Newbie 2090 (Game Over)

[BigTerp]

Vote Count 1-3

TTTT (2):

Alianna, Mr Turtle

marcistar (1):

Lukewarm

Alianna (1):

TTTT

BigTerp (1):

furtiveglance

Not Voting (4):

Somnus, PlmPestPlaY, BigTerp, marcistar

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: March 15, 5 am GMT.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-03-15 05:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Thanks for the add!!

Quickly reading through the game, I had an early read on @furtiveglance as town. @Somnus is seeming scummy

[BigTerp]

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

[BigTerp]

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

In 92 I was joking about the tags under our usernames.

Gotcha. Although joking like that can create confusion. Who likes confusion in a game or Mafia? SCUM!! I've still got you as a town read though, for now.

Speaking of confusion, the first page or two had a lot of talk about a previous game or 2. Seems like a few of you were already in a game together, which is fine. But talk that like, again, is prime for causing confusion. Further cements my thoughts (scum lean) on Somnus and raises my eyebrow towards TTTT.

[BigTerp]

@BigTerp
your only other game on site is from a loooong time ago
have you played online mafia elsewhere?

Yes. I played a good bit on a sports forum, of all places, years ago. About the same amount of time it's been since I last played here, FWIW.

[BigTerp]

I can't get over 108
paragraph #1 - Furtive is a TR
paragraph #2 - TTTT is a scumlean for something he didn't do, but Furtive did do

Fair enough. I went back through the first two pages. Not sure why I had you discussing previous games. You didn't. Somnus did, a lot, as well as Furtive although not as much. Maybe a silly thing for me to get caught up about.

[BigTerp]

.

BigTerp asked if I was cop in one of their first posts, which seems strange. Did they really not know I was joking about being a Rolecop? And do they really not know what the difference between Cop and Rolecop is alignment-wise? They insist on having no confusion but have given me some confusion so far. It could be that they aren't a native speaker/are new to this website/setup?
For now it's a tentative scumlean.

I did not know you were joking. Hence my response about things like that, as well as discussion of previous games, causing confusion and mucking the waters of this game.

No, I'm unaware of the difference in the designation between Cop and Rolecop. I haven't played a game here, nor anywhere, in nearly 10 years. Felt it was appropriate to address what could've been someone claiming Cop SUPER early for no reason. Nothing more.

[BigTerp]

Sorry, hit submit with my fat thumb before I finished my thoughts.

I've got furtiveglance as a town lean, but am a bit confused with post #92. Are you claiming Town Cop there?

Somnus leaning scum is just an early gut feel.

VOTE: SOMNUS

In 92 I was joking about the tags under our usernames.

Gotcha. Although joking like that can create confusion. Who likes confusion in a game or Mafia? SCUM!! I've still got you as a town read though, for now.

Speaking of confusion, the first page or two had a lot of talk about a previous game or 2. Seems like a few of you were already in a game together, which is fine. But talk that like, again, is prime for causing confusion. Further cements my thoughts (scum lean) on Somnus and raises my eyebrow towards TTTT.

Welcome but like...this is such a weird post. I pointed out in my first post that there were a lot of players from newbie 2088 in this game. Then furtive and TTTT very briefly asked about my other game I played on here in which I was scum. I guess in your world I should have just ignored their questions?

Yeah, I addressed that someone mentioned there where a few players in this game from a previous game. I felt it was unnecessary for discussion of previous games in a new game. Causes nothing but confusion, IMO. Which might be a good tactic for mafia to muddy the waters. Nothing about previous games has anything to do with this current game, again IMO.

[BigTerp]

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

[BigTerp]

Hoping to hear more from lukewarm, Mr Turtle, and Pimpest (as well as for marcistar to join) so I have a complete roster to make initial reads of.

Hard hard disagree. Stuff like that (in the first two pages, no less when like 4 people out of 9 were here) helps sort people’s experience/play style. That’s the opposite of confusion. You scum-read me for it but gave the two players asking questions about previous games a null and/or townread for it.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Discussing previous games is unproductive, IMO. Understanding players experience level is a different story and something that is helpful. No need to discuss how someone played previously as Mafia, or vanilla town, etc. though.

So TTTT and furtive get a scum-lean for asking me about my previous scum-game then, correct? And I'd get a town-read if I ignored their questions and told them it wasn't productive? Like...lol what even is this logic.

It was something to get things moving for me early day one. It just seemed odd, as I'm not used to so much discussion about previous games, especially when it directly effects the current game. Maybe it's just that things have changed in that respect since I last played. But especially for a newbie game, I don't see how it's productive. And I certainly am not going to dig back through previous games to try and gain Intel.

[BigTerp]

no, r u?

??

[BigTerp]

.

Also, I am catching what TTTT is putting down wrt to BigTerp's entrance.

He enters the thread with 1 town lean and 1 scum lean, and then before he can even articulate the town lean he is noticing that furtive is claiming a scum role, and is confused, but it also not halting posting his read before he understands what is happening.

Frankly it feels like he started with the read, and then opened the iso and was like "wait, what?" - but could not walk it back because he had already hit send on 101

------

I would move my vote, but I am contractually obligated to leave my RVS vote on Marci at least until she gets here and assures me she is town

To be fair, I questioned if Furtive was claiming a special town role, not a scum role. Either way, again, it seems like play style in general has changed since I last played. I may have some catching up to do.

[BigTerp]

no, r u?

??

what about it

You were directly asked if you were town. Your response was "no, r u?" Please explain.

[BigTerp]

]

That's fine if you choose not to dig through people's ISOs from previous games.

You know what else gets things moving early in Day 1? Discussing people's experience/play-style.

Fair enough. Just not now I'm familiar with playing.

[BigTerp]

[quote="In post 178, marcistar"
I think you might be town B)[/quote]

You're be correct.

Was your post "no, r u?" when asked if you were town just a joke post?

[BigTerp]

I'm questioning the conclusion BigTerp got in post 108.

Confusion is a tool that can be used to town's benefit. While mafia may use confusion to manipulate town to some extent, mafia doesn't like too much chaos. The more confusing the thread gets, the more room there is for scum to slip as they aren't prepared for the confusion. The mafia relies that things follow their agenda and if there is no structure, it's hard for them to fit in.

Oftentimes a quiet, structured or stagnant game means that mafia is in control of the thread. If mafia were close to being caught, they'd try to use chaos and confusion to get out of it. Obviously, if nothing confusing or actionable is happening, mafia is perfectly content with their position in the game and that's a bad sign for town.

I don't think joking or meta reads have helped mafia, really. If anything, they've helped town. Joke posts are often relaxed and authentic, something which can be harder for scum to fake. Talking about a previous games can help contextualize, to those of us who haven't played or spectated those games, about who has meta reads on each other or who has radically changed their playstyle since their last game (possibly indicating an alignment shift).

Like I've already said, it's not at all how I'm use to playing this game. There was and has been a lot of talk about previous games, and I now understand that's a tactic, strategy, etc for many here. Which is obviously fine. I'm just not comfortable relying on others interpretations of how a particular player is playing this game compared to previous ones. I prefer to draw my own conclusions on how everyone is currently playing. I know day 1 there is little to go on, but that's why I try to find something different or odd for me to latch into early.

As far as the confusion goes, apparently I'm the only one it causes it for, LOL!! But I disagree that confusion is better for town versus Mafia. If everyone is scrambling it's easier for mafia to nudge the votes in the direction they want without being noticed. If things are running smoothly yet votes but where Mafia wants them, it's harder for them to make that vote shift unnoticed.

I'm liking your breakdown of the game so far. You seem to belooking at posts thoroughly and providing good conversation about those posts. Feels very town like to me.

[BigTerp]

]

Exactly. There were 4 of us here (5 if you include Luke's 1 post) when the game started and we were mostly joking around, as well as me answering questions about the only other game I've played on-site. So I don't understand this notion that I haven't said anything game-related. Everything I've said after the first 12 hours after the game started has been game-related.

Hilariously, asking those questions apparently got you town-read, but answering them got me scum-read because logic.

Why are you still at caught up on this? I thought I explained myself well in regards to my questioning previous game talk. You even previously said you accepted my "newness" for my strange posts. Yet here you are still stuck on it. Odd!!

[BigTerp]

No...I didn’t say that at all. Furtive did. You’ve either misread the game so far beyond what I thought anyone was capable of or you’re giving the laziest push as scum I’ve ever seen. I don’t care about the vote. Keep your vote on me. You explained it and stuck to your faulty logic and doubled-down.

Ah, you're correct. My mistake. I've been playing from my phone, which is tough on this forum. Hence the accidental early post and misspellings. Not a good look either way though.

[BigTerp]

[quote="In post 178, marcistar"
I think you might be town B)

You're be correct.

Was your post "no, r u?" when asked if you were town just a joke post?

I...i can’t with this. Someone else deal with this.[/quote]

I was serious. I don't get the joking. It's not helpful in any way.

[BigTerp]

Was your post "no, r u?" when asked if you were town just a joke post?

Yes :>

Maybe Aliannas scum..? What do you think about them?

I honestly don't have much of a read either way on Aliannas.

You seem to be making vague posts and asking vague questions. That might just be your play style, but if you're scum, could be a way to show you're staying active and trying to find Mafia. Why have you yet to vote?

[BigTerp]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

Is this vote random? You called out Furtive for claiming a role then voted Somnus. Odd.

[BigTerp]

I honestly don't have much of a read either way on Aliannas.

Do you have reads on everybody else?

You seem to be making vague posts and asking vague questions. That might just be your play style, but if you're scum, could be a way to show you're staying active and trying to find Mafia. Why have you yet to vote?

I like being vague because if i turn out to be wrong i can just be like "ahahaha" and laugh it off easier than going in full force I would.

Do I honestly need to vote right now..? So much to talk about and I don't wanna throw my vote around without being sure and liking the vote.

I have some reads that I plan to get into today. I'm off of mobile now so it'll be easier to type some things out. This forum is tough on mobile!!

That bolded part really sticks out to me. You'd rather be vague and wrong than aggressive and wrong? I mean, I guess that makes sense if you don't want to look scummy with a bad read. But that could very easily come off as mafia trying to hide behind vague posts and reads and then be able to come back with an excuse of they weren't confident or sure on their reads/votes.

No one said you had to vote, I was just questioning why you hadn't. Throwing votes at people is a good way to get conversation going, especially day 1. I'm not sure anyone has solid scum reads at this point. No need to wait until your 100% convinced of that to put your vote down.

[BigTerp]

Is that some kind of joke Somnus? I hate jokes, they make me confused :/

Well done. I legit LOL’ed.

And we all know who love confusion.....

Alright alright. I got my pissy jab in. I don’t want to get mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. I deserve it. I do appreciate the patience, acceptance, or whatever you want to call it as I get my bearings back to playing this game. It's been a LONG time. I promise I'll do better.

[BigTerp]

Here are some thoughts I have this morning.....

Furtiveglance - Despite all the "confusion" they caused early (I KID, I KID, LOL!!!), they seem to be playing a pretty townish game. Asking relevant questions and some decent breakdowns early in the game. Their read on me in regards to my sketchy early posts here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13284834 were spot on. They could've easily went the other way and helped to start a run on myself.

Mr. Turtle - Town lean as well. Much of the same as above in regards to relevant postings. I also particularly liked these series of posts https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285043. Seems like a town player really trying to figure things out and get a feel for fellow players.

