Newbie 2057: Mars! - End!

[skitter30]

pooky >:(

@ffery i'm vla on fridays/saturdays!
and i love your flavor :)

[skitter30]

how serious are you being abt this?

also: townpings on samco

[skitter30]

also: heya wheme, it's been a while

[skitter30]

aw thank you :)

i do want to know how far you were gonna go with that tho

[skitter30]

i know that! :)

i want to know if i didn't show up shortly would you have actually pushed me to a lim!
(and i think you probably know where i'm going with this .... and had to have known where i'd be going with this ...)

hello kazyan, nice to meet you :)

pedit also townpings on kazyan

[skitter30]

pooky it makes me a wee bit worried that you're a scum-magical-bear who wanted to see if he could quicklim me before i showed up

also: that's been posted already by ffery!

also: the poster in 5 - i had another poster in that series of posters as my phone wallpaper for several years :)

[skitter30]

pooky it makes me a wee bit worried that you're a scum-magical-bear who wanted to see if he could quicklim me before i showed up

I'm not getting any scum pings off Pooky, for what it's worth.

I vaguely doubt that SAMCRO is scum playing dumb, either; it would be bold to do that.

it's a pooky specific read tbf
i'm not convinced it *makes* him scum per se but like i am a little paranoid that scum-him might try to do that

(we've played a lot of games together before)

[skitter30]

i think you're town!

[skitter30]

Creative you're talking abt wheme's vote on pooky?

[skitter30]

Creative you're talking abt wheme's vote on pooky?

Yeah voting each other, unless is a play, but I don't think mafia would push each other so early, wheme has switched votes a bit which seems like a meme/joke voting pattern which is common for the start of day 1 but them voting each other sort of tells me they're unlikely to be w/w

Thanks - i see where you're coming with this. My thought tho is that its still fairly early on day1, and neither of their votes on each other are particularly likely to quickly end up as a flip at this stage, so i'm not sure if those votes should be clearing

Have you played forum mafia before? Or only irl?

[skitter30]

ya i kinda got the vibe that you were used to much shorter phases than we have here :)

i would also like to declare a tr on creativename!

[skitter30]

heya kazyan, what do you think of me townreading creativename?

[skitter30]

* she

Ok, can you point to an interaction that feels forced?

And why do you think i'm pocketing creative (i.e. vs just stating a townread on him)?

~

@kazyen wasnt particularly worried that you may have thought i was partnered with creative - it was more that if someone votes someone just after someone else said they townreaf them, i'd usually expect some kind of 'i disagree with the townread cuz xyz' and was wondering what you thought of it

(I think i wrote that confusingly, if you dont get what i'm saying lmk and i'll try to reword)

[skitter30]

Pooky >:(

[skitter30]

I'm like ~90% sure you never have tho lol
I dont think i ever rolled scum against you, unless i'm forgetting something

[skitter30]

Skitter do you have a lot of experience with pooky?

This play from him currently seems fake and sounds like he’s trying to put on a front for no reason.

Unless he does this type of thing every game then that would change my mind.

i have a lot of experience with him (usually tvt, once or twice him s i think, i don't htink i've ever been s)
this is the first time he's done this sort of thing, it's making a little worried he's trying to like ~broadly discredit~ me, esp as he's still doing it (and not much else)

~
i think all of wheme/creative/kazyan are town

don't have enuf on t3 yet

i'm not sure what to do abt pooky

i don't think the other people have posted yet

other than pooky wouldn't be surprised if all the scumz were in the people who haven't posted yet tbh

[skitter30]

this is the first time he's done this sort of thing, it's making a little worried he's trying to like ~broadly discredit~ me, esp as he's still doing it (and not much else)

I am not broadly discrediting you :<

ok, sure, what are you doing then?

[skitter30]

Those jpl posters <3 <3 <3

[skitter30]

ok, sure, what are you doing then?

playful flirting :]

:)

more seriously tho: do u have any reads at this point?

[skitter30]

Townpings on griff as well

So far i dont really have scumreads but i have a fair number od townreads i like :)

[skitter30]

I can see why samcro is sus of creative and i kinda like the tone of 144 but all in all i'm not getting as many townvibes from them thus far as i have from some of the others

Pedit alas you missed the pagetop ffery

[skitter30]

Also: the claiming vt thing from samcro feels a bit contrived

I liked t3's analysis of the vt claim/pooky's reaction to it above, actually

Also: lets try not to claim too early, we dont want to give scum hints for where our prs are

[skitter30]

Townpings on griff as well

So far i dont really have scumreads but i have a fair number od townreads i like :)

If I may, what is a townpings on me?

Townpings is maybe a term that isnt in super common use, so i probably should have clarified, sorry

By thay i meant: your early posting struck me as town in a perhaps gut/unquantifiable way, and it isnt a super stronf read yet, but i wanted to note that i had that thought on your posts

[skitter30]

so you think he is scum? haha? i should vote him then and when he is town we can get you next creative

This also feels a bit fake

I think this is a decent starting vote for now:

VOTE: samcro

[skitter30]

Oh wait false alarm E-2 not E-1

I was scared there

Sorry if I am annoying you guys with questions but what is e-1 and e-2?

E1 is one vote to hammer (i.e. if 5 votes are needed to hammer and there are already 4)

E2 is two votes to hammer (i.e. if 5 votes needed to hammer there are already 3)

Usually, we encourage

giving intent

when someone is at e1 before you place the last vote on them, so that they have time to claim before hammer and everyone can say their last thoughts before the day ends

People tend to give announcements that its e1/e2 to make people aware that its close to hammer as a courtesy

I would appreciate if we kept pooky at e2 or below so that we dont approach hammer just yet, the day is still kinda early

[skitter30]

the scums are creative and skitter possibly. skitter is defending his scum friend very hard here and trying to make it seem like she isnt

Why am i partner defending him and not just someone who townreads him?

Pedit lets try not to call out mason vibes, it gives scum hints for where the prs are

[skitter30]

Can someone unvote please?

[skitter30]

Sigh that's hammer i think :/

[skitter30]

<3 pooky sorry

Look closely at the eod votes tom, i die here a lot od the time

[skitter30]

Can someone unvote please?

you wanted this skitter

I'm not sure how you can possibly come to that conclusion

Samcro / t3 has at least one scum i would guess
Probably samcro

[skitter30]

hehe it's fine <3

I just wanted to flirt some more :3

<3 :)

[skitter30]

PookyTheMagicalBear (3): WhemeStar, CreativeName, GriffNotGraph

+ samcro + t3

I think samcro is prob scum?

Roughly like samcro > t3 > griff > wheme > creative in order of scumminess (p7 caveat etc)

[skitter30]

Lets focus on samcro and hiw this wagon unfolded tomorrow please

Pedit ok
I'm not entirely sure why you think that or why you're ascribing the 'fault' of the wagon to me

[skitter30]

Eh he can but it doesnt really matter, he's dead anyways
Vt tho?

[skitter30]

Fwiw i kinda believe t3 and think his vote/hammer was accidental

[skitter30]

Ok so like ... this is why we announce e1 usually

Samcro can you walk me through why you voted pooky again?

VOTE: samcro

[skitter30]

Like I know that's weak, but I looked at the hammer order and the only question is "was SAMCRO being genuine in putting Pooky at E-1", and the answer is "I don't know", so I've learned nothing even though that's the Pooky hammer episode is the biggest piece of information about where scum is in this game. I mean I guess T3 is confirmed now, so I could take a look at that again? I don't actually know anything about wagonomics and the only things I've learned how to do are to get salty at posts and look through ISOs, which, spoiler alert, hasn't worked in any of my games so far.

