Newbie 2010: Pride Month | Game Over

[Raya36]

VOTE: Homura for being our replacement

[Raya36]

Hey Elmo!

Question for everyone:

• Is gibus scum?

[Raya36]

• Is gibus scum?

Maybe

Scum claim
go go.

VOTE: Gibus

This is a wagon I can get behind. Now if only I could vote without bringing it to L-1. One of our two scums between Ghost and Umlaut will have to unvote so I can join the wagon

[Raya36]

Thank you Elmo. Now I can be on scum's wagon.

VOTE: gibus

[Raya36]

This is a wagon I can get behind. Now if only I could vote without bringing it to L-1. One of our two scums between Ghost and Umlaut will have to unvote so I can join the wagon

Thank you Elmo. Now I can be on scum's wagon.

VOTE: gibus

Jokes?

I never joke

---

• The lack of a warm welcome worries me.

Then may I welcome you warmly to the game

[Raya36]

@Raya: Thank you for the warm welcome. What's the most efficient way to consume time?

In the context of mafia through making cases and wagons and pushing players to get a reaction out of them.

[Raya36]

{ Grego | Amu | Melena | Talum | Busi | Aya | Swan | Norati}

What is this?

[Raya36]

@Raya: Thank you for the warm welcome. What's the most efficient way to consume time?

In the context of mafia through making cases and wagons and pushing players to get a reaction out of them.

No, it's by eating a clock. Your answer is cool too though.

What did I say. I never joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Raya36]

I townread Snowblaze from meta. Her entrance aligns her towngame and isn't like her scumgames. She also fakes early reads as scum, sometimes confident ones even. Her not having any right now is town-indicative.

What pinged you about her just now, Elmo?

I also have an early townread on snowblaze based on tone

[Raya36]

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

[Raya36]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

[Raya36]

Just an FYI: Just because I label one of your posts as scummy does not necessarily mean that I think you're scum. Town also makes scummy posts all the time. It does mean, though, that I would be asking for clarification/intent/context behind the post to get a better indication of alignment. Umlaut explains their reasoning satisfactorily.

This sounds like trying to hard to sound towny.

[Raya36]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

Pi can you answer this?

[Raya36]

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

[Raya36]

Strong town vibes from Ganster's 85.

And this is where I strongly disagree.

[Raya36]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

Pi can you answer this?

It is not scum-oriented to jump on the biggest wagon. Town does that but only when they have a good case to push. Umlaut's post 27 of bringing someone to L-2 with the reasoning of "bigger wagons are nicer," especially after already putting down an RVS vote, seemed more likely to come from scum than from town, even if minorly so. And hence, gibus, why I find it to not be NAI.

@gibus: To me, a vote is "opportunistic" if the person casting the vote already has a vote on someone else, but decides to switch over to a bigger wagon with the same/worse justification of voting the bigger wagon compared to the one they already voted.

Why does town only do that when they have a good case?

[Raya36]

@Raya, how did your read on pie progress?

I'm getting the general vibe that they're not used to how RVS works on this site yet and reading too much into an RVS wagon. So I'm not seeing an agenda being pushed. Also the meta reads on them are making me lean town as well

[Raya36]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?

[Raya36]

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused

[Raya36]

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

Where are you seeing "scumread nearly everyone" from? Post seems like general thoughtposting with both town and scum reads.

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

[Raya36]

Feel one of Snow and Elmo is scum.

Can you explain this a bit more?

[Raya36]

@Ghost Ganster: Homura has been relatively inactive as town in previous games.

This is likely not going to be popular, but I don't care too much if they're town. Giving lurkers a pass is bad, in my opinion, even if meta is at play. It's just too good for scum.

She has yet to even vote, randomly or not.

@Homura, what are your scum-reads? Do consider using your vote as well, please.

So do you consider lurkers as policy lynches?

Can you explain what "policy lynches" means, sorry?

A policy lynch is when you lynch someone because they're a lurker or a toxic player (as a couple examples) and not because you think they are scum. You are simply lynching them because you don't want them in the game regardless of alignment.

[Raya36]

Why is it scum oriented to jump on the biggest wagon?

Pi can you answer this?

It is not scum-oriented to jump on the biggest wagon. Town does that but only when they have a good case to push. Umlaut's post 27 of bringing someone to L-2 with the reasoning of "bigger wagons are nicer," especially after already putting down an RVS vote, seemed more likely to come from scum than from town, even if minorly so. And hence, gibus, why I find it to not be NAI.

@gibus: To me, a vote is "opportunistic" if the person casting the vote already has a vote on someone else, but decides to switch over to a bigger wagon with the same/worse justification of voting the bigger wagon compared to the one they already voted.

Why does town only do that when they have a good case?

