Newbie 1388 Nexlexia Game Over

[Titus]

Do you have the page before that Yessiree? Yes I replaced Rika.

I had posted all my scum notes. I don't want to recreate them but I will if necessary. Short version...

Nobody's Special, Dr. Pepper and Yesirree all seem scummy on one level or another. However, Yes and NS seem to be on different teams. Bob is a null read, which scares me. Is Yes flips scum, Bob is likely his scum ally. If Yes flips scum, then NS and DR. P are likely scum IMO.

[Titus]

This was in my notes but got lost. Also, I made a typo. If Yes is town, then you and NS are likely scum. Obviously, there are not three scums, and context should have alerted that there was a typo.

I'm starting from the position that Yes and NS are on opposing factions. Given the degree the pair have tunnelled each other, this is likely true.

Therefore, if Yes is scum (probably true), then NS is likely town. Bob then is likely Yessiree's ally halting the lynch and the pair are generally sheeping each other. The last vote count I saw had both Yessiree and Bob as the only two voting someone... but I cannot remember who that was.

If Yes turns up town, then NS is likely scum. Your posts at the end seemed sheepish. Also, I cannot see why you made a big deal over a question. The whole reason the group wanted to lynch me at the start was asking questions about site meta. You jumping on that train seems more opportunistic than reasoned. A few of your posts seemed to try to send the implicit message NS is town, without directly stating such, almost as if you're trying to subtly manipulate the group.

[Titus]

The whole reason the group wanted to lynch me at the start of our first game was me asking questions about site meta. I find it odd you jump on a single question and call it a scum slip, Dr. P.

[Titus]

Comments: I find it ironic that Bacde says Pebro is fence sitting when he himself does this ("I dont like a yessiree lynch", "Ahh im coming around to the idea of a yessiree lynch"
Pebro, look into PIRATE MAFIA, Mafia on the Shore for my town losses and The Half Baked Curse to see if there is any difference in my town games

At the time Bacde posted he was coming around, I made the case that whatever Yessiree was we'd gain significant information on who was scum. That's not sheeping but changing one's mind.

Unvote

(I think Rika had a vote and I want to make sure it's off because it wasn't on Yes).

[Titus]

Dr. Pepper, a scum with one game underneath knows that hammering opportunistically and cutting the day short is a fast route to a lynch. Again, look what happened to James May in our game.

Bob seems to be new here. He didn't know whether he had to live or not. It seems to me, upon reading this, that Bob was wanting to know if he'd win even if dead or just the living town members would win. This type of question is the exact reason we have ICs and SEs. It is also why we discourages the self-voting Yessiree did. I'm not saying that the statement wasn't a scum slip, but I wouldn't call it one yet either. I'm 75/25 against that being a scum slip.

Fence sitting + sudden vote changes pretty much is the definition of sheeping. Yeah, you didn't use the word sheeping but you pretty much called Bacde a sheeper.

I'll grab and bold the posts that I felt were manipulative coming from you. I would recommend you put together a statement though.

[Titus]

Not knowing the exact win condition still feels like a slip to me. Even as scum, you know the town win if you lose. Simple as that, my vote stays.

I should make a catch-up post since evryone here posts while I am asleep. Fuck the no walls thing, I have school in a few hours.

JKM, you said that everyone suspecting could be scum latching on to him in 302 but its probably not the case, by virtue of saying that youre calling everyonre suspecting yes as being town? Then aside from yes, who is his partner, if you think yes scum = bob town, which I have no idea how that association was made. Also, by you stating that what you said was said by everyone else, is the parroting I was talking about.

I just loooove how yes calls JKM's above post laughable because its full of attentional and interpretive bias when his posts have been the same damn thing

"Lynch NS for being a bad player"

"Bacde, you seem to be good at hunting" - buddying
"Yo Bacde, how you gonna respond to that?"

Also yes, cockiness isnt a scum tell but cut it out and earn it.
And why self -vote? Because the suspicion of gene wore off when he did it? Now granted, you diodnt have as many votes for you at that time compared to gene, so it maybe isnt one of those tactics, but self voting is only valid if youre scum and only if its a self hammer to devoid town of information. SO why self vote?

"NS will win the game for me?" - I find no town motivation in this post, the fact that you had to say me instead of us, kinda shows a self interest which is anti-town in itself. Are you playing for town or are you playing to survive?

JKM, why would you think they are bussing?

CDB's vote is weird, JKM asks why isnt everyone voting for yessirree, then one post later he votes for yessirree, and after yes's self vote. Does the self vote make him scum? But anyway, do you think Bob is town now?

323 "I say we found a whole in your logic." I could see this as newb scum saying "Me and my partner found a whole in your logic"

Its ironic you called NS for tunneling

Bacde, a lot of people say NS is scum. You think he is town, but you've doubted it because you've never thought of him as town? So whats different? Also by saying this are you saying he is "too towny to be town"?

I've never played with NS and I think he's town in this game.

So Bacde expresses suspicion of yes's self vote, then says you dont like the wagon. What?

NS's reasons for why yes is scum and yes's reasons for why NS is scum are both playstyle tells. SMH.

Pebro: "I dont think jumping wagons is necessarily scummy" while voting for someone who jumped a band wagon after asking yes why he suspected that person. Fishy.

I highly doubt NS and yes are scum together, nobody busses day 1 in newbies unless one is at L-1.

Bolded the parts that made me think... wait a minute, this post is a subtle defense of NS.

Also, it is POSSIBLE that Yessiree and NS are both town. I find it very remote. A) The tunnelling, B) Yessiree's self vote C)The inability of both of them to work with the group at large.

[Titus]

I'm out for my night. I'm in the US. I will be back tomorrow. If anyone has any questions, or wants me to recreate my longform post, let me know and I will when I have the opportunity to do so.

[Titus]

@JKR, I think Yessiree is at L-2 now and that we can hammer if we want. If the day is close is close to ending.

My issue is that being the hammer on a mislynch isn't the problem. It was that James May cut off days of conversation. You would be doing the same and pretty much announcing your scum status. You would hammer but closer to the dead line.

I am not attacking everyone on Bob, in fact my former account was on Bob. Saying there's not enough info for me to vote someone is not attacking everyone who did. I also don't have to know Bob's status to see a scummy vote on Bob.

Grabbing the post where you refuse to give an official stance on NS.

[Titus]

I havent given a statement on NS, yet I also havent given a statement on Rika, CDB, JKM, and Pebro. Your associative tell doesnt make sense. Also, what makes you so sure that NS and yes are going to flip differently, this implies that at least one of them is scum, when it could actually be possible that a town vs town is happening.

You take back any read of the majority of the players here. This really sounds like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. No I was claiming NS was town directly but also claiming to have no statement on him. Pick one.

I have heard enough for my vote to go on Dr. Pepper. Willing to change to Yessiree though.

Vote:Dr. Pepper

[Titus]

Oh and Yessiree was at L minus 1 when I made that post. Not hammering with that much time left when my assertions can be discussed. After all, I was in the game for five minutes at that point. That post was a clear intent to hammer. I don't think I used the buzzwords though.

Days should NEVER be cut really short unless there's an emergency. Permission to hammer does not equal permission to cut day short.

I still think Yessiree is scummy but I was the bloody hammer vote until JK changed his vote. Not cutting the day short on my first replacement post.


Your post having no official stance comes after your defense of NS. Hence why you are trying to be subtle in your teammate defense.

[Titus]

My issue is that being the hammer on a mislynch isn't the problem.

.

That is taken out of context. The problem is that the last voter is not always scum. Sometimes hammerers are wrong. That's what that means.

[Titus]

Wait wait wait, how exactly are you sure that yessirree is a mislynch??

Slip. Again.

Not sure where you get this from.

[Titus]

I never said the last voter is always scum. But you literally said "my issue with a hammer on a mislynch". Why are you so sure its a mislynch???

The context of my post was saying that the last voter on a mislynch is not always scum. I STILL AM NOT SURE WHERE YOU ARE GETTING I SAID THINK YESSIREE IS A MISLYNCH. I had put you and him on opposite sides. When I became more convinced of your scum status, I put my vote on you.

Then later you say yes is scummy, while saying "while you defend your partner". Days should never be cut short? Dont weasel your way out of this, its not scummy to cut a day short by like what, 2 days? And how many times do I have to tell you that the James vote was dumb because there was no intent to hammer. Im pretty sure if people agree to a hammer, there is an underlying concession that its okay to end the day.

I'm weaseling because my positions are well reasoned. You are selectively quoting posts to where it is hard to understand you. LOL, I think you're just upset because I caught you.

But oh well, I cant convince scum that they are scum

Agreed, well that I won't convince you that you are scum.

Well, there's a lot of evidence for people to figure out who the real scum are. I think NS and Dr. P are the real scum, not yessiree who was misunderstood. I wasn't expecting Dr. P to go seven degrees of total.

[Titus]

You attacked me cause i said I wasnt opportunistic cause I could have hammered yessirree if I wanted to, i countered by saying that its not scummy. You counter by saying you didnt think hammers on mislynches were scummy. You know he is a mislynch

I always had you as opposing Yessiree. If you're scum, he's likely town. I countered by saying you couldn't hammer AT THAT TIME because hammers with days to go are scummy. You are twisting again. I never said I knew Yessiree was a mislynch but your reaction pretty much confirmed that.

Basically a won game, now who's overconfident? Basically, you've got your two scum reads and you're claiming you have to be right. *sigh*

[Titus]

NS called the team of CBD and Bob

DoctorPepper called the team of Titus(former Rikablu) and Bob

NS had a FoS on Rikablu at the start

DoctorPepper intended to hammer me but didn't after I claimed VT.


What if Bob flips town? Are we back to square one?

If Bob flips town, we look to his strongest defenders as likely being scum. There may be shocking lynches but we are never at square one once we have clear alignments going on.

Dr. Pepper, I think you've been doing your misrepresentations and voting me because I voted for you. I do think your reaction is solely OMG Scum play.

[Titus]

The reasoning for this is, the scum will defend the newbies they feel would owe them a debt of gratitude later on in the game. All they have to do is make sure the defense is weak enough to get the lynch through anyway. It's a tight rope but that's where I'd look. His strongest defenders means those who are the most vocal about his innocence but providing no evidence of such.

EX: OMG, How could you be such an idiot and vote for John?

[Titus]

Holy shit you have got to be kidding me. This is the weakest scum defense I have ever seen. I've misrepped you? 1. Thats false. 2. Youre a hypocrite. 2. I think I've explained why I voted you, your effort to discredit it is weak.

Town win imminent homie

I think I've laid out where you've misrepped me pretty well. The goal should be ensuring everyone communicates their thoughts so we can determine who the scum are. I'm always open to the possibility that I am wrong. However, you are SO fixed on being right that you are trying to shut down Yessiree's communication and bait an anger response from me. It's not happening.

[Titus]

Hey, here's the thing. Scum need not be right. Because they never are unless they are bussing. You saying im fixated on being right is a concession you know im town.

Guys, it so obvious now. Lets just get this over with.

Actually, scum are fixedated on being right in order to persuade people. It's OMG I am so right, sheep me without evidence that's a scum tell. Being open to reason and coordinating the group are scum tells, WTF? Bascially, town plays to you are arrogant asshole I'm the only smart one in the room plays. Again, if everyone's so confident, we don't have a cohesive group that makes it hard to lynch scum. We need to lay our REASONS out on paper.

Good night.

[Titus]

Seems pretty clear that Bacde is trying to change his vote to see who will hammer or push for one.

NS pushed for a fast lynch which shuts off additional scum hunting, in my previously stated opinion, that's scummy. I am willing to hammer if a better target doesn't emerge but I have my reserva tions given Dr. Pepper's explosions and faulty reasoning.

[Titus]

What doesn't make sense about it?

IDK, at first I thought you were like "I'm confused why person A is arguing with person B, so I'll vote for person C instead", but then I had an AHA moment.

What is your aha moment?

Can you post your reads in case Dr. Pepper or someone else hammers to early?

If we are all smart, we can have the equivalent of last wills.

[Titus]

@Titus[deleted post 444], I don't have strong reads on you, minor towny on Bacde. Bacde is asking questions and showing thoughts. Rika made some sound logical posts, but nothing that makes me get a strong town/scum feeling. On your part I'm a bit confused by the subtle defense of NS from Pepper. I wonder if scum subconsciously calls their partner town. I would think they want to avoid that.

JKM, could you try to explain your weird feeling with Pepper?

Bicephalous Bob, what's your top 3 scumlist?

Scum wants their partner to be perceived as town. Yet they cannot be so wedded to the idea that their partner is town to where they cannot bus them. Subtle pre emptive defenses work best especially if their partner is suspected.

[Titus]

What doesn't make sense about it?

IDK, at first I thought you were like "I'm confused why person A is arguing with person B, so I'll vote for person C instead", but then I had an AHA moment.

What is your aha moment?

Can you post your reads in case Dr. Pepper or someone else hammers to early?

If we are all smart, we can have the equivalent of last wills.

Titus, look at the duration I've been at L-1 before JKM unvoted.

