Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[goodmorning]

Hi there, I'm your IC for this game. Tracey's already posted (in post 0) the main gist of the job, but I'll clarify a bit more. What "IC" means is that I will answer your theory questions truthfully and try to give you some explanation of this site's meta.

That's right,

I will not lie to you

about theory.

Now, you may be thinking "no fair, she's got more experience, clearly she will pwn newbs". That's only somewhat true. Some newbies have played many a game of Mafia elsewhere. Besides this, experience counts against me as well: you all are able to look up my past games and see how I've played in them. I can't because most of you don't have any. So it's a fairly even split.

Some helpful Wiki pages:
Quick Guide to Mafia
Quick Guide to Mafiascum
A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia

And some terms:
Glossary
Commonly Used Abbreviations

So now that the IC intro is over...

Vote: Carey

IGMEOY

[goodmorning]

Also HIIIII TRACEYYYYYYY

[goodmorning]

@I: Oddly enough I picked it as the less offensive of the two names I was considering, but "I hate mornings" is an RVS reasoning I see occasionally. (I hate them too, don't worry.)

YES, what you're describing in your first paragraph looks like active lurking and it's definitely part of this site's Scum meta. So, yeah, SPOT ON, SIR

As for your second paragraph: for me, RVS is just useful in that it gets things going. Sometimes that testing-the-waters stage of the game takes too long, and random voting is a way to jump in off the deep end. The response to pressure thing is good though. I've seen games in which L-1or2 RVS wagons get going, and they can be a great example of that.
Some people here hate RVS, and you are (now and in future) by no means required to participate in it. (You might get non-participation used as an RVS excuse against you though.)
Introductions can be good, but sometimes they can benefit Scum unduly.

But don't awaken the Elder Gods before this game is over, I'd rather like to keep winning games. ;]

@fffff: Good to know.

If anyone wants a bit of sharing is caring from me, here's a brief rundown:
I've played occasional RL games over the past 7 years.
I played online at one site previously, they're much less serious than here which is kind of relaxing in tandem with this.
I've just completed my tenth game onsite and I do have them up on my wiki page for now.

[goodmorning]

This game is going to be verrrryy interesting.
Maybe I won't really have to put on my IC hat?
That said, the debating over theory is an interesting study of playstyles but probably not doing much to advance the gamestate. I mean, keep being awesome and all that, but does anyone have any tentative reads?

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.
fffffffff is giving me Townfeels so far.
Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

[goodmorning]

On replacements: Most of them screw the Town. Occasionally they screw the Scum instead.

[goodmorning]

I thought the meaning of my posts was pretty clear? Maybe that IC hat has fallen in front of your eyes.
What would you say town's job is?

Bit defensive, this.
Town's job is to play to their wincon, which is usually along the lines of "get rid of all threats".

Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

Luckily for you, I'm in a good mood today.

Hahaha, sorry. The only game of yours I've seen involved you either self-hammering or being modkilled, I don't remember, but I recall the rest of the playerlist being mildly annoyed with you.

I liked Revenus' question to Fropone.

This is probably the best (most reliable) thing from your readslist, though I'm not sure I agree.

Carey's self-deprecating "don't expect too much of me" is probably the thing that sticks out mos questionablyt atm.

On this: I would agree with you if it were from a Newbie, but it's not the most surprising thing ever coming from Carey. It's definitely something to look back at though.

Alexis Tay, at your service. I'm new to the site and and I really love the game, so please teach me a thing or two! I'm really into the whole theory about mafia mostly because I used to mod RL games.

I like that you're confident coming into this. That's also something to look back at.

I've usually hit enter before the typos register.

This strengthens my Townfeels.

On Fropome's point above, I believe you're trying to say that lurking simply makes it easier for the scum to find someone to target, but I also don't get how it is a great place for them to hide.

I'm sure someone's probably answered this, but basically it means they don't have to say anything that could incriminate them, PLUS Town is sometimes wary of lynching lurkers because 1. they could be Town (or even PRs) 2. It can look scummy to try and drive a lynch on a lurker or 3. they just plain forget about the lurkers.

I'm interested to know where goodmorning got his read on you from.

Gut, mostly. I've played a few Newbie games, I tend to trust my gut for the first couple pages.

Also, I'm kinda keen to understand what purpose a vague hedgy no-read note on me might serve.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later to see how it bounces off the rest.

Besides that I'm not sure I found her post particularly helpful, considering she seemed to redirect the subject to "replacements" and softened the import for town in the same move.

Sorry you feel I redirected. This is my first time ICing, I'm trying to figure out where the hat should go exactly.
As for the replacement issue: you're mostly right, 90% of the time replacements hurt the Town. But there are replacements that hurt Scum (I'm only harping on this because I was Scum in a game like that really, but eh.)

My point is that town have no reason to lurk, even newbie town who are afraid they might make mistakes, newb town mistakes can still be sources of useful information for town.

QFT.

Sorry for quotewalling you, it should get less bad as we get into the game.

[goodmorning]

You asked for

tentative

reads, so I gave you my impressions at that point.

I didn't mean the rest of them were bad, just more easily faked. If you see Town motivation from a question/comment that's stronger than, say, seeing someone who tries to keep the game on track.
Though YMMV.

[goodmorning]

Easy, you pick the person who's only trying to appear to not lurk. Like someone who drops in and posts a brief message on page 3 while only having 1 other post with a random vote and nothing of substance.

VOTE: Deras

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

Stuff about replacements.

For me, I take a step back for a day or two when someone new replaces in, time permitting, then I read the whole slot again. Some people are very good at turning reads around whether they should be or not.

I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.

1. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.
2. I think they do have basis, but in some cases... I don't know what I was trying to say here, just don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
3. It took me a little while to feel comfortable with having gut reads. Everyone differs. At any rate, it's not like a pg2 Townfeel makes you confTown.

Eye, I find the pace of these games, especially the newbie games to be very slow at times. That said, I also don't like Deras' or Carey's level of engagement so far.

THEY CAN BE SO GLACIAL
As far as activity levels go: everyone has lives. I had it said to me in an early game here that the expectation is for players to be on probably once a day in Newbie games (though more is of course preferable).

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

Just post. Don't worry about looking scummy. If you do something that looks scummy, better to find out D1 than D3. Plus there is at least one other person on your team; even if you die, you won't necessarily lose.
Some people form reads later than others. That's cool too. If you notice anything you think is unusual from a player, that's usually a good place to start.

While we have their past behaviour to go on, I wouldn't rely too much on it or they might start using that as an excuse. Whatever their experience is, it's probably still more than most of us.

Good point. How much

can

you trust meta? I've no idea.

Since I can just go around this forum and check other people's games, I wonder if it's allowed/recommended that I should link you guys to my old forum so you can check some of my games?

You're welcome to if you like. It's not really necessary, though, and 5 years is quite a long time.

Whoops. Another quote wall. Oh well.

[goodmorning]

@Revenus: I pointed things out and didn't call them alignment-indicative. Why jump on Deras and not on me?

[goodmorning]

You also seem to be focusing on what behavior is scummy, and while that's important, it's just as important to voice your views about whose actions you feel are town.

YES. Townhunting is a very good (and vastly understated) tool in this game.

It has been forty-eight hours and Birdland has not posted. He will be replaced.

Searching...

THIS IS GOING TO TAKE FOREVER*

_{*forever is an amount of time defined by x, where x is always < 10 seconds}

I'm pretty excited to see who gets the spot...

[goodmorning]

CAPSLOCK FOREVER <3

[goodmorning]

Bit defensive, this.

Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

Possible? Seems legit. Only three though? I must be improving.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later to see how it bounces off the rest.

I see you don't keep notes then.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions, I can look back and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Sorry you feel I redirected. This is my first time ICing, I'm trying to figure out where the hat should go exactly.

I don't feel redirected. You redirected, I didn't.

Let me rephrase: "Sorry that you feel that I redirected."

As for the replacement issue: you're mostly right, 90% of the time replacements hurt the Town. But there are replacements that hurt Scum (I'm only harping on this because I was Scum in a game like that really, but eh.)

Welp, I'm not sure you're not scum in this game, possibly facing the same problem. I'm bemused at how my willingness to talk about my scum experience tingles you in any way.

I doubt any replacements this early on would be of the hurting-anyone variety.
It's something I want to remember you doing, because it's fairly out of the ordinary.

Hello everyone. Nice to see someone familiar faces, and not so familiar faces too in this game.

MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT.
EXCITE
_{TRACEY YOU ARE CLEARLY WONDERFULLLLLLLLL}

I'm beginning to enjoy Revenus already, this sarcasm thing will be immensely entertaining.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

[goodmorning]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

[goodmorning]

Ah man, I'm a hypocrite already. Voting for Fropome mainly on the basis of his overreaction to me.

[goodmorning]

It's page 4. If you're expecting a quotewall's worth of case, you're gonna have a bad time. Usually there's not enough substance for that sort of thing til page 7 or 8 at the earliest. I like I's train of thought, the case is a bit early in my opinion but Deras is one that I might have voted as a pressure-type vote to see if we could get him into the game a bit more quickly.

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.
I voted Fropome as explained in post 87.

Are you implying that newbs can't be Mafia? I'm going after Scum.

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning sir, you seem to be very meticulous with putting all your responses into one post, is that habit? I also see that you unvoted carey, even though much is pointing towards a policy lynch about carey. If he doesn't succumb to the pressure, I don't see how this makes him not worth lynching anyway.

It is. There's usually a lot to cover, and responding to it all at once is quickest.
Eh, policy lynches are weak. There are better ways to go than that. There are a lot of more eloquent people arguing both sides, but I think there's a time and a place, and I'm not feeling it so quickly on D1. Besides that, Carey is usually pretty easy to read if you glance at his past games, so even if he doesn't post a lot there's still something to go on.

@ffffff: Yeah, a lot of people find my playstyle a bit odd. You can check my Wiki page if you like, the Newbie games may be more relevant to this specific situation as I usually get less apathetic in them.

@I: Specific thing has been pointed out somewhere by me, I'd ISO myself and find it but I'm in a bit of a rush right now.

[goodmorning]

Alright, found it.
My post 33 and his response in post 35.
I thought that was awfully defensive for something I picked up on and went "huh". It's like if I were browsing Blockbuster (are those even open anymore?) and found a porno on the "Drama" shelf. When the sales guy threatens to have me arrested for going "huh, that's weird" THAT'S A SLIGHT OVERREACTION.

In other news, HI GOODMORNING! Good to see you in a non-nightless game this time.

EWWW NIGHTLESS IS GROSSSSSSSS

[goodmorning]

Goodmorning: Her posts seem protown but I don't know how much of that is actual discussion and how much is just the IC talking. Her vote for Fropome really threw me off as it seems pretty random or wihtout much basis.

Anything where I talk about the mechanics/theory of the game or the mechanics of the forum is probably an IC post. Anything where I talk about player behavior is probably actual discussion. Anything that is neither is probably fluff.
This is a good point though.

This part of this post is kind of IC and player, that does happen occasionally.

Offtopic: While reviewing the thread I found out that you can check a single player's posts with the menu at the bottom of the page, and you can quote a specific part of a post by selecting it the clicking "Quote", just in case someone else didn't know

More fun mechanics include:
the post tags, which will link to a post if you type

Code: Select all

[post]X[/post]

(where X is the post number)

the spoiler tags,

Code: Select all

[spoiler]blacks out text[/spoiler]

and

Code: Select all

[spoiler=X]compresses into hide/show format[/spoiler]

the URL tags,

Code: Select all

[url=http://something.com]URL text[/url]

Yet ANOTHER cool thing is the "Activity Overview" thing in the bottom right. Tells you how many posts a player has, how long since they've last posted AND if you click their number of posts it'll take you to that player's ISO.

This part of this post is IC, and also I love the post tags because they let me build cases that aren't quote walls.

[goodmorning]

SPOILER TAG TIME

Spoiler: response to ffffff

post 45
goodmorning quotes my post 39 and says that it increases her townfeel re me. How does my post, which is alignment neutral, increase townfeel? Keep in mind that in the same post she thought some of my tentative reads were based on posts/comments of other players she thought were not alignment indicative.

Because it's not alignment neutral. It's a (granted, playstyle-based) very slight Towntell.
I would not presume to think that you look at a game the same way I do. I also didn't say they weren't alignment indicative, just that good Scum can fake some of those things. I'd go so far as to say it's usually Town that does them, but faking a Towngame is what Scum is all about, right?

Post 62:

I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.

1. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.
2. I think they do have basis, but in some cases... I don't know what I was trying to say here, just don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
3. It took me a little while to feel comfortable with having gut reads. Everyone differs. At any rate, it's not like a pg2 Townfeel makes you confTown.

I soft-FOSed her about getting a townfeel so early and with what I see as little basis. She glosses over that and focuses on why her disagreement with the basis of some of my reads at that point doesn't mean we're not on the same team.

Other parts of that post make me uneasy as well. She's encouraging about the Deras bandwagon without adding a vote to it. It's subtle but could be encouraging more votes without getting her own hands dirty.

I think we're having a miscommunication and I have no idea how to rectify it.
For the first point: I incorporate gut a lot, especially early on. The disagreement was one of three points and probably the least important.

For the second: I only have one vote. I think the wagon is an OK one from a pressure standpoint, maybe a bit early from an "active lurking" standpoint.

post 85 also sounds alarms and is the one that finally drew my vote. It feels like she's subtly recast Fropome's suspicion of her as a reason to vote him. But, that looks like an OMGUS vote despite the window dressing.

He's voting me?
At any rate that's kind of irrelevant. I don't think I've ever done an OMGUS vote outside of RVS and I don't plan to start anytime soon.

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

Really?

goodmorning - easy targets and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

One man's "easy target" is another man's "Scum". (Also, speaking of easy targets... hint hint you on Carey)
I've already explained why I'm off Carey. If he's not really paying attention, voting him will add no pressure. I only have one vote, I'd prefer it went somewhere more useful.
Also explained in this post why I'm not on Deras: the wagon is good as a pressure wagon, a bit too soon on anything else. His posts might be scummy or might just be newbish. I have a scumread on someone else, (Deras is leaning at most) and I have one vote. It is eminently logical for me not to vote him.