I think it would be most probable for town to only vote for someone and bring them close to a lynch (like L-2 or L-1) if they 1) actually think the person is scum to avoid something like an early hammer or 2) does so to get information. They'd need a good explanation in either case, whether it be to convince other people to move their vote over or to explain the reasoning behind the information they're getting out of putting someone at, for example, L-2.

I agree with this for late game. But we were still getting out of the RVS phase. It is very common here for a wagon to be formed to get out of RVS, usually by joke reasons which lead to real suspicions.

[Raya36]

Thank you! How about I only promise to troll on even posts? Odd posts will be completely, utterly, deadly serious.

What site do you come from, and do you think anything alignment-indicative has happened so far?

I'd rather not say what site, sorry. It's not for mafia-related reasons, though.

As for alignment-indicative things (and I'll list some things that are very borderline, here, just to further discussion, get more opinions and reactions):

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

I'm curious about the newbies' past experience with Mafia here. Is this your first game? Did you play on another site first? Have you already played a game with anyone else in this one?

I played somewhat frequently for a while, a few years ago, on another site where mafia was more serious business than here. Or maybe it's just that the days were shorter so the levity lasted less by necessity? Either way, I'm still getting used to all the jokes, the in-site references and such. That was a one-way-ticket to lynch-town where I used to play! XD

Would you consider any of the joking to be AI in this game so far?

I answer this a little above, but to add something perhaps more precise, I'd say that hinting and muddying the waters is a surprisingly effective scum strategy, in my experience (it works in real life too! ).

It's concerning that you have reasons to scumread nearly everyone on the playerlist

I don't get why this is concerning. Can you explain? To me, it looks like Ghost is just commenting on anything he finds to be AI. Just because someone does something scummy does not mean they're scum, because just everyone, regardless of their alignment, does scummy things. If there's things Ghost finds to be especially towny he's noting that as well. That post looks like Ghost is finding things other people are doing that are scummy/towny, but it doesn't look like he's actively forcing those explanations to scumread people, and I don't think he's actually scumreading over half of the playerlist.

This is a very town response. If Pi was scum I would expect them to either agree with me and scumread ghost or disagree with me and scumread me for pushing ghost or something. Instead Pi says that while something may appear scummy it doesn't mean the player is scum. This is a very towny outlook and with no scum agenda being pushed.

I already explained a bit a few posts up but essentially I'm worried that ghost is either trying to look busy without taking a solid stance on anyone or they're starting to set-up mislynches and keeping their options open.

[Raya36]

Raya, do you have any scumreads?

ghost as my scumread right now. Pi is my strongest townread as well.

Which reminds me I should do this:
VOTE: Ghost

[Raya36]

Quite a few. I still haven't sorted most of the list. I generally don't this early in a game either

[Raya36]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

The 36 is simply just my favourite number from when I was super young

[Raya36]

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused

I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?

Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first

[Raya36]

Not sure how to feel about Raya's white-knighting me in 105. It seems from the next post that they don't actually think Pi is scum so I'm not sure what else that post could be trying to accomplish. Still leaning scum on Pi notwithstanding Snow's meta point there, also Elmo after that ridiculous push on Snow. Ganster is still my favorite for town.

Are you sure you meant 105? I'm a bit confused

I meant 105, yes (but not so much in itself as because it's continuing to pursue the line of discussion starting with 76). You say Pi is town so you're not claiming his reasons are disingenuous, you're just trying to dissuade him from scumreading me. I don't think I've yet done anything so obvtown as to warrant that kind of defense, so where's it coming from?

Oh I see what you mean. I was never trying to dissuade him from scumreading you. I was just trying to get a better read on Pi. Which I did. I wasn't even thinking about you when asking it which is why I was confused at first

And to add to that I don't think you're town or scum at the moment. Just null. I'm not trying to push Pi's read in any direction regarding you

[Raya36]

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

I'm glad you cleared that up for me

[Raya36]

If you list all the players with a reason towards being scum (or unhelpful) you get:
Elmo
Raya
Hectic
Snowblaze
Piisirrrational

That's 5/8 players that Homura has to get a read on.
(There were some town points for some of the list too but it's still concerning since scum can do this to keep their options open or to look busy without making any committed reads)

You were referring to Ghost here?

Yes

[Raya36]

Raya, thoughts on Ghost's push on me?

It's pretty bad to push a policy lynch on a lurker 5 pages into a game. The game has barely even started. I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one.

[Raya36]

First, the list came from a question about alignment-indicative things, which is not at all the same as scumreads. Second, unhelpful doesn't equal scum, and you had to specify it yourself so you know this as well, so your initial concern of me having too many scumreads should already be moot, and your list should go from 5 to 3 players (Elmo, Raya and piisirrational). Finally, like you mentioned as well, there were town points for 2 of those 3 as well in my list (Elmo and Raya) and this is in fact reflected in my later list of preferred lynches.