I certainly think DoctorPepper has been over-reacting from the exchanges between him and you. Whether or not that's a scum-tell or over-confidence - I can't come to a conclusion yet because all them fucks sitting on my wagon are lurking.

And DoctorPepper, can you do a wall on your case on Titus/Bob team because the exchanges are scattered all over the place, would be good if you can organize it.

What is the duration of the length you (Yessiree) are at L-1 supposed to show me? (Non-aggressive tone) I think if the group decides on a target fast then having them sit at L-1 with a hammer person is a good manuever.

I agree that the Titus Bob argument should be posted. I would like to respond clearly and succintly. Right now, all I see if I'm pissed that no one is voting Titus.

While you're at it Dr. Pepper, please post where my arguments are illogical. I'm nearly certain you have one of the premises wrong but we all have a bias to think we are logical.

[Titus]

Bob, that could be a scum slip on Dr. Pepper's part. It might also mean the "as well" is in relation to my logic rather than his own. I doubt it given the fact I think Dr. P is scum, but it is a possibility. You were just grilled over a question you asked... be really careful about accusing someone else's language of being a scum slip.

[Titus]

Certainly. I have class in a few hours so it wint be long and it doesnt need to be

Rikalbu was a town read of mine until Titus replaced him.

This, in and of itself is not evidence of scumminess. This is someone ELSE roleplaying the account.

Rikalbu voted for Bob when Bob slipped, Im thinking this was to gain town cred, for being the first person to notice the slip. (yeah, I know I said I dont think scum busses this early)

You kinda said this one yourself.

Bob's answers to the slip are subjective. At one point he in 360 he responds to my query by saying "Are you saying that the mafioso knows the town win condition? This is the exact opposite of what youre accusing me off" when its pretty fucking obvious that scum knows town wins if they lose, which is exactly what I said. The question answering from him was dodgy, it indicates he doesnt know how to properly answer the questions because he was caught. In 447 he misreps me.
Another Bob tell aside from the slip and the dodgy question answering is interactions with attackers. He barely goes for Rika and actually supports Totus. But who was the first person who voted for Bob for slipping? Rikalbu. So why not attack him? Bcause youre scummzies.

Nothing Bob's said so far looks like a scum slip to me. I just happen to disagree with the guy who had the account previously. I'm not going to argue for a position I don't believe in solely because the guy previously playing had that position.

Titus on the other hand made me rethink my read on the town Rikalbu slot. Titus enters the game attacking the biggest attacker of Bob, me.

No, I merely put out a theory stating what I thought was the right scenario. It wasn't an attack at all. This is precisely why I think you are overreacting and exploding.

S[h]e then says Im opportunistic, failing to realize that if I was playing as scum I could have hammered by now with minimal consequences because I had approval from some townies (CDB, Bacde) to hammer. She then claims that ending the day early is the scummy part when this isnt true and I can attest that if there people agree to a hammer. Then Im pretty sure they agree its okay to cut the day early. She accuses me of being opportunistic because Im willing to hammer you when I have Bob as my top read, only to say a few posts later "I have a strong scum read on Dr.P but Im willing to vote for yes" hypocrisy.

I wasn't certain you were scum at the time. Plus, I don't really care about how much perceived approval you have for ending the day early. Cutting the day short = less time to scum hunt = a pro scum manuever. Pretty clear here. I'll be consistent with that in EVERY game I play because it is innately obvious that the more organized the town and the more time we are given, the more likely it is we will succeed.

Titus then points out that you are a mislynch. 449 she says that her issue with the hammer on the mislynch isnt the problem, again going to her silly point of "ending the day is scummy". What is the underlying conclusion of this statement? Titus bring an example of a game we both had where I was scum and someone hammered with 10 freaking days left on the deadline without stating intent to hammer. Uses this to compare to me when the context is different. Then later says that the hammer on the mislynch isnt the problem, underlying conclusion is that Titus knows you are a mislynch. She compares the two situations, I said I wasnt opportunistic because I could have hammered you.

She responds by saying the hammer on a

mislynch

isnt the problem

.

The last voter, in and of itself, is not a reason to guilty someone. THAT is the point of that paragraph and you damn well know it by now. I will highlight that the amount of time is argument relevant as to how scummy the individual looks. Even in the case of the guy hammering with ten days left, he was town (game's over so we know that). He was just making a newbie mistake. However, SE's know cutting the day short is bad and gives the town less time to organize. That's bad.

Another slip? Yes it happened. Titus claims me being saying Im right all the time means Im scum. Scum. Is. Never. Ever. Right. Unless. They. Bus. Why? Scum has no need to be right, they know who everyone else is, they know who town is and who scum is. Me being overconfident of my scum reads? Why say Im over confident? Why backtrack later on and claim scum are only fixated with being right to convince people? Why say I think Im right and not say "I know youre wrong" or something to that extent. The difference is subtlety. Saying You think your right, indicates a scum knowing that someone is town. Saying I know youre wrong indicates someone knows he is town and is being pressured as scum by someone. The underlying premise is, Titus knows Im town and knows I caught up with them
This Titus is different from the town Titus in the first game, town Titus is less aggressive and a little sheepy. It seems like Titus got her first scum Role PM and dedcided to "make her buddy seem as town without directly saying so" when she clearly defends Bob as if he was town, while saying he is completely null. What is that?

I'm not getting this. In the other game, I was pressured right from the gate for my word choice (again is it a big shock that I'm defending people's word choice here?). I had to be focused more on avoiding a mislynch rather than scumhunting at first. Once I got that monkey off my back, I began being more aggressive in suggesting scum. I even said that I usually prefer a town leader strategy but I was trying to avoid it there. Here, I've again been forced into a town leader role.

My argument on Bob is that the reasoning on his vote train was bad. One question and people were raking him over the coals. The fact he asked it doesn't make him town or scum. It just is. I wanted to see more thoughts from him before I put him into a category. In fact, I had him as possible scum if Yessiree was scum (which I'm inclined to disbelieve now). I am beginning to think Bob is town but it's a very weak thing. I'm not going to do some illogical play because the guy I'm replacing thought that. I'm my own woman with my own thoughts.

Thats all I have to say (aside from "Im right, can we please just lynch one today and go after the other tomorrow")

Answers are bold italics and underlined.

[Titus]

Hey look. Scum coaching

Telling Bob not to be a hypocrite and judgmental is scum coaching? Wow.

Then I am really schooling you.

[Titus]

1. The only thing I said was I read the slot as town until you came in, because you have been scummy. Pointless point.

I am confused by points one and two.

2. Yes I said it, I even pointed it out. Pointless point.
3. I pointed out that Bob doesnt attack the first person who said he slipped, I never said anything in that statement directed at you. Why answer a statement meant for Bob? Scum defense.

You moan at me for stating that I defended Bob illogically. When I lay out my logic for the Nth time, you claim I'm doing a scum defense. That's kinda a catch 22.

4. Oh dear God, stop with this whole fake towny looking "I dont want to end the day early" BS. Now youre just doing it for town cred because its not scummy to end the day with people's approval. The context between the scenario your comparing it with is different.

I'm doing something I view as townish solely for the town credit...that's your argument? I'm apparently majorly helping guide the town because Ribaku was in desperate need of town cred when I replaced him. [/sarcasm] I don't need cred. I need scum dead.

5. My point was you said the hammer on a mislynch wasnt the problem when youre problem was ending the day early. Stop dodging this. You clearly stated the hammer on a mislynch wasnt the problem when we were reffering to yessirree and I states intent to hammer him. This implies you know he was a mislynch. Stop. Dodging. That.

Not. Dodging. Anything. Grab the entire posts so the group can have the context. They'll see that I'm arguing about point 4 and talking about the abstract rather than the specific.

6. Your a town leader? You've pretty much slipped all over the place. That other game you were so concerned with looking town and you were even less active Day 2. And the fact here is these "points" you addressed towards me do not answer my case against you at all.

This is a ball of discredit right here. Oh you're all over the place, not responsive, and more meta that I twist. You can think I shouldn't be a town leader, that's fine. Yet, my behavior... encouraging analysis, getting information, and directing conversation is that of a town leader.

You should just better stop talking. Or no, keep talking, it incriminates you more for the scum you are.

Telling Bob to be careful about using someone else's language as an argument. Yes, that is coaching.

Again, this is clearly out of context. I was warning Bob not to be a god damn hypocrit in very polite language. He was jumping on you what people had just jumped on him for. I wanted him to see how you felt and see if he stood by his opinion that what you said was a slip or not.

I missed the Bacde question but I always said that the Yessiree lynch would gain us valuable information. He changes his vote with a quote of "Let's see what happens". He's voting and then would study the behavior of those coming afterwards for its scumminess value. If someone immediately hammered or began pushing for a hammer, it should indicate scumminess. Obviously, he cannot change his vote to be on the hammerer, unlike what your post implies. Votes are fixed once hammering occurs. Again, you know this.

[Titus]

Anyway, setting aside my issues with Dr. Pepper for a moment, I think we should ALL post our scum reads from Most Town to Least Scummy and why. This will help navigate the town when we start getting results from deaths.

[Titus]

I'm fine with the attention Dr. Pepper. I just know that we are NOT the only two playing the game. Everyone should be involved in scum hunting. Getting everyone to contribute is usually good. Yet, here you seem to be against even so basic as collecting opinions to push lurkers from the dark. Somehow, my doing that is scummy. Also, don't use this site's meta on me, as I've played a whopping one game on this site. Disclosure to everyone else: I've played before but the structure was very different. 48 - 24 hour days are the norm. Stopping fighting and moving the group to more productive activities is exactly my MO. I want the group to be productive because it increases our chances of finding scum. That seems to be something you have a problem with.

I'm not dodging at all. I'm not going to guess exactly what you have in mind. I've put forth my defense. Grab the posts and provide the context for your alleged scumslip. I'll then highlight where you are mistaken as to the context. I'm not asking you to read through my entire ISO. One post, highlight alleged scumslip passage.

You are again forgetting you combined your attack on Bob with a post that suggested I had no reason to defend Bob and call him a neutral. I just explained that again in that post. Yet, you then call me out for a defense of someone else. If I hadn't posted my logic on why Bob's statement wasn't a scum slip, you would have called my defense an illogical buddying defense. There was no way out the minute you posted the question. Whatever I did would be perceived as buddying, hence the catch 22.

I think we're going to have to agree you pretend you disagree on ending the day early. Even if your theory was right, hammering would have lost all the information we have gathered. We gather a lot of information just by continuing scumhunting even if we have a suspect. Gradually, we are coming to the conclusion that lynching Yessiree might be a mistake. If we hammered before, we might not have had seen facts that suggest someone else was scum. More facts are almost always better in a setup that doesn't have random crap like Drug Dealers in it.

[Titus]

480"Seems like Bacde will change his vote to whoever hammers."

My actual quote with italics for emphasis, I've included the full post below. "Seems pretty clear that Bacde is trying to change his vote

to see who will hammer or push for one

."

I'm not saying that Bacde has a mystical power to change his vote post hammer.

495"Obviously he cannot change this vote to be on the hammerer, unlike what you imply"

Stop backtracking, I can see your footprints even before you've actually killed someone, scum

Seems pretty clear that Bacde is trying to change his vote to see who will hammer or push for one.

NS pushed for a fast lynch which shuts off additional scum hunting, in my previously stated opinion, that's scummy. I am willing to hammer if a better target doesn't emerge but I have my reserva tions given Dr. Pepper's explosions and faulty reasoning.

Pretty obvious twisting of language there.

[Titus]

A game where I am town, and I suggest we move on quit fighting with my antagonist, who was scum. In that game, I turned a lylo into a 50/50 random shot at victory and I had to convince a scum to go along with the plan. Trying to get the whole team involved is my MO. That link goes off-site.

I had a scum read on yessiree, but my opinion began to change due to your reactions. A lot of my reads were due to various interactions the players had with each other.

Oh and self-meta, even if directly on point, is rather worthless. Self-meta is something we are all aware of and can change.

----------------------------

@JKR, I think Yessiree is at L-2 now and that we can hammer if we want. If the day is close is close to ending.

My issue is that being the hammer on a mislynch isn't the problem. It was that James May cut off days of conversation. You would be doing the same and pretty much announcing your scum status. You would hammer but closer to the dead line.

I am not attacking everyone on Bob, in fact my former account was on Bob. Saying there's not enough info for me to vote someone is not attacking everyone who did. I also don't have to know Bob's status to see a scummy vote on Bob.

Grabbing the post where you refuse to give an official stance on NS.

That's the post that Dr. Pepper thinks is so scummy.

However, it is clear from the context that I'm saying that the hammerer isn't always scum. It's the timing and motivation behind the hammer of a mislynch that suggest scum status.

---------------

Yessiree, that is surprisingly helpful and helps highlight the factions I've seen all along.

NS and Dr. Pepper seem to be the same and so do you and Bob. I never said explicitly that Bob wasn't scum though. I'm gradually coming around to that conclusion given how hard Dr. Pepper is pushing for a Bob lynch and I think Dr. Pepper is scum.

