Mini Normal 2041 [Game Over]

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: DDL

[OkaPoka]

i need gamma to tell me if A50 v Sephiroth was a normal emotional reaction from a50 because if AP is truly like a persona account then i know nothing about A50

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: PenguinPower

VC wise this would make the most sense in that I think he has a pretty high scum equity with how things transpired yesterday + gives the most information with wagon dynamics cuz he got run up to L1 and had a sizeable mech-town following on his wagon.

[OkaPoka]

VOTE COUNT 1.19

PenguinPower (6)

- Kokichi Oma, DVa, Gamma Emerald, Sephiroth, Tchill13, BrightEyedFish

Tchill13 (4)

- OkaPoka, Joey_, Almost50, Nako

Nako(2)

- DrDolittle, Mewtaph

BrightEyedFish (1)

- PenguinPower

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-11-12 11:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- DrDolittle is v/la until Friday
- i missed the pagetop

we have you at L1 here yet your wagon interestingly dissolved rather than having scum hard push you if you are town.

kokichi, tchill, bef all town so worst case scenario would be that Dva, gamma, sephiroth are the scumteam if you are town

but i dont see why scum wouldn't push you harder at L1 if your town, thus for the sake of me wanting to see whether we might have a high scum concentration right there or your scum, i want to have ur flip.

[OkaPoka]

6 people have claimed PR?

i dont think so?
3 by my count, others are hypo

[OkaPoka]

i think dva was theorizing if we had vig(who shot bef), nako hypo claim is real claim, my hypo claim is real game etc.

[OkaPoka]

Interesting to note:
We have PP wagon hit L1, then A50 gives intent to hammer to force out a claim (never follows through as ->
We hit an A50 emotional "break", then Sephiroth votes A50, putting down Penguin to L2.
Wagon remains stagnant, and essentially DDL starts a new counterwagon on BEF.
But the BEF (town) wagon gains steam as a counterwagon from non PP wagon-ers, also gains steam extremely quickly.
Only Sephiroth is a former PP wagoner.
Joey_ and Dva have a quick conversation, then Dva initiates a swap to tchill, PP wagon-ers go directly to Tchill.
The breaking point I believe is when Nako, a BEF wagoner switches to l1 Tchill. Literally any swap would have switched the momentum of the wagons from either BEF or Tchill, scum can be pretty content here.
and then we have the whole tchill mess.
But both BEF and tchill are town, so its kinda hard to analyze here.

[OkaPoka]

a couple of things.
1) I'm giving a50 benefit of the doubt. there's no sense in even discussing lynching a claimed town investigative role that is not counterclaimed.
2) Oka:"We have PP wagon hit L1, then A50 gives intent to hammer to force out a claim (never follows through as ->" a50 never intended to vote. the hammer threat was empty. plus you should recall that only 2/3 of the votes on PP at that time were "serious votes". what you are pushing in your scenario is misleading.

ok lets argue semantics because you want to

a50's intent wasn't empty at first, he only revealed his true motivations later, but the point is that there was a moment in which he gave intent with the full weight of it and A50 had no reason to reveal his motivations until Seph dragged it out of him. The threat of hammer was there, PP seemed like a very possible lynch at that moment still.

therefore by arguing that my scenario is misleading, is misleading to everyone else

ok so which 1/3 of the votes in your mind weren't serious votes?

lets go through each person
-> kokichi literally starter of the wagon and pusher of it so
-> dva, makes a post after a50 gives intent to hammer and doesn't immediately unvote, so pretty serious then, no? implication of inaction makes it so that she is willing to let this proceed, probs more but lazy
->gamma in post

Spoiler: 1144

I am ok with this.
VOTE: chill

EBWOP That's L-2

Speed and counterwagon
Though the composition actually looks alright
Idk what deadline has to do with it

I'm not so sure now. My top 2 scum reads are on my 3rd scum read's wagon. Maybe they are trying to help PP.
I don't know, but maybe a little L-1 can push us along further.

VOTE: PenguinPower

SSS CCC UUU MMM

@Gamma: Just vote Tchill. Trust me.

I’d rather vote PP rn

declares that he prefers a PP wagon, so pretty serious here
-> sephiroth gets grilled for his hardline position on PP by a50, also doesn't unvote immediately, requires him to enter a discussion with A50 before changing off. Pretty serious. You can read for yourself
-> tchill arguably can be not serious vote, but the fact of the matter is that he is willing to lynch anyone makes him still an equal vote on PP, he isn't going to leave the wagon unless it loses momentum thus the L1 pressure is all the same
-> BEF has inaction thing + he outright states that he does it for preservation of himself, he isn't going to leave the PP wagon. threat still exists

who isn't serious about lynching PP there?

[OkaPoka]

But this is all a distraction.

PP wagon is suspcious because if he is green, its a ridicolously easy lynch to sell and scum who pushes it or join the wagon has good cover as
1) Mason kokichi is pushing it
2) Tchill and BEF both joined for crappy and opportunistic reasons, but were intent on seeing the lynch through

thus only explanation in my mind is that either:
PP town, scum tapped their resources pretty heavily already meaning high scum concentration in Gamma, Seph, Dva, with wildcards being A50/nako so they are worried about a huge incrimination
PP scum, scum see a better alternative lynch that is sellable in tchill/bef

or im wrong

but i think my scenarios are most reasonable explanations for PP, thus i want a PP flip.

