Mini Normal 1983: Winter Wonderland [Endgame!]

[Hopkirk]

Or we could get out of RVS organically, like this.

VOTE: UC Voyager

[Hopkirk]

That's what I was thinking.

[Hopkirk]

i played a hydra game with ucv, and we randed scum
his comments to me pregame were smth along the lines of:
"rvs are our friend, try to make them last as long as you can"
unless he's faking this on purpose, he's most likely town

His actions don't do anything to move away from RVS.
Plus he knows you know that. Maybe he wants you to townread him.

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

[Hopkirk]

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

If his vote is serious, then he more than likely believes that Intern's vote is scummy and I'd like to hear him elaborate on why scum would vote someone for their avatar.

and again i dont think ucv's actions were inconsistent - it's just bad.

He clearly doesn't think that 'anyone engaging in RVS is scum'. Why do you think it might be serious.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

Walk on the moon with me for a second Hop

I think it's absolutely believable this vote is serious coming from someone who is known for trying to force RVS to end early and want clarification

Do you disagree?

1.) That requires UCV to think that everyone agrees with him, hence find anyone participating in RVS scummy. He clearly doesn't have that view since he only referenced one person there, not everyone involved in RVS.
2.) It's a wagon, not a major scumread. Main value is how UCV and other reaction to it. You're treating it like more than it is to a strange degree.

it's a wagon growing quickly
you/flubb both hopped on with none of your own reasoning
it's opportunistic

Same problem. An RVS wagon isn't going to lead to a lynch unless the game stagnates afterwards, or someone lolhammers. It's an alternative to/extension of RVS. It gets reactions. I dislike yours.

i guess early day wagons are good for pressure/reactions
im fine with that now
seph reacts good under some pressure
what even is a dichotomy

This gives me the impression you weren't seriously opposed earlier since you backed down- and townread Seph- based purely on a basic explination of what he was doing. 'It's an extension of RVS' is explaining intent, not a good or a bad reaction unless you actually have thoughts on the intent. I don't like the way you changed perspectives here.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber town.

serg i'm not following

are you reading intern/flub as a pair already bc from your post it seems like you should be voting for intern? which i dont really agree with but still

VOTE: flub

i'm going to trust in the meta reads of seph either way and let that sort itself out later tho

Let's put Flub at L-1 and see how he reacts to pressure

down for that as well

As in right now i think its possible these two could be buddies.

I'll know if Seph is scum. He lurks hardcore so if i see him lurk i will be putting him in a strong scum read.

Bad.

I agree with sheep here, why does Internecine care? Sheep did say he's down to lynch either. Perhaps Flub is scum and Seph isn't and thats why Internecine voted Seph and is asking sheep why he's voting flub instead of seph?

Already went over it, its better to consolidate on one wagon instead of splitting it between the two of them.

Like this

VOTE: Flubber

Nah, multiple wagons is good. It has to go through a transition phase.

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: Haven't caught up yet. Posting as I read.

I wonder why nobody’s really commented on me/NM. I like NM too.

and an Hopkirk.
Played with twice when he was town and both times he was very active, proactive. it's early days but so far he has been lightweight.

I disagree with all three of these points.

Unless you're counting really old games (which either don't exist, or I've forgotten), we've only played one (completed) game together. I was third party playing protown and was more active because I had a succesful game breaking strategy that I needed to impliment. That required more words.

I disagree I didn't do anything in my first few posts. I got the UC wagon started which got us out of RVS and that/reactions to that are the cause of all the current wagons.

Also, I was the last post in thread as of when I went to sleep last night. I'm GMT.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber’s entrance is basically the same as a previous game I’ve played with him where he was town.

Bujaber’s Moz vote in 139 isn’t very good. Reads as (wanting to sound) annoyed, yet doesn’t quite fit. Moz isn’t the only one guilty of what Bu is complaining about, it’s explicitly not a serious vote Bu is making, and Moz didn’t say ‘confirmed’ town, so Bu is changing his words to make the read.
That wouldn’t make me dislike Bu alone. I dislike Bu because he then goes on to express a scumread on either Flubber or Seph. Firstly, he doesn’t comment on why, which doesn’t fit with his earlier complains about people lacking content/good reasoning. Secondly, those are popular wagons. Ignoring them in favour of the Moz vote looks like intentionally trying to avoid getting involved in the main ongoing discussions. Sitting at the sidelines.

[Hopkirk]

doesnt matter if you're still caught up bc that was my response to your response and context wouldnt change anything

dont mind waiting for you to catch up though

The point was that I'd seen what you'd said, but I'd finish catching up before responding.

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

This is the post you were referencing, right?

[Hopkirk]

Yes, it is unreasonable to think that.
UC understands RVS happens. Consequently, he cannot develop a strong scumread on someone just because they engage in RVS.
It could be called 'serious' if you set a really really low bar for calling a vote serious, but I(/anyone reasonable) would set the bar significantly above that.

VOTE: Bujaber
Meant to do this in 151.

Regarding Flubber's enterance, the vote in that game was also part of a significant wagon that stayed close to the lynch the entire day phase.

[Hopkirk]

and an Hopkirk.
Played with twice when he was town and both times he was very active, proactive. it's early days but so far he has been lightweight.

The bar in question is my and your perspectives, not UCV's.
'Serious' could either mean 'not random' or 'A top scumread as of now' or 'I would be happy to end the day with a lynch right now'. Where do you set the bar?

[Hopkirk]

Regarding the Moz read, I got the impression he was overstating townreads, but I don’t think he specified hard in the way you’re defining it either.

In this game yes I'm finding the approach scummy. I don't think there's enough to warrant such confident reads. But I don't necessary think he's definitely wrong about his townreads.

But I can see how some town would choose this approach sometimes. I wouldn't. I tend to break the pool apart into small pieces. For example right now I have flubb/seph in one group. Scumreading both, but I don't think both can be scum together so I'll be analyzing them further as the game goes on. I have moz as another scumread, and I'm pursuing this trajectory and seeing if it makes sense through his and others' reactions. I have sheep as a townie which means i'll be continuing to monitor if that makes sense, and if his reads make sense from a townie perspective. Hopkirk, who was a nullread more or less but slightly leaning towards town has actually raised a good point about sheep so that makes me question things for example.

Anyway you get the picture.

Then they should be your first priorty to sort. If you read them correctly (decide which is scum/town) you get info there, and on everyone who's been on all the wagons. Much more useful vote than Moz where it seems to be a policy vote.

yeah im townreading that entire composition here rn

You do know what a wagon with no counterwagon tends to point to...rignt?

i've definitely been on D1 scum lynches that have been strongarmed by entirely town so from an uninformed perspective this doesnt really help clear you

Who do you think is the scum on your wagon rn?

Even Serg?

[Hopkirk]

i think i'm at

{sheep, n_m} - Town
{Intern, Serg} - Townlean
{hem, moz} - weaker townlean
{Bu, Hop} - frequently going back and forth on tbh
{UCV, Schism} - null
{Seph, Flub} - scumlean

which is a lot less than i thought i was at and im not really confident about seph with the meta reads on him (planning on looking into that rn)

i mean i can agree with that on paper but i dont really know if for sure if that'd be enough for me to feel like i have some semblance of understanding the gamestate rn

VOTE: Hopkirk

sheep and seph can you tell me how you feel about the conversation I had with him?

Did something change, or are you just trying to sort me?

Or do you think Hopkirk is more probable to be scum than Flubb?

Don't like that you're asking instead of voting me here. You seem a bit too cautious/sheepy with your votes given you disliked UC.

Don't unvote. If someone hammers, it would be AI and I'd like to see why. I'm actually good with the lynch if it happens.

Katyusha is right UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hopkirk

If Flubb is town, Hopkirk is scum, probably. "how?" Whiteknighting players without second guessing when most could see that UC and Flubb were sus. And also I'm sheeping Kat.

Are you reading Flubber as town?
What about my townread on Flubber is bad/wrong?

Since most could see why Flubber was suspicious, please go over his case in your own words.

[Hopkirk]

well you can't be wrong about your townread on flubb if you know flubb is town. it just seems convenient that you can see 20/20 about Flubb's alignment and happy to defend him. i think that flubb could be town here even if the wagon is town. but im not townreading him. that's my problem. i should be, but it's absent in how he voted, handled the situation around him, and how he defended. there's an absence of clear town signs from him. but somehow you townread him.

The largest part of why I like Flubber is because I dislike the wagon.
You're suggesting I'm 100% sure about the read, despite my agreement on overstating reads.
'20/20' and 'if you know' and 'you can't be wrong' imply a lot more than I've said.
Meta is a minor point. Surprised you didn't want to know what game I was talking about given I specified it was his entry I thought was similar. Still, he'd be a minor lean without the wagon.

What are your thoughts on Serg?

[Hopkirk]

Don't like that you're asking instead of voting me here. You seem a bit too cautious/sheepy with your votes given you disliked UC.

I dont like how you think i should have voted you there. i dont like how you're branding my play cautious here when that's not even what's happening. i dont like how you think sheeping is something unlikeable. and i don't like how you think me not liking UC is somehow grounds to not place my vote elsewhere

Consistently cautious. Pattern, not just here.
I thought you liked UC so voted Flubber, might be wrong about the consistently part then. Why do you dislike UC?
Why didn't you respond to my other points.

blatant omgus

Who from?

