newbie 2080: correct statements (this is over)

[MargotRosa]

Hi folks! It's time to break NewD3!

Tracker, please claim. It's not advantageous to scum to claim Tracker.

Don't.

[MargotRosa]

Unfortunately I know exactly what Cook is doing, which means this is gonna be another weird newbie game.

Cook doing this strat as scum:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928402

T3 copying the strat as town:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87394

[MargotRosa]

Aside from anything else, I did the math in Newbie2076 and showed empirically that it's a terrible strat.

The fact that Cook is pushing it, after having pushed it as scum, despite, according to Cook, it not being advantageous to scum, makes me think Cook understands it's a bad strat

VOTE: Cook

[MargotRosa]

I don't really have a handle on this game yet. Well, maybe a little. I'll let Will Geer in on this; I mean that was six or seven seasons on the Walons and he almost always had a line on everyone in the cast.

Truth be told, I'm not so much of a scum hunter as a town hunter. I can spot a John Boy. But if you want me to find an Ashley Longworth, Sr or Jr, it takes me a bit of work.

Sorry, I don't get this reference, but I'll see how well this holds up.

yeah, I get you on the whiteknighting, and what’s more I agree; I don’t think DArby is whiteknighting me, since it seems more targeted

at

Galron than defending

me

especially since he’s disagreed with me a couple times already in-thread

^ This

Aside from anything else, I did the math in Newbie2076 and showed empirically that it's a terrible strat.

The fact that Cook is pushing it, after having pushed it as scum, despite, according to Cook, it not being advantageous to scum, makes me think Cook understands it's a bad strat

VOTE: Cook

I agree. If this is a plan that can be pushed by scum and say it's an advantage for town then it's not as advantageous to town as claimed. I'm fine with skipping this plan.

@MargotRosa Can I see your math?

Sure. There is some intricacies that the math doesn't account for w.r.t. who gets eliminated d1 and d2, so take this as very rough. This is a best case scenario in which we assume Town eliminates at least one scum d1 or d2. I also had to change some 6s to 5s, which was a mistake I realised towards the end of the game

Mafia not killing anyone is worse than them killing a VT. It's not logical for them to take that risk.

Are you suggesting that Scum will not used their NK if we do this strategy?

No. I'm saying that scum going for Tracker in a 50/50 nk/kill tracker isn't worth it if it fails.

VOTE: T3

Switching vote to T3 for what is either some wild scummy behaviour, or a galaxy brain townie that will lead us astray anyway.

If we reveal who tracker is, scum knows who tracker is. They also know that, whatever the setup, there is one town PR left, and if they manage to snipe them, they can take out the tracker, who they 100% already know. Town is automatically far more likely to lose both power roles, if chance alone is factored in.

If we don't reveal tracker, the likelihood that town randomly loses both PRs by d3 is 2/7 * 1/5 = ~5.7% chance. This is not even taking into account whether we have a doctor, and if we do, that chance is lessened even more.

On the other hand, if we do reveal tracker, the chance that we lose both PRs by d3 is the chance of randomly picking the doctor out of the remaining 6 townies, allowing them to kill the tracker n2, giving 1/5 = ~20% chance. Here, there is no real doctor to lessen the chance further, as doc needs to protect tracker on the off chance scum play a wild card and kill tracker as a fake (risk of this happening is higher than the probability of randomly picking the 1/6 townie that scum will also target).

That is how much we screw ourselves by revealing a role. <4.8% chance of randomly losing both PRs goes up to ~17% chance.

As T3 is a seasoned forum player, I'd expect them to know this, or have at least observed it. Absolutely scum read on T3.

[MargotRosa]

As if to prove my point, in that game after revealing tracker, we eliminated the mafia power role d1, and had lost both PRs by the third night

[MargotRosa]

As if to prove my point, in that game after revealing tracker, we eliminated the mafia power role d1, and had lost both PRs by the third night

yessss although that was only because the doctor had to claim at E-1, right? which isn’t something that should happen under Cook’s strategy because we no-lim D2 unless there’s a CC or such

Doctor had to claim d3

[MargotRosa]

And actually, if we have tracker, it's very likely we have a mafia rolecop which makes it more likely scum finds doctor immediately

[MargotRosa]

I'm not lurking. I'm calling out bad plays and watching to see how obvious it becomes that you are scum. And that's a weak as hell vote by someone who is apparently against lurking

[MargotRosa]

i'm gonna go ahead and assume there's no tracker

as a result, we aren't in A2, B1, or B3

unless rep in claims tracker, i'm just gonna say we play d1 normally

that being said, spangled townread for sheer content, DArby i dislike for not having faith, facebones is low content as an RoT, margotrosa is scum lurking, roden is mid-content and most of it has been anti-me but considering that roden is shooting this down as a scum-winning strategy – which it is not – townread, Thynhith null, and Galron is scummy but i can't find any associative tells this early on.

VOTE: MargotRosa you are lurking get in the game

And you most certainly will not assume anything.

I get that you have decided you want to jump in and install yourself as Town leader. Big ups or whatever. That doesn't mean anything, and you stating that we are going to do something doesn't mean that's what we are going to do.

Honestly can't tell if arrogance or a desperate attempt to look so in charge that no-one could ever scum read you, especially given that the last game you pulled this in, you were the scum PR, and got eliminated nearly instantly.

To reiterate:
VOTE: Cook

[MargotRosa]

Will give this a proper look in the morning. Haven't slept in three days, so running on crazy vibes rn

[MargotRosa]

Okay, Mama's finally had some sleep and now it's time to play.

[MargotRosa]

Before I get to a proper read of the game thus far, I want to put my final two cents on the tracker claim strat that cook is promoting:

I hate the tracker reveal with a fukn passion.

Honestly, even if I hadn’t proved it doesn’t work (and I have), even if it actually did work conceptually (which it doesn’t), I would hate whoever brought this play in, just by virtue of the fact that it’s so obviously a placeholder strat which allows you to play the exact same way d1 for scum or town, making reading half of your posts completely meaningless.

It’s anti-town even just by virtue of the fact that it obscures any attempt to get a legitimate read, let alone the mathematical benefits the strat gives to scum.

You claiming that you're going to keep pushing it, despite the proof it doesn't work, both theoretical and its track record of screwing over Town, just proves to me that this is so much more about willing into existence an easy d1 whether you are Town or Scum, and irrespective of whether the strat actually helps your team or not.

[MargotRosa]

Doing this a few pages at a time so I can track how my thoughts change reading through it.

Page 1 to page 5:

Thynhith

Had a very lacklustre entrance with 58, kind of makes up for it by pointing out that Spangled was brought to e-1 in 62. Hard to say one way or another, but slight Town lean.

Spangled

Throwing Town vibes all over the place. My goodness. 12 13.

Was a little unsure what to make of 16 given there are a lot of words to say not very much, but I agree more or less with the underlying sentiment.

All of page 2, and a newbie reading through the ISO of someone in a different game, who isn’t playing in our game, to test the validity of a strategy in action this thoroughly was almost enough to make Spangled lock Town.

All of page 5, but especially 121, 122 and 123 are genuinely so sweet, oh my goodness. You sweet little Townie, you are Town locked and you are adorable, I want to keep you.

Facebones

Very little impression made whatsoever. Not really allegiance indicative, given that I only started posting page 5 myself.

Darby

First scum lean, and it's a hard scum lean.

14 and 15 are ISO filler, and the trend continues. Continuing RVS on page 3, and casually bringing Spangled to e-1 60 looks very bad.

Filler continuing through 72 73 74.

I'd also note that I initially overlooked 116 because I was just pleased someone immediately agreed with me, but it’s definitely scummy in retrospect, especially given the habit that is developing of just jumping around and quickly sheeping anything that bites.

Mewtaph

No impression

Cook

Will just point to post above about why I find the tracker stuff irritating. Lots of posts, but nothing outside of the Tracker stuff up until the end of page 5. 21 is a pathetic post though, and jumps on Spangled for what is otherwise an incredibly Townie ISO.

Galron

Straight up, if I was pushed to solve right now, it would be Darby and Galron.

What the fuck is 33? Like, fair enough, don’t read through another game, but actively trying to work out a strat isn’t scum.

ISO packed with filler 52 for instance. 53 is a post that says nothing but looks like it doesn’t, which is more scummy that filler imo.

Voted for Spangled again 81 when Spangled at e-1. Was this a mistake? Trying to encourage someone to vote for them and hammer? Wild.

118 came from nowhere and I do not get it at all.

Roden

Another slot that is impossible to read because of the tracker play. Like, it’s not just Cook, but a Scum Roden could also coast off the tracker strat (51 for instance). Gut saying Town, but impossible to say

[MargotRosa]

So as of bottom of page 5, reads are (in order from most to least Town):

Town Lock

Spangled

Town Lean

Roden

Null

Thynhith
Cook
Facebones
Mewtaph

Scum lean

Galron
Darby

[MargotRosa]

Will park my vote here until I get a chance to come back and continue reads

VOTE: Darby

[MargotRosa]

I don't agree with all of Margot's reads, particularly about Spangled and Galron, but I do like them. I don't feel great about Darby's alignment but I don't hard scum read him, and at this point Cook is coming off a lot worse.