How do you analyze a wagon?

By analyzing a wagon, we try to look at the motivations someone may have had for joining it, and try to determine if said motivations are more likely to come from town or scum

We know t3 flipped town, so if we're looking for potentjal scum on the wagon, we have to look at the remaining living slots

[skitter30]

creative is pretty much confirmed and skitter tryna act like she would be killed for no reason is also sus. btw, can we afford to miselim today?

Hmmm?

[skitter30]

heya, sorry for my absence, was vla on friday/sat and today i was mentoring a hackathon
but i'm back now :)

This is good, actually. It means that if we flip Creative and he's scum, then we have two almost-confirmed townies.

i'm not sure i agree with this conclusion.

[skitter30]

Skitter is your only scumread Samcro?

I think samcro is obv town and I don't think scum does what he did there.

yeah. his tone is awful and i have a hard time seeing the way he approached yesterday to be townie

[skitter30]

the bravado feels really, really fake to me

[skitter30]

I assume 1 of 4 things is

T3 Roleblocked the other power role - if this is the case don't claim
Tracker got no incriminating result or neighbour didn't send a message
Friendly neighbour targeted an inactive or the tracker is inactive
We only had the one power

All of these make sense with no claim

Again only claim if you're the tracker with an incriminating result, only claim who is friendly neighbour if it will help decide a lynch candidate/stop a town being lynched. don't claim if roleblocked

we really shouldn't be talking abt this rn

[skitter30]

You're the SE, I suppose.

@Skitter

, when you get back from V/LA: Does newbscum charge forth with accusations like this?

who are you talking abt? samcro? i think it's scummy, yeah

[skitter30]

i think megan has viable scum equity too

[skitter30]

also from my pov i dont' think that's a kill wheme makes so think the scumteam is all newbies

[skitter30]

the one 'confirm' post felt scummy to me
idk it's possible she's flaked but like feels like scum-lurking almost

entirely a tone/gut thing idk

[skitter30]

@ffery can we get prods on megan and griff plz? neither have posted yet today

[skitter30]

i don't really have a good explanation for why i don't like megan here, it's literally gut basically

[skitter30]

well i wouldn't say 'trying' but poe is part of it

[skitter30]

ahhhhhh i didn't realize you had weekend rules for prods, sorry
(you're super on top of things, should have realized there was a reason :) )

[skitter30]

uh you're equating a gutping with a scumread?
and can you explain why you're so confident ...

[skitter30]

i mean she posted once and i said it wasn't rational and a gutping
are you usually this confident? cuz no offense the confidence reads kinda fake

[skitter30]

that's literally what you did yesterday tho and i think the consensus is that that didn't work out ...

[skitter30]

eh maybe that is lowkey townie

[skitter30]

True, but at this point they probably wont

[skitter30]

Ffery will start looking for replacements when the prod timer runs out (24 hours after her post announcing the prods) if they dont post before then

I was planning on asking for an extention if she did have to ask for replacements, as we're kinda wiling away the day waiting for those slots to post and play

[skitter30]

honestly the stalling makes me think some of the lurkers are scum too

[skitter30]

Yes. But i would prefer to hear from the empty slots first. If nobody fills them after a day SE's will be able to take the slots and at that point they usually get filled p fast. I'm sure ffery will be reasonable i.e. deadline and such until we get this all sorted out

But given how dead the game is i kinda think scum is in the empty slots

[skitter30]

Yay excited to have you! Luckily the game thus far is p short!

[skitter30]

Oooh ok
Will respond after work/later tonight

[skitter30]

guys i'll be here shortly but 2055 is still ongoing and it's very, very, very illegal to talk about it since the game isn't over yet

[skitter30]

i want to respond to a few select notes, and then comment on the scumread as a whole:

Spoiler:

#27 this mildly leans scum to me. I don’t like when people ask questions that seemingly serve no purpose to finding scum, especially if it is an SE doing it. #34 implies that skitter was going to use clearly NAI memeing / or the fear votes of a now confirmed townie as a way to alignment read them, which I think leans scummy. If someone does that to me I disregard it as meaningless and look for other clues. #43 So skitter implies she SRs pooky for literal jokes - this looks very bad in hindsight knowing that pooky is town. On my initial skim pooky did not seem that townie, but SRing for RVS memeing doesn’t feel good to me

- i dislike how you're handwaving away the question in 27 as a 'question that seemingly serve

no purpose to finding scum' as i *was* using that question to try to get pooky to engage with me in a more 'real' way and thus try to determine if he's scum

- similarly, i have a long and storied history of playign with pooky, and i disagree that the meme-ing was nai, and although he did actually flip town here i can very easily taking a similar tactic as scum

- if you agree that he didn't look that townie thus far i don't fully understand the reasons you dislike me questioning his alignment there

~

#52 maybe there is context here then that I am missing. #53 / #54 I think my bias towards skitter being scum makes me feel better about kazayn being townie if skitter is mafia i feel like kazayan is probably a town from that early TR. Idk if skitter is a player who would defend their mafia.

there is a lot of context that your'e missing, yes

~

#83 T3 SR skitter - this is super townie move from our dead jail keeper jumping into the game with a SR Actually this makes me feel really good about SRing skitter given T3 will later die as the night kill and I didn’t see any PR softs on my skim. I think in the average game SEs would die before a newbie lie T3 so it makes me think skitter is scummy.

i mean, possibly, i hadn't particularly noticed any jk vibes from t3 either. i do agree it's an odd kill, and i'm not sure why ti was made.
from my pov at least i dont' think it's an indictment on the se's since i know i'm town and i'm p sure wheme is as well (and i'm not sure wheme kills t3 there either)

~

#109 I don’t mind skitter’s conclusions that they come to here in 109. But a Note - I don’t think that Skitter ever really makes a conclusion off of asking spooky how far he was going to take a meme vote. Just some very light vague implied scum read then drops it. Actually she says that she took that as an effort “broadly discredit” her - which is a major stretch it was literally a meme.

again, you're missing context on how pooky plays and my relationship with him, and in that context, my fear of being discredited makes a lot more sense. and you're right, it never developed into a full-on scumread, but that's because even tho i was suspicious of it, *i knew it could come from town anyways*, and that it wasn't worth pushing him over at that early time

~

She had also asked kazyan what they thought of her TR on creative and I don’t see a conclusion to the questioning. I don’t like when people ask questions that don’t serve a clear purpose - it feels scummy to me. Also T3 feels like super obvious town to me at this point even before I saw the flip and skitter has them null.

- the conclusion is like literally on the next page iirc
- just because the reason for the question isn't in the very post doesn't mean it doesn't have a clear purpose, sometimes being circuitous can yield more results than just straight-out asking questions

~

“other than pooky wouldn't be surprised if all the scumz were in the people who haven't posted yet tbh” - this actually pings me as a very scummy statement. Because A) my slot (grif) hasn’t spoken yet and I know I’m town and B) I feel like the other afk slot (meagen) could be town because the mafia where able to do a night kill. Maybe I don’t understand the mechanics of mafia night kills but the site I’m from kills can’t even go through unless both mafias vote. So this to me feels like Skitter pushing afk players which feels very scummy because its a way of gaining the players who will actually votes trust and its a little hard to believe coming from a town because how can you know afk players are scummy? Idk maybe I’m playing into my confirmation bias at this point.