[Hopkirk]

Don't like that you're asking instead of voting me here. You seem a bit too cautious/sheepy with your votes given you disliked UC.

I dont like how you think i should have voted you there. i dont like how you're branding my play cautious here when that's not even what's happening. i dont like how you think sheeping is something unlikeable. and i don't like how you think me not liking UC is somehow grounds to not place my vote elsewhere

Looking back you never mentioned UC which makes this curious.

[Hopkirk]

UC is completely null for me you know right?

[Hopkirk]

lol. if sergtacos is town, you would have gotten something more visceral than a gut read. that's what im saying.

Have you played any games with him other than 1804?

UC is completely null for me you know right?

what. why is that relevant

I was kind of getting the impression Kat thought otherwise.

[Hopkirk]

That was actually @Kat, but applies to HEM too actually. I don't see why anyone could suspect UC, or that HEM could think I did given half my argument with Kat was about scumreading someone based on that content being impossible.

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: No it's not what the conversation was about, it's something you can infer from the conversation as objectively true.
Given I didn't believe UC would seriously vote/form a read based on that content, an equal offering from UC wouldn't be enough for me to form a read on them.

[Hopkirk]

Not read posts past what I'm quoting btw.

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: BuJaber

Avatar is too edgy for me please lynch this

VOTE: internecine

Hmmm. Avatars mean nothing

er seeing as though that inference doesnt really make sense from both how i remember the conversation as it happened and how i'm reading it, no, the formation of any alignment read on based on UCV's vote is mostly irrelevant to the conversation.

By equal offering and inference I mean that since I explicitly state 4 is NAI, you can conclude I think 7 is equally NAI.
The conversation is about me trying to sort you, and I assume vice versa, yeah.
what do you mean by an equal offering? like if he explained the vote?

[Hopkirk]

@sheeps: it’s irrelevant what alignment UCV is here. If it’s serious he’d be null. If he wasn’t serious he’d be null. The wagon was a standard RVS wagon.

let's stop talking about ucv because it doesn't mean anything

i got confused with hopkirk because he insinuated that I disliked UC. then I said that even if I liked UC it's not grounds to vote elsewhere. then he said he thought I liked UC. and then he's back saying i dislike UC. then he says UC is null for him (he said this is for me too) and that he said I thought he disliked UC.

this is 100% eric andre level non sequitur that derailed the actual event happening here: Hopkirk has been constantly misrepresenting events, in addition to my vote reason. And then sheep defending him with little cause for it. this is noteworthy and that we should be taking this more seriously.

This is not true.
205- I said you disliked UC, thinking you’d said that.
In 209 you said you didn’t like UC.
In 219, after a quick ISO, I realized you didn’t have a read on UC, and asked why you disliked him since you said it in 209.
220- I clarified that I’d look back and seen you didn’t express a read on him. This was 30 seconds after 219 and meant to be part of it.
223- I explicitly said this wasn’t @you. I posted it in response to Kat and you seemed to assume it was part of our conversation for some reason.

I never said I thought you liked UC. Quote this.
I didn't say UC is null for you because he is to me. I said he's probably null for you rather than a scumread of yours since you hadn't mentioned him.
Are you saying that in 209 you weren't saying you disliked UC.

[Hopkirk]

@243/Monkey

137- no content
138- Joins Flubber wagon
140/142- no content
167- no content, restates dislike of Flubber
178-9- no content
180- no content except that you don’t scumread Serg
193- Wants hammer
194- question without content. Asks if someone else scumreads me
195- no content. No actual reads expressed other than Flubber as of here. Seems cautious
203- Votes me

Seems cautious to me.

The phrases aren’t out of context. You haven’t shown why they apply/why you’re sure I had Flubber as basically conf-town.

[Hopkirk]

In 246 this
‘By equal offering and inference I mean that since I explicitly state 4 is NAI, you can conclude I think 7 is equally NAI.
The conversation is about me trying to sort you, and I assume vice versa, yeah.’
Should not be in the spoiler. I screwed tags up.

oh didnt realize that there was a response in it

no, that's a bad conclusion - I agree 4 is NAI but that doesn't mean UCV feels the same way and based on UCV's philosophy it's possible he saw something scummy

pedit: i think he was in kidney mafia and remember him being obvtown so i dont know if im really convinced

we all own page tops communism etc

pedit: fuck u too php

This is in response to what I read UC as. What his reads were were not relevant.
In Kidney half my posts were complaints about the number of posts.

[Hopkirk]

I dont like how you think i should have voted you there. i dont like how you're branding my play cautious here when that's not even what's happening. i dont like how you think sheeping is something unlikeable. and i don't like how you think me not liking UC is somehow grounds to not place my vote elsewhere

hop uh

this isnt a statement of disliking UC, he's just talking about your thought process in 205

That could explain a lot of the last few pages.

[Hopkirk]

By cautious I mean only voting on people who have other votes first and not producing content to support those votes.

Anyway, right now I'm thinking something like:
Town: NM, Flubber, HeM, Katyu, Moz
Neutral: UC, Seph, Sheep
Scum: BuJaber, Serg, and maybe Intern

[Hopkirk]

This is in response to what I read UC as. What his reads were were not relevant.

??

hop can you

take a few steps back and just try to reread everything because now that you got called out for it i still feel like we're in different planes of existence and hem seeing it too makes me think it's not a mutual or me issue

ucv's alignment is irrelevant here and i dont think ive ever asked you what you thought it was. we started having a conversation because you didn't seem to like the question i asked about ucv possibly scumreading intern, and i went and justified why i thought it was relevant. then we kind of went into a few non-sequiturs and i didn't really pick up on how off they felt until i asked if you were being deliberate about it. i was then asking if you saw the possibility that it was serious to clarify my intent and then from there it seemed that we might have different takes on what constitutes a serious vote so i dropped it

pedit: still would like to know why flubber's town, and also why sheep is null and intern is scummy? rest i can see from your pov

I thought you'd be more interested in HEM town. Anyway, Flubber is town because the wagon was bad. Sheep is neutral because there's good and bad. Intern I want to interact with before I talk about.

I'll go through our conversation from my pov in next post.

i wish you have waited for the flubb thingy to be done before acting scummy because I sincerely wanted more from that whole flubb wagon. now everybody's gonna react to flubb differently than how I tried to anticipate they would

I'd have liked if UC got to L-1, but we couldn't have that either.

[Hopkirk]

Early game part isn’t relevant since my thoughts changed considerably after 6 pages. They went from ‘how should we do RVS today then’ to proper reads.

35- You said you thought UCV could be voting seriously. This didn’t make much difference to me since I wanted a RVS wagon, not a lynch. This sounded like you were interested in his alignment.
146- I’m saying it doesn’t matter if UCV was voting seriously since his thoughts/alignment were irrelevant, though I thought he was serious.
156/61 onwards- You continue talking about UCV. That’s what made me think a bit later that you thought I was scumreading him. This is also where you seemed to be interested in what I thought his alignment was.

Alternatively,
You- UCV might have been serious.
Me- I do not think he was serious. Why do you think he was serious?
You then make it sound like I think UC is scum, and vote me.
Me- Maybe he’s voting me because he thinks I think UC is scum.
You- What do you mean? I don’t follow?
Me- I don’t follow. It sounds like that’s relevant.

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: Bit I’m concerned about with Sheepy is that he said he saw both sides of it but didn’t really solve the issue by pointing out I’d misread monkey’s UC read, or trying to get us to understand each other. Though given 235, that could easily be from town too. I also like a lot of other stuff from Sheep.

[Hopkirk]

146 means that UCV's vote isn't serious (in the sense i later define) given he only commented on one vote, so didn't scumread RVS engagement in general.
As of 157, I didn't see why you still weren't sure what I meant. I defined the terms i was using.
I don't see why the conversation went past that. After that, it looked like you wanted to continue discussing it, and where thinking I was thinking something I wasn't thinking.

I strongly considered putting Sheepy in town, but want more before I do.
It's an unresolved issue right now, so I don't really want to just give it benefit of the doubt until I hear Sheepy's thoughts there.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Not_Mafia L-1 this pls and make him claim.

does anyone else feel like this is done only for the claim

You know it's nowhere near L1, right?

[Hopkirk]

Skimming back through yesterday, none of HEM’s points against me are any good. The only thing that stands up seems to be that Hopkirk misread something and HEM used that to paint me as bad instead of asking for clarification first. Will go through this more in a bit.
HEM is probably down to scum for me though.

I still think Hop is scum and am capable of casing him but I think I'd like more people to weigh in on him.

What's your take so far?

I would like to see that as I'm unclear why you're scumreading me.

Sorry, thought the implication was clear. I don't think his summary was accurate, so yes.

It was no need to apologize. I wanted it spelled out for my own peace of mind.

Here's my situation:

1. I'm not so sure flubb is scum here. Which from my perspective and previously mentioned poe makes seph scum. I want to vote there, but feel like it might be too late.
2. we need schism and people other than you 4 to post.
3. HEM has become the most solid town read out of everyone.
4. Because of my thoughts on 315, and points 1 and 3 above, and now that you've confirmed that I did correctly if not completely grasp your conversation with Hop, I'm leaning scum for hop also.