[OkaPoka]

Can someone provide an alternative explanation to the PP wagon transpiring the way it did?

[OkaPoka]

so I assume neither of you two can provide a reasonable alternative to the two alternatives i have thrown out there?

[OkaPoka]

oh yeah and joey_ and kokichi shouldn't respond to my above question until everyone else in town has because otherwise the well will be poisoned

ty

[OkaPoka]

idea shortened with only bare bones on it:

PP town = we have at least two scum on PP wagon

PP scum = PP scum

thus lynch PP for best odds at winning

[OkaPoka]

I guess that's possible and opens some other doors, but do you think that your explanation is more likely than my explanation(s)?

[OkaPoka]

I'd think worst case scenario there would be your wagon would fail, town would find a new wagon on real scum if your town here.

Which is why I don't think your scenario is as likely because its less optimal to do as scum and its easier and better just to push you through unless there was some reason stopping them ie they are on the wagon and felt as if they couldn't actually pull it off

I think the only way your scenario ends up working is if we have 3 Deep scum that have no chance of getting lynched yesterday.

[OkaPoka]

I'm still digesting what PP's theory means and whether scum would think that far ahead vs acting instinctively to promote their wincon.

[OkaPoka]

A50, imo you should be brain dumping ideas rn because if you get nk'd which is likely if you are GS, then we can't pick your brain anymore.

[OkaPoka]

I haven't combed through it but looking purely at the VCs, he never reached L1 and it was early so the lack of pressure on the DDL wagon makes wagon analysis hard. I can try and go through it later but I can see scum playing in any fashion they choose in response to the DDL wagon.

[OkaPoka]

UNVOTE:

I'll see how pissed I am and post then in an hour

[OkaPoka]

I'm just going to wait for the replacement before I post

[OkaPoka]

ddl gets a wagon
bef gets a wagon
i drive a wagon on kokichi
gets to l1
kokichi claims mason with joey

i cri because i feel like an idiot

chaos

pp gets a wagon to l1

a50 gets in a tussle with sephiroth and mewtaph, pretty emotional

pp wagon dissipates, bef and tchill wagon emerges

tchill gets lynched because he doesn't want to play d1, does some shenanigans with role claiming and retraction

and then bef gets killed

d2:
i tri hypoclaiming, get flamed
seph wagon emerges, gets to l1 i think? but then it disappears and then mewtaph becomes leading wagon
a50 gets mad again, hardclaims gs but roleblocked or mew is ascetic
some people wagon me for various reasons
i do some wagon analysis and come to the conclusion that PP is best lynch for today
then joey says jk not masons lol

you should take your time and read the game tho. I'm discarding everything and working from scratch because i built my framework in this game from the idea that kokichi and joey were mason buddies

@skitter im not voting pp or anyone k thx

fixed!

[OkaPoka]

Wait.

Why didn't scum shoot kokichi or joey?

[OkaPoka]

sorry ive been inactive lately, just feeling demotivated to reread

that being said i feel like the response to my pp analysis was very weak in comparison to tchill and kokichi. tchill was town, im leaning town on kokichi, so maybe pp is actually scum/i might be onto something with high scum thing that scum just want to ignore? maybe?

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: ddl

L1 vote

yes im blatantly sheeping townreads because i cant think for myself

[OkaPoka]

relevant ones in order of towniness:

nako
kokichi
dva

a50 im not sure anymore

[OkaPoka]

DDL and PP are my top 2 choices for lynch today, i still think im on to something with PP theory even if PP is town.

[OkaPoka]

technically the truth i guess

[OkaPoka]

i have given tldrs on my pp theory.

[OkaPoka]

kokichi town because joey my top townread and by association i think kokichi is town.

i don't see scum making a mason gambit at l1. maybe a cop claim or doc claim.

i was pushing for PP for a couple days Mew. but its a lot of work and effort to try and lead a wagon on someone while fighting bs. After a certain point of fighting with people, pushing a wagon that gets little reception, and having the premise of the way you view the game be broken, then maybe I'm just insane.

anyways ddl never answered my question about people not being serious about lynching PP.

[OkaPoka]

a couple of things.
1) I'm giving a50 benefit of the doubt. there's no sense in even discussing lynching a claimed town investigative role that is not counterclaimed.
2) Oka:"We have PP wagon hit L1, then A50 gives intent to hammer to force out a claim (never follows through as ->" a50 never intended to vote. the hammer threat was empty. plus you should recall that only 2/3 of the votes on PP at that time were "serious votes". what you are pushing in your scenario is misleading.

narrative you are pushing here implies PP was never going to get lynched ? yet seems like to me that BEF and Tchill were perfectly ok with lynching PP and also A50 did not reveal his hammer threat was empty until sephiroth forced it out of him, thus PP was a perfectly easy and sellable lynch?