What do you mean with "that Homura has to get a read on"? How was she relevant in this?

1. I use the word scumread since they're all reasons towards a scumread. I don't mean to imply that you scumread them. They're reasons to scumread.
2. I included unhelpful because to my understanding you're using that as a reason to lynch players as well.
3. I explained why I'm still concerned about that. It's an easy way for scum to look busy without taking a stance.

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

This seems like it contradicts itself in a way. You say scum!piisirrational would have more likely agreed with your and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you, instead of writing what they did, which would make that post a candidate for "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", which is then (essentially) the reason you're voting for me. Also how do you still post this,

I think you misinterpreted. I took a solid stance. Pi is town. I was just explaining why they arent scum when I said what scum!Pi wouldn't do.

after liking piisirrational post, which comments on how my list was of AI-things and not scumreads and that scummy things can be found in town players as well?

This is irrelevant. What Pi said was very town-indicative because no scum agenda was pushed and that was very clear. Your list of reads does not read the same.

Most importantly though, Raya, instead of "being wary" (which is conveniently vague) of that list of mine, why don't you go over its points and tell us what you think about them specifically? Even if it's just "this doesn't make sense to me", "this is scummy" or "this I could agree with", wouldn't that be so much more useful for everyone than just stopping at suspecting the whole thing?

I can do that later when I have my laptop if you want

[Raya36]

So you're saying that it was a typo and the sentence should have read "That's 5/8 players that Ghost has to get a read on", right? I still don't understand it. And what you later say to explain it, so this,

I'm just starting that there are 8 players total for you to get a read on so its ?/8 people you scumread.

doesn't make sense, either, unless I'm being stupid (which could be, sorry).

Oh I didn't even catch the typo. That's what I get for phone-posting.
I mean that from the playerlist there are 8 players total you need to read. (Not 9 because you know yourself). All I'm saying is you listed scum reasons for 5/8 players.

First, it's lynch-voting, which I explained in the post in which I did it, is also a great way to pressure the lurker in question to stop lurking and being more active. But even ignoring the fact we disagree on the premise, how do you explain that I didn't push another, then? Elmo's, for example?

What do you mean exactly by lynch-voting? I agree with pressuring the lurker, that's a good reason to vote. But don't you think it would be better to vote the lurker based on something they said or just the fact that they're not posting context rather then outright state you want to policy-lynch them?

What do you mean by the second part? How do I explain that you didn't push another scumread?

Ok. So with point 1 you're saying that having "3 reasons towards a scumread" was too many at that point in time?
And with 3, is it really? Basically the options seem to be:
1) give scum/townreads for all players
2) give scum/townreads for the majority of players
3) give scum/townreads for the minority of players
4) give scum/townreads for 1 player
5) don't give scum/townreads
How would you rank them based on most to least concerning? And I did take a stance, and even made a list of preferred lynches. Isn't that taking more of a stance than most if not all other players?

Well there were 5 different players with negative points towards them and I do think that's a lot this early.
Your list is showing different amounts of reads. I'm talking about specifically scumreads. Get rid of the word town from your list and I would rank it 1, 2, 5, 3/4
It is true that you took a stance with your lynch order list.

Ah, sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm saying that piisirrational's post that you liked was more of a case of "looking busy without taking a solid stance on anyone", exactly for the reasons that you stated you would have expected scum to say, as in "agreed with you and scumread me or disagreed with you and scumread you".

Ah, I see now. The problem here is that you're not looking at the reason I'm townreading Pi for that. I'm townreading them because they clearly have no scum agenda in a place that scum should have some sort of agenda. The fact that they aren't taking a stance in this case points towards them being town because as scum it would be easy to push either me or you (if you're town) from that interaction. I don't see scum commenting on the interaction and not using it to their advantage. I never said not taking a solid stance is always scummy. It's case by case. I found it scummy in your case and in Pi's case it indicated town.

Are you saying that you think that scum-hunting and lynching are a scum-agenda?

Pushing mislynches is scum-agenda. And Pi didn't push either of us. He even said that you were scummy but that doesn't make you scum . Scum doesn't say that about a town player. Scum would say you were scummy so that makes you scum and join me and push for your mislynch. So assuming you aren't partners then I don't think Pi is scum.

I would appreciate it, thanks.

I'll start working on it then

[Raya36]

-Umlaut's voting, mirroring and immediately following mine twice, looks so fishy that they actually feel like town (like "scum wouldn't do this", which is a faulty assumption, but you get where I'm coming from, I think).

-It can be a bit dangerous to get a town read from a post simply because you totally agree with it, but that's what's happened when I read Umlaut's post just now.

Umlaut seems to be your townread right now.