@Margot:

What makes you put Cook at Null now even though you were going hard at her earlier as being likely scum?

I backed off Cook a bit mostly out of frustration over the whole tracker play thing, and history has taught me that when I'm feeling particularly emotional about a read I need to back off and clear my head. Putting them at null was mostly because I was too worked up about the slot to read clearly. Time has passed though, and some of their recent posts make me more inclined to trust earlier instincts

[MargotRosa]

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

Nope. Honestly, especially when it's a slow game, anyone still doing it after page 2 is automatically on my radar for time wasting

[MargotRosa]

Sorry I've been out of town (pardon the pun) for the last few days, but I have reread or skimmed the entirety of D1 so far.
"Spangled, on the other hand is much more straightforward, and everything else aside, if they aren't the pair; and I have to decide if I am in a newbie game where mafia is trying to scam us with a ridiculous display of open-wolfing, or a more traditional nervous newbscum just slipping here and there slightly, and I think that being honest with myself I have to conclude the latter as more probable."
Val the issue I have here is I think you're tunneling too hard. You're picking up on lots of small "tells" here and there and it looks like a plausible newbscum. I see much of this attributed to personal playstyle. Which posts do you think have a nervous tone to them? His constant questioning seems like his choice, rather than aiming to misdirect town. I would say he is scumleaning at most, and certainly more pro-town than Galron. Both of them I wouldn't lim D1.
My preference for D1 would be Cook, on account of the questionable strat she pushed. I'm not willing to support any wagon yet tho - I feel there's a scum we're not seeing

I love this in a newb game. I like your slot

[MargotRosa]

In more concrete terms; here is scum!Cook outlining the scum side of the strategy in 2075s Mafia PT:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

It is apparently a "modification" of a super strategy for town, presumably meaning there is some tweak here that stublely turns it from +town to +scum.

For completeness, here is the post in that case where Cook outlined the strategy to town in that game.

Now, compare and contrast that to how it was outlined in #76. You would expect some slight modification if this was a town!Cook now outlining the REAL +town superstrat - the secret sauce that means scum can't do the above. Except I can't see a difference. It looks

EXACTLY

the same.

In fact, the fact that it appears to be this obvious is giving me some slight pause. Is she really as audacious as to go ahead and pull the same thing again in plain view and expect not to be found out straight away? You would have to expect to see some modification to the strategy for this to be +town now when the exact same thing was outlined as +scum to her scum partner in 2075, but unless I am being totally dim, I can't see it.

Can everyone else put some eyes on this and tell me what it is I am missing here?

Ugh. Full disclosure, I started ISO diving your slot to fact check the thing about you going to ask lots of questions and Darby having already asked them, and then I find this and read it properly. It's so good. I hate it

[MargotRosa]

let's not do my strategy this game

next time sure

not this one

i've tried to make it clear by my disinterest in my own wagon that you're in the wrong place

uhh

no thoughts

head empty

this is not an optimal way to try to talk your fellow players down

God, this is honestly policy elim worthy

[MargotRosa]

In any case, it looks like people think Cook is the better flip for the day, although I still contend there is a chance Spangled and Cook just end up being the team.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if your argument against voting for Cook is scum motivated. 3 days is just enough time I don't think I need to go ahead and vote myself here without a bit of discussion, but I do think we have to be careful not to let this game stall out - which like I said before, I think it has potential for, and I feel will only benifit scum. Clearly, Cook has been quite content to let things ride.

You should all be aware by now what Cook considers the scum playbook for this situation, where no tracker does bite the bullet and claims D1. If you don't, I would consider that fairly negligent if you are town, given how we have gotten here. If you haven't already, go read it now, so you don't have to take my word for it as to what I suspect may well happen next. The first 10 posts are the important part.

It's fairly clear that we may need a day or two for every player to check in to sort out anything that comes as a result of putting a scummy player working from that playbook to E-1, and the only reason I am not doing so myself at this point is in case Cook does decide to depart from that strategy and self-hammer, in a situation where I have two players sat at null reads, and another player who I am scumleaning on the basis of a partial read that might change when she returns to the thread.

If there is any chance of a self-hammer, I want to make sure if there is anyone who wants to say something else that they have had a chance to say it, but because of the above, I am giving notice that my intent is to vote Cook once people have a chance to wiegh in.

Val, I think you’ve got your mind made up on me and nothing I say will change that. And don’t answer that with a semi-smug ‘yeah nothing should; you’re scum’.

Sorry, I’m so annoyed. I can’t respond logically to your posts. I’ve tried to outline what I thought at the time as best I could, and it hasn’t got me anywhere, and that just makes me mad. Maybe ‘cause I’m way too tired.

I’ll make a considered response tomorrow, after I have had sleep. Or maybe I won’t; this is brickwall-head-trumpet kind of stuff.

Just piss off with the ‘belatedly’ nonsense, it wasn’t belated if it was in time for you to see it, now, was it?
god, your tone, please
I won’t elaborate what I dislike about it; it’s not scummy or anything, if anything semi-self-righteousness is towny, it’s just making me mad
and I did elaborate, a little
damnit

far out, Facebones had said the only AI stuff so far
I stressed that the townpile he was sitting on top of at the time wasn’t large

and my point with how it can be stupid to read others for their reads is that you don’t know what goes on in another player’s head, at any stage, unless they choose to share that, or even if they choose to share it
sure, yeah, you can read others for reads, in fact you sort of have to, to say you shouldn’t is stupid itself, sorry, yeah, but approach that carefully, goddamnit, approach it carefully, because each other person will see the same posts from the same people differently to you

ha, I baited myself into responding
but let me respond more fully later

I just...

Bear with me

But

This is such a clearly blatantly and obviously scummy post, and to imagine it coming as a response to the first bit of concerted pressure the slot has received this game, I'm honestly even more convinced that Spangled is Town

[MargotRosa]

Margot really doesn't like rvs.

Nope. Honestly, especially when it's a slow game, anyone still doing it after page 2 is automatically on my radar for time wasting

D1 is about to end do you have a finished reads list?

VOTE: Cook is the obvious choice

I like your slot a bit more than I did, but mostly because the arguments Val is making have made sense, and not enough to really change my mind on the slot just yet. I'm less sure about my slight Town lean on Roden, and there is no chance at all I'd vote for Spangled d1, or d2 to be honest. Facebones is so impossible to get a proper hold on, but I'm missing a chunk of posts in between p6 and p10 that have not yet been read really clearly. Not a massive fan of Galron at all. I vacilate on Val a lot, but it's in a similar way to how I vacillate on T3 when they are playing, which makes me think they are likely Town. This said, I don't have many Scum reads, which is something I'll need to rectify for d2

[MargotRosa]

I'm already voting cook. Have been since game start. I was playing for emphasis

[MargotRosa]

Never mind.

Yes it was.

No regrets.

Some regrets

[MargotRosa]

That's a terrible page top. I think, however, this is my first actual hammer, so that's neat, and I would probably have hammered anyway had I known, given proximity to EoD and it being an obvious vote

[MargotRosa]

Oh lol.

Well, if that was intentional by Galron, that's probably Town indicative

[MargotRosa]

This game is super quiet. Thanks, Val, for putting in the effort. Your work on cook seems solid. Somehow it still feels like lhf, but it's a decent case.

VOTE: Cook

OH MY GOD GALRON VOTED TWICE AGAIN

I don't think so. I checked the last VC and I wasn't voting for anyone. I think my last voting action was unvoting mew (bc I'm an idiot).

DArby's right.

306

[MargotRosa]

Can someone who has a clearer idea of DArby's meta please tell me if the slightest little tic in my head telling me that his last three/four posts are indeed scum indicative actually is corroborated by his game style?

[MargotRosa]

Dark and mysterious. I love it. MafiaScum going back to its hard-boiled noir detective fiction roots

[MargotRosa]

UNVOTE: , as we've actually got 3 days, and not the almost EoD I was led to believe it was

[MargotRosa]

ugh

UNVOTE:

[MargotRosa]

This is such a clearly blatantly and obviously scummy post, and to imagine it coming as a response to the first bit of concerted pressure the slot has received this game, I'm honestly even more convinced that Spangled is Town

While we wait, would you might explaining this?

Honestly, you lost me, and who knows who will be around to ask or answer such questions tomorrow, given it looks like out illustrious mod is on high alert to lock the thread the second the hammer comes down.

I just don't think any newb gets that emotionally upset, in that specific way, if they are Scum.

