Might pop in on Sunday(but don't count on it)

[StubbsKVM]

To be honest my vote on stubbs was reaction testing, he has been fine

, he was even the first to refuse the mass claim idea as he stated.

I still like the idea of a mass claim, but champion made some good points of concern, and stubbs simply wasn't happy to do it.

unvote

But gen wolf you were opportunistic there. Im not flip flopping votes at this stage but you are a prime candidate for my vote right now.


And back to the nacho discussion. Champ, you make a good point about a late analysis post, its not well placed at the end when we have already got a lynch choice in sight. He is most definitely one I gave a clearance to based purely on seeming to be an active scum hunter.

He was late to the antagon vote... hmmm...

My order is:
Scummiest -

Stubbs

Gen wolf/mr flay
Feel it
Nacho
Champ
Miss stranger

- Towniest

Generic? First you vote me, when I call you out for it, you say it's a reaction test and that I've been fine. And now you put me at the top of your scumlist? What the hell are you doing?

[StubbsKVM]

I'm still not convinced massclaim is a good idea, but if everybody wants it...well I don't really have a choice, do I?

Scum

Mr Flay
Feel It
Champino
Generic
Nacho
Miss Stranger

Town

I'm sorry Mr Flay. Your predecessor has ruined your slot for me. You can say whatever you want basically. There's no way I'll ever trust you enough to keep you around for long.

[StubbsKVM]

VT

It means scum tried to kill nacho
Or
Nacho is scum.

Unless scum made no kills 2 buggy's in a row

[StubbsKVM]

Buggy's=kills

Damn phone

[StubbsKVM]

SCUM

champinoman
Mr. Flay
Feel It
Generic
Stubbs
Miss Stranger

TOWN

I'm fine with massclaim with the caveat that the tracker should claim VT unless the tracker sees some information that doesn't mesh with results OR Doctor claims first. One of the combinations we need to watch out for is Tracker/One-Shot Bulletproof which would be really bad to massclaim, and this means that we'll be pretty set even if we have this setup.

The doctor/tracker speculation bothers me.
Is he was Bp, Why bother bringing it up?


UNVOTE:

[StubbsKVM]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nacho

[StubbsKVM]

I think you are opening a can of worms with the no lynch. Even of we don't lynch today if mafia get one through we are left with just two lynches to get it right instead of three.

I think the no lynch idea sucks personally, but see if the rest agree.

What he said. No Lynch doesn't get us anywhere

[StubbsKVM]

Nacho makes a good point. I don't really see any flaws. Anyone else object to this?

[StubbsKVM]

Well, 4 of you left aside from the three of us.

I suppose it's best to have you 4 come to a majority then.

[StubbsKVM]

Let's get it over with then.

[StubbsKVM]

UNVOTE:

[StubbsKVM]

That's the second selfhammer in a row. What the hell.

[StubbsKVM]

To be honest, I think Flay is looking better after this night.
If he was scum, not making a kill would not make sense.
I think we should kill Nacho today.

As for my not being around, I was around. I just didn't think it was up to me to hammer feel it.

If Nacho somehow flips town, I think I'll need to take another look at Generic/Miss S
You're the only conftown champino, what do you think?

On the other hand, there's 6 of us left. So if we're wrong on Nacho, we'll have 4 people left. Which is not ideal.

[StubbsKVM]

Oh, and I should point out, had I been mafia champ would be dead right now. That would have put us currently at 5 left with only nacho confirmed, and with a status of being seen as town by most I would only need to create two mislynches out of three of you.

This is actually pointless.
You can say whatever you want.

I was against a massclaim and I still stand behind that.

So now you want to Lynch me for doubting you, Generic?
If Nacho flips town, you really need rope. So don't worry, if you are indeed town.

[StubbsKVM]

I've just reread a part of generics ISO.

Only one post about Antagon(the one in your reads list)
Then you vote your gut scumread Nacho. When Antagon then puts Nacho at L-1, you switch to Antagon. Then Feel it complains and you switch to feel it.

It looks like you tried to bus Antagon first, because he was going down anyway. Then you switch to feel it, because you saw a chance to save your scumbuddy.

Also, that comment about 3 scum feels forced.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it and it's still nacho

[StubbsKVM]

I did, I just felt the "town block" needed to agree on it

Who's your second conftown?

[StubbsKVM]

And how long can he keep that up for?

