Yellowstone

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: DGB (E-4) If I tunnel you in enough games, I'm bound to be right eventually

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: DGB (E-4) If I tunnel you in enough games, I'm bound to be right eventually

At least this time you have good reasons.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: DGB (E-4) If I tunnel you in enough games, I'm bound to be right eventually

Actually, you will be almost surely be right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely
The set of possible exceptions is non-empty, but it has probability 0%.

Arguing over semantics is a classic scum play

[Marky Mark]

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

Is this an alt?

Btw I am super gutted about the flavour. I thought it was going to be the town as bears with guns and the scum as the park rangers (like Yogie Bear kinda)

[Marky Mark]

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

Is this an alt?

Btw I am super gutted about the flavour. I thought it was going to be the town as bears with guns and the scum as the park rangers (like Yogie Bear kinda)

No I'm not an alt lol, I'm an actually new user

You have an uncanny familiarity with mafia jargon for a new user in their first game onsite. Hmmm

Alright, someone do the protown thing and create something dumb and artificial to get us out of RVS

VOTE: Horselady
I'm at least moderately serious here. If you truly wanted to get out of RVS as you posit, you would do something yourself rather than making a post asking others to do it

[Marky Mark]

I can't even bear this game anymore, it's too dead :c

Apologies for needing to sleep Anyways, I thought you'd be appreciating a slower-paced game after the whirlwind that was Bending

[Marky Mark]

I mean meh as much as something can be on pg3. Yeah it could be just a joke at face value, but also potentially an easy way for scum to look involved in driving the game forwards while not really saying anything

[Marky Mark]

Trying to get the game to progress out of RVS/apathy stage is absolutely a pro-town mindset

Agreed. Trying to

look

like you are getting the game to progress while expecting others to do it for you however...

[Marky Mark]

JacksonVirgo, how much do you actually think Horsewoman is scum, and how much is your vote for pressure's sake?

If the latter is the case, then wouldn't them answering this question truthfully rather undermine their vote? (ie a pressure vote that is clearly only there for pressure stops having as much impact)

[Marky Mark]

I'm going to head off to sleep now but I'm gonna say a few words before I do.

Llama's "read-fishing" strikes me as strange to ask as Town, it's like they're trying to fake content and see if my vote is real or otherwise to see if they can start pushing there as well. Either that or they trying to gauge the collective read on their buddy (and whether or not it's just for pressure) though that one is kinda weird to do objectively and I doubt they'd be that blatant as scumbuddies but it's a weird interaction nonetheless. Horse was blatantly trying to sap the town-cred from their posts by saying it's absolutely pro-town to hide behind the efforts of other players by claiming to have involved themselves with pushing the game out of RVS. Both are individually scummy but I'm trying to get a feel of whether Llama's post lead to them being possibly aligned or otherwise.

@Horse and @Llama

, do you have scum/town games under your belt and if so can you link a few?

Your other posts are ++TR but asking for meta on pg4 strikes me as a bit forced - particularly as this is nothing something I recall you doing in our 2 previous games together where you were town

[Marky Mark]

Fine, I'll go through both possibilities before you answer then. I would have rather had it the other way round so I could have a better understanding of your perspective first, but *shrug*

In 68, Horsewoman says she doesn't have any reads yet. This means she probably won't have much to offer when pressured. So why does JV choose to pressure there right afterwards? It's a lead doomed to dry up, since Horsewoman has already said she's come up short of any reads. A pressure vote there makes little sense as a result, and I'm not sure why JV chose to push there right after seeing evidence that it wouldn't lead to much.

So I thought JV might actually think Horsewoman is scum. But based on what's been posted so far I'm not seeing it. My gut reaction to Horsewoman's posts has been town, and the evidence against her in 71 is fairly baseline - it's a lot about what town SHOULD be doing, but not really evidence that Horsewoman IS SCUM.

So tl;dr I don't think JV's vote makes much sense from any town perspective and is kind of doing the exact thing Horsewoman is being accused of: creating 'content' that won't actually go anywhere.

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

This feels a bit forced and is also inaccurate IMO - pressuring low-info slots is part of the game - if anything its the slots without reads that are the ones that require pressuring to get info out of.

I think it's probably fair to say that Horsewoman's claim that they were progressing the game by asking other players to create content is on shaky ground in terms of logic. Whether that is AI is a harder question to answer, but you shading JV over his vote on Horse here is a bit sus

[Marky Mark]

I don't like Marky's vote on Horsewoman. Feels like an overreaction honestly.
Jacko's reminds me of Shelly's mini we played in recently so I'll locktown Jacko for it for now.

I took Horsewoman's post as a joke as well but honestly even if it isn't, its nothing big, yeah? Like half the time im town, I just sheep people who actually don't suck's reads lol.

Moving on to read page 4~

Please tell me about how my pg 3 vote is an overreaction as opposed to trying to work with the limited information we have.

I am also enjoying how JV follows up on my vote but your are SRing me and TRing him. Go figure lol.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: flea

I'll be MIA for about 24 hours as I'm traveling.

This serious or no? If serious then why? If no, then why are you still trying to push RVS when the game is starting to emerge from that?

[Marky Mark]

Not sure what I think of llama honestly. I feel like llama reads somewhat genuine and im willing to town bin for now.

I found 80 very contrived. Are you also seeing this as contrived but just think its NAI or do you not think it is contrived at all?

[Marky Mark]

Not sure what I think of llama honestly. I feel like llama reads somewhat genuine and im willing to town bin for now.

I found 80 very contrived. Are you also seeing this as contrived but just think its NAI or do you not think it is contrived at all?

I have mixed feelings about that post. I don't agree but I don't know if its necessarily scum indicative.

I can understand this - I was initially confused by your stance as the post was shading JV who you are heavily townreading.

[Marky Mark]

Of course not, some prime examples of anti-town behaviour include

Not_Mafia, Not_Mafia and Not_Mafia.

Is this an reference I'm supposed to understand? I'm also new here so I didn't get it.

Not Mafia is a player on this site who has a reputation for not taking games very seriously and trolling as both alignments.

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: jackson

Fancy explaining your train of thought?

[Marky Mark]

I don't like Marky's vote on Horsewoman. Feels like an overreaction honestly.
Jacko's reminds me of Shelly's mini we played in recently so I'll locktown Jacko for it for now.

I took Horsewoman's post as a joke as well but honestly even if it isn't, its nothing big, yeah? Like half the time im town, I just sheep people who actually don't suck's reads lol.

Moving on to read page 4~

What about Mark's vote seems like an overreaction? Also what about my plays compared to shelly's mini makes me lock-town? I don't want to get pocketed here by noraabear. OH MY GOD NORAA IS A BEAR

I had just asked Noraa about how this was an overreaction

Of course not, some prime examples of anti-town behaviour include

Not_Mafia, Not_Mafia and Not_Mafia.

Is this an reference I'm supposed to understand? I'm also new here so I didn't get it.

They're a player that is anti-town to it's core. They hammer any E-1 regardless of alignment and never takes games seriously, at least as far as I know.

I had recently explained this

VOTE: flea

I'll be MIA for about 24 hours as I'm traveling.

Is this an RVS vote or a serious one?

I had also recently asked this

TL;DR - JV has either
a.) skimmed and not seen me already posting those points
b.) Is operating perfectly in synch with me or
c.) is trying to pocket me

[Marky Mark]

Please tell me about how my pg 3 vote is an overreaction as opposed to trying to work with the limited information we have.

Feels like between this and the meta tell on Flea, Noraa has been avoiding answering questions so far. Why the cold shoulder Noraa?

[Marky Mark]

But the post I made literally did progress it! People started talking about the game immediately afterwards/because of it

I mean yeah, but the logic of trying to take credit for progressing the game through making a dubious post that others then picked apart is stretching it a bit lol

I don't really like this post? You're the one confidently asserting that JV's pressure/vote 'won't go anywhere' but the reason for that is you've basically come into this thread and totally stopped that pressure with your own actions. And you make a good point about applying what town SHOULD be doing - but then you contradict your own point!! You vote JV for applying pressure that you personally thought wouldn't go anywhere, which is exactly based on what town should be doing. Sad!

^(From the same post by Horsewoman)
Conversely, your analysis here actually makes sense and you are right that Llama's stance does seem v inconsistent.

[Marky Mark]

Pig and Nono's 0-context votes seem sus to me, especially when we are getting beyond RVS

I'm still leaning scum (to the extend that one can, at this early stage) on Horsewoman atm, esp off the back of her trying to claim townpoints for her post that got picked apart. I'm gonna VOTE: Llama though because their posts just feel a bit forced, and inconsistent.

[Marky Mark]

Please tell me about how my pg 3 vote is an overreaction as opposed to trying to work with the limited information we have.

Feels like between this and the meta tell on Flea, Noraa has been avoiding answering questions so far. Why the cold shoulder Noraa?

I find it extremely interesting that u've shaded three people already and its like page 6.

I answered.
I believe that what they did was not deserving of that vote but Jacko is special cuz their town meta matches up with votes not always making sense.

You however, don't get the benefit of the doubt cuz I've never played with u before.

I've said multiple times why my meta tell isnt gonna be dropped quite yet. Why push it?

VOTE: Mark

1. I have poked at things that stuck out to me in order to hunt scum. SRing me for shading people is odd IMO - would it not be more suspicious if I wasn't trying to find scum?
2. You answered in the general sense but you did not explain why it was an overeaction as opposed to pulling apart the limited info we had at that point. You are still welcome to make your case
3. I wasn't pushing the meta tell specifically - on its own, that's maybe understandable, but the general point still stand that you had tried to slip away from two direct questions.

[Marky Mark]

Pig and Nono's 0-context votes seem sus to me, especially when we are getting beyond RVS

I'm still leaning scum (to the extend that one can, at this early stage) on Horsewoman atm, esp off the back of her trying to claim townpoints for her post that got picked apart. I'm gonna VOTE: Llama though because their posts just feel a bit forced, and inconsistent.

Im very concerned as to why you are giving off really heavy newbscum vibes cuz ur join date tells me that shouldn't be the case.

See here's what I see from you:
constant shade on multiple people(you've literally shaded almost everyone in this plist by now)
barely caring about other people's SRs on you(which is a newbscum tell that says they know the people SRing are right so they are avoiding)
jumping on the biggest wagon so far AFTER some other people jump on when you were(if I remember correctly), the first to SR llama

1. I have pointed out things from Pig, Nono, Horse and Llama that I found off. At a stretch, you and JV too, but not to the same extent. So at maximum, I have pointed out behaviours from 6 players.
a.) As previously stated, would it not be more suspect if I wasn't actively trying to hunt scum?
b.) 6/13 players != "almost everyone in this plist". If you're going to shade me at leastbe truthful about it rather than resorting to hyperbole.
2. If people push me for reasons that are clearly flawed (ring any bells?) I will try and respond. I'm always happy to chat things through
3. Yeah that's fair, but there is more than one scum and I found horse scummier initially but as the game has developed, llama has become scummier and horse has dropped some posts that felt a bit more towny. Apologies for updating my reads to reflect the game

[Marky Mark]

you've literally shaded almost everyone in this plist by now

and its literally page 7 :/

This rounds your tirade off with a spicy little combo of naked exaggeration and shading me for actively trying to scumhunt.

By this logic, the towny thing to do (ie the anithisis) would be to try and analyse as few players' posts as possible and not bother scumhunting in earnest until we are several pages deeper?
^ I'm teasing you here and being deliberately facetious, but I hope you can kinda see my POV

Noraa is 99% sure Flea is scum but vote:Mark

Dw, will be worth it for the D1 solve when they drop their super-secret tell later on in the day

[Marky Mark]

Ok, I'll be fair to Noraa here, I was methodically responding to stuff while catching up and have now seen their super-secret tell on flea

[Marky Mark]

@Mark

, what's your read on Noraa at the moment?

I don't have a solid handle on them but middling right now would be my best guess.

I feel like their push on me is pretty flawed logically, but at least they are trying to find things that seem sus to them and point them out. Their push on me/flea also feels more in line with their tone and less contrived/forced than some others eg llama and horse to a lesser extent. See 80 for a canonical example of this

I am waaaay more worried by the 'drop a naked vote and provide next to nothing in terms of justification/scrutiny/analysis' crew of Nono/Pig and most recently momrangal as this is literally lurking in plain sight

[Marky Mark]

barely caring about other people's SRs on you(which is a newbscum tell that says they know the people SRing are right so they are avoiding)

Thinking about it, this feels like an inaccuracy - in my (limited) experience, newbscum tend to panic when people vote them rather than playing it cool like a more seasoned player. Not sure if you are stretching the truth to fit the facts here or have just had a different experience of playing with new players (entirely possible).

Btw - pagetop without even realising until I'd posted #oblivious #ImJustThatGood

[Marky Mark]

Mmmmmm.....

VOTE: mark

I'll humour you. Why do you think I'm scum?

In fairness, I have now called you out for a naked vote, so that is 7/13 players and a step closer to me shading almost the entire player list . Maybe Noraa was on to something?

I have a town read on Flea but Noraa's tell about the amount of fluff is super convincing. I guess i am wrong and Flea is scum. So my next step is to vote Mark, if I get how this works?

That's one option. Alternatively, you could come up with a super secret tell on me and then reveal it to the town after I get NKed

[Marky Mark]

Mmmmmm.....

VOTE: mark

I'll humour you. Why do you think I'm scum?

In fairness, I have now called you out for a naked vote, so that is 7/13 players and a step closer to me shading almost the entire player list . Maybe Noraa was on to something?

I have a town read on Flea but Noraa's tell about the amount of fluff is super convincing. I guess i am wrong and Flea is scum. So my next step is to vote Mark, if I get how this works?

That's one option. Alternatively, you could come up with a super secret tell on me and then reveal it to the town after I get NKed

[Marky Mark]

Apologies for the random double post. Catch all you lovely people tomorrow

[Marky Mark]

Evening all

I've been pretty busy with work today so will do a swift catchup today and some stuff off the top of my head and then some stuff in more depth Weds/Thurs when I have more capacity.

Hold on to your hats while I catch up with this bad boy...

[Marky Mark]

Town: JacksonViggo, Nora

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama

For now

Confused why you would pick out Flea specifically as being null (as opposed to the other 9 players implicitly null by not being in your list)?

shading me for actively trying to scumhunt.

Do I need to quote the posts where u run around and shade people? cuz I don't see much scum hunting.

Could you be a pal and do that for me please? Super happy to chat through any of the points I have raised if you think my logic is awry.

I get NKed

uhhhhhhh lol I don't think that's gonna happen this game.

Even as I wrote that joke, I knew someone wouldn't be able to resist the LHF

[Marky Mark]

Scum reads have to come from somewhere, and I'm not fond of people picking on low hanging fruit

Who is the LHF here?

+1

I've not quoted the follow up posts but its great to have guillotine on the same wavelength (unless its a pocket ofc )

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Horsewoman

Cheeky naked vote on consensus SR. Have some scumpoints.

Pig and Nono's 0-context votes seem sus to me, especially when we are getting beyond RVS

Both of these two were V/LA at the time of his push

Yeah, nah. Try harder please. Both dropped a no-context vote

prior

to going V/LA, when the game was getting well beyond RVS. This is a behaviour that is scummy, so I called it out. Would it have been better to ignore it?