-I'm generally wary of statements of facts that in actuality are opinions, so #30 (Elmo's post), looks slightly scummy, even if it's a joke (which is not clear to me).

-Elmo's following post was scummy as well. Not the vote itself, but the lack of an explanation and especially the one-liner used ("You can't make Lylo"), which I find very weird to say at this stage of the game.

-Elmo's post, #69, gives me town vibes. I'm not sure I agree with it (unless here scum often makes very early hammers happen and gets away with it later?), but it's something that's worth noting in general and in a newbie game especially, and I don't think scum would do it. I feel that he could have found/bullshitted other reasons to explain his vote on Snowblaze in that case.

-Elmo's posts #78 and #79, go back to irk me, simply because I would say the wagon

was

still random voting, because at the end of the day it was based on gibus' scumclaim joke. Maybe we just have a different definition of it, though? I would be interested in knowing. Personally, I would equate random voting with "baseless", and I would include joke-votes under "baseless" as well. Am I off here?

On Elmo you go back and forth which is ok since this is just thought posting. But it does show not taking a solid stance for sure and the back and forth could definitely be busywork from scum. That's why I'm concerned about it. You have 3/4 points being towards scum.

-Raya answering your question about the most efficient way of "consuming" time as town, and then not doing it, basically at all, is slightly scummy as well.

-Raya's questions and especially the prod to get an answer (so mainly post #82) gives me a town vibe.

Same thing for me. You have a point for me being scum and then a point for me being scum.

-Your inside joking/weird hinting/trolling makes me very paranoid that I'm just not gonna be able to get a read on you and/or that I'll get annoyed at you, which will affect my opinion of you in an unhelpful way. I think being useful and cooperative is a good town trait, and in the vast majority of cases, not being so is either scummy or just good for scum.

-Your post, #68, is helpful but worded scummily, or at least the lack of an acknowledgement that you and Umlaut could both be scum is.

This is where you call Hectic scummy and also unhelpful (which is why I put unhelpful in brackets in my post earlier). To my understanding you're pushing him for being unhelpful since you say he's scummy/helping scum.

-Snowblaze having exactly zero reads... I wouldn't say it's necessarily indicative of an alignment, but once again it's unhelpful, so it does raise my suspicions. I'm of the opinion that having bad reads (whatever "bad" means) is better than having none, so I personally would

force

myself to get some (if you get what I mean) in her shoes. Thankfully I'm paranoid enough that it's never going to happen, most likely. XD

You say Snowblaze not having any reads isn't alignment indicative then you say that's not helpful. And not being helpful raises your suspicions therefore you think Snowblaze is sus for something you state is NAI. You contradict yourself. So if this gains traction you can keep pushing this point towards them being scummy. If it doesn't you can use the exact same point to call them town if need be.

-Tonally, everything piisirrational in this last page feels like scum. I can't really put my finger on why, or at least, I don't know how exactly to explain it. Ironically enough, I think it's something about the need to explain, over-explain or needlessly explain (and not making a great job of it).

This is ok I guess. Not a great explanation so I don't understand the reasoning exactly but you said it's hard to explain.


Plus your scumread/push on Homura in the next post.


So you scumread from my understanding of this post:
-Elmo (3/4 points towards scum)
-Me (1/2 points towards scum)
-Hectic (2/2 points scummy/unhelpful)
-Snowblaze (1/1 points unhelpful which isn't scummy but makes you sus which contradicts itself)
-Pi (1/1 points towards scum)
-Homura (next post)

So that leaves Umlaut who you only had town reasons for and gibus who you never mention in this post or at all besides your RVS vote yet is 4th on your lynch list (so I assume you scumread him too?)

so that's 6/8 or 7/8 players you scumread and the only player you appear to townread is Umlaut.

[Raya36]

What's making you change your mind on Snow?

[Raya36]

I'd be interested to hear that town lean explained more actually.

Do you think scum would force a town read on me?

[Raya36]

Do you think scum would force a town read on me?

I don't know, but in Snow's case it doesn't match her paranoid tone (56,90)

She did call is a very slight town lean though or something along those lines. It still came across as wary to me.

[Raya36]

I'd be interested to hear that town lean explained more actually.

Do you think scum would force a town read on me?

Yes. You tend to be a hard person for me to read.

I honestly thought I was pretty easy to read

[Raya36]

Yes, and I explained it in the post in which I actually vote for her. And with the second part I mean: you say it looks like I'm setting up mislynches and if any gained traction I would have pushed that one. So I'm asking you: how do you explain that I didn't do it, then? How do you explain that I didn't push Elmo's when it gained traction? Or perhaps Snowblaze's or piisirrational's?