Somnus - I'm pretty neutral here. They got fairly squirmy with my early posts calling them out and then putting my vote on them. Scum typically get uncomfortable/squirmy when getting votes. Might just be their play style though. But they seemed to be pretty caught up in my, admittedly, early terrible posts. Like I said before, my early play could have made me an easy target for scum day 1. I do like their participation in the game and them not hiding in the shadows. This is what has them more of a neutral lean for me versus my previous early read as scum. I feel like mafia/scum posts would be more reserved and calculated then what we are seeing with Somnus.

PlmPestPlaY - Neutral. Very little participation. Although, as I mentioned earlier, this post https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285016 seems strange. They call out Furtive yet vote Somnus. I'd like to hear more from PlmPestPlay for sure. A measly 4 post is not much to read from.

TTTT - Pretty strong town lean. A lot of good investigative posts/questions, IMO. Not much fluff to their posts as others have, which always seems scummy to me. Pretty good gut town feel early on that's been solidified after going back through their posts. I also hope you feel better soon, by the way!!!

Lukewarm - Slight scum lean here. For me, they're the least "memorable" player so far. I don't mean that as an insult or anything, but was someone when looking at the activity overview I honestly couldn't recall any of their posts. After going through them, their vote on Marcistar doesn't make much sense. They RVS'd Marci initially, which is fine. But after conversing with them they have scummy reads on myself and Furtive yet the vote stays on Marci. Why?

Alianna - I'm getting some scummy vibes here. Seems to be playing along just enough to stay involved, but without providing much context. This post https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285334 is also rather odd to me. I seem to be their most scummy read, yet they take their vote of off me. Also this post https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285373 has some pretty vague reads on everyone except for Marcistar. This is the first they've discussed Marcistar, unless I missed something, have them as "slightly scummy" (along with me) yet doesn't have votes on either of us. Seems like a good way to be able to come back to either of us (myself and Marcistar) later and claim they've been reading them scum when they flip scum. I know I'm town, so that only leaves one conclusion. I'm pegging Alianna and Marcistar as the scum team.

Marcistar - Scum read. I mentioned previously their vague posts. They've had one informative post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13284596 concentrating on furtiveglance and how they have them as a scum read. Actually a pretty good post presenting their evidence as to why furtiveglance is scummy, yet they keep their vote in hand? I don't understand that. I pointed out that they hadn't voted and they responded "Do I honestly need to vote right now..? So much to talk about and I don't wanna throw my vote around without being sure and liking the vote. " here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285143. They seemed pretty sure in post https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13284596 that furtiveglance is scummy. Seems like a little backtracking to me.

I'm aware this puts them at E-2

VOTE: MARCISTAR

[BigTerp]

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

WAIT OOPS-
I meant to you but anyone can respond ig

Yes, I didn't really like

furtiveglance

's answers to my questions in posts 103 & 110 as well as his mindset 114 & 117. To me it seems that he doesn't want to solve the game because it's day 1 and hides between a curtain of meta by saying "but last game we mis-eliminated on day 1!". However his reads list in 131 was good. He does a full 180 following 130 and puts an effort in to solve, it seems. The actual reads list is hedgy, but I attribute that more to newness than scumminess. Tonally I feel like he's been a bit stiff and forced, as I believe you and Lukewarm already previously pointed out (224 or 8, for example). I'll be honest and say that I have little idea whether his newness is clouding my judgement. Currently, I have him as a scum-lean.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not, but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread. However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him? I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)? How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

VOTE: marcistar

This post further cements my thoughts on Mr. Turtle as town and Marcistar as scum. Specifically their thoughts on Marcistar. It aligns almost exactly with my own thoughts.

Mr. Turtle - Do you have any insight on other players? Either scummy or town reads and why? Any comments/thoughts on my breakdown of everyone in the game?

[BigTerp]

Can those that haven't given full readslists do so soon/refuse and say why not?

What are your thoughts on my readlist?

[BigTerp]

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

WAIT OOPS-
I meant to you but anyone can respond ig

Yes, I didn't really like

furtiveglance

's answers to my questions in posts 103 & 110 as well as his mindset 114 & 117. To me it seems that he doesn't want to solve the game because it's day 1 and hides between a curtain of meta by saying "but last game we mis-eliminated on day 1!". However his reads list in 131 was good. He does a full 180 following 130 and puts an effort in to solve, it seems. The actual reads list is hedgy, but I attribute that more to newness than scumminess. Tonally I feel like he's been a bit stiff and forced, as I believe you and Lukewarm already previously pointed out (224 or 8, for example). I'll be honest and say that I have little idea whether his newness is clouding my judgement. Currently, I have him as a scum-lean.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not, but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread. However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him? I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)? How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

VOTE: marcistar

this post gives me the heebie jeebies but I cannot articulate why
I know how scummy it looks to say this
but there it is

Interesting. I have the exact opposite feel from Mr. Turtles post here. I know you said you cannot articulate why, but would love to hear more on your "heebie jeebies" feels.

[BigTerp]

not opposed to a Marci wagon atm
but let's see how this plays out

VOTE: PlmPestPlaY

I like the pressure on Marci. Would like to get them more involved in the game. I'd also be alright with some heat on Alianna. Either/Or I'd like to get some more substance from and throwing votes their way seems to be the best current way to get that.

Why the vote on PlmPestPlay?

Can you expand on your scummy feelings for Furtiveglance, and why you don't have a vote on them but instead on PlmPestPlay?

[BigTerp]

Can those that haven't given full readslists do so soon/refuse and say why not?

What are your thoughts on my readlist?

I've been townreading Alianna recently. Seems fairly chill
And PimPestPlay I'd have a bit lower down, seems very blendy/coasty, even in a self aware way. I just want more from them really

The others I'd generally agree with to a greater or lesser extent.

Thanks. Although it seems your responses, as of late, seem a little contrived and rather bland. Maybe it's just TTTT's recent posts getting in my head about you though.

[BigTerp]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

Is this vote random? You called out Furtive for claiming a role then voted Somnus. Odd.

Case in point that you are tying yourselves into knots? Somnus voted me so I returned the favor. No deeper meaning behind it. Idk what to make of furtiveglance's theatricality; idk what else to call it. BigTerp can't seem to take a joke. Wouldn't say that's a town trait. Although it's true that jokes cause confusion (furtiveglance, Somnus). Speaking purely objectively. TTTT has the most experience based on join date. TTTT is also more likely to be town, just like everyone else. So I think I'll trust TTTT. I also swear I planned to post that before you voted me. :p

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

So, just like Somnus said, a OMGUS vote. Got it.

I've addressed the joking aspect of the game already. If you can't accept my reasoning, and my attempt to move beyond it, so be it. But pretty weak, IMO, to use as evidence to peg me as scummy.

If you're basing who you trust on experience based on join date, I joined in 2013. Why not trust me?!?!?

You're either not paying very good attention, or intentionally trying to make it look that way.

I don't know what to make of your last sentence about Marcistar's post coming from a bot. Very strange thing to say.

[BigTerp]

Interesting. I have the exact opposite feel from Mr. Turtles post here. I know you said you cannot articulate why, but would love to hear more on your "heebie jeebies" feels.

it feels too carefully constructed
I don't know Turtle yet though
I could say more but then I'll end up talking myself into taking my gut too seriously here

Fair enough. Thanks.

[BigTerp]

@marci
@Alianna
@PPP
same thing
we are several IRL days into this game
everyone should have a vote down

I agree with this. Even Lukewarm, who needing proding, has a vote in.

[BigTerp]

Why the vote on PlmPestPlay?

Can you expand on your scummy feelings for Furtiveglance, and why you don't have a vote on them but instead on PlmPestPlay?

my iso says what I was thinking at the time regarding furtive
I'll be glad to answer specific questions but not really gonna write up a case right now since I'm not pushing for a wagon there
PPP is a better wagon at the moment for some reasons

I will gladly explain in more detail later

I look forward to this. FWIW, PPP's latest post seem rather defensive and squirmy to me. Typical scum reaction when being called out. For that reason I could be convinced to join a wagon on PPP. But I'd like to hear more from them and others first, and I'm also not ready to take the heat off Marci. Especially since they say they will be able to be more active later this evening.

[BigTerp]

Actually regretting spoiling that it’s based on post count now instead of letting you think it was based on your current alignment. A blown opportunity on my part.

I knew for sure it wasn't your role, don't worry about that (I'm Rolecop not Goon)

Imagine saying that, then winning the game as an actual mafia rolecop. I don't have much experience, so I don't believe I can read people on day 1. Can't say causing chaos on day 1 makes someone scum, since that day matters the least. From where I'm standing everyone is just tying themselves into a knot. Guess I'll vote, just because everyone else is.

VOTE: Somnus

Is this vote random? You called out Furtive for claiming a role then voted Somnus. Odd.

Case in point that you are tying yourselves into knots? Somnus voted me so I returned the favor. No deeper meaning behind it. Idk what to make of furtiveglance's theatricality; idk what else to call it. BigTerp can't seem to take a joke. Wouldn't say that's a town trait. Although it's true that jokes cause confusion (furtiveglance, Somnus). Speaking purely objectively. TTTT has the most experience based on join date. TTTT is also more likely to be town, just like everyone else. So I think I'll trust TTTT. I also swear I planned to post that before you voted me. :p

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

So, just like Somnus said, a OMGUS vote. Got it.

I've addressed the joking aspect of the game already. If you can't accept my reasoning, and my attempt to move beyond it, so be it. But pretty weak, IMO, to use as evidence to peg me as scummy.

If you're basing who you trust on experience based on join date, I joined in 2013. Why not trust me?!?!?

You're either not paying very good attention, or intentionally trying to make it look that way.

I don't know what to make of your last sentence about Marcistar's post coming from a bot. Very strange thing to say.

I hadn't noticed your join date. By coming from a bot, I do sort of mean what you meant - vague, generic, plain, etc.

Interesting. Thanks.

[BigTerp]

Mr Turtle, was my reads list good or hedgy?

Sorry, I could've formulated that better! The premise of your reads list was good. It showed that you were taking initiative and putting in an effort to solve, even though you were prodded to do so. The actual reads were hedgy, which I don't blame you for. I used to be very hedgy as well. I believe that it's more related to newness than anything else.

Does anyone seem scummy to you?

Are you talking to me or someone else?

WAIT OOPS-
I meant to you but anyone can respond ig

Yes, I didn't really like

furtiveglance

's answers to my questions in posts 103 & 110 as well as his mindset 114 & 117. To me it seems that he doesn't want to solve the game because it's day 1 and hides between a curtain of meta by saying "but last game we mis-eliminated on day 1!". However his reads list in 131 was good. He does a full 180 following 130 and puts an effort in to solve, it seems. The actual reads list is hedgy, but I attribute that more to newness than scumminess. Tonally I feel like he's been a bit stiff and forced, as I believe you and Lukewarm already previously pointed out (224 or 8, for example). I'll be honest and say that I have little idea whether his newness is clouding my judgement. Currently, I have him as a scum-lean.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not, but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread. However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him? I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)? How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

VOTE: marcistar

This post further cements my thoughts on Mr. Turtle as town and Marcistar as scum. Specifically their thoughts on Marcistar. It aligns almost exactly with my own thoughts.

Mr. Turtle - Do you have any insight on other players? Either scummy or town reads and why? Any comments/thoughts on my breakdown of everyone in the game?

Yeah, I'll give a short reads list (with colors!).

BigTerp

- You have a very straight forward and therefore transparent thought process, which I like. Although you sometimes take jokes seriously, you ask a lot of questions. You are open to understand and to re-assess, which makes me believe that you aren't just looking for someone to push but that you are actually trying to solve the game.