Btw lol, I'm loving JV and Guillotine taking Noraa to task on their push on me, before I've replied. Welcome to the Marky Mark entourage guys :3

[Marky Mark]

Why does everyone think my 232 is a naked vote when I was the FIRST vote on Horsewoman WITH A REASON?

You voted horse as we were bearly coming out of RVS on the basis of a forced joke in a particular post. I am assuming your reasons for voting her later on was somewhat more nuanced, so would be handy to have some context to go off.

[Marky Mark]

Maybe i was wrong townreading you. This is not how town proceeds.

VOTE: Noraa

I mean I am biased in Noraa unvoting me, but this feels fine for a town progression - you poke at something that feels off, that player explains their motivations and then (if you agree with their POV) you update your view of the game. Surely scummier to tunnel on a read regardless of how they respond?

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?
She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.
.

"Definitely scum" mid d1 is pretty strong IMO and is something that I rarely find myself thinking at this stage of the game.

I agree the "go easy on me" from Horsewoman is v sus, given that she clearly has experience and says as much, but I think "She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right." is a real stretch of conjecture

Fwiw, I feel like DGB's reads are in a good place, although I am confused on the strong TR of horse, given that she was deliberatley misleading in her "Hi, I'm new" post. Perhaps you could explain to us how you still TR her despite that?

Did Noraa froze?
Horsewoman, Llama slot and Noraa is where I'll vote today.
JK, Mark. Whom you'd most likely vote to yeet here?

I feel like I'm confbiased here because I found your other posts sus, so take this with a pinch of salt, but this feels very consensus-y

--pedit @Guillo that makes sense. What did you think of Noraa's super secret tell on flea?

[Marky Mark]

I am also quite frankly loving that Noraa went to the effort of making a wall out of my ISO. The Marky Mark entourage has another member methinks - perhaps we should start calling you lot the Funky Bunch?

For real though, 0-contex quoting my votes doesn't really help me understand why you think they are shading rather than SRing. I more than happy to chat through individual posts with you, if you want to actually articulate what it is about them that makes them shade, rather than scumhunting

[Marky Mark]

Hi, I'm new

I mean I'm pretty sure horse is new *to this site* but not new to mafia in general. isn't that misleading imo but I can see where the confusion comes from and why someone might misinterpret it as her trying to pull a newb card.

Ok, I can kinda see that on reflection.

I am also quite frankly loving that Noraa went to the effort of making a wall out of my ISO. The Marky Mark entourage has another member methinks - perhaps we should start calling you lot the Funky Bunch?

For real though, 0-contex quoting my votes doesn't really help me understand why you think they are shading rather than SRing. I more than happy to chat through individual posts with you, if you want to actually articulate what it is about them that makes them shade, rather than scumhunting

Guillo kept insisting I provide evidence when I've started TRing you long ago. It was ridiculous but I did it and I do think each of those posts is shady to some extent. It doesn't affect my current read on you tho.

If you genuinely think the posts are shady then make a case . If you think I'm town and didn't want to go back over the posts then why not just tell Guillo what you've just told me rather then posting them? Either position seems reasonable.

[Marky Mark]

@Guillo - ref Horsewoman and "definitely scum" - full disclosure: I contributed to miseliming a townie in my previous game due to them overstating the strength of their conviction so I appreciate that overconfidence in a read is not a stone cold tell, but I just find it odd when people are super confident d1, especially when I am still groping in the dark

--pedit, yeah I've basically just asked that lol. ++FunkyBunch points tho :3

[Marky Mark]

Did Noraa froze?

Horsewoman, Llama slot and Noraa is where I'll vote today.

JK, Mark. Whom you'd most likely vote to yeet here?

Here is basically where I am at right now, after a long day at work and a large glass of sherry. In no particular order:


So I'm still finding Llama pretty scummy and their disappearance hasn't changed this one way or the other, so I am going to wait and see what they have to say for themselves.
Not a huge fan of momrangal. This is borderline OMGUS but they were trying to twist the facts to imply my suspicion on the posts of Pig/Nono

before

they went away were me picking on absent players. Them voting me after Noraa's push and their unvoting soon after Noraa changed their mind seems pretty opportunistic.
Then there's several slots in the naked vote and/or lurking form the sidelines crew. Clearly not all scum, but very possible 1+ scum in this set.
Guillo interceding for me vs noraa and their consensusy reads pinged me a bit but their ISO is pretty solid
Horsewoman, I found scummy early. In fairness, I was probably overthinking the new player thing, but their reaction to my speculative vote on them was off. They have been townier since tho.
JV/DGB posts have felt on the money consistently this game so townlean on them. Full disclaimer: I have played with both of them before as town so I may be displaying unconscious bias here (can you tell I've done my annual mandatory diversity training recently? )
Noraa I need to have a proper look at, as there's plenty there to go off. My interactions with them have felt fairly genuine fmpov so ++TR for that, but ++SR for the initial push on me as the reasoning was rather off in my (biased) opinion.


--pedit @Noraa I get where you're coming from, although equally why not have the courage of your convictions and just tell guillo that you're not going to as it's been overtaken by events. Your position does make sense tho

Now let's have a look at that pig wall...

[Marky Mark]

@DGB: I mean her (horsewoman) clinging to how her "someone be protown here and do something" (I am paraphrasing here) post 43 was somehow protown (eg in 122) because others SRed her for it and that in turn led to discussion was one of the main things for me that felt like it had scum motivation. I could see that being her making a sus post and then trying to continue to argue the post was protown with increasingly contrived logic as it was picked apart. Thoughts?

@Pig: Why do you feel that Noraa has been focussed on DGB? Yes, they have interacted, but not to the extent that Noraa has interacted with some others, including yours truly

--pedit @Noraa love me a bit of self-meta, especially with an argument that you must be town because you are pushing town (I am being deliberately facetious here). I may even read some at the weekend, if I am feeling particularly bored.

[Marky Mark]

aaaand it is way past my bedtime, meaning the odds of me getting up in time to exercise before work tomorrow have gone from 1% to 0%. Nighty night!

Thanks for a very enjoyable evening all, it's been a hoot - you might even say it's been giving me some good vi-bear-ations (sorry, I couldn't resist)

--pedit @Pig: yes, you are right. Sorry. Clearly, I am too tired to function rn, and the he/she thing through me off as they are both shes afaik

[Marky Mark]

Evening all, today has just been very mental with work, so apologies for not being on. This will be a flying catchup post until I get a chance to sit down properly (hopefully tomorrow)

UNVOTE: - I'll give Llama's replacement a chance to catch up and psot their thoughts of the game state. The slot is scummy an I don't want to let it slip off the hook, but my vote there serves no purpose atm.

On a similar note - I can see that Pig's vote is on No Elim, who is also being replaced.
- @Pig: Who would be your next choice to vote aside from no elim's slot?

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Mafia

I just don't get this post - like why bother stating the obvious assumption being drawn here when we can all see what Momrangal was trying to convey?

[Marky Mark]

Fwiw, I hate to sheep Noraa, but after they explained horsewoman's "I'm new" post from another angle, I am less convinced that it is AI. There are other things that she are posted that are scummy tho (check my recent ISO for an explanation) so its weird to see several players fixating on that once piece of evidence rather than the slot more broadly.

@Horse - sorry to feel that you're not feeling in a great place atm. Clearly this is, above all else, supposed to be enjoyable, so please let me know if I could phrase things differently as I appreciate things can get heated in mafia. I would like to hear more from your slot, eg current reads of other players, but I understand that you have stuff going on IRL

[Marky Mark]

Let's flip the script

VOTE: Momrangal

You jump on Noraa's push on me and then jump off very soon after Noraa does, not to mention twisting the facts to imply that I was SRing players

because

they were V/LA, rather then for their behaviours prior to that.

You also seem weirdly fixated on pushing that one particular bit of evidence with Horsewoman ref her "I'm new" psot rather than looking at her wider ISO. Like if you legit SR her then surely you would be looking through her ISO at her other posts and scrutinizing those too - there are other scummy posts there too IMO.

[Marky Mark]

Apologies for not being more involved in this game, it's all just slightly mental with work in the build-up to Christmas, but I have two weeks off as of this weekend, so will have more capacity for this game.

Night all

[Marky Mark]

Flea's dive on HW is good, and backs up my point that there is way more stuff in there that is scummy than just the "hi I'm new thing"

I find it weird that this is stuff that JV, Flea and I have all commented on (there may be others too) but Guillo/Momrangal are still tunneled/fixated on that one specific "hi I'm new" post

I mean there's a decent chance she is scum here but I just think that guillos post in particular where he says he's "caught" her is a particular stretch, when it could potentially have been just that she was new to the forum

[Marky Mark]

Flea's dive on HW is good, and backs up my point that there is way more stuff in there that is scummy than just the "hi I'm new thing"

I find it weird that this is stuff that JV, Flea and I have all commented on (there may be others too) but Guillo/Momrangal are still tunneled/fixated on that one specific "hi I'm new" post

I mean there's a decent chance she is scum here but I just think that guillos post in particular where he says he's "caught" her is a particular stretch, when it could potentially have been just that she was new to the forum

[Marky Mark]

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

[Marky Mark]

@HW - what is your read on Momrangal and why are they scum?

Looking forward to hearing from the new llama soon - will be good to have some fresh eyes looking over the game.

We are also starting to tick towards the deadline so probs ought to start discussing Poes at the weekend and find some common ground.

Phone posting ATM on lunch break but hopefully will be on later

[Marky Mark]

@HW - what is your read on Momrangal and why are they scum?

Looking forward to hearing from the new llama soon - will be good to have some fresh eyes looking over the game.

We are also starting to tick towards the deadline so probs ought to start discussing Poes at the weekend and find some common ground.

Phone posting ATM on lunch break but hopefully will be on later

[Marky Mark]

@JV ref un-votes, there is clearly more than one scum to find. While we are waiting for the replacement to catch up it makes sense imo to scumhunt elsewhere, as an empty slot is not going to respond to my points if I push them.

A vote is a tool, and I don't see what a vote achieves against a slot that (at the time) wasn't going to respond to it

I still SR the slot and it will be in my POE today, unless the replacement towntells VERY hard

[Marky Mark]

Like ultimately, when I push people I want them to respond and argue with me so that I can refine my read based on their responses

[Marky Mark]

You lot post way too quickly for me to keep up with. This is turning into Bending (recent hyper-active mini normal) 2.0

Catchup thoughts in no particular order:

Gill's vote on flea in 485 accuses him of fluffiness, but the deep dives have been good. Like yeah he has been fluffy frequently, but there is enough substance also there to make this feel like a stretch.

++TR for JV doing the legwork to see if Horse's new player thing was consistent with her posts elsewhere on the site

542 lolwhat from guillo

Guillo/Noraa interaciton feels too real to be scum on scum. Either one scum or town on town could be the explanation here

612 by Togeloo just feels towny and I agree with the sentiment

[Marky Mark]

You have an uncanny familiarity with mafia jargon for a new user in their first game onsite. Hmmm

You were gonna go down the road I'm on, were you not?

Yes, in addition to my tell, a large amount of her posts is IIOA, and even when I'm a 1v1 with Guillotine the way she moves through it and tries to get out of it is a little weird.

Yes, on page 3 I made that comment, but I also commented on her other behaviors eg her "someone do something" post and her subsequently trying to claim townpoints for it. You trying to say that we are on the same reoad here is just misleading.

What is IIOA sorry? Just not familiar with that one.

[Marky Mark]

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

@JacksonVirgo

Mark went from being townread to null read quickly for.

It feels like the kind of wolf that earns towncred early in the game and then turns that towncred on the people that townread them to discredit their reads. In the wolves mind, it would look suspicious if someone who town reads the other suddenly scum read them because town react by impulse, so you'd see no progression between both reads.

What they don't know is that it is ok for us to change our mind in the blink of an eye if something ping us because we are the uninformed majority and it is ok for us to be wrong.

10/10 strawman - if you think that I am scummy then articulate your case but this is all pure conjecture. Surely all scum want to earn towncred?? And yes, flipping reads with no progression is weird, but equally, if someone that you TR starts acting scummy then just call it out and explain why and people willl understand your progression. I'm genuinely starting to feel like your "townie scum" hunch on me was a concoction to allow you to pivot to SRing me - if you had something concrete that I was doing that was scummy then why not just use actual evidence?

[Marky Mark]

@Guillo - what exactly are you SRing me for? Is it just my comment on your "townie scum"/"scummy town" post, or is there more to it?

@Pig - keen to have some reads from you

Nono's last post was like 2 days ago so I'm thinking they are maybe afk. Could definitely see them being lurkerscum here, but I'm not sure a vote would really serve much of a purpose if they aren't going to respond.

[Marky Mark]

I'll indulge in some town reads though!

Nora, nono, guillotine, mayybbeeee DBG I'll see

Why are you TRing nono here? They haven't said much at all and nothing in what they've posted has struck me as particularly townie

[Marky Mark]

Oh hey mark

Good evening JV

[Marky Mark]

Keen to hear back from people I've asked questions of/interacted with, but at 4 days out my ideal POE is

Horsewoman
Momrangal
Vax/Llama

I'd take Nono as a compromise lurker elim unless they start being more active in the thread.

Not massively keen to elim either Guillo/Noraa today. They have been two of the most active players in the thread and have interacted widely enough that we ought to be in a good place to sort them on future days. Guillo in particular has pinged me a few times (and I've called this out as I've seen it) and I'm keen for them to actual make a coherent case for their new SR on me, but unless they start obvscumming, I think they will be comparatively easier to sort d2 (ofc everyone gets easier to sort as the game goes on, but active players with a wide set of interactions in particular are easier to sort in light of additional alignment info)

This is all very much of the top of my head as I catch up, so I will try to put some effort into going through ISOs at the weekend

[Marky Mark]

Evening all

13 pages since I went to bed last night - cripes :O

I will aim to have a quick read through tonight, although you may have to wait until the weekend proper for me to spend some decent time on this game as my mind is still kinda melted from the mad pre-christmas rush at work this week

--pedit 5 posts in literally the time it took me to say good evening. SMH.

--pedit 2. Stop. Posting. So. Fast.

[Marky Mark]

Right, I have at least read the last 13 pages. Digesting it all and applying scrutiny will happen at an undisclosed date TBC

UNVOTE: Momrangal - because eliming a claimed mason would be bad. Cool things that came out of this wagon include:
--Premature claim - being elimed overnight from E-2 seems like overcaution to me (++TR for JV asking the same question that was in my head ref this in 793). This being said, I reckon the claim is probably legit because would be a massive risk to fake-claim mason and get counterclaimed.
--789 from flea casting doubt over the mason claim confused me - @Flea: why don't you believe the claim?
--973 is a mahooosive stretch from noraa to try and shade DGB by implying they were avoiding the thread in case mom got hammered in the meantime

Math makes a good argument ref infinity's seemingly inconsistent position on Mom ref whether he believed their claim or not

BUT

the bigger question is why did Toog vote there after the claim? I was TRing them before this wagon but their behavior (vote there after the claim then subsequently unvote) just straight-up confuses me. Wondering if TSTBS

Guillo is swinging ++TR of the back of the last 10 pages or so - I won't quote any single post as it is more the consistent proactiveness and analysis. @Guillo - I have skimmed your response to me ref why you SR me so thanks for taking the time to articulate that and I'll take the time to properly read it and respond tomorrow IRL.