[Titus]

Meta is the worth of the beholder. I'm not just going to dismiss something I think is crap. I'm going to SHOW why it's crap. Meta is meta and crap to me. Some, however, highly value meta. Basically, I raised your crappy evidence with better but still crappy evidence. I've always said meta is not high value. That's consistent in my ISO.

Also, how the hell do you know what NS thinks? Scum defense.

I was showing that in post 449, I NEVER impled that Yessiree was a mislynch. You read that in there. That's what I have been saying and I'm pretty sure my face is turning as blue as your avatar.

[Titus]

This does make sense. It doesn't make sense to you because you place a higher value on meta than I do and you also are committing the fallacy that all players think like you do. While, I personally do not value meta highly as a scum hunting tool, I understand that SOME do. This makes meta evidence value to them. I find meta evidence not as valuable because a) players are aware of their own meta and b) once a player has enough games under their belt it becomes easier to find meta for whatever point that wants to be said. I'm not going to let someone post worthless evidence and not respond to it. That's a fool's errand. If you cannot understand this, then I will be blue in the face trying to explain it.

Grab the quotes from NS then. Post the whole post, not a link because you seem to twist links.

Apparently, you cannot read context because you are fixed on me as scum.

[Titus]

Yessiree, what do you think the value of meta is? Whatever answer you say (unless it contains a scum slip) will be fine. I just want to highlight that people view meta differently.

[Titus]

@JKM, I do MUCH better when I'm able to remain dispassionate. If that makes me clinical so be it. Pressure, if I let it get under me, is when I start making mistakes. So, I try to keep everything objective. If someone cannot convince me with anything beyond emotion, I will feel they likely have no case here. However, given how horrible my first game was on this site, I may need to reassess how much value I give emotional plays.

The post by Yessiree seems to be a legitimate attempt to contribute and his implication appears to be that Yessiree and Bob are on separate factions. I don't agree with it but I wanted to have him elaborate to see if my assumption was right.

Can you post your reads right now JKM?

[Titus]

A concern about making mistakes is a genuine concern for town player using logic. A mistake in logic leads to a mistaken conclusion and therefore a mistaken pushed lynch. This is precisely why I want everyone's input. I want to make sure my premises are not faulty.

Neither. I don't think Yessiree or Bob is scum. I think Yessiree implicitly sees Bob as scum or wants him to be scum.

Oh and also on a random note, what value (if any) do you give meta?

[Titus]

While I'm at it, I wanted to separate your refusal to give reads. That's HIGHLY suspicious IMO. If you have an opinion, you should say it. Maybe swap the order or something or say in no particular order, here's what I think of everyone. Players who have to have their teeth pulled to talk are suspicious to me. However, it's not a slip and it is a play style opinion so that might be how you play.

[Titus]

Ok, I will quit responding in quotes (or try to I may forget on occasion). My apologies. I'm not intending to give anyone a headache or make it hard to respond. I like the idea of everyone having the fair chance to read and analyze posts. I don't like the vanishing act though, and a lot of those (in my experience), are not real claims.

@yessiree, While I think you are both town yessiree, I think your lynch would reveal more information than Bob's for reasons I have already posted.

I also have no idea what you're saying in post 525. ("Emotional play? No GTFO.")

@JKMatthews, I do think your intent to hammer is a mistake. I've always been intending to hammer on Yessiree if no one else would be lynched. However, I don't like this. I think Yessiree is just new and trying to figure out how to play. That's hard on any given site.

The fact that he doesn't care (minus the moronic self vote) is frankly town evidence. A townie willing to sacrifice themselves is ok. He just doesn't know how to take a lynch.

However, since Yessiree is at L-1, I can revoke my intent to hammer since we will still get a lynch off because JKM will hammer. I'd rather have people who I suspect as scum (NS and Dr. Pepper) lynched.

I will definitely take your advice about factoring in emotions. However, I probably will not give them much credence. I never have and I probably never will.

[Titus]

I don't know, but I can make you a shiny trophy if you want. I got that for my first few F-FMs. I was getting lynched or talking my way out of one a lot. It's part of the integration process yessiree.

[Titus]

Votecount UNOFFICIAL BY TITUS:

Yessiree (4) -

Channeldelibird, Nobody Special, Pebro, Bacade

Nobody Special (2) -

Bicephalous Bob, Yessiree,

DoctorPepper (2) -

JKMatthews

, Titus

Titus (1)-

DoctorPepper

Not voting (0) -

Underline is who intends to hammer.

Updating vote count... given the rapid posting we've done


@JKM, I factor in if someone is telling the truth or not. I don't consider that emotional play. To me, I think Yessiree's play seems genuine. He is also getting lynched in another game with precisely the same rationale. The fact that he is demonstrating frustration given those two facts is consistent with being frustrated town. However, I do admit that this is a greyer area so I don't think your vote is necessarily scummy given the fact you support it.

[Titus]

Oh crap. Hold on... I forgot Bob's vote change... damn it.

[Titus]

Votecount UNOFFICIAL BY TITUS:

Yessiree (4) -

Channeldelibird, Nobody Special, Pebro, Bacade

Nobody Special (2) -

Yessiree,

DoctorPepper (2) -

JKMatthews

, Titus, Bob

Titus (1)-

DoctorPepper

Not voting (0) -

Underline is who intends to hammer.

Fixed

[Titus]

Doctor Pepper is listed as voting me and I think NS's vote is indeed accurate. Is NS not voting you?

Target - Voters

is how the vote count is meant to be read.

[Titus]

Oh you meant the numbers. Blah. Not changing that. Everyone can add and I don't want to overly spam. Took me a few minutes of staring to figure that out. Sorry.

[Titus]

Votecount UNOFFICIAL BY TITUS:

Yessiree (4) -

Channeldelibird, Nobody Special, Pebro, Bacade

Nobody Special (1) -

Yessiree,

DoctorPepper (1) -

JKMatthews

, Titus, Bob

Titus (1)-

DoctorPepper

Not voting (0) -

Underline is who intends to hammer.

Really fixed... only did this because no one was posting. I'll have to get off for the night soon.

[Titus]

Or I can be a total idiot and make another typo. Doctor Pepper has three votes. Maybe I should just hang it up for the night now.

[Titus]

Wow. Apparently crazy things happen in the night.

NS? Did you totally miss the vote counter? Yessiree was at L-1 with someone willing to hammer him. :S That's not the definition of a train going nowhere. Then, you change your vote to me... which no one was on. Are you convinced that Yessiree is town or what the heck was that?

Dr. Pepper, I wasn't attacking you. I was putting my leads out there and you had a major freakout.

[Titus]

In my last post, no one was on means relatively no one was on. Blah. Maybe I subconsciously disregarded scum. Whatever. This post is meant to edit that one.

[Titus]

NS, we have many days left in the scum chat available to get information. Only scum are in a rush to hammer IMO. There's literally no harm in having your vote sit on someone. Scum who withdraw their vote because the hammer is taking too long identify themselves as scum.

You're all hurry up and hammer. The day didn't end within 24 hours of that point, so you change your vote to a less likely (in my opinion) to be successful lynch by the numbers. This seems more like a panicked scum play.

[Titus]

Then if you think Yessiree is scum, you should have no problem putting your vote back if your goal is to truly end the day as fast as possible. If you don't think he's scum, I'd like to hear your reasons as to him being town.

[Titus]

@JKM, I don't believe so. I'll grab the posts that make me believe that NS wanted the day over as fast as possible.

[Titus]

Somebody please hammer.

Anybody.

I could go for a Titus lynch, especially with the yessirree wagon going absolutely

nowhere.

unvote

Vote: [He voted for Me]

JKM -- you've stated intent to hammer how long ago?

What are/were you waiting for?

These three posts together form the nearly unmistakable conclusion that NS is wanting to hammer fast. First, he's begging for anyone to hammer Yessiree. Second, his stated rationale was that he was changing because he perceived the Yessiree lynch to be a failure. Third, he's wanting to know if someone was willing to hammer what took so long. I cannot come up with any rationale for these three posts that is NOT a desire to hammer quickly.

As you said, there are people outstanding. We have time before jumping onto any lynch right now. My question to NS was putting his feet to the fire. Does he believe that Yessiree is scum, or like in 12 Angry Men, is he only changing his vote because he has baseball tickets burning a hole in his pocket (meaning that he wants a fast lynch due to reasons other than finding scum, V/LA or the possibility he's scum come to mind)?

[Titus]

My husband is calling me back to bed. I guess I woke him. I really have to go... blah. Probably good to sleep anyway. I will see y'all tomorrow.

[Titus]

Also Titus's 553 is opportunistic as fuck. She says she doesnt want people to be lynched before the deadline (this is really not a scum tell), yet tells NS "If you think he is scum, hammer"
What was the purpose of explicitly stating he voted for you, like altering the quote? In 557.

Ok, this is several layers of wrong and deception.

1) Yessiree was at L-2 when I was telling NS to put his vote back if he thought Yessiree was scum.
2) If, at that time, NS puts his vote back, the hammer spot is back in the hands of town.
3) My post was clearly about telling NS that he should have his vote on his scum targets and calling him out for his sudden flop.
4) I altered the quote because I am used to playing with automated vote counters that sometimes count quoted posts as votes. However, it is not in the interests of anyone for me to change the message NS sent. So I edited it to say NS voted for me.

Also, NS by his stunt, got a game day that was several days shorter than it had to be. I haven't even seen CB. I would have liked his feedback on what was going on. If you look at NS, he is all about the pressure to shorten the days. Because everyone is required to post every 48 hours, days shouldn't end with 4 or 5 days still the deadline. Organized towns lead to scum losses.

As for Dr. Pepper, his behavior and relation to NS is consistent with him being the other scum. There is an outside chance Dr. Pepper is suffering frim major confirmation bias causing him to rapidly twist my posts.

JKM is the most protown of the remaining players. If anyone starts accusing him, I will suspect you as scum. He's painfully town.

Bacde is also town. He is running little risk gambits to try figure out who is scum. That is pro town.

Bob is scum if Yessiree flips scum. He was opportunistic and hypocritical in changing his vote to Dr. Pepper. When I call him on it, he vanishes. However, he would never vote Yessiree which suggests to me he is town if Yessiree is town, scum if Yes us scum. Given the fact I think Yessiree got railroaded, this puts Bob as town for now.

Let's try to organize tomorrow and keep the day long enough so all contribute.

[Titus]

It is not always about quantity but quality. JKM's post have focused on finding scum and analyzing. While I don't agree with his refusal to share scum reads, his reason made sense. If his reason was bad, I would have reconsidered my opinion that JKM was town. I would hope he would step up and lead the town if I die tonight.

Bacde's gambit was putting Yessiree at L-1 and then seeing our reaction. I am not sure what his opinions are now that this has happened but I would love to hear his results.

Now you've just claimed anyone who disagrees with you is dumb without refuting any of my true points. You are playing to people's fear of looking dumb. Knock it off. I would say you need reassurance but your ego appears to be bigger than the thread.

I will always feel ending the day early is a scum tell.

[Titus]

As for the possible confirmation bias, I came to that after reflecting over orange juice this morning.

After all, you seem to have unconscious doubts about JKM's play not being worthy of town status. Yt, if Bob and I are scum together, then JKM must be town. Is JKM town solely through process of elimination Dr. Pepper?

Bob, I would like to see your scum reads and your timezone. The timing of your return is suspicious.

[Titus]

You just called him suspicious in post 522 for not posting his reads and all of a sudden he's town for posting his reads.
Also how sure are you thats what Bacde's "gambit" was? Why not let Bacde explain what he is doing. This is coming from a player who regularly accuses people of posting for the sake of others.

Thats it, Im done. Town, if you dont see it now, I may have to literally scream it. TITUS IS SCUM AND ITS REALLY OBVIOUS HER ONLY ATTACK ON ME IS THAT IM BEING ARROGANT, NOT THAT IM WRONG, BUT IM BEING ARROGANT. SHE NEVER SAID I WAS WRONG, SHE ONLY SAID "I AM REALLY OVERCONFIDENT", WHICH MEANS SHE KNOWS IM RIGHT CAUSE SHE NEVER DIRECTLY REFUTES ME, OR TELLS ME IM WRONG ABOUT HER.ALSO ITS IRONIC SHE TELLS ME I NEVER REFUTE ANY OF HER TRUE POINTS WHEN A. IVE DONE THAT THOUSANDS OF TIMES AND B. SHE NEVER ANSWERS MY POINTS. DONT MESS WITH THE TUNNELSNAKES. (Lol sorry Bacde, I hope you get the joke)

I am legitimately pissed

And now you suspect Bob after constantly saying he's town? Or null? Or scum with yes? What is it really?

Thats a dumb question, if two people are scum together, of course people are town by process of elimination. Also why specify you and Bob? Confirming scum status?

Paragraph 1 ) I was stating that JKM is cooperating. He refused to give his reads in a manner I suggested because he thought scum might shoot his town aligned targets. I'm not sure I agree with that, but the reasoning is principled. He's been open with what he thought but for that point. That's what my posts have said. He seems to be open with his thoughts but concerned with the welfare of others.