Also, interesting WIFOM on your Carey point.

Spoiler: response to AT3

His direct answers to GM's subtle attack at his overreaction strengthen my townfeel for him(see post 76).

NO. NO. Not a "subtle attack", sorry. "That's interesting" means "I want to go back and look at that in the context of future posts." It doesn't mean "that's scummy" or "that's wrong."

I see that just like GM, she's not giving a lot of pressure to heavy and recalcitrant lurkers esp Carey, who at least as far as my newbie opinion goes, shouldn't be behaving as such in this game. I, however, feel that

this may be her having anticipated such play from said players,

being more experienced,

so the overall read is also very town.

WHAT.


WHAT.

GM (Manipulative Scummy)
1. In her posts I see a very selective appeal to reasoning, as Fro's behaviour does not really justify him being voted over Carey.
2. Moreover, when Eye Urn attempted to resolve a possible misunderstanding, she did not respond in time, leading me to suspect that she's deliberately playing on Fro's rather newbie posts.
3. Too focused on the behaviour on one person and not paying attention to another.
4. The back and forth that took place between her and Fro also does not help her case.
5. A very strong association between her and Fro, and fferylit is hot on their tail, and GM's rather flimsy reasoning leads me to believe there's a lot happening there.
6. GM's playing real hard on the manipulation.

1. I'm not voting Carey because he's not going to care. I have one vote, there are better things to do with it than try to policy lynch less than a week into a game.
2. Or I have a life outside of MafiaScum. I have yet to hear from Fro whether Fe was correct in his interpretation.
3. Just because I post a lot about one person doesn't mean I'm not watching all the others. Plus tunneling is a valid part of site meta (if I were tunneling) (which I'm not) (if you want to see tunneling I'll try and find a game which I recall was terrifyingly tunnelly) (found it) (take a special look at ThunderHog, captaineddie, and somewhat Zaicon for examples of tunneling) and typically done by Town (though not always) (ThunderHog was Scum in that game).
4. Elaborate.
5. I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here.
6. lol

Also it greatly interests me how similar your readslist is to Fe's and ffffffff's.

All of this may be relevant to you even if you aren't one of those players and I encourage you to read it anyway, but it's a giant quotewall so it's been spoiler'd for sanity purposes.

P-EDIT:
MAC ;-;
FAIR FORTUNE TO YOU, GOOD SIR

[goodmorning]

I don't remember when I said I don't take notes. That's only partly true; for notes I just ISO myself and Ctrl-F "interesting." For everything else I just reread.

NOTE TO SELF: 135 is interesting.

[goodmorning]

...what I really am interested in is everyone voicing their own opinions; it's easy to get by as scum by just repeating what the rest of the town has said.

And this is why 133 gives me pause.

[goodmorning]

@Deras: If you're actually paying attention and have time to say you are, you have time to post a brief post with a read or two instead of "lol I'll try again later".

Votes stand out in thread. It is very easy to skim the thread looking for a vote on you to OMGUS if you're into that sort of thing.

@ffffff: I am aware that that was the vote you thought was an OMGUS vote, being the only vote I have made on Fro so far. What I am not aware of is why you think that. Overreaction is a valid reason to vote someone and, should he explain himself reasonably, I would not then have a reason to keep voting him. So far he has not done so, therefore I do have a valid reason to keep voting him.

In case anyone is interested in my reads:

Town

ffffffffffffffff (dropping towntells everywhere)
Fe (this is, of course, Eye Urn) (for future reference) (pretty townish, but somewhat vague at times in a way?)

Null

Deras (hard newb rea, not so hard any other read)
Mac (few posts)
Rev (I am flipflopping on him. I do not know why.)
Carey (general behaviour BUT it's kind of his playstyle, I'll have a real read on him when he posts substance)

Null

AT3 (reads post)
Fro (pending explanation)

Scum

[goodmorning]

I totally agree that 103 and 133 are very similar, but 133 at least has a bit of blatant misrepping.

FTFY

[goodmorning]

OH WAIT

Should read "... blatant misrepping and use of double standards that make no sense."

[goodmorning]

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

Not the problem.
A lot of the time, I find newbs hard-attacking the IC to be a decent towntell... IF the case has basis and is somewhat original. This is neither.

OH WAIT

Should read "... blatant misrepping and use of double standards that make no sense."

Could you be more specific, please?

It's all in my spoiler'd post. If you want more clarification I can rephrase upon request.

I'm just really thrown off by GM's hostility.

I am not being hostile. I have found something that looks scummy and I'm going to pick it apart.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions,

I can look back

and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Re: the bold. You mean you read your own posts then? Only this is your reasoning for your no-read comment on me, and now you're justifying your scummy seeding of the thread with things to try to build a case on, by saying its for your benefit.

No, I mean that I reread the game. My posts are only part of that. As I realized later, checking my posts for the word "interesting" is technically kind of a notetaking system for me.
I still don't think this clarifies whether it was or was not an overreaction.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

Would like to have seen some reasoning on this first.

Yeah, I realized I hadn't explicitly stated why so I did it in my next post or two.

I think we got one.
Gonna wait till I see a vote count before I put my vote here, but that's where it's headed unless I see anything worse in the meantime.

You're probably fine to vote me, I think there's only one or two votes on me at the moment. ffffffff was saying that you are voting me already though. Is that not the case?

No I'm a native english speaker. It wasn't defensive it was sarcasm. GM's statement was a typical scum maneuver, drop in a nothing now and later try to build a case off it. That plus an impossible read on fer, isos herself(wtf?), and after casting fake doubts on my posts she redirects the subject from that to something completely irrelevant to town.

There was nothing to defend against, I'm English, are the world's best at sarcasm

This looks like grasping.
The read on fffff is not "impossible," ISOing myself is a habit I got into at a point when I was in 7 games at once, the doubts were not fake and are even less so now. I have been accused of redirecting more times in this game than in all previous combined and I see no merit in the accusation.

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

QFT.

From both of you, I want to hear why you think that post is flail. I personally find it to be one of my less flaily posts ever.
Also, do you agree with the reasoning in light of my responses? Or are you just sheeping fffffffff?

Are you still awaiting this "explanation"? (Only i don't remember you asking for one?)

No real substance on any of those reads, but it's still early days.
Flipflopping without knowing why on Rev is interesting. Surely we know what makes us flip-flop?

The potential explanation as per your overreaction that Fe requested.
No, I don't know why I flip-flop. Gut, I suppose?

Aaaaaand wall.

P-EDIT: I was actually going to switch votes to AT3 until I read 167.
LOLNOPE
1. What are more votes going to do to me? Pressure me? I replace into L-1 slots

for fun

. Bitches.
2. This early in the game, if this many people are agreeing it means one of two things: A. Someone has claimed Scum. B. Scum have found a weakness in the Town's reads and plan to use it.
Right now four of you are calling me Scum. I'll make a sigbet on it if anyone is interested: both Scum are in that group.
The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.
PLUS they may want to avoid lynching me today since my flip will likely expose them as obvScum.
So I might actually survive.
The similar push on Carey is giving me a hella Townread on him now.
3. Mac is a good player. Since I have him as sort of a PoE town in my head, that makes me feel confident in Town's win here.

P-EDIT2: There is no requirement to play any Newbie games. Also Carey is an SE, he can join whatever games he wants. I actually think his presence here is bad for Town BUT (silver lining) good for learning because some players do that.

P-EDIT3: Is that L-2? I agree, MOAR PRESSURE

BRING IT ON

[goodmorning]

When I say PoE Town, it means he's a paper Null but as I have two scumreads and he isn't one he's considered Town for the purposes of whatever it is I was saying.
Just to avoid confusion.

[goodmorning]

I am so glad you answered my questions instead of doing this.

Very useful and not at all scummy.

And before you link back the fallacy fallacy, do please keep in mind that your failure to answer even a single one of my questions is anti-Town.

[goodmorning]

It's page 4. If you're expecting a quotewall's worth of case, you're gonna have a bad time. Usually there's not enough substance for that sort of thing til page 7 or 8 at the earliest.

^^ comes off defensive and is interesting in light of your demands for others to explain themselves.

Explanation, yes. Lots of explanation, no.

I like I's train of thought, the case is a bit early in my opinion but Deras is one that I might have voted as a pressure-type vote to see if we could get him into the game a bit more quickly.

Here's your post where you complemented Eye's thought process.

It's a good connection to make, watching for active lurking is a good start to scumhunting.

In post 53, Eye Urn wrote

:Easy, you pick the person who's only trying to appear to not lurk. Like someone who drops in and posts a brief message on page 3 while only having 1 other post with a random vote and nothing of substance.

VOTE: Deras

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

I said this looked like you were encouraging the bandwagon without joining it, ie keeping your own hands clean. What you've said doesn't dispute that characterization.

No. The thought process is a good one (i.e., looking for active lurkers). That said, at the time it was a bit too soon to be looking for them. I don't intend encouragement of the bandwagon on Deras as a good "active lurking" bandwagon, because I wouldn't say that it is. I would say that it is a good "pressure" bandwagon.
Is this finally clear?

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.
I voted Fropome as explained in post 87.

The comment about Carey makes no sense. If he reads thread he'll see the pressure. And in fact he's already reacted to the pressure.

At any rate I have a slight Townread on him now so the point is moot. But I would dispute that he was reading the thread in any seriousness.

Are you implying that newbs can't be Mafia? I'm going after Scum.

Here you throw out a passive-aggressive looking counter. I don't like to use the word "mischaracterize in mafia because it gets overused. But, nowhere have I implied that newbs can't be Mafia.

You accused me of going after "easy newb targets". This does indeed imply that you are not thinking of them as Scum.
I am, I will repeat, going after Scum.
I'm not going to give people a pass just because they're new.
(Meanwhile, you were going after Carey, an obvious sitting duck.)

So yeah, I'm sticking with flail - a bunch of words that don't clarify your position and that in part look like an attempt to pin a position on me (newbs can't be scum) that I haven't espoused.

If my position isn't clear by now you haven't been reading my posts.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, I'll sigbet anyone, the Scum are in {AT3, fff, Fro, Deras}.

Now off to pull out all the questions Fro has left unanswered.

Also to clarify my previous post: "This does indeed imply that you are not thinking of them as Scum." is interesting, as it's something I should have thought about earlier.

[goodmorning]

oh god i'm an idiot

Vote: ffffffffffffff

I'll make the case when I'm done looking for questions ugh I hate myself

P-EDIT: The earlier ones are irrelevant too technicallyyyyyyy

[goodmorning]

Alright. Fro:
1. What are the scumtells you think you saw in my post 33? (I know I didn't ask you this, but at least one other player did, and it involves me, so close enough.)
2. Why do you think my 90 looks flaily?
3. Explain what about 35 wasn't an overreaction.
4. Do you agree with ffffff's reasoning (125) in light of my responses (137)?
AND SOME NEW ONES WHILE YOU'RE AT IT
5. Where are you seeing defensiveness?
6. Explain what about 35 wasn't an overreaction and actually make sense instead of trying to spout some garbled bullshit about sarcasm.

Also here's what really strikes me wrong on Fro: he asks a question or makes an accusation, I respond, then he never mentions it again.

ONWARDS TO CASE LAND

[goodmorning]

Taking a break from case making to point out that I found his backing down there to have a townish feel. Scum would (IMO) be more likely to step up to bat. Weakness is an inherently Town characteristic, it comes from a place of being unsure.

I don't know if that makes sense, my brain's kind of melted from actually making a case with glee rather than revulsion.

[goodmorning]

EBWODP: Backing down there (where I pushed) to have a townish feel.

[goodmorning]

@fff: His back-down on you is a bit suspicious because he kind of used it as a redirect. His back down on me looks pretty innocent, though the lack of response to my six points was disappointing.

And yes, many Town step it up too.

@Mac: Couple things I want to point out real quick before I go back to casebuilding:
1. Soft defending is usually Town IMO.
2. Actually there is no 2, you're Town and I'm glad. The case is coming. You may want to meta fffff tomorrow, she's got this quote on her wiki ("fferyllt - Nothing has sparked for me in a negative way at all. Either super town, or exceptionally good at flying under the radar." - Chenoan, Bugenhagen's Bungalow) and I don't doubt its veracity.

[goodmorning]

I did. Then I read the whole thing. (Then I looked at polygamist too.)
The "diffident and inexperienced" is gone this game, yes. What lies behind that, however...

Everyone has a distinct scumgame behind all the trappings. Some are better at hiding it than others. I know I'm in gut territory here, but there's just a certain way you word things when you're Scum that's different than when you're Town.

When I compare your scumgame to your towngame and hold them both up to this game, I know which one this is more like.

[goodmorning]

Curiouser and curiouser (and interesting).

[goodmorning]

@fffffff: Just meta'd. Very interesting and not at all inconsistent with your play here.