++SR Pig for 858 - his only contribution of the back off all that drama was his unvote and some IIOA (checkout me learning all the lingo!)

Keen to hear from Flea ref why they weren't convinced ref the mason claim and from toog ref his post-claim vote. These are two potential smoking guns right now IMO

VOTE: Toogeloo seems like a good place to be for now. Ref horse, I need to look at her more as stuff like 683 where she defends Mom just feels ++TR. If they were scum and looking likely the most likely elim today then why would they try to defend the next most likely elim target at the time?

[Marky Mark]

Btw, hey Infinity and Math - great to have you both with us

I mean I would genuinely vote pig rn if I thought it would actually make them more likely to post and engage

[Marky Mark]

@Math - help me understand why you are baying so hard for a horse elim here? I've just spotted your post ref how she defended Mom earlier on and then later voted there. Is that it? Or are there other things? The new player thing is NAI but I agree that she looks scummy off the back of the whole "someone post something helpful" saga early on

--pedit @noraa, I guess guillo being new to the site and not knowing a specific player != him being new to the game

[Marky Mark]

Would take a POE rn of Toog, Horse, Flea and Vax rn.

Nono is being replaced afaik so hopefully that slot will sort itself out by having a more active player come into it. I would, however, take Pig as a compromise policy elim if we don't get much more from them. I suspect we probably have enough consensus though for this not to be an issue.

There feels like there has been a lot of unnecessary abrasiveness in some recent posts and perhaps is just new players changing the vibe, but I really hope this game doesn't descend into a slanging match like Bending did :S

[Marky Mark]

Like just to be clear I am certainly not against a horse elim today, but I think there's some sus behavior off the back of the mom wagon that needs explaining from Toog and Flea. Inf, Horse and Toog were in the 3/4/5 slots on the mom wagon so I could definitely see at least one of those slots in the wagon sweet spot being scum and would currently take toog over horse. Flea was not on the wagon but there is absolutely scum motivation for trying to so doubt on the mason claim

--pedit ah right, my mistake. Like I say, I will go through and digest stuff properly tomorrow now that I am done with work for a while, but 13 pages is just a lot to try and catch up on

[Marky Mark]

Fwiw, I did find Mom scummy and the game seemed to be going round in circles over Horse, so I voted there to have a poke at another slot that seemed sus to me in the hope that they would respond. I feel like DGB joined that wagon with similar motivations, which seems like ++TR to me

--pedit, yeah down with a prod on pig. There prodge was literally an unvote and summary of events which didn't really help at all with reading their slot

--pedit 2 I guess its mod discretion but that's literally just stating the game state, there's no attempt to even cast any slot as town/scum there

[Marky Mark]

As in Pig was literally just stating the game state, not you Math

[Marky Mark]

Right, I have at least read the last 13 pages. Digesting it all and applying scrutiny will happen at an undisclosed date TBC

--789 from flea casting doubt over the mason claim confused me - @Flea: why don't you believe the claim?

Keen to hear from Flea ref why they weren't convinced ref the mason claim and from toog ref his post-claim vote. These are two potential smoking guns right now IMO

It came without any significant pressure and without coaxing.

It's an easy claim to drop and get away with.

How is it an easy claim to get away with?? Surely they run the risk of any actual masons counterclaiming

Also, if they were then later pressured to reveal their mason partner, they would have to name a scumbuddy as if they named a townie then the townie would just hard CC them by not being a mason.

If anything, Mason feels like one of the riskiest possible fakeclaims

[Marky Mark]

Right, I have at least read the last 13 pages. Digesting it all and applying scrutiny will happen at an undisclosed date TBC

--789 from flea casting doubt over the mason claim confused me - @Flea: why don't you believe the claim?

Keen to hear from Flea ref why they weren't convinced ref the mason claim and from toog ref his post-claim vote. These are two potential smoking guns right now IMO

It came without any significant pressure and without coaxing.

It's an easy claim to drop and get away with.

How is it an easy claim to get away with?? Surely they run the risk of any actual masons counterclaiming

Also, if they were then later pressured to reveal their mason partner, they would have to name a scumbuddy as if they named a townie then the townie would just hard CC them by not being a mason.

If anything, Mason feels like one of the riskiest possible fakeclaims

That I'm aware of masons are considered incredbly powerful for town, in a closed setup with scum having more information than town they would be able to make a decent guess if that was liable to be a case or not based on their own power.

I haven't played much in the way of theme games but it seems like quite a big assumption that scum would have more info than town in terms of knowing whether a given PR was present. Even if they knew there was no masons in the town it still doesn't deal with the issue of them being asked who their mason buddies are.

How do you propose we proceed with the mom slot, based on you lack of belief in the claim?

[Marky Mark]

Also if there is masons (which I doubt), math is one of them or scum.

More importantly Flea - if you doubt there are masons, then why are you not voting/pushing momrangal, as this would mean by your logic that she was probably fakeclaiming?

[Marky Mark]

More importantly Flea - if you doubt there are masons, then why are you not voting/pushing momrangal, as this would mean by your logic that she was probably fakeclaiming?

What would it serve? There's next to 0 chance that even if someone disbelieves the claim that they get support against it. Claiming a Mason on Day 1 is like claiming IC, but that doesn't mean it should be 100% believed. No other Mason is there to back up the claim, but they also shouldn't.

There's also a chance that he has reason to believe it's fake.

For example, a Cop and Mason's can't really co-exist in a game this size from a balance perspective, so a Cop my be inclined to think it's fake. However, it would be a disservice to claim Cop just to counter Mason's.

***I'm not staying Flea is PR, fishing, or asking for a Copy to come forward.***

Suffice to say, as of right now, a vote on mom does nothing because it won't have support. Mom could still be scum, and may never name a Mason partner for that reason, but today we can at the very least shop around for the rest of the team.

This broadly makes sense - I can see how a vote might not make sense if it was not likely to lead to anything, although if I thought someone was fakeclaiming I would absolutely be jumping about it a lot more than flea seems to be

[Marky Mark]

Eh, I have to manage my energies. Even a chaotic fae like me needs to balance how much they unleash (♥ω♥ ) ~♪

Not sure how seriously this is meant, but I feel like if I thought someone was fakeclaiming then I would be investing significant effort in getting others to see it, not parking that for later in the game.

[Marky Mark]

@Flea: Ah right, that seems reasonable. You can be quite disarming sometimes, which makes it hard to tell when you are joking. I still think that your core premise of it being a fakeclaim seems unlikely and there is deffo scum motivation for wanting to cast doubt on a claim, but I understand your position better now and no longer SR you for the not voting/hard pushing momrangal aspect of that interaction

[Marky Mark]

I'm off now for some discord D&D with mates (I fully aware how tragic I am ) but will be giving this game some serious mulling over tomorrow

Take care all

[Marky Mark]

Hey all - this pace is getting a bit ridiculous.

Pig's lack of analysis/scrutiny continues on - would be really good to get some reads from them

I'm not really getting Math's argument in 1250 that not ending the day early would risk exposing the masons. I mean it's true in the general sense that the more posts that happen, the more information that is out there, which should in theory make PRs and scum both easier to identify, but I don't see how the mason factor affects this, and it concerns me that he is trying to use dodgy logic to get an elim through quickly. Tbf, we are 3 days away from deadline tho so in his defence we probably ought to start bringing things together

While Toogeloo... that aweful vote after Momrangal claimed Mason looks aweful.

Infinity at least has an excuse for keeping the vote on Mom, like Infinity thought Mom was joking with a claim and as soon as Momrangal confirmed it was serious, Infinity unvoted.
I also looked into Infinity's ISO and the posts feel generally townie.

Toogeloo in the other hand, the posts of that slot does not give me town vibes and again, they voted Mom right after she claimed Mason.

hey are ok with yeeting just anyone to generate real reads, they voted the Mason, and his ISO shows complete disinterest for game solving so, so why not just yeet him? Let's generate those real reads with his flip.

These two posts from guillo in tandem stood out to me as the first very much frames their push on toog from a SRing angle, whereas the second seems to phrase it more as a bit of SR but also semi-policy as they aren't making an effort to solve and to see what info we get from the flip

@Guillo - where does your toog vote stand on the spectrum between being SR-based and being policy/utility based?

On the toog note, I've already articulated why I find them scummy and I would like to see a wagon there today so that we can dive into that a bit more. I am, however, willing to be pragmatic and will look for a consensus vote (ideally one that fits with my POE) by the end of today to ensure we have time for due process, if the toog wagon isn't going anywhere or if toog starts towning it up and actually solving

[Marky Mark]

@Guillo - answers to your big push on me as promised below. I have

underlined

my bits for easy reading, regardless of the colour scheme chosen

Evening all, today has just been very mental with work, so apologies for not being on. This will be a flying catchup post until I get a chance to sit down properly (hopefully tomorrow)

UNVOTE: - I'll give Llama's replacement a chance to catch up and psot their thoughts of the game state. The slot is scummy an I don't want to let it slip off the hook, but my vote there serves no purpose atm.

On a similar note - I can see that Pig's vote is on No Elim, who is also being replaced.
- @Pig: Who would be your next choice to vote aside from no elim's slot?

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Mafia

I just don't get this post - like why bother stating the obvious assumption being drawn here when we can all see what Momrangal was trying to convey?

Again, i felt like your intention with your question here was to cast shade on me for stating the obvious. Why can I not? Why does it bother you? You never elaborated on that.

Clearly this is very subjective, but I thought mara made it fairly clear what she meant, so someone spelling it out unnecessarily (IMO) just felt a bit like you going "yeah, what she said" ie trying to emphasise the point without really adding anything to it.

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

This felt like condescending. "I'm loving guillo's reads" Why can't you be direct and say, I don't like these posts because this and that?

I'm sorry if I caused offense. I have not heard the terms before and they seem like vehicles for fudging reads to me. A townie scum is just a good scum and a scummy town is just a bad town IMO so it felt like you were trying to use the terminology as a bit of a crutch. I generally try to be somewhat tongue in cheek, and the terminology did make me chuckle, but I can try and be more direct as I appreciate sarcasm is hard to do well in a text-based format. I would never meaningfully offend anyone - I'm just not about that :S.

Condescending, Trivializing, Patronizing

:

This involves making light of a player’s contributions or insights, to intimidate them into losing confidence. “LOL, you’re just not very good at this, are you?”. Often this is conveyed as mere banter or joking, but always negative, and usually involving ad hominem attacks on a player, rather than directly on a player’s arguments or insights.

Noraa is guilty of this too, refer to "King Guillo's remarks".

You have an uncanny familiarity with mafia jargon for a new user in their first game onsite. Hmmm

You were gonna go down the road I'm on, were you not?

Yes, in addition to my tell, a large amount of her posts is IIOA, and even when I'm a 1v1 with Guillotine the way she moves through it and tries to get out of it is a little weird.

Yes, on page 3 I made that comment, but I also commented on her other behaviors eg her "someone do something" post and her subsequently trying to claim townpoints for it. You trying to say that we are on the same reoad here is just misleading.

What is IIOA sorry? Just not familiar with that one.

To your questions about IIOA refer to this link: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... f_Analysis

I'm loving guillos reads post with the townie scums and scummy towns. Seems like a great way to fudge your reads to me as if someone flips the opposite way to you read on them you can just say "ah he must've been a townie scum" or vice versa

@JacksonVirgo

Mark went from being townread to null read quickly for.

It feels like the kind of wolf that earns towncred early in the game and then turns that towncred on the people that townread them to discredit their reads. In the wolves mind, it would look suspicious if someone who town reads the other suddenly scum read them because town react by impulse, so you'd see no progression between both reads.

What they don't know is that it is ok for us to change our mind in the blink of an eye if something ping us because we are the uninformed majority and it is ok for us to be wrong.

10/10 strawman - if you think that I am scummy then articulate your case but this is all pure conjecture. Surely all scum want to earn towncred?? And yes, flipping reads with no progression is weird, but equally, if someone that you TR starts acting scummy then just call it out and explain why and people willl understand your progression. I'm genuinely starting to feel like your "townie scum" hunch on me was a concoction to allow you to pivot to SRing me - if you had something concrete that I was doing that was scummy then why not just use actual evidence?

@Guillo - what exactly are you SRing me for? Is it just my comment on your "townie scum"/"scummy town" post, or is there more to it?

@Pig - keen to have some reads from you

Nono's last post was like 2 days ago so I'm thinking they are maybe afk. Could definitely see them being lurkerscum here, but I'm not sure a vote would really serve much of a purpose if they aren't going to respond.

I felt that the quality of your contributions declined right after I stated that I town read you. Like as if I town read you I was gonna be forced to ignore those red flags because otherwise I would look like I cannot make my mind up.

It's honestly flattering that you think I would plan my entire game around whether you specifically were TRing me or not (sarcasm again, but in the gentle "laughing with you, not at you" sense). Sadly, the reality is that my day job has been very full on over the last week, so I have not been able to dedicate as much time to this as I would've like to. This has been compounded by the ridiculous pace of this game.

Then I remembered your interaction with Noraa where she accused you of shading her and when I pushed her on it, she couldn't provide evidence of shading whatsoever and instead, she just townread you, just because! Which was really weird! Not only that, you didn't push on that either! You didn't bother to go deep into her sudden townread on you, you just accepted it! Like if both of you were wolves, one would be telling the other "hey hey, maybe the push is a little much, stop there because you are gonna get scum read Noraa", then after a while you rolled over for her and white knighted her?

So I figure, what if these two are in it together and all of it was just theater?

So noraa pushed me, and their logic seemed pretty flawed but they seemed to believe it. I reponded to them to explain my POV and they seemed to accept this and update their reads to reflect this. Updating your SR based on the person you are pushing making a coherent defence of their actions, seems like reasonably town behaviour to me, so it didn't unduly bother me.

So I push on that and the whole convo with relaxed Noraa turned hostile quickly. Her hostility began when I stated that you and Noraa could be w/w.
Tbf, I did notice that she did get more hostile mid d1, so I can see how this looks bad fypov.
Noraa then went to past posts and began throwing shade on me for my reads and interactions with Horsewoman, whom I made a truce with (let's work together to get you town read).

It all made me feel like I am onto something because before Mark/Nora w/w theory, the chat felt like no pressure, no resistance, but after that, the chat gained this overall resistance. Specially from Noraa.

I mean for sure. You and noraa have been two of the most vocal players in this thread (esp pre-math), and I can see one of the two being scum here, but that is somewhere that I want to investigate d2 as I think the breadth of both of your interactions will make you both much easier to read in light of flips(s). If noraa flips scum then this totally makes me look scummy fypov, so I get it.

I believe that there could be a w/w or at least a v/w between you and Noraa for that.

[Marky Mark]

Ok, so we are 3 days out and it would be good to have sufficient time for due consideration, plus the eventual claims process and time to respond to that. The current players on 2+ votes are:
Horse
DGB
Toog

Of these, I would take Toog as a clear preference, but I will move my vote to horse by tonight if it becomes evident that other people aren't SRing toog to the extent that I am.

[Marky Mark]

I asked the question yesterday, but it would be really useful if Math could articulate their reasons for voting horse in a clear and concise format, or at least point me to a post where they do that, as I have a feeling based on the current consensus that that could end up being where this day is headed.

Both horse and toog were in the sweet spot on the Momrangal wagon, but of the two, horse actually seems to be making an effort to solve and to play to the town's wincon.