- you're using information that we didn't have yet (i.e. the fact that the nk went through) to claim tha tmy conclusion is bad
- it wasn't a read on either player per se at that time, but ratehr the vibe that i was getting from the game as a whole - i wasn't really scumreading anyone who was posting, so scum are probably not in the people who are posting (and therefore might be lurkers)
- yes it reads like confirmation bias at this point

~

#183 this reads scum to me too. Skitter had been light scum pushing pooky all day and now is apologizing as if he is guaranteed to flip town? Idk man maybe I am an idiot. And seeing skitter’s EOD reads they have samcro (i think town) > t3 (confirmed town) > griff (I am town) > wheme > creative (i feel scummier than the other players). These reads just feel wrong. Actually skitter left kazayan off idk what that indicates.

right, cuz my feeling on the slot can't change upon them making more posts? it's p apparent once the hammer happened that he was town
and i was listing people on the wagon and how likely i thought they were to be town/scum

~

#276 Skitter feels like an experienced player trying to gaslight a noob who is playing obvious town and has correctly scum read her here.

ok you're going to need to explain where i'm 'gaslighting' someone because that's not how i play and i think that's an unfounded accusation

[skitter30]

pom can you give like a 3 sentence summary of what you think my scumgame looks like please?

[skitter30]

actually i just want to hold off on responding to his scumread on me till he answers that, i'm going somewhere with this ^

[skitter30]

So I think I’ve really worked myself into a skitter SR. I think her light scumming pooky for NAI stuff then apologizing after he got voted after not defending him at all is scummy. Her asking questions I don’t think really advanced the game state in any way was scummy. I think her pushing on SAMCRO feels like awkward gas lighting SE pushing an obvious town noob player who has correctly sorted her. I think her living over T3 who had SR skitter and TR samcro and then just continuing to blindly tunnel samcro is scummy. Her expressing some second thoughts about samcro scum is the townies thing she’s done so far, but maybe this is just trying to dig herself out of samcro’s tunnel. Her sussing meagan for no reason maybe is a little bit townie, but could be scum trying to TR the present players who will actually vote to avoid being suspected. This is who I would vote today at this point in the game. 

I feel like Creative has been scummy at points in this game for high post volume to low post content ratio and stating obvious info to seem like he is helping town, but his reactions to being sussed so hard by SAMCRO feel more genuine and make me wonder if he can be town. Also he doesn’t seem like a great scum partner for skitter since skitter openly TR him to open the game although admittedly I don’t know if thats the kind of thing skitter would do. So I put him null.

i think i addressed most of these posts in the spoilered wall - and again i really do want you to explain exactly how and where i'm gaslighting anybody, because i think that that is a very inaccurate way to describe my approach

[skitter30]

When I'm mafia I love to just snipe a guy who sussed me on d1 and barely anyone reviews logs the way I do and everyone just forgets and continues their current tunnels. T3 didn't do anything close to softing PR and he died over the SEs? And Skitter is just TRing their fellow SE in that situation? When I wake up in the AM with a good player at my side my first impulse is "why the hell are you alive?" Seems like a pocket to me.

- you're kinda indicating you think i have a strong scumgame. i don't just 'snipe a guy who sussed me d1' that way, esp. since (if T3 were vt) i nearly always win a fight against him, you're kinda ascribing a very naive/level-1 reason to the nk while also saying i have a strong scumgame, which don't really add up
- idk why he died, i don't have an explanation for it. i think in a vaccuum me or wheme die most of the time. but i'm town and i townread wheme and i never make that kill and i dont' think wheme does either so :shrug:

[skitter30]

I have seen one of her recent games as scum and she seemed to act different, less serious and more layed back, it's less likely skitter is scum, I feel strongly that it's samcro since pooky did call him out as being "mafia or misguided" and I think samcro is a strong player and not misguided, and sam is pushing skitter hard too, it's unlikely it's a bus so in my eyes samcro is scum and spewed skitter town

If you look samcro was sussing me and skitter when we were not sussing him after he did a full 180 on pooky

If not voting Samcro, wheme is acting unlike an SE or feels like he is trying to draw out a day where town is doing nothing

ok this is also illegal to talk about due to ongoing games, just to be clear

[skitter30]

Your towncase on SAMCRO is illuminating, specifically the townslip implication in #213

213 is not a townslip and i'm not sure why it's being read that way

[skitter30]

Pooky's dying words were that SAMCRO is probably mafia and somehow seeds in their backreading has skimmed over that

yeah just noting that it's fairly interesting that he's giving T3's reads such weight cuz he's flipped town, but isn't really doing hte same with pooky's

[skitter30]

I'm just pretty sure SAMCRO, Wheme, Kazyan are town, Wheme being the weakest TR in there, but after #231, I decided to declare Wheme a TR, I see no reason for scum!WhemeStar to go "I think samcro is obv town and I don't think scum does what he did there." I feel like scum would go right along with Sam being maf.

Skitter would probably be one of my strongest SRs here, and it just so happens that Skitter also called my slot scum off of no lines (technically there was 1, but I don't count it) Like, this is a town slot, I'd bet Megan was just overwhelmed or busy, so skitter, I'd love to hear some more on why I'm scum.

again, to clarify, it was gut + townreading most of the active players
fwiw my gut on your posting thus far is town

[skitter30]

Newbie 2055

I have just joined this game I do not have the same sense of time that you do, I've not really been paying attention to what day certain things happen. It seems like a townslip to me because if you were mafia submitting your night kill to kill someone how would you have forgotten the game was going on? You literally had to have done your night action just a little bit prior. I admit I have not looked at time stamps in my reasoning. But if the night kill was completed on 3/5 and samcro's first response to the day phase starting is "I forgot about this game" he's either a mafia intentionally trying to pretend he didn't just do a night action or he is a simply a town who forgot about the game because he's actually VT as he claimd frame 1 and did not have a night action. I assume the night action took place over the course of 3/2-3/5 according to time stamps its understandable a VT may forget about the game. It's not a 100% townnslip but I think it's more likely it was a VT forgetting the game was happening during night phase than a malicious mafia lying about doing a night action to hopefully gain town credit - which is nigh impossible for a mafia to predict I am going to join the game and point that out.

i'm not sure why you're not really taking into account hte possibility that ... he's just lying about forgetting about the game?

[skitter30]

You're calling Skitter, "Skimmer" and Pooky, "Spooky". It gets confusing on what you mean, it may also show a lack of interest as you apparently read everything so how would you not notice two actives names and end up keep spelling them wrong, did you not notice everyone is referring tho them by different names to what you are?

nah it's probably just autocorrect

[skitter30]

ok yeah that's what i figured you would say

sooooooo in the newbie queue there's this thing that happens where newbie scum get a particular vibe of my scumgame (either via my sig or via an SE partner, in this game the former) and decide to hype me up as a big bad scary scumplayer with a super strong scumgame and a lot of their case ultimately rides on the fact that i'm very good at scum, people should be afraid of my scumgame, and/or the game points to experienced scum

(incidentally i *do* have a very strong scumgame but this particular pattern/hyping it up in this way seems to exclusively happen in the newbie queue, it's happened i think 3 other times now)

seeds is basically going that last route, by saying that the kill must point to experienced scum, which means me

see lookee here, the 1961 game is the first time it happened and i've seen it happen at least 3 other times iirc.
zenith basically spent lylo hyping up my scumgame and trying to get the other player to vote me because 'she's good at scum!' and basically hyping up my scumgame and trying to scare the other player into voting me

am just assuming they would be a very strong scum from their signature

, and imo strong scum tend to play similarly.

Subject: Newbie 1961 | Trees II | Over

Hmm... All of a sudden is lagging much less..

I suppose if I were forced to vote someone right now. Due to the events leading to Vork's death I'm most wary of skitter right now.