Spoiler: THE CASE

10: The jokey "So, are you Scum?" Maybe I'm pulling confirmation bias here, but it just strikes me wrong.
37: This list of her tentative light Townreads mostly consists of behaviours that can be displayed by either side, several of which she displayed as Scum in that other Newbie game.
39: This post initially gave me slight (though granted, playstyle-based) Townfeels. Posting without reading is not something Scum often do. She has before. (Also, in one of my responses, I expressed the opinion that this was alignment-indicative (which I don't feel now). She ignored this.)
46: I might be imagining a bit of tiptoeing. I might not.
50: Same as 39.
54: It's not sheeping really but that's the closest word I can think of.
56: Suddenly we're suspicious where we weren't before with no reasons to feel that way that we didn't have the last couple of times we posted.
69: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with OMGUS.
82: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with the "lurker=Scum" mentality. (In case someone doesn't know why this is a scumtell: it is much easier to accuse someone with no content than to try to find fake scumtells in the content of active townies.)
85: Votes me, no appended reason.
88: "Lack of case on Fro" when the post before was my case on Fro. "indicating you liked Eye's case/vote" when I stated that I liked his thought process. "going after low-hanging newb fruit" when the object of the game is to go after Scum, no matter their join date. "Going after low-hanging newb fruit" also implies that she

knows

they are not Scum.
92: Compare this with her later feelings, particularly those pertaining to the Fe/Deras thing. Even with no new developments in the situation she gets much harder on this point each time she revisits it.
96: Unmitigated WIFOM. Also ignores the point of my "interesting" read of it even though it's been rehashed to death by that point.
125: Assumes 39 is alignment neutral (which it is, but at the time wasn't 100%). Assumes I was calling her tentative reads not alignment indicative when I said "they are indeed usually Town, but good Scum can fake it." Ignores 2/3 of the points I made in explanation. Harder on the issues from 92. Accuses me of OMGUS, despite the fact that my suspicions of Fro predate his suspicions of me (unless you think he was suspicious of me in 35, which is questionable).
126: Made me sad. Also fails to provide reasoning as to why she thinks it is flails (yes, she's done it since, I'm getting there, she should have done it here).
129: Comes after several people have given reads, and doesn't really cover much new ground (if any). In one sentence accuses me of going after easy targets while staying off of the... easy... targets? SEEMS LEGIT.
Seriously, ask yourself: Who are the easiest targets in this game? Carey and Deras, right? Who's been going after them again? JUST SAYING. JUST. SAYING.
132: Who goes easy on someone acting scummy? SCUM
135: Gave me an "interesting." All the "Oh no, I don't know if I'll still be alive, oh darn" is just trying a little too hard. Plus it's basically saying "I'm just gonna go after one scumread at a time." Why? Can't come up with enough fakery for two?
145: Fluff.
157: This is actually something of a Towntell. Poor lonely thing.
175: Rather than just saying "I found it defensive and didn't like the Fe/Deras thing or your lack of vote on Carey," took the game back almost 100 posts and recycled arguments that had been responded to.
177: This is one of my posts. I am chronicling it here as the "OH SHIT" moment that made me do a complete 180.
179: Suddenly considering other suspects, so as to open up other potential mislynches.
181: This is classic nervous Scum trying to masquerade as relaxed and groovy Town.
183: Suddenly all the players have little things that "bother" her. ALL OF THEM (except Rev, I suppose) (interesting) (and Mac, but I don't know if he really counts yet)
Let's have a look:
me - lots of things.
Fro - lack of paranoia(!) and similar reads to others (HALF THE PLAYERLIST HAS THE SAME GODDAMNED LIST)
Fe- stepping in on the 33/35 thing
AT3 - approval of Fe stepping in and also his backing down
Carey - lurking and uselessness
Deras - lurking and absorbing tips on gameplay which sets his bar higher for her
Mac - nothing, he's posted all of four times
Rev - nothing (interestinggggg)

I await some response eagerly, though I want to urge that we can suspect each other and still be nice. It's not a scumtell to back off of something if it's only frustrating you and not actually accomplishing anything.

@Everyone else: Thoughts?

@Fe: Noticed your last real read of me was around a hundred posts ago. What is it now?

@Deras: There's probably enough content in the game now for you to post lots of substance. Please do.

@Carey: If this game is going to frustrate you, don't play it. But if you're not going to play it, be replaced. Replacement SE slots go hella fast.

[goodmorning]

And when I say "just meta'd" I mean that it took me like 2 hours to do this, taking frequent breaks. Casemaking is my least favourite part of this game.

[goodmorning]

On a quick scan it looks like you missed my comments about Rev. I know I made some when I posted my overall reads. He's in my town pile but it's not a secure place there.

By comment I meant "recent negative comment"

Sorry for the confusion.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, it depends on the mod. Tracey's cool with them probably because she walls often. chk is a pretty brief player, so I'm guessing he doesn't see the need or else they pissed him off for some reason.

I'll go through the rebuttal to my case on you probably tomorrow, I'm kinda tired and there's quite a bit that I saw to respond to.
I can do this one off the top of my head: I found 39 and 50 slightly Town-indicative until I meta'd you, and when I said "I think it is alignment indicative" I kind of expected a Town!you to go "really? How so?" but you didn't. At the time I felt you were Town so I kind of shrugged it off, but it makes more sense from a Scum alignment.

[goodmorning]

EBWODP: "until I meta'd you and discovered they were pure playstyle"

[goodmorning]

Reactions...? I don't think I understand.

[goodmorning]

What I'm saying is that I expected you to react to my saying that I thought it was alignment indicative, but you didn't even bring it up (that I said it was alignment indicative).

And paring down quotes is par for the course, even suggested in this forum (just for future reference. I know some people have been quoting my quotewalls and it's totally cool if you break them down and take out the bits you're not responding to/interested in). I keep forgetting to say that, so now I've said it.

[goodmorning]

Town point-wise, as I said last night, the sheer time and effort involved in that WoT case looks like something town would do more than scum would. I'm reading one of her scum games this morning to see how her case-building in it compares to that post.

Effort isn't correlated with alignment.
I've experimented a bit with different types of case-building, but I think the chronological ISO type is what I've been doing most recently.

And the playstyle thing I'm talking about is kind of ethereal? Honestly it's kind of embarrassing because I'm usually an extremely logical person, but it's just kind of a gut thing. And when I say gut, I mean that there's probably something actual that is the same but small and not something I'm conscious of. And it wouldn't matter what you were emulating because it's sort of a foundational thing? I'm kind of rambling in the incredibly weird ~woo~ sort of area, so I'll stop now. If it's unclear... it is unclear and I have no idea what else I can say to clarify.

There was one thing I think saw but I've forgotten what precisely it was now. If I have time tonight after getting to the 2 pages of posts that have popped up I'll go back and reread that game again to try and find it.

@Carey: I agree that you're a waste of a lynch. I also agree that your slot is being wasted. This game is moving incredibly fast for a Newbie, IMO. I would encourage you to replace out for the simple fact that reading this game is going to take up all the time you have for it, and posting content will fall by the wayside. There are other games, and they need replacements all the time. I'm sure you could find one that would suit you better than this (though I suppose the mod wouldn't be as supercool as Tracey).

@Rev: You're somewhat right about the quotewalls. That said, making cases and pointing out to people things that you think are scummy is how you play the game, how you get them on your side to lynch the player you think is scummiest. Please don't try to keep people from playing just because quotewalls inconvenience you.

@Eye: Terms of the sigbet are few:
If I'm right, you have some sort of signature about how cool I am for some length of time (a week is probably more than enough, sigs are a pain)
If I'm wrong, I have some sort of signature of your choice for some length of time (again probably a week, but it mustn't be too vulgar)
If either of us ends up Scum, the bet is rendered void (because betting when you know the outcome is no bet at all)

@Fro: You're pissing me off. Good news is your playstyle is beginning to remind me of another I've come across before, so that's one thing.

If anyone is curious, I have

actual basis

(!) for playstyle comparisons. It netted me scum here, where I compared SafetyDance to a different player I was familiar with, Zaicon. Some people just play very similarly. (And this is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about foundational play, though in this case I was able to pick out a specific thing: types of questioning.)

Geez, even when I quickpost I wall.

[goodmorning]

Also I'm still waiting to be put at L-1. As a high scumread for so many people, it's extremely interesting that my wagon is being useless.

Though no-one's mentioned it, the wagon stalling would in my opinion be the biggest and only scumtell against me right now.

(IC STUFF: If this happens to you, and you are Town, try and figure out why your wagon is stopped. It may be helpful to you in determining who the scum are if you look for motives first.)

UPDATED READSLIST:

Town

Mac
Fe
Carey
Rev

Null

Deras (technically he's null-leaning-Town)

Null

AT3
Fro
ffffffff

Scum

[goodmorning]

FIVE MINUTE POST GO

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

I said both. Both it must be or I lose.

As for your metaing, you may want to glance over Newbie 1305 for an example of me as less eloquent scum.

Sorry that gut doesn't float your boat. :[

@Fe: I asked you specifically about me because I'm either aware of or not interested in your reads on others. You've made your stances on most of the players pretty clear, to my mind.

[goodmorning]

I have Carey as a weak Townread and Deras ay Null-leaning-Town.

[goodmorning]

Well, this is exciting. I'm here, and I'm going to do a lot of catch-up posting. Four pages mid-D1 in a Newbie... Let's just say I'm glad I'm not in 7 games right now. I'll try not to make it irrelevant.

If you asked me a question and I don't answer it, it's likely that I will have answered it to another person. If you don't find an answer, ask again. I may miss things.

[goodmorning]

What he said.

[goodmorning]

Actually there's a prevailing theory that newbs replacing out are much more likely to be Scum. There's some slight justification for that but ultimately I'd (very roughly) estimate it at about 60-40 Scum-Town, and I certainly wouldn't call it any kind of reliable alignment tell.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: response to ff's rebuttal

10: The jokey "So, are you Scum?" Maybe I'm pulling confirmation bias here, but it just strikes me wrong.

This post right here is why my eyelid twitched when you said you had a townfeel. My early posts were jokey. No questiion. Fropome and I know each other from elsewhere, btw. These posts were hellos/light sparring to see how he reacted and I imagine his to me were the same. I was happy with the results at the time.

In my experience, jokey posts mostly come from confident Town or nervous Scum. I pegged you as more likely confident Town of the two. BUT the jokiness can also come from confident Scum, though less often.

37: This list of her tentative light Townreads mostly consists of behaviours that can be displayed by either side, several of which she displayed as Scum in that other Newbie game.

Yep. hence tentative.

What I mean when I point this out is that coming out with tentative Townreads based on things you've done as Scum doesn't sit well with me from a Town perspective. If you're Scum, this can put these things into others' minds as 100% Town behaviours. (I know this is kind of a stretch. This is the main problem with chronocasing, the early posts are less revealing usually.)

39: This post initially gave me slight (though granted, playstyle-based) Townfeels. Posting without reading is not something Scum often do. She has before. (Also, in one of my responses, I expressed the opinion that this was alignment-indicative (which I don't feel now). She ignored this.)

claiming to get a townfeel off that post imo is weird and possibly scummy. Like looking for reasons to say "town" buddying up scummy. I thought I said that it is NOT alignment indicative. Will get back to this later.

At the time, you were aware that you didn't pay attention to your posting as Scum. I was not. It is eminently reasonable to see lack of care in writing as a light Towntell. And I said that it was alignment indicative, and you didn't react to that statement at all.

46: I might be imagining a bit of tiptoeing. I might not.

caginess for sure. You'd jangled my scumdar by then. Oh and look...cautious comment about Revenus.

NewbScum are often a bit initially cautious in their dealings with an IC.
I was looking for recent negativities.

50: Same as 39.

Another "townfeel" on a null post? And you wonder why I've gotten a scum vibe here?

Again, it was not Null to me at the time. You had information that I lacked.

54: It's not sheeping really but that's the closest word I can think of.

So, getting a town feel off a post is sheeping? Is that what you'd been doing?

What I'm trying to say here is that you didn't provide any thoughts of your own on why Fe's reasoning was good.

56: Suddenly we're suspicious where we weren't before with no reasons to feel that way that we didn't have the last couple of times we posted.

I have no idea what this means. At that point in the thread, I had enough off notes to wonder if it was a pattern and I put out my suspicion to see how you reacted.

You had posted a couple times since my last post as I recall, then came out with your suspicions without anything changing on my end. That said, your explanation here is reasonable enough.

69: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with OMGUS.

The beginning of what appears to be an outbreak of OMGUS votes.

Seeing OMGUS everywhere tends to be a scumtell. It is one of the easiest ways to completely dismiss a case against someone - turn it into the OMGUS strawman and watch it burn.

82: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with the "lurker=Scum" mentality. (In case someone doesn't know why this is a scumtell: it is much easier to accuse someone with no content than to try to find fake scumtells in the content of active townies.)

Interesting. I don't like lurking but I don't automatically default to "lurker = scum". I've been pretty patient with Mac IIRC. Carey's behavior IMO goes beyond ordinary lurking.

I don't think Mac had been lurking prior to this. He posted as much content as he was able and has since made good on his promise to catch up.
Perhaps my statement is colored by my knowledge of Carey, but that's pretty much how he plays.

85: Votes me, no appended reason.

I think it was pretty clear what drew my vote at that point.

And I don't.

88: "Lack of case on Fro" when the post before was my case on Fro. "indicating you liked Eye's case/vote" when I stated that I liked his thought process. "going after low-hanging newb fruit" when the object of the game is to go after Scum, no matter their join date. "Going after low-hanging newb fruit" also implies that she

knows

they are not Scum.

It implies no such thing. n00bs are hard to read

because

they tend to react in scummy ways no matter what their alignment. I take my time in assessing n00bs for that reason.

I think you understate two things: 1. the ability of newbs to play. 2. the amount of difference between newbTown and newbScum reactions. I don't often have difficulty in reading newbs myself, though this game I can tell is liable to be an utter clusterfuck in that arena.

92: Compare this with her later feelings, particularly those pertaining to the Fe/Deras thing. Even with no new developments in the situation she gets much harder on this point each time she revisits it.

I had a solid town read on Fropome at that point. At the moment the only thing shaking that is a certain lack of paranoia about me.

Why would you find paranoia to be a Towntell? Simply because it is easier to look paranoid if you have no knowledge of players' alignments?

125: Assumes 39 is alignment neutral (which it is, but at the time wasn't 100%). Assumes I was calling her tentative reads not alignment indicative when I said "they are indeed usually Town, but good Scum can fake it." Ignores 2/3 of the points I made in explanation. Harder on the issues from 92. Accuses me of OMGUS, despite the fact that my suspicions of Fro predate his suspicions of me (unless you think he was suspicious of me in 35, which is questionable).

I thought he was suspicious of you in 35. As for the rest...there's nothing to refute there IMO.

Mmk. Agree to disagree then?

126: Made me sad. Also fails to provide reasoning as to why she thinks it is flails (yes, she's done it since, I'm getting there, she should have done it here).

I think this is a style thing. I make short posts to get reactions. WoTs come after I have the reactions. I'm not likely to change this style of play unless I find that it doesn't get results. So far, it's gotten results. I think a look back at my lovers game will show the same pattern of push-analyzie-push-analyze.