I do not see how you reach me as scum from that.

@Flubber: What scum motivation is there for ‘tangential reasoning’?

Up to end of 16

[Hopkirk]

411 Don’t like buJaber trying to paint it as one of Flubber/Seph is scum. Don’t see any good reasoning.
What I dislike about HEM, looking back, is that he tried to push me/attack me for it instead of clarifying I understood. I’ll point this out directly later. Seems more opportunistic than trying to understand though.

@Intern: Do you have no thoughts on the Kat/Hop/HEM interactions?

[Hopkirk]

I still think Hop is scum and am capable of casing him but I think I'd like more people to weigh in on him.

What's your take so far?

203 - Claims I am whiteknighting Flubber. The following is all the times I’d mentioned any form of townlean on Flubber to that point:
147- ‘Flubber town.’ (no additional reasoning).
151- ‘Flubber’s entrance is basically the same as a previous game I’ve played with him where he was town.’
Describing that as whiteknighting is false.

Then I asked in 205 ‘What about my townread on Flubber is bad/wrong? Since most could see why Flubber was suspicious, please go over his case in your own words.’
206 : ‘well you can't be wrong about your townread on flubb if you know flubb is town. it just seems convenient that you can see 20/20 about Flubb's alignment and happy to defend him.’
HEM responds, doubling down on me having Flubber as confirmed town. He’s also working backwards from ‘Hop is scum hence x’ rather than trying to determine whether I am scum in the first place.

My response: ‘You're suggesting I'm 100% sure about the read, despite my agreement on overstating reads. '20/20' and 'if you know' and 'you can't be wrong' imply a lot more than I've said.’

This is not out of context as he claims in 242

[Hopkirk]

Looking back, I found something important. I wasn't misreading.

Katyusha is right UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hopkirk

If Flubb is town, Hopkirk is scum, probably. "how?" Whiteknighting players without second guessing when

most could see that UC and Flubb were sus

. And also I'm sheeping Kat.

Don't like that you're asking instead of voting me here. You seem a bit too cautious/sheepy with your votes given you disliked UC.

This is why I thought HEM found UC suspicious. He said it here.

I dont like how you think i should have voted you there. i dont like how you're branding my play cautious here when that's not even what's happening. i dont like how you think sheeping is something unlikeable. and i don't like how you think me not liking UC is somehow grounds to not place my vote elsewhere

I misread part of this, which is what Kat pointed out earlier, making me think I'd never actually read HEM saying UC was suspicious.

no. i dont have an opinion on UC. there's literally nothing on UC. im just noting what you said.

This conflicts with finding UC suspicious.

[Hopkirk]

The phrases aren’t out of context. You haven’t shown why they apply/why you’re sure I had Flubber as basically conf-town.

Because everything in your ISO is mostly UC, and flatly telling everyone that Flubb was town without doing some grilling or scrutinizing that read first.

Unture. Attrtibutes the 100% Flubber read to me- and to scum me initially.

I never said I thought you liked UC. Quote this.

Here:

Spoiler: here

I thought you liked UC

so voted Flubber, might be wrong about the consistently part then. Why do you dislike UC?

Are you saying that in 209 you weren't saying you disliked UC.

Yes. I wasn't saying that. I was noting that me not liking UC isn't really something that should keep me from voting elsewhere — because you said you disliked that.

I really dislike this ucv conversation and it needs to be dropped. it's fluff and nothing about it will generate anything AI. that's why it's convenient to be talked about.

a: UC thought it was scummy. So? Does that make him town or scum?
b: UC thought it wasn't scummy and was just RVSing. So? Does that make him town or scum?
c. UC thought it wasn't scummy but wasn't RVSing. So? Does that make him town or scum? No, just an idiot.

The quote used here is 219. I posted less than a minute after in 220 clarifying that I had misread, and that HEM didn't ever think UC was town.
This is a misrepresentation by exclusion.

By cautious I mean only voting on people who have other votes first and not producing content to support those votes.

Anyway, right now I'm thinking something like:
Town: NM, Flubber, HeM, Katyu, Moz
Neutral: UC, Seph, Sheep
Scum: BuJaber, Serg, and maybe Intern

Responded in 264 (above quoted) to my Iso of him. Did not respond to this, or ask me to clarify how he was being 'cautious' before responding in 264.
Misrepresenting/trying to discredit it.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: HEM

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Bujaber

We can agree on this at today I guess?

I'll respond to Kat/HEM when other people have had a chance to weigh in.

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: I'm not going to respond to that directly yet since most people haven't been around to weigh in yet.
While we're waiting, can you tell me what game you looked at to decide what scum Hop or town Hop would do, because you're making a lot of very questionable assumptions about my meta right now. It sounds like a personality read to me, not a scumread.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk, it sounds a lot like you're measuring whether or not to continue this push based on how much people agree with you.

Reactions affect reads.

[Hopkirk]

Since there’s another 8 pages I’ll start going through stuff now I guess.

Disliked 437 from Blu. Tone shifted towards me/Hem. That's why I vote switched.
438 from Kat- Actually that’s the opposite of a white knight. A white knight requires me to defend him or chainsaw attack the attacks on him. I didn’t try and defend him. I stated a townread while catching up. You can see the same in many of my other games.

Monkey 440- The bad bit isn’t really about UC anyway. It’s about how you interacted with me over it. You seemed more interested in painting me badly (shading is that?) than determining what I was talking about. You seemed to seize the opportunity presented by me explaining this rather badly rather than try and resolve it in a towny manner. Regarding Flubber you didn’t present a case on him being scum like I asked. You responded by trying to attack my read instead. Point on misrep by exclusion is because you responded to it badly by ascribing a wrong meaning to a word to try and make me look bad, then didn’t follow up when I said you’d ascribed the wrong meaning.

The UC wagon wasn’t badly/scummily composed. Nobody has convinced me of this yet. Here’s the game I referenced earlier with Flubber: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p9697107
Note that me, Flubber, and not_mafia were on the wagon that began in RVS and it led to the lynch. Everyone was town on it. Compare it to this game’s RVS wagon and you’ll see why I liked it. I explained this earlier without quoting the specific game. It’s only a few pages so it should be easy to see. (obviously it’s different since after that game I wouldn’t have wanted to lynch UC since Fen flipped town, but it seemed like a good way to compare Flubber/NM to that game).

[Hopkirk]

What's good, BuJ?

I don't know both of you seem to be misrepresenting the other. His quote of you calling UC and flubb suspicious and then denying you ever disliked UC seems pretty damning to me.

His lies are more subtle. Either way one of you needs to die because that would expose the other as either scum or town. I want this fight to end. I'll jump on hop if you want I really don't care which of you goes.

Also this doesn't match what he said. Apparently i'm still misrepping HeM, but that's good?
HeM is town if Buj flips scum, but the reverse isn't true (ie HeM isn't scummier if Buj flips town and Buj isn't town if HeM flips scum), so the Buj is better today.

I was under the assumption that UCV rvs'd but then said we should try to get out of rvs as soon as possible which seems like a normal progression to me

though i guess that vote could have been serious - if it is UCV i'd actually like to hear what you think the scum motivation for that vote is

Why do we need solid scum motivation at this point? You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie.
The issue is inconsistency.
Plus we get out of RVS like he wanted.

What first made me consider scum!Hop this game was this post - specifically the second sentence.

Why is Hop shading me here? It was a weird line considering I was voting on the UCV wagon which meant that I was considering him as possible scum - obviously I'm not going to be pushing back against my own push, I would unvote if that were the case.

Since Hop seems like he's responding to my first sentence (UCV's progression seems normal) but is using context from the second sentence, the response feels like a non-sequitur and is ignoring the point being made. Obviously at this point I thought he could just be town misunderstanding me, but the consistency in how he continued to not see what I was talking about seems to me that there was some intention of pushing this point to an agenda, and backtracking yourself to be accountable to your mistakes would have hurt the push's potency. Obviously once it was clear that I wasn't getting lynched or scumread this game he backed off.

If he were just trying to sort me, I think he'd approach it in a more inquisitive manner. "You sound like you're pushing against it trying to look townie" is very different from "Why are you pushing against your own vote?". The latter, again, doesn't really make sense but it's at least clear in that case he's misunderstanding my intentions and can be cleared up easily.

---

I definitely agree with HEM that the Flubber read seemed out of place and white-knighty. I would think a town!Hopkirk would approach the read considering why Flubber was being pushed in the first place:

scumreads n_m for inaccurate meta and his UCV read is weird in light of the game’s context

Maybe Hop doesn't have the meta or context to disagree with the n_m read, which is fine, but if he felt he was town then Hop would have an explanation as to why Flubber wasn't considering sheep's meta or had a reason to disagree with sheep. "The wagon is bad" is also a perfectly fine reason to disagree with the Flubber scumreads, but as I pointed out the wagon composition at that time consisted of mostly townreads of Hop's so it's hard to give credibility to that reasoning.