Plus that skitter signature keeps staring at me.. =\

i have no idea why it's a thing but it's happened a bunch and i've never seen it come from town so like VOTE: seeds

[skitter30]

As for the gaslighting statement maybe this is too strong a word but specifically #276 I believe it was it feels to me that SAMCRO is spewing town here and your response is along the lines of "well no one is going to listen to you" instead of getting townpings from his statement. Although I admit later on at some point you do eventually say well maybe that was townie. The "well no one is listening to you" is probably mean to call gaslighting, but it feels like an experienced player bullying on a new player who has them sorted because they don't have anything else to say.

yes, i agree that gaslighting is too strong a word, and i don't think i was bullying him either

[skitter30]

So you are going to just double down on omgussing me rather than considering other scum or even explain why you SR sam? This doesn't seem very townie behavior from you to be honest. I am going to tell you for certain that if I am voted I will flip town, and if things continue on present course I will ask town to vote you blindly 100% in lylo. So I hope if this is the route you wish to go down that you are willing to lose the game for town with this omgus.

I have no idea about your past games but I am not pushing you in lylo - I am pushing you here in final 7 with one more elimination. If I am scum and you are town, I would obviously attempt to pocket you rather than pick a fight. I seriously question your judgment here in suspecting me.

I think actually pushing me here is very scummy because I am the only person suspecting you and you won't even have to waste a night kill on me.

You don't seem interested in engaging with my reads at all and instead are very quick to omgus it's hard for me to see that as town.

a) i'm not really sure how this is 'doubling-down' given that i never really scumread you before
b) i did explain why i scumread sam, i'm not sure why you're implying i didn't
c) i admire your pluck
d) and yeah, i'm not really sure *why* you chose to pick this fight, but apparently you did sooooooooooo
e) i'm not sure why you're questioning my judgement here in suspecting you - from my pov why is this a bad conclusion
f) the fact that you're scumreading me isn't inherently the problem, the problem is that *i think your read is bad and scummy*. you can't really argue that i'm just scumreading everyone who's scumreading me - i'm not scumreading adante, for example
g) i object to you reducing my scumread to omgus
h) also, not sure why you're saying i'm 'not interested in engagine with your reads at all?'

[skitter30]

ffery i'm voting seeds

also i love your flavor :)

fixed, thanks! ~f

[skitter30]

seeds i gotta bounce for rn/tonight but i will circle back later if i can and if not tomorrow (i.e. that means after work)

[skitter30]

that's fair - sorry i just got a massive headache and think i'm gonna lie down for a bit - but i will circle back when i can, i think it's important to address all of your points but dont' think i can atm
out of curiosity, what's your homesite?

[skitter30]

sounds good, let's reconvene soon

[skitter30]

Maybe this is really how you play. I have no way of knowing. But I do think honoring the dead is a valid way of playing mafia. I kill people who sus me all the time. If there was a fight between you and T3 today I would have thought T3 was super town. Why does a newer player pick a fight with one of the strongest players in the lobby unless it's lylo.

I also think it's really lazy for you to just bin me in with some player I dont know from a past game. I put out a number of reasons to suspect you and I spent a good number of hours today reading the game carefully. You show up and in a few minutes your all of the sudden coninced I am mafia. And asking me for what i think your scumgame looks like feels like trying to set me up for an omgus, I obviously don't know what your scumgame looks like I have no idea who you are.

If you want to have a conversation with me tell me why you are sus of SAMCO. From what I read you think his bravado is fake. I seriously doubt a new player would play suicidal like that, exactly as T3 stated on d1.

(I'm bored at work but i might have to leave before i get to everything, i will return and finish later tonight if that's the case)

Ok a few things:
- i'm not being lazy by 'binning you with some player from a past game'. I'm calling out a specific pattern that features specific elements that's happened at least three times before, and i've only seen it come from scum. I've never seen it come from town, and you fit the pattern to a T. I'm not sure why you're handwaving this away
- i also object to you reducing the scumread to omgus, when i laid out a very specific reason for why i think you're scum
- i could make an assumption of how you viewed my scumgame given how you interacted with me, but i asked you to doublecheck my assumption before i rolled out mu conclusion - if you had answered something contrary/different, i would have rethought the read, but you didnt, so. And you clearly did have some sort of preconceived notion, even if you'd now like to say otherwise
- i think i already explained why i was sus of samcro: the bravado ans aggression eod1 looked fake to me. I also said today that he made a few posts that i liked, and that i was rethinking the read, a fact that you're kinda ignoring

[skitter30]

I don't think T3 is a level 1 night kill. I've played enough mafia to know that people's vote pools don't tend to radically change day to day. It is absolutely optimal to remove players who have you in their votepool as mafia, players have a hard time changing their minds on reads as you can see from the SAMCO/creative fight playing out. If you can take out players who will push you next day and make you the center of attention, you absolutely benefit as a mafia. Implying that killing someone who suspected you is low level mafia play and therefore incompatable with your perception of my idea of your mafia play is simply not true.

I admit that my reads can simply be wrong on SAMCO and perhaps I am reading too much into you pushing what seems to me like ez town.

I think i basically addressed 415 in my last post

T3 is a bizarre kill. Its nkt inherently a level1 kill, but saying i did it because he sus'd me would be a very level1 reason for me to make that kill, and i'm objecting to the notion that i would have made that kill for that reason, i would have looked for a pr or killed like kazyen (or something), it wouldnt have been t3. Like killing t3 for that reason basically posits that i'd be scared or worried about getting into a thing with him the next day, ans i am most assuredly not, but you seem to be indicating that i am

[skitter30]

I kinda dislike how you lay out several reasons to tr creative in 426 (similar to my own) but come to the conclusion you still want to flip him

[skitter30]

Btw you can link posts using post-tags, and it would make it a little easier to go back and see ehat you're talking abt

[skitter30]

I'm not sure about on skitter is their post #149, to me 147 felt super scummy, then skitter TRed it?? i

It was worded in a way that i felt would be a little weird coming from scum

[skitter30]

It's hard for me to TR skitter for #406, does reducing everything I said to some other random player who it appears lightly shaded her in lylo and brought up her signature seem town to you? I do agree that #147 seems scummy in the same way SAMCO seems scummy for voting pooky to prove a point, but I honestly think scum would be more subtle in how they end up on a miselim bw rather than openly announcing "I am joining the bw in a super scummy way everyone!"

This is reductive and once again is trying to mitigate the point i'm making

[skitter30]

Maybe i'm just very good at allowing my towniness to shine through :)

Pedit the longer post i'll have to get back to a little later today, apologies

[skitter30]

Fine I am fitting a pattern that you think that only mafia can possible fit into. I am going to be clear why I SR you. You seemed to be pushing on one of my biggest TRs in the lobby, and are supposed to be an experienced player. Those two things do not add up. I was not subtly throwing shade on you for your signature. I thought you were pushing a bad suspicion as a good player - which is a good signal for scum in my eyes.

I did not ignore that you were coming around to town reading him - I made note of that several times in my posts. My question to you is - do you really think that SAMCRO is town and if so, who would you vote instead. I guess the answer is that you will vote me. Well I can tell you that I am town. I was not light shading you by suspecting you - I placed my vote on you when no one else did when the vote was clearly between creative samco. If I am mafia and you had previously TR my slot, why would I go about picking a fight with you?