Alianna

- Their entrance seemed authentic. Their interactions with TTTT are definitely not something I'd expect a first time player to fake. Their transparency is also towny. Overall, they seem very comfortable in the thread. Also a hedgey reads list, which I once again will attribute to newness. I do hope that they come back soon, though.

TTTT

- TTTT has interestingly given little explanations to their posts. It's something I have seen a lot of more experienced players do, though for what I do not know. I also believe this is what makes them hard to read. The posts and explanations I've seen from them have been towny this far. Their ISO features a lot of live interaction with other people which I know is hard to fake.

Somnus

- I don't really know what to do with them. They have a high volume of posts and they're playing aggressively. This implies that they aren't afraid to be loud, which is good for town. For this reason alone I'll town-lean them, but I need to re-assess this sooner or later.

Lukewarm

- Hasn't been around much. Their opinion on furtiveglance seems to come from a genuine place, but they haven't done much else notable.

furtiveglance

- Explained above

PImpPestPlaY

- Explained above

marcistar

- Explained above

---------------------

As far as comments on your reads list goes: What do you think of Alianna's posts on page 1 & 2? Do you think that it's fakeable for their first game, especially with regards to their transparency towards TTTT? I definitely agree with you about Lukewarm being the least memorable. I'm hoping that they will post a bit more today. Also, is the reads list ordered? If so, why are Somnus + PPP above TTTT?

Thanks for the readlist. And LOL on the colors. Much appreciated!!! I don't have a lot of time, currently, to go through your readlist, but will when I have the time.

As far as Alianna's posts on page 1 and 2, they felt very flaky to me. Like someone that was excited to play, came into the game, and didn't really know what to say so just joined into the fun banter that the first part of the game had. But at the same time, that would provide good cover for scum to seem engaged and get the post count up yet be rather forgettable posts. As far as their interaction with TTTT, it could come across as rather contrived. You're making some good/interesting observations and asking some good/interesting questions.

My list is not ordered. I went down the ISO list to read each persons post as I made my readlist and that's the order I presented my list in. The only two I put in a specific order where the last two, Alianna and Marciastar because they were/are my scum reads.

[BigTerp]

Lukewarm - I appreciate the thorough responses and posts. I'm not going to go into detail with them (there were a LOT since I last checked in) but you seem pretty towny to me. You seemed to spend a lot of time last night really trying to get some genuine reads on people. Nothing really sticks out as good or bad either way. But it was nice to get some discussion from you.

[BigTerp]

Alianna, since I have you here
who you gonna vote for?

At the moment, I'm debating on that. Marci is my strongest scumread, but I have no idea if it's a good decision to put her at E-1.

Will respond more fully tomorrow but if you’re implying that 198 contributed to my voting you, it didn’t.

I'd be interested to hear what contributed to you putting Marci at E-1. Other than you saying they are you scummiest read and TTTT sort of encouraging it, you haven't laid out much reasoning for that vote at all. Has anything changed since this post https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285373? It was 5 pages and 2 IRL days ago. You don't seem to be providing much analysis in the game, but rather popping in here or there with a few word response that lacks a lot of context and then making a, IMO, pretty big move by putting Marci at E-1. I'm not against an E-1 here, but you're vote getting it there sticks out to me.

[BigTerp]

Big Terp had an awkward entrance

but the dude hasn't played in almost a decade
he's like a Medieval blacksmith transported in time to the modern age

This killed me Good one!!

[BigTerp]

UNVOTE:

I am not comfortable with a E1 here.

Why not? Nervous of a quick hammer? That would be the biggest mafia tell, especially day 1. IMO and experience playing this game, putting pressure on people with votes is one of the best ways to garner information.

FWIW, you being the first one on Marci star then pulling your vote once at E-1 raises my eyebrows a bit.

[BigTerp]

Current Reads List. Note that this isn't a straight 1-8 ranking, but rather sorted into three groups.

Town-lean

Alianna: I mentioned this before, but while people have different styles of play regardless of experience or alignment, some of the playful posts (particularly in the first few pages) seem extremely unlikely to come from newbie scum. In my only other game on the site, I was mafia and while I was universally town-read for being the analytical note-taker, I was also fairly stiff and careful on Days 1 and 2. That's not to say that all newbie scum would fit into that box, but I'm finding Alianna to be legit, relaxed, and townie. There's pretty much no world where I could validate voting for her today.

Mr Turtle: Pretty much straight and to the point trying to solve the game. Doesn't seem opportunistic, as he voted for Marci before Marci had any momentum on her at all. Laid out his scum-reads nicely in 228. The only trend I'm not a huge fan of in some of his posts is excusing a lot of questionable posts as, "well, they're probably just new to the game."

Null-lean

Lukewarm: He was pretty inactive until Monday evening and most of his posts for the first day or two revolved around Marci, even well before Marci had entered the game. Most of his focus in this game has been on the players he is familiar with (Marcistar, furtiveglance, and TTTT). I'm concerned that he may have a blind-spot when it comes to furtive and just doesn't know how to read him. Agree with his read on Turtle. Same thoughts as myself about 291, but a few other players have already touched upon it.

I'm going to lump in a bit of a defence to his accusations of me here. In 284, acknowledges that furtive was correct that the game had a jokey/relaxed feeling early on, yet luke is the 2nd person to scum-read me for it and give everyone else a pass. When the game started at midnight and it was just myself, furtive, TTTT, and Alianna here, yes, we joked around a bit and had fun. I'm never going to apologize for that, nor am I going to apologize for answering questions posed by furtive and TTTT about my playing experience on here (all of 1 game). Playing in my first game as town on here, I've been as transparent as possible and am more than happy to answer any questions about me, including my game-history. But when another player enters the game and immediately scum-reads me for answering questions about my experience and having fun before the game had really started, while town-reading or null-reading the players asking the questions, as well as attributing NAI things furtive said to me, you better believe I'm going to defend myself.

furtiveglance: Not game-related, but I genuinely do enjoy having furtive in the game and having read through Newbie 2088 as it was ongoing, I was pretty bummed out when he said he wouldn't be playing again. I'm glad he didn't quit the site. Anyway...

Some good things and some bad things in his ISO from my POV. I like the jokey attitude. Mostly NAI. Admittedly, part of my town-read of Alianna is for a similar approach, but as I said, I think that approach would be very unlikely to come from someone playing their first game as scum. Furtive wasn't scum in his first game, so I can't apply the exact same reasoning here. Not a fan of voting for BigTerp in post 97 as soon as he replaced in, but I guess I can treat it as an RVS vote? I'm hardly the first person to comment on 110, but I REALLY didn't like this post, even though I understand the history behind it. I don't like the defeatist follow-up in 117. It pings me as "Oh well, Day 1 doesn't really matter." I don't know how he hard town-read Mr Turtle after 3 posts in 131, 1 of which was an RVS vote for TTTT. How was PimpestPlay "blendy" with their 3 posts as well, 0 of which had anything at the time other than an intro? (Note: not advancing the game in someone's first 3 posts is NOT a scum-tell). I'm kind of amazed how many people read BigTerp's faulty logic early on as "clueless townie" (No offense, Terp) instead of pushing on it. This can be seen in 184 from furtive. I like him asking for people to post their readslists in 232. Kind of agree with 303 regarding TTTT.

Marcistar: I'm not too sure what to make of Marcistar. This is one of those situations where I'm probably going to have to do a little bit of meta-scanning tomorrow to get a feel for what they're usually like in games as either alignment. As far as I can tell, luke is the only one who has experience playing with her. Again, joke posts don't = scum. Agree with some of 169. I don't see anything weird about Pimpest mentioning he has played elsewhere, especially in his first two posts. Agree that talking about playing experience at the start of a game is a natural ice-breaker to get the game moving. Not sure how furtive asking about the title under username's is in any way a slip?

TTTT: He's pushed the game along, which I like, and not to sound like a broken record, but I like that he was digging early on in regards to my history on the site. He and I reached drastically different conclusions about Alianna in the first few pages, although he has since eventually unvoted her and agreed with me. I'm going to have a hard time explaining this, but I feel like this is similar to his recent scum-game with MAYBE a slight difference in play? Just a gut feel. Agree with him pushing furtive in 112, 115, 116, and 119 in regards to defending any wagon. Asks furtive if he has anything to say about TTTT's one newbie town-loss and even provides the link to the game, but then later on in 245 doesn't like that furtive wanted to see the game? I saw this act (maybe not an act) before in newbie 2088 about pushing a wagon and then making sure that no one hammers. Could come across as a bit LAMIST but I also get that it's a newbie game. I think 327 is at least a possibility about an absent scum-partner.

Scum-lean

BigTerp: I'm going to try not to repeat myself very much here. I'm still a little amazed by how many people just chalked up BigTerp misreading the entire game up to his entrance as "newbie town" and the fact that he scum-read me for answering people's questions about my playing history while town-reading the people who asked such questions...in the first 2 pages of the game, no less. I was then mistaken for furtive. I can't keep repeating this further, but I didn't have a problem with you voting for me in your opening post. If it had been an RVS post to enter the game with, there wouldn't be an issue. The reasoning behind your scum-read of me has been pretty much exclusively based on either A.) Things other people said that you "accidentally" attributed to me or B.) Answering questions people presented to me. That's either a series of disasterous blunders by town or trying to push a wagon immediately on dishonest pretenses. I still don't know which, as I said in post 191 (I feel like luke missed this post in his assessment of me, btw?). Moving on from all of that though, I appreciae the readslist in 233, even if several of my reads are drastically different from his. I was thinking the same thing about his reaction to TTTT's comments on Mr Turtle's 228 (in post 251). Mostly agree with the remainder of his posts from Monday. Very hard disagree with his take on his read-list on Alianna and in 277 though.

PimpestPlay: Not much to say. Barely any posts. I put a prod vote on him to get him involved when he had 3 "intro posts", so to speak. After the reaction to it, it's no longer a prod vote and I'm currently happy with it. Seemed to imply that I was the one who jokingly claimed rolecop (Notice there has been a weird pattern in this game of attributing things that furtive has said as things Somnus has said). The rest of 201 is pretty bad too. No reads, no attempts to make any solves or question anyone...just a straight-up vote because "everyone else is". As it stands, I don't want this player anywhere near eLo (again, no offense personally. This is strictly game-related). Post 255 at least comes across as an attempt to make a read of the game but the actual content in it is just...ick. Why the unvote of me in 256?

I don't get why you're still caught up in the joking, confusion thing. I explained myself here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13284821 and here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285624. If that causes you to read me as scummy, that's obviously fine. But you seem to be taking it WAY more than that for whatever reason. And I don't get it.

[BigTerp]

Will just say this, since we are at E1.

Assuming me and furtiveglance are town (which is atleast half true, you guys).
Assuming me and furtiveglance are reluctant to lynch day 1, as we both have expressed.
Assuming a day 1 scum elimination would be so catastrophic for mafia, that scum would never vote scum (seems reasonable).

Then a day 1 lynch is as likely to be scum as all remaining 5 town voting the same person. Which seems unlikely to me.

Hey, Pimpest. Just some thoughts if you're still here:

1.) I don't think very many people are assuming both of you are town though, or at least not town-read.

2.) In my only other game on here, I was mafia and I was the most reluctant person to eliminate someone on Day 1. I ended up being the hammering vote with 24 hours before the deadline.

3.) I think they would if there were other options that were more likely to be eliminated. Straight-up bussing off your partner in Day 1 in this setup is fairly unlikely, but parking your vote on your partner if you felt confident that someone else would be the elimination seems reasonable.