The meta Hop gave is also kind of lazy. There's more to Flubber's entrance than voting onto a large wagon, and plenty of people do the same when they enter games. It's a very NAI thing to attribute to meta as well. I don't know how strong Hop's meta skills are but it still doesn't seem like a read I would use to defend against a Flubber wagon when there's more to the push to dismantle.

With a confident enough read to just write "Flubber is town.", town!Hop would probably try to explain his perspective better rather than just state it as he caught up.

---

I thought you'd be more interested in HEM town.

Something about this line also felt kind of manufactured to me. I don't really think it'd be surprising if he read HEM one way or the other and from Hop's posting it's clear he didn't intend to push on him as well, so townreading HEM there seems reasonable. Yet, why would Hop thinks this deserves special attention? I would think it's more likely that scum!Hop put HEM in his townreads so that he wouldn't look overly defensive and wanted to make that clear, and that I would assume that if town!Hop felt the interaction was TvT&T he wouldn't be surprised about me finding the read normal because HEM would seem clearly town to both of us.

I also question the read's genuineness considering Hop was happy to discard it once pressure came towards HEM's way. I think that, besides basically everything Bu has pushed, this is definitely one of the more opportunistic changes in reads.

I think this and the Flubber townread are both weak points in his reads that show that they're disingenuous. Hop's townread of Flubber should have further addressed the points being given better, and his HEM read seems to reflect more on the gamestate than what someone in Hopkirk's shoes would actually feel.

---

I think without going in depth about the argument that was had earlier, these are the most important points that lead me to feeling confident about scum!Hop.

Essentially, we can see that he's reading the thread from a different perspective that isn't inquisitive, provided a poor defense for Flubber when he was first being wagonned, and has reads that seem unnatural.

Kat, my current understanding of your hopkirk scumread is a whiteknight of me and his egregious misunderstandings. I think both points are kinda blah.

If explaining why they're scum motivated better doesn't help clear that up or make the points better, then could you give your reasoning for listing him as your 3rd scumread?

After a short break I'm going to break down why HEM is town.

Your entire case here is literally that you don't know my meta.
I'm shading you because that's RVS. Pressure and see what happens.
You say how you think I'd approach Flubber. You didn't look for/ask for the game that I said I liked him because of. You again ignored how I'd actually approach it in favour of a model of what you think I'd do. I have literally no idea where the model is coming from. It's not that he was on the wagon, it's how he was initially as well as that he was.
I said NM was town.
Regarding HeM, I clearly reread. I've also flipped my thoughts again there and have him in neutral right now since it could lean either way.
There wasn't pressure on HeM. Flubber's case on him wasn't good.

[Hopkirk]

Sheep is town.
547 @Kat: If you can’t follow my thought processes whatsoever, and NM said it seems typical of how I play, then why are you working with how you’d approach it from my position?
HeM’s language style is somewhat aggressive, but this seems consistent with his tone in other threads, including non-mafia ones, so isn’t alignment indicative.
Kat’s towncase on HeM is also dependent on how he expects scum HeM to play/how he’d play. Hence, not a good case unless he has a lot of experience with HeM. Do you @Kat?

[Hopkirk]

top is scummiest. Bottom tier I don't really want to lynch today. Could be persuaded otherwise. Middle tier I don't have a particularly strong read on.

Bu
Sheep

Mozamis
Serg
Schism
DYKDW

HEM
Inter
Hopkirk
n_m
Flubber
Kat

The Bu wagon stalled kind of awkwardly and that intrigues me.

unvote, vote: Bu

Where are the townreads? It sounds like 2 scumreads, 6 maybe scum (since you could be persauded), 4 neutral (as no strong reads).

[Hopkirk]

Let's focus on Buj because I think this is a wagon that would either turn me into a town!Buj believer or increase my confidence that this is scum.

How do your reads change if he flips scum?

Bottom six are town reads and they're in order. It would be much harder to convince me of Kat lynch than it would be a Monkey or Inter lynch.

That makes much more sense than what I thought.

@Buj: Where am I in your reads right now?
@Kat: That’s the only RVS bandwagon I’ve been in that got to 5 votes. It similar tonewise for NM/Flubber. Did you look at the game and disagree, or not read it?
Looking at my towngames is probably better to work out how I scumhunt as town…

[Hopkirk]

Town lean, but highly dependent on flips/interactions.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber could be scum here.

[Hopkirk]

Moz seems like scum.
Given Serg/Intern/Moz are in my possible scum (though Serg/intern would move up if Bu flips town), this is going to be at worse a very informative lynch on town (at best a very informative lynch on mafia).
Still happy with it.

[Hopkirk]

Can someone hammer for real?

[Hopkirk]

I mean claim first obviously.

[Hopkirk]

I got the setup mixed up for a second. I do not want a hammer yet.
As far as i'm aware DYK isn't close to a lynch?

[Hopkirk]

UC isn't close to lynch.
Moz or Bu I want to decide between.

[Hopkirk]

I was reading another game thread that's open/effectively vanilla.

I want a claim from Bu.

[Hopkirk]

Can someone hammer for real?

I mean claim first obviously.

I got the setup mixed up for a second. I do not want a hammer yet.
As far as i'm aware DYK isn't close to a lynch?

if he’s vanilla, what does that tell you as a townie...?

there’s literally no use of a claim right now unless we’re lynching now

...so why would you want Buj to claim if you half-thought that it would be vanilla from the open game you were reading?

Are you two serious right now? 851 is clearly when I was mixed up witht the setup and 852 is where I remember.

[Hopkirk]

Are you two serious right now? 851 is clearly when I was mixed up witht the setup and 852 is where I remember.

I was talking to Monkey?

I don't understand what you mean? I was talking to HeM/Kat since I quoted them there.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber could be scum here.

This isn't what wanting to end the day looks like

Do you want me to go back in my iso to where I say your alignment heavily depends on flips?
I wouldn't consider lynching you today.

HeM could be with Bu. Know what the wagon was like when he got on it earlier. Nothing changes and he flips views.

[Hopkirk]

List of people who didn't want a BuJ lynch:

Monkey
Kat (?)
Moz

If there are more I don't remember.

Do you think these people are partners? If so why are you townreading them?

what? i've been pushing his lynch, i'm voting for him.
i said i'll happily change over to DoYou, because we need a lynch. But...no. Clearly i want a Buj lynch.

@Kat/HeM: Given you've expressed dislike for my comments around a lynch, do you feel the same about Moz- who you scumread?

[Hopkirk]

Objectively, Bu/HeM/Hop lynches tell us the most.

[Hopkirk]

okay i misremember moz not wanting the BuJ lynch

and NOW i REALLY dont want the BuJ lynch. I don't care if this implicates me if BuJ eventually flips scum. BuJ is NOT the best lynch here.

Explain.

[Hopkirk]

For some reason, we seem to be panicing. We have 8 days left. But i dont see why people are resistant ot a Buj lynch. The only guy on his wagon that looks scummy to me is Hop - and maybe i'm worng about that.
So lets lynch BUj.
And if not, Doyou is excellent compromise.

Doyou lynch tells us abolutely nothing.

[Hopkirk]

Because Moz is a scumread of mine and that's one more people I don't like pushing for another person's lynch that I also don't like. It doesn't make sense.

Also, Serg likes this BuJ lynch.

I'm just saying, the people who wants this BuJ's lynch will remain to be my scumreads anyway if ever BuJ flips town. If BuJ flips scum, nothing is gained because there are little or no associative tells to draw from. At least from how I'm seeing it.

Everybody pushing for the lynch, explain what you'll be getting if ever BuJ flips scum here. How does your reads progress?

How about a Moz wagon?
idk if you're already voting there.

If Buj flips scum then my scumpool goes down a lot. If he flips town it goes down a bit.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: DeWay

deway tells us nothing, too

You should vote me or Moz.

[Hopkirk]

See, I'm being painted like I'm a bully here but literally nothing in my language is hostile right now. Just straight up analysis.

You're ignoring most of what I say and don't seem to be analysing anything from my perspective.

[Hopkirk]

deway tells us nothing, too

decent chance of them flipping scum. that's kinda..the point, not info. UCV looked scummy.

Can you do a case on UCV?

[Hopkirk]

I notice you aren't wagoning Moz monkey.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Moz

[Hopkirk]

I notice you aren't wagoning Moz monkey.

lol i note your "scumread" of me only appeared since i scum read you.

@ Serip and Monkey - need you guys to drop the pissing contest, you are both town!

p-edit: and lol you now vote me! scummy bs

But there was never a point you townread me>
You scumread me after I went to bed the first night of the game. That was before page 10. In my catch up I said I found that suspicious.
You then posted more stuff.
I now scumread you after reading that stuff.
?

[Hopkirk]

Something like:
Town: Sheep/NM/Kat/Seph
Leaning town (due to POE from (and interacts with) scumreads): Flubber/UC
Neutral: Schism/Serg
Scumpool: Moz/Intern/HeM/Bu
Moz/Bu are not both scum there though.

[Hopkirk]

Hop, where did you get UC townlean and Flubber townlean from? Also why is Intern scum?