So my question remains unanswered - do you still feel that SAMCO is mafia or would you want to swap votes? I can tell you for a fact I am town, so if you are really town and assume that I am town - then who would you vote?

at this point in time i dont' think i want to vote sam anymore, no
and honestly i'm maybe rethinking my push on you as well (just noting inb4 you call me scummy for backing off)

your analyses and tone are honestly p good to be coming from scum
i am still tripped up on how you originally approached me, but maybe i'm a bit tunneled atm

UNVOTE:
i need to think a bit before i revote, i'm not sure who i think i s scum at this moment

[skitter30]

oh that timing

[skitter30]

I am conflicted about him being mafia. I've never played forum - but do mafia commonly have the highest post count? I've expressed multiple times that I am conflicted about voting creative. But there are things about him that ping scum, especially on d2. On day 1 his info dumps and reaching for reads early felt a little off. Him telling me that I was a TR from d1 then when I start actually speaking changing his mind and voting me is kind of lols. He says that I am paired with SAMCRO because I am defending him this hard, honestly I tend to be more of a busser in the games I play - I guess none of you know that. But if creative looks at how griff argues with SAMCRO #142 I don't really see how others view that as a possible pairing. He's even swapping his vote over his biggest suspicion in what appears to be an attempt to live because "more people are sussing seeds so I will swap votes." Swapping your vote off of your hard sus does not seem very townie to me, neither does self pres voting.

There is the possibility that I am wrong about SAMCRO being a town, in which case I've probably lost town this game by derailing when it seems that town was going to vote him. I do apologize to the townspeople if that ends up being the case. Maybe my d1 counterpart staying in the game would have been better for town in that case

I reread the game this morning Skitter, and I actually do remember from my initial skim agreeing with a lot of your reads before I entered the game. My concern at present - however, is that you seem quite convinced I am mafia to the point it seems you are more concerned with miselimming me than actually interacting with me. My suspicion on you was open to change once we interacted, but your suspicion on me feels like you are trying to muster the troops to vote me rather than exploring whether you think I am genuine or not. I can tell you my reads are 100% genuine so it feels off that you cannot see that.

a couple of notes:
- thanks for elaborating on creative
- scum don't usually (?) have the highest postcount but at the same time it's not like impossible for them too
- don't worry too much about being wrong on samcro if you are, it's just a game :)
- i actually want to note that i was *not* making any attempt to muster the troops to vote you. i basically made no effort to try to bargain, wheedle, or cajole any particular player to vote with me on you

[skitter30]

also how do you view your scumgame

also i'm kinda like mentally reviewing my reasons to townread various players and even though i just said i'm not actively pushing samcro i think my reasons for thinkign he may be town are the weakest, and given that (outside of seeds) i don't think i super strongly scumread anybody, i may go back there

pedit sure

[skitter30]

Asking if we have a miselim implies you have completely lost track of the game state to an extent that is hard to do as mafia imo. He's either maliciously attempting to play very dumb as mafia or he's just a lost town which seems more likely to me. Mafia doesn't lose track of how many miselims are left unless they are intentionally playing dumb.

i think he looks like 'lost townie' quite a lot
i don't see myself voting either creative or kaz today

[skitter30]

I'm just going to say I thought this over, I don't know if talking about your scumgame is a townie thing or not, but this response to my sus on her feels like something you could pull out on a lot of players and doesn't feel all that specific to me. Feels like she is talking about a pattern more than she is talking about specific things that I did or said. And that doesn't feel townie to me. Like for example when I use pattern recognition on things like omgusses or reciprocal susses I always try to take the players actions and context into consideration. I'm not seeing a lot of that here. Even blindly following a pattern worked 3 times in the past, that is a sample size of n = 3, and to just be willing to scumbin me from n=3 without wanting to bring in more context does seem lazy to me regardless of what skitter says.

oh i talk about my scumgame all the time as both alignments, that bit is utterly nai

i think the pattern was worht investigating - it's p specifc, and i odn't have any counterexamples, but i have several examples of where this reasoning came from scum exactly, and i've caught scum a few times off of it so

[skitter30]

SAM feels like he's tried too hard to dumbtell/seem new, like, claimed, asked about miselim, has yet to make any solid read except against Creative. Kaz and Sam both, feel like they started with a tunnel on Creative, and didn't think to consider Creative being town, ignored everyone else in the game.

yes this is exactly my vibe from sam ^

[skitter30]

Nvm creative is not obv town

Are you willing to explain this now? This is a pivotal moment in the game imo.

I thought he was big softing a power role.

What power may I ask?

i don't think (new) scum asks this ^

[skitter30]

VOTE: samcro
i feel the best about this rn

[skitter30]

I want to point out that creative is clearly not actually new, the same way that I am clearly not new. New to this website, sure. But the way he talks and thinks he's clearly quite familiar with the game.

i don't think he is actually

[skitter30]

he's just saying a lot of things in a bit of an awkward way - like he's familiar with the game on some level but i don't think he's played it much

and g'night! we'll chat again soon :)

[skitter30]

ig i question wheme a bit more but i thought his 'no i prefer to answer that question later' thing when asked multiple times was very townie

kaz i also got very strong townvibes throughout the game but maybe i owe this one a reread. it's a little harder for me to articulate this one

[skitter30]

oh gosh, so much pressure :/
let me reread kaz, i'm not sure i can promise it tonight but i will do so soon

[skitter30]

Uh i'm not caught up fully but incidentally saw this

Uh wheme why are you so confident again?

[skitter30]

I'm not planning on it. Lets wait for the sam replacement

[skitter30]

Is it had that i'm thinking wheme/sam rn?

[skitter30]

i think kaz's 523 is townie, but i caution him against setting up such strong dichotomies as he did between creative and sam

[skitter30]

i don't see myself voting creative today and i'm kinda surprised that wheme is scumreading him so heavily

[skitter30]

reviewing kaz's iso:

- i get townpings from 53
- 65 townie for similar reasons taht creative is townie, it's just so pure + great tone
- and like voting creative in 71 for being lamist in the exact same way he was lamist in 65 feels unikely to come from scum imo
- 79 - the retroactive on his success in prior mafia games feels like coming from a townie perspective to me
- 224 - in his prior post, he asked 'how do you analyze a wagon'. when i gave soem guidelines, he immediately went and did so .... makes it seem like he originally was very interested in trying to analyze the wagon, and had townie intentions when asking that question
- kept trying to keep the game going / talking while we were waiting for the replacements
- 384 - just townie

i don't see myself voting him today

[skitter30]

creative had you claimed?

[skitter30]

Now I no longer think you are a power role I think you are scum

when did you stop thinking he was an pr?

[skitter30]

i'm p sure iirc it was you who softed vt p early on too
wheme why did you think he was a pr again?

[skitter30]

wheme i'm kinda starting to sr you ngl

[skitter30]

wheme why did you think he was a pr again?

sorry, did you answer this?

[skitter30]

I mean it depends on the strength of the read, a small read would definitely be reasonable on anyone by anyone, but a strong one this early is more likely pocketing or some nefarious tactic especially considering I have done nothing too townish yet, however we must remember mason possibility this game and that will also affect people's reads, I am not saying me and skitter are masons but it is something to look for in people's later reads. also cops definitely with experience will include their results in their reads, But as it's only D1 with no headstart there should be no invest results.

this was almost a vt soft imo
meh ok i agree that you probably kill him last night tho

[skitter30]

oh man ... :/you maybe shouldn't have claimed just yet. i don't think you were imminently gonna flip

and i thought you were softing vt

of course, if sam is not scum we flip you tom
but i'm very content voting sam today

(and whooooooo my reads are good :) )

[skitter30]

the proper way to do this is everyone formally says whether or not they cc.
can someone voting creative unvote just so there's some room to do the massclaim process without any 'unfortunate' accidents?

i am not counterclaiming (i.e. i claim vt)

[skitter30]

thanks wheme

[skitter30]

i'm like >90% confident that this is true (cuz if samcro doesn't flip literally scum we just flip creative tomorrow)

so A2. and presumably sam is not the rb
seeds' scum equity goes up given how heavily he was defending sam....