Paragraph 1b) Yeah, I'm pretty sure that was the intent on his post. I quoted it and explained what I felt his intent was. I'm allowed to interpret posts of others to gain my own opinion on who is town and scum.

Paragraph 2) So basically, I don't talk like you I am scum. I've said your posts have been deceptive, illogical and a slew of other synonyms for wrong. Apparently, I am missing the magic wand of correct scum accusations. I quote and answer your points, in freaking line if I can. Unfortunately, your scum partner objects due to headaches (read being too clear).

Paragraph 3) I am confused about Bob's status. I always figured the Yessiree lynch would reveal Bob's town status. Yessiree appears to be town, and by extension, Bob did. Yet, Bob was doing some things that appeared suspicious and I called him out on that. I've never been clear on him, that's why he was a true neutral read.

Paragraph 4) I combined myself and Bob because you've constantly been on us as hypothetical scum. I wanted to see if you were even analyzing other players. Once you determined that I was your target, you totally ignored the other players. Town by process of elimination is BAD this early in the game. I feel JKM has earned a town label. There are others who have not.

[Titus]

umm rope NS tomorrow

That means lynch NS I'm assuming.

Are the lynched players allowed to talk in Twilight or is that a "Bah!" post?

[Titus]

Hello, that's a serious question? I'd like to talk to Yessiree but I don't want to violate the rules or have him do that inadvertently.

[Titus]

Yeah, that's the idea.

Considering you're dead, would you mind putting together a last will of reads? I know you might be off any second, so don't worry about making each read its own post. The more information the town has the better.

[Titus]

Also, no one argue with Yessiree's reads. We can debate them tomorrow unless there's an obvious typo or inconsistency (i.e. everyone on his train MUST be scum is obviously wrong because that would require 5 scums). I want Yessiree to be able to say his piece here without fear of judgment.

[Titus]

You have both me and Dr. Pepper as town reads. That's surprising. Can you elaborate on that, now that your initial read is submitted for all to see?

Also, what do you mean by hepalurking?

[Titus]

Okay, so far four people have voted on me

JKMatthews, CDB, NS, Pebro

These people are confirmed town on my list

Why?

Because if you still don't want me dead after my sketchy as fuck random shit, you don't want to win as town. If you see scrubby shit like yessiree, as a town player, you fucking jump on his wagon and tell him to GTFO.

Only scums imo would be willing to let this wacky shit continue, because they think I'll make an easy wagon on any day. So they are saving this easy wagon for later.

This is post 384. Yessiree stated he faked this post to test reactions.

[Titus]

You've stated that you think someone on your train is scum.

Yessiree (5 - Not in order) - Channeldelibird, Nobody Special, Pebro, Bacade, JKM

You've also stated town reads on Bacde and JKM.

So that means you think one of Channeldelibird, Nobody's Special and Pebro are likely scum. If I am wrong, please correct me. I'm not stating my opinions here. I'm just trying to help display your thoughts.

[Titus]

Here's what I think. NS's behavior was totally suspicious at the end of the day. He said he was given the hammer due to the permissions of the town. However, when you are given a hammer you are given trust not to cut short an investigation. Here, Channel hadn't even posted since I replaced in. How could it be appropriate to hammer under those circumstances? When some were expressing doubt as to Yessiree's guilt? I can understand a newbie doing this, but someone with enough experience to host games on this site? That would indicate someone who plays very frequently and shouldn't be in a rush to cut the day short.

Does anyone have a roleblocked claim? It would help determine what scum are in the game if someone was roleblocked.

Now, I'm going to answer Dr. Pepper's questions.

1) I'm me. As for Dr. Pepper, I find it odd he completely glosses over how day 1 ended. It's as if he wouldn't want us discussing that at all. NS's behavior was scummy. No doubt about that. There is almost certainly mafia on Yessiree's train. Does he really not want us discussing that? Was it because he's protecting NS?

2) IC not dying by Day 2. Are you supposing that the mafia targeted the IC? Where do you get that assumption? Did you target him? The IC is experienced but is just a player like anyone else. There's no particular reason the IC must die.

3) The fact no one died last night leaves four possible scenarios. 1) Doctor healed the attacked person. 2) Attacked person was bulletproof. 3) Mafia decided not to kill anyone ("a no kill"). 4) Major host error. I'm going to suppose the only realistic options are one and two. While the last are possible, their odds are very unlikely.

4) Again, you are trying to suggest that Bob and I slipped when no such thing occurred. You do this while totally ignoring how day 1 ended. This is bad gameplay at best.

[Titus]

What misrep? I really think that NS's behavior is a discussion worth having. However, your post almost immediately asking questions other than that is suspicious. It is an attempt to avoid discussing what should be discussed by the group. Just because YOU don't think something is suspicious doesn't mean it isn't. Scum would want attention diverted away from their teammate. Of course you didn't type my fingers to the table, but when I mention it I was expecting you to say "derailing!".

Wow... that's a flip. You start by implying that the IC was attacked, but then he wasn't. The IC not dying doesn't indicate anything. The IC could have been attacked or someone else could have been attacked. There is no reason to assume the IC was or was not attacked. He is a player like anyone else.

I was meaning to mention all possibles. I did forget the jailkeeper. My mistake there. However, it is best to start from all hypothetically possibilities and work your way backwards. Paraphrasing Sherlock Holmes, "When you eliminate the impossible, you are left with the truth no matter how improbable it may be". All possibilities, however remote, should be mentioned with that philosphy.

Either you are scum covering for NS or your total ignorance of NS's behavior is very poor scumhunting. I can't see a third option there. Care to enlighten me?


On a random note, I totally see you've drawn attention to Bacde (alleging his response to the no death might be scummy), me, CDB and Bob. Why so many FoSes on day 2? FoSes should come with evidence.


@CDB, really quite long day 1? Should that matter? Wouldn't it be better to extend the day and avoid a mislynch? You and I both had our doubts but NS quickly runs a con game on JKM to get him to give up the hammer at the end. That's how I see it at least. Don't think... gee I'm glad it's over is a good thing unless you're certain no investigation is to be done. That's not the same as no disagreement. You should have an unsettled feeling CDB.

I was hoping to try and make amends with Dr. Pepper today, given a confirmed town thought he was town. However, his behavior leaves me no choice.

VOTE: Dr. Pepper

Responding to Dr. Pepper's post in a moment.

[Titus]

Yeah, I said Bacde's reaction was scummy. What about it?

Looking at how no one died last night, and the IC didnt die, there are three things to consider
1) IC was protected
2) Scum know that the Ic is likely to be protected
3) IC is scum/IC got jailed.

If you combine one and two, which any

experienced

player would do, why did you expect the IC to die? That is NOT consistent with being surprised the IC is alive on day 2 and scum being experienced. You are trying to fit your reasoning into me being scum.

Note three is two separate scenarios and should be treated as such.

3a) The IC is scum & jailed

Looking at probable game mechanics, the IC being scum and jailed is not going to create an no death situation at all. It would need either a doctor or a bulletproof as well. The scum would have to PM the host with who was doing the attacking. Would the mafia really send the guy who said NOTHING in night chat to perform the kill? That makes no sense. If scum was in jail and had access to night chat (which I cannot see happening), then the mafia deliberately planned to send the guy who was in jail for a kill. That's pretty much a no kill scenario.

3b) The IC is town and & jailed

Again, this scenario supposes the IC was attacked. Otherwise, it's totally bloody irrelevant.

------------------

@CDB, most of that day must have been spammish type posts then. There was little after I arrived because someone was directing traffic and asking pointed questions. With so much spam to read, that's an easier way to convince people to get a mislynch over with. I understand you think you would have gotten more out of it by ending it quickly, I think this is a mistake to do. People who try to convince you a mislynch when you have reservations is a good idea are usually scum IMO.

---

@Doctor Pepper, under what planet is my openly discussing NS's suspicious day ending hammer not providing an analysis of him?

I do believe the IC not dying should be discussed. I never said it shouldn't be discussed. I was just saying that there's many possible scenarios. Why are you assuming that the IC was attacked (which you pretty much said is a newbie manuever) and experienced scum? The two assertions appear to be inconsistent.

Umm, the confirmed town was Yessiree who is in the graveyard. At the very end of day 1 he called us both town and said not to quibble over the small stuff.

[Titus]

yeah I have townreads on you and DoctorPepper. I think you guys are arguing over silly, minute details that isn't really gonna benefit the town in terms of scum-hunting. Try to broaden your view on the entire playing field, I think you both can do much better.

This is the post I was referring to.

[Titus]

Dr. Pepper, you saw that post about confirmed town as a "slip" because you already saw me as scum. Supposing you weren't scum (big huge assumption on my part but I'm trying to "broaden my view" as Yessiree said) and looking to twist what I was saying into "slips", then is it possible that whatever you saw as a slip previously was just fueled by your assumptions that I was scum than actual reality? You've clearly made that mistake once. I'm asking you to reread the day and come back. See if you reach the same conclusions.

Jailing on my other site generally would remove a person from the night discussion. I analyzed the analysis either way, because I wasn't sure how the mechanic worked here. I can't see the scum, being able to communicate that they are in jail, sending the guy in jail for a night kill. They'd just no kill. Sending the guy in jail opens him up to a tracker. That's even supposing their IS a jailor which is a huge assumption.

[Titus]

Wait... scum doesn't know if they are jailed? What kind of setup is this? Note: For those of you curious, I play on sc2mafia.com. There, jailing removes from the nightchat. Jailors can also execute but that was obviously missing from the rolecard PM. I assumed when someone is hauled off to jail, they'd be aware of it. Logically, that just goes with being jailed. --- Obviously, my analysis on what happened with the jailing assumed the jailed victim knew they were jailed. I'll have to reanalyze that.

Dr. Pepper, you're quibbling about my words. However, if I said "I know you're wrong because I'm town", you'd be arguing that I'd be vouching for myself as an attempt to appear pro town. I'm trying to guide you using your own logic. That's much easier to do with a smart analyzer like yourself who is having a big lapse in judgment. I've pretty much done a more formal, polite way of saying what you expect me to say. I'm highlighting the flaws in your logic. Your refusal to even go back and reread to see if you are mistaken highlights you as scum. Town should have no problem reevaluating their premises, if they weren't just tunnelling. The fact you refused all but confirms you intended me as the mislynch.

[Titus]

Under what planet was I "stopping discussion"?

I realized I missed this.

You were pre-emptively stopping discussion over how Day 1 ended by steering the conversation anywhere BUT NS. You say Bacade, CDS and myself are all scummy very quickly today. Yet you refuse to even discuss the possibility of NS being scum. Why? You should be looking at every possibility before being certain as to your scum target. You refuse to look. Why? Because you are scum.

[Titus]

Note: I have to leave in a half hour for awhile. Not sure when I'll be back but probably some point this US evening.

[Titus]

Why do I intend for you to be a mislynch? thats a weak excuse. The thing is, if you claim that I think your scum, then you pretty much say "I know youre not scum" because scum finds no reason to think other people are scum, unless they are partners. His is one detail people have overlooked. You basically say things that implicate me not being scum. So you know Im town

I was starting from that position to disprove it. That's a common logical argument. I was starting from the hopeful position that you were town. I don't like thinking someone as smart as you is scum. However, your refusal to revisit the issue after I definitively disproved one of your alleged "slips" confirms that you were never intending to scumhunt at all. If you were and mistaken, you'd have no problem verifying your thoughts. I cannot make that argument more apparent without starting from that position.

Here's an abstract, non-threatening example. You are given an item in a box. You know it's either red or green. You know that all red items are rough. So you start reaching into the box, expecting it to be rough. If it's rough, you cannot tell if it's green or red. However, to your surprise, it is soft. Because it is soft, you know it cannot be red. It is green.

Here, I started from the position that you were analyzing. If you were, you'd go back and revisit something when one of your premises was proven untrue. Yet, you did not. Why?

=====================================

Wait wait. So if I dont think Im mistaken, it means Im scum? Thats what you say by "your refusal to go back and reread to see if you are mistaken highlights you as scum" how exactly??

One of your proposed "slips" was nothing more than a misunderstanding. I asked you to revisit to see if your other slips would be nothing more than misunderstanding. You should have no problem revisiting and looking at your conclusion again if you are town. You have a problem with revisiting this because you know NOTHING supports your conclusion.

========================

I am done arguing with you. We've gone around in circles for nothing significant and I think I've made a case for you being scum which I truly believe in. I do wish Bob was here so I can prove he is scum too.

Done arguing with me? Really, this just sounds like what you say when you want me to shut up. I've offered you "peace offerings". You say such attempts are scummy and attempts to divert attention away. Yet you repeatedly do this yourself.
========================

Maybe its because NS hasnt talked yet and I have no problem with his hammer, I never freaking called CDB scummy (misrep meter reaches infinity!), and I never stopped you from talking about NS. I never steered the conversation away and if you think he's scummy, its not my responsibility to bring it up because I do not think he is scummy.[/quote]

Haha. Like I said, premptive attempt to make sure we don't discuss what NS did. You think that you can just sweep an action under the rug as not scummy. He unvoted, which caused JKM to vote and keep Yessiree at L-1. Then he immediately hammers. He wanted a quick resolution to that day before Channel could respond.