'Leaning town (

due to POE from (and interacts with) scumreads

): Flubber/UC'

Intern as scum due to lack of any reason to townread, early game play that I think I covered, and the way they've sit back on the sidelines of arguments. Not a lynch preference as there's much less interaction info from it (except making you/Flubber move up a tier if he flips scum).

[Hopkirk]

Moz gives as much info as Bu given Moz flipping scum would make Bu town.

[Hopkirk]

Your scumread on me only makes sense as conf.bias or scumonkey

[Hopkirk]

Monkey-I'm still debating whether you're town despite similar reasons to scumread you that you have me (greater from my perspective). You don't seem to be considering beyond that/updating the read.

Anyway, join me on Moz like you did on Bu. That went well for reads.

[Hopkirk]

Skimmed.
VOTE: Intern
Rem is town.

[Hopkirk]

UC feels pretty different to his usual activity/content rate.

[Hopkirk]

Am I counting wrong or did Serg hammer Bu on 30

Yeah - that was L-1 and I unvoted in response

VOTE: DYKDW

more of a placeholder but uc is definitely avoiding the thread at this point so this is a fine wagon while I think about bu

kind of reading whenever I have a moment but if it’s not clear I’m not paying close attention

I would prefer intent!

I'm fine with a claim and lynch at this point.

What changed from it being a placeholder?

[Hopkirk]

Still seems null to me. Don't see why we'd go for it over a wagon that tells us something and is on more likely scum.
Also Kat's really changed tune from anti-hammer.

[Hopkirk]

I should really start looking through ISOs.
Calling attention to a fake hammer is sillier than fake hammering in the first place.
Really interesting there's so much support for a policy lynch from Kat/HeM given their alleged scumreads.

[Hopkirk]

Upon looking again, Moz is a solid townread.

Let's put UC on L-1

we want to be a bit careful where UCV is concerned. He can wind some people up because he has strong opinions, and thus canbe lynch baity - he's not a sheep or a pleaser. So yeah, dont just lynch him cos he is different.

flub vs kat = tvs t

Do you want to lynch UC despite your thoughts?

[Hopkirk]

If he wanted a summary he'd ask for one. He was asking for an explanation of something he read

You're also ignoring the fact he's been online and posting elsewhere the past few days. He's ignoring the game deliberately.

An alternative explination for inactivity is that it has 45 pages in about 4 days.

it's not policy

It's because of inactivity. That's a policy lynch.

[Hopkirk]

Townreads or townleans on everyone except
Kat/Intern/Serg/Bujaber/UC
Going through some stuff

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: UCV is a null read. I'm arguing against lynching someone who has no AI posts. Pressuring an inactive just isn't useful.
Plus we lynch him and he flips town then tomorrow is the exact same scenario as today.


Intern/Kat/Serg seems plausible.

[Hopkirk]

Really need to work out if Bu is town. If so, votecounts make that team look really plausible. Also no real negative interactions across it.
Going through Bu's stuff now.

[Hopkirk]

Also, there will be like.. an NK.. so I don't think we're in square one. Do you really think that?

Does anyone in the game scumread Sheep/NM/Rem? It's obvious someone like you/me isn't going to be the nightkill here. There's plenty of targets mafia can easily pick that don't change the conversation.

He flips town, I check for scum in the wagon. If no scum in the wagon, I check for scum trying so hard to disassociate themselves from the wagon when it doesn't make sense to. Like you.

If he flips town, who's scum on the wagon?

[Hopkirk]

no AI posts.

Wrong

Clarify.

[Hopkirk]

why are you trying to work out d1 by teams?

if you're town you're just going to wind up confbiasing yourself - start by explaining how my play is scum motivated and let's work from there

like nothing about this change in thoughts feels organic but i dont see the harm in humoring you

Alternatively, I'll explain my thought when I'm ready. It's not like you've been open about detailing your read on me.

hop defending against the ucv lynch really does feel unnatural
am i the only one that scumleans seph

What's unnatural about 'lets vote scumreads instead of inactives'

[Hopkirk]

There's plenty of targets mafia can easily pick that don't change the conversation.

You know mafia doesn't want to change the conversation how??

Based on my townreads right now.
The focus is on you/me/HeM/Bu.
Haven't finished looking at Bu. If he seems town, they want the focus to remain on us. More specifically, me/Monkey. More likely to prefer thought revaluation to happen later.

[Hopkirk]

Also 'I have 4 independent scumreads, 3 would work well together/have poor interactions' is really different to 'this is definitely the scumteam so I'm equally happy with killing any of them since they're all definite scum'.

[Hopkirk]

In relation to Rem's comment above:
Kat has said of at least three seperate scumreads 'this is what I would do, you are not doing it, this makes you scum'. He's intentionally ignoring meta, even after the first time I called him out on it. That's not scumhunting, that's inventing reasons to scumread people.

Intern is UC but worse in every conceivable way.

[Hopkirk]

Everything from Bu except 451 seems like it could just be new town. He’s pretty consistent in approach, and reads a bit like he’s just struggling with the amount of content at the start. Bu has moved up to a townread for me.

[Hopkirk]

Intern really needs a lynch.

[Hopkirk]

Can we start lynching Intern yet?

[Hopkirk]

@BU: I've said this once, but I'll say it again. I am in GMT. I do not check the game threads past 10.30-11 unless in exceptional circumstances. I will never post at 3am.

I don't think there's any urgency in lynching hop. From my perspective I can't read him and his posts are sort of passive and neutral. If he's scum I don't think he'd be able to manipulate town into lynching someone of his choosing. But he's definitely a better lynch than lynching lurkers because he has posted enough where we could probably find some associative reads.

Weren't you townreading me?

Dictate my shot Im p sure

I don't see why we'd lynch UCV instead of shooting him. If you're town, or at least a SK willing to kill as town wants, then it's a much better idea to get a flip that gives us associations rather than a kill on an unclaimed null slot.

Can you recap me on what is AI about UC's behavior? If its meta I disagree.

He's had time to post and think about the game while being online and just... hasn't. At least Serg has some game advancing content, even if it's bad, and is also on v/la

But UCV isn't on v/la and has shown he's keeping up with the thread to some extent. Why are we getting nothing from him, then?

Lurking isn't AI, but actively choosing to lurk is scummy.

pedit: At this point I just want content. Post or perish.

ty

intern you should probably out a few vig targets - i dont know how i feel about a serg vig considering hopkirk is still around but i dont like leashing entirely because if you make good shots you might be able to prove you're not sk. i wouldnt oppose either

pedit: owo

Kat has me as his top scumread (except UC). Despite this he isn't pushing me. He's wanted wagons on other people but isn't trying on me for some reason.

[Hopkirk]

a hammer would be good.
but i'm less panicky than i was because this town has kept this lynch together for a while now, so i think we'll be good even i f we have to wait a bit longer.
if i dont make it, defintel ylynch hopkirk tomorrow. it's a very strong meta read.this isnt town hop.

You literally haven't played with me as town in a finished game, so either:
a.) You're scum and know this isn't true, or
b.) You're referencing an ongoing game.

Which is it? I already raised this point and you flat out ignored it.

i'll look into hop as soon as i can i guess
i think moz's meta read is somewhat reliable

This is scummy as fuck since I already brought up that Moz hasn't ever played with me as town, and I don't think you have either.

[Hopkirk]

Kat case will come if/when I have time, but I'm very busy at the moment, and it's pointless to rush it.

[Hopkirk]

a hammer would be good.
but i'm less panicky than i was because this town has kept this lynch together for a while now, so i think we'll be good even i f we have to wait a bit longer.
if i dont make it, defintel ylynch hopkirk tomorrow. it's a very strong meta read.this isnt town hop.

You literally haven't played with me as town in a finished game, so either:
a.) You're scum and know this isn't true, or
b.) You're referencing an ongoing game.

Which is it? I already raised this point and you flat out ignored it.

1) you were effectively town in that weird upick game (he was "effectively" town because he had a weird shapeshifting/morphing role that meant he became town and won with tthe town in the end)
2)i cant talk about it AND YOU KNOW THIS SO DONT MENTION IT AGAIN

this is why your scummy - you KNOW i have played with as you as town, and you are seriously trying to argue the toss, perhaps even get me in trouble with the Mod?! Thats not town.

MORE IMPORTANTLY YOU ARENT DOING SHIT TO GET ANYONE LYNCHED.
Contrast you with someone like Seph. He may or may not be convinced that Doyou is scum, but he wants a hammer, he is trying to push the game forward, he is CURIOUS for a flip.
All you do is vote for peop[le that are neve gettong lynched today, like me and Kat. You jumped off the Baj wagon as soon as got near a lynch.
You literally show no interest in lynching anyone.

Lets go over the game we're talking about here for those who didn't play it.

I was a third party. My role knew the names and abilities of every role in the game, but not who had them. There were two scum. Both scum had post restrictions that made them verifiable. I came out and revealed everything since I developed a breaking strategy for the (broken) setup. This was carried out and resulted in a win for the town, and me reaching my win condition.

At no point did this require any scumhunting whatsoever from me since I effectively knew who the scum were from the beginning of the game. It's clearly not a typical game, and Moz doesn't know my town meta since it was a case of resolving a breaking strategy, not scumhunting. He's also being very deliberately vague about how he thinks it compares.