[skitter30]

Kazyan
CreativeName
SAMCRO
six pomegranate seeds GriffNotGraph
Andante Megan Thee Stallion
T3
PookyTheMagicalBear (SE)
WhemeStar (SE)
skitter30 (SE)

kazy i townread a decent amt
creative is basically conftown (assuming sam flips scum, etc)
sam - presumed scum
seeds - well, defended the presumed scum an insane amt
andante - town
t3 - dead
pooky - dead
wheme - eh
myself

so i think it's just sam + one of wheme/seeds, probably seeds
maybe we can all say what we think the solve is now?

creative, why did you track sam?

[skitter30]

y not again?
( i mean i know that and agree with you, but why is that from an outsider's pov)

[skitter30]

i think going sam -> seeds -> wheme probably wins the game, that's just my opinion

i dont' love that you're mitigating the strength of your defense of sam tbh

and sorry that your day was rough

[skitter30]

also post massclaim i don't mind flipping sam without actually getting a replacement ... we never don't flip that slot here i think

[skitter30]

i think it's good that you outed if you were worried you might get hammered
i'm not sure we would have been able to concretely determine you effectively had a guilty on sam from your iso

[skitter30]

oh that is good then

[skitter30]

You probably are town in this situation for the sole reason you said T3 or SAMCRO on d1 and then T3 died -

that would imply you would be backing yourself into voting your own mafia on d2 by killing the other player in you vote pool.

SAMCRO was certainly playing to be bussed if they are mafia though. You are probably are town if SAMCRO flips scum - but I don't want to townbin you just yet.

ftr i really wouldn't townread me for this reason alone ... i'm very good at distancing

[skitter30]

ftr i'm very, very, very unlikely to flip kaz before you

if we do end up flipping you next and that doesnt end the game, i will take your reads in consideration (if i haven't died by then, of course), so i would indeed appreciate seeing who you think it is

[skitter30]

All I can say then is regardless of your aligment you will live to final 5. If I was mafia with SAMCRO I will tell you exactly what I would do next.

I would vote SAMCRO, yeet you at night then cry out "Frame! Frame! That's so level 1." Just as you did when T3 died. Although I guess in that case creative will die next regardless.

I actually remember now a major reason why I TR SAMCRO, it's because T3 did.

- honestly if the rb is not sam (and i don't think it is) creative probably doesn't die here. or at least i'd give decent odds to me/creative dying
- again just pointing out that using t3's reads to tr sam is mighty conveninent, esp. since you werent' really using pooky's

[skitter30]

I'm one of the players who refused to vote creative and gave him time to give his red check.

tbf i don't entirely remember the timeline - were you online/posting while he was at e1?

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:
solely to do this properly and make sure eveyone (andante and maybe kaz?) have a chance to officially not cc

i don't think they're going to tho and i'll revote immediately thereafter

[skitter30]

really more that it's in the newbie queue and i think it shoudl be done properly here

it isn't going to change anything ultimately but yeah

[skitter30]

I dont think we need gthe replacement because sam ultimately will aleays get flipped but i want to get andente's formal cc

Kaz, thanks for that analysis. Which pairing do you think is most likely?

[skitter30]

That's hammer i think
Wr should have waited for andante tbh

But see y'all on the other side of night

[skitter30]

Ok so its elo so no quick votes but i think we just flip creative here

[skitter30]

creative what did you mean by knowing we're in 2a?

[skitter30]

like given the andante kill *now* it looks like we're in 2a and there really is a tracker out there who didn't cc you but like you couldn't have known that yesterday from a town perspective

~

i also think that we shold take this time to try to solve the whole game, vs quickhammering. although creative is always the flip here

~
creative at this point you're probably scum but on the very, very, very minute chance you're town i'll go over why the claim was bad adn why we now have to flip you in post

~
also pom now you can kinda see why quickvoting doesn't necessarily help so much
we really should have let the full claim thing play out, but at least a vt ate the nk

[skitter30]

since no one claimed tracker or freindly neighbour it seemed logical that jk was the only power

you said you thought we were in 2a. i don't understand why 2a over 2c

[skitter30]

I was also trying to bait a mafia into counter claiming me because I knew we were 2A

no, you said you knew we're in 2a. there's no possible way for you to know that unless you're scum

even if you meant 2c there's also no possible way for you to know that unless you're scum too

[skitter30]

ngl the fact that they did kill andante almost does look like they were looking for an actual tracker

could be as well that she was just super obvtown but those are my thoughts

[skitter30]

but a tracker wouldn't have claimed at that point yet tho

~
seeds i really admire your dedication and rereading, you're very thorough

[skitter30]

seeds i'm gonna read that in greater depth soon :)

[skitter30]

yeah ngl there is a part of me that still thinks creative is town but if we live in that universe the game is just over because we have to flip him here

usually scum distance on this forum. sometimes scum are somewhat bold and will like hard townread each other but i think that that's less likely all in all

in newbie games i in particular am more likely to do the latter than the former if i can as scum, tbf, just providing you with relevant context

[skitter30]

do you guys need anything from me here?

[skitter30]

my best guess is wheme. like wheme >>>> seeds > kaz or so

i'm a little worried we do live in a universe where creative is town but:
- the game is over anyways
- that would mean it's like wheme + one of you two and i'm not sure how likely it is

creative having experience in a non-forum game doesn't always translate to kinda like ~knowing~ what to do in forum mafia
he could (and did) still read as new

[skitter30]

i can, yes, but i'm going to put it off for a few hours until i'm at a a pc, if that's ok

~

as for wheme not killing t3, i didn't get any pr vibes off of t3, and he didn't have like any ~broad influence~ in the game, and he would be an easy push after day1 i thought, so i wouldn't have killed him there and i wouldn't have expected other experienced players to kill him there either

pedit indeed, sorry :(

[skitter30]

indeed.
also if there actually is a tracker out there you wanna claim now?

[skitter30]

if he is scum he slipped thinking that we're in 2a, which means tracker, no?
and htey killed the one unclaimed person so

[skitter30]

No claim. Still VT.

Speaking of that hammer, do we think Whemestar was trying to cut off conversation, or nah?

ya kinda

Okay my huge paragraph was a joke skitter I'm tracker and I saw you visit Andante :lol:

gg you tried

Seeds for the sake of my sanity I need you to clarify if you're joking or not

it's a joke :lol:

[skitter30]

well also i know i didn't go anywhere last night :)

[skitter30]

right, if he's scum he knows there either should (if in 2a), or shouldn't (if in 2c) be a cc

[skitter30]

i mean im not intending that as a townslip but i still can't tell if we're in 2a or 2c

[skitter30]

i usually do distance and can and do bus really, really hard if i feel it's warranted
(aside not to toot my horn too much but i'm regarded as one of the better scum players on site rn)

in newbie games i try not to bus, i feel like it's against the point of the queue tbh, and wouuld try to do a mutually townread thing if possible, kinda like you just described. i feel this very strongly

i have a lot of quotes talking about how i approach scum in and out of newbie games that i can compile later when i'm on a pc as well

[skitter30]

no that's fine
also this setup has daytalk btw

[skitter30]

yeah that's very out of date, i'll try to compile some more recent ones

i'm looking for the game where i talked about my approach to bussing in newbies but i'm having trouble finding it, give me a sec

[skitter30]