I can't explain it and that probably means I'm wrong. UNVOTE: Ghost

Scummy is different from unhelpful, but unhelpful is good for scum. It follows that scum likes it when people are unhelpful and is on average more likely to be unhelpful as well. There's no contradiction there. And to say that I could use that to call them town looks very dishonest, because as you pointed it out yourself, I said it's either NAI or suspicious. There is absolutely no room for me to townread them with it.

To be clear I don't mean townread them with specifically that point. I mean townread them in general later without that point holding you back.

[Raya36]

(In response to your next post, I am most definitely town or scum)

I'm glad you cleared that up for me

Not so fast. If I've learnt one thing about Umlaut over the years, it's that he's incredibly deceptive and will lie 90% of the time, as any alignment. Don't rule him out as a mere town or scum just yet.

Hm well if he lies 90% of the time then chances are he isn't town or scum! He must be a fool! Don't lynch Umlaut!!

[Raya36]

Since I lie 90% of the time you should just assume the opposite of everything I say is true. Except for that last sentence. And that one. And that one...

I think my brain just broke. He must be a fool. This confirms it.

[Raya36]

You have a point about null reads but I think that applies much later on the game rather than 6 pages in. A lot of null reads this early is normal. A lot of scumreads this early doesn't sit well with me.

To clarify: I'm scumreading you because of your SR, not because you have a lot of nullreads.

Explain? This doesn't make sense. Raya's explanation of why she finds Ghost scummy ("I honestly think Ghost's list of scumreads was setting up mislynches and if any gained traction he would push that one." and how she disagreed with Ghost's suggestion of a policy lynch) is perfectly valid and I don't see any scum motivation here for Raya to push Ghost.

Not a fan. It's another "defend someone and ask the accuser to elaborate" kind of post. They're not hard for scum to make, and I want to see more independent thoughts, turtle.

I'm not sold on Elmo being scum. She seems pretty aggressive with how she's voting people, but I don't think scum are usually this aggressive in their play. However, the only thing I can attribute to her continual movement of votes and reactions as town is as some form of reaction test (can't really explain much beyond this because this just feels like a possibility in this context). Reaction tests aren't useful though unless information is gained from them so I'd like Elmo to explain the motivation behind her movement of votes at some point.

Hmm, following the trend here. I don't get why you think town!Elmo can only be doing this as reaction tests. Why can't it just be playstyle? This is a perfect way for you to look like you're defending town but without an actual valid reason, since scum!you might expect town!Elmo to absolutely not be doing reaction testing, so you don't need to worry about actually derailing the wagon.

Hectic, I see you're trying to get a mislynch...

[Raya36]

Why does it look like that, Raya? I'm just voicing any suspicions I have. He's not my top scumread, and I actually like his recent responses to me, though it took me several tries to read and understand what he was saying.

Doesn't he look like obvious mislynch bait to you? The post I quoted earlier was very obviously from town but people are still for some reason pushing him as scum

[Raya36]

I haven't checked the role table yet. Is jester on there? I'm getting jester vibes from someone but I don't want to say just in case they're one of those dayvig jester types.

I actually can't tell if you're joking this time even though it's even... there's no third party. I was just joking

[Raya36]

I guess the way they word things does make them lynchbaity. I don't think that post you quoted was towny though. Scum can more likely to not take a stance and leave their options open. Why do you think scum!turtle has motive to scumread Ghost and agree with you, or scumread you and agree with Ghost, when they can just take a middle ground and argue with you against the logic without giving a read on either? It means they can be flexible later.

Doesn't make them scum, but I wouldn't say that's a towny response for the reasons you're giving. The logic they used in the post however was fine.[/quote]
Well when two players are attacking each other like that and scumreading each other it's very easy for scum to swoop in and take a side and help it build traction. It's a good way to set up a mislynch. That's something I would probably do at least. And the statement from Pi that Ghost was scummy but that doesnt make him scum doesnt come from scum. If scum saw someone in a TvT act scummy they would push them for being scummy.

[Raya36]

I actually can't tell if you're joking this time even though it's even... there's no third party. I was just joking

Wait, really?? I've been playing around things like serial killers and cult leaders for as long as I can remember in newbie games. I thought anything considered normal could be in these games.

For the record, my cult leader read was Snowblaze, and my serial killer read was gibus. My jester read was Elmo.

Can I throw all those out then?

Ok good. You were joking

[Raya36]

The only read from that you should throw out is Elmo. Unwnd is clearly the jester

[Raya36]

I'm kinda with Umlaut on this

[Raya36]

I forgive you Hectic

[Raya36]

Welcome H2M

[Raya36]

It’s M2H but close enough I guess

Well idk how I messed that up

Welcome M2H

[Raya36]

I don't at this time have any town reads that I feel >95% confident in but I will say that I have positive thoughts regarding certain Umlaut, Snowblaze, Homura, and piis posts.