I agree with Somnus' take on #3. Mafia will most likely have their vote on their partner as some point in Day 1 for several reasons.
#1 - If gives them something to fall back on to show they had a vote on scum (most important reason, IMO).
#2 - There is little chance for a quick hammer day 1 making the aforementioned a safer thing to do.
#3 - There is lots of movement day 1, so it's easier to move the vote around if things get hairy with their scum partner.

With that said, my questioning of Lukewarm's unvote to get Marcia back to E-2 from E-1 seems even more suspicious.

[BigTerp]

marcistar - Not liking 169. The read on furtive was questionable. Felt like she was fishing for reasons to find them scummy. I didn’t see any of the things she was talking about. 204 seems suspicious as well but I would expect that more from newbie scum. So not sure quite what to think.

What about its questionable? "fishing for reasons to find them scummy" what do you thinks gonna happen so early on when not much has been established? What about the things I was talking about can't you see? I could try to explain better but you didn't really talk too much about what feels bad here so idk whats confusing for you.
how is 204 suspicious at all? my bad i wont ask people for their reads.

PlmPestPlaY

has the least amount of posts. He OMGUS' Somnus, makes a couple of statements I didn't really get in 201. I hope we can convince him to post a bit more and be more confident, else he'll remain completely unreadable. His lack of posting is

probably

due to this being his first forum game - I've been in the exact same place not even that long ago; however there's always the possibility of him being an overwhelmed mafia. He's in the null range for me, but I'd love to see a bit more thoughts even if they're basic and bare-boned.

The only thing I've found weird about 201, is the knot thing, but thats just because im dumb.

I'm a bit wary of you,

marcistar

. I

don't get whether the latter part of 208 is a joke or not,

but being vague makes it much harder to read you and not voting does too. Being able to double down on a take because you formulated it vague on purpose rarely helps the town and it's hard to know where you're at regarding your reads. I also agree with BigTerp's take on you with regards to the vague questions. Asking questions is completely valid and fine - I've done so a lot as well - but I'm

missing the part where you draw conclusions from the answers that you've gotten and share them with the thread.

However I did like your post in 169. You seemed to be putting effort into the game and the case on furtiveglance is the most well thought-out case this game. I just

don't get why you wouldn't vote him after saying you find him scummy and casing him?

I get that you want to make sure that you like the vote (208), but you seemed to have built a rather convincing case on him. At the moment, you seem the scummiest to me. Maybe you could

explain to me why you asked the questions and what you got out of the answers (198, 158 etc.)?

How do you plan on solving this game, what's your approach? It would be appreciated.

It's only partly a joke, I don't enjoy being vague but I don't really have time to do much compared to what other people do. I also kind of generally don't like being agressive, I like waiting until I feel like I

want

to vote, and not caring about whether it'll take off or not.

If the answer to any of my questions were meant to help me solve or anything, if I drop the topic it's probably just the response was "fine enough".

I find him scummy, but not enough to vote. I posted the case to see reactions, and to see if furtiveglance has any way to defend themself first.

198 was a read I had, but didn't want to word in a case like I did with furitiveglance yet, and wanted to see what bigterp thought first. I think now people have seen what I've seen though. I've heard somebody say once that scum has a harder time having thoughts similar to townies, so I've been wanting to test that lately and see if anybody else can see what I see. Simple as that.

My plans just to ask questions and watch for as long as until I get a strong feeling like I want something, and then vote that and park there. It's so much easier when I just poke at things until I get into it. >.<

Let me know if any of these colors are hard for any of you to read.

You'd rather be vague and wrong than aggressive and wrong? I mean, I guess that makes sense if you don't want to look scummy with a bad read. But that could very easily come off as mafia trying to hide behind vague posts and reads and then be able to come back with an excuse of they weren't confident or sure on their reads/votes.

What if I am unsure of my reads
Nah honestly, if I convince myself it's someone, but it isn't, I'll lose motivation thats what usually happpens but idk how to stop that.

No need to wait until your 100% convinced of that to put your vote down.

No I need to wait because I'll probably end up forgetting about ever making the vote in question.

This is the first they've discussed Marcistar, unless I missed something, have them as "slightly scummy" (along with me) yet doesn't have votes on either of us. Seems like a good way to be able to come back to either of us (myself and Marcistar) later and claim they've been reading them scum when they flip scum. I know I'm town, so that only leaves one conclusion. I'm pegging Alianna and Marcistar as the scum team.

Why are you jumping to preflip associatives? Did it never cross your mind that Alianna could possibly have a reason to be scum reading me "so suddenly"?

I like the pressure on Marci. Would like to get them more involved in the game.

A wagon on me of this size

isn't

the way to "get me more involved" believe it or not. If anything it'll make me focus more on defending myself/responding to seeing my name, if we're lucky in terms of me having time I would throw out a few reads, but nothing really says they would be good in anyway.

Some of marcistar's posts look like they came from a bot. But I'm not sure I want to put marcistar on E1.

Seen people talking about this, it isn't a weird comment. I'm unnatural right now.

What are your reads on the entire playerlist, for when you do get back?

I've seen this, I'm acknowledging it, I'm ignoring it now.
Ask me about specific people if you care, but I don't think its useful to make a whole readslist thats just 90% "hehe idk they could be either alignment!!"

This seems pretty squirmy to me. Maybe fair enough since we got you to E-1, but the point of that is, IMO, to see how one reacts. The majority of your response is defending yourself with excuses for not voting and for your play in general. Not at all how I'd expect a town player to respond. In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role). They also give their reads so if they are eliminated the town has some information from a known town player. Defending yourself in this situation is perfectly fine, but all of the stuff I mentioned that's missing is the biggest tell to me. Say you are a special town role, you still should be giving your reads in the event you are eliminated, as already mentioned. Mafia in the same situation would be very hesitant to give detailed reads, nervous their alignment might be soon known.

I'm more than comfortable with my vote on Marcistar and having them at E1 for reasons just mentioned.

[BigTerp]

Can the three with votes outstanding give reason(s) why they've yet to vote? That would be:

Marcistar
furtiveglance
PlmPestPlaY

[BigTerp]

UNVOTE:

I am not comfortable with a E1 here.

Why not? Nervous of a quick hammer? That would be the biggest mafia tell, especially day 1.

IMO and experience playing this game, putting pressure on people with votes is one of the best ways to garner information.

FWIW, you being the first one on Marci star then pulling your vote once at E-1 raises my eyebrows a bit.

Because I was on an e-1 wagon of someone that I was not really scum reading - it was still my RVS vote tbh - and I was actively in the middle of doing a catch up, and wanted to let my vote move once I had done that.

Why do you (or TTTT who also asked about it) think that I should have left my vote in place in that situation?

Fair enough.

My reason for leaving Marci at E-1 is bolded above as well as the fact that they are my biggest scum read.

[BigTerp]

I hadn't ISO'd Somnus
but now I have and you have a point
I started TRing him after his back and forth with furtive
191
219
223
but yeah...

VOTE: marcistar

Marci is now at E-1.
That means the next vote for Marci is the hammer that ends the day.
Nobody should hammer until first giving "intent to hammer" and allowing Marci to claim a role and to let other players unvote if they aren't ready for the day to end.
An early hammer vote will be taken as a scumclaim.

I really wanted competing wagons
but since people don't wanna vote I'll settle for this

I in particular, don't like this coming from TTTT.

He looked at my case, said that I had a point, said that he has been in favor of dueling wagons, but instead of joining me - he is gonna "settle" for joining the biggest wagon happening.

-

@TTTT - Why are you not putting Somnus back on the table if you agree with me once you look at his ISO?

Good point here. Although I feel like TTTT has a similar thought process as myself in that getting votes on someone that you think is scum is the best way to gather information from them, and to a lesser extent, others in the game. Marci had the biggest momentum and Somnus has pretty much zero. If I'm reading both as scum I'm putting my vote on the one with the current momentum to get them talking and hopefully revealing something that further indicates scum or helps their case as town.

[BigTerp]

How to delete accidentally doubled post?

I think you can quote it and then delete it? I would just leave it though, it's not confusing or anything

[BigTerp]

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Can you elaborate? Because I honestly don't see the logic.

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role). They also give their reads so if they are eliminated the town has some information from a known town player. Defending yourself in this situation is perfectly fine, but all of the stuff I mentioned that's missing is the biggest tell to me. Say you are a special town role, you still should be giving your reads in the event you are eliminated, as already mentioned. Mafia in the same situation would be very hesitant to give detailed reads, nervous their alignment might be soon known.

I thought I explained it pretty well in that same post (above is the quote)? I'll try to expand on my thinking though below.

Regardless of how the chips fall, there are 2 mafia and 2 special town roles. We certainly would rather eliminate a vanilla town versus a town special, agreed? So as a town special I can understand the squirming and defense nature trying to stay alive. However, there should be some reads along with that so the rest of the players have something to go on should they be eliminated and revealed as town special. If they are just vanilla town, let it be known, give some reads and make a case for why SOMEONE ELSE should be voted. Don't just defend yourself. It looks very scummy to me.

[BigTerp]

Good point here. Although I feel like TTTT has a similar thought process as myself in that getting votes on someone that you think is scum is the best way to gather information from them, and to a lesser extent, others in the game. Marci had the biggest momentum and Somnus has pretty much zero. If I'm reading both as scum I'm putting my vote on the one with the current momentum to get them talking and hopefully revealing something that further indicates scum or helps their case as town.

This is fine in general - but it piqued my interest mainly because he has repeatedly said he wanted dueling wagons.

Speaking of, ending the day with 2 main wagons, and getting everyone to choose between the two is better for information then just having one big wagon. So wanting dueling wagons is a good mindset too.

Good point here.

[BigTerp]

I fundamentally disagree that survivalism is scummy. I have never, in any game, as any alignment, rolled over and accepted my elimination.

As scum, I obviously don't want to be eliminated

As town, I am the only person that I know is 100% town [barring Masons], so eliminating me is 100% a town miselimination, but saving myself, and having someone else die changes it to a 2/8 chance of a scum elimination.

A 100% town elim is worse then a 75% chance on a town elimination. My win condition requires me to try and save myself regardless of my alignment, so imo, survivalism is NAI

I'm in no way advocating that a vanilla town player just "rolls over" and accepts elimination. What I'm saying is they should at least be making a case for who they think the votes should be on instead of just defending themselves. If they are making, to my eyes, valid arguments for others while defending themselves I'm thinking town special. If they are making valid arguments for others while not being as squirmy, I'm thinking vanilla town. If they are just defending themselves and making excuses (as is Marci's case) I'm thinking scum. If it gets to the point where there is thought of or spoken intent to hammer, the player should absolutely make it known they are vanilla town, or town special. Town special obviously gets NK'd, but it gives the chance of catching scum with moving votes. If the player claims vanilla town, we at least know we are not eliminating a town special. Again, I'm not saying any player just roles over. The interpretation of how they act, as described above, is what's important.

[BigTerp]

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Can you elaborate? Because I honestly don't see the logic.

In my experience, when a town player is close to elimination they make it known that they are vanilla town and that a kill on them won't hurt the town (in a sense that they are not a special role).

Regardless of how the chips fall, there are 2 mafia and 2 special town roles. We certainly would rather eliminate a vanilla town versus a town special, agreed?

Agreed, but I feel like you speak as if there has to be an elimination. I don't see the gain in the town knowing you are vanilla. Town doesn't want to lynch their own no matter what, no? I don't really understand all this bloodlust. I was planning to make a post calling out TTTT for wanting double wagons. I feel like that situation is good for mafia. But now 2 other players have come out in favor of the stratagy. So now I'm just gonna assume I don't know the meta.