Subject: Newbie 1951 (Day 4)

and that's why i was so wishy-washy around him day1
i prob would have bussed in other games in that scenario but i feel like it goes against the purpose of the newbie queue to bus your newbie partner without, like, communicating with them about it, so i didn't because he had gone awol

so i left just enough room that i could hop on later if needed (which menalque pointed out) but didn't go hardcore on the bus, which left me in an awkward place

also all 3 cases on me were p good imo

oh here we go, this was harder than i thought

and i just feel lke you shouuld have the proper context

i probably tell creative not to do that if he'd have run it by me first, and while i townread him i don't think i townread him that strongly

idk. take that as you will, feel free to ask me any questions
i won best scum here a ocuple of years back for a game where i hard-bussed both partners day1-day2

[skitter30]

yeah basically
if i'm scum i'm close to winning it and i just need to not screw it up at this point

town-me (which is what i actually am) feels p good about both of you town so i'm thinking creative + wheme rn

[skitter30]

ok i actually gotta bounce and do irl things now but if either of you two have questions for me please post them, at this point you're basically deciding the game i think

and if you change your mind on me please give me the oppurtunity to post first since it is elo and one vote on me and we lose

[skitter30]

wheeeeeeeeeemmmmmmmmmeeeeee
who's the partner

[skitter30]

ok figured but why

[skitter30]

hmmmmmmm

[skitter30]

wheme you could also make a very distinct argument that i'm not 'hardbussing my partner' here

[skitter30]

To say that i cant tell if we're in 2a or 2c

~
Seeds i know i owe you some responses to stuff but a lot of my energy has vanished tonight. I promise i will circle back but i'm not sure it's going to happen irl today

[skitter30]

Looks kinda fake to me at this time

[skitter30]

nah i really do :)

and i will circle back to the things i'm supposed to talk about, i'm sorry for pushing it off :/

[skitter30]

A random thought that occurred to me. If Skitter is scum there with Creative - do you think she would have to clout to just straight up divert the vote off of Creative rather than Creative having to fake claim to live? Maybe scum skitter would be so pro she would have taken andante and I for a loop and gotten us to vote into Wheme or Kaz or something there, at least I had said I'm not hammering and Andante literally said she would vote with skitter so I think maybe she could have gotten that done and saved Creative without Creative having to out himself. Just a random thought as I eat dinner.

i probably woudln't try that hard to divert it off i were scum with him

i definitely wouldn't be trying to divert it off while telling him to incriminate himself

[skitter30]

Maybe skitter and creative could have been spooked by Andante toying with hammering. But skitter even said herself said she didn't think he was getting flipped 583 "oh man ... :/you maybe shouldn't have claimed just yet. i don't think you were imminently gonna flip

and i thought you were softing vt"

Could she have saved Creative without him outting? Maybe leading an ML on d2 would hurt Skitters town cred.

i wasn't spooked by andente toying with hammering, i just didn't think he was the right flip
obviously i was wrong, but 'spooked' was the wrong word

if i were queen of hte scum pt he wouldn't have made that claim
i also wouldn't have vetoe'd it outright if he were deadset on it, it is the newbie queue after all.
would have explained at length why it was a bad idea tho

but if i were scum with him and knew in advance he were going to do that i would have bussed hard beause he always goes down afterwards

[skitter30]

Heya i'll be here this evening after work, once again apologies

[skitter30]

ok i am here

[skitter30]

i've actually played with him a while back but he's been offsite for a while and he's playing a little bit differently than he used to
(as a compliment)

[skitter30]

ok i'm going back to ~711, lmk if htere's anything from earlier too

[skitter30]

For completed games where Skitter is scum, the most recent one on Skitter's wiki page is Mini 2049.

ok i said i would compile some good scumgames
(some of these are, uh, long, i don't necessarily rec that you read them per se)
- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=84997 - my most recent one but the setup was not classical mafia and i was kinda demotivated, i wouldn't call this a 'good' one and i probably wouldn't compare anything to this one
- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=82824 - second most recent one, was a p good one
- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82512 - this was a fun one
- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80934 - here's another

i can pull more if you'd like
like i said at some point - i have a p well-regarded scumgame, and i can do most of the things you're saying wouuld be 'bold' or whatever
in the newbie queue in particular i don't really believe in bussing unless it's like extenuating circumstances and my partner wants me to; i feel like it defeats the purpose of the queue

[skitter30]

I thought it was fairly obvious who scum were but I guess not

wheme why is me?

[skitter30]

Maybe a question I have is actually - does Skitter normally have good reads as town? Because I do think her reads were questionable at points in this game. I'm reading skitter's iso and she is exactly how I imagined her as mafia - almost all good mafia play a similar style. I'm still early in this game but the difference between the ISO skitter provides and this game is that her partner was super supicious on d1 so far in the other game. Maybe creative was a little suspicious here in this game but he was at least trying a lot harder. I still think her omgus on me was really weird, but maybe if she's scum I think I had andante / kaz / wheme sort of on my side initially so would that omgus have seemed suicidal for a mafia? Wouldn't a mafia try to pocket me there? I guess wheme wasn't really down with the skitter vote at that very moment.

eh i'm above average readswise but i'm definitely fallible and make mistakes (a lot of them even :/)

[skitter30]

Idrc about convincing seeds I’m not scum I think I only need to convince you

Well if you're town then this game is over and you might as well self vote because I'm town and you need me to vote correctly in order to win. I was also your biggest TR coming into today - your post here implies that I am mafia and thus my vote doesn't matter but you don't care to actually scum case me? Also if you are town here you need both the other town to vote correctly with you, "only needing kaz" on your side does not make sense from a town perspective, there are 3 towns in this game right now and all three must correctly coordinate and vote a mafia for the game to continue.

I don't really understand what you are saying in this quote, it makes no sense from a town POV.

i think it's actually telegraphing who's gonna die tonight ...
i think he wants creative -> you -> me/kaz/wheme lylo, and he's getting a head start appealing to kaz

[skitter30]

My question for you guys is why did Andante die there?

honestly i'm not sure - she was leaning towards wheme + creative and iirc your reads were uncertain eod yesterday so maybe they thought you might rethink things in a way more favorable to them overnight? idk

[skitter30]

How would you be able to bus me, I'm town lol. Since samcro died and flipped town I realized scum were doing it to get two miselims on a town and a town who was acting anti town

man you don't sound like someone who knows his imminent misflip is going to end the game

[skitter30]

Anyways I see how long we have to decide wow. I think the game won't advance that much until Skitter returns.

Q: For skitter - is there a chance that Kaz is mafia still?

ok this is going to be my pre-vote checklist:
- review the vc's
- review kaz's iso
- review how creative's claim went down
- review the first ~5 ages of the game

gun-to-head i want to say no, he isn't, but let me hold off on giving a hard-no until i review his iso please

[skitter30]

ok that was less than i thought.
seeds if i owe you anything else would you mind requoting it please?

[skitter30]

oh i forgot that she was townreading me (that hard), right
yeah honestly that would be a point in keeping her alive for me (vs. you who most definitely was not)

and thanks :)

[skitter30]

There was also a second reason for my vote being on Pooky over someone else, because it means even if for some reason D1 voting runs until EoD, I doubt it but it's possible, We will at least get a solid elimination and read, because you should always eliminate D1 as it allows for discussion and analysis, you will possibly be able to read me better based on my vote and Pooky's flip. We don't want to tie and have No elimination do we now?

man ngl i still think this is townie lol

~
from the first ~2 pages knowing what we know now, i still think kaz pings super townie

another thing to me prevote checklist:
pooky's flip

[skitter30]

Atm, I see it unlikely that wheme and Pooky are w/w possible they are t/t or t/w

We have 2 scum so we should look and see who voted on scum and not, I see it as unlikely to early bus, mainly because it's a suicide move in such a small game

right, he thinks that voting on each other is bussing

[skitter30]

ok that was less than i thought.
seeds if i owe you anything else would you mind requoting it please?