Could you show the posts you have positive thoughts to? I'm most curious about Umlaut and Homura

[Raya36]

Why are so many people lurking? For a 17 player game with 4 scum, this is basically dead.

There's definitely at least 1 of the scum lurking. It's way too quiet

[Raya36]

Why are so many people lurking? For a 17 player game with 4 scum, this is basically dead.

It’s not 17p... it’s 9p. 7t 2m. Derp clear denied.

7 traitors, 2 mafia? I'm not an expert in setup design but I don't think that sounds fair to town. I may be wrong though, because I'm no expert in setup design.

Luckily for you I'm an expert in setup design and this is actually extremely town sided

[Raya36]

Probably time for us to all put our cards on the table since deadline is approaching.

Reads:

• M2H is so town it hurts
  
• Raya36 also pretty town
  
• Snowblaze is a tough call but I'm leaning town
  
• gibus and Homura are dead null
  
• Pi is null too but I'm more paranoid there
  
• One of Nauci or Hectic is probably scum

This is a good post from Umlaut

[Raya36]

I don't understand my predecessor's push on Snow either but I don't see why she would do something so abrasive if this slot were scum when she's plenty experienced enough to know it would become low hanging fruit

Pii and Ghost Ganster (now M2H? Haven't gotten that far yet) aren't scum together, I'm pretty sure

and I don't think Raya and Pi could be scum together either

I feel pretty good about Raya being town but admittedly I am biased simply because I agree with so many of their posts

I'm only on page 7 but I have a stronger-than-typical-by-page-7 scum lean on Ghost Ganster

His long post was the sort of ramble that I have definitely employed as scum to sound like I am evaluating people and really trying to get reads, but without actually making my mind up much on anybody. Like, the way that there are so many posts that have scum equity to him SO early on in the game just feels more like a scum player who is actively trying to read every post in a bad light in order to scum case them and keep multiple push options open. The scum read is then seriously compounded by the fact that after that noise, and with real substance in the game, he defaulted to a poke-the-lurkers stance. He even said that he tries to have reads early in the game to the point of forcing/faking them early on, used that stance to criticize another player for not having strong reads by like page 5, but all he came up with after those posts is policy voting a lurker. That just feels like scummy hesitation because the scum equity posts he talked about feel like too much of a reach even for him.

I have a town lean on Snow for the unnecessary defense of Homura (insofar as saying that inactivity is NAI) and a town lean on Pi for their reaction to the big Ghost Ganster post and Raya's commentary on it, even if I disagree with it. Essentially... I agree with Raya's 139.

I think GG's 163 misconstrue's Raya's posts quite a bit but I'm not sure yet if it was intentional or not. Scum!Pi had the option of siding with GG to scumread Raya or siding with Raya to scumread GG but did neither and considered both town which is something that town is more likely to do since there's no scum agenda. So the concept of scum trying to look busy doesn't apply here at all because that requires shading people without actively pushing them. Raya explains this well in 188

I can't precisely pinpoint why but I have a gut scum lean on Umlaut and Gibus as of page 8

This post makes me think Nauci is town. It's a really good analysis of some of the players and I agree with most points. Although I'm very 50/50 with Ghost Gangster's slot. I still agree that all I said about them is scummy but their responses seem sufficient.

[Raya36]

UNVOTE: Raya36
I'm most probably wrong about Raya I guess.

Preferably I'd vote in {Hectic, Homura}

Wait why were you pushing me again? Was it just because of my read on Ghost?

This reads like you were choosing a side in the GhostVme 1v1 and a wagon on me never gained any traction. I think what's giving me that feeling is the word choice in the first sentence. You don't sound at all convinced I'm town yet suddenly you don't want to push me or anything anymore. "probably" "I guess"

VOTE: Gibus

[Raya36]

But you still didn't explain why those 2 players are your preferred votes

And if they are your preferred votes, why don't you vote there

I feel good about the rest of the playerlist.
VOTE: Hectic

So you don't necessarily think Hectic is scum? You just think everyone else is town and PoE?

[Raya36]

@gibus: why Hectic over Homura there? Is it just because Hectic already has a vote?

I'm reasonable sure Elmo was scum. Her alt is Red Panda, and she was relatively active on there while she completely lurked it out here after we started accusing her.

This doesn't feel right. Elmo was relatively active in their scum games (the ones I've seen at least, Red Panda's 2007 included) and they lurked before the wagon was even formed on them. There is a line between unmotivated!Elmo and scum!Elmo doing this, and I'm pretty sure it's the former. It looks like a bad faith push.

I'm curious to see how Homura's reads will progress after D1 since there isn't much in their ISO, I prefer Hectic right now.

I feel like scum wouldn't try to push something so weak? That's obviously not a good scumtell and I don't think scum!Hectic would try to push that as scum.