[Marky Mark]

*Yeets nora a sandwich to munch while reading this.*

Spoiler: OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!

Alright let's drop the act for this one, it's clear to me that anything less blunt and to the point commentary is going to be considered by our sharpened steel friend here.

My name is not Joseph! How dare you!

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

Guillotina!!!! Ooooweeee

Yaaaah! I'm here to lighten your days yo!

Make your days grand while killing scum!

Which given these have a nice and chill vibe to them amuses me greatly.

Hi I'm new go easy

VOTE: DGB sure

New to the forum right?

MINE

Yah, new to the forum.

VOTE: No Elim. But not like the user no elim, like a vote to not elim

VOTE: No elim

Ok

{. Are you new to the forum or pretending to be new to the forum?

very sad! low energy! lame!

This denotes excitement, wants to get the game going. Horsewoman, it's a 10-day Day phase game.

I did want to drive the game forward but I didn't (and don't) have any reads this early so I hoped someone else would do it for me

You were bored and you are probably used to fast games.

To some extent, sure. It wasn't entirely serious in tone because I rarely am.

Yah, you've been fucking around.

Trying to get the game to progress out of RVS/apathy stage is absolutely a pro-town mindset

Not necessarily

Now this is his 4th post, and the game has moved on to page 3, almost page 4.

This is fairly

sharp

shift in tone and seems to be setting up for a SR imo.

Alright, someone do the protown thing and create something dumb and artificial to get us out of RVS

I did want to drive the game forward but I didn't (and don't) have any reads this early so I hoped someone else would do it for me

This is the post of my main read, they're not even trying to post on interactions or anything. The game right now is on page 3, nobody would really have any solid reads at all but it doesn't mean we all just give up and let other's do everything. I first read this as a joke post as I've said, which is why I brushed off Marks read but then when they made that second post I quoted said that it was at least semi-serious and that's plain anti-town behaviour and I'm not going to let that slip regardless if they're Town acting anti-town.

Trying to get the game to progress out of RVS/apathy stage is absolutely a pro-town mindset

And then when I called it out for being anti-town behaviour they flipped the wording to make them look like they're actively trying to push the game out of RVS and solve and in extension discredit my case, they're blatantly trying to sap the town-cred from RVS. This is just straight scummy behaviour, what Town would twist the wording in this situation for their own self-gain.

Two questions, 1) do you think HW gave up and let others do everything?

2) In your experience, do all town members behave and act upon posts the same?

Testing the waters maybe? I'm probably stretching here but this is what it feels like to me at the moment.

Of course not, some prime examples of anti-town behaviour include

Not_Mafia, Not_Mafia and Not_Mafia.

Is this an reference I'm supposed to understand? I'm also new here so I didn't get it.

Me too! Hey look you made a fluff post with no point to it, what's the world coming to, hm?

Nice try at discrediting my way of game solving.

First, if the deep dive goes absolutely nowhere is because the content of it didn't. Thank you.
Two, my deep dive allowed me deduce that you attempted to noobtell and miserably failed.
Three, makes me wonder why you tried to noobtell? Either alignment do this, but why did you?

If the deep dive goes absolutely nowhere, then you're not doing it right, quite frankly. Your deep dive was a setup for something that hasn't quite panned out and is now making you look bad.

If you want to call people out for no-contenting, then at least provide some yourself. You can always provide content from nothing.

Ok well im now 99% sure I have soul read on Flea and I think they're scum. Maybe will explain why later. A bit cautious treading in this territory cuz last I SRed Flea, they were town. Gimme some time to think.

Have you explained why already?

You could just read yourself and see.

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Now I like this one. "Hah you thought this point but not this point! Therefore you are scum, my dear!"

Also I'll have you know I'm just as fluffy in real life. My queer butt just wants to love, be loved and hug friendos!

And also I will protect those I consider within the boundaries of my inner circle with my life. A truly scary sight to witness a fight or flight instinct be controlled and wielded in such a manner with reckless disregard for all but whom I stand to protect.

But thankfully the world isn't that full of meanies so I don't have to do that ʕ灬￫ᴥ￩灬ʔ

AtE?

Flea, what do you think about Horsewoman so far?

This ones also interesting. The context has been left out, potentially leaving it to be twisted for later deeds. It's a strictly out of game comment aimed at Nora when it comes to my personality beyond the game. You then take this moment to prod me on HW.

barely caring about other people's SRs on you(which is a newbscum tell that says they know the people SRing are right so they are avoiding)

Thinking about it, this feels like an inaccuracy - in my (limited) experience, newbscum tend to panic when people vote them rather than playing it cool like a more seasoned player. Not sure if you are stretching the truth to fit the facts here or have just had a different experience of playing with new players (entirely possible).

Btw - pagetop without even realising until I'd posted #oblivious #ImJustThatGood

This is inaccurate. NoobsScum will ignore and evade town that scum read them by instinct.

A noob town will panic because in their own perspective, they should be obvious town cause they are being honest, so when they get votes they panic because they dont understand it.

Not always. If we were children, maybe.

Also I'll have you know I'm just as fluffy in real life. My queer butt just wants to love, be loved and hug friendos!

And also I will protect those I consider within the boundaries of my inner circle with my life. A truly scary sight to witness a fight or flight instinct be controlled and wielded in such a manner with reckless disregard for all but whom I stand to protect.

But thankfully the world isn't that full of meanies so I don't have to do that ʕ灬￫ᴥ￩灬ʔ

AtE?

Flea, what do you think about Horsewoman so far?

Not at all, just reflecting on my mannerisms ^_^ I am the universal parent friendo

Horsey is sus, but nothing significant as of yet.

If there is nothing significant, why you sus her? Explain please.

This is setting up for later, it's almost like gut instinct isn't allowed and I'm not allowed have my read without justification.

Town: JacksonViggo, Nora

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama

For now

Why mention me specifically? This is part of a setup imo.

If there is nothing significant, why you sus her? Explain please.

Gut reads and overall tone. Nothing significant and nothing worth building a case on.

#212 is interesting though, what are you trying to achieve with this reads list?

Notes for my future self and my teammates, should I die, they can look into my ISO.

I love this.
It's stupidly NAI worded xD

Weird.

Show us where you thought Mark was shading people.

Nah I liked his reply and now TR him. If he starts being scummy again tho, my walls of evidence will come strolling in in some tall high heels like clickety clack clack.

Maybe i was wrong townreading you. This is not how town proceeds.

VOTE: Noraa

Evidence of shading or i'll park this vote.

OBEY ME OR I'M GOING TO JUST be kinda lazy... hm.

Town: JacksonViggo, Mark

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama, Noraa

This is about where I’m at as well although I don’t think all three of those are scum together, I think at least one is though if that makes sense.

Yah i dont think I'm actually God of mafia and found 3 wolves in day 1. But those slots need to get sorted.

Horsewoman is obvscum! I'd yeet her first.

Potential associative? This is an extreme shift though, that pressure vote just *poof* gone faster than a fart in the wind. The vote on Noraa is now serving no purpose.

OK fine I can't help myself OK? This is why I said its half and half

VOTE: horsewoman

Why?

Because she's obvscum, obviously. pfft. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Yes, i was attempting to discredit your deep dive because it was dumb. I wasnt trying to discresit you as a person or your slot. I also wasnt discrediting the deep dive because I thought you were onto me - the idea is laughable.

In a couple of hours I will read the game properly and come to conclusions

Curious again, i never said you did discredit me for any of those things, but if it is in your mind, it's because it's true.

Curious how you fought the noobtell accusation but not the "attempt at discrediting me" one.

VOTE: Horsewoman

Yes, i was attempting to discredit your deep dive because it was

smart

. I

WAS

trying to discresit you as a person or your slot. I also

WAS

discrediting the deep dive because I thought you were onto me - the idea is

NOT

laughable.

In a couple of hours I will read the game properly and come to conclusions

This is what you are psychologically telling me.

I like these two posts...

Literally Guillotina putting words in mouth and trying to force something that I don't think is there.

This is an impressive Deathtunnel, shame about the execution though.

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

LOOOK AT MEEEEE! I'M MR GUUUILLLLOTIIIIIINA!!!!
Attempt at putting pressure back on Noraa, which I sadly know won't work.
"You're obvscum! And I'mma vote yoooou! except you're not so amma vote Noraa instead because she won't OBEY." (✿˘艸˘✿)

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

That basis for lock-scumming Horse is kinda weak. Just because you SR them doesn't mean town!them would SR you back.

A town wouldn't be afraid to OMGUS me if my pushes on them seemed so aggressive. I was expecting her to woman up and say fuck you! And vote me, cause that's what I'd do. As town i wouldn't just ignore you and let you paint me as scum, if you are framing me, you are going down with me.

And yet there's an actual post where I literally just OMGUS'd and I got the best interaction in this game yet from it

Did Noraa froze?

Horsewoman, Llama slot and Noraa is where I'll vote today.

JK, Mark. Whom you'd most likely vote to yeet here?

See this is where I think these constant read lists are a little butt bitey. It's entirely NAI but I find it amusing that these lists are being stuck to like rigidly. There's 3 options and 3 options only. There's no information on town leans and no effort to solve outside these lists IMO.

Helpful PC User EBWOP for him

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

That basis for lock-scumming Horse is kinda weak. Just because you SR them doesn't mean town!them would SR you back.

A town wouldn't be afraid to OMGUS me if my pushes on them seemed so aggressive. I was expecting her to woman up and say fuck you! And vote me, cause that's what I'd do. As town i wouldn't just ignore you and let you paint me as scum, if you are framing me, you are going down with me.

They aren't you, not everyone is the same.

Townie response.

Flea, are you town? Your ISO is more fluff than game solving as of now.

Two in one.
As I've said earlier, I'm fluffy af as a person.o(〃＾▽＾〃)o
My game policy is "I'm here for good time not for long time!"
You cut past the fluff I post, and you'll find content. You have to be willing to work for it, which to me at this point it's clear you're not and I get a frustrated vibe from you towards me because of all this. Partly why I've dropped most of the persona from this ISO so you can read it and not get pissed off I have quite a developed reads list at this point and have fewer nulls than you

Look inside and be afraid, of this impressive mess I've made. If you take a look now you will fiiiiiiiiind! I have done away with lies, done away with paradise, see whats going on inside my miiieeeeennnnnnnd mwahahaha

Has No Elim posted at all?

Just as a friendly pointer, there's the ISO sections which let you look at players in ISOlation, and there's the Activity overview on the bottom that lets you see how active players are and how long since they last posted

As a less friendly note... this be fluff

Ur town play is trash then if that's how you think. OMGUSing is something nearly every newbie does but thinking it is optimal play is pretty bad.

Btw, my vote is gonna go here for a bit.
VOTE: Guillotina

The irony.

By the way, you don't get town points for OMGUSing me after I said why I think town would or should.

OMGUS is a term created by wolves to discredit town hunches on votes against them.

Also, next time I would appreciate if you did take quotes out of context, that's a very scummy thing to do. Do not worry though, I will look into the original posts for context.

Oh, my god. You suck.
A term created by wolves to discredit town pushes... but you want people to OMGUS you...
It's not a bad thing to do, honestly. and for some play styles, it's optimal. I use it occasionally because it gives me information I can work with ¡¡¡( •̀ ᴗ •́ )و!!!
But then I'm a weird player

By the way, you don't get town points for OMGUSing me after I said why I think town would or should.

OMGUS is a term created by wolves to discredit town hunches on votes against them.

you just called urself scum lol.

Nice try! I did,'t create the term dummy. It's been on existence since way before you started playing this.

See this is why I love Nora, Nora picks up on this shiz but doesn't call it out like I do.
Gulliotina coming in with the strawman defence.

Ok so

Town

Mark
JK
Momrangal

Null

Flea
Nono
DGB
no elim

Scum

Noraa
Horsewoman
LlamaMama
AGamblingPig
Toogeloo

And now we have a full reads list. All nulls included.

I'll keep my vote on Noraa, but i'm willing to come to a consensus with the people I town read to vote for someone else, as long as that someone else is in my scum list.

I like this.

"You can work with me but I'll only work with you if its in my interests!"

Now Noraa, see this? This is shading!


Flea, would you rather if i negotiated for a yeet in my town read list? How about in my null list? And why?

Double contexter, I actually quite like the response to my shade and it's AI IMO.

To answer the question, town reads not at all, null reads, yes. Absolutely yes. Your nulls should be a main focus IMO. Those are slots you need to sort. Given I've been specifically placed in your null list that means I've done something worthy of your attention, meaning I should be sorted by now. You've at best been idlying playing with your scum reads at this point and I get a lazy cat vibe from you overall.

I can't not say I won't read fae not aligned with anti-town.

Faer fluffy.

I agree.

You went up to null, because you are either a smartass town or God Level WIFOM Mafia.

This is not a valid read to increase the read on someone.
You don't improve a read based on WIFOM drops or someone being a smartass. WIFOM is the weapon of the foul and low.

Town

Mark
JK
Momrangal

Null

Nono
DGB
no elim
Toogeloo

Scum

Flea
Noraa
Horsewoman
LlamaMama
AGamblingPig

Now we have some meat. Me and Toogs have swapped places. All I did was yeet some shade, and now I'm scum. Toogs was a smartass/WIFOM-bomber and moved up.
This progression is WEEEEERRRRIIIIIIDD!

These posts are going to be your downfall... Your progression on me feels a lil weird.ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

I’m aware i can be wrong and I’m willing to be proven wrong.

Do that instead of posting fluff after fluff. Help me townread you if you are town. If you are wolf, keep doing what you are doing, i love it!

Which is manifested here. Now my posts are fluff after fluff after fluff. That lazy cat vibe is back again. I know there's content in my posts, and so do others. You just have to effort it to find it.

It's then the "Help me help you!" line... of laziness. This is more refusal to do anything and condemning me because of how I play the game. It's another case of "OBEY ME OR ELSE (i'm just going to be lazy and just like.. fluff push you I guess?)".

Town: JacksonViggo, Nora

Null: Flea

Scum: Horsewoman, LlamaMama

For now

Confused why you would pick out Flea specifically as being null (as opposed to the other 9 players implicitly null by not being in your list)?

At the time i had no impressions about others. Only those names.

Flea gave me mixed feelings then, so null.

I still find it odd I was mentioned and looking at it, it looks like a setup for later to me.

Scum reads have to come from somewhere, and I'm not fond of people picking on low hanging fruit

Who is the LHF here?

+1

I've not quoted the follow up posts but its great to have guillotine on the same wavelength (

unless its a pocket

ofc )

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Horsewoman

Cheeky naked vote on consensus SR. Have some scumpoints.

Pig and Nono's 0-context votes seem sus to me, especially when we are getting beyond RVS

Both of these two were V/LA at the time of his push

Yeah, nah. Try harder please. Both dropped a no-context vote

prior

to going V/LA, when the game was getting well beyond RVS. This is a behaviour that is scummy, so I called it out. Would it have been better to ignore it?

Btw lol, I'm loving JV and Guillotine taking Noraa to task on their push on me, before I've replied. Welcome to the

Marky Mark entourage guy

s :3

First bold, if it is a pocket, it’s a town pocket so do not worry. Unless you are wolf, then you should worry as town do pocket wolves too.

Second bold, i know what you are implying here and I love it because that thought process could only come from town.

IIoA-ish. Also I'm glad you know what you meant with the second bold, because I don't.