Isn't that our goal? To make an elimination via majority by the end of day 1? Honest question. I don't think I've never played a game were there wasn't an elimination during each day phase, at least that I can remember. What would be a good scenario where we don't eliminate someone by the end of any given day phase? I feel like we gain much more information by eliminating a player than not. Maybe things have changed in that regard since I last played.

I never really considered the double wagon strategy, but I do agree with Luke that it can provide a good bit of information. I'd be in for a double wagon myself, but currently feel pretty comfortable with Marci being at E-1. Until we hear more from them, I plan to stay where I'm at.

[BigTerp]

Sorry guys, busy last 20 hours or so. Catching up now......

[BigTerp]

Pretty solid town reads -

TTTT

- Still seems to be playing the game with gusto and really trying to figure things out. Has been my biggest town read since early on.

Luke

- Was an initial scummy read for me, mostly because lack of participation and odd initial posts, but since then they have come in hard and fast with some good analyzations and also seems to be really trying to figure things out. Their post don't seem contrived or forced. Very town like, to my eyes.

Neutral -

Furtiveglance

- Pretty neutral to slight town read here. They seem to be trying to move the game along and not hide in the shadows. The intent to hammer Marci here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13287587 is not something I feel like scum would do this early in the game. Rather something a town aligned player would do to help moves things along, which is much my same feelings.

Somnus

- I'm having a LOT of trouble reading Somnus for whatever reason. At one point I feel like they are being defensive/squirmy, but at the same time as the game goes on it just seems to be their play style. Even though they've been participating more than others, I would like to hear from them moving forward just to help my own reads.

Mr. Turtle

- This has gone from a fairly strong town lean to a neutral/slight scummy lean. Mostly because of lack of posts. The post they are making are decent, in terms of analytics, but they could be defined as contrived or almost forced. Not really seeming to make any bold posts, or trying to mix things up. Most of them are in alignment with others thoughts, which in and of itself isn't necessarily scummy. But mixed with limited posts it gives me pause. They do have Marcistar as their biggest scum read, which aligns with myself. Pretty much the only thing keeping me from being a full scum read here.

Scum reads -

PPP

- Just some really weird posts throughout, and little participation. I don't necessarily contribute post count to alignment, but when a low post count is combined with fluffy type posts I think scum. PPP's are about as fluffy as anyone's. I'm also confused on their vote on Somnus. They don't really put up much of a reasoning for Somnus, scum read Marcistar, ask others to put votes on Marcistar, yet vote Somnus. REALLY odd string of posts here.

Marcistar

- Still my biggest scum read for reasons I've already mentioned. They've done nothing since to change my mind. And PPP's, mostly indirect, interaction with them has me even more suspicious.

Alianna

- Lost cause at this point. Replacement player is only going to muddy the waters here even more. But, that's the way it goes.

[BigTerp]

Marcistar is still my biggest scum lean, but I feel like we're not getting much from them at E-2. Even at E-1 it was mostly crickets. Yeah, that seems pretty scummy to me, but I just don't feel like it's helping us make progress.

I'd like some pressure on PPP. Like I said in my latest read list, they've had some pretty odd post throughout. Their vote on Somnus is because 2 of their town reads are on them, not because they read Somnus as scum. They mention Marcistar as a scumread, yet their vote is elsewhere because of other players. They seem to be soft claiming Marci as scum. By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

VOTE: PPP

[BigTerp]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot? I think I was townreading Alianna.

Good question. Can't say I've played many, if any, games where replacements were needed. I'd lean towards clean slate. Give them a chance to get caught up and answer any questions, at least.

Either way, I strongly think we should give the replacement a chance to do the above before anyone gets eliminated.

What do you think of my read on PPP as well as suggestion and vote to put some pressure on them? You mentioned a few pages back you preferred them over Marcistar. Why is your vote still on no one?

Also, you made it known of your intent to hammer Marci yet preferred PPP. Can you explain/expand on that?

[BigTerp]

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

My initial response to this was why Somnus? You were hot and heavy on both PPP and Marcistar, so I was really scratching my head on your decision to vote Somnus. I went back through your ISO and post like this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13286031 show your questioning of Somnus early(ish) in the game. Then reading through the above readlist, for a second time, your progression from PPP from scum read to null and Somnus from null to scum read seems very natural. Combine that with the readlist than I generally agree with and you're becoming more and more of a solid town read for me lately.

[BigTerp]

the IT guy at work now has this forum blocked
so I'm stuck phone posting during working hours
seriously taking a dump in my Cheerios here

That's not even funny!!! I feel for you.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

[BigTerp]

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

You cannot play this game solely based on others thoughts, opinions, etc. You have to have some sense of self and trust yourself with your reads and logic. Agreeing with and allowing others opinions to help shape your own is certainly fine, but you've gotta have something of your own to fall back on.

That would not convince me and I don't get what you're really even saying here.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

Agreed.

By that I mean they claim Marci as a scumlean, without really claiming them as a scumlean. They say

"I scumleaned marcistar because of popularity and the generic bot-like posts, same as BigTerp. I can understand it though, if there is a lack of time or posting off a phone."

It's like saying I read Marci as scum, but I understand why they seem scummy, so their not scum. What?!?!

There are 2 sides to everything. Why would I trust my own logic?

Would it convince anyone if I vowed to vote for whomever Lukewarm votes? Except for hammering ofc.

It wouldn't convince me, and I don't think it's the best strategy since we have no confirmed town. Also, if you never trust your own logic how can you play the game? Try not to sit on the fence so much.

If you genuinely have no idea, say that, rather than making a point but walking it back in the next sentence.

This!!

[BigTerp]

This last post by PPP really has me now thinking they are just playing a really noob game and feeling extremely uncomfortable. Doesn't feel so much like scum scrambling/squirming, especially since they only currently have 2 votes on them.

[BigTerp]

someone asked how to deal with Alianna's replacement
I don't move them to null
how their predecessor played matters
why would it not?

I honestly don't know what's best here. Such a tough situation when someone gets replaced.

Your read of the starting player and their replacement are both seperate and relevant. Give more weight to the one you find more convincing. There is no subjectivity here, unless you don't want to be rude or something.

Well said.

This is a very clear and lucid post following your last couple posts. You've got my head spinning a little here.

[BigTerp]

Hello. And yes, it seems there is quite a bit of reading to do

Welcome. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the game so far.

[BigTerp]

Boy, this game really slowed down. I hope to see some more discussion today and look forward to hearing from MorbibDino.

REALLY disappointed in Marci's participation, or lack thereof. They are either scum hoping the heat dies off of them by staying quiet, or they are really disinterested at this point and are providing pretty much zero insight. Either way, I feel like it's time it needs addressed one way or the other. Someone said earlier that voting out a player because they are unproductive (or something to that effect) was not a good idea. I disagree. If they are providing pretty much nothing to the game, why keep them around? I still believe Marci is scum, and my biggest read to date. PPP has me back on the fence a bit with their latest post and I'm not convinced that Somnus is scum, but don't mind a bit of heat there.

So I'm moving my vote and putting Marci back at E-1

VOTE: MARCISTAR

[BigTerp]

Shame that Alianna is being replaced, I thought they were a fun/chill presence in the game. Are there conventions on replacements - should we give the new player a clean slate or do we see it as the same slot?

I think I was townreading Alianna

.

Do you really not remember?

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

All 9 players should at the very least appear like they're trying to solve the game though. The fact that only a few do is a problem. And in your hypothetical, if Lukewarm is mafia, then their gamesolving would not benefit town, as it would be scum-motivated. Also, I would argue that I'm possibly the easiest push in the game, as two or three players have at least claimed that they do/previously scum-read me based on tone or having light-hearted fun at the very start of the game when barely anyone was here.

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this, but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive (which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?


I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Subjectively disagree that he's playing differently than last game. That doesn't automatically or even likely make him scum in my eyes though. Far too many people are willingly going along with the executioner routine and not showing any autonomy whatsoever in their decisions of who/when to vote in this game. Two people who are blindly being town-read for rather minimal reasons don't get to dictate who the "dueling wagons" are, who you're allowed to vote for, or if/when you're allowed to declare intent to hammer. And yet, here we are. It's YOUR vote and not someone else's. This isn't directed exclusively at you, by the way, furtive.

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

You had him as your highest town-read when he had three posts though: an RVS vote, post 109, and post 182. I'm not questioning your read changing. Everyone SHOULD constantly be reassessing their reads. I'm questioning how those two posts went from making him your highest town read to being "easy posts for anyone to make/limited in its usefulness". He needs to start posting more, new or not. I'm going to point out here that you're agreeing with PPP being a scumread for two paragraphs from now.

Alianna

: Soon to be replaced. I think it's best to say null for that reason. I would have said town if I had to guess, however their townread on Somnus in 216 stood out to me, because they said 'similar reasons to Turtle' and I didn't think Somnus had earned it in the same way. But they're being replaced, so in the null range.

See above ^

PimPestPlay

: n00b. If they are mafia they are playing very level zero, and it would be daring to play this way as mafia, but thinking about this is just WIFOM. They are very self aware in their newness and none of their reads/analyses are grounded in anything other than either randomness, peer pressure, or bizarre assumptions/leaps of logic. In 421 they use the word 'should' which is throwing me off, as town is surely more likely to think in this way - we are all working together etc. I scumread them previously for doing things without reason, but that could just as easily be nooby town. One thing's for sure: this player is never getting nightkilled. I've never been a fan of the Darwinian 'vote out unhelpful players though'. I think I'll revise this read back to null.

Agree about the WIFOM. I don't agree that his two votes (both on me) have been random. One was an OMGUS/retaliation vote and one he admitted he's essentially doing what he's told/what is popular. I agree with the peer pressure, but as always, it should come down to what the motivation behind that peer pressure is. More importantly though, two paragraphs ago, you "agreed that he's a scum-read". In fact, less than 12 hours before this reads-list, you went from declaring intent to hammer marci, to rather going with PPP, to putting him at null.

Somnus

: A lot of posts, 1 readslist. That one readslist in 331 is all I really have to go on. They have pinned the two 'newbie' players as scumleans which I don't like. Despite being a high frequency poster, I haven't been townreading Somnus this game, and having read through Newbie 2087 I can't see much difference in their play this game. I'm giving Somnus a null/scum lean here.

Up until this post that I'm replying to, everyone had a grand total of 0-1 readslists. People don't usually type up a fully detailed readslist every day or two. As far as I can tell, even with this post, only 2 people have done a full readslist twice and a few players still have zero. Why does the experience of who I have in my current/subject to change scum-reads list matter? At the time, I also had two newbie players as my only two town reads. So if you're implying that I'm buddying with experienced players and picking on newer players, shouldn't I have several experienced players as town-leans (I currently have zero of them as town-leans, which obviously can't be the correct solve). Why is this even remotely relevant? How does this game in any way, shape, or form, look like how I played in Newbie 2087? I think they look worlds apart, but I'm biased.

Marcistar

: I can't get over their reluctance to voice thoughts on the game despite being on the brink of elimination. They don't seem to have any kind of agenda however, and like Lukewarm says, they aren't desperately self-preserving (e.g. by voting for Somnus). It's still a scum-lean from me.

I agree, and it's been frustrating, regardless of whether they're on the brink of elimination or not. It's hard to tell whether it's coming from unmotivated town or from scum, but ultimately, it all leads to the same anti-town results. I'm still waiting for responses to a couple of questions posed to her before I can reach a better conclusion...

...But if this is a legit reads list and not one made to look like a legit reads list, this is where your vote should be then, yeah?