He knows he has not played with me as town in a game where meta matters. It's as meta relevant as saying something like he's played chess with me would be to a mafia game.

'All you do is vote for peop[le that are neve gettong lynched today, like me and Kat. You jumped off the Baj wagon as soon as got near a lynch.
You literally show no interest in lynching anyone.'

This is insanely untrue.

I drove the Bu wagon, which is what I was on for most of the game. Can't say I wasn't interested in getting someone lynched. People (Kat) were complaining about me being too eager for the hammer on Bu...

Driving on HeM when it was tied for biggest wagon.

I was the third vote on intern and pushed for that. I stayed on him until it collapsed after the vig claim, and other people switching back to UC. Crazy to claim that's not someone who could get lynched.

(I also haven't voted for Kat like he claims, but no point engaging with reality, eh?)

Moz and Bu have to flip scum here.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Moz

[Hopkirk]

Moz is taking a game where I carried out a breaking strategy on a setup the mod afterwards admitted was broken. He is trying to use this as an example of my town meta. He is not aware of my scum meta, or my town meta in an actual game as that is the only game we've played together. Town cannot be that bad.

Bujaber is a very likely partner.

[Hopkirk]

Everyone needs to switch to hop then. What the fuck..

this is way too easily sold

Is there any doubt in your mind that moz is lying about this?

Pedit - oh ffs

It's like trying to meta someone based on played one game of town of Salem with them- while they're afk at the time. Given he has intentionally not specified

how

he thinks it's similar, he can't be serious.

'https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74351'
At the end, the mod says the game itself was basically a formality. Town literally couldn't lose unless they activily tried to. My entire posting past page 1/2 was resolving a breaking strategy from a state of perfect information.

Updated scumpool: Moz/Kat/Bu/Serg/Intern/UC

[Hopkirk]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=74351

[Hopkirk]

To note: from 31 in my iso onwards I'm talking funny because a post restriction stopped me using the letter 'e'.

I will vote Buj today if people aren't happy with Moz.

[Hopkirk]

@Kat: Haven't caught up yet. Posting as I read.

I wonder why nobody’s really commented on me/NM. I like NM too.

and an Hopkirk.
Played with twice when he was town and both times he was very active, proactive. it's early days but so far he has been lightweight.

I disagree with all three of these points.

Unless you're counting really old games (which either don't exist, or I've forgotten), we've only played one (completed) game together. I was third party playing protown and was more active because I had a succesful game breaking strategy that I needed to impliment. That required more words.

I disagree I didn't do anything in my first few posts. I got the UC wagon started which got us out of RVS and that/reactions to that are the cause of all the current wagons.

Also, I was the last post in thread as of when I went to sleep last night. I'm GMT.

149 Is where I first brought up Moz hadn’t played any games town-Hop. This was in response to 114 where he’d claimed to have played with town-Hop.

[Hopkirk]

Hammering before we get a replacement helps scum so lets not do that

Doyou is a replacement, and time is ticking by. We lynch tonight.
We have so much info for day 1 - th eamount of content is huge! We are good fro alynch.

p:edit - shit, have i missed that? has someone replaced in?

Since nobody else corrected Moz on this: Doyou isn't a replacement. It's UC playing under a different name.

[Hopkirk]

@1358: how does that make Moz more town to you? It's an intentionally (since he ignored the first time I refuted it) bad meta case. It's not a case of wrong/misguided- it's made with the intent of being misleading.
It is very unlikely I will be posting a scumcase on you before deadline as a.) time issues, b.) stronger lynch preferences c.) i don't see myself dying, so there's no urgency.
If you'd like to make a case on me as requested though, that would be nice.

[Hopkirk]

He has been online and posting in other games.

He has a past precedent of replacing out of games when they get too fast as town.

Don't provide excuses for him if they're not there - if he has an issue with the game length then he can voice that but he still has shown that he's reading along in his subsequent posts.

DYKDW is a big boy, I'm sure he can defend himself on his own. Especially considering his lynch is for more than just inactivity.

im here. it is almost lunch. i will post then

looking forward to it then - please actually play the games you sign up for.

Also, I'm surprised you had a change of heart on the ucv wagon. The timing now that they're close to replacement seems as though you just wanted the wagon to muddle vca and waste time.

VOTE: buj

he was like 1 hour from getting replaced - the point of the wagon is to emphasize that he's going to die if he doesn't post and if he's just getting replaced then it's moot

he's not getting replaced so i'm still very eager to lynch him

'the point of the wagon is to emphasize he's going to die if he doesn't post...'
'meta/general activity makes him likely to flip scum anyway.

can you pick one? These are mutually exclusive, and you denying the first when you said it wasn't a policy lynch.
Either you're happy to lynch him either way, or you aren't. You're saying conflicting things again.

[Hopkirk]

You also said around the time of the first quote:
'He's ignoring the game deliberately.'
and that you're fine with the hammer.

That doesn't seem much like 'pushing a lurker'.

Either you think he's scummy enough to lynch, or you don't think he's scummy enough to lynch.
Can you confirm, based on 1368, that it is the second- that you do not think he is

currently ]/i] scummy enough to be hammered right now, with caveats that this will change based on his posts, and when it gets closer to deadline.

[Hopkirk]

you mgiht as well not have an opinion on Kat, Hop. lmao

Eh, I mean there's no point posting a case at the moment since Kat isn't getting lynched today anyway.
Nobody's really commented on the inconsistencies I'm pointing out so they'd probably just skip high effort walls anyway.

[Hopkirk]

If I die you'll be suspicious.
If I don't die, I can post it.
So it doesn't matter what happens at night.


I have two people (Moz/Bu) more likely to flip scum.
No point unless they both claim verifiable prs.
So it doesn't matter what happens today.

[Hopkirk]

i dont think i'd ever night kill you which would mean you dying is a very obvious frame kill or a vig from intern so i dont think that's the case

To specify, I do mean a vig kill or something similar, not a mafia shot. I think you suggested Intern shoot me though?

[Hopkirk]

To specify, I do mean a vig kill or something similar, not a mafia shot. I think you suggested Intern shoot me though?

only because you're the slot other than dykdw that i think is most likely to flip scum right now

my preference is that he uses his reads and context to make the best shot

Yeah, so if he shoots me then I flip town and you look more suspicious.
If I don't get shot, I can post more.

[Hopkirk]

and if people dismiss this as a TvT?

Then the game should still last a while longer.

@UC: are you planning on claiming?

[Hopkirk]

'please tell me why i should claim'
I didn't say you should. I'm wondering if you know the current situation (which isn't clear from your first few posts)

Also you were in the Moz/Hop GI game too, so I'd like your thoughts there.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: bujaber

How about we decide who intern is killing before lynching?

Kop's read on intern going to town doesn't follow from her posts. Probably because she wants him to shoot where she wants.

[Hopkirk]

I agree Intern is effective conf.town.

VOTE: Hopkirk

on-wagon kill makes it very likely that was a town-motivated lynch

probably one scum on it but let’s start here

Please don’t rvs?

You should probably iso people or something? At least see for yourself why people are being voted

For clarification moz was a Mafia kill and intern vigged Bu - why do you think scum picked moz?

pedit: same lol I even made an “i’m townread blujabber meme”

Scumslip? I don't see how you know who Intern killed last night and who scum killed.
Yesterday, Intern said he would probably kill me/UC or maybe Bu/Moz- with less chance of the later two. Not killing me suggests to me that he didn't like the UC wagon- so didn't shoot me. It's plausible from there he shot Moz- who was on the wagon (also plausible he shot Bu, and it does make more sense for scum to shoot Moz to shade me, but not confirmed either way yet).

my issue rn is that i’m basically townreading everyone but hop for some reason or another

everything seems to point to him being scum so like I at least want to drive that wagon but there’s a blindspot somewhere and I need help trying to figure it out

Updated scumpool: Moz/Kat/Bu/Serg/Intern/UC

like I can’t look at this and think that he’s pushing on scum here ever

moz Bu intern and uc have all flipped town, I know i’m town, and i’m skeptical of a team that doesn’t at least tell serg what’s happening since rn he’s playing like lynchbait

maybe serg is getting bussed idfk but the way he handled the UCV wagon felt like he knew it was a ml

he long crossed the “he’s wrong town” horizon - his turn on me was really strangely timed and I don’t think town has that thought process ever

That is a misrepresentation of my positions. For starters, claiming those were final reads when

I explicitly didn't want the day to end and those were not final reads. I was still sorting 4/6 of those players.

Bu/Moz I had as town the day before. Bu I was pushing to sort, but those reads were clearly fluid.

Moz I had as scum at that point because he was attributing false meta to me. I was working at trying to determine why as of the lynch. I was leaning scum at the time on him because of that, but had not sorted him.

Intern I was unwilling to lynch as the claim seemed plausible. Clearly back to neutral.

UC was neutral/maybe leaning town due to the wagon on him. I said this clearly.

Serg/Kat I didn't like and still dislike.

Being skeptical of a team not telling Serg what happened is stupid too. Scum-Serg coming into the thread with that knowledge would look crazy suspicious. He wouldn't do that unless the team was bad. It wouldn't match his play whatsoever.