[OkaPoka]

what are you talking about? Are you dense on purpose? The wagon was clearly stalling, seph was going to unvote, a50's didn't plan to hammer, and tchill and bef were willing to switch to any other wagon. all these statements are true. whats your narrative?

lmao ok

lets refute this baby so we can hammer you because im tired of this nonsense

]what are you talking about? Are you dense on purpose?

nice attack on character to open things up

The wagon was clearly stalling,

VOTE COUNT 1.14

BrightEyedFish (3)

- Mewtaph, PenguinPower, OkaPoka

OkapOka (1)

- Sephiroth

Tchill13 (1)

- Dva

Nako(1)

- DrDolittle

DrDolittle (1)

- Gamma Emerald

Kokichi Oma (1)

- Tchill13

Mewtaph (1)

- Nako

Not Voting (4)

- Joey_, BrightEyedFish, Almost50, Kokichi Oma

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-11-12 11:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Sephiroth is v/la until Tuesday
- DrDolittle is v/la until Friday

note how nobody is voting PP here, that was posted on Nov 6,2018 12:04 A.M. (my time). You can check skitter's isos for verification

VOTE COUNT 1.15

BrightEyedFish (4)

- Mewtaph, PenguinPower, OkaPoka, Almost50

PenguinPower (3)

- Kokichi Oma, DVa, Nako

Nako(2)

- DrDolittle, BrightEyedFish

OkapOka (1)

- Sephiroth

DrDolittle (1)

- Gamma Emerald

Kokichi Oma (1)

- Tchill13

Not Voting (1)

- Joey_

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-11-12 11:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- Sephiroth is v/la until Tuesday
- DrDolittle is v/la until Friday

this is 11 hours later, PP gets three votes.

9 hours after that he has 5 votes.

there is a bunch of shuffling with the wagon but PP remains at L2.

Speed and counterwagon
Though the composition actually looks alright
Idk what deadline has to do with it

I'm not so sure now. My top 2 scum reads are on my 3rd scum read's wagon. Maybe they are trying to help PP.
I don't know, but maybe a little L-1 can push us along further.

VOTE: PenguinPower

then this happens. check bef iso for timestamps, but basically in less than two real life days (a bit more than one day) PP goes from no votes to L1.
oh and then A50 hits up the intent to hammer 6 hours after BEF gives L1.
So where is the clear stall of the wagon?
?
?
?

next on the docket:

seph was going to unvote

literally not true. He unvoted post A50 giving intent to hammer and post argument. Sephiroth pretty clearly wanted to wagon PP for info and had reasons for not townreading PP beforehand. He only changed to A50 after A50 got mad. Pressure on PP was still there when Seph was voting, all the way up until A50 "had an emotional breakdown."

a50's didn't plan to hammer

First PP was at L1 so anyone at anytime could have given their own intent to hammer if they felt like it to push it along.
Second, there was no indication on the second time A50 gave intent to hammer that he wasn't being serious until later he revealed it.

and tchill and bef were willing to switch to any other wagon

and being at l1 is being at l1. Sure they could have swapped but it doesn't undermine anything I've said about PP. PP was still very much at the threat of a hammer and in fact the desire/eagerness of tchill and bef to get someone lynched only solidifies my theory.


PP was a very viable lynch and if he flipped town there would have been very easy cover for scum to use for the lynch.
We have Tchill and BEF being lazy voters who were blatantly just voting out of apathy or self preservation instincts. If PP flips town and we go after PP wagoners, those two are the easiest lynches to sell ever as scum.

my narrative is the same thing ive been posting over and over. either pp is scum or we had a lot of scum already on his wagon who couldn't push it all the way through. don't know whats so hard to understand and why you want to die on this hill.

[OkaPoka]

did you just straight out attack my character and fail to refute a single a point i just made?

wtf

[OkaPoka]

@Seph: Seriously now, what IS the purpose of your vote on PP? You don't want him to claim, and you don't want to move off him. You do agree that we don't have to use the full deadline, but you won't do anything to change the fact that we are indeed exhausting all the time we have for no good reason and with no real revenue. What's your plan here? Are you hoping for a lol!hammer w.o. a claim, so you can accuse the poor player who inadvertently placed it of being scum, perhaps? Or maybe you are waiting for a scum partner to lay the hammer and then you will protect them by saying they didn't realize it was hammer and still accuse >me< of rolefishing???

See? too many possibilities, none of them is good. And you're not even explaining your stance (about being on PP wagon but not wanting him to claim). So I ask again: WHAT is the purpose of your vote being on PP??

@PP: Intent to bloody HAMMER. CLAIM PLEASE.

Wagons are good for information and he's one of my scum reads. I don't need any further reason to have my vote on him and I don't think any of the conjecture you threw at the wall above changes that for me. I agree that we don't have to use the full deadline but that doesn't mean I want to do what you are doing, which appears to be trying to rush any wagon towards a claim even if you think the player is town. You know damn well its anti town as fuck to be calling intent to hammer and demanding a claim from one of your town reads. The fact that you need to paint this as black and white, like we can only lynch someone immediately or we can wait til the end of deadline and get a lolhammer is absurd. Is there no world in which you think its possible for an organic lynch to appear within the four days we have remaining? Is there no world in which the wagon on PP actually gives us valid information about other slots, outside of demanding a premature claim? Stop trying to paint this as a dichotomy between deadline lynch and lolhammer. Thats just not reality and you know it.

My point is that YOUR stance is extremely scummy since you consider him to be town. Why do you want to force a claim from someone you think is town? Why would you vote him and give intent to hammer if you think he is town rather than trying to move us towards a different wagon WITHOUT him claiming? There is no world in which your stance towards PP and his wagon comes from a town mindset.

[OkaPoka]

which came after

@Seph: Seriously now, what IS the purpose of your vote on PP? You don't want him to claim, and you don't want to move off him. You do agree that we don't have to use the full deadline, but you won't do anything to change the fact that we are indeed exhausting all the time we have for no good reason and with no real revenue. What's your plan here? Are you hoping for a lol!hammer w.o. a claim, so you can accuse the poor player who inadvertently placed it of being scum, perhaps? Or maybe you are waiting for a scum partner to lay the hammer and then you will protect them by saying they didn't realize it was hammer and still accuse >me< of rolefishing???