Playstyle? Fair enough. I tend not to set stock in self-meta though, because if you're aware of having a Town meta you're probably able to emulate it as Scum. Not to mention the accuracy, since people tend to view things vastly differently.

129: Comes after several people have given reads, and doesn't really cover much new ground (if any). In one sentence accuses me of going after easy targets while staying off of the... easy... targets? SEEMS LEGIT

.I think you'll find that I've telegraphed most of those reads in earlier posts. IIRC the only one where I had a lot of recent posts to think about was Alexis'. And yes, I've made the point more than once that it looked like you were ENCOURAGING a bandwagon while staying off it yourself. TBH, I think you can find that I've done something similar, though, and that would be a more legitimate argument - I'm not unhappy with votes on Carey, though I've chosen to focus on you.

"looked like" =/= actual events

Seriously, ask yourself: Who are the easiest targets in this game? Carey and Deras, right? Who's been going after them again? JUST SAYING. JUST. SAYING

. Not sure what your point is here.

My point is that you claimed Fro was an easy target. My point is that Carey was, not Fro, and that you were going after him, not me.

132: Who goes easy on someone acting scummy? SCUM

Who initially goes easy on someone acting n00b? Someone who has mislynched a lot of n00bs. n00bs get better with game experience and pointers. That's what we're all here playing for, right? If helping n00bs improve isn't the reason why we're playing this game, then I'm playing the wrong game.

Sometimes a vote is the best pointer of all.
Apparently I've not mislynched enough newbs yet, I should probably remember that for whenever I pull Scum.

135: Gave me an "interesting." All the "Oh no, I don't know if I'll still be alive, oh darn" is just trying a little too hard. Plus it's basically saying "I'm just gonna go after one scumread at a time." Why? Can't come up with enough fakery for two?

Bit of inconsistency here. Make up your mind. Am I going after too few players or too many?

You're going after too few, setting up for too many.

145: Fluff.

Not fluff. I'd called your vote-post a thinly veiled omgus without linking to it IIRC. That was to document my earlier comment.

Eh. Links aren't that necessary in that context.

157: This is actually something of a Towntell. Poor lonely thing.

This comment right here, this is where the level of condescension dripping from your posts goes critical mass. I'm going to try to take the rest of your post seriously, but it's not going to be easy.

Sorry. My hatred for case-making got away from me. Reading back, all my posts to you look kinda harsh and I have no idea why. I'm sorry if that's been frustrating to you. :[

175: Rather than just saying "I found it defensive and didn't like the Fe/Deras thing or your lack of vote on Carey," took the game back almost 100 posts and recycled arguments that had been responded to.

You need to decide whether you want short and sweet or detailed and thorough.

I think it's possible to be thorough in a short post.

179: Suddenly considering other suspects, so as to open up other potential mislynches.

Lots of posts by other players happened while we barked at each other. I got around to them. Once again, make up your mind. Am I scummy for focusing only on you? Or am I scummy for widening my focus? Short answer, I'm not scummy. I'm scumhunting.

As above: going after too few, setting up for too many.

181: This is classic nervous Scum trying to masquerade as relaxed and groovy Town.

Get me lynched and we'll find out. Town can have a town bandwagon to analyze along with a whole bunch of reads from a confirmed town player.

I doubt it would be possible for me to get you lynched, what with the Town's reads.
I don't know if I've mentioned this in this game, but I frequently call VCA bullshit. Honestly, I think it's a whole pile of WIFOMish crap that's ultimately pretty hit-and-miss. That said, if anyone else finds it helpful, knock yourself out.
ConfTown =/= ConfCorrect

183: Suddenly all the players have little things that "bother" her. ALL OF THEM (except Rev, I suppose) (interesting) (and Mac, but I don't know if he really counts yet)

Go back and read my list of reads. There was stuff that bothered me about every player, including my town reads in that list. Except possibly Fropome. I expected him to come back to the thread and get the heebies about my going after his nemesis. he didn't.

I think we're missing each other's points here, because I don't get what you're trying to say.

Let's have a look:
me - lots of things.
Fro - lack of paranoia(!) and similar reads to others (HALF THE PLAYERLIST HAS THE SAME GODDAMNED LIST)
Fe- stepping in on the 33/35 thing
AT3 - approval of Fe stepping in and also his backing down
Carey - lurking and uselessness
Deras - lurking and absorbing tips on gameplay which sets his bar higher for her
Mac - nothing, he's posted all of four times
Rev - nothing (interestinggggg)

Who's Fe again? And did you find my niggles about Rev? Or did you not look?

Fe is, as answered by him, Eye. I was, as above, looking for recent stuff.

I await some response eagerly, though I want to urge that we can suspect each other and still be nice. It's not a scumtell to back off of something if it's only frustrating you and not actually accomplishing anything.

Ditto. If I come out of this with a town read on you I'll consider it a positive. It's going to take some doing, though, given where I am at right now.

It's always nice when people can be civil.

ONWARDS

[goodmorning]

Actually there's a prevailing theory that newbs replacing out are much more likely to be Scum. There's some slight justification for that but ultimately I'd (very roughly) estimate it at about 60-40 Scum-Town, and I certainly wouldn't call it any kind of reliable alignment tell.

Sauce?

If you're asking me for a source, I think I recall seeing much discussion of this topic in Newbie 1305. As for the rough estimate - I've been in some Newbie games and I've read a hell of a lot more.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: response to Fe's 210

54: It's not sheeping really but that's the closest word I can think of.
snip
69: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with OMGUS.
snip
183: Suddenly all the players have little things that "bother" her. ALL OF THEM

So what?

When a good player accepts another players reads without comment it's a scumtell in my books.
Calling a vote OMGUS is the quickest way to (usually unjustifiably) bring down a case.
Every player having a little problem means every character is a potential candidate for lynch if the wind were to swing that way.

"Going after low-hanging newb fruit" also implies that she knows they are not Scum.

How so? Because you say so?

Because you don't tend to refer to someone you think could potentially be guilty as easy pickings. You refer that way to someone you're pretty damn sure is innocent.

157: This is actually something of a Towntell. Poor lonely thing.
snip
177: This is one of my posts. I am chronicling it here as the "OH SHIT" moment that made me do a complete 180.

You've added two things that are completely irrelevant to your argument. Why?

Towntells are very relevant to any case. It's good to examine and determine whether the person in question has even a slight possibility of being Town, whether their quantity and quality of scumtells outweighs that of their towntells.
177 is relevant here because the change in my read was an unusual one. Most of the time reads change because of something new someone says. This one changed because I was looking at that comment differently.

179: Suddenly considering other suspects, so as to open up other potential mislynches.

Why did you append the reasoning you did to this? Are we not allowed to find both scum at the same time? Must we tunnel in on one of them and not give up? What if we change our mind? What if we don't get enough support? There's more than one scum, we should be free to look for them.

If everyone were scum then you'd be right. The way I phrased that was pretty bad though.
Side note: I usually try to work from a pool of quantity (# of Scum + 1) as that tends to work for me.

I see serious logical errors and misrepresentation throughout. Such things could be signs of scummy behavior, but I'm actually tallying most of it to confirmation bias. There was one thing that set GM off, and now she can't back away from the conclusion she reached almost subconsciously. That's just how our brains work.

Or I biased myself into thinking she was Town and have now thrown off that bias.

I find it super-odd that she explicitly asked me for a read of herself. Usually you ask people for reads of others, as reads for yourself don't really help you find scum. Reads for yourself would help scum evaluate how good of a job they are doing so far and whether they need to change tactics. That request leaves a very sour taste in my mouth, and I am now leaning very heavily towards GM being scum. Not that I'm letting Deras or especially Carey off the hook but this is the first active, non-pseudo-lurking scum move I've seen.

Honestly you've not really said much about my alignment since post 93. I think I've responded to this better somewhere else too.

What I'm saying is that I expected you to react to my saying that I thought it was alignment indicative, but you didn't even bring it up (that I said it was alignment indicative).

Where did you say it was alignment indicative?

First line of my response to you in 137.

Spoiler: response to Deras' 216

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

YES
GOOD
GOOD JOB
I was waiting for someone to call that WIFOM or worse and nobody did. This is exactly what I was looking for and it's a minor point in your favour.

129: Comes after several people have given reads, and doesn't really cover much new ground (if any). In one sentence accuses me of going after easy targets while staying off of the... easy... targets? SEEMS LEGIT.
Seriously, ask yourself: Who are the easiest targets in this game? Carey and Deras, right? Who's been going after them again? JUST SAYING. JUST. SAYING.
132: Who goes easy on someone acting scummy? SCUM

Unless I'm misinterpreting this, the second point seems to contradict the first, on 132 you're arguing against ff for going easy on me because of perceived scummy behaviour, but in the first one you said going after Carey and me was the easy (and thus scummy) thing to do?

The first point was about hypocritical and untrue accusations. I also called the two of you the easiest targets based on the feelings of the playerlist and amount of content you both had. The second point was that if someone is being scummy you go after them. I personally would disagree that it's a contradiction but I suppose it could be as applied to some people? Words are failing me.

It hadn't ocurred to me that verifying town was as important as hunting scum, but I'm trying to rectify that.

Yes, Townhunting is one of the best tools we have to hunt Scum.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG

[goodmorning]

I think that willingness to talk, as long as it's actual discussion which I believe you have, is a protown since a scum talking that much would give themselves more chances to get caught (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

It is helpful to Town but not a Towntell. In Newbie 1305, I was in the game for less than a week realtime, but managed to rack up more than 25 posts in that time. And they were mostly not short.

I love 157 by fferylt. How anyone isn't townreading this guy is beyond me.

I love it too, it's the rest of her play I'm not so fond of.

And then just quotewalls thrown back and forth. If I get anything significant from these I'll let you guys know, but again, trying to convince each other that the other person is scum is distracting IMO.

YMMV.

in general, I haven't played a game with scum who leads in post count.

For me, there's been:
Human Destroyer in Newbie 1308
They were #2 and 3 in Micro 117
DeathRowKitty in Mini 1420
^This is out of my 10 completed. A small sample, yes, but a pretty significant percentage.

The speed at which you and him are interacting is really making it hard for me to catch up on the argument.

Yeah, this is pretty much the only game I've been in that would actually benefit from a bit of a slowdown.

Spoiler: response to Fro, page 10

1. What are the scumtells you think you saw in my post 33? (I know I didn't ask you this, but at least one other player did, and it involves me, so close enough.)

I outlined them to fer, I've recounted them since, most recently to Eye on the very pagebefore you posted this load of shit. You are not reading my posts, as evidenced by the fact that you keep on misdirecting what I say.

If any of those were scumtells I might agree with you.

2. Why do you think my 90 looks flaily?

Because that's what flail looks like.

Not an answer.

3. Explain what about 35 wasn't an overreaction.

I love the way you premise your questions with your own fake assumptions included.
It was sarcasm about your post. Read it, you'll see two sarcastic statements, one about the meaning of my posts being clear, and one about your failure to understand. I get it made you sore or w/e, but your emotional response is your own reaction.

I am well equipped to find and understand sarcasm. None of 35 looks even remotely like sarcasm.

4. Do you agree with ffffff's reasoning (125) in light of my responses (137)?

Problem with your responses is

most of them are none responses

. yes I pretty much agree with ffer. This is one of those things which happens in mafia, people agree with each other's statements.
bold: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yes, sometimes people agree on something. Rarely do they agree on everything.

5. Where are you seeing defensiveness?

from edit: the whole dishonest redirection and reformulation of what has been said, the dismissal of the obvious, you're either scum, or just pathologically dishonest.

Even if dishonesty were defensive, which I'm not going to get into because it's largely irrelevant, this is not an answer. It is not even close to an answer. When I say something like "you're being defensive" and can't provide any examples of such, I expect to be laughed at all the way to the gallows. I don't sit there smugly and expect to be lauded for making claims I can't back up.

Right about here I was ranting, something about useless sons of bitches, but I think I'm going to turn the other cheek instead.

6. Explain what about 35 wasn't an overreaction and actually make sense instead of trying to spout some garbled bullshit about sarcasm.

If you can't recognise sarcasm, I can't help you. Calling it bullshit doesn't make it so, anyone can read for themselves (apart from you, apparently).

If you fucked up and had to backpedal and the only excuse you could find was sarcasm, I can't help you. Calling it sarcasm doesn't make it so, anyone can read for themselves (apart from you, apparently).

Also here's what really strikes me wrong on Fro: he asks a question or makes an accusation, I respond, then he never mentions it again.

Some of your responses are hardly worth pursuing, I'm not interested in exchanging WoTs with someone who uses language so dishonestly as you do.

There you go again with "dishonest." If I had known this was going to turn into ad hominem I would have worn my wellies.

I'll take your sig bet!

If you agree to the conditions that I outlined wherever it was, then we're on.

[goodmorning]

I am distrustful of meta from games I didn't play. It's hard after the fact to put myself into the game.

LOL not enough gut

On the other hand, your reference to Micro 137 is a bit redundant because the game mechanics were TOTALLY different. I was also scum in that game. It was nightless, meaning we had to drive the town to mislynch two of their own rather than us. She's a very clever player: look at our scum QT where she practically holds my hand as I stumble my way through the first 10 or so pages.

Sentence 1-3: TRUTH
Sentence 4: You far understate yourself, you adjusted quickly and well.

She did make similar styled cases to the one she made on you in that game: one on why I was newbtown and one on why TNE was scum (one more too, but I forget which.) That's worth remembering - but it could also be her general casestyle and playstyle.

Chronocases? That's just how I roll, yo.

gut is convenient when you can't build a case.

Or when you don't like to.

I'm not totally dissing gut. Gut points me in the right direction frequently. I don't try to peddle my gut to other players, though, not without supporting data.

You seem to me to be a fairly clinical player for the most part, more logic less feelings. I started out trying to go that route but honestly it's hard to do here. Good luck with it though.

In my first game I did not indicate I was a newb to mafia, I referred to prior experience and I let the other players go along their merry way when they decided I was relatively inexperienced. I played a clean, careful game and most of town had me high in their townie list.