=================

BTW, CDB is totally posting on other forums but not this one.

That's the post where you are trying to draw attention to Channel. Why? If he's posting in other forums but not this one, why did you feel a need to draw attention to it? You're wanting people to think he's taking time to make up an answer rather than posting his unvarished opinion. That's bullshit. Let people post at their own speed. Call them out if they are not posting at all. But a time lapse, good lord.

Also, you are calling it too long, when you say "you shouldnt end days early"
Lol whut?

This post here is also an attack post. You're not looking at his logic at all, but merely discrediting him. His posts were clear that while ending the day early can be suspicious, he was arguing that it wasn't true in NS's case. Yet, you felt the need to discredit him anyway. Why?

=======================

Obviously, you are not going to say, do not discuss NS's suspicious behavior. Duh! So you want to turn the attention to your mislynch target as fast as possible.

[Titus]

I only said he's posting on other forums. I wasnt calling him scummy, I wanted him to post. So calling inactives/lurkers out is scummy?

I was discrediting you with that too long post.

Calling inactives out is not scummy. It's the context. If you know he's posting, you wait to see if he's skipping this one. Some people play in multiple games. By your rationale, he has to post in all of them at the same time to avoid being called out and looking suspicious. That's not possible.

So stubborness is a scum tell, because obviously town would never be stubborn, is that what you are saying?
Your example is bullshit and has nothing to do with whats happening, youre calling me scummy for something both town and scum do because I do not think I was proven wrong and even then,mjust because I am stubborn, it doesnt mean I am scummy.

Stubborn doesn't mean scummy. However, when your conclusions fail to be accurate. A person who is really analyzing should doubt their premises. Stubbornness in this situation IS scummy.

Wait. So when JKM and NS agreed to hammer, JKM was obv town (when he claimed hammer vote and agreed on a yessirree lynch) but NS is scummy. So i dont think he is scummy, it means Im preemptively trying to stop you from discussing what he did when Im not preventing you at all, Im just saying I see no problem with it. If you want to discuss it, I am not stopping you.

No. That's twisting again. Your attempt was to guide the discussion away from NS and hoping to get it onto you and me, so when I try to discuss NS's behavior, you can claim derailing. Still, you're not really wanting to discuss the premises. You just label as scummy. NS's behavior was contextually scummy. If you're willing to engage in that conversation, we can have it out when I get back. I've already mentioned I have got to go now.

Holy fuck this is so obvious, im going to bed before I get even more pissed off.

The holy fuck with no evidence again. How many times do I have to say it... evidence is required for a lynch. Quit playing to emotions.


I hope to be back in 3 - 4 hours but we will see.

[Titus]

@Bacde, What am a missing that makes Dr. Pepper town? Both you and Yessiree have said he's town. Yessiree I know was town and you I know are likely town. That tells me one of us is seeing something the other is not. While I am pretty certain Dr. Pepper is scum, I don't want to be manipulated.

As for channel, I don't like the sheeping. Sometimes a person just says what you have been believing but better. Where do you draw the line. It's troubling but not necessarily scum.

Can you give your thoughts on NS' s day end behavior yesterday? Is it consistent with this site meta? A lynch done that early would trigger a hell of a lot of suspicion. Here, it seems to be glossed over. Why?

@Pebro, Is there anything I can do to help clarify things?

As for thinking alike, that's a way mafia can hide themselves. They don't express original opinions but rather sheep the lynches, regardless of target.

Who is your top susprct?
Pedr

[Titus]

Also, how does jailor work exactly on this site? Is it something the jailor selects at day or at night? Does the jailor get a night chat with his victim?

The jailor I am used to selects his target at day. He cannot jail in the event of a lynch (limitation not mentioned here). He gets a night chat and can execute his target. He also removes said target from his nightchats, if he has any.

[Titus]

Hmm, I do see that. Channel should have at least commented that he didn't have anything more to say.

However, I don't think your question to JKM is a fair question. Yessiree was at L-1. Then, NS unvotes for a bullshit reason (claiming that Yessiree wasn't going to get lynched despite a confirmed hammerrer, so he'd vote someone with fewer votes). Then, JKM puts Yessiree at L-1. Finally, NS hammers soon after. To me, that scenario appears that JKM wanted CDB to comment but figured the lynch was more important to go off. JKM was not the hammerer. This scenario is exactly why I think NS is suspicious.

[Titus]

The question is not a fair question because it implies that JKM hammered or was the cause of the hammer. That is inaccurate. JKM did want to wait for Channel but it was clear NS was having none of that. It's not fair to ask someone why they didn't wait when clearly they had lost a good part of control over the day.

I've pretty much done what you've been expecting me to do already. I am pretty certain you are scum. I'm also aware people can know things and be wrong about it. A hypothetical scenario. Let's suppose a guy wakes up and due to a freak of nature, all things red appear green and all things green appear red. He looks at a stop light and wonders why the heck all the stop lights are backwards with the green light being on top. He

knows

that the light on top is green. He is wrong but still would know it and argue it until the cows come home. I'm trying to make sure I'm not the hypothetical guy who is getting everything backwards due to some unknown fact I missed. I also want to make sure everyone else has all the facts as well.

Stubbornness is usually a matter of playstyle. However, in some instances it is an indicator of being scum. If you your conclusions are inaccurate, a logical person assumes that either a premise is wrong or the argument is valid but not sound. You are doing neither. You are supposing all your premises and facts are valid despite the conclusions not matching up to them. That's an indicator of a player that is not playing logically at all, despite what you are saying.

Your next paragraph is a lot of confusion. I don't have a primary source or objective other than to lynch scum. I really don't see how you can say that I'm tunnelling you while checking with others to see their opinions on other players and trying to talk about NS. Of course, I haven't spent as much time talking about NS because NO ONE is talking about NS.

I don't believe I have selectively responded to questions. You however have missed a possibly helpful question about how the jailor works. I really would like to know that for my scumhunt.

Also, why are you again, bringing up topics that the town was pretty close to moving on from? We don't need to necro our issues Dr. Pepper. If there's a specific question you feel is unanswered, you should quote it and bring it to my attention. Not liking my answer is not the same thing as me not responding. You know this.

Frankly, stopping investigations is a motive of scum. We need to investigate everyone on the off chance that we are wrong about each other. The worst thing that happens by doing that is we confirm our suspicions and make it harder for a mislynch. If town players can confirm themselves as town, then the mafia cannot make them a target of a mislynch. If I cannot convince the town directly that you are scum, I will confirm everyone else as town. Then by process of elimination, the town will see that I was right all along about you.

[Titus]

NS, I'm in the same mindset about yessiree.

Let's do it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: yessiree

Note: I made this vote expecting it to lead to a hammer, so take equal responsibility for the hammer vote as the actual hammerer

This? Its clear they agreed on it. So not buy this shit town.

It's clear they wanted to hammer and that JKM is taking responsibility if Yessiree was town. He's not taking responsibility for the timing of said vote. He expected it to lead to a hammer. At no point did he specific that he no longer wanted to hear from Channel.

[Titus]

Can you link me to the jailor entry in the wiki?

[Titus]

Dr. Pepper, you have been stopping any discussion that is NOT you versus me. I'm fully capable of talking with you forever. Our cases have been presented. The town is freaking confused at best. We can talk about others. Yet, you seem unwilling to do so.

[Titus]

The entry does not answer my questions. I was hoping you would link me to something that would answer them.

1) Does the jailkeeper select his target during the day or at night?

2) Does the roleblocker occur before the jailkeeper in the Order of Operations? The first page suggests that the roleblocker takes preference. If there are no roleblock claims, we can infer there is no roleblocker and have just as much information as the mafia. However, if the jailkeeper blocks the mafia. E.g. I'm not understanding preference on the host's first page.

[Titus]

Ok. The scenario I'm concerned with is Ronnie Roleblocker roleblocking Thomas Townie. Jackson Jailkeeper jails Ronnie Roleblocker. Does the roleblocker's action go through? Or is it silenced?

[Titus]

Ok I thought it was obvious what your intentions were. Otherwise, I never would have said that. I guess my grounds for NS being as suspicious regarding the end of the day lynch were not as founded as I thought them to be. I guess I need to take a dose of my own medicine and reread NS's ISO.

Oh and even if you are gone for two days, you might have just helped the town a whole lot. Thanks for correcting me.

[Titus]

That reminds me, if my interpretation of your intent was incorrect. Then the question by Bob is a fair one.

Why did you suddenly want to end the day and not hear from Channel?

I hope you can answer it before you leave.

[Titus]

NS - I already said I was waiting for a few more people to check in. At the time I stated intent it was only me, Titus and yessiree talking. What are your frustrated about? Can you tell us why you think Titus is a better lynch than NS?

Titus - seems like you're putting a lot of words in NS's mouth. "if you think Yessiree is scum, you should have no problem putting your vote back if your goal is to truly end the day as fast as possible"? Isn't it possible he thinks yessiree is scum without necessarily wanting to end the day as fast as possible?

NS, I'm in the same mindset about yessiree. Let's do it.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: He voted for yessiree

Note: I made this vote expecting it to lead to a hammer, so take equal responsibility for the hammer vote as the actual hammerer

These two posts were five posts apart. There's not much happening regarding Yessiree's lynch. What suddenly changed your mind that you didn't want to hear from these people to check in?

[Titus]

I still think NS has a decent chance at being scum. However, all my thoughts are messed up a bit. So I'm going to

UNVOTE

for now. I'll need some time to reflect. There's just too much here that I'd need to sort through. I'd welcome contributions from everyone.

1) Gene seemed to be forgotten about after his replacement with Pebro. Why?

2) It seems the group is in a consensus (other than me), that the hammer was not suspicious. I'll suppose that is the site meta and that it would be scummy on the site I played on but it's not scummy here. Still, that doesn't change the likelihood that one of the people on the train is scum.

3) NS claims that he never guesses a scum team on day one. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p5027130. Later he does it anyway despite trying really hard not to. Post 252 If you really have that urge, PM the host. He can document saying that you had it right all along. Scum team theories should be used as a tool to scum hunt by pointing out associations. Not a tool to brag and say "convince me otherwise". There is no ambiguity in post 66. NS said he never guesses a scum team in response to a directed question. Perhaps this colored my judgment but I still think NS is scum.

4) Channel's behavior does bother me but I cannot put my finger on it.

I'm seeing too much suspicious behavior. This troubles me, greatly. Perhaps maybe I've been wrong about Dr. Pepper. My gut is still screaming Dr. Pepper is scum though. I'll leave my vote considering Dr. Pepper is still a scum read. However, I'm starting to have my doubts about my own reads. I might be being manipulated. I don't like the feelings I have right now.

[Titus]

I am sorry if my scumhunting has irritated you. If it's a specific behavior, please tell me what it is so I can stop. I am trying to be reasonable here.


I had several questions in my day end that were causing me to doubt my scumreads.


How is explaining a "normal" role mental calisthenics?

Jailkeeper/roleblocker question I have

1) If the jailkeeper jails the roleblocker, and the roleblocker blocks someone else does it take effect? In other words is the Order of Operations... 1) Roleblocker blocks jailkeeper 2) Jailkeeper acts 3) Roleblocker blocks anyone else OR is it 1) Roleblocker blocks anyone 2) Jailkeeper acts? In the first scenairo, we cannot assume due to a lack of a roleblock claim that there is no roleblocker. The second scenario, we still likely would see a roleblocked claim.


I think an

unvote

is the right place to be due to seeing too much suspicious acts right now.

[Titus]

I phone post occasionally. Yes, NS. If I see something that needs to be commented on but I am not near my desktop I will phone post. What of it?

[Titus]

I've never insisted there should be a roleblock claim. I'm focusing on the hypothetical roleblocker because determining if there is a roleblocker would put us on equal footing with scums on figuring out the setup that is in play. The mafia know whether or not a roleblocker exists.

See the role introductory PMs

. If we can be certain that there is or is no roleblocker, we can eliminate scenarios the mafia have already logically eliminated.

[Titus]

I did ask for a roleblock claim because a roleblock claim almost certainly confirms the presence of a roleblocker. I can't see the mafia faking a roleblocker.

[Titus]

No it wouldn't. A townie could have received a message from the host saying they were roleblocked. If the hosts don't send those messages, to me that's a strategically poor system and reveals who isn't a PR to the mafia.

[Titus]

No its not a bad system, it creates more vagueness which is good play. Stop doing information instead of analysis.

Information is part of analysis. If you know what roles are impossible, then you know what claims MUST be false.

The only vagueness the system creates where a townie wouldn't be notified of a roleblock is vagueness as to part of the town. Frankly, if the mafia expect a roleblocked claim but fail to get one, then they KNOW their target is likely a townie in a newbie setup with genuine newbies. Only SEs/ICs would withhold roleblock claims. What is the problem with wanting the town to be on equal footing with the mafia?