Horsewoman raised several red flags before i said “definitely scum”.

Do you suggest i pace myself down though?

I'm not seeing them though, and not as being called out from you... You've been on HW since the start of the day with saying she's scummy.

@mark I understand. Still believe HW is scum and until she towns up, she is not getting out of my list.

PFFT. You keep repeating that yet ur vote's on me. LOL.

You got a point. I did say my vote would go to HW if you answered my questions about Mark's shading posts.

I'm a man of my word.

VOTE: Horsewoman

You are still in my scum list though.

I freaking love Nora, she is my kinda chaos - and this to me is one of the definitions of OMGUS, called out for something and bites back.

I said that i would be judging the game based on this game's actions. So any kind of meta is irrelevant to me including people's self meta.

This is worth noting because....

Flea - I wish you'd stop using so many spoiler tags. It makes it easy to miss the content of your posts, which are pretty good.

Early posting looks like honest scum hunting.

Town for now.

Toog - I'm fine with any votes for horse.

But the early serious vote smells of bussing.

Then again maybe I'm just paranoid.

First bold, what early posts from Flea looked like scum hunting? Maybe you are seeing something I'm not.

Second bold, do you really believe there is utility for scum to bus a teammate on D1, when it's really easy to try to do anything else but that? Have you played as scum before?

I think a lot of people are seeing things you're not and there's ALWAYS utility to bus. For someone who has just thrown meta out of the window, why are you interested if someones played a game as an alignment before? That is a form of meta.

Well for one, i purposely change my meta in every game, that way noone can reference meta about me and have to solve me base on the game im playing. Two, I was extremely arrogant and irresponsible in SirCakez game, i FPS, but I'm not ready to do that again in a community where I'm new at, so, you get standard focused Guillo in this one.

"I AM UNREEEEEEAAAAAADABLEEEE!!! BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH*coughcoughsplutter*
Sadly as someone who uses a persona to play this game and avoid meta, patterns will always emerge no matter how you try and play. Oh, and self-meta is here

Sorry nornor, that means your soul reads on me aren't on me but on the person and will probably always be wrong <3

Btw, my vote is gonna go here for a bit.
VOTE: Guillotina

You're voting away from your 99% soul-read on scum!flea again? Can you explain why you're doing that and why you're voting them when I think they're fairly townie + you give no reasonings here.

Noraa town reads Flea now.

IIoA. Not only that, it's putting words in her mouth. This looks like framing to me.

I do not TR horse any more cuz this many SRs on her is making me nervous of my ability to find scum but I will argue that the case on her isnt as good as maybe everyone thinks.

Help me see it. Do me a point by point of why I might be wrong about HW.

MEEEEOOOOOOWWWW!!!

Half way through an ISO, have been distracted with a stardew game with my goblin and gremlin. Will finish later.

More fluff.

So is this, honestly. Yes it's NAI and doing nothing in and of itself, however, it's still doing something. I'm not going to explain it to you though, you're a lazy butt.

Just because you cannot see something, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Noraa is either scum playing dumb or a Naive Town.

Non-commital and sitting on a fence. This right here, is a fluff post. I'll do a comparison after this.

I mean I'm pretty sure horse is new *to this site* but not new to mafia in general. isn't that misleading imo but I can see where the confusion comes from and why someone might misinterpret it as her trying to pull a newb card.

She specifically said " hi, I'm new! Go easy on me"

I made an entire wall about how that was more likely to come from scum

I mean if she's new to this site, she's not familiar with site meta and stuff like that. I find it not crazy to ask for people to go easy on her.

Yeah I just wanted you all not to call me names and stuff, I dont know anyone here is the thing.

Also sorry for not posting anything substantive in aaages, couple of bad mental health days. Sadly the streak will continue as I will be unable to post anything substantive for some hours now.

I'm gonna look like an asshole, but this sounds a lot like AtE. I hope you do get better but I still suspect this slot.

Yes, yes you do. If someone says their mental health is crap you don't throw it at them as AtE to get out of something. Anyone using that as an excuse honestly deserves to be in the bin.

I myself have several conditions that affect my ability to play as much as I would like and people have simply said "No worries, catch up when you can. If you're able are you able to answer these questions for me?"

We're good folk here <3

Evening all, today has just been very mental with work, so apologies for not being on. This will be a flying catchup post until I get a chance to sit down properly (hopefully tomorrow)

UNVOTE: - I'll give Llama's replacement a chance to catch up and psot their thoughts of the game state. The slot is scummy an I don't want to let it slip off the hook, but my vote there serves no purpose atm.

On a similar note - I can see that Pig's vote is on No Elim, who is also being replaced.
- @Pig: Who would be your next choice to vote aside from no elim's slot?

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Mafia

I just don't get this post - like

why bother

stating the obvious assumption being drawn here

when we can all see

what Momrangal was trying to convey?

Also, this did feel like shading. I don't believe you are an idiot if you are playing this game so I don't believe your question was a real one. Then you state that we can all see what Momrangal was trying to convey. Who is all? Did you ask each and every one of us to come to that conclusion?

For someone doing absolutely bare minimum themselves, this is a big ask.

I don't have much of a read on that slot, so vote and see.

Nah, I'm not voting outside my scum list, but!

We can scrutinize!

@Momrangal

You scumread Horsewoman and I agree.

Who else do you scum read? Who do you town read?
And more importantly, why?

GIT IN MAH POKIT!

I also wanna point out, theres been no reads lists recently.

"Hi! I'm new to this game! Plz go ez on me"

well this actually sounds dull upon reread.
lemme try saying that again with some more sarcasm.

"Hi! I'm new to this game as in I've never played a game with this mod, this setup, and this plist all in one! Plz go ez on me"

Yeah I get why its weird. I have seen horsewoman call herself new all over the site tho(outside of the mafia forum) so ......

Now this is revealing.

Care to share games where she's done this. It would be great if you can share a game where she was town and another one where she was mafia and she did this. Because then I could treat it as a behavior pattern rather than an AI.

Dude this is my second game of MS mafia and the first is ongoing.

I'm talking about the alleged "Outside of MS games". Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Damn I wish I could stretch this well...

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

Bro you talking like i was trying to hide my mafia experience (which was 72 hour day phases and really casual) but I immediately said I had experience when asked even though i easily could have pretended to be totally new as the forum i played on is now down and I didnt even use this username so nobody was catching me

Wrong, you can't say that you could have easily pretended to be totally new, when it only took two posts to catch you. Let's put it this way, you might be a seasoned player but you are a terrible liar, the problem here is, why you tried to lie to us?

this is beautiful, I think amma cry :')

You still think it's not crazy to ask to be treated like a noob when you have mafia experience?

This is my first game since 2018 and I played only a handful of games then. The site meta has changed drastically in those two years leaving me very unfamiliar with people, and the prevalent playstyles. Yet, it would be extremely odd if I asked to be taken easy on but if no one knew about that, no one would think twice about it and they would even have the urge (whether they know it or not) to take it easy on the perceived newbie.

There is only one alignment who would really want to be treated in that manner

This is a train of thought that I have seen many times that basically goes 'only mafia would care about being lynched/treated badly'. Completely wrong! Being mislynched sucks on an emotional level and it also hurts town on a game level! Town have a huge interest in not being lynched.

See this is what I'm talking about? You want us to town read you but you take posts out of context and AtE to try to get us to not push you, which makes me want to push you more. She is talking about, why would any of us would take it easy on you because you are new? Why would we believe that you are new? Why do we care that you are new or experienced? There are games for newbies here. You could have signed to one of those but you chose to sign up for a no-newbies game, which is fine! But don't expect preferential treatment.

Being myslynched sucks, but that is what towns are destined to be, some of us will have to die, so others can get info out of our deaths and solve the game. Don't take it personally, it is part of the game, don't act like it is not.

Now I'm gonna let go of your "noob" BS and work with you, help me townread you.

I will lose my mind, make it real this tiiiiime, to leave it all behind. I won't cry wolf.
Show me a sign, planets will align,
I'm gunna blow my mind. I won't, cry wolf.

Ok. Horsewoman is definitely scum. She votes Toogeloo for a naked vote instead of me for tunneling her?

She is afraid to cast that vote on me because she knows im town and im right.



Luckily for HW, Noraa will get my vote if she does not tell me what “shading” Mark did. Ts ts ts.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

i didn't vote for you because hardcore, ridiculous irrational tunneling usually comes from town, which is what you're doing.

Stop this! We are past that unless you want me to keep tunneling you. I asked you for reads on people, can you please provide them?

Would you kindly, obey? obey. OBEY. OBEY.

Saying "go easy on me" is expecting preferential treatment! Think about that hard.

If you stop engaging with my posts I will never townread you, i think it is in your best interest to convince me that you are town. I'm willing to move past your failed noob gimmick attempt and start over! There are many ways to find out if you are scum or not.

Look, town can lie too, there are many players here that yeet all liars no matter the reasons, I disagree. Town can lie for good reasons, for dumb reasons or just because the slot is a compulsive liar that randed town (not saying that any of these are you), I wanted to see why you tried to lie about that and see if such lie can come from a town slot.
I'm not convinced you are town. tbf.

I'm looking forward to your engagement! Bring me a pelt.

This is going beyond attacking the slot at this point.
Also, MEOW!

Oh I do have a question though, what is 'shading'? Seen people use that term like 10 times this game, no idea what it means. Is it just being sketchy/shady?

Shading is like putting someone on a bad light in bad faith. It's the act of de-valuating, gaslighting and trivializing other people.

You should read this: https://forum.mafia451.com/t/10-psychol ... -mafia/739

Disagree.
Shading is the act of throwing shade and suspicion on a slot and mocking some of the content.
Gaslighting is an abuse tactic.
Devaluing evidence and reads is standard play.
Trivialising people also shouldn't be done as it can drive people down and out. Trivialise the reads and motivations, not the people.

I think Toogeloo is scummy, I just don't know if it's scummy town or just scum. I'm looking closely there but you are right, it's hard to look when the slot is not creating content.

Marky Mark, i generally town lean, but his tone sometimes is... I don't know how to explain it other than, he is either town, or a townie scum. You know like there are scummy towns? Well there are also townie scums. My gut and my brain is fighting over on whether Mark is town or a townie scum.

Noraa, I tend to agree on that one, problem is that everything else from her is bad. Specially her sudden townread on Marky after accusing him of shading and scum reading him for it.

Flea, yah fae have this gimmicky careless approach right? Wonder if that is genuine or it is staged.

Both. Literally both. This ISO is dropping the persona aspect of me and yeah I'm still acting like an idiot

It may be genuine, it may be staged, either way it's easy to overlook the garnishes and read the player. So right now on page 19... I find nothing worrisome at all.

This tells me absolutely nothing.

Try reading o(≧∇≦o)

VOTE: Flea The Magician

You try contributing with quality content instead of fluff and smartass comments. How about that?

But you boosted your Toogs read based on a smartass comment I just want to be loved damnnit!

The thing is, DGBs post says a lot. that you're unable to put the work in and see says a lot.

Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Can you back this up with quotes.

No, follow the conversation. The game is only 19 pages long. Or ISO me.

HOW DAAAAARE YOU ASK ME, MR MITTENS, TO DO SOME WORK!

Now I'm gonna let go of your "noob" BS and work with you, help me townread you.

This pings me as somewhat LAMIST

That's because im open towning.

Debatable.

Like ultimately, when I push people I want them to respond and argue with me so that I can refine my read based on their responses

This is good to know because im the same. After all, people can fake an alignment but behavioral traits come out at a subconscious level, those cant be faked.

Good argument in favour of Meta really

"Hi! I'm new to this game! Plz go ez on me"

well this actually sounds dull upon reread.
lemme try saying that again with some more sarcasm.

"Hi! I'm new to this game as in I've never played a game with this mod, this setup, and this plist all in one! Plz go ez on me"

Yeah I get why its weird. I have seen horsewoman call herself new all over the site tho(outside of the mafia forum) so ......

@JacksonVirgo

Hey look the kitty brought us a dead spider

Noraa seems to know a great deal about you despite you've only played two games here. Are you sure you two are not wolf partners?

Can you back this up with quotes.

No, follow the conversation. The game is only 19 pages long. Or ISO me.

I'm not going to allow you to just shade someone for something you can't even be bothered to prove. Own your words

I dont like that word, i never intent to shade when im town. I scum hunt

Scum claim! xD

Spoiler: Conclusion!

Guillotina is scum without a doubt for me. the sheer number of contradictions, laziness and demanding behaviors lead me to lockscum this slot. There's been many posts since where he's incriminated himself by being lazy, demanding others do things while he does nothing, and requesting meta information while being anti-meta.

My intention with this ISO was to investigate and confirm a scumread, and honestly nothing can save this slot from my PoV at this time.

Spoiler: Bonus post! Fluff posting comparisons!

It may be genuine, it may be staged, either way it's easy to overlook the garnishes and read the player. So right now on page 19... I find nothing worrisome at all.

This tells me absolutely nothing.

Try reading o(≧∇≦o)

VOTE: Flea The Magician

You try contributing with quality content instead of fluff and smartass comments. How about that?

OK so, DGB has said here it has no problem reading me despite my fluffiness, and in 19 pages it's found nothing wrong with my posts.

You've obviously not read the post.

Now we come to where you've accused me of only posting fluff...

Half way through an ISO, have been distracted with a stardew game with my goblin and gremlin. Will finish later.

More fluff.

This isn't fluff. Fluff doesn't achieve anything, this says I'm doing something and have been distracted by my kids needing me. Yeah we played Stardew, I take mental health seriously.

Has No Elim posted at all?

This is both fluff and laziness, you're aware of the tools available to see if no elim had posted and you didn't use them, instead opting to ask someone else to do your work for you and looking like you're doing something.

I'm quoting this so I can come back to it once I've finished catching up, as holy fuck this is big.

Yeah, I really struggled to pick through this. It would've been more helpful to have a concise summary of the key points rather than an extended post, a fair chunk of which is very speculative. We have a reasonably active playerlist, but given the pace of the game, I can't see all of the plist taking the time to read this

[Marky Mark]

What would be really helpful rn would be some reads from toog beyond his vote on HW to help with sorting his slot

--pedit @JV yeah, that interaction if anything looks bad on HW's 1167 as it takes what seemed to me to be a light-hearted post from DGB and twists it to imply that DGB is flip-hunting

[Marky Mark]

JV, Math, guillotine, Nora's aren't getting lynched today

I wouldn't think twice on a horse, infinity, toogers or mark but everyone other than 4 mentioned are fair game

Always stuck in second place. Sad

I am a sad little Mathy.

>:)

You're the first one to come last owo

I mean her four SRs are 4/5 people who were on her wagon, which I can get from their pov but feelsbad to have my name batted around with 2 of my POE :S

[Marky Mark]

I scum read them. I must note that they give me suicidal vibes, like they are aware how it looks and they don't care, seems like they are baiting themselves to get yeeted. If you look into their ISO there is a post where they say something along the lines of “i considered eliminating you after myself” (this is totally a paraphrase).

Yeah I totally got the semi-suicidal vibe, like they didn't care how blatant their behaviour was, especially in terms of how they joined and then subesquently left the Momrangal wagon.

[Marky Mark]

Why not? I would even if it was not directed at me. Do you recommend other players to ignore it? Are you not going to read my equally long reply to that long post? What if i said that my long wall post is more readable than Faer as the fonts were colored to stand out (unless you got ocular problems of course).