VOTE: Serg

[Hopkirk]

Need to reread in context, but current scumreads are Flubber/Kat/Serg/maybe sheep, while Rem/NM/HeM/Intern/Seph seem likely town. Will probably change.

[Hopkirk]

My activity is going to be very limited until thursday evening/Friday morning GMT, starting from later today. I might be able to post on wednesday.

[Hopkirk]

Today turned out a bit different to expected so I'm limited activity for tonight/tomorrow and none on thursday now. Still won't be able to do much rereading until friday or sat though.

Okay so Serg and Seph. Last partner may want to bus now. Is it Hopkirk or Rem? Hmmm.

I'm already voting him.

Need to reread Sheep/Kat/Serg/Flubber.

[Hopkirk]

I reread Flubber’s iso. It screams scum.

388 is terrible. He scumread UC/NM before that. Both lynchbaity. In 388 he drops both, focusing on scum on his wagon. He drops UC/NM completely after that. Barely mentions them whatsoever. Doesn’t try and interact with them or develop the reads. He also doesn’t take a significant stance on UC either way towards the end of the day. Consistency is off throughout. Tone is off throughout.

After this, he forms new scumreads on HeM, Buj, and me. I don’t like these because they’re me, flipped town, and one of my biggest townreads. Buj is also lynchbaity. HeM and me are arguing heavily at this point. Diverting attention from himself to us helps scum!flubber here. Crucially, he doesn’t make any effort to sort me after that. He mentions me around a dozen times after that. However, this is always talking about me. He doesn’t ask me any questions. The first time he quotes me is over sixty of him posts later. His question is just throwing shade. His next and last question to me is more shade. This isn’t what developing a read on me looks like. It’s opportunism. His entire approach is opportunism without a logical process of reads development.

Flubber’s sheep interactions want me to read sheep next.

[Hopkirk]

Sheep is townread because his posting is pretty uncontroversial. I read his iso. It’s uncontroversial because its passive. It’s commentary. There isn’t a single point where I can see him saying something that has a direct impact on the game other than the UC vote.

Sheep consistently scumreads and votes Flubber. He switches to UC. He townreads Flubber shortly afterward. This is not explained. In 1361, Sheep reads Flubber as more town than his prior townblock. Maybe equal to if I'm misreading it, but the point stands either way. I don’t follow his thought process here. Nobody seems to care.
Side point: someone disliked me saying ‘Flubber town’. I think it was either Kat or HeM. Whoever it was didn’t comment on Sheep’s flip on Flubber here. Doesn’t mean partners. It means Sheep is flying under the radar.

I hate Sheep’s comment about Moz having a strong meta read on me. He had no reason to assume that. It felt like a way to attack me by proxy. Sheep’s tone is inconsistent on me across the game. If mafia killed Moz, and Intern killed Bu, then the kill could make it look like I killed Moz. Sheep only sorting Bu overnight feels convenient when he seemed more uncertain on me. I get a general sense he’s positioning from this, and from the rest of his play.

@Intern: who did you vig?


In 1551, I feel like Sheep is trying to present his UC read as stronger than it was.

He voted in 803 because UC/DYK was avoiding the thread.
1054 is consistent. He's pushing for content. He'll unvote if UC acts town.
He switches to a scumread for DYK not producing content. DYK had clearly not fully caught up by this point. Scumreading DYK for avoiding the thread and not producing reads, then hammering while he's presenting reads, doesn't make sense.

Sheep says now, in 1551 that he scumread UCV for not reading the thread. He commented about UCV not reading the thread in the 803/1054 period, where UCV was avoiding the thread and hadn't posted. At this point, Sheep was willing to not vote UCV if there was town content from him or the slot. This doesn't match what Sheep is saying today- that he had a hard scumread from UCV avoiding the thread. The hard scumread develops after UCV came back. I feel like Sheep is engaging in revisionism today.

[Hopkirk]

Decided to take the V/LA off since there shouldn't be a 48 hour period where I can't post now. Still somewhat limited access- especially thursday, but I can post.

Sheep and Flubber are solid scumreads.

I'm going to try and look at Kat again now.

[Hopkirk]

If I leave aside interactions between Kat and me, then Kat definitely leans town.

I mainly disliked her push on me as it was 99% playstyle based, but she wasn’t trying to work out what my playstyle was. 447 and 547 show this. Her case on me is projecting what she’d do despite it being inapplicable to me. In 1030 she intends to look at my meta but doesn’t.

I too frequently treat scumreading me as a scumtell. I can see Kat as town after adjusting for confirmation bias. I could see her interaction with me as genuine from a town point of view, despite being backed by bad logic.

Moved to a townread on Kat after the reread.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flubber

I need to look at Sheep's meta and try to reread Seph at some point. Maybe sat/sun.

[Hopkirk]

That saves me the time of rereading I guess.

[Hopkirk]

If true obviously.

[Hopkirk]

Seph is obviously scum for hammering Seph since Seph was an obvious townie.

[Hopkirk]

It sounds like you're sure monkey is town. Can you make the case?

[Hopkirk]

I still don't get why you'd self hammer unless you're sure he's town.

[Hopkirk]

Lets lynch Sheep/Flubber tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

Speaking as the mylo mislynch target the scum obviously intent, I am sad you gave up.

[Hopkirk]

You still think he'll flip scum here?

Anyway, why not Flubber?

[Hopkirk]

Like how long has it been since I self-hammered, has a single one of you fuckers tried to do anything other than stand around with your dicks in your hands jerking hem off for his brilliant strategy of dont do shit but harass the only good scumhunter in the game?

Well initially I wanted to get your reads before the day ended, but since you said you're 'actively making moves to ensure town loses' so I'm not sure how reliable they'd be.

[Hopkirk]

Am I the only one thinking how funny it would be if HEM died and flipped VT?

[Hopkirk]

Btw, did you have a chance to look at my meta Kat?

[Hopkirk]

Nah, I wouldn't do it either when the day could end at any point and might get nightkilled before I can post conclusons.

Despite my earlier thoughts, I now think Kat and HeM are town. Scum are sitting on the sidelines here and letting town kill itself.

[Hopkirk]

So I'm thinking 3 scum within Flubber/Sheep/Serg (fire)/NM.

[Hopkirk]

If you'd waiting another day before self hammering, my V/LA would have ended and I'd have been able to post about why I didn't like the lynch.

[Hopkirk]

I don't like Sheep's approach this twilight period compared to HeM/Kat/me.
Popped in, reanswered something he'd already responded to, hopped out without wanting to get involved in the current interactions. Fits with under the radar feel I'm seeing.

@Seph: did you claim in the end?

[Hopkirk]

Like I clearly stated that if the wagon continued and the ultimatum remained I wouldn't do my reread.

I like how your response to an ultimatum was giving an ultimatum.

[Hopkirk]

Hey Sheep, do you still believe in the wagon, and who do you think is scum on it if anyone?

[Hopkirk]

Hey Sheep, do you still believe in the wagon, and who do you think is scum on it if anyone?

what wagon is this referring to

The Seph one.


@HeM: You mentioned earlier Serg had scum games. Was this a mistake, or is there a second one I'm missing. I kind of want to read one that isn't 140 pages.

[Hopkirk]

like fmpov if monkey is town then seph was literally lynched entirely by town

which is believable but still

i think this makes hopkirk look worse if that's the case, he always felt as though he was in the sidelines the whole time and pushing things that are obviously not going through

probably will be time to meta him for real but econ hw lmfao

Pushing things that weren't going through?
I was pushing Sheep/Flubber yesterday. As 2105- that I'm quoting- you had them both as scum.
They didn't go through because a.) nobody even bothered looking at/responding to my cases (except Sheep on his) and b.) Town were focused on another stupid lynch.

I'll claim when HeM asks me to.

[Hopkirk]

Or Rem. Hem and Rem are the most town here.

[Hopkirk]

Only VT.
Fire could be town or scum.

[Hopkirk]

I'm leaning toward scum still though.

[Hopkirk]

Kat is likely town still, so I'm working in Fire/Flubber/Sheep/NM and trying to find a town in there.

[Hopkirk]

Though I can still see Kat as possible.

Want me to vote fire with you Monket?

[Hopkirk]

Would scum Kat point out the issue with Fire's claim?

[Hopkirk]

like fmpov if monkey is town then seph was literally lynched entirely by town

which is believable but still

i think this makes hopkirk look worse if that's the case, he always felt as though he was in the sidelines the whole time and pushing things that are obviously not going through

probably will be time to meta him for real but econ hw lmfao

UC and Seph had no reason to back them up. Just because you liked them and got conf.biased that doesn't make them town-motivated/good.

I'd vote Fire now. Flubber/Sheep/NM I'd want more on first.

[Hopkirk]

UC: Sheep/NM could be scum.
Seph: Fire/NM could be scum.

[Hopkirk]

POE.
What makes you think he's town.

[Hopkirk]

I could vote either, he was just the first name to jump out at me when I looked at the alive list

Plus he's willing to vote me here despite having me as town before.

[Hopkirk]

Please don’t vote fire yet :/

Hop why is Rem amongst your strongest townreads if yesterday you were saying scum were likely in the sidelines during Seph’s lynch?