See? too many possibilities, none of them is good. And you're not even explaining your stance (about being on PP wagon but not wanting him to claim). So I ask again: WHAT is the purpose of your vote being on PP??

@PP: Intent to bloody HAMMER. CLAIM PLEASE.

[OkaPoka]

it means that PP had a period of time in which he was at l1 and intent to hammer him was legit?

1106 means that Seph was voting PP and was serious about it?

Do you know what chewbacca defense is? If so can you link me what you think I'm chewbaccai'ing?

[OkaPoka]

you can still try and argue that the wagon was stalling and you can argue how im employing the chewbacca defense while you are waiting for sephiroth

[OkaPoka]

You can't be serious with that analogy.

I'm sheeping my townreads on you and building off my previous scumread of you. My argument on your claim is not irrelevant because you are just making things up and attacking me for who I am rather than what I am arguing for. There's no need for that as town, but when you are painted into a logical corner then the only way out is to attack me personally.

What garbage have I cluttered the thread with? If you are going to content police then content police, but you are only trying to content police me, and only content police things that you specifically disagree with and file that as garbage.

My arguments are not irrelevant, they are directly relevant. Just because they are framed on the premise of PP does not mean I can't develop reads on people other than PP. Your attempt to destroy my credibility on PP is a factor on why I'm scumreading you.

I guess the wagon stalled? But your quote and timeline does not match the timeframe I'm focused on in my analysis. I'm focused on when it grew and got to L1 with the whole intent to hammer thing. But also the lack of enthusiasm for the wagon suggests to me that either scum was tapped on the push or PP is scum and scum didn't want to rejuvenate the game. You are kinda contributing to my case here.

But you should for a fact, know that I'm focused on the build up part. I've been repeating that over and over to you, my quotes and stuff are from that period of growth. That's the important part here. PP was an easy lynch to sell for scum, so why didn't scum go ahead an push it? Why did we end up with two counterwagons of both town? That's the fundamental question I'm posing for people to answer.

[OkaPoka]

Like even PP agrees that how his wagon formed and dissipated was sus and there needs to be questions that need to be answered. But you seem content in denying it altogether. Once again, you aren't engaging in my questions or my analysis, rather you are focused on trying to steer the conversation away from what this PP thing all means and trying to attack me at all costs.

[OkaPoka]

did DDL just avoid a roleclaim?

[OkaPoka]

UNVOTE:

who did you jail?

[OkaPoka]

yes

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: penguinpower

Why didn't you stop the Mew thing?

[OkaPoka]

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

[OkaPoka]

Remember, if you are going to follow me onto PP then we have to follow through with everything that it entails, including discussing who were the most likely scum on PP wagon if he flips town. This path is probably a lot more work because we need to think through wagon dynamics and context behind how his wagon rose and fell, but I think it'll lead to the most scum lynches.

[OkaPoka]

I think A50 is pretty much confirmed GS at this point, barring a scenario of DDL + A50 scumteam which is unlikely and very gusty because double incriminating yourself as scum right now is way too risky.

The way I see the DDL slot is it will resolve itself pretty much in 1 ~ 2 days. Maybe he is lying, but I don't see much we can gain from flipping DDL right now because a town flip gets us nowhere, so we have to be extremely sure of scum DDL.

[OkaPoka]

@gamma, you are part of NRG right? What would a balanced setup look like to you ?

[OkaPoka]

Experienced close setup players, how often do we have GS + no town members with guns?

[OkaPoka]

PP is due for a prod very soon. Hopefully he can brain dump for us for how he viewed the PP wagon and who he felt stood out during the whole thing.

[OkaPoka]

are mastina/implosion creative designers? as in:

what if we had a vig/jk/gs vs mafiadoctor/roleblocker(?) or maf goon/maf goon or something similar

gs has one false positive and one false negative. mafia doctor can protect its own from vig shot. maybe even throw a tracker/watcher on town in there for more wifom. lots of pr action, lots of roleblocking, lots of saving.

I don't know if that's possible/even a balanced setup but its "interesting" design.

[OkaPoka]

everybody at l1 this game has either not claimed or claimed a pr lol

[OkaPoka]

@nako is there no doubt in your mind that DDL is scum?

[OkaPoka]

DDL needs to brain dump is entire thought process on his jailing and reveal any potential crumbs when he makes his next post please.

[OkaPoka]

hey wait ddl why are you townreading me

[OkaPoka]

It's still possible that a50 can be maf gunsmith right?

Also nako I have made my reasons for voting pp. But to vote ddl I'd either need a game plan in the case he flips town or so little doubt in town jk ddl where a contingency isn't needed.

[OkaPoka]

i was just looking at another game where there was a mafia gunsmith so thats why i threw it out there

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77190

or maybe rolecop?

im operating completely under the assumption that a vig who shot BEF would have outed themselves already

[OkaPoka]

Because if vig shot BEF and didn't out himself, then vig is kinda just letting ourselves dig pits of useless analysis and wifom to make the lynch.

I have no idea why scum would kill BEF, I can only assume pr hunting or wifom.

[OkaPoka]

Joey slot being willing to vote kokichi slot makes me doubt my kokichi townread now tho. Kokichi townread only exists because I trust joey slot.