He asked for two kills. I have agreed to being willing to follow on one with a view to the second being based on good logic for the first choice.

After two kills if we are two nights more without a kill he is all but guaranteed scum aint he, we have lost 2 people at most (5 players left) and we kill him. Champ is confirmed town so if we get to that point and say he has chosen stubs and feel it to be lynched, we are left with lynching him, and if mafia have played a game to get him lynched the next night champ chooses between flay, me and miss stranger to jail... we go another night without a kill and its a good chance who he chose is the mafia player, and if the mafia has AGAIN not killed we STILL have another lynch available.

If we get all the way down to champ, miss stranger and one other... well, im going way off in to the future,

for now, where is the harm in nachos plan?

You didn't seem to have a problem with this before.

[StubbsKVM]

Going into the previous night, it was pretty clear Flay or me would be the Lynch candidates for today.
I don't think Flay would have no-killed if he was scum, if he had a 50% chance of dying.

I still think it's Nacho, the only logical other option is Generic, to me.
I think Flay might be capable of pulling a stunt like this, but Gen Wolf? No, especially not after his day 1.

[StubbsKVM]

You agreed to this situation, Why are you complaining now? Because you're suddenly not so obvtown anymore?

[StubbsKVM]

I don't see the need to. I have more than enough trust in Nacho's scumhunting abilities.
If he fails to find it, then he's definitely it. It's that simple.

[StubbsKVM]

it's also possible a jailkeeper targeted the scum player
or the scum player could have targeted a bulletproof.

All speculation.

Btw, I found this very telling in my look back over Stubbs.

I believe this was pre champs revelation... If scum he would know that the kill was unsuccessful, making nacho the target and the mafia player not knowing if they had been protected or blocked

This is Day 2, after the first night without a kill, replying to your post

It's feel it or fegelein/chkflip.

But don't disregard any of the ones to be replaced or recently replaced, technically I should be dead by now. I was considered town universally and hammered the mafia player.

So unless we have a doc (silence if you are out there, I do NOT want to know, just keep up the good work) the kill wasn't registered in time.

I think your reaction is pretty worse, looking back at it.

[StubbsKVM]

Your play after day 1 hasn't been as good to say the least.

Miss Stranger was my top town read.
Nacho is my first scum option, although it's only because of the night actions, and not because of his play.

You're my other option, because I think Flay would have killed champino if he was scum.

You know you're town is not a valid argument by the way.

I know I'm town, but I'm pretty sure you won't believe me neither.

I'm trying to find more options for people being scum. If we're all here just waiting for Nacho to do all the work, why bother playing?

I have a lot of confidence in Nacho's scumhunting, and he has a flawless record on reading me. If Nacho is somehow town, I'm pretty confident he will find the scum.

If he's scum, we'll lynch him at lylo and have this in the bag anyway.

You keep complaining about me actually trying to find something, and the only thing you've got on me is my response to your post on day 2.

[StubbsKVM]

On another note, nobody has voted you, why do you think you're so definitely going to get lynched today?

[StubbsKVM]

I have no problem getting lynched if that's what everybody wants. I'm just asking to put in a little effort yourselves.
Yes, I trust Nacho's scumhunting ability. If he want to lynch me, fine.

You all wanted a massclaim, you got it.
You all agreed to Nacho's idea, deal with it.


If I'm the one getting lynched today because I'm looking at other people besides Nacho, fine. At least I won't blame myself for handing out the victory.

[StubbsKVM]

I don't really see your point.

If Nacho leads us to another mislynch, it only makes me more confident he's scum.

[StubbsKVM]

I have not crossed Flay off my list yet. I am only trying to have a discussion about this.
And your stubborn "it's you or Nacho" isn't helping.

[StubbsKVM]

I said

I think

Flay would have killed

I also said

Flay is looking better

I did not say

Flay is now obvtown.

Or
Flay Would never do that.

I'm now looking at you because your behaviour has changed.


If I didn't want to be lynched today, I would have targeted Flay.

[StubbsKVM]

Exactly.

You're my other option, because I think...

Flay has moved way up, you have moved way down.

It doesn't mean I'm only interested in you.

[StubbsKVM]

As long as we're all on the same page about Nacho dying at lylo, it's all good.

[StubbsKVM]

I just went to check on Gen_Wolf, and he's still playing in other games.

So this makes me wonder about his replacing out.