I have seen comments like this happen, at the first sign of trouble, and it's rarely a scum that's doing it, especially not noob scum:

Just piss off with the ‘belatedly’ nonsense, it wasn’t belated if it was in time for you to see it, now, was it?
god, your tone, please
I won’t elaborate what I dislike about it; it’s not scummy or anything, if anything semi-self-righteousness is towny, it’s just making me mad
and I did elaborate, a little
damnit

When it has been, it's part of a pattern of newbiness that stretches across d1, and not something that comes out at the first sign of pressure and only then.

I guess, put as succinctly as possible, an emotional Scum is emotional the whole time, because they are engaging in a series of lies the whole time they're playing. It's always the same game, and pressure coming at them is just what they've been anticipating since they got the red role PM.

An emotional Town noob however, changes drastically with the game, because they goals change drastically as the game does, between hunting for scum, and making sure they don't get eliminated. So it's easy to go from being very happy, very invested, very serious, very contemplative, to very upset, very targeted, very paranoid, etc.

[MargotRosa]

We have three days, and I'm honestly more interested at this point with what I'm doing d2

[MargotRosa]

Don't forget, whatever you might think about how a Town noob verus a Scum noob might act, that noob might very well be receiving some coaching behind the scenes.

This is very true, but at the same time, I seriously doubt that anyone getting coached behind the scenes is being told to get emotional as soon as you get pressured because that will build you Town cred. It would be hard to pull off convincingly for someone without practice, and much easier strategies already exist

[MargotRosa]

What? Shouldn’t you be putting more focus on reading more of the game like you said you wanted to do? I don’t see how waiting until the limit is helpful. Unless cook role claims we’re just stalling at this point.

This just isn't true. I have played games in which hard and fast eliminations happen, but they happened because it was bleedingly obvious who scum was, and everyone was in solid agreement about it

That's not true here. I imagine Cook will be eliminated. But this isn't a situation in which it's obviously justifiable to cut d1 short by 3 days

[MargotRosa]

From the Scum PT you linked, Val, I actually think that Cook thinks this strategy works lol.

It doesn't, and I've shown that it doesn't, but seeing how they act when talking openly to scum makes it clear.

What makes it obvious is the bit where she posts the modification of the strategy:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This, by the way, is what I would imagine the modification to be. Not the lay out itself, especially given that she doesn't seem to want to give it out at game start, but the actual play by play. She has no reason to lie in Scum chat.

Honestly, my read of this situation is that Cook came into the game wanting to try out the new strategy she'd made. She rolled Scum and was like 'eh, fuck it, I joined this game to try out the strat and I'm going to do it anyway'.

She modifies her strategy on the fly. We know this, because there is an almost day's difference between her posting the first message in Scum PT and the modification. And the modification is bad. It's awful. It takes a strategy heavily weighted to Town and makes a strategy that, if it were employed by Scum, would make it so obvious which players were Scum, by virtue of all the AI shit the modification would require them to guide Town into carry out.

On top of this, we have had no fake Tracker claim. So she can't be using the modification. And why would she use the strategy as Scum if she genuinely believes that the Strategy is Town weighted unless the modification is used?

I honestly feel like moving Cook to a Town lean, just by virtue of this, and the fact that it makes the whole tracker debacle make sense in my head

[MargotRosa]

Someone get off the Cook wagon ASAP. I want to talk about this

[MargotRosa]

If anyone hammers right now, I will tunnel you to kingdom come tomorrow

[MargotRosa]

From the Scum PT you linked, Val, I actually think that Cook thinks this strategy works lol.

It doesn't, and I've shown that it doesn't, but seeing how they act when talking openly to scum makes it clear.

What makes it obvious is the bit where she posts the modification of the strategy:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This, by the way, is what I would imagine the modification to be. Not the lay out itself, especially given that she doesn't seem to want to give it out at game start, but the actual play by play. She has no reason to lie in Scum chat.

Honestly, my read of this situation is that Cook came into the game wanting to try out the new strategy she'd made. She rolled Scum and was like 'eh, fuck it, I joined this game to try out the strat and I'm going to do it anyway'.

She modifies her strategy on the fly. We know this, because there is an almost day's difference between her posting the first message in Scum PT and the modification. And the modification is bad. It's awful. It takes a strategy heavily weighted to

Scum

and makes a strategy that, if it were employed by Scum, would make it so obvious which players were Scum, by virtue of all the AI shit the modification would require them to guide Town into carry out.

On top of this, we have had no fake Tracker claim. So she can't be using the modification. And why would she use the strategy as Scum if she genuinely believes that the Strategy is Town weighted unless the modification is used?

I honestly feel like moving Cook to a Town lean, just by virtue of this, and the fact that it makes the whole tracker debacle make sense in my head

Quote edit in bold.

Does anyone else have any thoughts? Cook, can you corroborate/am I off the mark in an interesting way?

[MargotRosa]

Yes, I certainly have some thoughts.

What is the modification? Thats the simple question I have been asking along. What changed between how she outlined it in 2075, and how she outlined it here?

The modification was the things she told her Scum team she was going to do in the quoted post, where she lays out what she's going to do d1, d2, etc.

The reason you aren't seeing any differences, is because this only existed in a Scum chat. Town can't see whether there is a modification or not, because the difference is whether or not she posted this modification in the Scum chat and carried it out, which she can only do if she's Scum.

[MargotRosa]

One of us is GROSSLY misunderstanding the other here. She lays out what she's going to do on d1 d2 d3, just like she does to town in 2075, and in this game.

The only difference is when she is explaining it to town, she tells them its town sided (it isn't). When she lays it out in scum chat, she explains what scum are going to do (either fake claim PRs, or just shoot the ones who are induced in to claiming too early) if town go along with it.

She DOES THE SAME THING IN THIS GAME. Yes, we can't see if she is posting this playbook in scumchat in this game, but there should be a modification to the bit she tells TOWN, in the normal game thread, and to my mind there isn't.

I even asked her direct, and this is what she said:

one crucial detail that differences that game and this one

i have a green role pm

But don't you see. That IS the difference.

The way the strategy changes are her instructions that she lays out

only in the scum chat

.

[MargotRosa]

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

Day One, I'm going to ask the Tracker to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
Reasoning: If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
As no Tracker exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
Day Two, I'm going to ask for a Cop to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's no protectives if Cop claims and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
If no Cop claims then you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player. If a Jailkeeper pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If Masons claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

back now.

Cook's Handy, Dandy Plan

1. Tracker claims Day One. If nobody claims Tracker we just eliminated three setups (A2, B1, and B3).
   Protectives go on the Tracker claim. This will mean that the Tracker is jailkept in A2 and protected in B3.
   
   Tracker reports result D2. If Tracker claims blocked then we know we're in A2 and play the Tracker as an IC. If scum tries to ride the towncred then they're functionally down a player.
   If Tracker claims a result we just go Follow The Cop from here since Mafia only gets a rolecop.
   
2. If no Tracker claims then we have a normal D1 with a normal D1 elimination.
   
3. D2, Cop claims with result. Scum killing either the cop or their clear will result in the other one being IC'd the next day, therefore they must shoot elsewhere.
   
   If Masons exist then one Mason claims Cop with a clear on their partner, since either one dying proves the other one.
   
   If Scum tries to do this with partners then we'll end up 1-for-1'ing cop claims and we'll invariably win.
   
4. If you get an FN message, claim it but not who sent it. If you or the FN are run up to E-1 you may claim the message. We will preserve the FN from elimination for one night to let them send another message, if someone reports it the next day the FN is cleared. Jailkeeper, if there's a claimed FN don't prot them for one night, let them get a message – if scum kills them that leaves us rolecop vs jailkeeper, which we can win. This is our worst possible configuration.
   
5. Prots don't claim unless you're at E-1 or you need to counterclaim.

Again, what is the difference between these two pictures? Cook herself says the difference is this time she has a green role pm, and we just have to take that on faith. I say they are exactly the same.

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

[MargotRosa]

Like, the modification is horrific. I've already said that. It mostly comes down to assuming both that:
a) Your strategy is amazing, and also that
b) No-one else is able to come up with a relatively simple modification and create an amazing strategy

[MargotRosa]

To put the question back at you Val, do you think that she writes up all these instructions in the maybe 24 hours between when she tells Scum chat that this is what she wants to do, and when she tells Town this is what she wants to do.

Or alternatively, is this a Town strat she's been cooking up for aaaaaages, written down and, in her mind anyway, perfected, gotten very excited about, and is so excited to share that she spills the ebans even when it's the least advantageous time to do so?

[MargotRosa]

And what difference does that make?

Let me put it this way. If Cook was town, and you and me were the scum team, what stops us from following the instructions Cook laid out to WhemeStar in the previous game, if the rest of town had been useufl idiots and brought it from her when she starting selling it early on?

Cook isn't going to be posting it in our scumthread, but she doesn't need to, because we can just read it from the 2075 scum PT. Or is she banking her entire factions chance of sucess of us being too dense to go back and read that previous game?