Side note: I've actually seen the newb disguise put on deliberately to deceive the Town, and it worked (on Tracey

no i'm not harping on about it, okay?

).

She praised another player for pressuring a n00b about an ancient scumtell that is hardly useful anymore except to identify n00bs IME, while staying away from that bandwagon herself. And that is what I called her on.

Active lurking remains a valid scumtell, it's just gotten a bit more subtle. You may or may not have noticed that I was doing so in Micro 137 (I seem to recall that Wisdom did, actually). If you didn't notice it, you're ignoring a valuable scumhunting tool.

This one's a wall. ALMOST THERE

[goodmorning]

I have no idea what is going on.

Please try to find out.

Spoiler: response to Deras' 291

I still believe the ammount of discussion generated by her is more likely to come from town than scum.

Effort does not correlate with alignment.

Before you even asked:
viewtopic.php?p=4825759#p4825759
Since you asked the first time:
viewtopic.php?p=4830708#p4830708

Thank you, I guess I missed the fact that those referred to the scumtells on GM's post. [/quote[
I would personally opine that they don't. (just saying)

GM agreed on the conclusion, aka "Deras = scum"

No. Very much not so. I said, and I quote "

It's a bit early on

, but I like the

thought process

"
Translation: It's too soon to call someone an active lurker. I like that you are looking for active lurkers, however.

That's not the point. The point is, why are you interested in my read of you at all?

I was curious as to your read on me for several reasons.
1. At a point in time where I'm kind of a big deal in terms of the discussion, you seemed to me to be rather focused on other things. I find that interesting and that made me wonder about your reasons for doing so.
2. It's always a good idea to be aware of where you stand, even as Town. Just because Townies shouldn't have to worry about what they say doesn't mean they should just troll everyone.
3. If you know what people think of you, you can better assess their alignments.

As a side note, I just discovered [post] tags. How amazingly simple.

[/quote]
I KNOW, RIGHT

I LOVE THEM

[goodmorning]

What's clear to me is that we're going to be stuck with him until we lynch him. Which might as well be toDay although I suppose not necessarily right now.

Well, you could try petitioning Tracey to force-replace him. I honestly think a lynch on him would be a mislynch, so I'd personally rather we didn't go that route.

Wow. I guess that's it.

CATCHUP: SUCCESSSSSSSSSS

Sorry there's so much of it though, we may want to chill the fuck out a bit. I said somewhere in one of my catchups that this is the only game I've been in that would be better off a little slower, and it's kinda true. I was swamped and I've been reading and rereading the whole time.

Hopefully the new replacement is someone awesomecool, though I have that slot in my scumpool and it would make me sad if someone coolawesome was Scum.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: response to Fro's 323

If any of those were scumtells I might agree with you.

All of it fits with scum motivations, I don't see how any of it works for the benefit of town. That's what's scummy about it.

The reasons you list:
1. Read that you didn't see where it came from - not my fault if you weren't picking up what I was putting down.
2. My "interesting" - has since been explained. If you don't find the explanations satisfactory please ctrl+f "interesting" in my Newbie game ISOs as both alignments.
3. You thought that I redirected the conversation to the import of replacements. A. That was in response to a comment from Fe. B. I did not intend to redirect any conversation and don't feel that I did so.
4. The read again. Still not my fault if you weren't getting where I was coming from.
5. ISOing myself - IN WHAT UNIVERSE IS THIS ANY KIND OF TELL?
6. The redirect again.

Not an answer.

...that satisfies you. I'm not here to provide you with more excuses to lay down another WoT of misdirections. You do your thing, and if you're town you'll act with town motives, if not hopefully enough town will pick up that and give you a kick up the backside. Meanwhile, if you're scum, you're doing a good job of looking the part.

No. If you ask me a question I will answer it. If I ask you a question you say "it just is, nah nah".
Not providing any reasoning or examples to back up your accusations is scummy as fuck.

I am well equipped to find and understand sarcasm. None of 35 looks even remotely like sarcasm.

Beep boop.

How helpful of you.

bold: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Yes, sometimes people agree on something. Rarely do they agree on everything.

Haven't agreed on everything. I need to keep some things close to my chest in regards to ffer in order to catch her out if she is scum. I believe she's town, and I was far from impressed with you ad-hoc case against her.

Yes, my case is indeed ad-hoc. Ad-hoc is defined by Merriam-Webster as "for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application".
I am not interested in applying my case against ff in a wider fashion. It is a case concerned with and designed for this game.

Even if dishonesty were defensive, which I'm not going to get into because it's largely irrelevant, this is not an answer. It is not even close to an answer. When I say something like "you're being defensive" and can't provide any examples of such, I expect to be laughed at all the way to the gallows. I don't sit there smugly and expect to be lauded for making claims I can't back up.

I can back it up. Your dishonesty¹ consists in how you spin narratives post-hoc², you may be lying to yourself³ but it's for others to judge alongside me if you're talking consistently and making coherent cases, or not. I've said what I meant, that you continue to misrepresent it is dishonest⁴, that you interpret into stuff things which never happened is dishonest⁵, and you use of terminology in order to slant the narrative is also dishonest⁶. If that's how you are irl, then ⁷

1. I did not ask for instances of dishonesty. I asked for instances of defensiveness.
1a. Come to think of it, you really didn't give any instances of dishonesty either.
2. "Post-hoc" is defined (second definition) by Merriam-Webster as "formulated after the fact". Provide an example of me doing this.
3. I am neither lying to myself nor to the rest of the playerlist.
4. Does it ever get boring to repeat your unfounded statements?
5. Much of playing Mafia is the individual's interpretation of others' actions. There is nothing inherently dishonest about personal interpretations.
6. Terminology. Really. I'm not the one slinging Latin here.
"Slanting the narrative?" Really? History (and narrative) is written by the victors. At the moment I'm supposedly a scumread of a high number of people, I don't think I'd have a chance of "slanting the narrative" if I tried (and I wouldn't, because I prefer that people not just blindly sheep)
7. Go fuck yourself.

If you fucked up and had to backpedal and the only excuse you could find was sarcasm, I can't help you. Calling it sarcasm doesn't make it so, anyone can read for themselves (apart from you, apparently).

We'll see if I fucked up when you see my flip! Then you'll have to face falsification of your failure to deal honestly with your own biases and dumb no-reads.

Wowwwww. This guy needs a slow clap for this one. AtE AND ad hominem? (oh look, my Latin comes with a helpful explanation

so I don't look like a dick

)
BEST. ARGUMENT. EVER. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

There you go again with "dishonest." If I had known this was going to turn into ad hominem I would have worn my wellies.

You could be scum, so don't take it necessarily personally, unless you're town in which case you really are someone I do not want to play alongside again soon.

You have yet to prove:
1. That I am being dishonest
2. That all dishonesty must necessarily be scummy
2a. Or at least that the dishonesty you claim you can demonstrate my exhibiting must necessarily be scummy.

How about if I flip scum you write my sig, and if you flip scum I write yours? Sig to remain for one month from end of the game. I'm in for that, say you'll deal and it's done.

That's no gamble at all. I'll take that "bet" (not really a bet because I'm already aware of how it'll turn out on my end) and you're gonna regret it, 'cause I'm

the best there's ever been

Town.

Spoiler: that thing about not being the NK

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

Me neither.

I responded to it in one of my catch-up posts, 312, in a response to Deras.

@Fro: You're pissing me off. Good news is your playstyle is beginning to remind me of another I've come across before, so that's one thing.

So what should I care if I'm pissing you off? You've done the same thing with revenus as you tried to get away with doing with me, and I suspect you were getting ready to "build a case" on him when your try with me gained no traction.

1. What thing with Revenus? What thing with you?
2. I've not had a scumread on Revenus so far this game.
3. My philosophy on traction in Mafia games: if you're not getting traction, dig in and push harder. (barring, of course, a scummier read)

@Fro, 379: You are completely able to meta me if you so choose.

Spoiler: response to ff's 331

In some cases she was recasting them as scummy even though after they were posted she'd mentioned her townfeel.

Yes, oddly enough that townfeel did a sudden turnaround somewhere after

that

.

I think it's mostly reaction to me - the pressure I put on her starting with my vote.

I don't know if you meta'd the game where I replaced into the scummiest slot (it was at L-1 and L-2 for most of the game) for the challenge of trying to turn it around, but I would do that again in a heartbeat. Votes and pressure bounce straight off my logical side, they don't even touch my emotions.

I think there's a really big chasm between our game styles. Her style, with the cute all caps end notes, the condescension, and other emotional curlicues annoys me. And I am reacting pretty negatively to that, which doesn't help in getting to an objective read of how she's reacted to the pressure I put on her.

CAPSLOCK FOREVERRRRRRRR
Like I say, I was all logic once. It didn't work that well for me. Maybe it will work for you.
LOL "pressure"

Now I'm thinking about who avoided those skirmishes, and whether anyone appeared to be trying to fan the flames, and from which direction.

This is a very good thing to be thinking about.
I personally was looking at Fe in that respect (yet another playstyle ping, sorry). He's playing verrryyy close to the belt here.
I'm definitely rereading today or tomorrow and revamping my reads.

Also, where did GM and I make peace. I'd say that I have backed off a bit and am trying to widen my view now. But, I get no sense of peace made from anything that GM has posted.

This.

ArcAngel9 replaces AlexisTay3.

Oh.
The same ArcAngel9 that always reads me Scum regardless of my alignment?
Coooollllll.

@Fe 344 If you were ISOing Carey you should've done Micro 137 and killed two birds with one stone ;]

@Deras 347 ugh i 100% hate when people do that. In seriousness, I was about to give right the fuck up on that post and get a bit screamy about nobody paying attention.

@AA9: Hi. I'm Town.

@Everyone:

The one thing I don't like about spoiler tags is that people sometimes don't read them if it's not specifically addressed to them. I encourage you to at least skim just in case there is a brief point you find interesting/useful.

[goodmorning]

@Fe 344 If you were ISOing Carey you should've done Micro 137 and killed two birds with one stone ;]

What does that game have to do with Carey?

Whoops, that should say "Micro 117".

[goodmorning]

I was incredibly happy when I woke up and saw that there weren't a billion new posts, but then I was a little disappointed.

what is wrong with me

To find a happy medium would be good though, I was going to say something about being lulls in activity but honestly we're probably just mostly in similar time zones. (I am in EST/EDT, by the way.)

Eye Urn how are you feeling about GM these days?

Mmm, he never did answer when I asked this, did he? Interesting.

[goodmorning]

@Fe: What is the difference, to you, of a player asking you for thoughts on him/herself versus asking you for thoughts on others? Do you find one of them to be scummier? Townier? Why?

Also forgot to change my vote.

Vote: Fro

I'm at about 90% sure on him, my confidence on fffff has dropped to about 50%.

[goodmorning]

GM, you are showing a tendency to go after people as being scummy who are going after you as scum.

OK. I can't help it if the people I think are displaying scummy behaviour happen to be calling me Scum. It happens sometimes.
I'd really like to clarify that I don't OMGUS. Ever. As any alignment. And I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to hint at such.

Let's look at the list of people who haven't had a scumread on me in the last couple pages:
Mac - he's being pretty obvTown, so I don't find him scummy
Carey - in addition to not having said much to find scummy, the speed and volume of policy suspicion on him makes me suspect that he may be Town.
Rev? - I don't really remember if Rev's called me scummy recently or not. He is flying a bit low, but it's not unduly suspect, and his tunnel on Carey is sort of sending me gutTown.

EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

@AA9: Which is all well and good, but LaL is kind of irrelevant to the present game. I look forward to seeing your thoughts as pertain to slightly more recent events.

[goodmorning]

What she said.

[goodmorning]

The roles aren't assigned randomly?

They are definitely assigned randomly.

[goodmorning]

Stalling is useful as long as it doesn't last too long, gives you a chance to catch your breath and reread/ISO if you have time.

[goodmorning]

If you count 3 months as a long time.

[goodmorning]

@Fe:
As concerns meta, I like to be transparent. Since my experience of the site is more than most of yours, I want the playing field to be as even as possible. That said, I don't really feel I understand my meta at all. I know there are some playerlists that just give me magical games, and some playerlists that make it incredibly hard, but I don't think there's any rhyme or reason to it.
As concerns fff, I've made my case. She's rebutted it. I've laid out the bits that she didn't rebut to my satisfaction and conceded those that she did. I don't know what else you want from our exchange, but continual rants/walls from both of us would only be repetitive and furthermore distracting to the town.
As concerns sigbets, did you see the one I made with Fro? How do you feel about it as compared to my proposed one? Would you have taken me up on it if the wording of the third condition had been "...unless you're Scum" rather than "...unless either of us is Scum"?
As concerns knowledge, I do indeed feel I know more than you about certain things.

@Tracey:

Can you please confirm that roles are indeed chosen randomly? Just for the record.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, so it's been almost a day with just fffffff posting. I would like to hear more from AA9 and Deras, especially as to why they aren't voting. I would like to hear more content from Fro, Carey, and Rev as well, because they've not posted for some time. I have said all there is for me to say on the game as it exists presently.

[goodmorning]

I was actually waiting for Carey to post some more to get a better feeling on him, as it stands he's the highest (lowest?) on my scumdar right now.

Anything specific, or just the lurking?

[goodmorning]

After thinking about the situation while at work today (where I do not have Internet access but do have plenty of time to think things over), I have come to an entirely different conclusion and will need another thorough reading to find out exactly what it means. In the meantime,

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Interesting. I'm curious as well.

[goodmorning]

Well, I've mentioned this before but "erratic" pretty much sums up his meta. I have a light townread on him for the speed of suspicion on him alone, because that hella set me off.

[goodmorning]

I cannot believe I just semi-seriously typed "hella"

brb dying

[goodmorning]

So who do you feel is being opportunistic about him?

Uh, who has him as a scumread? I mean the lists are basically the same

I'll go back and look at actual reasoning and stuff later if you like, but right now I'm in my old glasses and they're making me feel faintly queasy round the edges.

[goodmorning]

Oh, uh, Tracey? You wanna mod totalnewb? I think it calls for far above ICexplains.