Anyways we have a lot of questions that need to be resolved.

Kokichi - Joey masonry shenanigans

A50 - town invest or scum invest

DDL - town rb or scum rb

and PP alignment, whether we actually had three townies be final wagons on end of D1.

[OkaPoka]

I don't know enough about everybody's scum game here to make that guess

[OkaPoka]

was that a yolo hammer

[OkaPoka]

A50 has done it before as scum on AP in PYP

if this flips town though then everyone needs to chime in a lot tomorrow otherwise the policy noose is coming

[OkaPoka]

heh

this is a scum flip

look at ddl's posting history

xd

[OkaPoka]

sephiroth scum maybe? has the axis of evil once again decided to full wagon me ?

[OkaPoka]

ive been spamming refresh

A50

time to shine

[OkaPoka]

huh

you weren't roleblocked?

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: mewtaph

[OkaPoka]

yo before we hammer

can we have everyone check in, just in case we have a cop or something with a guilty?

thanks

that was l1 btw

[OkaPoka]

what do you want to discuss?

[OkaPoka]

what about it?

gimme more meat to chew on, im bored and i want to chew

[OkaPoka]

but if dva doesn't want to share she shouldn't share no?

scum have to make the choice whether to have a potentially op pr let loose or continue to let A50 mechanically solve this game

unless they are both scum, which will eventually be revealed by way of flips / ccs (no town prs are flipped yet)

[OkaPoka]

she can talk for herself but if she has an important role, for the sake of hypoclaiming and her flip it might make more sense for her to drop that right now, no?

[OkaPoka]

Sephiroth, PP, and Nako have yet to check in. Let's not be hasty before they check into the thread.

[OkaPoka]

Night actions haven't made much sense from scum. But these are the cards we are dealt with.

[OkaPoka]

I think the N2 kill sucks.

[OkaPoka]

Yeah there is a chance that town rb'd A50 so we should also wait for that I guess.

[OkaPoka]

Mew, if we lynch A50 and he flips Town GS. Are you willing to self vote yourself tomorrow? Is that how sure you are he is scum?

[OkaPoka]

Pretty much as it stands its A50 vs Mew and losing a potential GS is a lot worse than most things Mew could possibly claim.

All of that is independent of personal scumreading fwiw.

[OkaPoka]

Mew, sure.

But I don't know that.

So I'm going to make the best play. Unless you can give a solid argument why you shouldn't be the lynch or have something extremely incriminating on A50, I'm not going to potentially throw this game because I wanted to moral crusade A50.

[OkaPoka]

Well if town roleblocked A50 then they will out themselves because it'll prevent what is essentially a random lynch on you, no?

We can wait for that.

[OkaPoka]

If he checks you again, how does he know you are ascetic or scum have a roleblocker?

If he checks you again and isn't roleblocked, he's going to have to ask himself, why didn't scum roleblock me? Perhaps they wanted a check to show Mafia doc and result in wifom etc.

If he checks you again, he can't clear anyone else.

Just from top of head.

[OkaPoka]

I don't know why you are so insistent on winning me over now when you=town means that a town roleblocker can easily come and check in and end all of this.

[OkaPoka]

But please explain why.

[OkaPoka]

Walking into n2, town A50 can't be sure of this though? After all, DDL claimed JK which kinda implies roleblocker on scum?

[OkaPoka]

Why are you calling it quits and AtE'ing so early?

[OkaPoka]

I'm one person. And you are calling it quits off the opinion of one person? My opinion + A50's opinion are worth 2 votes of the 9 votes left.

There are three people who quite potentially have the power to come in and say that they roleblocked A50 n1 or have a guilty on A50 or have an inno on you.

Blaming night action play and trying to make it a different game than day play is certainly a new angle. I'm curious, what makes following nightplay not in line with what you define as playing the game?

[OkaPoka]

<3

If you are scum here I'll be kinda mad.

Anyways just a reminder, we are all waiting for the others to check in and claim if they have roleblocked A50 n1 / have guilties / have relevant innos

For the sake of town unity lets cool it off in case you are both town here. At least until everyone else arrives. We are still missing pieces of the puzzle (yes I am partially guilty of causing discord but oops)

[OkaPoka]

Mew are you European?

[OkaPoka]

@ALL: Many of you are asking why Dolittle is being wagoned, and I say it's because he's living up to his name. Now unless he tries to act like DrActuallydosomething or DrTryabiyharder I don't think I want to move my vote off him. I find it intriguing he has gone back to the shadows since he started being voted.

this was the post that prompted my comment

[OkaPoka]

tbh I only really care about removing lylo liabilities early when we have nothing to base reads off of, but no i dont think ur a liability.

[OkaPoka]

just sephiroth who needs to check in?

Scum list:

Top picks:
Mew or Sephiroth
Dark Horse:
Gamma

of course if mew is town here then A50 is shooting up to a top pick. Will probably iso skim later to see if i missed anything.

Anyways happy thanksgiving people.

[OkaPoka]

Top picks:
Mew or Sephiroth
Dark Horse:
Gamma

j/w but what happened to your thing with PP?

I'm probably wrong about my assertions so I've moved on from the idea

[OkaPoka]

I'm probably wrong about my assertions

Why?

Because I don't feel like I'm right? I dunno. Sometimes in a game, I just realize maybe that I'm wrong and it would be better to work with the team rather than try and fight for new ideas.