Why is it not? Walk me through the progression of:

-Declaring intent to hammer marci

-Being scolded and told you're not allowed to touch the hammer (I'm only wording it this way because I know you're not the type to get offended by me making a harmless joke)

-Saying you'd rather vote for PimpestPlay but that you're both excited/optimistic that Marci is likely mafia

-Presumably going to bed

-Waking up and typing a reads-list and then placing a vote elsewhere, while Pimpest is no longer a scum-read (even though he was earlier in this very post). Because that looks really really really really really bad to me. Worse than anything else I may have been nit-picky about here.

To conclude then, my townbloc consists of Lukewarm, BigTerp and TTT.

This leaves a scumpool of Turtle, PPP, Alianna's replacement, Somnus and Marcistar.

My gut read is that Somnus is red. VOTE: Somnus

Just FYI, and not sure if it's just me, but that blue font is REALLY hard to read.

I'm not super convinced that he's scum despite his entrance either. Maybe he can respond to this if/when he sees this,

but I partially get the impression he's just willing to go with the crowd to try and survive

(which will always result in a loss if you're blindly sheeping the wrong person), but at the same time I acknowledge that he and I are the only ones voting for Pimpest currently, so maybe not.

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.

[BigTerp]

I feel like this couldn't be further from the truth. If you look back through the votes, I had the first vote on you, even though my reasoning was admittedly faulty https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13285550. I then moved off of you to Marci, admittedly the 3rd vote and putting them at E-2, but I gave plenty of reasoning. Then over to PPP, which you seem to like, but again with plenty of reasoning of my own https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288112. I'm now back on Marci to get them to E-1, for reasons just explained. I see nothing indicating I'm blindly sheeping anyone or going along with the crowd. Quite the opposite, in fact. Would you like to elaborate?

You seem to STILL be caught up on my entrance. I already addressed that, with you specifically even. Not sure why that is still such an issue for you.

I'm not caught up on it. Furtive mentioned it in his readlist and it was an important part in sorting you. I mentioned that despite it, I'm not super convinced you're scum.

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.[/quote]

Fair enough. Thanks for addressing it.

I'd still like to hear why you think I'm at least partially going along with the crowd.

[BigTerp]

And yes, as far as the blue, I thought about posting here asking what the most readable color would be when replying to specific comments in a wall-post. If you have any recommendations, I'm all ears.

I don't have any specific recommendations, I just noticed how hard that blue was to read. What I do is typically preview my posts to make sure things are being quoted correctly (I routinely screw that up somehow) and to make sure the font color is readable. Easy way to check on something like that.

[BigTerp]

It was more of an unsure gut-feel and still is. Not so much via votes, because as I acknowledged, you could easily just be sheeping one of the two bigger wagons the whole time and you haven't. More like buddying that I could potentially be mistaking as inauthentic. Gut-read that I'm not very confident in.

Thanks for clarifying. This makes more sense to me.

[BigTerp]

You just highlight the next part, hit that quote button, and it will add the tags around it for you. Giving you something like this:

Spoiler:

Updated readslist: In this list I am looking through ISOs and noting what catches my eye.

Lukewarm

: Is giving a lot of analysis which I love. Even if Lukewarm is mafia, they are greatly helping town with their gamesolving, and it doesn't seem fake/unsubstantiated/badly-motivated to me. They chose to scumread Somnus who is not an easy push, rather than just double down on Marcistar/PPP/me, who seemed to be the collective scumreads at the time. Lukewarm is my biggest townread.

Respond to this

BigTerp

: This player gives me a lot of thought. After an awkward start, they have grown into the game. I don't know whether I am happy about this or concerned by it. I do strongly agree with their reads in 436. They are clearly biased towards high frequency posting which I think could be a town tell, as mafia probably wouldn't defer to post count for their reads so openly. BigTerp gets a townread from me. I was on the fence, but they are not in my scumpool anymore.

Respond to this

TTTT

: I am conflicted now. I was townreading them because they seemed to be playing differently to last game, but I don't like that they tried to play executioner in 308. Of those people, I'm not mafia, I don't think Lukewarm is mafia and the other two were just the easiest targets at the time. There hasn't been enough explaining of thoughts from TTTT. Why was it that you drew up a list of 4 potential elims, and how did you arrive at those names?
I still townlean TTTT, but I am less sure after their erratic posting, and I agree they are guilty of LAMIST posting. I disagree that TTTT should be locked town for 415. Mafia can put effort in as well

Respond to this

Mr Turtle

: 98 , 109, 182, 202 and 389 are easy posts for anyone to make - questioning game strategy, questioning reasons for reads. This is limited in its usefulness - yes these questions make other players think and second-guess reads, but this kind of posting does not help me townread Mr Turtle. I would prefer to see more analysis and opinion of their own. As for their reads in 228 and 276 , I like that they gave scumreads first; the most important thing is to find mafia. They gave a fair criticism of my 'defend all wagons' strategy, which I see now is fairly dumb. I agree with these scumreads (of PPP and Marcistar) but not with their reasoning. Turtle wants PPP to be more 'confident' and says they made some posts which Turtle 'didn't get' - those aren't good reasons to scumread someone in my opinion. Turtle's main issue with Marcistar was that they didn't vote for me despite scumcasing me - this could just be Marci's playstyle. I had Turtle as a townread earlier but I think they are back in the null range.

ect

This was helpful for me as well. Thanks!!

[BigTerp]

Intent to hammer Marcistar

.
Have we been here before?

Marcistar has been prodded. But, at this point, I don't care. Hammer away!!

[BigTerp]

Intent to hammer Marcistar

.
Have we been here before?

Marcistar has been prodded. But, at this point, I don't care. Hammer away!!

this is me posting but not unvoting
furtive you should wait for dino to post some thoughts
and then get a claim from marci if you still want to hammer

I've gotta agree with TTTT here. My post about "hammer away" was out of frustration. The game seemed to have screeched to a halt, we had a replacement who has made all of 1 post in 24 hours and Marci was prodded without a post for nearly 2 IRL days and looking like we were in for a 3rd replacement already in day 1.

[BigTerp]

tsk tsk trying to hammer me while im at work? and giving our cutie replacement literally no time to say anything before the hammer?? SMH

if

thry're scum ur giving them and their partner an easy pass to plan out their reads during nightphase

These is one of the more scummy posts I've read this game. I'm still convinced you're scum and believe you are laying low to try and avoid the pressure that's been put on you. You avoided posting for 2 IRL days. If you're work schedule is that tough, I apologize. But you shouldn't have committed to a game like this.

[BigTerp]

Luke and Mr. Turtle have some good recent breakdowns. I know that thorough analysis like that doesn't lock a player as town, but both seem to be genuine and trying to advance the game. It doesn't hurt that a lot of their analysis aligns with my own thoughts, so I've gotta be careful there. Luke has been a pretty strong town lean for me for awhile, but Mr. Turtle's recent post take him from a null/scummy read to a null/town read for me at this point.

I'm going to try and give some more thoughts tomorrow when I have the time. Having to replace the replacement (LOL!!!) has me a bit deflated.

[BigTerp]

that slot is probably scum

Why do you say this?

[BigTerp]

what about me is suspicious B)

Your attitude to getting voted out

A town PR would have claimed by now or at least activly defended themselves which you haven't.

A regular townie would seem more frustrated, you're way too chill, and would probably be trying to get out a readlist or something so that when they flip town and people know they could trust them, the town knows what they were thinking and can find the scum.

However you seem way too relaxed and aren't defending yourself enough - like you are trying not to look like scum who don't want to get voted out.

I couldn't agree more with this. Hence my thoughts here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13289965, specifically the first 2 sentences.

[BigTerp]

Intent to hammer Marcistar

not yet
I don't even want a claim from marci yet
UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:

I don't want a hammer or even a claim until Goldie is caught up

Something to keep in mind if Marci flips scum. TTTT has advocated for competing wagons, and the importance of putting pressure on players via votes. We get Marci to E-1, twice, and each time TTTT removes their vote off of Marci.

[BigTerp]

Pretty solid town reads -

TTTT

- Still seems to be playing the game with gusto and really trying to figure things out. Has been my biggest town read since early on.

Luke

- Was an initial scummy read for me, mostly because lack of participation and odd initial posts, but since then they have come in hard and fast with some good analyzations and also seems to be really trying to figure things out. Their post don't seem contrived or forced. Very town like, to my eyes.

Neutral -

Furtiveglance

- Pretty neutral to slight town read here. They seem to be trying to move the game along and not hide in the shadows. The intent to hammer Marci here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13287587 is not something I feel like scum would do this early in the game. Rather something a town aligned player would do to help moves things along, which is much my same feelings.

Somnus

- I'm having a LOT of trouble reading Somnus for whatever reason. At one point I feel like they are being defensive/squirmy, but at the same time as the game goes on it just seems to be their play style. Even though they've been participating more than others, I would like to hear from them moving forward just to help my own reads.

Mr. Turtle

- This has gone from a fairly strong town lean to a neutral/slight scummy lean. Mostly because of lack of posts. The post they are making are decent, in terms of analytics, but they could be defined as contrived or almost forced. Not really seeming to make any bold posts, or trying to mix things up. Most of them are in alignment with others thoughts, which in and of itself isn't necessarily scummy. But mixed with limited posts it gives me pause. They do have Marcistar as their biggest scum read, which aligns with myself. Pretty much the only thing keeping me from being a full scum read here.

Scum reads -

PPP

- Just some really weird posts throughout, and little participation. I don't necessarily contribute post count to alignment, but when a low post count is combined with fluffy type posts I think scum. PPP's are about as fluffy as anyone's. I'm also confused on their vote on Somnus. They don't really put up much of a reasoning for Somnus, scum read Marcistar, ask others to put votes on Marcistar, yet vote Somnus. REALLY odd string of posts here.

Marcistar

- Still my biggest scum read for reasons I've already mentioned. They've done nothing since to change my mind. And PPP's, mostly indirect, interaction with them has me even more suspicious.

Alianna

- Lost cause at this point. Replacement player is only going to muddy the waters here even more. But, that's the way it goes.

Not a whole lot has changed since my last reads list, but here is where I'm at currently.

LukeWarm

- Pretty solid town read. Seems to really be trying to figure things out and get others involved. Posts don't seem forced or contrived, which is typically a scum tell.

Furtiveglance

- Has gone from null/townish to another solid town read. They have many of the same thoughts as myself in regards to reads, which obviously makes them a townish feel. Their pressure on Marci and intent to hammer, twice now, has me really thinking it's not something scum would be doing this early.

Mr. Turtle

- They have gone from null/scum to null/town. The only thing keeping me from reading them as solid town is lack of participation. Although they aren't contributing as much as others, what they do contribute seems pretty solid. I would love to see more from Mr. Turtle!!

TTTT

- Was my biggest town read for the longest time. Has now moved to null. More of a gut feel than anything, but something is not sitting quite right with me on TTTT lately. I mentioned this about the unvotes https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13290850 and maybe that is what has given me a lot of pause.

PPP

- Nothing has changed with my thoughts on PPP.

Somnus

- Has moved to my scummy list. Posting seems forced with little substance. It's like Somnus is here and participating, but just enough to appear as present and participating. Not giving much thought on their own reads nor others. Good strategy for scum, so if they are flipped there isn't much to go own based on their previous post.

Marcistar

- No changes here. Still my biggest scum read. They've done, literally, nothing to even attempt to change my mind here.

GoldfishFromTheMoon

- Nothing here yet. But I do like the early assessment of Marci and the seemingly eagerness to join the game. I hope they continue to participate. This slot was an early scum read for me, so I'm going to have to try hard to be a little unbiased and hear out GoldfishFromTheMoon a bit more before I make any further assessments.