Done.

[goodmorning]

What I'm trying to get at is that more than 2 people have him in their scum pile, or at least null-scum. Some of those people have to be town by process of elimination. But, if you're right about him being town, then there may be a scum player voicing enough suspicion of him that they could credibly join the wagon if enough town get behind it.

That seems like a place to look for scum.

That's it in a nutshell, basically with the opinion added that at the speed suspicion based solely on lurking grew it makes it more likely that one or even both Scum are in that suspecting group.

[goodmorning]

Oh, uh, Tracey? You wanna mod totalnewb? I think it calls for far above ICexplains.

Done.

Thank youuuuuuu

[goodmorning]

Why ask them? Why not someone else? Why not call out Deras or AA9?

I think the single votes are a good way of feeling out where people stand. It is, after all, only a week into D1.

[goodmorning]

Well, you and I have said all there is to say. I know as an IC it's kind of my responsibility to keep it moving a bit but honestly there's not much I can say until people get their asses in here and post content.

[goodmorning]

[gm] made a post which ended with stuff about being all nice and friendly now, which I was commenting on.

No. I made a post commenting on what a nice change it is to have a civil discussion. Frequently on this site, "making a case" is equated to "ATTACK. FIGHT DIRTY IF YOU HAVE TO AND BEING AN ASS IS A-OK". Civility is

wonderful

.

Okay, in the interests of moving forward and widening out a bit, and to make sure I don't support

a mislynch

in my absence.
UNVOTE: goodmorning

Is that opinion or knowledge?

@fffff: Honestly that readslist is striking me as incredibly Town for some reason. Reassessment is probably something that needs to happen sooner than later on my part as well.

[goodmorning]

GM how are you feeling about ArcAngel's posts?

I'm not sure. Honestly she's incredibly hard to read unless you've played her before (I've done so two, three times?) but her meta is usually blatantly obvious. Depending on what she says next, she (the slot) may end up (back) in my scumpool.
For her posts so far, none of them have really been that indicative to me either way, which in itself is vaguely scummy for her. (That probably doesn't make sense in words but is very clear in my head).

My problem is that I really have not grasped the concept of how to scumhunt. My scumdar is terrible.

Then townhunt, and find Scum by PoE.

[goodmorning]

^true that

[goodmorning]

@Carey: I'd like to hear your answers. Pending reread, my scummiest read is still Fro. My towniest is probably still Mac but

where is everybodyyyyy

[goodmorning]

@Carey: Who is your Towniest read? Who is your Scummiest?

@Fe: Agreeing with someone does not mean they are Town and it's not a good way to read people. Coming from you, a player I'd rank as being pretty competent, that statement is very interesting.

[goodmorning]

"Figured out"?

Even more interesting.

[goodmorning]

Mhmmmm. Right. OK.
Seems a little too easy, that's all I'm saying.

[goodmorning]

@Mod

: Looks like it's time for a prod on Fro.

[goodmorning]

Well OK. This is getting a bit ridiculous.

[goodmorning]

Uhhhhhhh
Well your nutshell is ok, but I wouldn't say we're that nice to each other. ffff is satisfied with her current read on me and I have candidates that I think are better. If I see some slip from her you can expect the walls to return, maybe.
Readslist looks Town mainly because of the stream-of-consciousness nature of the reads, especially the ones on Mac, AA9, and myself.


P-EDIT
Uhhhhhhhhh
What the fuck is that vote?
My head hurts.

[goodmorning]

players were very careful about putting people at L-1 without some consensus about it.

That sounds pretty boring IMO.

I"ve not seen someone get to L-1 here at MS that way without either consensus or a temporary unvote.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen someone get to L-1 here that way.

You know what bothers me? GM's rather mild reaction to Carey's vote.

What were you expecting I'd do? I don't find L-1 to be a big deal.

[goodmorning]

Good Morning, you are not giving much as i am expecting, so not is really cool.

As much what, precisely?

Just trying to stir up discussion with my vote. Looks like I succeeded.

"It was just a reaction test" is a common Scum excuse.

[goodmorning]

What in the fuck is this game and why so many replacements

[goodmorning]

GM, from what I've seen most newbie games replace at least half the slots. Sometimes a slot even gets replaced more than once.

I think of the games I've had it breaks down like this:
Well, my first Newbie had 3 replacements, one for a not-picked-up PM.
Second had 6, 3 of which were on one (my) slot(!).
Third had 5, but 4 of those were early D1/limited activity and quickly forgotten.
My most recent had only one, very early in the game (which was me).

Replaced Fropome. Gonna read the thread tomorrow with better time.

Hi. I hope to see more from you than we did from Fro.

[goodmorning]

It's difficult to scumhunt when 90% of new posts are "I'll get to this in a bit".

I've definitely put off doing a reread, but suffice it to say that my current scumpool is Z, AA, and Fe.
Z has yet to post anything that would change my mind on the slot. It would probably be appropriate to allow him a bit more time to contribute before considering a lynch on him.
AA is playing to her classic scum meta. I'd be voting her now but I'd like to see the wagon stabilize first, just in case.
Fe is the one I really need to look at more in depth, but he's playing close to the belt and something about his posts just strikes me as being off.

fff is scumpool backup.

[goodmorning]

I have read back a bit for what it's worth, it stemmed for AA9 feeling once scum was in IC/SE combo because the mod wouldn't let two newbies in. Then Eye Urn came in

and backed her up

with some complicated math which hurt my eyes and said there was a 42% chance of one scum in the three ICs... Kinda looks like he's trying to back up a null point from AA9. But then he goes and votes her.

Interesting observation.

Wow, Just wow. You never palyed a game with me as scum to see what is my scum meta. And i never palyed defensive game as before.
How are you basing your explanation?

1. I've read your meta, especially when
2. I replaced you as Scum and had to look back to see what had been said.

[goodmorning]

Even if

you

do a wrong lynch during day 2 (and get a mafia during day 1) we have this game wrapped.

Typo? Slip? Either way it deserves attention.

I know we don't have much time and we should lynch someone.

A week is plenty of time.

Still this feels like a witch hunt where fferyllt is focusing on one player without giving much thought on other players.

Have you even skimmed this game at all?

@Rev: That's nice, say more stuff please?

[goodmorning]

FFerylt is a Wannabe Townie. Most of her posts don't have much content

Of all the players you could accuse of not having content...

Readslist, finally updated:

Town

Deras
Mac
Carey

Null

ff
Rev

Null

Fe
Z
AA9

Scum

[goodmorning]

How would that make them Town as opposed to just sheep?

[goodmorning]

Aaaaand Z is flip-flopping more than a paranoid flounder on meth. I do not know why you all have townreads on him or his slot.

[goodmorning]

Mac is correct.

Z is Scum (just one solid read? Really?)

I will be V/LA til Sunday at the latest.

Noted.

[goodmorning]

Well, keeping one's options open (so to speak) is a mild scumtell. This is, of course, just the latest in a long line of scummy behaviour from that slot.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, Music Theory Mafia's probably only a good meta for my incredibad Scum play.

[goodmorning]

I would like to say that how

goodmorning

acted (#659) is a solid scum tell. Blaming townie for not having reads after being in game for few days.

The game has been going on for 2 weeks and upwards of 20 pages. I expect anyone who replaces in to at least have glanced over these and to be able to have more than one strong read. I also do not like your attempt to paint yourself as Town here.
Question: What evidence do you have against an AA-Carey team?

It's looking like GM is trying to pry apart people who recognize each others' thought processes by claiming that we're just agreeing, when that's far from the truth. She might even push it off as part of her IC behavior and to some extent what she's saying is correct, but the problem is that she's mischaracterizing our arguments and the lines of our reads saying that we just happen to agree.

If you say "I agree with these people so I feel like they're Town" I'm not going to extrapolate "I might have had the same thought if I'd just written it all down" from that. I'm not trying to "pry [these people] apart" either, I'm just saying it's a silly way to Townhunt.

Could you point out where he is flip-flopping? Other than downgrading you from leaning town to leaning scum, I think his reads have been fairly consistent.

That may be so. Honestly I've not been sleeping much recently, so I've been paying slightly less attention to Mafia.

649 did strike me as a little odd, GM giving no reasoning for her reads.

I've given my reasoning on pretty much all those reads many times before. I see no reason to gum up the thread with redundancies.

VisceraEyes comes to the rescue and replaces CareyHammer. Welcome him!

I've never heard of him. How unusual.

[goodmorning]

The IC's job isn't to be the very best player. The IC's job is to help players new to the site get acquainted with it.

[goodmorning]

Almost 12 hours sans posting? I know it's the weekend, but still, that's pretty terrible.

[goodmorning]

Under 4 days?
I'm waiting to hear from Carey's replacement too, but I'll repeat that I am more than willing to vote AA.

[goodmorning]

Yeah, it's been 2 and a bit days on VE.

Can we get a prod or a replacement considering the deadline and his complete lack of posts?

[goodmorning]

667 - this is quite picky, I had a quick ISO of gm in some scum and some town games (and by quick, I mean Ctrl + F "reads") and whilst she does give more reasons in town games like that, she also gives reasons in scum games too. It's worth remembering, but it's quite a null tell and not particularly lynch worthy (and, that said, nothing meta-related is lynchworthy unless it's seriously bad., so bad I can't even think of an example.)

671 - agree wrt Z painting himself as a townie, it's like he's trying to encourage a case against GM. Don't really like it, GM says "not enough reads" and he tells her to stop attacking a townie. It's not a good reaction.

690- AA9's GM case... is meta-related? nooooooo no no NO. Find something in

this game

that makes GM scummy rather than saying she's acting the same: goodmorning is a good player and I highly doubt she'd repeat her scum play so obviously.

Are you buddying me? </3

AGH IT'S SO FLATTERINGGGGGGGGG

IT BURNSES US

...everyone else posts things that I basically would have expected from them...

Like what? Also, the lynch wheels are turning. Both fff and myself seem willing to lynch AA9 before deadline barring unforeseen circumstances. Right now it's probably more important to get what info we can out of the Carey slot before a lynch, as there are still several days before deadline. Why so anxious?

[goodmorning]

@GM, IC question, is no lynch ever good for town?

Not usually, but on occasion. The most common reason a no-lynch might purposefully occur is in a MyLo situation with only one scum party. Most times the benefits of the potential for information and the potential to hit Scum outweigh the costs of a potential mislynch.

@Fe: Yeah, that does happen sometimes. The best thing I can suggest is that you take the downtime to reread, reevaluate, and maybe find something new that you missed before? This is definitely a situation that is being compounded by the volume of replacements and lack of volume of comments from them.

[goodmorning]

ArcAngel9 last post (#684) seems too desperate to be a scum post. I would think scums would just give up at this point and try to draw attention off their buddies. If ArcAngel9 is a scum she have being doing good job at this for still I can't think anyone to be her ally.

LOL You think that's desperate? You should see my performance in Newbie 1305.

We have to think alternatives in case that ArcAngel9 turns out to be townie.

Yes, after a flip we certainly will.

I still think goodmorning is only leaning toward scum but I will vote for her just so that not all our effort goes to the ArcAngel9.

Mafia's not really a divide-and-conquer game unless you're Scum, fyi.

Actually, I think my best guess for scum is Z7-852. Let me count the ways.

• superfluous "scumometer" in every post
• lots of summaries with very few conclusions
• requests thoughts on every single player in the game

Looks like classic "Hey I'm active guys" scum. I don't like teh ArcAngel wagon, on first readthrough I couldn't really find a consolidated case and nothing jumped out at me personally.

VOTE: Z7-852

I won't be providing my thoughts of everyone. If anyone wants to know anything specific I'll try to oblige, but we can only lynch one person at a time and I want that person to be Z7. I'm presently doing AA in iso to see what all the fuss is about, but like I said nothing jumped out at me personally whilst reading.

GREAT HOLY GRASSHOPPERS

FINALLY

someone gets me

;u;

More information every player gives easier it is to see if they are honest or if they behave oddly. By withholding information you are not lying but you are not being honest.

I personally agree with this, but I have seen convincing arguments for the other side too.

I also disagree with VisceraEyes on the idea (#705) of focusing on one player. We know there are 2 scums in the game. If we focus on one we lose track of the other. On other hand if we think everybody can be suspect, we can gather evidence (to one way or the other) on everyone.

That's assuming he's ignoring everyone else just because he's focusing on you.

After VisceraEyes posts I suspect him more and it seems even more likely that goodmorning and VisceraEyes are scum buddies.

Very convenient.

@VE: If I could be so bold as to suggest... I think you might want your next ISO to be Fe. I'd actually be very curious to see a very general sort of feeling about him from you eventually. Also I don't think anyone else is willing to join the Z wagon today, would you be willing to compromise on AA9 if we get to deadline?

@Rev: Show, don't tell. If you think Z is Town, please explain why. You keep making these assertions without any evidence and I don't like it.

[goodmorning]

@VE: Because pretty much everyone else seems to have a strong Townread on him for some reason.

[goodmorning]

Who is everyone else?

My "everyone else" is everyone not me, VE, or AA9.

I'm doing so already, and people who might be tempted will be MORE tempted if you do so - right now I just look like a crazy person with a loner vote - but with your help I CAN BE A BANDWAGON LEADER!!!

I VOTED HIM FIRRRSTTTT
NYAH NYAH

So you're not a crazy person with a loner vote.

[goodmorning]

I'm trying to figure out what 729-732 add up to.

[goodmorning]

So who's willing to compromise and vote Z with us?

[goodmorning]

I think we only need one more.

[goodmorning]

Well I tried to push him when the slot was still Fro, but then ff tripped my scumdar, and then after Fro rose back up my scumranks nobody wanted to agree with me so I gave up.

So it's not just the latter part of the Day. Mac, somewhere in my ISO is a Fro case or five. I'll find them when I get back but I have class nowwwww

[goodmorning]

^Was responding to 762.

[goodmorning]

...providing ONE scumread means you are tunneling the fuck out of Z and not really focusing on anyone else?