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

[MargotRosa]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

[MargotRosa]

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

[MargotRosa]

You're assuming that Cook thinks, from the outset, that people are going through her old games to find her new strategies, and also assuming that Cook isn't working under the assumption that noone else is going to come up with the cool new strategy she's come up with

So in other words, yes.

In your head, the only that stops our theortical scumteam from taking advantage of a town who a town!Cook manages to persaude to buy in to this new fangled strategy is that we don't read her previous game and read step by step how we can take advantange of it as scum AND we don't figure it out for ourselves.

And town!Cook acutally truely beleives its +town, but is wrong. Despite having being able to work out that step-by-step fakeclaiming playbook. But its still not good for scum.

Have I got that right?

Not quite. Because
a) It's not a good strategy for a scum team to do, because it requires so much AI activity from Scum to push, so Scum going back and employing it is not good, and
b) I don't think these things, I think Cook thinks these things, and I think that the strategies themselves, bad for Town as a general mathematical rule, and bad for Scum if Scum are pushing it because of AI, should indicate pretty clearly that Cook is very capable of believing in things that are obviously not true.

[MargotRosa]

I would like to apologise to Cook if this is all coming across as mean, which is unintended, but almost certainly the case.

[MargotRosa]

Quite aside from anything else;

I find it really bizarre, honestly, that you are this adamant, and honestly this emotionally invested (for the first time this game, I might add), for a vote you claimed to not be particularly sure about not 1 page ago.

I find it interesting also that you voted for Cook as soon as I took my vote off.

Were you worried we were getting too far from elimination and Town was losing interest in the tunnel?

[MargotRosa]

I need to think this over a bit.

Also Roden, just no. Anyone else. It's not Spangled.

For right now, I am going to park my vote on my number 2 most likely to be scum

VOTE: DArby

This implies that if Cook is town that you think they're wrong about more or less everything though.

I get why you're so insistent about why Spangled is town but a Darby vote just feels off.

Again, this is going to sound mean, but my Town read of Cook rests almost entirely on thinking that they're wrong about more or less everything, so yes, I do believe that

[MargotRosa]

The thing that changed my mind in the Scum PT is that Scum Cook here makes sense to me only if she thinks that her strategy is weighted towards Scum, and only Scum.

But she doesn't. She thinks it works for both. Which she states in the one place that you can trust everything she has to say - a scum PT.

That's fukn bizarre. It's ludicrous. It's obviously wrong. And if she believes that, what other fukn wild things does she believe?

[MargotRosa]

The fact we don't have a tracker claim as a pretty obvious start

What? No? Why would a potential tracker claim if there’s not even a plan for them to rely on?

I know! It's a wild, obviously bad play. Who the hell would do that? But that's the strategy that she lines out in the scum PT. If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

[MargotRosa]

It would more or less still fulfill the requirements she sets out in the original scum PT. The point, according to her, is outing Town PRs when you get counterclaimed, which it would still achieve even if it just outs a counterclaiming tracker

[MargotRosa]

DArby, (and everyone else for that matter) I would suggest until we establish whether or not Margot has just had a legimate total-180 on a wagon that she herself describe as "obvious" less than 3 hours ago, I would not take anything she says about the operation of Cooks 'strategy' at face value.

Don't take my word for it either. Read it yourself. Here it is again:

Okay, I figured out the strategy.

This is a modification of a superplaying strategy I made for Town.

• Day One, I'm going to ask the
  Tracker
  to claim and to post results from now on and for protectives to be on that claimed Tracker, should they exist.
  
  Reasoning:
  If the Tracker gets roleblocked then we know we're in the A2 (JK, Tracker vs Roleblocker) setup. If they get a result we treat that as a soft clear of that player.
  As no
  Tracker
  exists, this means we publicly "eliminate" setups A2, B1, and B3.
  
• Day Two, I'm going to ask for a
  Cop
  to claim and to post their clear from last night. If Cop claims, I ask for protectives to stay on Cop. The trick here is that there's
  no protectives if Cop claims
  and Townies aren't going to lie as that will directly harm Town. And then we just shoot the Cop, and we just confirmed we're in C1, both publicly and privately.
  
• If no
  Cop
  claims then
  you claim Cop with a clear on a scummy player
  . If a
  Jailkeeper
  pipes up to counter this claim then I'll shoot the Jailkeeper the next night. If
  Masons
  claim to counter this claim then that's our next two shot targets and then Town is left without a power role to spare.
  
• What your fakeclaiming Cop also does is in the event that you die, your scummy clear looks like it's trying to clear a partner, and then Town might go after them.

This is the claim Margot just made:

If there is no tracker claim, a member of scum needs to fake claim tracker

Decide for yourself if that is correct. Then decide if anyone who makes that claim can be trusted on these matters.

The final decision that needs to made, if you have decided that claim doesn't hold, is if Margot is simply mistaken, and is being accidently usefull to scum, or if there is something else behind it. My jury is still out on that last one, but I've made my mind on the first two.

By post 9 in Scum PT, she seems to have landed on the Tracker claim strat as the way to go. Admittedly, one of three, but that is the one she seems to have landed upon

[MargotRosa]

Are you ignoring 408 accidentally, or intentionally Val?

[MargotRosa]

Ok, fine, I'll drop it. I don't know that it's actually amounting to anything other than having people scum read me for, honestly, behaving not only within my Town range, but with a kind of frenzied thought process that is more or less exclusive to my Town range. That's fine.

If Cook flips green, I want Town to bear me on a palanquin until the game end, and if she flips red, idk, fukn do whatever you like

VOTE: Cook

[MargotRosa]

e-1

[MargotRosa]

I am inclined to Town read Val I think

[MargotRosa]

yes because you are all bumbling buffoons who fail to recognize i could give a damn about defending myself

Then you're a good candidate for policy elimination tbqh

[MargotRosa]

you've made it crystal clear you don't want me in this game, but i want me in this game

you keep reasoning that my lurkage is as a result of me being strategic with my plays and hiding in the scum pt

guess the fuck what

i have no scum pt

Why not just self-hammer then instead of trying to fill the thread with WIFOM?

no, do it yourself, coward

or maybe you could pull your head out from the trench you've dug yourself and go kill someone who'll actually flip red

Cut out the AtE. Role claim, make some arguments, throw out some reads, do literally anything but act smug and claim we've lost the game when we're the ones here trying to win, and you seem to love the idea of everyone else losing.

You're certainly not acting like you want to be in the game

[MargotRosa]

oh fu-

too early

Not how posting on this site works. You see previews of new messages when new messages pop up. You'd know you weren't eliminated. This is so scummy.

[MargotRosa]

@spangled No. We're being forced to watch performance art which no-one bought tickets to

[MargotRosa]

Can you hammer though? I'm so done

[MargotRosa]

We're still a vote off I think

[MargotRosa]

Also, just so you know, I would not be posting here, I would be posting in the Scum PT, and all my quotable lines would just be me talking into the void as she refused to listen to me telling her not to do what she's doing.

I am not scum. I would be having a lot more fun right now. This whole thing only benefits Scum, unless Cook is in fact Scum, in which case I have no clue what to make of anything anymore.

I'll give her this much. Nothing quite says Cook's play style like employing a strategy that, irrespective of which team she's on, solely benefits the other team.

[MargotRosa]

Which is why I think, still, that she's likely Town.

[MargotRosa]

Like, if she was Scum, Scum can at least say "why are you doing this obviously bad thing". Here, it's entirely possible that the reason is that she's Scum, even though if she's Scum it'd be bad for Scum, so the obvious answer is to eliminate her.

God, Cook would make a fukn fantastic Jester

[MargotRosa]

I can get behind a push on Facebones

[MargotRosa]

Especially if Cook flips red, the only partners that make sense (from my perspective) have either been very quiet, or like Roden in Newbie 2076 and have been non-confrontational and with ISOs comprised mostly of questions, and piggy backing on other people's reads

[MargotRosa]

Which is why I think, still, that she's likely Town.

Who would be your other preference for elim D1 then?

To be completely honest with you, I think my earlier assessment that the tracker claim has meant that d1 is a write off that can realistically only end with COok's elimination would remain true either way, and it's not worth fighting anymore.

DArby is not great, Facebones isn't great, you aren't all that great either.

[MargotRosa]

Anyone not on this wagon right now is missing out

[MargotRosa]

[MargotRosa]

What a pagetop.

Also, I started the Cook votes. Don't get ahead of yourself Val

[MargotRosa]

What a pagetop.

Also, I started the Cook votes. Don't get ahead of yourself Val

That's such a bad argument tho and you know it.

It's not. Every post I made up until 162 is encouraging Town to vote Cook

[MargotRosa]

You don't have to believe my reasons for believing that Cook was Town (which I'm still not convinced aren't true). But they were there, they were elaborate, and I posted them as I was coming up with them, as I hope the frenzied tone adequately conveys

[MargotRosa]

What a pagetop.

Also, I started the Cook votes. Don't get ahead of yourself Val

That's such a bad argument tho and you know it.