I'll link to the wiki to the site, I normally play on.

[Titus]

http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

That's the wiki for the page. Just a warning, it seems a little bit slow today.

Some translations

Consort/Escort = Roleblocker - Link here: http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Consort , http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Escort
Jailor = Jailkeeper - http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Jailor
Sheriff = Cop - http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Sheriff
Doctor = Doctor - http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Doctor

Bulletproofs tend to appear only in the forum games, not in the real time games. Forum games on sc2mafia.com tend to follow the wiki very closely unless otherwise stated. I can provide past games for my meta as well.

I rarely play the same setup twice. Sc2mafia is a small community that enjoys changing the setup, creating half the battle as figuring out what the roles are.

[Titus]

Oh and the forum website is www.sc2mafia.com

[Titus]

Ok. I'm sorry that I'm irritating you. I'll try to cut down on that expression. It's hard for me admit when I don't know everything, so I coax it with language like that. My arrogance is a fatal flaw of mine. I counteract it by asking for people to correct me if I'm wrong. Ex: My asking for information relating to you and Dr. Pepper being town.

I'm not concerned with roleblocks on the jailor. I'm concerned with the roleblocker blocking someone other than the jailkeeper when jailed. Can the roleblocker do that?

[Titus]

That's what I am trying to ask. :S I don't think anyone understood me. That's all the scenarios with Ronnie Roleblocker.

[Titus]

@Mod: To be clear, can the roleblocker block someone other than the jailor if the jailor selects him?

[Titus]

I was thinking that taking precedence could mean that both jailor and roleblocker occur at the same time at the Order of Operations and roleblocker occurs first. I just want clarification and then I can move on with my method of scumhunting. Why are you so angry with me wanting to understand the rules?

[Titus]

I am very academic. The behaviors that drive you nuts are likely present in all of my games. I'd link you to my meta if you'd like to verify but analyzing a lot is my regular course of operation.

[Titus]

Ok. I'm off to bed now. Hopefully, Nexus will answer the question I have while I'm asleep. Then, people can come on and I can gain some clarity on behaviors. A lot of people have vanished.

[Titus]

Ok. Now here's what the host's answer tells me.

A) We can remove any people who have posted a lot but not claimed roleblocked as possibilities. Roleblocked is the only feedback the town can claim that doesn't help the mafia, so I cannot imagine someone not claiming roleblocked.
B) The option that the jailkeeper jailed the roleblocker who blocked someone else is still possible, but unlikely.
C) If the option went the other way, I'd be near certain that there was no roleblocker unless a total lurker was roleblocked.
D) Now that I've formed the opinion roleblocker is unlikely in the setup, it's unlikely we have a cop and a doctor.

I'm going to take the rest of the morning (IRL) to reflect on this.

[Titus]

I assumed that roleblocks would be notified to all. That is how sc2mafia does that. I can't ask for every little difference because I don't know what they are.

Mod: Do townies get messages about roleblocked?

[Titus]

Wow. What a mislead Dr. Pepper? You didn't read I unvoted you because I was actually questioning my logic for a moment. Wow. Even, then you'd need one more to be at L-1. What happened to make you think you were at L-1?



As for the townies not getting roleblocked messages, I have a soapbox on that.

Townies not getting roleblocked messages makes no sense. It turns logical scumhunting on its head. Newbies would claim roleblocked thinking they are helping town but they are really helping scum. Town gains a lot by figuring out the setup usually. The mafia already starts with a headstart because they know whether or not a roleblocker is in the game. I've burned through a fair bit of time based on unwritten assumptions that were not clear. Can you please clarify these assumptions for future games? I'm seriously annoyed by how the roleblocker is structured. Roles that encourage townies to withhold information from each other are BAD generally. I do understand that the focus should be on player analysis but that is greatly helped by knowing what is and is not possible. I cannot count how many times scum have been caught because they claim a role that DOES NOT EXIST. A setup that encourages hiding said facts and discouraging process of elimination (one of the most basic logic tools) should be told to the players in advance if not eliminated entirely.

End of soapbox.

[Titus]

Who else did you think was on your train? I'd put you at L-2.

I said my soapbox piece. I am done on that.

[Titus]

I'm supposing the "V" is the votecount. I'd be the third voter. It takes five votes to lynch because no one died. So who was the fourth voter?

[Titus]

I really wanted to know so I could figure out the setup for everyone. Like you said, the scum know if there's a roleblocker so why would I be so focused on what I (theoretically) already knew? Your theory seems pretty clear to you but it's just wrong. I thought I was helping with that. I said "for my scumhunt" because I felt that Dr. Pepper and NS have been avoiding helping me out by putting me down for asking questions and then skipping them. Everyone else was lurking. So yeah, I felt rather alone.

[Titus]

If you're an RB, there are two possible setups. I was also saying that I think you might be scum trying to figure out WHO the PRs are, not WHICH PRs are in the game...
Please explain how knowing how the jailer works would 'help your scumhunt'...

The jailor's function would help me confirm if their was a roleblocker or not in the game. Of course, that also had the assumption (wrong) that townies got roleblocked messages. I also assumed that the jailed target would be aware and have a night chat with their jailor. Now that I know how the jailor actually works, it is a lot less relevant. If Dr. Pepper and NS would have clarified this faster but the tone is pretty consistent just to stop going down that road. See post 659.

If the jailor had worked the way I believed (townies did get roleblocked messages), then pushing for a claim and laying out these scenarios would be very pro-town. We would be able to limit the amount of claims and force scum into the position where scum would almost always claim second. This jailor is so different from what I had known and that changed the way to properly play this.

Look when you and NS tell me to stop and not answer my questions claiming they are "mental calithenscs", how am I supposed to feel? I'm not an expert on this site. They seem to hold me to whatever standard fits your argument that I'm scummy. It's patently unfair. I'm referring to Dr. Pepper's post 659 and whichever post NS says that my questions are mental calithensics (spelling may be off).

[Titus]

The jailor I am used to does remove the target from their night chat. You are right that I should have done my homework. However, the assumptions were not illogical. Ex: Assuming solving the puzzle helps and the game would be structured towards that end.

As for the nightchat, that's the jailor I knew. Why reverify what I already knew about the jailor and the roleblocker until I had some suspicion it wasn't true? That's a waste of time. The same goes for common words and strategies. No one comes on and just asks for a definition of every strategy they already know. It's a waste of time. It just turns out that roleblock is structured in a manner thatpuzzle solving doesn't help the town. That was so ridculous to me that I commented on it.

[Titus]

I was not rolefishing. I believed that ANYONE could claim roleblocked. If I knew only PRs would claim roleblocked, I never would have gone down that road!

[Titus]

@JKM, if you have what you feel is a legitimate question and someone says... go answer it yourself rather than explaining it, wouldn't you feel ignored/slighted? If it was so simple, why not just grab the relevant section. That's because who is notified of a roleblock attempt is not in the rolecard. Also, the jailor and nightchats isn't mentioned at all.

[Titus]

I'm not steering. I'm defending myself. To say I'm steering is not exactly honest.

To follow with your analogy, I'm surprised Airline B is charging me for drinks and say so. I'm surprised townies don't get roleblocked messages and I say so. In fact, I'm pissed just like the passenger on the airline.

No it's not. The wiki still didn't answer my questions. The wiki doesn't say whether or not townies get the notification of roleblocked at all. The wiki doesn't say whether or not jailor impacts the night chats at all. I'm just like the passenger on the airline. The stewardess just says look at the contract for your flight and the contract is suspiciously silent.

[Titus]

Oh that's your point. Now that I understand your point, I'll respectfully disagree and move on. I'm just the type that will stop at nothing to understand everything about how the game works. You're wrong but you clearly put forth your logic. If you were the one explaining this to me, I get the feeling this would have been resolved sooner.

I really would like to hear from Channel and Bacde. They seem to have gone missing. I'm holding out to see if they or anyone else can highlight something else I might have missed that makes Dr. Pepper appear like town. I know Bacde has said he is, I just would like to see the what the others see because apparently I miss that a lot.

[Titus]

Would you mind explaining your case concisely to a third party such as myself? I know there's lots of fragments of why you think DrP is scummy, but they've only come out in an argument between you and DrP, which has made you seem more scummy and thus your points less convincing. If you could set them out for me that would be mighty helpful.

Absolutely. I'll start from the actions on Day 1 and wind up today. Dr. Pepper, you should put forth your case on me as well. I won't respond directly unless you say something verifiable untrue if you will promise to do the same. The reason I say this last part is to allow everyone to understand.

My post may not go in perfect chronological order because I'm trying to be concise which requires organization of a lot.

[Titus]

JKM/Everyone else who cares, Here's my short summary of Dr. Pepper. I haven't included every example because you asked for concise argumentation.


In post 358 Dr. Pepper says a lot that alerted me to the fact he could have been on a scum team with NS. The post, while not directly talking about NS, seems to be a defense of NS.

I mentioned in the alternative if yessiree was innocent, that NS and Dr. Pepper were my top scum reads on my initial post, which was eaten but later reposted as a picture. Dr. Pepper, before the attack was implying that Yessiree and Bob were scum due to Bob's alleged scum slip. See Post 413. Bob's alleged slip was asking a question regarding win conditions. To me, clarifying the rules is not a scum slip. Basically, anyone who said Bob's scum slip might not be a scum slip became insta scum. Agree with me or your scum type mentality. Well, either that or stupid because everything according to him is so obvious.

I say I don't feel that Bob's question was a slip and state that Rikablue was likely wrong in his analysis in my initial post. This triggers a conspiracy theory. All of a sudden his town read Rikablue is not a town read anymore after I enter the picture. Post 491 The main thing I changed was my scum targets. I had been more active, contributing more thoughts and looking at every plausible scenario. Somehow, these actions made me scummier in the eyes of Dr. Pepper.

Dr. Pepper has been leaving little sheep crumbs that Bacde is scummy. I think this is Dr. Pepper's position for if you lynch and I flip town. Post 426 Dr. Pepper implies that Bacde, the IC, is sheeping/fence sitting despite me giving a plausible opinion on why yessiree could be lynched. Sometimes agreeing in the face of evidence is not sheeping/fence sitting, but logical play. Dr. Pepper has been subtly placing that IC is scum theory by his innate focus on why the IC didn't die. He's trying to guide you to the conclusion the IC is scum but he's trapped from saying it himself because it would go against the narrative he has created for himself.

That narrative is a conspiracy theory. Dr. Pepper's focus has been on lynching me since I replaced Rikablue. He says Rikablue is town before I came along. See Post 206. Basically he said "Barring an epic bus" Rikablue is town. Post 491 is where he goes full on conspiracy theory. He says he read Rikablue is town barring an epic bus.

All of a sudden, Dr. Pepper says that I'm scummy because I entered the game and changed my opinion. I didn't think the question by Bob was a slip at all. That leads Dr. Pepper to the conclusion that I'm mafia and that Rikablue was conducting an "epic bus". The more logical and accurate conclusion was that I was town that disagreed with Rikablue, the former account holder. But wait, there's another problem why Dr. Pepper can't just say that. I fosed him in the off-chance Yessiree was innocent.

Dr. Pepper blew a gasket. Why blow a gasket if the group was sure Yessiree was scum? That's because Dr. Pepper knew he was scum (and Yessiree was innocent). Since my replacement, he's been tunnelling me damn near exclusively. Why not look at the other players? Why not show the other players are town, eventually guiding the group back to your original conclusion? That's because he really wants me lynched. It was this very behavior on his part that caused me to doubt the Yessiree train.

He also has been attempting to provoke me and make you jump to rash conclusions. When I'm shorter and conciser in posting, my defenses are "weak". See post 470. I've lost count of how many times Dr. Pepper has said I'm obvious scum along with Bob. This is a play to your emotions rather than encouraging real analysis. He also wouldn't need to say he's done proving I am scum/defending himself without ever actually being over. He keeps on tunnelling.
If it was so obvious, then Dr. Pepper wouldn't have to rely on twisting my words.

Dr. Pepper also has taken several of my quotes and accused them of being scum slips when they have not been at all. I'll put forth two of the most notorious examples.

"Being the hammer" is not the problem.

He takes this quote Post 449 and argues it is a scum slip. It's not. Clearly, I'm talking about a past game where the hammerer on a mislynch was indeed a townie. Dr. Pepper acts like it was the lack of permission he had that made him look scummy. I was pretty much saying call a spade a spade. Hammering with significant investigation left to do is scummy, in my opinion regardless of how long the day has lasted. See Post 510.

The alleged confirmed town slip.

In Post 610, Dr. Pepper suggests that I made a slip in saying confirmed town called him town. However, I quickly showed that I was referring to Yessiree and that I was trying to bury the hatchet and focus on scumhunting by posting analysis on the whole group. Dr. Pepper immediately backtracks on this being a slip. Post 614.

I ask him to re-evaluate me because one of his alleged slips was verifiably false. He refuses. Why refuse? If he goes back and still thinks I'm scum at least he could pretend he's analyzing. He's not analyzing at all. He's just yelling at you that his solution is obvious. He's appearing overly confident so you get on his bandwagon without thinking. He doesn't welcome analysis. That's the only conclusion I can reasonably draw from that.