[BigTerp]

UNVOTE:

I don't want a hammer or even a claim until Goldie is caught up

You could vote Somnus in the meantime. Duel wagons were your idea.

Excellent point.

TTTT - Could you elaborate on why you moved your vote off of Marci, twice, when they were at E-1? And more importantly, why didn't you put your vote elsewhere to help with the "dueling wagon" theory you've been advocating for?

[BigTerp]

FYI - After 4:00 pm EST today, I will have limited access. I won't be completely MIA, and will be checking in at least once a day, but my activity/participation will be noticeably less.

[BigTerp]

Why does everyone refuse to look at it from my pov T_T meanies...

You won't show me your pov.

Give detailed reads please!!

THIS!!!!!

[BigTerp]

TTTT - Could you elaborate on why you moved your vote off of Marci, twice, when they were at E-1? And more importantly, why didn't you put your vote elsewhere to help with the "dueling wagon" theory you've been advocating for?

I don't want a hammer or even a claim until we hear more from Goldie
it costs us little to wait 24 hours

Fair enough, and I do not necessarily disagree. But this is the second time you've moved away from Marci at E-1. the first time you were the one to put them at E-1, and then later backed off. Even though I don't disagree with your logic either time, doing it twice is giving me a lot of pause.

I'm not moving to another wagon because I don't want the Marci wagon to collapse I'd others follow
I get how it looks if Marci flips red
not too worried about that
I mean, that's actually a bit helpful right now tbh
and I'll gladly be the hammer when the time comes

PPP made a good point that I overlooked earlier about you advocating for dueling wagons, yet not doing much in that regard when you had the chance. Taking your vote off Marci has as much of a chance of others following as it would if you moved it elsewhere. So, IMO, it didn't really matter where you moved it to, so while taking some pressure off of Marci why not put it elsewhere? Both these things could be perceived as scum trying to look as if they are scum reading their partner, putting votes and pressure on them but then getting nervous and moving off. Marci is my biggest scum read, so naturally your moves here are leaving me with some questions.

With all of that said, I feel like it's MUCH more productive to eliminate Marci here versus anyone else. TTTT can be looked at/addressed further later if needed. For now, we get the biggest bang for our buck by eliminating Marci. Other than waiting on some contribution/insight from GoldfishFromTheMoon, I'm not sure what we're waiting for

[BigTerp]

Both these things could be perceived as scum trying to look as if they are scum reading their partner, putting votes and pressure on them but then getting nervous and moving off.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

Yes. Like I said, both of these things could be perceived as scummy. But they aren't necessarily exclusive either.

[BigTerp]

Some quick thoughts....Goldi has come into a tough spot. The third player in the slot 7+ IRL days into the game. They seem to be giving genuine reads and trying to work through the mess of 25 pages of conversations. It's going to be hard to really get a decent read on them at this point, IMO. I'm encouraged of their effort and an interested in their thoughts/reads but my focus is still elsewhere.

Marci is still the play here. Nothing has changed for me in that regard.

TTTT had drawn some attention from me yesterday, and has since made some posts that have raised my eyebrows even more. I'm on mobile currently so am not going to try and put them all here. But, like I said before, we can address TTT later as Marci is the play today. Eliminating Marci and seeing how she flips helps further shape my thoughts on TTTT.

Marci - you're at E-1. I don't think this wagon is going anywhere. Time for someone to state intent to hammer and for you to claim.

[BigTerp]

Both these things could be perceived as scum trying to look as if they are scum reading their partner, putting votes and pressure on them but then getting nervous and moving off.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

Yes. Like I said, both of these things could be perceived as scummy. But they aren't necessarily exclusive either.

they do seem to be contradictory
like if I'm marci's scum partner I utterly failed because I didn't push a counterwagon
if I'm the partner it would have been better to just straight bus her and let her self-hammer to avoid spew
not unvote to ensure we got some content from a replacement
my unvotes did not prevent her having to claim, as you can now see
my unvotes just delayed it

Fair enough. But the way you played it felt like a smart scum move (not pushing for someone else) and using the excuse of hearing from a replacement. I appreciate the response and in doing so makes me need to go back and look through that progression.

[BigTerp]

I'm really early.

Lukewarm dying is predictable and kinda fitting.

I don't think scum comes out first thing day 2 and says something like this. Lukewarm was one of my biggest town reads day 1, at least I was reading that one right.

I plan to go back through Lukewarm's ISO and see what their thought process was.

[BigTerp]

I'm going to go through ISO's in the evening. The problem is going to be that virtually everyone wanted Marci dead.

Agreed it's going to be tough trying to read much of anyone's intent with Marci. Other than TTTT, I don't remember anyone really against eliminating them. And TTTT's reasoning wasn't even really that they didn't want them eliminated rather they wanted to allow some time for Goldfish to share some thoughts after they replaced in.

I had Marci pegged as 100% scum. In their defense, they did repeatedly say that increased pressure on them only made their interest/participation in the game even less. I've just never played with someone seemingly so out of the game as they were and they not flip scum.

[BigTerp]

Going back through the last few pages it's striking to me that Furtive had announced intent to hammer Marci twice, and never made the move. Even after it was painfully obvious that Marci was going to be the play day 1, Furtive continued to hold out. For some reason, this just isn't sitting well with me.

[BigTerp]

Both these things could be perceived as scum trying to look as if they are scum reading their partner, putting votes and pressure on them but then getting nervous and moving off.

so it's scummy because I'm trying to save Marci from getting elim'd?
but it's also scummy because I'm not voting another counter wagon?
pick one

Yes. Like I said, both of these things could be perceived as scummy. But they aren't necessarily exclusive either.

they do seem to be contradictory
like if I'm marci's scum partner I utterly failed because I didn't push a counterwagon
if I'm the partner it would have been better to just straight bus her and let her self-hammer to avoid spew
not unvote to ensure we got some content from a replacement
my unvotes did not prevent her having to claim, as you can now see
my unvotes just delayed it

Fair enough. But the way you played it felt like a smart scum move (not pushing for someone else) and using the excuse of hearing from a replacement. I appreciate the response and in doing so makes me need to go back and look through that progression.

Marci flipping town has be really second guessing my read here.

[BigTerp]

Looking back through Luke's ISO, they have some pretty interesting reads. They are known town and I think we should at least evaluate their reads. They were rather back and forth with a few players and hadn't provided a thorough readlist for quite a while, but it seemed to end up something like this

Mr. Turtle - Town
TTTT - Town (with some good analysis that has me even more second guessing my read hear towards the end of day 1)
Goldfish - Town/null
Furtive - Town/null - A LOT of back and forth here. Had Furtive has a solid scum read for a long time then things changed towards the end of day 1 to a town read. Need to go back through this one and I'm starting to question my own reads here.
PPP - Scum/null
BigTerp - Scum/null - After Marci flipped town, I can now see some of my reads that brought Luke to this type of read.
Somnus - Scum - Pretty consistent read here throughout. I'd like to go back through and see what Luke was thinking here.

Obviously, the above isn't gold but Luke is known town and their reads should hold enough value that we go through and evaluate.

[BigTerp]

Lukewarm has died. I will replace Lukewarm with Mr Turtle in my townbloc, as my other townreads (Lukewarm and BigTerp for instance) seem to townread them, and I will stick with my day 1 read on Turtle. They must be in prod range though, I'd like more participation please.

So that means BigTerp, TTTT and Mr Turtle are in my townbloc.

Which leaves a scumpool of Somnus, PPP and GoldfishFromtheMoon.

If Somnus is town, then nothing makes sense anymore. I think Somnus has to be mafia.

VOTE: Somnus

Interesting. You've had your vote here before, and had Somnus as a scummy read most of the game. The ONLY evidence you've presented was this post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13288287 Yet you're so sure that Somnus is scum that if they flip town "then nothing makes sense anymore." I'd like to hear more on your case for Somnus.

[BigTerp]

Case on Somnus: I didn't like their initial readslist in 331, in which they had 4 of us in the null range, and I strongly disagreed with their scumread on BigTerp. They didn't really comment much on the day 1 vote apart from to defend themself, and never voted for BigTerp, instead voting for PPP as a 'prod vote' and never moving it. Lukewarm had Somnus as their number one scumread in 316, then got nightkilled. I'm just not seeing anything that I would see from town players in Somnus - pushing your scumreads being the main thing. For these reasons I think Somnus should be the vote today. I can't really see a PPP/GoldfishfromtheMoon scumteam.

Thanks.

[BigTerp]

I'm really early.

Lukewarm dying is predictable and kinda fitting.

I don't think scum comes out first thing day 2 and says something like this. Lukewarm was one of my biggest town reads day 1, at least I was reading that one right.

I disagree
it's not uncommon for scum to comment on the nightkill with something like "yeah we all saw that coming amirite guys?"

Missed this. But noted.

[BigTerp]

I'm going to go through ISO's in the evening. The problem is going to be that virtually everyone wanted Marci dead.

Agreed it's going to be tough trying to read much of anyone's intent with Marci. Other than TTTT, I don't remember anyone really against eliminating them. And TTTT's reasoning wasn't even really that they didn't want them eliminated rather they wanted to allow some time for Goldfish to share some thoughts after they replaced in.

Actually, I'm going to go back on what I said here. This seems like a nice setup for Somnus to be able to come back later and say a whole lot about nothing. They provided a decent reads list here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13286336 and some more player specific thoughts here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13289758 , but other than that they seemed to have spent the majority of the game either defending themselves or just being active enough to fly under the radar. Either I'm really missing something here and having a terrible read, but I'm not gettting much substance from Somnus as I go back through their ISO.

[BigTerp]

I think PPP might just have some very weird turns of phrase. I can't really see them paired with Somnus. The gamesolve I have right now is Somnus/Gold.

I have zero read on Goldfish currently. Would like to hear more from them as well as Mr. Turtle who has a whole 17 posts 10 IRL days into this game. That seem absurdly low. But even then it feels like it has much more meaningful content that Somuns' 86 posts as I mentioned in my last post.

Mr. Turtle - What's with the such low post count?

[BigTerp]

PPP looking good here

I'm liking PPP more and more as time goes on. They seem to be really trying to figure things out and are not laser focused on pushing for any certain individual.

[BigTerp]

I have zero read on Goldfish currently.

I have a couple reasons to scumread Goldie, neither of which are really her fault:
the double replace outs from newbies in that slot with no discussion beforehand about struggling to keep up with the game
and

Alianna's entrance is how newbie scum often enter games

this read is subject to change based on Goldie's play, but I can't ignore how +scum those two things are

And how do newbie scum typically enter games, in your experience?

[BigTerp]

Some thoughts this morning...........

TTTT

- I'm liking a lot of their recent posts. It's coherent and seems to be in the favor of moving the game along and really trying to figure things out. There have been several posts regarding Mr. Turtle and Furtive that I found myself shaking my head in agreement with.

PPPP

- I've turned the corner with PPP from null/scum to a pretty strong town read. I mentioned it here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294610 and the same seems to be continuing.

Goldfish

- Null. Still a REALLY tough read for me. I had the person in the slot first as scummy, and Goldfish is becoming more of a townish read as the game goes on. But I'm having troubling consolidating the slot and making a read one way or the other.

Somnus

- Null/scummy read. This continues to be a tough one for me. My last read still rings true.

Posting seems forced with little substance. It's like Somnus is here and participating, but just enough to appear as present and participating. Not giving much thought on their own reads nor others. Good strategy for scum, so if they are flipped there isn't much to go own based on their previous post.