[StubbsKVM]

...no he's not?

[ongoinggames]He just asked for replacement in the last one he was in. He got replaced in this and one other already since mid-July.[/ongoinggames]

Did he? I was checking dates, which looked recent.

[StubbsKVM]

Maybe we could Lynch Nacho today. Allow me to explain:

We Lynch Nacho today. Here's how we proceed if he flips town:
Champ jailkeeps me(considering everyone has doubts about me)

If there is no nightkill, we have 5 people left tomorrow and you all Lynch me.
Champ will likely die next and Flay/Karnage/Generic play lylo

If there is a nightkill, I will be confirmed town and we'll lynch out of Generic/Flay/Karnage tomorrow.


This will get rid of Nacho/me at lylo. So in case on of you is lying, the odds are better.


Did I Miss something or does this make sense?

[StubbsKVM]

Generic, what do you think of my plan?

[StubbsKVM]

I suppose it is. Never mind then.

I thought we would be at lylo tomorrow with the original plan, but I guess I was wrong about that.

The problem is, if we don't announce champino's target, we'll never have a confirmed town.

[StubbsKVM]

I'm thinking Nacho simply gave up.

[StubbsKVM]

If it's not Nacho, I'm thinking Generic.

[StubbsKVM]

My order taking nacho out is Stubbs, flay and then karnage.

I must point out flay is far townier than karnage in this but I cannot ignore the predecessors.

Flay may be simply a bloody good mafia player.

This is what worries me too.

[StubbsKVM]

prod on Nacho?

[StubbsKVM]

VOTE: Generic

[StubbsKVM]

I don't see the need to. I have more than enough trust in Nacho's scumhunting abilities.
If he fails to find it, then he's definitely it. It's that simple.

I think I should quote this.

[StubbsKVM]

VOTE: Nacho

I suppose this day'll end fast.

[StubbsKVM]

That was all way too complicated to follow.

Why are we not lynching Nacho again??

[StubbsKVM]

UNVOTE:

Ok I read it again and it seems to make sense. I'm game.

[StubbsKVM]

But I don't think it's THAT much better, and it makes NO sense in the larger context of the game.

Who are you lynching in Stubbs-You-Karnage lylo after I flip town?
This question goes out to all three of you.

Flay

[StubbsKVM]

Well, we still have time, no?

We don't need to speedlynch him.

[StubbsKVM]

Nacho, Why aren't you voting Flay yet?

[StubbsKVM]

Both being who exactly?

[StubbsKVM]

Stubbgame 1
Stubbgame 2

Played a couple games with Stubbtown before, haven't seen him as scum. He was fairly easy for me to read as town both times, hence his trust in me having the ability to read him. Generally when you read someone fairly easily a couple of times and have proven yourself a competent scumhunter elsewhere, the interaction between the two of you gets extremely hard to fake when the readable one gets scum. If you read the second Stubbgame, you see me retreating from penguin after she brings out the "Nacho has 100% read me before. Weird." posting, and if you take a gander through Open 507, you'll notice that Laz starts to suspect me immediately after I call him scum. I've seen this towntell a lot and it only works for newer players or players I know so well that scumreading them when they are town is actually a scumtell, but it's been damn reliable until and I have no reason to believe that it's not going to be damn reliable again. I also have some other reasons for finding Stubb town if interested, but I'm pretty confident in this townread and it *shouldn't* matter if incorrect, but if it does, then Stubbs is town and please please please don't fucking lynch him.

So what happened to this?

[StubbsKVM]

It's Day 6 and I'm getting tired of seeing people flip town so I want you to hold me and tell me that everything is OK and you are still town. Can you do that?

Well I can tell you I'm still town, sure. I can say whatever I want though, so I don't see how this is helping you.

[StubbsKVM]

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

In the end, I don't think this is a likely-Antagon scum move. My personal rules for listing are that newscum are most likely to have at least one buddy in null/null leaning listing, bus heavy scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in scum listing, protective scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in town listing. Idea behind newscum is that they don't want to leave obvious connections to their partners so they don't want to single them out with such an obvious connection, which is pretty much exactly what Antagon did to Gen Wolf here. Don't think he would fuck over his partner as he was going down this way since he showed at least a little respect for his partner by attempting to root out a PR before he went down.

Well, Antagon is not newscum. He's joined november 2012. I don't have any experience with him before, so anything he would do or wouldn't do is a big question mark for me.