[OkaPoka]

Honestly, my scumreads on them are based on what they are saying/not saying rather than VCA. I can look at VCA, later I guess to revise my theory.

I don't know why town Mew would so quickly turn to AtE'ing and throw the mafia equivalent of a temper tantrum, especially because there were still people who could have bailed him out. I felt like he was trying to guilt me/shame me into supporting him like DDL did.

And ftr there is a difference between calling people out for bad play vs trying to use bad play as a way to be more convincing, if that makes any sense. Calling people out for bad play and voting them is done with the expressed purpose of trying to get them to cooperate with town and doing stuff rather than lurking while Mew was trying to use me being bad as an argument and trying to make me feel bad about it so I would support him, if that makes any sense. One is "utilitarian" while the other is just manipulation.

Then again there are players on this website that just say anyone who disagrees with them are trash, but I don't think Mew was like that at the start of the game so I don't know why he would so radically change.

[OkaPoka]

So I'm destroying the game if town because emotion is present in my posts? If that was a massive crime then why didn't you call out A50 for that when he first did that with Seph? Get real.

Uh that's not what I mean at all.

But lets say I did find A50's post bs, if you guys called him out on it, why do I need to pile on?

[OkaPoka]

Why Seph over Mew?

[OkaPoka]

gamma if you had two dayvigs who would you use them on right now?

[OkaPoka]

Can someone explain how any of Mew's recent posts indicate him being town, or at least more town than Sephiroth?

[OkaPoka]

did sephiroth siteflake?

[OkaPoka]

there isn't much for the rest of us to do other than have sephiroth check in

[OkaPoka]

can you just claim whether you roleblocked a50 n1

[OkaPoka]

or perhaps jailed mew or something, like anything to confirm A50's results

otherwise you are at l1 and probs should claim anyways

[OkaPoka]

No those other actions are trying to see whether we can avoid a Mew vs A50 showdown.

[OkaPoka]

Do you have any crumbs?

[OkaPoka]

@Mew, claim.

[OkaPoka]

We can lynch A50 if Mew flips town is the way I'm seeing it. There is a small chance that Mew is Mafia doc which will put a wrench in my game plan.

[OkaPoka]

I'm thinking we mass claim tomorrow, we lynch Mew today.

[OkaPoka]

sephiroth vote mew with me to speed this process up

[OkaPoka]

time for hypoclaiming r2 ? ? ?

dont actually do it lets discuss

[OkaPoka]

actually what are the merits of not just massclaiming right now

[OkaPoka]

yeah i was thinking that something is off with these claims especially because i feel like mew was implying something as well

anyways

full claims pros and cons discuss?

[OkaPoka]

I don't see why not, wagon is probably going to you next.

[OkaPoka]

nothing makes sense

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: pp

force a claim here next

[OkaPoka]

Can we discuss the idea of a mass claim tho ?

[OkaPoka]

huh?

[OkaPoka]

I hold the belief that we can kinda break every setup with a hypoclaim if we play it right.

[OkaPoka]

I'll qualify: we can put ourselves at a massive advantage in setups that involve prs.

[OkaPoka]

I don't know if this would count as encryption but I could see a possible way in which it benefits town.

Someone would have to create an extremely comprehensive spreadsheet with every possible action and result.

for example if you are cop and you targeted the third player with a return of guilty, you would submit something like 3(target third player) 2 (guilty). But since some roles have more inputs and outputs than others like PGOs vs a JOAT vs multitasker, you would submit a string of numbers based on the spreadsheet like 3512 and thus if you die, by checking the spreadsheet, the 5 and 1 would be ultimately meaningless, but the spreadsheet would say only the first and fourth characters of the string of relevance for cops while it isn't worth it for scum to check out all the possible combinations for outputs because vanilla would just submit random strings etc. Ideally your string would be 100 characters long or more with numbers, symbols, and letters and then specific roles have unique locations that matter. Also in this ideal world, everyone thinks carefully about what they submit so they don't make it obvious with a string like 5AAAAAAAAAA4AAAAAAAA1 vs 5asd39x2nm5a4adm0321 if you know what I mean.

it might be a gray area because its another layer of hypoclaiming with an extra layer of obscurity and the "encryption key" would be your role. but really isnt hypoclaiming just an easier to solve level of encryption.

dont know if that was understandable

and if the above counts as encryption i have a way to bypass it.

someone would have to come up with a way to generate every single role's actions and results and shit.

then write a program in which you input what you actually did so for ex: I am Cop and I targeted Person A, getting the result of guilty.

Then the program would spit that out along with every single role in the game and a randomized actions with a randomized result, jumble up the order.

thus its no longer encryption i believe.

im not good at programming but i think is doable with normal game queue setups


edit: not random as in 50/50 for cop guilties either, it should be weighted

so this is my full theory on how we should do hypoclaiming but then someone already hypoclaimed so i figured whatever ill do hypoclaim because leaving one person out to dry is kinda negative. but this was the idea i had hoped we would get to discuss.

[OkaPoka]

second example wouldn't tho right?

everyone literally hypoclaims hundreds of possibilities

[OkaPoka]

then we shorten the hypoclaim words into one character each, maybe some character mean extra things, mush the characters together, add a couple random fillers etc.

language is encryption kinda amirite

[OkaPoka]

like claim beforehand or after the fact ?