Mr. Turtle

- Has gone from null to scum read. TTTT made some interesting and reveling thoughts on TTTT here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295762 and here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295798. Initially I gave Mr. Turtle credit for their informative and seemingly well thought out posts. But TTTT made a good point here that much of it is irrelevant to what was going on in the game.

Furtive

- Scum read. My biggest flip from day one. Had them as strong town along with Luke (pretty much a coin toss between the two as who was most town), but this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294102 and this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294255 has caused a complete 180 for me.


With all of that said, I'm good with any of the last three on my list.

VOTE: Mr.Turtle as I'd like to hear MUCH more from them.

[BigTerp]

BigTerp I still think you're town so I will address your points.

The first is my reluctance to hammer a player who had not claimed their role. I didn't want marcistar to turn out to be a power role and I would look very stupid. They never claimed, so I never hammered - it's as simple as that. I get the feeling you think I didn't hammer so I wouldn't look bad for it, which is not the case at all. If marcistar had said they were VT I would have hammered.

Your second reason for suspecting me is my confidence in my read on Somnus. I can only try to convey how certain I am that Somus is mafia. They have made a lot of posts, yet never pushed any player hard. They seem to defer to the consensus every time they say anything about the game - for instance recently saying they would vote for any generally scumread player in 806. I read through their previous newbie game (when they were mafia) and nothing is different to me this game. Somnus is guilty of active lurking, blending, and being generally agreeable without sticking their neck out. All they have done is question reads without giving their own analysis.

I appreciate the response to my scum reading of you. You've made some valid points that I must consider. But the below is not helping your case with me.

BigTerp I still think you're town so I will address your points.

I will ignore Somnus and Golfish who are only throwing shade at me because I said it was them first, and haven't made any decent points at all.

This just seems like some really scummy posts to me.

[BigTerp]

The aim of the game is to find mafia. I think I'm doing that well, or am at least close. I'm not worried if you think I'm scummy for pointing fingers.

It's not about you pointing fingers, it's about you picking and choosing who to engage with. Not sure why one would do that?

[BigTerp]

Not directly related, but how are you all able to link directly to a specific post with the post number itself as the link, like PPP has done above? The only way I've been able to figure it out is to copy the link to the specific post number but it shows up as a long URL. Trying to figure out how to do it like this....

432

[BigTerp]

Some thoughts this morning...........

TTTT

- I'm liking a lot of their recent posts. It's coherent and seems to be in the favor of moving the game along and really trying to figure things out. There have been several posts regarding Mr. Turtle and Furtive that I found myself shaking my head in agreement with.

PPPP

- I've turned the corner with PPP from null/scum to a pretty strong town read. I mentioned it here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294610 and the same seems to be continuing.

Goldfish

- Null. Still a REALLY tough read for me. I had the person in the slot first as scummy, and Goldfish is becoming more of a townish read as the game goes on. But I'm having troubling consolidating the slot and making a read one way or the other.

Somnus

- Null/scummy read. This continues to be a tough one for me. My last read still rings true.

Posting seems forced with little substance. It's like Somnus is here and participating, but just enough to appear as present and participating. Not giving much thought on their own reads nor others. Good strategy for scum, so if they are flipped there isn't much to go own based on their previous post.

Mr. Turtle

- Has gone from null to scum read. TTTT made some interesting and reveling thoughts on TTTT here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295762 and here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13295798. Initially I gave Mr. Turtle credit for their informative and seemingly well thought out posts. But TTTT made a good point here that much of it is irrelevant to what was going on in the game.

Furtive

- Scum read. My biggest flip from day one. Had them as strong town along with Luke (pretty much a coin toss between the two as who was most town), but this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294102 and this https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294255 has caused a complete 180 for me.


With all of that said, I'm good with any of the last three on my list.

VOTE: Mr.Turtle as I'd like to hear MUCH more from them.

Not much has changed on my thoughts above from yesterday.

There was some talk from Somnus about the large majority on the Marci wagon day 1 here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13296612 that makes them have to look at intent versus where the votes are. Makes sense and goes back to TTTT's preference day 1 to have dueling wagons. In hindsight, it just seemed way to easy to get Marci eliminated. Part of that is on them for they way they played (that's not a knock on Marci, by the way, just the nature of the game) but there is for sure scum somewhere on that wagon which highlights Somnus' post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294064. I've gotta go back myself and look further into this. But I find it interesting that Somnus was asking those questions to highlight themselves here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13296585. I don't really get that. Their vote was on PPP, not Marci. Why pose questions like that when the answer is yourself? It's like your fingering yourself for scum, to show you're not scum. Seems like quite a scummy thing to do!!

[BigTerp]

Back to the dueling wagon idea. I like a Somnus/Turtle one right now. And to a lesser extent Somnus/Furtive.

[BigTerp]

Not really sure I understand the last part, Terp. What I was saying to Pimpest is that I would have had the most to gain by far out of anyone by hopping on the Marci wagon or casing her.

Sorry. My response definitely got a bit wordy and I had trouble articulating my thoughts well.

What I meant was you present ideas on why something would be scummy only to use that to show that you're not scummy. It's like you're defending yourself for no reason. I've mentioned that before in regards to your play being defensive, and it still rings true.

[BigTerp]

Back to the dueling wagon idea. I like a Somnus/Turtle one right now. And to a lesser extent Somnus/Furtive.

You realize that asking for a wagon on me again today, especially calling for Somnus/furtive, wagons 0 of the people who voted for Marci, correct?

Yes, I'm aware. That's part of the reason I prefer a Somnus/Furtive wagon less than a Turtle/Somnus wagon. But I believe we get more info from a Somnus/Furtive wagon versus a Turtle/Furtive one. Hence why I did not present the last one (Turtle/Furtive) as an option I would currently like to see.

[BigTerp]

Turtle is coasting
hasn't actually pushed anyone
isn't trying to sort anyone
I need somebody, anybody, who disagrees with me to tell me why I'm wrong

I think you're wrong, low frequency posting doesn't equal mafia. Somnus is much more suspicious, his defence now is that he could have pushed marci but didn't?
Somnus is a much better vote.

I don't necessarily disagree with TTTT here. I also don't think he's saying that low frequency posting equals mafia. It's more of the same reasons he has mentioned and laid out before. Pretty consistent stuff from TTTT in regards to Turtle lately.

And, like I've already said, I'd like to see a Somnus/Turtle dueling wagons. Should help generate some conversation and movement that might be telling.

[BigTerp]

low frequency posting doesn't equal mafia

not what I said

Like I thought.

[BigTerp]

I'm not going to just assume a day1 miselim has to have had scum onboard
it's rare to see an all town miselim
but it happens

Fair enough.

[BigTerp]

Goldfish - A slot that is incredibly hedgy. I don't like 571 & 585. The first has seemingly random one-liners such as "this post freaks me out" or "I find this very interesting". Why is this progressing the game?
While ("

I don't want to take to strong a stance because I think I'm possibly wrong and I don't want to throw the game.

") not wanting to throw the game is admirable, none of their stances have been "too strong". The stance they follow up with is literally "let's eliminate the leading wagon and most widely scum-read player marcistar" with an added "(but I do think she is scum)" to assure us that they aren't trying to eliminate one of their town-reads.

They also keep on apologizing and not committing "(sorry I know you didn't want a wall of text)", "Tentative reads (I don't trust all these yet)" & "so here is my explaining (and I get this sounds bad)". This just feels so awkward. "I know this looks bad but I'm going to put my vote back on Marci" -> the constant focus on "this sounds/looks bad" makes me believe that they're hyper-focusing on their image and how they need to appear towny.

577 feels eh. Especially when followed by 579. It's as if they're trying to prove "I'm not scum, watch me vote the scummiest player!".

The reads list in 583 is okay. It's nothing ground-breaking or alignment-indicative either way. I don't blame them, they subbed into end of day. But nothing new, still the same hedginess and whatever "

I visualise him as Watson from the BBC Sherlock TV show because of the profile pic, which biases me toward thinking he is town.

" is.

I get that they subbed into a difficult position, but I feel like this is more likely newb!scum than newb!town. Newb!town knows that they are 100% town and while not confident in their reads, they generally seem less worried and awkward than Goldfish here. To me this looks like Goldfish very badly wanted to get on people's good side by being apolegetic and going with the flow.

Sadly, it's late. I'll continue their ISO as soon as I can. I didn't make it past post #10 of their ISO yet, so maybe something changes. But until then VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon for the self-conscious entrance.

A lot of interesting points here.

[BigTerp]

And FYI, I'll be V/LA from 3/23 until 3/28 with VERY limited internet access. Not sure if it was necessary, or what it even does, but I put that info. in the V/LA section of my profile control panel.

[BigTerp]

Somnus and PPP, since you guys are around I noticed neither of you have votes on anyone. Any reason in particular why your holding out on that?

[BigTerp]

Back to the dueling wagon idea. I like a Somnus/Turtle one right now. And to a lesser extent Somnus/Furtive.

We've got three votes outstanding. I'd like to see some movement from them, or where votes are currently, to get some more discussions going. Things seem to have gotten stale pretty quickly. For me, that's usually a sign that scum is comfortable where things are.

I'll reiterate my desire for a Turtle/Somnus wagon or a Somnus/Furtive wagon.

[BigTerp]

I can't see Somnus and PPP as a pair. The mafia team is therefore Somnus/GoldfishFromtheMoon, or PPP/Goldfish.

I've gotta agree that it's not Somnus/PPP. The back and forth and ongoing conversation about those 4 questions from awhile ago have seemed never ending. I can't imagine a scum team continuing on and on about something like that, especially amongst themselves. If it's one, I'd be highly surprised if it was also the other.

[BigTerp]

We've got three votes outstanding. I'd like to see some movement from them, or where votes are currently, to get some more discussions going. Things seem to have gotten stale pretty quickly. For me, that's usually a sign that scum is comfortable where things are.

Never elim BigTerp

if he is scum he deserves to win
but he isn't scum

What makes you so certain?

[BigTerp]

If we get to the point of having to replace goldfish, I'm 100% behind an elimination there before replacement. I don't think I can handle yet another replacement in that same slot.

If not, my previous wagon(s) I still stand behind.

[BigTerp]

In all seriousness, I think we need a Somnus vote today rather than a Turtle vote. Turtle is very town to me. I can see Somnus/Gold or maybe Somnus/TTTT. BigTerp and Turtle pls vote for Somnus if you think I am town

I'm not convinced your town. However, I have Somnus on both of my "wagon lists". I could be convinced to go there versus turtle. It would certainly help clear some things up in my eyes in regards to you.

[BigTerp]

Somnus to E-1

VOTE: Somnus

[BigTerp]

GG Somnus. Thanks for tolerating my sketchy entrance!! Took a little while to get into a groove.

[BigTerp]

Great game everyone. Thanks for playing and I hope that you enjoyed it.

It was the first game I modded in a long time so I hope that I did the necessary. I'll try to moderate a game in the mini-theme queue in the next 20 days and you're all invited ^.^

Thanks. I had fun!!

[BigTerp]

I was thinking it was TTTT at the end, I won't lie.

Same!!

[BigTerp]

BigTerp tysm for saving me 2 nights in a row. I was trying to pretend I had a guilty on Somnus a bit

It was literally a coin toss between you and Luke night 1. Was kicking myself tell hard after I saw like was NK'd.

Your persistence on Somnus day 2 and the fact I had TTTT pegged as his partner is what made me want to protect you again. TTTT's post here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13298148 where he was proclaiming how town I was felt like a ploy to get me protected at night so mafia could kill the player they wanted. I'm my mind it was Furtive.