To me it was important to reply to her antagonizing ill intended long post on me, i think it is important you read it and my reply to it as well.

Clearly I am not recommending other players ignore it - it would be great if everyone read every post in the game. I am, however, a pragmatist, so I was just giving the advice that shorter, more concise dives would probably get more widely read. A lot of it also felt very speculative/borderline confbiased, which I noted you picked up in your response (tbqh I skimmed your response, but will read as time allows). An example of this confbias/stretching is you having them as null in your reads list, which tbf I found odd but made sense when you explained it.

[Marky Mark]

Thanks for the explanation Math.

I think I understand the broad strokes of your argument, although some of the finer detail around the initial wagon forming on horse confused me.

I find it hard to see a world where horse is town and math is scum because I just feel like it would look too sus for him after he has driven the push on her so hard. That being said:

I really think horse is scum and if she isn’t then we can look at who moved off of her and what wagons and look at JV or Nora.

Worries me somewhat, because it feels like it could be scum setting up for chained miselims

I still think toog is flying under the radar here and I would really like to see more pressure applied there.
@Toog - as I have asked before, what reads do you have on the playerlist other than HW? If HW is scum, as you clearly think she is by your vote then who do you see as potential buddies?

That being said, if there is no increase in interest of eliming toog in the next couple of hours or so then I will consolidate onto HW.

Honestly, IMO probably the most AI thing that has happened today was the wagon on a claimed mason. Infin/Horse/Toog being 3/4/5 on that wagon probably has 1+ scum there, and horse and/or toog would be my most likely bets.

[Marky Mark]

Well that's my only fellow toog-voter moving onto HW, so it looks like the toog wagon is not going to be viable.

Intent to hammer

HW and would like to hear a claim first.

[Marky Mark]

@Guillo - why HW over toog? I thought we both had a similar thought process there in terms of the fact that both look sus from their wagon position on the Momrangel wagon but HW has (at times) at least actively been trying to solve

[Marky Mark]

I'll hammer horse if we need it. I just want to get to tomorrow.

Incidentally, was looking back over Vax's ISO and
a.) This post is scummy in its own right
b.) It is rather odd that HW went on a crusade against Math/Momrangel/DGB for (allegedly) wanting flips, but failed to pick up Vax for the same thing:

Basically I said momrangal/DGB/Mathblade had all displayed that mindset, but momrangal is semi-confirmed town and MathBlade had other indications of scumhunting so I was really suspicious of DGB

-- pedit: @Guillo, ok that largely makes sense. I think you are probably overstating the impact of you personally pushing her affecting her approach to the game, esp given how many others were pushing her too.

[Marky Mark]

Thanks for the explanation Math.

I think I understand the broad strokes of your argument, although some of the finer detail around the initial wagon forming on horse confused me.

I find it hard to see a world where horse is town and math is scum because I just feel like it would look too sus for him after he has driven the push on her so hard.

That being said:

I really think horse is scum and if she isn’t then we can look at who moved off of her and what wagons and look at JV or Nora.

Worries me somewhat, because it feels like it could be scum setting up for chained miselims

I still think toog is flying under the radar here and I would really like to see more pressure applied there.
@Toog - as I have asked before, what reads do you have on the playerlist other than HW? If HW is scum, as you clearly think she is by your vote then who do you see as potential buddies?

That being said, if there is no increase in interest of eliming toog in the next couple of hours or so then I will consolidate onto HW.

Honestly, IMO probably the most AI thing that has happened today was the wagon on a claimed mason. Infin/Horse/Toog being 3/4/5 on that wagon probably has 1+ scum there, and horse and/or toog would be my most likely bets.

Why are you writing 90% of this post with horse as town?

My underlines for emphasis (the second one especially) - please explain to me how 90% of the post sees horse as town?

The only thing I can see that you could construe that way is me commenting on your 1373 and that is why I used the words

could be

as people starting to chalk up potential scumspects for the next day is something that I have seen scum do before and something that I wanted to call out. Clearly if HW flips scum, and I think there is a good chance of that don't get me wrong, then this is completely moot, but I am going to call out stuff that pings me when I see it.

[Marky Mark]

@Toog - as I have asked before, what reads do you have on the playerlist other than HW?

I'll worry about that later.

I would like to know now actually, so that we can see your current view of the gamestate for transparency ahead of flips/NKs. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for your position on more than 1 player.

Speaking of which, where is pig at? I really think that a replacement on that slot would be to everyone's benefit, if they are not going to actively participate.

[Marky Mark]

fwiw

[Marky Mark]

getting bare pagetops this game

--pedit: beaten to it, but will leave it here because I'm proud of myself for it

[Marky Mark]

The first underline is exactly what I am talking about.

The good chunk of that post is going if Horsewoman is town. I wanted to know why you’re starting from that perspective.

It's not though? The first underline is me musing that it feels unlikely that you are scum and she is town. I really don't quite follow your logic here.

More generally, I think horse is likely scum, but I am not 100% certain. Me calling out you starting to slate up potential scumspects for d2 is not arguing that horse is town here, it is just calling out behaviour that seems sus. I am actually calling you out on a para where you're talking about possible suspects if horse!town, so it's a bit rich to imply that I'm talking about her like she's town off that back of that.

[Marky Mark]

Hey Pig, great to have you with us I appreciate with the current pace there is a lot to keep up with

What are your reads outside of toog?

[Marky Mark]

@Toog - as I have asked before, what reads do you have on the playerlist other than HW?

I'll worry about that later.

I would like to know now actually, so that we can see your current view of the gamestate for transparency ahead of flips/NKs. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for your position on more than 1 player.

Speaking of which, where is pig at? I really think that a replacement on that slot would be to everyone's benefit, if they are not going to actively participate.

I wasn't aware that my opinion of multiple players was going to affect the actions of others during the evening so greatly. My apologies.

The point is not particularly that it will change the flow of d1, but that it will provide transparency going into d2.

[Marky Mark]

The first underline is exactly what I am talking about.

The good chunk of that post is going if Horsewoman is town. I wanted to know why you’re starting from that perspective.

It's not though? The first underline is me musing that it feels unlikely that you are scum and she is town. I really don't quite follow your logic here.

More generally, I think horse is likely scum, but I am not 100% certain. Me calling out you starting to slate up potential scumspects for d2 is not arguing that horse is town here, it is just calling out behaviour that seems sus. I am actually calling you out on a para where you're talking about possible suspects if horse!town, so it's a bit rich to imply that I'm talking about her like she's town off that back of that.

I am just tired and am having trouble explaining.

Where is the other half? Ie what if horse is scum?

My observation was simply that of the four possible combinations of alignments (T/T, T/S, S/T, SS), the specific combo of you being scum and her being town seemed unlikely.

[Marky Mark]

@Infinity, who are your SRing here besides DGB? You seem keen to defend Toog/Horse so you must have a pretty different view of the gamestate to most of the plist right now

Horse's push on toog feels like it is grasping for straws (although this does fit with her playstyle of being quite flinchy, so not as AI as it might be on some players). It is getting very late my time, so will sleep on it and hammer in the morning unless there is a gargantuan change in the gamestate

--pedit 1460 is more of a stretch than HW's previous pushes on toog eg trying to insinuate that toog was PR fishing flea rather than talking in hypotheticals

[Marky Mark]

I've been pushing toog since before anyone else was pushing him and it's been my longest-standing and most consistent read of the game. As you should be aware.

I was specifically referring to your posts pushing him over the last couple of pages. Apologies if that wasn't very clear.

--pedit. Agreed with math. It's not that the reads seem wrong, its that the reads are scummy because they don't really give away much. Mom is claimed mason and Math has been a proactive and vocal player in pushing the HW wagon so this feels like them playing it very safe

[Marky Mark]

Goodnight all, catch up with you lovely people tomorrow

[Marky Mark]

Morning all

@Math are you going to share with us what it was you got out of your random infinity vote?

[Marky Mark]

As toog has already pointed out (incidentally ++TR to toog for that), its a little unnerving to see math line up elims to tomorrow in the event that we miselim. Idk how meta that is for him tho

[Marky Mark]

This still feels like scum to me tho. Sending.
VOTE: Horsewoman

[Marky Mark]

Fun fact: as town I have mishammered town twice but never hammered scum. Hopefully this is about to change *crosses fingers*

[Marky Mark]

Oh fuck that looks bad for me lmfaoo, I'm a N1 vigilante. I am not sure where the hell the mofia kill went. I would have assumed the scum was within Momrangal, Toogeloo, DGB so I shot within the trio. If it helps I also softed vigilante with my vig talks yesterday.

So you still reckon Mom may be scum despite the mason claim?

[Marky Mark]

VOTE: Infinity

This feels like a good place to start. Of the 4 people that joined the Mom wagon after me, I am willing to bet one was scum and I don't think it was DGB tbqh.

[Marky Mark]

Also

FOS Math

for driving a wagon especially hard against what turned out to be a VT. I think a lot of us thought horse was scummy, but not with the massive levels of confidence that he had. As toog and I also pointed out D1, his late D1 posts setting out chain elims in the event that horse flipped town now look rather sus.

[Marky Mark]

Oh fuck that looks bad for me lmfaoo, I'm a N1 vigilante. I am not sure where the hell the mofia kill went. I would have assumed the scum was within Momrangal, Toogeloo, DGB so I shot within the trio. If it helps I also softed vigilante with my vig talks yesterday.

How would you be sure where the mafia kill went anyway?

Not sure atm - I was rather hoping Math would explain his weird random infinity vote last thing on D1 yesterday before he hopped back to HW

[Marky Mark]

What do you reckon Guillo? Who are your main SRs off the back of the HW and Toog flips?

[Marky Mark]

Oh lol, I quoted the wrong quote from Guillo - I meant to quote the one addressed to me asking if I thought Math/Infinity were W/W. It's reasonably clear from the content of my post that I wasn't answering the question addressed to JV tho as it wouldn't make any sense in that context

[Marky Mark]

And regarding your FoS I was wrong. I admit that. But now it’s time to hunt the deep wolves that caused the scenario. The odds were more likely she was scum and I take those odds every time in my spot.

That was not the tone you were using yesterday tho.

Like I could literally take my pick from your ISO but eg

Look at Math, feeling like a boss and scum hunting from a skim read, how adorables.

Got a problem with it? Take it up with my recent mason game where I was a mason and freaking outed the team and just didn’t push hard enough to get them. I will not make that mistake.

Horsewoman is scum.

Horse is almost certainly scum because of what I did before combined with how protown scum could look by elimming Horse if she was town. Scum not taking that means Horse is likely scum.

Your tone has now moved substantially from seeing her as "almost certainly scum" to "odds were more likely she was scum"

[Marky Mark]

Like tbqh I thought horse was scum too and that's why I pushed there earlier on D1 and then last thing when it became clear that a toog elim was not going to be feasible. I fully appreciate this makes me look somewhat sus now. It's the change in tone from you and especially the setting up potential chain-miselims late D1 that I found unnerving.

[Marky Mark]

Correct. The wagon was stalling and we needed an elim that was not a likely mason. The risk if I was wrong was relatively minor comparatively. The way the VCA fell made it much more likely she was scum and her play gave me scum vibes until the end where I got a town ping. I regret her flip but I don’t regret doing it.

I don't think eliming the claimed mason was ever a particularly likely cause of action.

[Marky Mark]

Like tbqh I thought horse was scum too and that's why I pushed there earlier on D1 and then last thing when it became clear that a toog elim was not going to be feasible. I fully appreciate this makes me look somewhat sus now. It's the change in tone from you and especially the setting up potential chain-miselims late D1 that I found unnerving.

I mean you’re more than welcome to try this approach but I think you’re gonna have egg on your face. It just becomes a matter of whether you’re derp town or scum here.

Are you threatening me lol?

[Marky Mark]

I was rather hoping Math would explain his weird random infinity vote last thing on D1 yesterday before he hopped back to HW

@Math - you were kind enough to point out that I had quoted the wrong point when asking this, but I would love to actually hear your answer

[Marky Mark]

DO literally take your pick from his ISO instead of shading it.

Not sure I quite follow. The general point I was making was that he posted throughout D1 expressing a very high level of certainty that horse was scum. Like, I could literally go through and make a quote wall but the point is it is more a general read across his posts rather than any one post in particular.

Not really sure how that is shading?

[Marky Mark]

@Math

Ref your vote on infin - that makes more sense now

Ref perceived threats - the whole "egg on your face" thing came off to me as suggesting that you were threatening me if I pushed you. Infin, JV and DGB can attest that DKKoba (scum) took a similar angle against me (town) in the recent Bending mini

[Marky Mark]

I'm not experienced enough with PR mechanics to know whether massclaiming would be useful here, but happy to go with the majority consensus

[Marky Mark]

I'm not experienced enough with PR mechanics to know whether massclaiming would be useful here, but happy to go with the majority consensus

This feels like ... “let's do the anti-town play but as long as I can have an excuse to do it”.

Bro that's like the shade of the century I played a couple of games in 2014 and then started playing again couple months ago due to pandemic-induced boredom. I literally have never been in a massclaim and have no ideas of the tactical considerations that go into whether one ought to be made.

On the other hand, we have a bunched of experienced players in the plist so I kinda thought I'd listen to them

[Marky Mark]

Who is scum pig?

[Marky Mark]

What is your case on me Math?

[Marky Mark]

A massclaim on day 2? That seems scummy.

Is that scummy?

For DGB no.
Anti town to explain
In general yes.

This. Massclaim feels like a bad idea in general, but what I'm not experienced enough to know is whether it is worth it in our particular circumstances.

--pedit coolio

[Marky Mark]

Ok, well DGB suggested the massclaim afaik, so I am sure she can articulate why it feels it is worthwhile and we can decide as a group based on what she has to say. I am TRing DGB moderately hard so am prepared to trust her to a reasonable extent

[Marky Mark]

Sorry for the slow response - was playing chess with a family member and it ended up going on waaaaaay to long

I'm VT

[Marky Mark]

Was town before, but stopped being towny towards the end of the day which worries me.

What was not Townie by the end of the day?

His aggression and sorting from earlier in the day turned into a very forgettable presence. It felt like he was saying stuff just to say it. The progression on horse, from thinking she said some towny stuff to going back to scumreading her didn’t feel particularly genuine. The response to flea’s case felt...not as flippant as I expected. The case was bad enough imo that I think most would be really frustrated by it as town and guillo instead seemed to give more validity to the case than it had.

You can have a reprieve today.

Got more examples?

Like a case?

who claimed vig? the masons are confirmed now and who are they?

Jackson claimed responsibility for the Toog kill.

Ohhhh. Ok so possibilities are
1) Jacko is scum
2) Jacko and scum double killed toog (Trust me this is possible. Last time I was vig, the scums and me killed the same person and that's why the doc on that person didn't work)
3) Jacko is vig and something happened to the scum kill

I think 3 is the most likely, and I think 1 is way more likely than 2. I don’t see why scum would shoot toog if not to semi-confirm a vig claim.

VOTE: guillo I’m gonna trust math here, but reluctantly. The last time I let a scumread go because of a soft they were scum.

Can we not do this? Scum already have more info than they should. I’m pretty sure math is town.