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post.

In the midst of a bunch of people attacking you, it seems unnatural for scum to immediately begin buddying someone who finally takes their side a bit. As scum, it means that you did something right in that person's eyes and you don't really want to do anything to fuck it up, so it ended up coming across as more of a "thank you for showing that my side has validity" more than anything else.[/quote]
Cornered as he was, Gen Wolf could have reached out like this, so he could get some help getting out of the situation he was in. This is not alignment indicative to me.

You oaks are so far off who scum actually are they just not killing because your doing the work for them.

This comes from such an extremely paranoid place that I seriously doubt it could be coming from scum.[/quote]
Not really. This thought process was initially why I reconsidered my read on Generic. It proved to be false.

Honestly, I obviously want town to win. However, if it came to it and after some discussion people are unsure I would rather have them lynch me than potentially expose a PR or what not. I'll take a bullet for the team in that regard but I just encourage everyone to use the time we have.

This is also really, really town and not the type of post that I think scum-Gen is capable of faking.[/quote]
Or it could be a last attempt to shift our opinion on him.


On a more general note for Flay's play, play between here and what we're seeing now seems very different.

I would still like for someone to explain how I'm being 'inconsistent'. I'm seeing a lot of bare claims designed to delegitimize me, but nothing actually provable.

I'm on my phone right now so no big post, but I am at L-1 is that right? Somebody better have a GOOD case...

My predecessor definitely had some dumb things to say (including not wanting to lynch Antagon), so if I still look like a good lynch by the end of the Day, so be it.

From my limited understanding of Flay as scum, he takes an aggressive stance towards people who suspect him, which is something he started out with upon replacing in (suggesting playstyle), but then dropped it immediately after reading the game. I don't think that scumFlay is the type of player to posture for the "oh just kill me if my predecessor was too scummy"; he wouldn't bring that up in the first place, would try to get his foot in the door with the analysis posts he made and defend Gen as scummy but still town.

His suspicions as scum are also not really fleshed out so well; he tends to control rhetoric as opposed to actually try to sort people out. He's hoppy, he's opportunistic, he's pretty much a classic scum player in that respect. But certain things lately have seen extremely genuine, in a way that scumFlay can't (or didn't) replicate in that previous game; he didn't focus on lurkers for lurking, he focused on making people who should be centers of attention, and the latest "I will not hammer Generic" would require himscum refusing to hammer a townie when as scum he has pretty much every reason to.

Overall, I might be giving Gen Wolf too much credit and underestimating Flay-scum, but the slot seems town town town to me and I have serious difficulty imagining them flipping scum.[/quote]

I have no previous experience with Flay. And I'll admit that his play has been pretty good. But I fear that he is just an excellent player and has the ability to come back from the position he was in.

---------------------------------------

So basically, from all of the arguments you made, there isn't one that makes me think that he is 100% town.
Sure, it's possible. But I still doubt it.

Karnage/Miss Stranger has been a strong townread throughout this entire game. And then all there's left is me and you.

So for me, choosing between Flay and Karnage is still easy. Unless there's something huge I'm missing in my Karnage read?

[StubbsKVM]

Fixed Quote tags. Apologies.

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

In the end, I don't think this is a likely-Antagon scum move. My personal rules for listing are that newscum are most likely to have at least one buddy in null/null leaning listing, bus heavy scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in scum listing, protective scum are most likely to have at least one buddy in town listing. Idea behind newscum is that they don't want to leave obvious connections to their partners so they don't want to single them out with such an obvious connection, which is pretty much exactly what Antagon did to Gen Wolf here. Don't think he would fuck over his partner as he was going down this way since he showed at least a little respect for his partner by attempting to root out a PR before he went down.

Well, Antagon is not newscum. He's joined november 2012. I don't have any experience with him before, so anything he would do or wouldn't do is a big question mark for me.

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post.

In the midst of a bunch of people attacking you, it seems unnatural for scum to immediately begin buddying someone who finally takes their side a bit. As scum, it means that you did something right in that person's eyes and you don't really want to do anything to fuck it up, so it ended up coming across as more of a "thank you for showing that my side has validity" more than anything else.

Cornered as he was, Gen Wolf could have reached out like this, so he could get some help getting out of the situation he was in. This is not alignment indicative to me.