[OkaPoka]

can we also just vote for who to have sephiroth to shoot

[OkaPoka]

so wanna mass claim? if we do we should do it in a specific order tho like scummiest - > towniest

[OkaPoka]

dva > pp > kokichi > gamma > nako > me
: >

[OkaPoka]

because you basically claimed already and none of your hypos targeted pp so i dont think your claim would affect pp but if pp has an investigative type role on you then it can affect you

[OkaPoka]

anything you claim has no effect on what pp can claim while whatever pp can claim has an effect on what you claim.

[OkaPoka]

nvm im dumb i didn't think of tracker/watcher

[OkaPoka]

i guess pp can go first.

[OkaPoka]

Actually, dva can probably go last. She has already limited down what she can claim so yeah

[OkaPoka]

can we have the pp claim earlier

[OkaPoka]

im ok with this order if pp goes first

[OkaPoka]

Nako, is this a moment where i blind sheep you or can we proceed with mass claim route?

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: mewtaph

why wasn't cc'ing DDL your first instinct?

[OkaPoka]

is that l1?

[OkaPoka]

i dont know why he had to throw in the ddl dva thing. i dont see why town wouldn't be like yo ddl im jk or at least try and 1v1 DDL

[OkaPoka]

we should hear more from pp before hammer tho like 100%

[OkaPoka]

we should discuss seph shot?

[OkaPoka]

Can you walk me through what you did exactly and your thought process in being roundabout?

[OkaPoka]

no harm in not letting pp come in and dance a bit

[OkaPoka]

not PP ? what about PP ? PP ?

[OkaPoka]

did u just yolo hammer

[OkaPoka]

oh mb

[OkaPoka]

you can both be right here so there is no need to disunify over what i believe/don't believe. rn my reads are going to be shifting a bunch and exists in a state of high uncertainty until PP does stuff and as such, my reads on a lot of people exists in relation to PP because my old theory is coming back to me thinking it might be right

[OkaPoka]

mew why didn't you directly attack ddl more?

[OkaPoka]

Why did you make a series of posts doing a dance before making your L1 vote? Why weren't you more direct in saying, "I don't believe DDL is JK, and I scumread him hard for it"

[OkaPoka]

So I assume that you prize you living over other townies living as much more important, given that you are willing to sacrifice some integrity in true thoughts for the sake of displaying a progression, even if it is based on lies?

[OkaPoka]

I would assume your first instinct when DDL claimed JK is "Bullshit."

[OkaPoka]

Can you just talk me through your thought process?

What was your first reaction when DDL claimed JK to you? What was running through your head?

[OkaPoka]

I know this might be a tall order, but can you go through each post you made after DDL claimed and up to you voting him and explain why you made that post, perhaps give more context on what you were thinking?

Spoiler: the posts in question

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

If scum doesn't know if I'm ascetic or not, then they can't make the roleblocked A50 claim because they don't actually know if I'm ascetic or not. Whereas if town roleblocked A50, they already know and don't need me to claim ascetic or not.

They can't do it if they didn't roleblock/JK A50 themselves. The claim doesn't make sense for DDL to target A50 because on D1 to DDL he was a null slot.

Depends on how DDL was playing. If he wanted to go for blocking kills that would make sense.

If he wanted to go for blocking kills then he wouldn't have gone for A50. Based on his reads inthread, he would have JKed BEF.

Well, his next likely scum on his list was you, and I don't think you were suspected in thread.

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

this is embarassing but I thought he was scum and likely to make the kill on day end

I guess it is worth asking what about the flip made you change your read of a50 and why you wouldn't use the jk protectively... like why would you assume a50 would be the one to make the kill?

UNVOTE:

Why did you unvote DDL in this post. This is why I don't feel comfortable with ever townreading you in this game.

NVM, read VC wrong. Still, not trusting of your slot and I think a dose of that is healthy enough.

VOTE: DrDolittle
L-1.

[OkaPoka]

ill read all them fancy things later but im basically looking to see if mew's mindset in not being openly anti ddl like asap makes sense soooo yeah if you want to do that for me <3

[OkaPoka]

in no scenario should kokichi be shot before a50 is flipped?

[OkaPoka]

there's a better way to confirm yourself :>

ALSO PP WE ARE STILL ROLECLAIMING SO WHEN YOU GET HERE
claim

[OkaPoka]

u pew pew urself

[OkaPoka]

While we wait for the PP, can we all agree on one claim order like unanimously?

Current proposal:
PP > Kokichi > Gamma > OkaPoka > Nako > Dva

[OkaPoka]

real claim too

i will policy lynch a fake claim

[OkaPoka]

no probably please

[OkaPoka]

so if you later decide to claim something else then we can policy lynch you?

[OkaPoka]

gamma time!

[OkaPoka]

i am vt

nako time

[OkaPoka]

i think we should lynch within the VT pool for today. (because its possible that we have 4 prs but i dont think two prs is possible)

UNVOTE:

thinking of PP but i want to hear from everyone else, what y'all have as your gameplan for today

[OkaPoka]

lynch pp
shoot gamma
jail gamma
gunsmith gamma
voyeur gamma

[OkaPoka]

we can effectively rid scum of nks or force them to confirm

[OkaPoka]

we action dump on you and you voyeur yourself.