[Raya36]

So a quick summary:

Homura = Null
gibus = Scum
Hectic = Townlean?
M2H = Slight Scumlean because of Ghost but I'm agreeing with M2H with Gibus being scum so I have to be wrong on one of them.
Snowblaze = Town
piisirrational = Town
Raya36 = TOP TOWN
Umlaut = Town
Nauci = Townlean

[Raya36]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Because you pushed me and when it didn't gain any traction you hopped off. That's not how town plays. Town keeps pressuring until they actually think the person they thought was scum is town.

[Raya36]

Why are so many people lurking? For a 17 player game with 4 scum, this is basically dead.

It’s not 17p... it’s 9p. 7t 2m. Derp clear denied.

7 traitors, 2 mafia? I'm not an expert in setup design but I don't think that sounds fair to town. I may be wrong though, because I'm no expert in setup design.

Luckily for you I'm an expert in setup design and this is actually extremely town sided

And how would that work, Raya?

Sounds to me like you're a traitor trying to make us not worry about you.

Well you see. We lynch scum first day then its 7v1. Then scum kills us then its 6v1. Then we kill the second scum which is a win. Very easy for town.

[Raya36]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Why does that mean you were wrong on Raya?

This is what I was trying to get at. It makes no sense

[Raya36]

Why is M2H in your pool?

[Raya36]

^ that's @homura if it isn't clear

[Raya36]

Why is M2H in your pool?

I considered their predecessor town for the most part and feel their own ISO was generally towny; the more relevant reason is that they're less involved in the associatives surrounding the two biggest wagons, along with Snow and pi.

So preflip wagon analysis?

[Raya36]

.
I feel like Raya was a bit too eager to accept my town read of her and read on the rest of the game and is now considering me pocketed, but I'm also a very very paranoid player who frequently thinks my top town read is scum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Idk what you mean by too eager but I only have you as a town lean. I don't feel like even if I was scum I'm in a position to consider you pocketed? But maybe from your POV you feel that way

[Raya36]

I thought I was mostly wrong about you because it didn't gain any traction. Why is that scummy?

Because you pushed me and when it didn't gain any traction you hopped off. That's not how town plays. Town keeps pressuring until they actually think the person they thought was scum is town.

I don't agree with your logic. Why is that not how town plays? Why don't town reconsider their reads based on existing TR reasons and SR reasons?

Because from a town POV it makes no sense to think you're wrong about a scumread because a wagon didn't build up. If that's how it worked there would be far less mislynches because a wagon building up would be scum indicative. When that's not the case, it's actually more likely to be the opposite since scum are actively pushing for mislynches.

[Raya36]

Raya could be scum for grabbing all these PageTops. Scum want to claim those because they're like fortified watchtowers of a castle. Best way to give a good impression.

Well you got me there but while that's true my main goal was to steal page top from the mod so nobody knows the vote count.

[Raya36]

Also I have no interest in lynching umlaut today. I'd rather stick with Gibus

[Raya36]

You know, that actually makes a lot of sense. Scum should be claiming a PR not VT. UNVOTE:

[Raya36]

And Hectic trying to dismantle the biggest wagon when he's the most likely counter at the moment makes me think he's town too

[Raya36]

We have 8h45m left until deadline and at the rate this game is going we won't have a decision made by deadline.

Pedit: I'm thinking about it. I remember seeing a particular post I thought was towny. But I need to go through his iso.

[Raya36]

Umlaut did go on Pi who I think was attempted mislynch bait. Also he had strong town vibes on a post I expressed to be scummy. Also pushed Elmo who was a popular push at the time. Then said I was white knighting?? Lost interest in Pi when everyone started town reading him or saying that he's likely bait. And then attacking Homura. And then attacking Hectic.

This is all giving me the same feeling that Ghost's analysis post did. Lots of sus but little done.

It was his 315 that I thought was townie just since he was throwing his reads out towards the end of the day. Seemed town-oriented in the sense of organizing at the end of the day. But it could come from scum easily.

Sus on M2H's post even though he just said he's so town it hurts.

I'm not a huge fan of his argument for hectic as scum. The joke posting is NaI in my opinion. Scum could do it to up the post count and cause confusion. Town could do it for fun/personality. Scum might not do it because it gains attention. It's hard to say. Nauci not voting him being town indicative isn't a horrible argument. It's not great but I see the logic.

[Raya36]

VOTE: Umlaut I'll do this

[Raya36]

Sus on M2H's post even though he just said he's so town it hurts.

Can you explain why this is bad?

It's not horrible on it's own but with everything else it's a lot of added up sus

[Raya36]

Umlaut please fully claim

[Raya36]

The way you've claimed:

Unless the PRs are exactly masons, that means you can't be counterclaimed by any town PR, because every other PR is paired with some "investigative PR" in one of the boxes.