You oaks are so far off who scum actually are they just not killing because your doing the work for them.

This comes from such an extremely paranoid place that I seriously doubt it could be coming from scum.

Not really. This thought process was initially why I reconsidered my read on Generic. It proved to be false.

Honestly, I obviously want town to win. However, if it came to it and after some discussion people are unsure I would rather have them lynch me than potentially expose a PR or what not. I'll take a bullet for the team in that regard but I just encourage everyone to use the time we have.

This is also really, really town and not the type of post that I think scum-Gen is capable of faking.

Or it could be a last attempt to shift our opinion on him.

On a more general note for Flay's play, play between here and what we're seeing now seems very different.

I would still like for someone to explain how I'm being 'inconsistent'. I'm seeing a lot of bare claims designed to delegitimize me, but nothing actually provable.

I'm on my phone right now so no big post, but I am at L-1 is that right? Somebody better have a GOOD case...

My predecessor definitely had some dumb things to say (including not wanting to lynch Antagon), so if I still look like a good lynch by the end of the Day, so be it.

From my limited understanding of Flay as scum, he takes an aggressive stance towards people who suspect him, which is something he started out with upon replacing in (suggesting playstyle), but then dropped it immediately after reading the game. I don't think that scumFlay is the type of player to posture for the "oh just kill me if my predecessor was too scummy"; he wouldn't bring that up in the first place, would try to get his foot in the door with the analysis posts he made and defend Gen as scummy but still town.

His suspicions as scum are also not really fleshed out so well; he tends to control rhetoric as opposed to actually try to sort people out. He's hoppy, he's opportunistic, he's pretty much a classic scum player in that respect. But certain things lately have seen extremely genuine, in a way that scumFlay can't (or didn't) replicate in that previous game; he didn't focus on lurkers for lurking, he focused on making people who should be centers of attention, and the latest "I will not hammer Generic" would require himscum refusing to hammer a townie when as scum he has pretty much every reason to.

Overall, I might be giving Gen Wolf too much credit and underestimating Flay-scum, but the slot seems town town town to me and I have serious difficulty imagining them flipping scum.

I have no previous experience with Flay. And I'll admit that his play has been pretty good. But I fear that he is just an excellent player and has the ability to come back from the position he was in.

---------------------------------------

So basically, from all of the arguments you made, there isn't one that makes me think that he is 100% town.
Sure, it's possible. But I still doubt it.

Karnage/Miss Stranger has been a strong townread throughout this entire game. And then all there's left is me and you.

So for me, choosing between Flay and Karnage is still easy. Unless there's something huge I'm missing in my Karnage read?[/quote]

[StubbsKVM]

But I fear that he is just an excellent player and has the ability to come back from the position he was in.

This is so common it has a 'name': "Lynch Flay Just In Case". All you're doing is saying you have no refutation, but I MIGHT be scum. Which, while true from your perspective, is utterly useless information.

Why is Karnage/Stranger such a strong townread for you? For me it's closer to null... they say nothing egregiously wrong, but nothing super amazingly town, either.

Well, it's not so much Karnage's content, but Miss Stranger's.

We are at the point where I have to choose between 2 people.

So it's not so much "let's Lynch him just in case", because according to the plan, there's a chance I'll have to vote Karnage tomorrow anyway.

[StubbsKVM]

We still have 8 days, and I like the fact that we're discussing our reads.

[StubbsKVM]

Nacho, I would like to hear your thoughts again before the hammer.

[StubbsKVM]

Just adding stuff through reading.

Antagon

^
gets called out for lurking, and when actually posting, adds nothing besides explaining backseat hunting.
First actual input at post 174. Congratulations.
That vote on Nacho was really bad.

champinoman

First actual post looks good.
That reads list (138) looks weird. "Everybody is scummy" and "Generic is leaning town" doesn't match.

Feel It

looks at other games to get a read on Gen_Wolf and says exactly what I think. Good.
seems like there's some suspicion on this guy. My gut says this is wrong.
Calling town "the town". That's a possible scumtell.

Fegelein

^
His reads worry me. Gen Wolf isn't scummy, but Nacho is?