It's not. Every post I made up until 162 is encouraging Town to vote Cook

I mean you know very well that scum can bus their own partner. Being first doesn't always mean being town.

It would be a terrible bus to push the entirety of d1, and then try and genuinely turn it around at the actual very last second

[MargotRosa]

Derailing a wagon when it begins to take off is VERY different to trying to derail a wagon literally just as it's about to succeed

[MargotRosa]

Mods are asleep...

[MargotRosa]

Which is why I think, still, that she's likely Town.

how’d you go from calling her ‘performance art’ scummy to this?

It's anti-Town. Which is different to Scum. One is hampering Towns ability to find scum. The other is being scum

[MargotRosa]

pagetop!

given it looks like out illustrious mod is on high alert to lock the thread the second the hammer comes down.

and this quote is funny

[MargotRosa]

You don't have to believe my reasons for believing that Cook was Town (which I'm still not convinced aren't true).

Can I point out quickly that

was

town is kinda strange wording pre-flip.

Read the last few pages worth of my posts. It would be strange if I was saying anything else.

[MargotRosa]

Admirable that Cook hasn't been going ham since twilight started

[MargotRosa]

Ok, now let's actually play the game

[MargotRosa]

VOTE: Facebones

What's your deal?

[MargotRosa]

Galron has been killed in the night! he was a

vanilla townie

!

I’m sorry

what

I agree, this is weird as hell. I can't think about it too much, or else my brain will snap and the game will never end

[MargotRosa]

I still don't like Darby.

[MargotRosa]

Honestly it was smostly gut, but bolstered somewhat by Darby coming in immediately after thread reopened to instantly direct conversation to be about something very specific

[MargotRosa]

I do t trust myself to read Roden. Certainly not D2. I can maybe have a good look soon, but I lost to him recently and had very very little clue that they could even have been scum at all

[MargotRosa]

Val’s still alive because scum killed Galron for crumbing.

Amen. Galrons last words were, refering to me, were "Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going."

I am inclinded to treat with suspicion anyone who is advancing theories as to why Galron was selected as the NK without acknoledging that, given what was said in twilight, scum would be forced to consider the possibility they wouldn't be able to take a shot a me without going through Galron first. It looks he basically threw himself in the path of the bullet like a secret service agent, and I am asking myself why some slots are speculating on Galrons reads, etc, and are pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard.

Also I think it'd be weird to hide behind a kill from an argument off of one slot with one post saying it's TvT.

Not entirely true, Cook was calling them both town leans, and I don't remember anyone disagreeing with either of us.

It goes further than that - not only did he call us both townleans, but he explicitly called us TvT just prior to hammer (425). At the time, it pissed me off a bit because I was expecting a red flip and I thought she was mixing the wines right in front of us. Having seen I was wrong, I don't have much choice but to reconsider Margot. The fact of the matter is that I have more than one game where other multiple other slots have been telling me the tunnel I am in is TvT, and they have been right, even ones where I would have bet my kids I was dealing with scum.

As such, I think I ought put some stock in what a now-proven town SE, even one who ran a game like this one did, has to say on a spat I am having with another slot, if they declare it to be TvT. That said, I still have my suspicions about how the wagon turned yesterday - yes, it ulitmately proved to be a mislim wagon; yes, Margot was proved 'right' in that sense - but reading it back, I can't help but feel it was odd.

It was a 10 day phase. We had spent over 7 of them getting Cook into hammer-range; while there were still such a lack of content from some slots as to have multiple null reads in the lists that had been posted, Margot had apparently herself only managed to read in detail the first 5 pages in those days, and she thought this: "UNVOTE: , as we've actually got 3 days, and not the almost EoD I was led to believe it was". She thought, after we had only managed to get where we had after 7 days, that the less than 72-hours remaining was sufficent to litigate the Cook issue further without a claim and rally around another lim when (and this is the kicker to my eyes) she was openly standing in the way of the only other really viable wagon as well. I can't help that think, even though we did evenutally mislim a townie, that a scum!Margot would have been

overjoyed

to see that one turned around, have us then rush into a quick, low info mislim elsewhere, and for us to be spending today still discussing what the hell we do with Cook.

In short, I'm not quite ready to take my turn under that palanquin just yet.

72 hours is only just under half of an average day phase. Why would it be weird for me to want to litigate the point if I didn't truly think Cook was scum?

[MargotRosa]

Also, everyone needs to chill on the Galron stuff. This is exactly what I was worried about happening here:

Galron has been killed in the night! he was a

vanilla townie

!

I’m sorry

what

I agree, this is weird as hell. I can't think about it too much, or else my brain will snap and the game will never end

Everyone is going on about whether or not Galron crumbed. It's been pointed out to me, and honestly, I still don't think it's a crumb. It was a terrible elimination by Mafia on every single possible level, unless we all end up talking circles around whether or not Scum killed Galron bc they wanted to throw Town into confusion, they are bad at the game, or they were responding to a crumb (that was not a crumb, it honestly wasn't even a fake crumb, I still just take from that post that Galron is saying in 493 that, given that Val has worried that they often get NKed by Mafia n1 in a post earlier in the chain, and Galron seems to TR him, he may be angling to be protected if we have a protection role. I'm trying to see it as a crumb and it's still hard.)

Any of the three answers (and there are probably more) are possible. We can debate hypotheticals until the cows come home if you really want to, but we are going to get no closer to working out who is Scum.

What I want to do, is work out Facebones' deal.

If it needs a Galron explanation, then it makes perfect sense to me that someone who is checked out of the game would come back into the game and NK someone after reading a handful of posts and, basically guessing at random, picks someone ridiculous to NK.

It's a good lead, and everyone should take it seriously

[MargotRosa]

I'm just not a big fan of D1's, there's no information to go off. Apologies for my lurky play, but for me it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players and seeing which ones I think are legitimate.

What conclusions have you come to, having watched from a distance?

[MargotRosa]

Just to touch on this a bit, why would scum Val or scum Margot NK you if you incorrectly labeled them as town? Wouldn't that be more of an incentive to keep you around?

The opposite. If Roden is dead after saying we are TvT, then they are confirmed Town and the last thing they said on us, now as a conf Town, is that we are also Town.

It confirms alignment and means the Town assessment cannot change

[MargotRosa]

Spangled, Cook is dead lol

[MargotRosa]

who do you think is scum atm, Margot?

FB and Thyn seem most scummy.
Darby and Roden and null, with a scum lean?
I feel happy with sorting you and Val as Town

[MargotRosa]

Because it was crazy late at night when I made that post. I slept afterwards and worked all weekend. The next time I logged in everyone seemed to have accepted it and moved on.

I think it's a definite possibility that this is scum Roden trying to incite paranoia

Not a fan all the "wtf why Galron" reactions, I've done that so many times as scum.

I'm glad he wasn't pocketing me in the end but his death felt like a newbie mistake. Which yeah obviously this is a newbie game, but Galron ended the day hinting that he was going to protect Val. I don't think a PR would be so blatant, but newbscum high on an easy mis-elim might go for it.

I'll keep you updated on the others when I've had another read through or 3

Given that the reason you gave for lurking was that you wanted to avoid interfering, and this is what came from it, these posts you've made and flipping your narrative last minute make me feel veeery confident that we've caught one.

Happy to wait for Roden tho

[MargotRosa]

Does anyone have a town case for Darby or Thyn?

I'd also like to see your case against Thyn.

@Margot if FB flips red would you consider Spangled d3?

Spangled is my one really solid Town read right now. Sorry, but no.

If that gets me killed, then fine. Feel free to reassess at a later date

[MargotRosa]

That's as explicit as I'm willing to get as far as my attitude to Spangled is concerned

[MargotRosa]

I'm confident in my Margot and Val townreads. If scum is here and I have any say town has lost.

I'm not touching reading Roden with a 10-foot pole right now. I want to trust him but that's been the downfall of many other townies before so not yet.

Thyn feels like a wallflower and a lot of her posts feel they're accomplishing something but a quick look at her ISO it seems a lot of her posts are direct quotes of others or asking others questions. The difference between here and Spangled is here it feels more aggressive.

I've spoke enough on Spangled as is.

I don't see how anyone can actively justify FB without a PR claim.

Ideally, I want to take out FB before anyone else but we're wasting our time waiting on him to come around with potential content. I'd rather we get content from active players now and then circle back before the day's end. More could have been accomplished d1 and I don't like making the same mistake twice.

This honestly feels like a good justification to policy lim FB. But I hate that it would be the second of two eliminations

[MargotRosa]

Nearly just posted my complete read list, but I'm actually learning that is maybe not the smartest thing to be doing every five seconds.

I'm developing a very specific line of thought, so please don't end day 2 too quickly.

For now; DArby, Spangled, Val: Town

[MargotRosa]

But I hate that it would be the second of two eliminations

Was this the complete thought, or was there a word missing here? I'm struggling to understand what you wanted to say here.

I understand you don't want the day to end too quickly, but you are voting Facebones and said earlier you were "veeery confident that we've caught one." It wouldn't

be

a policy lim if that's the case, no?