If you full claim:

Town absolutely can counterclaim you if you're scum. You might claim a role which doesn't fit with one of the town PR's roles. There's a reason the newbie setup is built this way, and why it's standard practice to fullclaim. Because scum can be counterclaimed unless they get lucky. I really don't like how you're trying to get away with this.

[/quote]
This is correct and exactly why you need to full claim. If you're town it sucks because you out your role but you're likely to get lynched anyway if you refuse to claim. If you're scum than you're flailing en. And that vote on snow then back to hectic looked like flailing to me.

[Raya36]

We're running very low on time. We need to choose one way or the other. Gibus or Umlaut

[Raya36]

Do you mean Hectic or Umlaut?

I think by my count Hectic is -1 and Umlaut is -2?

Oops that is what I mean. I was thinking of the old wagons from like a couple hours ago

[Raya36]

I thought the "he's lying" was a read not a counterclaim. But really we need snow to come confirm

[Raya36]

I wish there were more people online right now. I'm concerned umlaut is being honest and hectic is playing us. But snow did sound suddenly confident. I just wish she gave some basis for that confidence before leaving

[Raya36]

Yeah I'll do that Nauci. I should be around until deadline or very close to. I'll make sure I move over if need be. But I won't be super happy about it

[Raya36]

To be honest, I’ve caught up a while ago and I really wanted Snow to respond before posting because it would confirm or deconfirm the theory I based most of my reads and my view of the game around, but I don’t think it’s affordable to wait now.

VOTE: Umlaut

Prefer going here. Snow’s semi-CC means this has a higher chance of nailing confscum than a Hectic lynch.

This is very town

[Raya36]

I don't think they would be so obvious about hesitating if they were bussing. They'd just come in and bus and not make it known they were hesitating at all

[Raya36]

I wouldn't read too much into activity to be honest. Sometimes I disappear a whole day simply because I'm tired or not in the mood to play

[Raya36]

If you flip town Um I'll be going after Hectic

[Raya36]

Yeah I think Um is flipping scum

[Raya36]

Hello everyone.

Once I get a chance I'm going to look into Umlaut's associations and also Hectic's.

Interesting scum didn't kill Snow who is being considered a potential PR right now. Makes me wonder if Hectic was on to something.

[Raya36]

Hello everyone.

Once I get a chance I'm going to look into Umlaut's associations and also Hectic's.

Interesting scum didn't kill Snow who is being considered a potential PR right now. Makes me wonder if Hectic was on to something.

Actually I'm willing to bet that it means that the remaining scum is a scum PR and assumed that Snow would be protected by a jailer or a doctor and went with the town who is otherwise the most confirmed town plus scary to go up against

Since they're solo scum now, I don't think they can perform their action AND the faction kill, so they wouldn't have been able to do anything to prevent a protection role from working

This makes sense and probably explains what happened. So in that case umlaut's associations would be more reliable than hectic's

[Raya36]

Isn't M2H cleared? Wouldn't making a NK be considered as a response?
VOTE: Piisirrational

If Gibus is scum why would they lower the lynch pool from 3 including himself to 2 including himself?

It's sounding like it's Pi from PoE, as town as I thought he was

[Raya36]

If it's A1, doc should obviously keep protecting Snow.
And scum should forfeit.

HAMMER

VOTE: piisirrational

This is the second game I came back to and missed the entirety of D2 because of a quick lynch lol

[Raya36]

Oh nvm it was a fake quick lynch. Well I'm gonna claim intent on Pi based on PoE. I'd like to hear from Pi first though if everyone else could refrain from hammering until he gets back

[Raya36]

Umlaut lightly pushed Pi at the start of the same then ended up saying he lost interest in him. That could have been distancing. He then has him as null/paranoid.

Pi says Umlaut is scummy but then makes his post stating that town does scummy things too therefore he's not reading Umlaut as scum. With the new context of Umlaut being scum that looks really bad. Pi comes to Umlaut's defense in 382.. that's making the associations even worse.

[Raya36]

Intent on hammering Pi

[Raya36]

It's gotten super quiet

[Raya36]

Yeah I assume Pi is lurking. It's been about a day since D1 started. I'll probably hammer in a couple hours if nobody is strongly against that

[Raya36]

Well good game everyone!

Pi, you had me fooled until the associations and PoE took over

[Raya36]

If PoE didn't narrow it down to just her she probably would've survived at least another day

[Raya36]

If PoE didn't narrow it down to just her she probably would've survived at least another day

If Hectic hadn't lurched us from Gibus to Umlaut, I wouldn't have suspected her until Umlaut died or it was Day 3 or 4, I'm guessing

Yes, definitely well played by Hectic!

[Raya36]

Good game everyone!