NO SIR
THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT
(Self-reference: Newbie 1308. First few pages I kept my reads to myself, giving one scumread only. BUT REALLY I WAS WATCHING EVERYONE. Then BAM I came out with a readslist and said "let's lynch these three" and by George, if we had we would have won.)

If it comes down to it and deadline is upon us, I'll hammer AA for the flip, but for the record I'm against it and think she'll flip town.

Don't like the above quote either; one of the "threatening Angel" posts I feel you are making here. And it feels like you were preparing for her townflip once you hammered her as though you were scum.

It was a response to my question of whether he was willing to compromise. It was, and is, not a threat.

@GM - Z is not Fro.

Yes he is. I suggest you check the front post if you disbelieve me.

@ff: I DON'T DO OMGUS

Her case on Fropome was not even that organized IMO.

That's because I made bits of a case in lots of places.

He is continually updating it with new information, thinking about how everyone fits into the game, and re-analyzing constantly.

In what universe? It's been the exact same one every single time, except that he seemingly shuffles his bottom three almost at random.

I don't understand at all why anyone is following your lead here, and it's pretty telling that the four people I think least of are voting for "Fropome" here.

For some reason, this is the phrase that has pissed me off the most in my entire Mafia career.

I can't tell you what a relief it is with 2 days to go to be talking with someone who is both making sense and posts more than once every day or 2. This has been one of the most frustrating game days I can recall. Right now, I don't even care what your alignment is. Just having ideas to bounce off is an improvement.

Am I chopped liver then? ;_;

I'll go try and consolidate my major points on Fro and then remind you all that Z has done

literally nothing that looks Town even a little

.

[goodmorning]

@ff: Let's be fair, when the game stagnates for want of content from a couple slots we're allll chopped liver.

[goodmorning]

yabbut we've been waiting around forever for you to show up. Watching paint dry would be high drama after the last week.

OH GIRL
SAY IT

@VE: I don't know, should you? Fe doesn't really strike me as being in the game. What's the phrase I used last time I saw that? "In a different plane of existence" I think it might have been.

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: case on Fro

For a start, the whole 35-overreaction thing that never got resolved. No, "It was sarcasm" is not a resolution.
167 struck me as incredibly scummy, mostly because it attempted to use my own language in a dishonest way in an attempt to ridicule and avoid my point. It is also scummy because he completely failed to answer my questions.
As I mention in 182, "he asks a question or makes an accusation, I respond, then he never mentions it again." Giving up like that indicates no real concern over answers; it's questioning/arguing for the sake of appearance only.
My p.10 response to Fro in 313 has numerous rebuttals to his arguments, which is relevant to this case because most of his arguments are misreps or avoid the real question.
Also my response to him in [post349[/post], especially this:

Even if dishonesty were defensive, which I'm not going to get into because it's largely irrelevant, this is not an answer. It is not even close to an answer. When I say something like "you're being defensive" and can't provide any examples of such, I expect to be laughed at all the way to the gallows. I don't sit there smugly and expect to be lauded for making claims I can't back up.

I can back it up. Your dishonesty¹ consists in how you spin narratives post-hoc², you may be lying to yourself³ but it's for others to judge alongside me if you're talking consistently and making coherent cases, or not. I've said what I meant, that you continue to misrepresent it is dishonest⁴, that you interpret into stuff things which never happened is dishonest⁵, and you use of terminology in order to slant the narrative is also dishonest⁶. If that's how you are irl, then ⁷

1. I did not ask for instances of dishonesty. I asked for instances of defensiveness.
1a. Come to think of it, you really didn't give any instances of dishonesty either.
2. "Post-hoc" is defined (second definition) by Merriam-Webster as "formulated after the fact". Provide an example of me doing this.
3. I am neither lying to myself nor to the rest of the playerlist.
4. Does it ever get boring to repeat your unfounded statements?
5. Much of playing Mafia is the individual's interpretation of others' actions. There is nothing inherently dishonest about personal interpretations.
6. Terminology. Really. I'm not the one slinging Latin here.
"Slanting the narrative?" Really? History (and narrative) is written by the victors. At the moment I'm supposedly a scumread of a high number of people, I don't think I'd have a chance of "slanting the narrative" if I tried (and I wouldn't, because I prefer that people not just blindly sheep)
7. Go fuck yourself.

This should be clear enough, but it probably won't be. They will say "but how does any of that make him Scum?" It's because in every one of those posts I continued to point out his blatant misreps but never got answers.

Uh, my current lynchpool would be Z, Fe, and one of {AA9, Mac}, I haven't decided yet.

[goodmorning]

I'm asking you because I'm certainly not going to vote for myself LMAO

I think there's much less chance of a lynch on you than on Z, AA9, or even me, if that's what you're asking.

[goodmorning]

GM, is there a large part of original material in 830 that got imbedded in a quote?

No, that quote was included on purpose.

Changing things twice is not a lot.

[goodmorning]

That said, I agree with you in most things, GM seems to be going after Frop, while VE seems to be going after Z, neither is taking into account the whole slot imo.

NOPE
I am saying that I personally don't think Z has done anything too outlandishly scummy except a little bit of badtiming on vote changes, but that the outlandish scumminess of Fro means I maintain a strong scumread on that slot.

This really bothers me considering that back when Casey was all "I'll give you reads laters, lol nope", GM was trying to deflect attention from him, and I always felt a bit suspicious about it.

Again, NOPE
I never tried to deflect attention from him even a little bit. Please demonstrate where you think I did so.

This VE wagon is BAD BAD BAD and I intend to be INCREDIBLY RAGE if it goes through

SO RAGE THAT I ACCIDENTALLY THE GRAMMAR

I do not like the VE bandwagon one teensy tinesy bit.

THIS THIS THIS

PEDIT: DERAS YOU ARE SILLY
ASKING FOR EVENTUAL COMPROMISE VOTE =/= ASKING FOR HAMMER

[goodmorning]

UGH AA

STOP CHALLENGING MY PERCEPTIONS OF YOU

UGH DERAS

STOP BEING FE'S SECOND HAND AND START THINKING LOGICALLY

[goodmorning]

People I will not vote today, even if it would be as a compromise: VE, ff, Deras
People I would vote today as a compromise only: AA9, Rev
People I would happily vote today: Z, Fe, Mac


PEDIT: CAPSLOCK FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
DON'T BE A DICKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

[goodmorning]

FFFFFFFF
KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON
YOU ARE SUPER COOL
KEEP IT UP
AND STUFF

[goodmorning]

@ FF: BUT PROBABLY DON'T ONLY VOTE HIM FOR BEING A DICK

THAT'S USUALLY A NULLTELL

@Deras: None of those attempt in any way to deflect attention from Carey. I use several points (meta, speed of read buildup) to ascertain that I believe his slot to be Town. One person saying "I think this guy is Town" =/= one person saying "we should ignore this guy".
IN FACT, I would think that it would increase attention on him since you all thought I was Scum.

Fe is playing very close to the belt, and he's made false arguments one too many times for me to feel comfortable. Mac is misrepping A LOT recently, AND he's been buddying me. If you don't find the case against Z to be enough, I'm questioning why you don't think misrepping is scummy.

That's the most basic basics of the Fe case in my boat, you may want to ask ff if it's not convincing enough for you.

IC PART OF THE POST TIME: EVERYONE STOP PAIRHUNTING BEFORE FLIPS THAT IS SO EFFING COUNTERPRODUCTIVE

[goodmorning]

I TYPE SLOW OK


I HAVE A PROBLEM

[goodmorning]

THE PROBLEM IS CALLED CAPSLOCK

[goodmorning]

That is L-1, I think. If anyone intends to hammer, keep a vote off until you've stated intent and let me respond.

[goodmorning]

@Fe: Alright, give me a second. In the meantime: Why voting me, other than "for Deras"?

[goodmorning]

Also let me repeat that if you want to vote me, keep a lid on and state intent first.

[goodmorning]

OH
@Fe again: What did you find scummy about 800 and806?

[goodmorning]

@Fe: Second paragraph in 666 is an example of a misrep from you and I don't see explanation though I could easily be missing it.

@Deras: I was saying "this is why I am not voting him." I was not saying "don't vote him," but even if I were that still =/= "ignore him."

IC answer: It's counterproductive because you can start building cases based solely on associative tells, letting actual tells from others go unnoticed even, and then if you lynch one and they flip Town it's back to the drawing board AND it can falsely make the other one look Town to you as well even if they aren't.
Basically it's just that you don't know. Now, if you say "I think X is Scum. I think Y is Scum. I also think they happen to make sense as a team." that's a bit different. But I'm seeing both blended together and honestly it's better to just wait for a flip, any flip, before pair speculation.

PEDIT @Fe:
1) That slot is Scum. I am about 95% likely to quit Newbie games altogether if I'm wrong about him.
2) Yeah, well, that's you.
3) Sorry I'm not that good at reaction tests? A more complete metaing of me might clear that up for you.
4) Yes, because you have been incredibly unspecific this game by using lots of words. Let me rephrase: Why use 800 as a justification for voting when sever people pointed out to you how utterly shit it was?

NOT CLICKING YOUR STUPID GODDAMNED LINKS IS NOT A SCUMSLIP IN ANY UNIVERSE

WHAT THE FUCK GAME ARE YOU PLAYING BECAUSE IT'S SURELY NOT THIS ONE

[goodmorning]

SEVER SHOULD BE SEVERAL

SEVER IS MORE APPROPRIATE TO MY MOOD

FF I LOVE YOU AND I'M SORRY I EVER DOUBTED YOU

[goodmorning]

Nope. Just a reaffirmation of my Townread on her. She's been moving up the townranks for the past 10 or so pages.

[goodmorning]

@Fe: You're missing what I'm trying to get at, and I don't know any way to word it better.

[goodmorning]

But what I find most concerning is the fact that GM gives Mac an unequivocal town read because of it.

It's the magic of meta. He's been dropping in the ranks for a while though, as you may see from my more recent readslists and my very recent calling him out for buddying.

Spoiler: Response to Z

I presume that scum wouldn't likely lynch a fellow scum.

IC: Yes they would, it's called bussing and it's extremely common.

Looks like [VE] is fishing a easy lynch and when he didn't get one he switched the target.

If he was looking for an easy lynch the AA lynch was

right there

.

Also

goodmorning

jumped (#721) into lynching party so fast.

No. I have been voting that slot for a full 2 weeks. This is nothing new in the slightest.

Still it looks like She thinks this slot is scummy because how my Fropome played the game. This seems little hollow reason at this stage of came.

Really?

Really?

Still it seem that she is hanging too strongly on her reads about Fropome (#851) and not weighing latest facts more.

Nothing

in your posts is even a

slight

towntell. NOTHING. That's a pretty late fact.

I also agree that using CAPS (#856) makes someone seems frustrated and scummy.

Or it makes them look like they love Capslock. The last game I was in that used THIS MUCH CAPS was Newbie 1326, in which I was Town, and not frustrated.

What comes to goodmornings IC comment (#869) it couldn't be more wrong. By creating possible teams we can eliminate people outside. Using this we can focus more on suspicious players. Also thinking ahead is always good even before the flip. Not saying we shouldn't focus on other tells but scumpairing gives us more possible information as long as logic behind it's valid.

NO. NO.
1. In my role as IC I cannot lie about theory.
2. If the theory I am discussing is subjective, I will preface with "in my opinion".
3. This theory is not subjective. THERE IS NO SITUATION IN WHICH ONE SHOULD SPECULATE ON TEAMS D1 (in this setup).

Goodmorning also didn't give reason (#851) (#857) why she didn't want to see VisceraEyes to get lynched.

Because the fact that I've had a Townread on that slot for the past 30 pages is completely irrelevant.

There really can't be two scums in goodmorning, ArcAngel9 and Z7-852 set.

I don't see why not, though it is unlikely at this point.

There for I must conclude that VisceraEyes and goodmorning must be a team (untill I get more information). Currently I'am not willing to lynch anyone else except one of these two.

Really? Why not me and Mac or AA9 and Rev or yourself and VE? There is not a shred of logic being used here.

@mod

Going to request a replace out because as of late I've been way too busy to keep up with any of my games. Good luck guys!

Well... yay?
Keeping up the trend of ridiculous amounts of replacements is fun?

@Mod: will we get a deadline extension for this?

[goodmorning]

And what do you have to say about 914?

[goodmorning]

GM must go first.!!!

I most assuredly will not.

...waiting on GM's replies to an earlier post before I decide if she's worthy of today's lynch.

Point it out again? This thread grew by 5 pages while I was in class and I have no idea what post you're talking about. Apparently I missed it while reading.

Unlike GM, I don't care what other people think about me.

What does this even mean? There has been an incredible amount of (false!) ad hominem slung in this thread and it's getting irritating.

She just doesn't want to be bothered with playing the game well, she just wants to play it her way and damn the consequences. It's in such opposition to the way I try to play it's remarkable. It's also very anti-town.

1. Stop violating the primary etiquette rule of the internet.*
2. Just because I use gut and meta does not make me a bad player, a scummy player, or an anti-Town player. Just because I occasionally miss things in thread just means I'm not a robot. I'm human. Humans miss things and humans make mistakes.
3. Stop violating the primary etiquette rule of the internet.*
4. I would not have been approved to IC if I were that horrible.

@EVERYONE: That Fe is more willing to lynch fffff than he is to lynch Mac or even Rev should speak volumes to anyone who's even glanced at this game.

I have the same feelings about everyone as before.

_{*primary etiquette rule of the internet: DON'T BE A DICK}

[goodmorning]

Let's lynch EU

YES

speak volumes of what, though?

SCUMMINESS

who is goodmorning's vote on?

I think Z still, though I'd be delighted to lynch Fe or Mac today.

[goodmorning]

GoodMorning, why is your vote on Z? if you want to lynch Eye?

Because I would be happy with a lynch on any of {Z, Fe, Mac}.

@Mac: I think the instance was indeed you buddying. It's not necessarily a scumtell, but it's something I want to look at.
The instance you had with me getting excited to see a familiar, competent face is just that: excitement to see a familiar, competent face.