As in, we'd have had two eliminations that were more or less policy eliminations.

Certainly the case with Cook.

Here it's more complicated. I think FB is scum, but I'm making the case that even if that weren't the case, it's justifiable as a policy elimination, which I presented with the caveat that it would feel bad to have done that twice in a row

[MargotRosa]

This.. was not expected. Why would scum take Galron out? If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

Thyn, can you explain why you think Galron would be taking all the heat today if they were still alive? Also;

On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?

VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?

I am also putting a pin in this for later, because there is something very odd about going from a scum read of Spangled to a Town read of Spangled based entirely on who was eliminated, especially given that you seem to agree with DArby that the NK was weird and intentional

[MargotRosa]

facebones what are your thoughts on spangled

Jury's still out on that one. I'm a little suspicious of 123 and 142, could it be an attempt at buddying?
I don't feel like my three posts should put me at the top of anyones townpile.

On the other hand I feel he was sincere about his initial apprehension and questioning of your plan, trying to get a firmer grasp on it to see if it would indeed be beneficial for town. When reading through, I noticed the questions he was asking were similar to questions I myself was thinking

Self-awareness usually comes from scum, but this thought process of "why are you town reading me" and explaining why town reading him off of so little doesn't sit right with him feels like a really townie mindset. Scum are more likely to just take the town read without a fight here.

After articulating my issues, I'm now a little bit more confident in seeing a red flip with respect to Spangled than I am Cook, although it is close, and I do think

it's possible that's just the scumpair

, gg.

Though Val, what makes you so confident you've already caught the scum pair?

What makes you think Val is "so confident" he's got the scum pair? I'm confused

This read as a town perspective slip to me. This is another questioning post where he doesn't understand another player's perspective but isn't shading when doing so. Scum doesn't care about these kinds of details.

The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671

VOTE: No elimination.

vs the one in this game

never no eliminate d1.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.

This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1

Here he does his homework and points out the inconsistencies that Val was asking for others to point out. Again, this is something he really didn't have to do as scum.

In addition to this, while his post quantity is low overall, nothing jumps out to me as super scummy, and his Day 2 posts have been strong. He's generally coming off as solvey to me, just not in as many words as Val Margot or Spangled .

With respect to the first point, maybe it's that my play is so often very psychologically motivated, but that would usually be my kneejerk response as Scum well before I'd have that response as Town. And that's precisely because of the fact that Scum motivation is an extra step removed from the play than Town is. It's classic WIFOM.

Ie. Town: 1. My main goal is to find scum, rather than to be read as Town. 2. I should question everyone, irrespective of whether they Town Read me.
Scum: 1. My main goal is to be Town. 2. Town's main goal is to find scum, rather than to be read as Town. 3. I will look Town if I question everyone, irrespective of whether they Town Read me.


I can get behind your second point a bit more. Still makes sense to me as a Scum post though, as an attempt to understand where Town's heads are at.


Third point I actually can get behind though. That seems so outside of even the weirdest scum range, especially from a player who is very inconsistent and seems a bit checked out otherwise


UNVOTE: Facebones for now

[MargotRosa]

@Roden, can you please look at 627 and give me your thoughts?

[MargotRosa]

@DArby I don't know what to make of the fact that our reads on Roden's post about FB are almost identical except for the last one, and yet it doesn't even make you reconsider.

Did you look at Facebones' 261 properly?

[MargotRosa]

That came out more snappy than I meant it to. Sorry. @Margot

And thank you. You are doing the lords work @Thyn

That is fine. My point wasn't to relitigate the meta shit. My point is that it's a lot of research to conduct to come to the conclusion that Cook is probably Town (which she was).

This isn't about Cook. This is about the fact that this is a lot of work for Scum to perform to TR Town

[MargotRosa]

I get that. That does seem like a lot of work, which it is. But I'd like to counter that with it is a lot of work reading a game in that he is not playing while actively ignoring this one. That negates any town cred because the work is not about this game. To me it just feels like extra busy work so he can say he did something without taking a risk of looking at this game.

That's a really weird thing to say about this kind of a deep dive.

Maybe it's a waste of time, but that seems way more misguided than it does scummy.

I very seriously doubt any newbie scum spends the necessary time and brain space doing this instead of coming up with a halfway decent scum read of another player.

[MargotRosa]

So you are basing this on the opinions a first time player has about how someone might read their own meta, purely hypothetically, and before ever having actually played as scum to have the experience of knowing what that meta even is???

[MargotRosa]

I don't think this is necessarily AI, for what it's worth, given that I have given far shittier reads as Town in my previous games, but you both (Val and DArby) need to lie down for a hot minute, breathe, and come back with some actual reads based on actual stuff.

Imagine criticising someone for going into an unrelated thread and giving a read you have decided is useless, and then immediately reading an even less relevant post in a completely irrelevant thread, and given a read that is objectively more useless.

[MargotRosa]

Cards on table, I am not, but would love to be scum right now, because you are both playing so hard into my scum meta right now, whereby I just point out the mistakes of other players, break their wills, and then play off their lack of confidence and making them do whatever I want.

This would have been so easy, because this is so blatantly bad. You mislim Cook with bad gut reads, and then pull out even worse gut reads to try and Lim someone I said I wanted to hear something from. You've gone from both being town in my books to being on the cusp of flipping alignments on my read list in all of about 4 posts between the two of you.

[MargotRosa]

I'm not giving Facebones heaps of town credit. I intentionally unvoted, not just because I don't want another fast Elim like yesterday, but because it achieves something very specific, that I hoped (but doubt) another slot might have realised when I did it. Alas. Whatevs.

I don't like this play at all. I'm glad you're not putting FB to e-1 4 days out at least. That at a minimum makes me feel ok having Town read you so hard

[MargotRosa]

As be he was directed to read the post. Many didn't, some explicitly (Galton comes straight to mind). But this revelation came about well after FB would have checked that thread, because the differences stuck in his mind. Aka, he actually took note of them rather than merely collected things for use as scum

[MargotRosa]

The differences FB mentions having thought of in 260 were first referenced an hour earlier in 253

[MargotRosa]

I also think that given these differences were elaborated on because you asked for the elaboration in 259, because it might "change everything", and yet it didn't, because you kept scum reading at least one Town, and didn't twig on FB after that point, I honestly doubt the veracity of what you're saying right now

[MargotRosa]

That you are pushing a slot for doing what you told them to, checking a thread, and by all appearances telling you precisely what it was they found when they look when prompted is nonsensical?

I am stunned by the lack of self-awareness

[MargotRosa]

Yesterday, my change of heart was because I genuinely thought that Cook was definitely Town.

Today, I feel as though the information Roden dug up is genuinely worth considering, and don't want to let you run off with another Town elimination today the way you did yesterday.

Either you have a tunnel problem, in which you're first gut read is the only one that sticks in your mind, or you're scum intentionally trying to sound persuasive while you lim Town without listening to anyone who disagrees with your reads? Which is it?

[MargotRosa]

ANd I didn't "know" anything before Roden brought it up, after which point I read back through the posts

[MargotRosa]

I'm not engaging in the back and forth anymore. It's ridiculous, and looks bad.

My final word on it is this. You quoted, from Newbie 2075, post #2 and #14. You also ask whether there are any differences.

Facebones pointed out in 253 that they saw some. (As did I, but it's of no consequence now)

You asked "but which ones?"

They come back with points drawn from completely different posts than the ones you mentioned (posts 18 from 2075 and 134 from our game).

The change I was thinking of was https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12928671

VOTE: No elimination.

vs the one in this game

never no eliminate d1.

They then come back with reads from another post much later in 2075 to say the same thing:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12936258

If we no-eliminate, that will likely put us at 2 scum 6 town and we can get a confirm townie tomorrow.

This one as well as scum trying to convince people no elim D1 is a good strategy

She's changed her tune a little bit
Granted she might've just pushed the no elim back to D2 instead of D1

Again, these all came out well after it was stated by FB that they'd been through the thread.

I'm dropping this conversation, because I don't know that there's much worth saying to someone who, again, pushed hard on a wagon that led to a Town elimination, even after others tried to point out that the reasoning was faulty. Our back and forth is, at best, good for Scum, and at worst, just completely Scum indicative of your slot, and I want to Scum read you for something outside of your interactions with me before I make up my mind. It is notable to me that this is the second time I've felt this way

[MargotRosa]

Ok, when I am in games that are dead, I have tried a couple different strategies in the past. I have tried going hard on a read that I have that is incredibly shallow to see if it sticks, or will reveal some info I have that might shake up the game state.

Given this is a semi-open newbie game, noone, let alone myself, really has game breaking info to share. So I felt comfortable scum reading you hard to, as I say, see if it stuck.

My rundown of Roden's post was to say that two out of three of the things mentioned are not alliance indicative for me at all. One of them really is. And because of that, the read didn't stick.