Yessiree provides the best possible defense to Dr. Pepper's conspiracy theory which started this ball of wax. Yessireee's Post. Just reread it knowing that Yessiree was town. I know many of you thought he was insane but I think he was trying to draw scum to his train once he feared being lynched. He wound up drawing town instead and giving NS a good mislynch. Of course, that's my read.

Vote: Dr. Pepper

[Titus]

I did forget one other major thing that just happened in the past couple pages. What kind of player forgets the number of votes required to lynch if they are actually scumhunting?

[Titus]

Ok. I'm not a big believer in dichotomies either Bacde. I just happen to think Dr. Pepper is scum. I get the feeling you are seeing something I am not, because I have you as a town read. Can you please give me the proverbial kick in the ass to help me see things?

I do see your point there about lurkers possibly being scum. I'm not agreeing with you at moment, but there have been somethings that have unnerved me. I'd like you to flesh it out a bit. Who do you think is scum the most out of them?

[Titus]

I'm not 100% on anyone specifically, but I can guarantee you that at least one of the lurkers is scum.

If I was scum, and my partner (lets say DrP) got in a huge argument with a townie, I'd do my best to try to lay low and not stick out too much.

Same thing if I was scum, and two townies were in an argument and accusing each other (let's say titus and DrP), I would lay low still and try not to stick out too much.

The ONLY situation that one of the lurkers would not be scum, would be if both of you were scumpartners together, which doesn't seem likely to me because NS already pointed out that he didn't think you were partners either (which was something I was thinking actually). If NS was scum for whatever reason, then what he said was necessarily true. If NS was town, then he actually believed what he said. Either way, I don't see both of you as scum, and NS's statement helps reaffirm my read of that.

This makes sense. I don't know what statement by NS you are referring to, but NS has been suspiciously lurking as well. I wouldn't be so quick to write him off. I might be suffering from confirmation bias but I don't think so.

I posted my concise argument on post 722. That should filter out the chatter and show what the clear analysis is.


@Pebro, there was a death night one of a town PR role. I had no reason to suspect that the special roles had acted differently at all. I was then shot the next night.

[Titus]

Channel, just jump to post 722. It lays out my case. Then Dr. Pepper can put his up and we can move on.

I have my opinions on who the scum team is, but I don't want to drag the game down so far where people don't want to play.

[Titus]

Dr. Pepper, I feel there were several false statements in your post on 737. However, the town has asked this not to turn into a wall of text. I am not ignoring your posts at all, and I want to respond but I'm going to do what the town wants and move on so we can actually put forth evidence on other people. So I'm not ignoring you, I'm not responding.

[Titus]

1) That you never twisted my words. See post 720 for some areas where you twisted.
2) You imply that I'm calling you scummy because you called the IC scummy. This is wrong on several fronts. I accused you of planting seeds of doubt about the IC preemptively. You've never claimed the IC was part of your alleged scum team.
3) The backtrack is obviously true. If it was a simple mistake, you would be willing to look and see if you made mistakes elsewhere.
4) I don't have to look for shit. You provide plenty.

Everyone can figure out what the truth is. I'd rather not drag this out to massive walls of text.

[Titus]

1. I did, in post 720. I'm not turning this into a wall of text.
2. Why are you putting mild suspicion onto other people if it's so obvious that Bob and I are scum to you? You would have no need to do that. Yet, you refuse to revisit your conclusions that Bob and I are scum.
3. Alright, we'll let the town decide there.
4. Moving right along.


Well, your theory that scum shot the IC implies the scum are newbies. Yet, I am not a newbie (only a newbie to this site). So.. by that logic, I'm not scum.

[Titus]

1. Read post 720. I will not turn this into a wall of text since several players do not want that.
2. If you're so confident, why do you need other avenues?

What self-meta?


@JKM, I agree with your point. I just wonder, why Bob? Also, is there anything that makes Dr. Pepper town (other than the convenient knock off strategy)? If I had to go with scum based on your theory, I'd go with Channel. I still think NS is the likely scum lurker but I'm willing to hear this out.

[Titus]

This is so ironic considering you were confident in me and NS and now you say Channel.

Because on the off chance that one of you flip town, I need to find other possibilities.

Freaking point it out to ME. I do not give a damn about what everyone else thinks of walls

I didn't say Channel. The context was clearly coaxed in the alternative, if I had to exclude you and NS as scum, who would I take. Not your preemptive bullcrap.

I'll grab the posts that suggest people don't want walls of text.

[Titus]

So the last time I was on I promised to go and reread the Titus/Dr Pepper debate because I was starting to doubt my DocPepScum/TitusTown read. And I think probably a part of why I haven't rushed back to do that is because

oh my god the walls, the walls of text

.

So I'm going to try to look at it in a slightly skimmy way, trying to pick out particularly relevant posts like when people vote for them and such, to try and get a condensed read. It'll do for the short term and, hey, if we end up moving onto something else rather than this wallfest I probably won't complain.

And Maybe DrP is scum, and if he is you need to convince me of it because I'm not seeing it.

I just saw a bunch of wall arguments from two people who both looked like they wanted town to win, so if you saw something from DrP that indicates that he is scum instead, you should by all means quote it and point it out to me and explain why it reveals DrP's underlying scum psychology.

I am not lurking. I am avoiding the idiotic back-and-forth.

There you go JKM. Posts that suggest Bacde, Channel and NS don't want this. At least one of them must be town.

[Titus]

Ok, I interpreted it as not wanting wars of text between the two of us. Are you suggesting that they wanted me to just move on from questioning Dr. Pepper?

NS is scummy in his own right and I was suspicious of him in my initial game entering post. He pushed very hard on that day 1 lynch of Yessiree. I know some don't view how that day ended as suspicious but I do. NS's entire motivation seemed to be ending the day quickly when we had plenty of time to make it a proper lynch. I don't care how many people gave him permission to hammer. His actions to me looked scummy.

[Titus]

Grr in all my posts where I say look at 720 I mean 722. My mistake.

[Titus]

The thing is I do. I want everyone, not just you and me, to be able to effectively scum hunt. If that means I have to tell you look at post 722 until I am blue in the face I will. If the players I quoted state that I misunderstood their intentions and clarify, I will act accordingly. There are more people here than you and me.

Your second paragraph invites so many assumptions. My post talks about if we're looking at the lurkers (so by definition you're excluded) and for some reason I couldn't take NS as scum, I'd take Channel. Your posts about Bacde at the start of Day 2 have no such caveats.

Anyway, what do you say that we continue looking at the other players? Let's take a look at Channel, Bacde, Pebro, NS and Bob objectively.

If the theory is accurate that me versus Dr. Pepper is town, then who are our most likely scum suspects. I don't think Dr. Pepper is town, but I'm not going to have tunnelvision for too long.

Channel - Jumps on the Dr. Pepper train then vanishes, has contributed little, but supposedly has a meta of this thing

Bacde - Seems to be gearing the conversation, not really seeing anything scummy from him at first glance

Pebro - Lukring, but contributing when he's present

NS - Pushed for the fastest lynch possible, jumped trains because Yessiree (confirmed town) wasn't being lynched fast enough

Bob - There was an alleged scum slip (which I disagree with awhile back) and he's sorta contributed his opinions. He seemed to be better at the start of Day 2 and has had a resurgence recently.

[Titus]

@JKM, I agree with your point. I just wonder, why Bob? Also, is there anything that makes Dr. Pepper town (other than the convenient knock off strategy)? If I had to go with scum based on your theory, I'd go with Channel. I still think NS is the likely scum lurker but I'm willing to hear this out.

This is so ironic considering you were confident in me and NS and now you say Channel.

Because on the off chance that one of you flip town, I need to find other possibilities.

Freaking point it out to ME. I do not give a damn about what everyone else thinks of walls

I didn't say Channel. The context was clearly coaxed in the alternative, if I had to exclude you and NS as scum, who would I take. Not your preemptive bullcrap.

NS is scummy in his own right and I was suspicious of him in my initial game entering post. He pushed very hard on that day 1 lynch of Yessiree. I know some don't view how that day ended as suspicious but I do. NS's entire motivation seemed to be ending the day quickly when we had plenty of time to make it a proper lynch. I don't care how many people gave him permission to hammer. His actions to me looked scummy.

Spot the inconsistency?

No I do not. What is inconsistent?

[Titus]

Of course, when he puts the question like that, even I would pick that 11 days left to investigate and hammering is scummier than hammering with 5 days left. Both have investigation that can still be done to avoid a mislynch.

[Titus]

Because I want everyone to be able to scumhunt at prime effectiveness, that makes me scum NS? Really? Either I'm being belligerent by ignoring the requests by people for no walls of text and therefore scummy or I'm being scummy by honoring them. That's a no win scenario.

[Titus]

That's not helpful and just shows that the statement was meant to be a catch-22 and not real scum hunting. Let's knock off the juvenile crap and scumhunt.

[Titus]

JKM, can you try to rephrase that again? I'm not following. The questions we put forth were designed to be an attempt to bury the hatchet between me, Dr. Pepper and NS. I answered accordingly. I'm not understanding the inconsistency. Can you try again? Your sentence was kindof a run on.

As for early hammerers showing more conviction is not always true. An early hammerer could easily be hammering because they wanted the day over. The quicker the end of the day, the less time to scum hunt. Also, does switching votes immediately before hand indicate a conviction that Yessiree is scum? I don't see that very much at all.

[Titus]

If I "bury the hatchet" with the scum, I can force them to start proving that everyone else is innocent. If I can prove everyone else is innocent, then the town will see them as scum via process of elimination. However, if I keep arguing with them and no additional scumhunting gets done, the scum can sail to victory possibly.

JKM, you clearly thought there was no investigation to be done. You're presenting points and counterpoints in a logical manner. You are active and not twisting my words. You're so town it bloody hurts. I disagree with you sometimes but you're town.

[Titus]

Tunneling you as town? What do you mean by that? I thought tunnelling only applied when you were hunting scum?

[Titus]

Thank you! You are much clearer than me.

Vote: Nobody's Special

774 makes total sense. If you cannot be certain who is scum directly, you can solve the puzzle backwards. Start by eliminating known towns. Then, when you get to who is left, they have to be scum. That's the process of elimination.

[Titus]

Tunneling you as town? What do you mean by that? I thought tunnelling only applied when you were hunting scum?

You missed this question JKM.

[Titus]

You're going to have to grab me whatever post. You would have needed a reason, I shouldn't have let you go easy if you didn't.

Right, scum don't NEED to help do process of elimination. However, process of elimination works as a method of countering scum who tunnel you. Eventually, by proving everyone else innocent, then the town should see that the other guy is scum who has been tunnelling you. If not, you take the lynch but town wins anyway. Their refusal to go along with it only highlights them as scum. If for some reason you encounter a hiccup in the process of elimination, maybe you were wrong about your target being scum.

[Titus]

Also, what kinda of town says maybe they are scum? That's freaking weird JKM.

[Titus]

And I was saying his logic for suspecting me of buddying was off. I've questioned him. He's given appropriate answers. I'm not going to question someone incessentanly. If someone gives me a logical answer, I move on.

Umm JKM, if there's 10 pairs of people playing a game designed for less than 10 we have a problem. So yeah, I don't think you're understanding. The setup is designed for a situation like the one where we currently have. I would prove that you, Pebro, Bacde, and Bob were innocent. Scum wouldn't run around proving town innocent. By doing that, you'd see the obvious facts that I'm town.

I do believe you did. I don't exactly keep a list but I would have noticed something scummy from you and commented on it. I've commented on things such as your sudden changing of mind from hearing from Channel. You answered. I really don't think I would have let something slip for no reason.

[Titus]

Ok I've seen this but I had a busy day at work. I will reply tomorrow with more depth if asked.

@JKM, The act of buying the hatchet alone (by that I mean not arguing back and forth over and over) does not prove either person as town. However, by doing that, the players must analyze posts from other people. That analysis (or lack thereof) should reveal who is scummy. If that still doesn't work, then the town player would logically show who else is town. If a player proves other players are town, then most likely the player doing the proving is town since scum don't go out of their way to prove people as town.

[Titus]

@JKM I'm not seeing how scum pairs are relevant. Also, disagreeing with analysis doesn't mean scummy.

@Dr. Pepper You seem to have missed post 787.

@All, Sorry for the slower day. I had a long day at work. Tomorrow may be better.

[Titus]

@Bacde, Yes, I still think Dr. Pepper is scum along with NS. I keep asking for people to tell me why he's town other than a feared T v T situation. I'm open to the possibility of Dr. Pepper being town, but I'd like to hear a reason why Dr. Pepper is town (beyond activity) from someone other than Dr. Pepper or NS.