The early infinity vote today from Math followed by this interaction (ie initial distancing then collaborating to vote elsewhere) has solidfied my suspicion of an infinity/math scumpair. Of the two, I think infinity is more likely to be scum tho from their position on the mom wagon.

[Marky Mark]

who claimed vig? the masons are confirmed now and who are they?

Jackson claimed responsibility for the Toog kill.

Would be great to have some scrutiny/analysis/opinions from your slot Pig rather than just info on the game state as it would help us sort you

I know you said you are sus of DGB due to the claim thing - what other SRs/TRs do you have any why?

[Marky Mark]

Night all, it's been a pleasure as always and I'm looking forward to seeing how the whole claim shebang that Mom is running works out

[Marky Mark]

A day in the life of a European mafia player:
-Post content during the day. Get a mild amount of interaction with other players.
-Go to bed just as the western hemisphere is coming online.
-Wake up to find the rest of the player list have vomited another 17 pages while you've been asleep.

[Marky Mark]

Mom said you should say who should claim next and why

Sorry - I missed this yesterday. Fwiw, would probably have chosen a low-info slot like Pig to pin them down in a claim, as due to their lack of content they are probably a slot that is easier to sort mechanically than by the content of their posts and their interactions.

[Marky Mark]

On the subject of the massclaim, as I have said before I am happy to defer to players more experienced with PR mechanics (I also had to google PGO), but here are my two cents:

-Now that we are mid-massclaim, it doesn't seem that we yet have enough info to squeeze the scum out, but the scum now have info on us. It would make sense IMO to press on with this
--To this end, players like Pig refusing to claim is not helpful so have a policy vote VOTE: Pig
-Guillo seemed oddly against a massclaim eg 1825, although it is possible that they just weren't understanding the whole protective role claim as VT thing
-One thing that I think would be really helpful would be for the claimed PRs to tell us the name of their role in the flavour (eg for me, that would be Camper) as this might be another (weak) tool to gauge the legitimacy of their claim.

--pedit @JV noted, let me finish my catchup posts first

[Marky Mark]

A couple of other scummy things from overnight

Im pretty pissed. I thought I would ahve an easy game, but not now! I was hoping to get a scum at night but now I have to defend myself to town convincing them im town while scum DOESNT kill me. thanks.....

I find it hard to believe that Vax thought scum was more likely to target them than town PRs given that their predecessor was a top SR for much of D1, meaning town!them would be an easyish miselim target. As such, I am pretty sus of this slot

@Vax - why not insta-claim PGO D1 to avoid killing town PRs by accident as the wiki seems to suggest is optimal?

I agree on the Mark Infinity town part though to be fair.

This is quite the progression for the two slots you started the day voting to become TRs overnight. I get that reads are updated as the game progresses, but what prompted your sudden shift in position?

--pedit @Flea Funky Rabbithole? You've lost me. @JV yeah maybe. I don't think its gonna solve the game, but its all useful info, especially if they decide to claim something different to what they have fake claims for

[Marky Mark]

Fwiw, I don't appreciate being called dense by Math. It's a naked personal attack.

If you disagree with me or think I'm shading you then just logically explain why and let the plist decide. Don't be that guy.

[Marky Mark]

Other random thought - was weird that Math was doing his VCA based on the first VC of the game, which was still firmly in RVS territory. I'm not sure how much info of use that would provide compared to one mid-d1

[Marky Mark]

@JV in terms of reads we are in a weird place because we are mid-massclaim

The scummier
-I think there is a good chance Infinity is scum. As previously stated, I TR DGB reasonably strongly so if infin is not scum here then there were no scum on the wagon of a claimed mason which took off out of nowhere.
-Math I am less sure of. I am cool with them being town leader, but less cool with them SRing horse less and less as we neared the end of D1 while setting up slots to pre-emptively push D2 in the case of horse's death. There are strong accociatives here with infin IMO, so looking at infin first makes sense to me
-As just highlighted, Vax's assertion that they thought they would be more likely targetted by scum than town feels off and their predecessor was sus. That being said, I can't see the scum motivation for claiming PGO here other than to dissuade any investigatives.

The townier
-I think a mason fakeclaim from Mom would be risky AF so she is strong townead rn
-To a lesser extent, JV faking vig is possible (eg NK toog and then claim it was the vig) but feels unlikely and unecessary risky against a player (toog) that would be easy to miselim
-DGB strikes me as likely town here from her interactions with the Mom wagon D1 and the subsequent responses to the Mom claim. Will wait and see what her super secret info is today tho
-I can see Pig potensh being newbtown here. Their reads are very surface level (eg SRing DGB for suggesting the massclaim) but wrong != scummy. V weak TR.

The nullish
-I'm middling on Noraa. Their push on me D1 felt like it was, although mistaken, coming from the right motivations. They've not really posted any smoking guns that would mark them out as clearly scum or town IMO.
-Flea is a hard one to sort. I think them doubting the mason claim is somewhat sus, although their behaviours otherwise have been reasonably towny
-Guillo I was TRing reasonably yesterday, although a few times today, it has felt like they have stretched to make a point (I have largely called this out as I've seen it, but can dig it out if needed) which has eroded that TR. Would put them towards the scummy end of null

[Marky Mark]

Oh yeah I should clarify, if the mason claim isn't real then scum have made a stupid bold move and I'm flubbernucked.

As in you originally didn't think it was legit, but now do?

[Marky Mark]

@JV yeah maybe. I don't think its gonna solve the game, but its all useful info, especially if they decide to claim something different to what they have fake claims for

I mean I am usually all for any information that we can get but I don't think that's gonna get anywhere, trust in someone that actually has a PR role-card.

I mean I TR you, but as a claimed PR you do have a vested interest here, so I would still like to hear the flavour names of people's roles

[Marky Mark]

Oh yeah I should clarify, if the mason claim isn't real then scum have made a stupid bold move and I'm flubbernucked.

As in you originally didn't think it was legit, but now do?

As in if they're not masons, I'm flubbernucked

In plain english please?

[Marky Mark]

Infinity - Do you think that there's very little chance that scum was NOT on the masonry, I'll have to look back for VCA but in a vacuum I don't think that holds that much weight.
Math - Though I do agree they're playing like ass, they're highly likely Town but not in the position to be the Town leader. I will put in my resume for that position though.
Vax - I completely agree with this read, they're scummy as all heck but I don't think the claim comes from a scum mind-set but then again we don't have the information scum has, reason my vote is still on Noraa mainly.
Momrangal - Even though I am still suffering from brain hemorrhaging from the Bending game and that gambit, I don't think they're the type of player to do that so they're probably just Town (or a Traitor if one possibly exists).
JacksonVirgo - That's a me!
DGB - Awaiting super secret information which they should have posted ages ago imo.
Piggy - Do you think that surface level reads come from newb!town more than newb!scum? I would assume they would come from both as they have no experience finding anything deeper.
Noraa - They're fairly solid at scum-play, although under pressure they tend to break if I am recalling correctly. Take that as you will.
Flea - Honestly, I keep procrastinating on reading this slot because of how unorthodox their playstyle seems to be. I should probably get onto that ASAP
Guillo - I think Gills is straight up scum here, I read them and Math as a TvS and considering my recent revelation with Math Gills is probably scum. If I had to pick two partners it'd be Noraa/Vax in a Vacuum with no relation except being scum-reads.

Ref infin - the wagon change of speed from sitting on 2 votes to suddenly being at 5 and target subsequently claiming mason makes me think that there must be some scum involvement. If I was the scumteam I would definitely be getting a slice of that. Counter-question: do you think the Mom wagon was all town?
Ref Pig - a.) if they were scum, they would probs be being coached here b.) Yeah its only a slight newb town lean as basically there has been nothing to make me think that they are scum.

[Marky Mark]

so I would still like to hear the flavour names of people's roles

I can easily crush your dreams here if you want

In what sense? Sorry, I don't quite follow.

[Marky Mark]

And I was hard TRing DGB as the other mason lol. This was based on mom FOSing everyone on her wagon other than DGB and DGB's vote on mom looking like a low-risk distance (this is before 3 players then piled on top of it to take the wagon to E-2).

I'm guessing that one of the masons watched/rolecopped me or something last night

With all this in mind, Math is v likely town (2 scum claiming masons together would be v bold), so infin/vax are my top SRs right now but will keep the policy vote on pig until we've wrapped up the massclaim

[Marky Mark]

And I was hard TRing DGB as the other mason lol. This was based on mom FOSing everyone on her wagon other than DGB and DGB's vote on mom looking like a low-risk distance (this is before 3 players then piled on top of it to take the wagon to E-2).

I'm guessing that one of the masons watched/rolecopped me or something last night

With all this in mind, Math is v likely town (2 scum claiming masons together would be v bold), so infin/vax are my top SRs right now but will keep the policy vote on pig until we've wrapped up the massclaim

Lol I just said that a sec ago. XD

Vax I get infinity I don’t.

Explain Infinity to me.

I think there is a good chance Infinity is scum. As previously stated, I TR DGB reasonably strongly so if infin is not scum here then there were no scum on the wagon of a claimed mason which took off out of nowhere.

This is the primary factor. The mom wagon felt heavily to me like it had scum involvement and of the 3/4/5 slots, the other two are conftown by virtue of being dead. The TRing horse late D1 while not having any strong reads outside of DGB (again, who I was TRing) struck me as off too, but its mainly the wagon involvement against mom

[Marky Mark]

But I wanna vote tooooo

You can has vote I’ll stay off I will keep moon logicking.

Marky Mark why did you say ranger at the start of d1?

Oh lol, was just said at face value. Like I joined the game thinking that the town would be the bears and something like park rangers seemed like a reasonable flavour role name for the scum faction in that world

[Marky Mark]

What do you think of his 180 on math and him not wanting him to get into a 1v1 with Guillotina and pushed to claim

I'm not aware of infinity pushing Math? As to Guillo, they've been pushing the slot reasonably hard today, so I don't quite follow.

[Marky Mark]

At any rate, I think a claim from pig and working through that side of things first is probably a good logical step here

[Marky Mark]

So, just thinking this through for due diligence. What are the scenarios where pig could legit be a doctor?

-Scum killed toog last night and JV is either lying or just also targeted toog
-scum targeted Vax and also role blocked them to stop the pgo and pig protected them?!?
-scum submitted no kill last night
-there are multiple protectives

Like I'm genuinely struggling to imagine a gamestate that would work if pig is telling the truth. The first of the above is most plausible, but still seems like an odd nk choice

[Marky Mark]

I've thought about Jacko's claim and its actually really bad. Think about it ... there's no double kill and he's only one shot .....

what a big coincidence :/

But presumably risky to blind claim that if scum given the likelihood in this flavour of there being some sort of town vig who would cc

Would be good to see the rest of the claims tho so that we can try and see if the town pr stack looks balanced (please feel free to disagree if I'm missing something here)

--pedit yeah I think pig being scum is the most likely scenario hut clearly good to use the time we have to think it through

[Marky Mark]

I've thought about Jacko's claim and its actually really bad. Think about it ... there's no double kill and he's only one shot .....

what a big coincidence :/

But presumably risky to blind claim that if scum given the likelihood in this flavour of there being some sort of town vig who would cc

Would be good to see the rest of the claims tho so that we can try and see if the town pr stack looks balanced (please feel free to disagree if I'm missing something here)

--pedit yeah I think pig being scum is the most likely scenario hut clearly good to use the time we have to think it through

You’re missing something here.

Let’s get pig and sort the rest later

Missing something as in my logic is poor (entirely possible) or missing something as in secret PR stuff that would be anti town to reveal rn?

[Marky Mark]

I've thought about Jacko's claim and its actually really bad. Think about it ... there's no double kill and he's only one shot .....

what a big coincidence :/

But presumably risky to blind claim that if scum given the likelihood in this flavour of there being some sort of town vig who would cc

Would be good to see the rest of the claims tho so that we can try and see if the town pr stack looks balanced (please feel free to disagree if I'm missing something here)

--pedit yeah I think pig being scum is the most likely scenario hut clearly good to use the time we have to think it through

You’re missing something here.

Let’s get pig and sort the rest later

Missing something as in my logic is poor (entirely possible) or missing something as in secret PR stuff that would be anti town to reveal rn?

[Marky Mark]

I would TR pig less than DGB/JV anyway even aside from the doc claim and DGB's info on them so I'm cool with that.

I'm still racking my head to try and think through if DGB could be scum here framing pig. Eg, if DGB was scum roleblocker then they could idk block pig against the PGO (if that's even real). But then how do we explain the lack of NK??

Yeah, this is melting my brain somewhat, having not played a game before with such complex PR interactions (don't be fooled by my join date) but I'm cool with taking scum!pig as the likeliest explanation here

[Marky Mark]

Ok Pig so you reckon Vax is scum, as I understand it. Do you still think DGB is scum and/or what are your other reads?

[Marky Mark]

Ok so by guillo logic if math is scum here then mom is also scum as she is verifying him as her fellow mason. Is this what you think guillo, because I didn't really get the vibe from you yesterday that you thought mom was scum post-claim?

--pedit: I still think infin is an underrated choice for third scum alongside pig and vax if we are talking solves

[Marky Mark]

Hello everyone, I hope you all had a lovely Christmas

Let's see what the PR council has to say.

Does anyone know what a picnic basket giver does? Seems odd choice to NK over claimed roleblocker or mason+

[Marky Mark]

I'm not convinced we ever heard from Vax yesterday ref why they didn't claim D1 to avoid the risk to town PRs. That would be useful to hear from them

[Marky Mark]

I didn't think we had a protective? Or at least one we know about as the NK n1 was v likely blocked by DGB

[Marky Mark]

Ah right yeah, that makes sense

[Marky Mark]

Yep, I had forgotten about the whole flea targetting vax thing. I blame too many Christmas beers.

[Marky Mark]

There was a mass claim yesterday and the only thing we asked to be hidden was the protective. There is no tracker and watcher and scum know that. Why are you pushing this narrative

Pushing what narrative? Like are you trying to say here that I'm rolefishing for a doc? I thought infinity was saying that there was likely a doc, which I was just commenting on as that didn't seem like the general consensus, but in hindsight I misread their post. Perhaps I ought to read more lol. Sorry!

Nighty night you lovely people

[Marky Mark]

Hey all

Looks like the day started just after I went to bed last night and then was locked by the time I had woken up - see my previous wry comments about the mafiascum experience for European players

G's been stretching today, I'm not gonna lie.

As I understand it, Vax is either:
PGO -> means Flea died from visiting them -> means either G is scum or scum no-killed to frame G
Not PGO-> means scum killed Flea and Vax is 90% scum because why would town!vax lie about their role

I've still not heard back from Vax ref why they didn't claim D1 fwiw

--pedit lolwat from math. In this scenario either Vax or G is scum 90% so why look elsewhere?

[Marky Mark]

Jacko its 4 am :O
get some sleep!

Nah fam I start work at 4:30 am

Are you like a farmer or something? That's a pretty hardcore start time

[Marky Mark]

Like I guess you could have Vax as town PGO and scum no-kill to frame G (regardless of whether DGB is scum or not), but that seems somewhat sub-optimal for scum

--pedit @JV - nice!