Similarly, day 1, nothing happened early. I scum read Cook, mostly on account of big personal beef with their Strat, and being convinced it's whole point was to be pro scum in a way that was not obvious. That changed because I thought about it, I looked at the scum PT, and I came to the conclusion that I hadn't really considered the possibility that Cook just had no clue what she was talking about. It became obvious to me, late D1, that it was more likely that Cook had no clue what she was doing, than that Cook was Scum, and voted accordingly

[MargotRosa]

I feel more confident town reading DArby. I feel more confident scum reading Val. Roden is slipping into scum territory quickly. FB is Null. Thyn is still likely scum. I don't remember who the seventh slot is lol

VOTE: Thyn

[MargotRosa]

I would prefer to eliminate FB than no Lim. We have a day and three quarters by my reckoning

[MargotRosa]

Of course, Spangled, thanks.

Idk with Spangled to be honest. I think they are much more checked out than they have been letting on, which makes me trust them less

[MargotRosa]

In a wild twist of events the only 2 players I think are trustable are Thyn and Val.

This is wrong though. If you are TRing Val right now, you are trusting gut waaaaaaay too hard

[MargotRosa]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Thynhith

So, going through this ISO quickly, I come out of it thinking... there's no one that Thynhith can't be partnered with except Facebones, and even then I feel like there is a /chance/ that it is SvS, because this is the hardest stance that he's taken all game. It's very forceful.

Understood.

For what it is worth, I think Facebones is looking fairly scummy following his response to questioning today.

In normal circumstances, I would be voting there after that, but I still can't shake the feeling that Spangled was TMIing FB as town D1. Thyn tells me he considers Spangles' read to be legitimate, and it's a playstyle thing, but I found that a little unsatisfying given I noticed he took issue at Galron giving a town read on Roden when Rodens' ISO at the time was more comprehensive than FBs.

We are waiting to hear from Roden; I'll see if Spangle's answers can help me resolve the problem I am having, and I think we need to hear a little more from Thyn as to where he stands on issue of Facebones, because I am still struggling to move past a null read there - I've read through the ISO again tonight and still nothing is jumping out in either direction.

My issue with Galron was the lack of substance in his townread, not the read itself. Spangled at least tried to justify his own read, which makes it more legitimate in my book.

As for FB, let me put it this way: take how scummy I am, and FB is scummier than that. This post in particular:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Facebones

What's your deal?

I'm just not a big fan of D1's, there's no information to go off. Apologies for my lurky play, but for me it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players and seeing which ones I think are legitimate. It might be stupid or whatever, but I feel if I interrupt these people's interactions it'll interfere with the flow and I won't be able to get a clear a read on them as what I could.

If they'd left him alone, he'd be drawing all the heat on D2

Would he have been?

Spangled was the only one Galron was really scumreading/pressuring.

Galron stopped scumreading/pressuring Spangled on page 8, didn't he? He then moved onto Cook (voting for her twice and declaring intent) and myself.

My perspective on the TvT scenario is that if Margot or Val have one scum between them, killing the other or me makes more sense than killing Galron.

Just to touch on this a bit, why would scum Val or scum Margot NK you if you incorrectly labeled them as town? Wouldn't that be more of an incentive to keep you around?

Margot, Thynhith, DArby, anyone- I'm here to answer all questions in order to clear up confusion you may have about my alignment

@Facebones

Here you're trying to justify yourself lurking D1. Do you really expect us to believe that was due to your "preference"? I've metaread you. In your games you make over 25 posts D1. And have you gleaned a single thing from lurking all of D1? Nada, you're still rereading. You're not even keeping up to the game. Oh and by the way, quoting snippets in Post 587 and 599 and responding doesn't make you any townier. You have no reads, you have no opinions. If "it's easier to class people as either town or scum from their interactions with other players," you've classed not a single player.

"I'm here to answer all questions in order to clear up confusion you may have about my alignment"
is such a desperate sentence. Townies know they are town. They don't clear up confusion weakly, they proclaim their towniness openly. This is just optics. You don't even sound convinced you are town, because you're not.
I admire your boldness in attempting to convince us your scumlurking was a legit strat, but I'm going to have to VOTE: Facebones

FB is at E-2, curious what he says before we elim him.

TOWN: Spangled (still a bit sus of the super early town read of me and going along with Cook's strat, but does seem to be trying to spark conversation (which is NAI, I know, but to me it doesn't feel forced). I do have similar concerns with DArby as he outlined in 213. Also he stands by his thoughts and doesn't seem to be wishy washy and easily swayed even if those thoughts aren't broadly accepted and go against the grain)

Val: (one of the same reason as Spangled (albeit in a more accusatory manner)- he's asking people questions and genuinely seems to be trying to solve this. His interrogation of me comes across as a genuine townie)


NULL: Thynhith, Roden


SCUM: Margot (for putting forth a decent case on Cook and essentially at the point of no return backtracking and started TR-ing her for reasons still unbeknownst to me)

DArby (due to his constant pushing to try and secure the Cook elim, I've still got my beliefs he's trying to line up townies)

Just a coincidence you're scumreading the guys on your wagon, eh?
Well since you scumread Darby for pushing Cook's wagon, did Val not do the same, and arguably more aggressively? Yet you're townreading him. Margot backtracked, and she was correct in reading Cook as town. Do you think that was TMI coming from scum?
Your readlist comes across as extremely shallow.

just, sorry, haven’t read the last two pages, just wanted to say that quickly
his crumbs — or one of them, at least — were so obvious that I was pretty sure he wasn’t a PR, just either bad scum setting up a fakeclaim or a VT trying to draw the scum shot
what a play! what a fellow!

that’s the thing I deliberated on talking about before D1 end, btw, but I decided (rightly) it’d be better to wait, just in case he

was

in fact a PR, because to out him like that would be a wee bit embarrassing heh

This post is where Spangled draws attention to Galron crumbing to draw the NK. I'm assuming you must have read it while casing Spangled. Imo it was a scumplay drawing attention to the reason for their own kill - what did you think of it?

I feel more confident town reading DArby. I feel more confident scum reading Val. Roden is slipping into scum territory quickly. FB is Null. Thyn is still likely scum. I don't remember who the seventh slot is lol

VOTE: Thyn

What makes FB null for you? He's so blatantly scum, we have to lim him. Unless you can offer a better alternative, and I don't see how I'm scummier than he is? I'm scumreading him harder than I scumread Cook, he's lurked through D1 and barely seems motivated. His posts have nothing to show from reading our iso and he seems hellbent on not helping us at all. If you could offer a better alternative I'm happy to listen to you. Btw, you're missing spangled from your list.

I get where you're coming from on Val and Roden, but do you think them scummier than FB?

Compared to these, which I feel are a lot more... unsure? Unwilling to really press down hard.

I'm flip flopping on Spangled.

Val89's catchup posts, if that's what they are, underwhelm me. Cook's strategy isn't going to be implemented, and while it's fine to talk about players' reactions to the proposal, focusing on the substance of the strategy is futile, and I believe of little value when it comes to reads. (Maybe other than Cook's, but I haven't seen it yet)

Terse and dispassionate is actually a good description of me, Spangled. Unless I get a couple of drinks in me

Quite frankly, they're not any more underwhelming than your posts. There's no issue with you being "terse and dispassionate," but nearly all your posts lack substance. You've posted many one-liners that add nothing of value, and your responses to questions seem to be dodging an answer, rather than an answer proper. I'd expect town to be sharing views and analyzing posts, not giving off vague impression reads. All anti-town. Would love to see some reasons for your Spangled read?

pedit: I love how you're sheeping Val

Spoiler:

I'm townleaning spangles.

weren’t you scumreading me before? what’s changed?

A re-read of the game.

What did you see, in your reread?

A hint you may be town.

Margot is a dead null.

I don't understand the town reads on facebones

Unless that person is Cook, because how can you be alert to an open wolf if you don't feel like reading their lengthy posts?

This proposes that you aren't reading her posts also.

Facebones, can you show me how my not reading those posts leads to me not being aware of their contents?

Giving Roden a town read.

galron I'm not sure how you came to that read after only 5 posts, can you explain your thinking? you mentioned you were a "town hunter" before

Now you're here Galron, still waiting to see why you townread Roden?

A little more familiarty with him.