Could you walk me through your mindset on why you were sussing SAMCRO over everyone else?

right, i knew i was missing something, sorry

basically it boiled down to me that he felt bravado-y and fairly fake, especially over the course of the pooky flip - he felt confident in a way that didn't feel natural to me. if you want greater detail let me reread the pooky flip and see what i was thinking

[skitter30]

man i actually really don't think 91 -> 96 -> 97 is partner for wheme/creative :/

pedit i'm kinda rereading the game just now apparently.
so i'll get there soon hopefully

[skitter30]

darn i screwed up the post tags; i had too many tabs open:

91 -> 96 -> 97

that should be better

[skitter30]

94 threw me way off

what exactly about 94 threw you off so much to change your read?

That was a sort of sharpish turn from "obv town" to "maybe not obv town"

I would prefer to not talk about it until later

for this whole sequence of posts to, like, make sense they had to have been planning the fake-claim from very, very, very early on. otherwise i actually think it's anti-partner-y

like ither they started teh game planning this out, or they're not aligned imo

[skitter30]

so you think he is scum? haha? i should vote him then and when he is town we can get you next creative

This also feels a bit fake

I think this is a decent starting vote for now:

VOTE: samcro

basically most of his posting on this page to me seems really over the top and like he's trying to be ~swagger-y~ without anything to back it up

and this is going to be unfortunate to say but i honestly still think creative's tone/posting on whatever this page was was townie
i feel like my early reads were totally backwards and i'm usually not that wrong but honestly rereading i'm still getting the same vibes i did at the time, even knowing all the flips, which is kinda weird and somewhat unhelpful

[skitter30]

i am vanilla townie which means i have no powers which means you can eliminate me and then get creative next, i am fine with that

like in retrospect he was serious but at the time this felt like a bluff

[skitter30]

PookyTheMagicalBear (3): WhemeStar, CreativeName, GriffNotGraph

+ samcro + t3

I think samcro is prob scum?

Roughly like samcro > t3 > griff > wheme > creative in order of scumminess (p7 caveat etc)

man my reads were bad

[skitter30]

Those series of posts is where I actually first TR wheme on my first read through. I thought he himself was softing invest there. I thought he was implying he was PR reading creative then when creative reveals he doesn't know which PRs there are in the game then maybe wheme changes his mind. But to me it does actually kind of make sense for both of them to breadcrumb an invest soft because they know it's 2C from the get go. And I thought that Wheme PR reading Creative on d1 as a partner gives him a great excuse to push him d2 but then ultimtely unvote and swing off creative and misvote on d2 while still accruing the town credit of having pushed him.

Honestly the thing you told me about how you would have been distancing from Creative if you knew he was going to fake claim invest makes total sense to me. Wheme was the one distancing the most right before the fake claim. Kaz had just parked vote but really didn't play up his sus that much - he actually was more like "I'll vote SAM / Creative in any order" which seems like a really bad way to bus your partner because it barely sounds townie lol.

i don't think wheme was softing invest there, it looks like he thinks creative softed something

i think the scenarios are exactly:
-2c and they planned from like as soon they entered the scum pt that one of them was gonna try to fake-claim and this was the setup
- they're not aligned

[skitter30]

Ok so like ... this is why we announce e1 usually

Samcro can you walk me through why you voted pooky again?

VOTE: samcro

right, i was also looking for scum on the pooky wagon and thought that samcro's shenigans enabled it, so scumread him for it

[skitter30]

I feel like this kind of hedging is scum try to overcorrect for pushing too hard. Like, if Creative were town, I think he would continue to go hard on SAMCRO instead of doing this, since SAMCRO is basically confirmed scum at that point.

VOTE: Creative

this is a bit early for a bus vote given the invest claim we know is coming imo

[skitter30]

Does anyone have a friendly neighbour or incriminating tracker result btw?

this is weird in light of scum knowing it's 2c

[skitter30]

This didn't dawn on me until this day to be honest but to me if I'm mafia in this setup and I see we have two goons then one of us should definitely fake claim something I think, especially if it's later revealed that its not the masons setup 3c. There's a 2/3 chance if its 1c or 2c that you get a free RR with no cc. If you know there's a jailkeeper you claim tracker if you know there's a cop you claim doctor.

yeah but you might run into masons
it's worht a shot but it tends to look very suspect tbh given that people know that those setups are ripe for fake-claiming

[skitter30]

This is good, actually. It means that if we flip Creative and he's scum, then we have two almost-confirmed townies.

bizarre thing to write about a partner

[skitter30]

WhemeStar, I don't understand how you think. What makes it so obvious that SAMCRO is confident town?

I can agree with him about creative

Scum aren’t so confident in fake reads that he will vote someone else just to get his point across.

Why do you scumread him?

honestly this doesn't feel partner-y either

[skitter30]

they know it's 2C from the get go.

I realize now this isn't actually true they only knew 2c after T3 days.

It seems like you are reading yourself into SRing me skitter.

i really fucking hope that this isn't where that ends up but as of right now i'm not convinced creative/wheme is the right answer

let me finish reading tho

~
like for the above post: scum-wheme is hardtownreading sam because he shares a scumread on his partner? like that's a weird pov/take, no?

[skitter30]

Well I didn't know that I didn't actually think through that mafia knows the setup until D3. I thought that Creative was just hoping there was no tracker to cc him.

well if he's scum he knows what column they're in. given a jk they know whether or not there's a tracker because they know if they're in A or C (or if they're in B they know if there's a friendly neighbor)

like he either knew he was fake-claiming a role that nobody had, or that he was trying to cc a real tracker. to us it's not clear but he knew which he was going to do

[skitter30]

I assume 1 of 4 things is

T3 Roleblocked the other power role - if this is the case don't claim
Tracker got no incriminating result or neighbour didn't send a message
Friendly neighbour targeted an inactive or the tracker is inactive
We only had the one power

All of these make sense with no claim

Again only claim if you're the tracker with an incriminating result, only claim who is friendly neighbour if it will help decide a lynch candidate/stop a town being lynched. don't claim if roleblocked

what on earth is this if he's scum knowing that he's planning on fake-claiming tracker (which would be what scum-wheme/scum-creative in my mind would necessitate given that sequence of posts i quoted earlier)

[skitter30]

i'm actually not sure
i'm very conflicted, i'm sorry :/

i havne't reached the point where i have an answer that feels satisyfing yet
i'm not sure that that means you're scum but i'm having a hard time making hte pieces fit together for wheme/creative

maybe this is just my worst game in like years and it's just wheme/creative.
idk i'm still reading let me get up to the claim

i'm skipping commentary on your catch up posts

[skitter30]

i have never seen scum townread a partner off of a fake-crumb that didn't exist in all of my years of playing mafia

[skitter30]

Ok im here.

Seeds what do you think of creative?
Andante what do you think of creative?

Im much more confident with a Creative vote here than I am a skitter vote.

again bizarre knowing what creative is about to come up with

[skitter30]

I also think a seeds elim is a good option today, it feels like he came in and realised his partner was open wolfing and needed to protect him, plus more people have SRed him than SAMCRO

VOTE: Seeds

fuck this is also bizarre

[skitter30]

VOTE: Creative

so, what, he's planned with his partner that he's going to fake-claim tracker and votes him to e1 here? like idk

[skitter30]

i didn't actually accuse you of that yet but ok
like i saw that, thoguht it, but didn't actually write it anywhere