[Marky Mark]

@Math - so you think Vax is legit Town PGO and G was framed by scum no-killing? That is the only train of thought I could see that would lead to voting Noraa here

--pedit OK, what other option

[Marky Mark]

I would favour a Vax elim here. If I was gonna vote outside Vax/G (which seems foolish to me when 1 of the 2 is scum in most realistic circs) I would probably look at infin ahead of Noraa

@Noraa - I guess if the masons have rolecop (which is what it sounds like) then checking a claimed VT is worthwhile in case you get a non-vanilla result

[Marky Mark]

I would vote Vax here, but its been 15 pages since a VC so I'm just gonna wait until there's another to avoid an inadvertant lolhammer

[Marky Mark]

Will be on later tonight but imminently about to order/eat curry, almost certainly followed by an extended curry-induced food coma

--pedit: thanks for the explanation. I will look at Vax and G's slots and weigh up which looks scummier. IMO, I could see either as scum here even outside of PR mechanics so I would be v reticent to vote outside of that pairing

[Marky Mark]

DGB is sus for roleblocking a claimed camper
Vax is sus for not claiming PGO before EoD1 and for bluffing about the mod mistake

There's been a lot of this sort of thing today and I'm just trying to get my head around whether G is stretching or just got the wrong end of the stick

If DGB was scum (and yeah, bussing Pig does make sense I guess) then they wouldn't necessarily have to be a roleblocker right? They could've just no killed and claimed the guilty

[Marky Mark]

I've been mulling this over.

I really want to hear Vax's explanation for not claiming D1 as per the wiki but I'm starting to swing round to thinking an elim on G could be the right call here. Scum not NKing either a mason+ or a RB here just seems v sub-optimal and while this could ofc be done to frame G, Ockham's razor would just suggest that most plausible COA was that he was taking the factional kill that night and was blocked

@All - Please come back at me on this -> this is the most complex game I have played in terms of PR interactions and setup speculation so I fully appreciate that my logic may not be watertight

[Marky Mark]

There has been a fair bit of flame and moral self-righteousness over the last couple of days, it must be said

[Marky Mark]

My exact theory is DGB is roleblock ing scum who bussed
Noraa is ninja
And if 4 scum to balance power G is second goon

How do you explain the single kill last night then, given the PGO? Are you thinking that scum no-killed here to frame G? Seems odd to turn down a free kill on a mason+ just to maaaaybe frame someone

[Marky Mark]

I mean voting DGB is the hero play here and it is absolutely possible that they bussed pig and are framing G.

The D2 PGO claim from Vax here does not sit well with me at all and is v scummy in isolation

But thinking about it, in terms of wider PR interactions, it seems v off that scum wouldn't bank a kill on a mason+, so VOTE: Guillo and let's go from there. If they flip scum then great. If they flip town then we can look at Vax and/or DGB (I appreciate I am doing a Math here by chaining slots)

I am probably ok with scum cross killing or no-killing here for shennanigans if it keeps our TPRs around for a sustained period to investigate more of the plist

--pedit @Math thanks for the explanation. I'm not protective, you know G isn't from your vanilla result and infin has claimed they are not, so fairly limited places any protective could be in, but would probs be worth claiming I guess IF AND ONLY IF we have intent to hammer G as it might provide another explanation for events that would mean we would need to re-evaluate

--pedit 2: If vax is town then scum submiting kill on flea is functionally the same as no-killing I guess

[Marky Mark]

If scum see that a townie has claimed PGO and town has told another townie to target the pgo, this is a good opportunity for them to get a double pr kill. why tf would they nk flea?

This. Even if they can manipulate the following day to frame someone from it, they are effectively giving the town an extra PR use

[Marky Mark]

Either Vax is SCUM and scum killed flea to make the PGO claim seem real.
Or Vax is town and scum kill didn't go thru(I don't believe scum ever no kill here) In this case Guillo is scum.

One of {guillo, vax} is scum. We should be limming in this pool today.

This isn't 100% true because if DGB scum then they could have lied about rbing guillo and the scum could've just submitted no-kill or cross-killed flea.

I agree that it seems a less-likely scenario, but not impossible

[Marky Mark]

I think if vax is town, something definitely happened to the nk. Either a secret protective, masons, or DGB.

If DGB is lying, then protective or masons.

Scum don't no kill here imo.

I agree it seems unlikely and sub-optimal, but it is still possible.

I think the optimal townplay here is vote in Vax/G and play this game at face value, at least in the short term. If scum want to turn down kills on PRs then we can have some free investigations, and get closer to a mechanical solve

[Marky Mark]

Then it would be Vax in that as G would be unlikely to do the kill.

Why would G be unlikely to do the kill? I've just checked DGB's ISO and she does not mention her intended target for last night anywhere

[Marky Mark]

PGO is a bit of a random fakeclaim for scum though I would have thought? Like you could so easily dig yourself a hole if people call your bluff (like here)

I'm gonna call it a night there, but if there is a clear consensus to lim vax over G then I will support that

[Marky Mark]

Morning all

Having some technical issues with my PC so gonna be phone posting until that's sorted.

Vax - please answer the question ref why you didn't claim D1, as per the wikis suggestion for optimal pgo play

Also @vax - why do you prefer Noraa here over g? If you're town then the only reason to elim Nora over g would be if the scum no-killed as a gambit. Is that what you think happened?

[Marky Mark]

I'm voting guill tho

[Marky Mark]

I don't especially mind a Vax elim, as they have done scummy stuff too, but I just think guill is more likely scum

[Marky Mark]

I'm voting guill tho

To clarify, I have already voted G, it is just not in the vote count for some reason

b/c its 3am

[Marky Mark]

We probs also want to allow TPRs to plan night actions should they wish to, prior to anyone potential hammers

[Marky Mark]

1 seems a little less likely now that you put it like that.
2 is very possible if scum fakeclaimed expecting not to get caught
3 seems unlikely because you give up a kill against two investigative TPRs
4 seems unlikely but if there is one then they can claim if and only if them claiming affects the calculus of who to elim
5/6 are both possible, but again mean scum giving TPRs more actions due to not killing them, which risks a mechanical solve for town

My gut is saying that guillo is scum here and that that is the simplest explanation, but the more I think about things as you have out them across, I can see that DGB RB ing the killing scum twice in a row might not be as likely as I initially thought

[Marky Mark]

Vax - please answer the question ref why you didn't claim D1, as per the wikis suggestion for optimal pgo play

Also @vax - why do you prefer Noraa here over g? If you're town then the only reason to elim Nora over g would be if the scum no-killed as a gambit. Is that what you think happened?

While you're here Vax, would you mind answering these?

[Marky Mark]

I don't think scum no killed, but can't guil and Nora be scum? If so I'd rather have Nora since guil wants to die.

I don't follow - in the scenario you are describing (you are town and scum didn't no-kill (or x-kill flea) then guill is confscum unless we have a secret protective. I find it hard to believe that you think noraa is a better elim choice in that world

[Marky Mark]

Yeah today we lim inside {Guillo, Vax}

The masons are simply wrong. there's a 90% possibility this pool has scum and 10% that it doesn't. I doubt it is the 10%.

After seeing Jacko's very blunt description of events, I think DGB's scum equity does go a bit higher than I originally thought. Thats about the only thing I agree with the masons on.

This.

[Marky Mark]

Also i gotta say if we dont win this game against scum, we suck.

They failed a kill on night 1, they chose to kill a fruit vendor on N2. Like a competent scum team will always try to kill the masons here specially if they claim mason+. I wanna see at the end of the game who the scum is, to offer them my coaching services but not before inquiring about their experience in the game, because they either really suck at wolfing or the masons are the actual wolves.

I've never seen the claimed PRs surviving this long after hardclaiming early game, not in a 13 players set up where most likely there is only one protective. Scum, what the hell are you doing? Are you always this bad?
Im not complaining, keep sucking at wolfing!

On phone but going over last few pages, I think this is an egopost from scum! guillo

More later if I can get my desktop working to save my thumbs

[Marky Mark]

I mean if math is telling me that Vax is mechanically scum based on PR stuff then obvs I'll vote there, but still slightly confused on that one

[Marky Mark]

So Vax getting the picnic basket description correct just means that flea actually visited them (which we kinda knew anyway as flea was a TPR so had no reason to lie in saying they planned to visit Vax). The whole thing isn't particularly AI

Guillo I think you're hammered mate, so you probably can't self hammer

[Marky Mark]

Me, Infin, Ranger Duo, Noraa is the majority

[Marky Mark]

If you're actually town here G and we've just miselimed you then at least give us your solve. Masons being W/W seems unlikely as would be risky af to claim that d1 and risk the cc. Plus, if they are scum then we literally have a fruit vendor, PGO and RB as TPRs, which is possible I guess but seems on the weaker side

[Marky Mark]

Masons/DGB get your night actions sorted out (should you wish to collaborate) before the mod locks the thread

[Marky Mark]

Guillo if you change sites people are gonna play the game differently idk wtf you expected

I expected the site to play Mafia. The yeet and the night kill is guaranteed, unless otherwise stated.

stop arguing over some useless shit. there's no point.

Noraa, we are just on the same page today :3

I mean I would have probs phrased it slightly more politely, but I agree with the sentiment

[Marky Mark]

If you're actually town here G and we've just miselimed you then at least give us your solve. Masons being W/W seems unlikely as would be risky af to claim that d1 and risk the cc. Plus, if they are scum then we literally have a fruit vendor, PGO and RB as TPRs, which is possible I guess but seems on the weaker side

If Math/Mom are not scum.

Then Noraa/Vax and/or DGB are

Noted, thanks. If you flip green then I'm sorry as I was probably the most responsible for your elim for pushing the momentum your way when vax was at E-1. If you're scum and just lying it twilight for LOLs then idk, thanks for playing

--pedit yep, will wait for the flip to be sure but sorry if I was wrong about you. No idea what FSP is?

[Marky Mark]

Noraa, you know it's all in character. I do think you are scum though.

well if ur town, this was disappointing as hell.

Noraa reaction here feels somewhat similar to her reactions at daystart. Potential LAMIST, but haven't played with her before so no idea how in character it is for her.

[Marky Mark]

We should get at least 2/3 claimed TPR night actions tonight (assuming scum manage to nail one) so ought to have a decent amount more info to go off, beyond G's flip

[Marky Mark]

We should get at least 2/3 claimed TPR night actions tonight (assuming scum manage to nail one) so ought to have a decent amount more info to go off, beyond G's flip

no. we do not tell them what to do. but we can suggest and they do what they choose. we can't let scum know all of the actions exactly.

I didn't suggest any actions?? Was just remarking we will have more info going into tomorrow. This feels like LAMIST as I hadn't actually tried to tell TPRs what to do (and wouldn't)

[Marky Mark]

I mean technically it's a phrase, but when you try and 'help' by telling me not to do something that I wasn't doing, then it feels appropriate

[Marky Mark]

I mean technically it's a phrase, but when you try and 'help' by telling me not to do something that I wasn't doing, then it feels appropriate

no...

I mean if you disagree, you are welcome to explain why you thought I was telling the TPRs what/who to target and actually refute me

[Marky Mark]

No, Vax is a proven PGO regardless of alignment

How is this true? We know that they received the basket, but scum could just've NKed flea N2 to make it look lile Vax is PGO, if Vax is scum.

[Marky Mark]

Just posting stuff as I catch up, so some of this may already be answered

[Marky Mark]

@everyone

, when you see this post. Quote it and full-claim with any results you have regardless of previous plans as we're either in LYLO or we're going into a LYLO after tonight and I would like to treat this as LYLO for safety. Also write a tier-list for reads and a brief description about why that read is the case whether that be mechanical, gut or anything. Scum usually have weak ass reasonings where Town wouldn't.

Let me reiterate.

If there is a protective, DGB is likely counterclaimed by your role and thus forcing the 1v1 in a likely LYLO or the day before LYLO is the pro-town move.

@Momrangal

, I want to clarify what Math's results were as they have multiple abilities. Or did they still get two vanilla results on Mark and Guillotina?

@Vaxkiller

, explain how exactly your role works. EXACTLY, but do not copy+paste (or fake one if you're scum) as that's not allowed. If you are Town and if this is LYLO you are putting us in a very very bad position.

@Noraa, @Infinity

, what's your current reads on the other. I am asking this for a reason, but I cannot say until you both answer (and if I remember).

@Mark

, is there a reason that you've become non-existant in this game where in other Town games you're one of the most active?

@DGB

, can you explain why you roleblocked who you did the previous two nights and also claim if you have at least one roleblock remaining.

Let's have a stab at this

I'm straight-up VT (best role in the game IMO as 0 pressure)
I have been less active mainly due to the Christmas break, which I am spending with the family. I thought this would mean that I had way more time to be active on here, but the reality is that we have been doing a lot of stuff together IRL. Sorry! It also doesn't help that most of the posting and interactions seem to take place overnight for me, due to that being evening in the US.

I totally get people SRing me here based on my play this game, but would like to hear from people who are as to why so that I can have a stab at sorting them between town and opportunistic scum.

We've not heard back from DGB ref who they blocked last night have we? That would certainly help with a solve. I hadn't considered the setup spec angle of sorting DGB's slot, so will mull over that, but I can deffo see the guilty on pig as being a potential bus (seems like good scumplay imo).

One thing that crossed my mind last night is that if DGB is scum then there was no blocked kill N1 so potentially JV could be scum too and using the vig thing as a gambit (ie kill Toog N1 with factional kill and claim it was a vig shot).

Noraa is my top TR atm - I just feel like we've been thinking along similar lines for much of the game so far. I can see Vax being scum here based on llama's play and the late PGO claim. Tbh I honestly thought the solve was Infin/Guillo, but now having to revealuate my life after Guillo flipped town and infinity got a negative on the motion detector last night. Will wait and see what DGB has to say about their result, but am v likely going to vote within Vax/DGB today.

[Marky Mark]

Apparently mod spewed them PGO by "not sending them the fruit vend" which is unconfirmed so not really.

Ah right, yeah I suppose that's evidence in their favour of being PGO, but not 100% proof. Scum PGO clearly has motives to delay claiming, whereas town PGO's motives are shakier.

[Marky Mark]

DGB/JV scumteam is the hero play here. Vax/{One of Infin/Noraa[/ and me fypov]} is probably the higher % play for town

[Marky Mark]

AN ELIMINATION HAS OCCURRED!

Votecount 1.13

bad bear pun count

: 5

[7]Horsewoman:

JacksonVirgo, Momrangal, Toogeloo, DrippingGoofball, Guillotina, Mathblade, Marky Mark

[2]Toogeloo:

GamblingPig, Horsewoman

[2]DrippingGoofball:

Infinity 324, Noraa

[1]Noraa:

Vaxkiller

[1]GamblingPig:

Flea the Magician

[0] Not Voting:

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

The elimination deadline is in (expired on 2020-12-22 12:35:35).

Votecount 2.6

[6]AGamblingPig:

Flea the Magician, Marky Mark, Infinity 32, Momrangal, JacksonVirgo, DrippingGoofball

[2]Vaxkiller:

Guillotina, AGamblingPig

[1]Noraa:

Vaxkiller

[2] Not Voting:

Noraa, Mathblade

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

The elimination deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-01 11:36:20).

Votecount 3.4

[5]Guillotina:

Marky Mark, Infinity 324, Mathblade, Momrangal, Noraa

[2]Vaxkiller:

JacksonVirgo, Guillotina

[2] Not Voting:

DrippingGoofball, Vaxkiller

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

The elimination deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-05 17:18:22).

Was going over the final votecounts from each day to see if they would shed any light - here are them all together as an easy quick ref