Sorry I've been out of town (pardon the pun) for the last few days, but I have reread or skimmed the entirety of D1 so far.
"Spangled, on the other hand is much more straightforward, and everything else aside, if they aren't the pair; and I have to decide if I am in a newbie game where mafia is trying to scam us with a ridiculous display of open-wolfing, or a more traditional nervous newbscum just slipping here and there slightly, and I think that being honest with myself I have to conclude the latter as more probable."
Val the issue I have here is I think you're tunneling too hard. You're picking up on lots of small "tells" here and there and it looks like a plausible newbscum. I see much of this attributed to personal playstyle. Which posts do you think have a nervous tone to them? His constant questioning seems like his choice, rather than aiming to misdirect town. I would say he is scumleaning at most, and certainly more pro-town than Galron. Both of them I wouldn't lim D1.
My preference for D1 would be Cook, on account of the questionable strat she pushed. I'm not willing to support any wagon yet tho - I feel there's a scum we're not seeing

@Val can I get your opinion on the possibility of scum!Darby?
I'm starting to sound like spangled now, aren't I?
Yeah I've pretty much decided now - barring anything unexpectedly damning, my top preference is Cook. VOTE: Cook
Val I dislike how you initially zoned in on her strat, and I'm not comfortable using that alone, but it's her other anti-town behaviour that makes scum!Cook much more likely (periodic lurking, no substance, refusal to cooperate, etc)

Phew I was not expecting a full read list, but I'll take it. Fairly reassuring that you have similar reads to me (or maybe too reassuring). I considered Roden and Darby to be townleaning, though I don't have your prior experience with them to say that with as much confidence. Mainly because they the ones pushing people and contributing discussion, consistently. As for Facebones and Margot, I still consider them both null, who lack enough content for me to be sure. Margot's interaction with Cook seemed genuine enough, so I don't think her misreads make her scumleaning. Galron I consider scumleaning, and I'm not sure I could justify reading him as town with such blatantly anti-town behavior. "make it clear HE is following and thinking in the same directions I am, like and 295" is rather ironic because he immediately follows 295 with

VOTE: mewtaph

What say you, mew?

..showing he missed something as important as a replacement.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. Already said how Spangled is too ambiguous to lim now. I'm very curious about how Cook will flip, and about who gets NKd.

On one hand we still have both scum but on the other we have both power roles.

VOTE: Val

Why are you still alive?

VOTE: Val would like to know as well. In any case, this makes me townlean Spangled. Val's primary scumreads were Cook and Spangled. If Val is scum, Spangled is unlikely to be as well. If Val was town and pushing scum!spangled then scum would take out Val instead, so perhaps Val you were pushing a town!spangled D1?
Why do you think scum didn't NK you?

I want to see this flip. But it's time for me to leave work.

Funny people mentioning Facebones because there's something about that slot that doesn't sit right and I wanted to get deeper into it.

But there were a couple of townie things from Facebones as well, like when he pushed back at me.

And also:
"Spangled I'm back and forth on. Facebones leaning scum. Val leaning scum (very lightly bc of little content and I don't remember what the predecessor did)"

These are pretty much his final reads. He probably ends up townreading Val more towards EoD (see above post)
I believe he also said Margot was null, though his read may have changed.

It's really a shame he never gave much reasoning for these..

pedit: Ah interesting take by Galron. Given how Cook flipped, I do wonder if Val was tunneling her for towncred

Ok, lets assume the NK was intentional (even tho it likely wasn't). What are our logical conclusions?
Probably that Spangled felt pressured by Galron, or whoever scum are, they're distanced from Galron, interaction-wise. Spangled was the only one Galron was really scumreading/pressuring.
Since we know the NK was likely intentional, it's possible scum are trying to throw shade on spangled, or are really someone Galron's townread. By Galron flipping green, those townread would get towncred.
Who benefits from shade on spangled? Val, who was tunneling him and pushing for his elim D1. There's no one Galron was really townreading.

I'm falling down the wifom rabbit hole so fast, remind me not to do this again. ^^The above is all speculation, please take none of it as my opinion

I still don't like Darby.

For whatever reason? Or just your gut feeling? I note that you scumread both Darby and Galron for large amounts of filler. Now Galron's flipped green, still confident about your Darby read?

Tbh both of you guys "feel" town to me, it's mainly FB/Roden I'm concerned with

Val’s still alive because scum killed Galron for crumbing.

Amen. Galrons last words were, refering to me, were "Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going."

I am inclinded to treat with suspicion anyone who is advancing theories as to why Galron was selected as the NK without acknoledging that, given what was said in twilight, scum would be forced to consider the possibility they wouldn't be able to take a shot a me without going through Galron first. It looks he basically threw himself in the path of the bullet like a secret service agent, and I am asking myself why some slots are speculating on Galrons reads, etc, and are pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard.

Maybe you'll be protected tonight, if that's where you're going.

I must admit the possibility of his last words being a crumb totally went over my head. It does make sense in hindsight, and far better explanation than newbscum or endless wifom.
"pretending they didn't see that he was crumbing pretty hard" - it may be obvious for you but not half as much for not half as experienced players.

If

they are S/S, the explanation for this shift is that: it is easier to notice scummy things about your partner than it is anyone else, and you do not want to test the waters by throwing something out there, so you softball it. But with Facebones it's nothing held back, which is just... jarring, compared to everything else.

This is a good post

For this, and other reasons, I have come around to voting for Facebones. Aside from anything else, I think it's the most useful PoE vote, and helps sort other slots better than other slots who may be better and clearer scum reads

VOTE: Facebones

[MargotRosa]

Didn't realise, but should have, that spoiler tags don't nest. I have shamed myself

[MargotRosa]

Ah well
What slots will be better sorted if I flip green? What about red?

Green Facbones will make me focus on these three:
- Thynhith
- Spangled
- Val89

Red Facebones downs scum, and will make me focus on these:
- DArby
- Vulture (SE) Roden

I will explain later if desired, I'm just about to go into a late night meeting x

[MargotRosa]

I genuinely didn't realise it was e-1

[MargotRosa]

I don't really have a solid Thyn read, other than agreeing generally that I doubt someone with as empty an ISO as Thyn has is teamed up with FB

[MargotRosa]

Like, the limited context in the post where I voted for Thyn is about as much as I'm willing to give

[MargotRosa]

Or indeed, that I have

[MargotRosa]

Ok, well it's Spangled and Thynhith then

[MargotRosa]

There's no universe in which it is anyone else and DArby is the one eliminated

[MargotRosa]

Yes. Because DArby was NKd

[MargotRosa]

I also find myself a little doubtful whenever a night kill strongly points to a particular scum or scum team - it isn't as if scum can't take that into account when selecting the kill.

I mean fair. But also, I can't help but assume this was just a reaaaaaaally stupid NK

[MargotRosa]

Well, you've lost. Well done dickheads lol

[MargotRosa]

I got mass tunneled without the chance to claim, because of a shady mason claim by the two slots I said straight up were scum.

Slow fkn clap

[MargotRosa]

I mean, given the order and the speed, it's clear that Val and Roden were scum.

Mother actual fucker.

[MargotRosa]

I knew you were scum from day 1, and Roden talked me down from it, that dickhead, oh my actual god

[MargotRosa]

I town read you spangled from the start, and you just casually waltz in and blow it

[MargotRosa]

This is the fifth game of five I've lost now lol, third as Town, I am so bad at this game, Christ

[MargotRosa]

Of course they did. Because it's ELO!!!!?!?!?

[MargotRosa]

There is no tomorrow Val. You won. That was ELO. Which you know. Because you and Vulture both jumped as soon as someone voted my slot

Because that was auto win

Don't be coy

[MargotRosa]

I mean, maybe there's a universe in which Spangled and Val are Scum, but unlikely

[MargotRosa]

Either way, scum won. Well done

[MargotRosa]

This was partly my fault. I should have just said it was ELO. Someone clearly didn't realise, or did and was cocky for 0 reason

[MargotRosa]

Well, lucky for us, that's just straight up PoE solved, then.

I can't figure out what you mean about the stuff with code around it, did you mean post 323?

In any case, the Thyn crumb is pretty conclusive, but this is a ELO, so out of an abundance of caution: any CC?

Fuck it. Good enough for me.
VOTE: MargotRosa

VOTE: MargotRosa

Such caution.

Very waiting until your partner gets into your scum PT to confirm they are ready to simultaneously hammer with you.

FUKN WOW

[MargotRosa]

My first five games are just the site equivalent of getting out your bad dice rolls before a night of DnD...

Right??

[MargotRosa]

Literally waited 2 minutes lol

[MargotRosa]

Yeah, I've played two normals, three newbs, lost all five lel

[MargotRosa]

Also Margot, I don't think it was your fault it panned out like this in endgame -- is a good lesson though, to never vote in ELO until you are ready for the game to potentally end.

It's hard. I feel like I'm sitting about 50/50 in terms of whether to just go with intuition or not

I honestly think I might have been able to convince Town to kill Val if enough of Town had been active at any one moment.

Should not have given up and killed FB, but what do

[MargotRosa]

I'm proud of myself that I trusted myself and hard TRed Spangled more or less the whole way through that game

[MargotRosa]

To satisfy curiosity, why did you kill Galron? Was it just to be fuckheads and get Town riled up over nothing?

[MargotRosa]

Yeah. It was an ok guess Spangled. I just think future should call for more caution

[MargotRosa]

Technically none. I've been doing one of each at the same time

[MargotRosa]

Noone tells me a slot like Val's is clearly Town ever again lol

[MargotRosa]

Also, Roden is getting to policy elimination level lol