Sidelines doesn't mean they weren't on the lynch, just that they weren't driving things in new directions.
I really liked how Rem took stances on every significant issue when they entered the game. Showed a good thought process while doing it too.

Hopkirk has been wobbling between null and scum for me + his reread had some really bad holes in it so I wanna popcorn there

Why didn't you do that yesterday?

[Hopkirk]

Lock towns/effective: HeM, Kat, Rem.
Scumpool: Fire, Sheep, Flubber, NM.

[Hopkirk]

Locktown for today.

[Hopkirk]

She died down from V/La.
I want to hear what she has to say today, assuming she doesn't stick hard to NL.
By locktown, I mean I'm not considering voting her today unless unexpected stuff.

[Hopkirk]

Actually she was more in support of the UC lynch than I thought.

[Hopkirk]

My Rem read is 'most town out of a bunch of scummy/null people'. You're acting like it's 100%.

[Hopkirk]

Which follows since I've made cases for Monkey/Flubber, and mentioned why I dislike Fire/NM.

[Hopkirk]

For today

.

Consistent.

[Hopkirk]

Final guess is 3 of Kat/Flubber/Sheep/Fire.
Seemed pointless to put any work into narrowing it down any further.
I expect to be lynched and it to be postgame by the time I wake up tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

Other than Seph and maybe Bu, I can't see any town who played this game well at all.

[Hopkirk]

Since nobody else cares about this game enough to read through it, I won't be either. Town deserves the loss whoever it is.

[Hopkirk]

It seems pointless when everyone has me as scum and doesn't seem interested in explaining why.

[Hopkirk]

Like yestersay I went through Flubber and made a case. Flubber was the only one who looked at it and he didn't respond beyond basically saying 'lol' which nobody cared about for some reason.

[Hopkirk]

Disagreement with cases doesn't make me scum.

[Hopkirk]

I haven't seen any claims except Fire's fakeclaim?

[Hopkirk]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'M SCUM FOR NOT INTERACTING WITH INACTIVE SLOTS

Except you didn't respond to anything in it.

[Hopkirk]

I reread Flubber’s iso. It screams scum.

388 is terrible. He scumread UC/NM before that. Both lynchbaity. In 388 he drops both, focusing on scum on his wagon. He drops UC/NM completely after that. Barely mentions them whatsoever. Doesn’t try and interact with them or develop the reads. He also doesn’t take a significant stance on UC either way towards the end of the day. Consistency is off throughout. Tone is off throughout.

After this, he forms new scumreads on HeM, Buj, and me. I don’t like these because they’re me, flipped town, and one of my biggest townreads. Buj is also lynchbaity. HeM and me are arguing heavily at this point. Diverting attention from himself to us helps scum!flubber here. Crucially, he doesn’t make any effort to sort me after that. He mentions me around a dozen times after that. However, this is always talking about me. He doesn’t ask me any questions. The first time he quotes me is over sixty of him posts later. His question is just throwing shade. His next and last question to me is more shade. This isn’t what developing a read on me looks like. It’s opportunism. His entire approach is opportunism without a logical process of reads development.

Flubber’s sheep interactions want me to read sheep next.

If you think that stands, it still only addresses the first 1/3.
I don't think it stands.

[Hopkirk]

Actually I was planning to go through games tonight anyway so I might as well look at a scumgame from everyone.

[Hopkirk]

@HeM or Kat i think: Can you point out the 'town perspective' stuff from Flubber.

[Hopkirk]

That's what I'm reading- 699

[Hopkirk]

Oh nice this game has a Rem sub in.

[Hopkirk]

Wow, Sheep not mentioned how different Rem's sub in was in that game is striking.

[Hopkirk]

Okay wow, if Sheep flips scum Rem is scum too.

[Hopkirk]

Oh hey, Rem's iso doesn't mention Sheep.

[Hopkirk]

Finish reading. Summary of Sheep's scum game coming. Just a quick and interesting quote from Sheep's scumtopic though...

'im just going to sit back and watch town kill themself'

[Hopkirk]

Sheep busses his partner in RVS and stays there. He comes in sporadically and doesn’t really comment on anything. I get the impression he was reading the thread but not commenting on it. The things he does say here don’t lead anywhere. He avoids the main discussion while nitpicking on one brief appearance. He’s still bussing when there’s two decent wagons. There’s a loud town v town debate going on. It’s L1 and Sheep hasn’t commented. He comes back and doesn’t weigh in on it. He focused on a minor player instead. Doesn’t vote them though.

He comes back later again and says he likes everyone on the main wagon except Transcend. He doesn’t comment on the person being wagoned. He moves off his partner a bit later. He votes Mutant. It’s Mutants first game. Sheep had townread him earlier, but switches when Mutant makes a bad post. Havingfitz scumleans on Sheep for being under the radar. He can’t remember anything important coming from Sheep’s stuff. Sheep responds after a long break. Beetlejuice? He starts a wagon on one of the louder players and his two partners join him. They’ve all been ‘against’ the main wagon up to this point. He unvotes Trans right after Trans gives a 100% wrong readslist. Shortly afterwards, town is mislynched while Sheep isn’t voting anyone. Sheep subs out without posting in the thread about it- though it doesn’t seem tactical.

Sheep specified in the scumtopic his lurking was intentional.


Rem’s part in the game: She subs into the game where there’s loud debate going on. She’s town. She doesn’t read through and summarise the game. The only read I can see is on Sheep. She scumreads Sheep without justifying it. She gives little content of note.

[Hopkirk]

I think that’s Sheep’s only scumgame. His posting there was low quantity, low content. His posting here is high quantity, low content. It makes sense he’d try and put out more stuff. He says more here, but it’s not memorable. He’s avoiding the loud debates like before. He’s voted for all three easy mislynches (UC/Intern/Seph). Matches his Mutant vote, but doesn’t match reluctance to get in votes otherwise.

It matches his scumplay in terms of approach to the game.

[Hopkirk]

A skim of 1829 purely looking at style but not content looks a lot more like this game.

[Hopkirk]

Btw: Since Sheep has two votes on him already, I can't be scum with HeM or Rem unless Sheep is also scum since QHs could happen there.

[Hopkirk]

Idk and I'm going to bed now.
You should take a look at it.

[Hopkirk]

Hey Kat, how do you think my town play compares to the other one?

[Hopkirk]

I have a kind of bitter sense of annoyance/motivation.
Scum are lurking. The problem is that half the town is too.

[Hopkirk]

I feel like hammering.

[Hopkirk]

Sheep/Flubber/Rem isn't plausible?

[Hopkirk]

I am also still uncomfortable with Kat.

[Hopkirk]

Flubber makes two points in 68/70 about Sheep being slightly scummy then doesn’t mention Sheep until 470. In 503 he doesn’t like that you’ve switched your read on Sheep from very town to possible scum. He repeats this point about eight times. He doesn’t interact with Sheep directly- i.e. doesn’t ask Sheep any questions. Doesn’t mention a read on Sheep after 70.

That's pretty hard distancing. Doesn't interact with Sheep, interacts around Sheep against you.

[Hopkirk]

Sheep is basically just 'I'm fine with a Flubber wagon', but doesn't comment on any of Flubber's play.

[Hopkirk]

Humor me, Hop.

Why would scum try to bus in MYLO?

To laugh at town: Sheep, HeM, Hopkirk scumteam.

Seriously? If they're really really bad at coordination so can't do the mylo well then it's probably better for them to reduce their numbers if they think it'll still be mylo tomorrow/think we don't have prs.

[Hopkirk]

Quicklynch is easier in odd numbers too. Kind of makes Rem a bit more suspicious in that regard.

[Hopkirk]

brb, checking previous games North has played to see if it's in any of them.

[Hopkirk]

Most of her games aren't useful info here, but she played a game mid November with an Encryptor. She definitely knew what it was before making the setup, and there was a rule in that one about them- albeit slightly differently worded. It was also open though.

[Hopkirk]

Also just reread the rules and saw the game was confirmed to be 10v3. I don't remember any of us discussing that after Intern claimed and several people thought there could be a serial killer ingame.

[Hopkirk]

this role is somewhat confirmable

VOTE: dykdw
idc if there is scum rber or smth; if there's no second kill after n1 or n3 that you can claim w/o cc's youre getting lynched

SKs are a thing you guys nothing about that claim is towny

sk's in mini normals usually make some ppl hate the mod i think

First parts sounds kind of like Sheep has read the rules and knows there's no SK but doesn't correct you/Kat on it.

[Hopkirk]

Makes me townread Kat a bit more than before actually. Doesn't look like she's faking not knowing SKs exist and mafia are probably more likely to share that kind of stuff.

[Hopkirk]

Seems like there should be more prs than there are.

[Hopkirk]

Seems like there should be more prs than there are.

why do you say so

Skimming finished games. I'd have thought there'd be a fourth one.

[Hopkirk]

Phone.
Hammer good Monkey?

[Hopkirk]

Sleeping.

[Hopkirk]

I don't get how there'd be debate between Hop/Flubber as Sheep's partner.
I've been attacking/casing Sheep since yesterday. Flubber/Sheep have been mutually ignoring each other all game without explination.

[Hopkirk]

NM is probably town here after looking at games.