[goodmorning]

Hey I want some of that

blame

CREDIT too, having replaced 2 days from deadline and having 2nd highest post count. ^^

Having checked that: WHYYYYYYYYYYY


Hello GIF, I've heard good things about you. Catch up quick, OK, I'm sure everyone will be super excited to hear you.

[goodmorning]

Timing and situation.

[goodmorning]

Timing and situation.

elaborate plz

He's said it throughout the game, whereas I confined it to early on.

PEDIT

Vote: Fe

L-1.

[goodmorning]

Who the hell is Fe? Also plz don't hammer until I finish reading plz.

Has been stated that Eye Urn = Iron = Fe.

[goodmorning]

GM seems like she's gonna explode on #182.

You ain't seen nothin' yet.

[goodmorning]

@EVERYONE: That Fe is more willing to lynch fffff than he is to lynch Mac or even Rev should speak volumes to anyone who's even glanced at this game.

This, for a start.

@Deras:

None of those attempt in any way to deflect attention from Carey. I use several points (meta, speed of read buildup) to ascertain that I believe his slot to be Town. One person saying "I think this guy is Town" =/= one person saying "we should ignore this guy".
IN FACT, I would think that it would increase attention on him since you all thought I was Scum.

Fe is playing very close to the belt, and he's made false arguments one too many times for me to feel comfortable.

Mac is misrepping A LOT recently, AND he's been buddying me. If you don't find the case against Z to be enough, I'm questioning why you don't think misrepping is scummy.

That's the most basic basics of the Fe case in my boat

, you may want to ask ff if it's not convincing enough for you.

Apparently I literally have answered this before in very simple fashion. I'll add now another thing I've mentioned before: none of his posts seem particularly connected to the game.

[goodmorning]

^@Deras

[goodmorning]

Stream-of-consciousness is a very good way to try and get a read on people. That's not what I see from him.

@Deras: I'll try and answer tomorrow, just looking at your post is giving me a bit of a headache.

[goodmorning]

^Starting new bandwagons is incredibly dynamic play and usually comes from Town, IIRC.

[goodmorning]

Allow me to summarize the last 20something posts:
WELL YOU UNVOTED SOMEONE WHO WAS AT L-1
WELL YOU TOO
WELL THAT WAS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS
NUH UH
YUH HUH
NUH UH
YUH HUH
WELL I AGREE WITH ONE SIDE OVER THE OTHER
WELL SHUT UP CAUSE I DON'T
NUH UH
YUH HUH
NUH UH
YUH HUH

Can we not clutter up the thread with this? I agree that it was implied in ff's unvote that she was concerned about a replacement derphammering. Now that we have a consensus from the three highest contributors can we let it go and not make GIF read useless stuff?
(note: the first half of the last sentence is a joke. the last half is serious)

[goodmorning]

Do you want to explain why the fuck you're getting into a pointless fucking argument with me? She JUST said it was implied. Are you saying she's lying? That she did NOT imply that she would revote? Is that what you're saying?

Then you're arguing that you didn't pick up the implication. I didn't say ANYTHING ABOUT whether or not you picked up the implication or not. But you can't "disagree that it was implied" when she said not FIVE posts ago that it was implied unless you're calling feryl a liar. Are you calling feryl a liar Mac?

STAHP

[goodmorning]

How many times does one excuse "sorry I misread that" before one stops taking it as benign skimming and starts taking it as scummy misconstruing?

I intend to answer this question of myself before D2.

My personal answer would be that it depends on the player. But GOOD LUCK COMING UP WITH SOME LESS PITHY STATEMENT

[goodmorning]

Do any of you truly believe that any of what I did was indicative of alignment?

This sentence stands out to me as VERY interesting. Surprised nobody else saw it.

[goodmorning]

@ff: For me, that whole first paragraph looks like a smoking gun. But I recognize that not everyone reads like I do, so I pointed out that sentence in particular as it is the one that gave me the most pause.

[goodmorning]

Are you trying to figure out the motivation behind the behavior?

If you want an answer to that: this is a game, and if being 100% perfect at it is going to make it un-fun for me (it would), then I'm not going to try to be 100% perfect.

He's said it throughout the game

, whereas I confined it to early on.

Did you ever post some "throughout the game" examples of what you are talking about here?

Not that I recall. I don't really want to either.

I'll go back after posting this and look though.

So the question becomes: do we stay the course with an Eye lynch or do we switch gears into an Angel lynch? Obviously Angel will want to weigh in, but I suspect she'll just fly off the handle and complain about circle-jerking some more, so I doubt that will be much help. What do you think?

Frankly I could go either way, but there's a preexisting wagon on Eye. :/ What do you think?

I know this question was probably mostly directed at ff, but I obviously mostly prefer Fe.

I'm tired of finding myself on wagons with my null and scum reads.

Why? Why would it matter who else is on the wagon?

Is there a specific case against AA9 except for overreaction?

My issue with that slot was mostly with AT3.

Also could you elaborate on the "not particularly connected to the game" part? Do you mean he's just trying to appear active, but not actively contributing?

GM, did you answer this?

I thought I had but apparently not.
I mean that his posts tend to be less focused on the game as it is? It's another one of those gut-type things, but there are some symptoms like finding external reasons to vote/unvote (like 814 for example) and lack of real scumhunting or pushing (though YMMV). THE LACK OF PUSHING IS A BIG ONE. In fact, the only wagon he really started was the AA9 one, and that was for this reason: "I'm very suspicious of how ArcAngel has disappeared from this game (but not from the site) after making a bunch of nonsense arguments that disregarded basic probability. That slot has said some very enigmatic things, but

I'd put them all to being differences of playstyle

so far. After some consideration,

I think it's more than just her being terrible town.

"

SO YEAH. THERE YOU GO DERAS, I FINALLY ANSWERED IT.

VOTE: FE

[goodmorning]

I really don't want to go through all 111 posts of his right now actually, but whatever.

Side note: not exactly buddying, but the whole mediating the disagreement between you and I whilst being on my side was weirdddd

[goodmorning]

Also his copying of a lot of my reads/points early on, like the easy target classification and my read on you

[goodmorning]

Then in 517 takes a "my bad" easy way out of all that

[goodmorning]

693 has a little bit of something that could be buddying depending on what you had for lunch

[goodmorning]

Yeah, 693 is the big one. Hmmm.

[goodmorning]

If an Fe wagon won't build, I'll hammer AA9 in roughly 20 hours' time.
Consider that intent, and I wish you'd claim, AA9.

Lynch Z7 and Eye tomorrow please
and Ffery is anti town as fuck
GIF is obvious VI.

GM, you should vote me now, i want you to vote me and prove these idiots how pathetic they are with their game play.

Who do you think you are?

What the fuck is this post?

I second this question.

[goodmorning]

GM how do you feel about being in agreement with Mac on Eye?

It doesn't bother me. For all I know he could be faking agreement as Scum, faking agreement as Town, actually in agreement as Scum, or actually in agreement as Town.
Basically what I am trying to say is that he could be for real or not, either alignment, and as long as I know how I feel I don't really give a shit how other people feel unless they're going to vote the way I want them to or it pertains to my read on them.

[goodmorning]

The above probably looks like drunkpost, but it isn't.

[goodmorning]

Honestly I'm still holding out hope for the Fe wagon to rise from the ashes again.

[goodmorning]

How does AA9's flounce rate? Was that a scummy flounce? Towny flounce?

Uh... I don't know? Maybe just a little bit on the Town side? Flounce?

[goodmorning]

I have to say if she were Scum she'd probably have just stopped already.

[goodmorning]

Your guess is as good as mine.

[goodmorning]

I wouldn't expect that sort of thing from AA9 anyway, but the type of player Fe is I would think wouldn't just say "I'm tired of it and I don't wanna give reads or reasons."

[goodmorning]

(unless he was Scum)

[goodmorning]

Something like what ff said: "When I'm town with a bandwagon on me, even if I give up on shaking the lynch I still have a town win as my goal. I work to the bitter end trying to refine my reads and leave the best cases I can." I think Town!Fe would be likely to do that rather than basically tell everyone to fuck off.

[goodmorning]

It means it's his birthday.

[goodmorning]

Yes and based on the quality of his play, yes.

[goodmorning]

That's her playstyle as any alignment pretty much though. She's definitely got me in flip-flop mode.

[goodmorning]

As I've said, I'm willing to hammer AA9 this evening but would MUCH prefer an Fe lynch.

[goodmorning]

So it's not like we're really really in danger of a no lynch.

[goodmorning]

Well I don't see an Fe wagon, so

Vote: AA9

And that's a wrap.

[goodmorning]

Right now, Eye would be my first choice for lynch tomorrow.

YAY

[goodmorning]

I still think Fro's posting was scummy as hell, but I'll understand if no-one wants to agree.

[goodmorning]

In case of my impending death, my top scumreads are Z and Fe in that order. I think VE is obvTown, though I hesitate to say it in those words. ff also seems likely to be Town at this point.

[goodmorning]

Hiiiii guys.
I don't know how much I'll be able to post over the next few days but I'll really really try.

Vote: Fe

What else is there to say at this point? I'm guessing the person GIF wanted to talk to was me (though maybe Fe I guess?) but I don't really know what else there is. GIF. IF IT WAS ME I AWAIT YOUR CONVERSATION.

I will posit that when Fe flips Scum Mac will be the next one we go after. Yes, I am quite sure. Like >90% sure.

[goodmorning]

TRACEYYYYYY

I WILL BE LIMITED ACCESS TIL TUESDAYYYYYYY


NEVER FEAR, THIS GAME IS MY #1 PRIORITY

"Limited access" "#1 priority"

YOU HATE ME DON'T YOU

Noted. <3

[goodmorning]

</3

I'll tryyyyyyyy

BUT EXAMS ARE REARING THEIR UGLY BEASTIE HEADS AGAIN

ARGH OH NO




MY LEG

[goodmorning]

No posts in 12 hours?

PLAY THE GAME DAMMIT

[goodmorning]

Why Deras do you think? Was he the universally recognized most towny player?

Personally I think Scum is likely to have killed him either because they thought he was a PR or because they thought he was unlikely to be protected. Or both.

About the two of you being alive... Interesting.

[goodmorning]

What's interesting about us both being alive if you actually believe the reasons you just stated?

Because a 50-50 chance on either of you would probably have been a better gamble than a 100 on Deras, which would imply that mayyyyyyybe one of you isn't Town.
BUT THIS IS NK WIFOM AND NOT REAL STUFF HENCE INTERESTING

[goodmorning]

So yeah. First of all, can you explain again why do you think Eye is scum again?

From 1287: I mean that his posts tend to be less focused on the game as it is? It's another one of those gut-type things, but there are some symptoms like finding external reasons to vote/unvote (like 814 for example) and lack of real scumhunting or pushing (though YMMV). THE LACK OF PUSHING IS A BIG ONE. In fact, the only wagon he really started was the AA9 one, and that was for this reason: "I'm very suspicious of how ArcAngel has disappeared from this game (but not from the site) after making a bunch of nonsense arguments that disregarded basic probability. That slot has said some very enigmatic things, but

I'd put them all to being differences of playstyle so far

. After some consideration,

I think it's more than just her being terrible town

."

Do any of you truly believe that any of what I did was indicative of alignment?

This sentence stands out to me as VERY interesting. Surprised nobody else saw it.

From 1070: That Fe is more willing to lynch fffff than he is to lynch Mac or even Rev should speak volumes to anyone who's even glanced at this game.
From 869: Fe is playing very close to the belt, and he's made false arguments one too many times for me to feel comfortable.

I hope this satisfies.

[goodmorning]

GoodMorning: A Love Story Between Host and Player

I died laughing, you've no idea.

[goodmorning]

Except that of all the players in this game Deras probably held the least sway. What would be the point of anyone killing him because they were or weren't suspected by him?

[goodmorning]

Mhm, I thought for sure he'd have something to say about one of my posts but he didn't. So there's that.

[goodmorning]

@GM: I see your points. It makes me want to have a conversation with eye now

Really? Just makes me want to lynch him.

As to your thing on Mac... interesting.

[goodmorning]

@Mod: I think Z and Fe can safely be prodded now.

@GIF: What... what are you doing? I thinK I have to side with Mac on this one.

@Mac: It's not that big a deal, it's just a very small deal.

[goodmorning]

OR ARE YOU SCUM

...just kidding, I'm pretty sure the scums are Fe/Z.

[goodmorning]

Z seems to be everyone's Townread.

[goodmorning]

To me it looks weird that

goodmorning

is so certain (#1390) about Eye urn being a scum. Sure he acted little odd at the end of the day 1 but we all were getting to edge in there.

No. He acted odd all throughout D1. I am around 90% confident that he is Scum.

When goodmorning hammered a townie that at least didn't improve her case so after night I replaced my vote on her.

That was a compromise hammer and we all know it. I said as much in 857.

goodmorning also have been pushing AA wagon from day 1 (#623) and quite strongly in my opinion. After AA was flipped town that makes her look little more suspicious.

-Being wrong is suspicious? YOU had AA9 as a scumread through the end of the day. I did not. That should make you scummier than me, by your argument (which is not a very good argument)
-623 is approximately 623 posts before the eventual lynch. Things change.
-Besides this, 623 includes AA9 as one of three possible scumpool members. Not the only one and certainly not a strong push. AND I rescinded that read a bit later when Mac plummeted into the bottom 3 and AA9 started to behave Townishly.

Stop misrepping please.

[goodmorning]

EBWODP:

No. He acted odd all throughout D1. I am around 90% confident that he is Scum. Do you get people to have confidence in your vote and your reads if you say, "Well, I'm pretty sure he's Scum, but I'm not positive..." No. You don't.

[goodmorning]

UGH CAN WE PLEASE JUST LYNCH Z?!?! GOD

I HAVE BEEN ASKING THIS ALL GAME BUT EVERYONE SEEMS TO THINK HE'S TOWN!!!!!!!!
SCIENCE DAMN IT

[goodmorning]

Guysssssssss

just decide whether he's Town or Scum already


you're giving me whiplash.

[goodmorning]

Also this noncommittal behaviour from ffffff is making me a tad nervous.