[OkaPoka]

im an idiot that does nothing

[OkaPoka]

i think no lynching is dumb

lynch one of gamma, shoot the other

yall can action dump me

[OkaPoka]

after some thought this is best way to go
VOTE: pp

1) we should lynch within the vt claim pool, hopefully more pr info can resolve itself later and I think there has to be at least three town prs in this setup balance wise, which means there should always be one maf in the vt pool
2) i think pp might be scum because old case on wagon dynamics
3) pp's reentrance into this game was really lackluster. he showed up, claimed, made a few jokes and then left.
4) i dont like no lynching here

[OkaPoka]

gamma are u ok with getting pew pew'd


if not

who should get pew pew

[OkaPoka]

A50 claimed kokichi had no gun though. We'd be entering maf doc territory with that suggestion

[OkaPoka]

the way im seeing is that with seph claiming vig, regardless of whether its scum wifom tactic or not, we have two lynches now. so we are playing double day with prs. if we treat this game that way we have a pretty sizable advantage

[OkaPoka]

i think pp might be scum because old case on wagon dynamics

Walk me through this particular one, because when I did my own VCA I deduced he doesn't make sense as Scum with just about anyone.

Note: My VCA was done after the DrD flip. I theorized all possible duos between living players and added DrD as their third. I then went through

my own VCA

, neabing I did my own count, so as to avoid the "vote the unvote" or "unvote then revote" between Mod posted VCs phenomenon. I paid attention to why the vote/unvote was done as well as the wagon size, the existence of a counter wagon, the previously stated reads ..etc. That's how I usually make my VCA.

i havent updated my vca for ddl flip so that might be why but im basing this off of my vca of day1 and assuming kokichi is town here because you got no gun on her.

[OkaPoka]

we are deciding who to shoot and who to kill

[OkaPoka]

I don't think giving Sephiroth discretion is a good idea? We should vote on his target just throwing it out there

[OkaPoka]

I don't know if DDL lynch had anything extremely weird where a VCA is needed to explain what happened tho. If you disagree you can present your ideas but I can see scum bus DDL or not vote DDL, anything works really but I might be misremembering things.

[OkaPoka]

nako votes ddl
a50 does the i like what i see lemme vote ddl
dva votes ddl because this was back when they were still best friends
gamma votes ddl because wagon wooh
bef votes ddl because wagon?

then it stagnates
a50 leaves
bef leaves

honestly this points me to you being scum but im not lynching the pr pool today
but ddl wagon was a meme so i dunno, maybe i need to look deeper

[OkaPoka]

you can present cases on other people, help us find scum or participate in discussions

[OkaPoka]

Do you think that scum is guaranteed to be within the PR pool?

[OkaPoka]

Is GS+JK+Vig+Voyeur that unbalanced? no way for scum to have enough firepower to overcome that combo?

[OkaPoka]

what if there was 4 scum? or 3 + 1(traitor) scum? Firepower vs firepower

[OkaPoka]

either way for me id be lynching in a pool of 4 if i go after pr pool or vt pool (assuming 1 and 1)

so then the next question is, is it possible for there only to be two town PRs?

[OkaPoka]

i think we have to action dump except seph who shoot someone else

which would confirm seph town vig if maf shot voyeur

and if three is impossible then we lynch one pr, shoot the other?

[OkaPoka]

I like my plan.

Lynch PP.

Jail, gs, voyeur me.

Shoot Gamma (?) <- still need to decide here

If voyeur shot and whoever seph shoot is dead, seph confirmed vig. In that case lynch Mew, if town > shoot A50.

If voyeur not dead, only Gamma dead. Lynch Seph.

If voyeur didn't see two actions on me, lynch the person who didn't.

something along these lines

[OkaPoka]

Actually, if there is no chance of 4 prs. PP scum flip should change our plans.

[OkaPoka]

PP scum flip, Seph shoots self, everyone else action dumps me?

[OkaPoka]

mew are u ok with the plan?

[OkaPoka]

i think it would be funny if seph shot himself

alternatively seph shoots mew if pp flips red

[OkaPoka]

this is all the context of the game of course.

seph shoot mew if pp flips red, gamma if pp flips green please

[OkaPoka]

@A50 can we lynch mew instead of seph? Seph potentially allows us to end the game faster so

[OkaPoka]

VOTE: mewtaph

[OkaPoka]

depends on a mew flip on how we leash seph

[OkaPoka]

scum flip = shoot pp

town flip = shoot a50

?

[OkaPoka]

the thing is seph can conf town themselves while mew cant

[OkaPoka]

the thing is seph can conf town themselves while mew cant

yea, then if seph confirms themselves then it's confirmed i blocked the scum kill. facts.

slight possibility of holstering or dva+you lying and in a team so not really confirmed?

[OkaPoka]

unless dva is scum and is lying ?

and yes i am saying the latter is possible

[OkaPoka]

in a world of dva scum and mew scum with vig seph

n1: seph shoots bef, scum kill bef, scum roleblock a50

dva scum claims only one visit on bef, but is lying.

tada

[OkaPoka]

dva come vote mew

[OkaPoka]

in a world of dva scum and mew scum with vig seph

n1: seph shoots bef, scum kill bef, scum roleblock a50

dva scum claims only one visit on bef, but is lying.

tada

Ok, but why would scum kill BEF lol

idk

[OkaPoka]

why is it mechanically superior to have seph flip?

pp lynch isnt superior with a50;s ultimatum

[OkaPoka]

but from my pov
seph can confirm himself with two nks
mew cant

[OkaPoka]

lynch mew

town mew = vig a50
scum mew = vig pp

lynch seph if not confirmed

[OkaPoka]

seph you better follow through

[OkaPoka]

lynch seph 100% of the time if he claims he forgot fyi