Gen_Wolf

^
wants a hammer at post 20? And he's supposed to be SE?
Next post and he says he isn't serious. It's a reaction test. That's a crappy reaction test for a newbie game. Imagine all newbies agreeing and voting. That would have been bad.
Now he says his post was "clearly a joke". I don't agree, this is a newbie game. Asks why SE is different from being a complete newbie. Is this another joke?
His vote for Fegelin when Antagon and Nacho are under pressure makes up for something though. Looks like he's not choosing the easy way out by joining a wagon.

Generic

His first posts says he won't say anything yet. Weird.
Not liking his reaction to Nacho voting for him.
That reads post is very, very good. Town
Post 224 is good.

Miss Stranger

can't make up my mind about her in the early posts.
That large post looks like actual hunting and deserves some town credit. Lots of questions too.
Congrats on the pregnancy. Good luck! I can relate to how you feel. I have twins
Your posts are hard to analyse because of their length and massive quoting. I find myself getting distracted and skipping parts. I see you've taken a little offense at people commenting on them. If I wasn't catching up 10 pages, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it

Nachomamma8

*
Loving his first posts. This looks exactly like my first game with him, in which he was town.


Needless to say that I probably missed some parts. This took me a long time to read. I thought 10 pages was easy, but those posts were looooooooooooooooong.

now let's see what I posted here.

Antagon: I don't trust this guy at all. He adds nothing, but decides to put Nacho(who is a null-read on his list) at L-1 when things get dangerous.
Champino: I have a hard time reading him. I'll give him a scum lean, based on my gut feeling.
Feel It: Is actively scumhunting and posts stuff I generally agree with. I may have to reread on him on the L-1 situation, pretty sure I missed some points there.
Fegelein: that comment I put there was from one of the early pages. There's something about him that just doesn't feel right.
Gen Wolf: Those comments were pretty horrible. His being less active later on resulted in votes moving away. I'm not convinced he's town, but I will not chase him today.
Generic: Town. No point in explaining further.
Miss Stranger: Town. I like her commitment.
Nachomamma: His day 1 looks exactly like my earlier experience with him where he was town. Lynching this guy over meta? Who suggested this and why?

So: town to scum:

Generic
Miss Stranger
Feel It
Nachomamma
Gen Wolf
Champino
Fegelein
Antagon

VOTE: Antagon

These were my reads lists from day 1.

So: Good Scumhunting, Committed, asking a lot of questions.
I don't really want to go all over her posts again to quote what was town when and why.

[StubbsKVM]

Miss Stranger has struck me as very, very town for this entire game. I've liked her T/S scum lists, I really liked her pick up on Antagon, I've liked her questioning... now it might be because I'm a bit tired after all of that, but I think the Miss Stranger read is one that is shared by pretty much everyone (save Gen Wolf) and so doesn't need much explaining.

SCUM

champinoman
Mr. Flay
Feel It
Generic
Stubbs
Miss Stranger

TOWN

I'm fine with massclaim with the caveat that the tracker should claim VT unless the tracker sees some information that doesn't mesh with results OR Doctor claims first. One of the combinations we need to watch out for is Tracker/One-Shot Bulletproof which would be really bad to massclaim, and this means that we'll be pretty set even if we have this setup.

Why do I need to explain it anyway. You've called her your biggest townread yourself.

[StubbsKVM]

Not really no.
Explain?

[StubbsKVM]

I'm still not convinced massclaim is a good idea, but if everybody wants it...well I don't really have a choice, do I?

Scum

Mr Flay
Feel It
Champino
Generic
Nacho
Miss Stranger

Town

I'm sorry Mr Flay. Your predecessor has ruined your slot for me. You can say whatever you want basically. There's no way I'll ever trust you enough to keep you around for long.

Well sure, but this last line still applies.

[StubbsKVM]

Well Nacho, you're going to need to make a case if you want me to vote him.

[StubbsKVM]

VOTE: Mr Flay

Let's see what happens.

[StubbsKVM]

VOTE: Karnage

You're the only one left I can vote today.
I'll let the others decide who they want to take to the next day.

[StubbsKVM]

V/la until sunday. I might pop in, or I might not.

[StubbsKVM]

yeah, I have nothing to add really....

[StubbsKVM]

Well then.

VOTE: Nacho

[StubbsKVM]

Haha Nacho. Nice try.

[StubbsKVM]

I think I deserve an award if Nacho flips town.

I won't ruin the surprise until the mod ends the game.

*drumroll*

[StubbsKVM]

I think it was Nacho who suggested this in the first place. So if he went through hell, he deserved it

We won, that's important.