@JKM, Burying the hatchet with scum is not a great plan. It's a plan of semi-last resort. In order to consider that plan, you have to essentially believe that a lot of people don't see your suspect as scummy at all. Burying the hatchet also allows the player to see if they or the others were right about the target being town. The burying the hatchet plan cannot be repeated in the same game. Suppose that Adam and Brent are arguing. Adam resigns himself to the fact that the group won't find that Brent's scummy. So he proves Charlie, Deb, Frank and Gina innocent. Since those players are confirmed innocent, Bob must be the scum. If Bob flips town, then Adam loses because Adam himself already confirmed all the other players as town. That's why scum cannot do the plan I'm calling burying the hatchet. I don't really see how "scum pairs" fits in; perhaps I'm being dense.

[Titus]

@JKM, you were concerned with my plan. I've tried to clarify it the best I could. You are not understanding that, or you're pulling a gambit. I am uncertain as to which. If you want to move on, I'm fine because I am used to players not understanding what the hell I am doing. As long as you see that my plan is to prove people as town, to give scum less of an out, then you don't really NEED to understand the details. I'd want you to so that we could work together and eventually trap Dr. Pepper and NS into a corner. It will become obvious that Dr. Pepper and NS are scum because they will have to drop little hints that everyone else is scum like Dr. Pepper did with Bacde and they won't ask questions of people to flesh out thoughts that aren't on their scum target. Basically, Dr. Pepper would be stuck with his "its so obvious" routine.

People are just seeming to vanish from the game when either myself or Dr. Pepper are questioned which I find that really odd. People should be playing regardless of whether or not they are pressured. They should look at the responses of those under pressure to form their own conclusions.

If I really get stuck, I focus on language. Liars tend to give off subtle clues, such as dehumanizing their targets, employing excessive formal language for them, or applying rage or other emotions in situations where it is uncalled for by the logical scenario. I believe these have led me to Dr. Pepper being scum along with NS. If someone can give me reasons why they are town other than fearing a town v town scenario, I'd welcome it. If you think that my methods of looking at language need work, tell me. However, I'm not going to change my vote out of fear or pressure.

[Titus]

@JKM, you're right. We cannot prove people as town 100%. However, it can be pretty damn obvious. For instance, you and Bacde are fairly active with no language indicative of deception. So, I can be fairly certain you are town. Both of you set up scenarios to get information. Both of you are willing to take the lead while scumhunting. Dr. Pepper and NS speak in manners that indicate deception to me. Scum eventually will show indications of deception in their speech or they will cease posting altogether.

[Titus]

@Pebro, NS has been inactive. Post 802 is in the future tense. If we continue to scum hunt and show a lot of people are very protown besides them, they will have a problem. So they will be forced to try and drop hints that other players are scummy in order to prevent the town from getting organized. An organized town scum hunting together will catch the scums. NS hasn't been doing this as much as Dr. Pepper yet but they both will.

@Dr. Pepper, I realized I missed a question. Again, your statement about Channel takes my answer out of context. I figured the question meant if I had to exclude you and NS who would be scum. I answered Channel. I'm not so fixated that you and NS are scum to the point where I'd rule out anything else. I just really believe you are scum.

[Titus]

Scum will not sit idly by and let a town organize and build trust with each other. If three members of the town trust each other fast enough, then the scum will lose because those three members wouldn't vote each other. Scum must cause chaos.

[Titus]

Ok, there have been a lot of questions to me since I stepped out a few hours ago.

NS, you basically asked what causes me to give someone a town read in post 814. Agreeing with me does NOTHING to influence my town/scum read on someone. Levels of activity and language indicators influence my scum or town reads. When scumhunting, I look for certain patterns. For instance, overformality. If someone starts using large words that do not they normally do not. Another sign, which no one has done here, referring to suspects as less than human. If someone says, I would "lynch that", my suspicion of them would increase. Another indicator to me is selective aggressiveness/over-confidence. This is where Dr. Pepper registers off the charts scum to me. He's angry and not angry intermittently when FoSed. Someone who is legitimately angry about a FoS maintains that anger. It's not selectively used when someone is disagreeing with you or being dense. Scum may withdraw from the group to avoid displaying these indicators.

People who are very active but do not display these indicators will be solid town reads for me. JKM is a perfect example of this IMO. His language is open. His emotions don't fluctuate based on whatever the hell is convenient at the time. He's never referring to people as less than human. His language has never changed between formal language and informal language. Basically, no indicators of deception are present in his speech.

This video, has many of the same indicators that I would use to detect deception. It has some irrelevant non-verbal cues (such as inappropriate smirking) but I still recommend it to anyone trying to understand my theory about language revealing scum (beyond scumslips). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_6vDLq64gE

So, the short version NS, I care more about what you say and the plausibility of what you say than who you believe or vote for.


--------------------------------------

NS, you're saying I don't interact with Channel enough? The dude posts maybe once every other day. That doesn't leave me any opportunity to interact with him. When his post count increases, so will my scrutiny.

----

However, NS you seem to have flopped on whether or not Bob's alleged slip was scummy. Post 778 within the spoiler sets out your change of heart indicating Bob's alleged scumslip might not be a slip at all. However, you seem to have flipped back to the slip being an alleged scum slip. I don't like flip-flopping analysis. I like it even less when the context hasn't changed at all.

----------

Why can't I make it to lylo? I give my opinions and I try to foster communication. I'm misunderstood at times (probably due to my own lack of clarity) at points, but why can't I make it to lylo?

[Titus]

I never really considered my language as overly formal. However, if y'all do see it that way, then I do understand why you'd find that suspicious. I consider my speech as the normal way I talk. Feel free to read my ISO in this one and compare it to other games on the site where I am confirmed town (EX: Newbie 1372). You'll find they match.

Also, again with the overthinking. The alleged scum read seems to change on a dime. First, I'm not doing scumhunting at all. Then, I'm overanalyzing. Scum have a huge problem with analyzing at all, but I'm scummy for overanalyzing? This is clearly shifting sands for convenience.

[Titus]

So what? Finish your thought.

You can change my mind. Contribute thoughts without indicators of deception.

[Titus]

??? What the heck is that?

[Titus]

You're being paranoid now. I am one of the fastests responders to posts.

[Titus]

How can I be so fast to response if I am being so careful about my language. Not possible.

[Titus]

I'm off for the night. Later.

[Titus]

I am not ignoring what JKM did at the lynch. I called him on it awhile ago and discussed it. I didn't think his reason was smart but it could have been town so I watched him. To say I ignored it is wrong. Someone says, I take just as much responsibility for something doesn't mean that player is just as scummy. Players havr their own motivations.

Dr. Pepper's post is pretty much scum wouldn't be scummy because it would attract attention. Attracting attention isn't universally bad if the scummy player is persuasive enough or if the reason scum attracted attention is very protown (bussing for instance).

This post is exactly the separation I mentioned scum would try to do. Notice he says a lot of people aren't hunting but doesn't specify you, leaving you to fill in thd gaps.. Channel's asleep but Pebro seems to be hunting. Bacde needs a prod but seems to be hunting. Bob hunts in the posts he has. NS has been hunting me alone for the most part.

[Titus]

I was posting my opinions on the alleged lurkers Dr. Pepper, not yours.

[Titus]

Ok y'all. A plane just crash landed in San Francisco. That's not where I live but I drive there from time to time. It has nothing to do with me and I'll be fine. If anyone knew anyone on the flight my condolences. No one seems to be hurt though. I'm responding to that because I indicated West Coast and nothing more. It's not my area but my condolences go out to the people on that flight. This is a clarification message I'm posting it in all of my games so y'all will know I'm here and fine. No one seems to be hurt, that's the important thing.

[Titus]

Glad to hear you're alright Titus, and I hope anyone you all know in the area is ok too.

Bob, Titus's posts tend to come across and overly formal on the most part. She'd only used "y'all" in one post before I picked her up on it and it was a "goodnight y'all" post - one that was informal and not relating to the game. Since then, she's only used it in her post about the crash landing.
The fact that as a response to me saying "you're overly formal" she uses y'all just doesn't sit well with me. It may have been a subconscious thing to try to be less formal, or it may have been a conscious effort. Either way it seems like a cheap attempt to be less formal, which I don't like...

I generally speak using y'all when addressing a group of people. It's not a cheap attempt at anything. That post about the crash landing was meant as a "real life issue post" and not meant as part of the game and shouldn't be analyzed as such. So yeah, I know that's going to make me look more scummy for using y'all less but frankly I don't care. I'll talk how I talk. When I say overly formal, it's a total shift in tone from town play. Compare me to Newbie 1372, you'll see my language is the same.

[Titus]

Yeah I didn't mean to use it as game analysis, but I couldn't truthfully say "Titus has only said y'all once the whole game"...
Searching your ISO for "y'all" shows that you don't actually say it in the game though... that's my issue. I doubt the way you talk out loud replicated the way you type your arguments on here, so the use of y'all seemed strange to me. It's not exactly proof though, don't really feel like it warrants this much discussion.
The Bob/Titus link really is just too strong to ignore though...

What Titus/Bob link? I've questioned Bob like any other player. He just seems to be agreeing with me on who the scums are. Dr. Pepper's original accusation of me was solely because I wouldn't go along with a Bob lynch (because I didn't view his question as a slip). Basically, Dr. Pepper has said scum is Titus/Bob over and over, creating that impression.

@Pebro, Beyond lurking, what is the case for Channel being scum? I'm open to revisiting Dr. Pepper/NS as scum but I'd like to be shown that one of Dr. Pepper/NS is town or that Channel is unmistakably scum.

[Titus]

Way to misrep, Bob. Just because I didn't think yessiree was more likely to be scum than Titus doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't think Titus was or wasn't scum.

And I didn't vote for Titus

because

I wanted yessiree dead; the two are completely independent.

I have a different issue with your flip. Why did you feel the wagon on yessiree was going to fall apart despite JKM being willing to hammer? The excuse about wagons falling apart if not maintained is bullcrap.

[Titus]

Way to misrep, Bob. Just because I didn't think yessiree was more likely to be scum than Titus doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't think Titus was or wasn't scum.

And I didn't vote for Titus

because

I wanted yessiree dead; the two are completely independent.

I do believe you can have two suspects and change between them Bob. That's the whole point of having two suspects. The problem is that NS doesn't really suspect me as scum because he is scum.

[Titus]

The excuse about wagons falling apart if not maintained is bullcrap.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just what about the yessiree lynch was failing to be maintained?

[Titus]

@Pebro, I'm going to make a post that summarizes my feelings on NS.

[Titus]

Suspicious Behaviors by NS

1) On post 66, says he won't call a scum team. On post #252 calls Bob/Channel the scum team. Post #310, he's back on the Yessiree train despite Yessiree not being apart of the alleged scum team he's called because he's "convinced" yessiree is scum. He hasn't backed off of Bob/Channel being scum at all. In fact, he ceases mentioning them all together after post #252.

2) Pushes the Yessiree lynch to the point of absurdity. Post #74, he explicitly asks for a yessiree lynch ("Can we please lynch yessiree?"). Later, NS votes me because Yessiree's lynch is going nowhere supposedly despite being at L-1 with a hammerer confirmed. His emphasis on the vote is because "unmaintained wagons fall apart". My question is though, why didn't he push is confirmed scum team of Bob/Channel this hard?

3) Post 121 -

I honestly can't recall why I suspected Rika. It's probably something I thought I saw in post 96. But let's do this and see if he slips again:

He voted Rika

gene, I was basically telling you that scumslips do indeed exist, and if you believe they don't, you're as deluded as if you also believed in magical fictional characters.


Also, yessiree, I've been scumhunting. At least I don't quote statistics.

This is an overly hostile post that he admits he's fosing people but he cannot remember the reason later.

4) Post 818 is hypocritical to say the least. NS says I have not enough interaction with Channel. Since the yessiree lynch, NS has mentioned Bacde, Pebro and JKM a whopping 0 times in his posts. He did however, vote Channel during the day post 684. He asks for everyone's read on Channel (but never posts his own). He stops any mention of Channel after this point. Instead, his focus turns exclusively to myself and Bob.

5) Post 826, advocates lynching Bob "just because".

The context of these posts is clear to me. NS intended to get Channel lynched (probably would spin it as a "policy lynch" gah I hate those), but when the town didn't focus on him, NS changed over to myself and Bob. NS basically tries to push whoever he thinks will get lynched and drops the name of those who suspect him as scummy without evidence.

[Titus]

Umm that just muddled it more. So your reason for wanting to lynch me is because Channel never spoke enough?

[Titus]

If he had interacted more, and had proven his scumminess, I'd've lynched him. Since he's lurking and null, I chose you.

This post pretty much proves my point that NS doesn't really have arguments/confidence as to who is scum but is rather whimiscal about who he lynches. Generally, voting should be reserved for who we think the scum is, not gee there's no one better available.

[Titus]

Why is CDB a good lynch? I don't think we should lynch someone just because there's a deadline approaching and they are a lurker. What suggests CDB is scummy beyond his lurkiness?

[Titus]

Ahh, well that makes sense but then again, that argument is just Channel being scummy because he's lurky. I'm not going to stand in the way of a Channel lynch but I was meaning something more in the way of behavioral/linguistic analysis showing Channel is scum.

[Titus]

I'm understanding your argument that scum might not be around, and that's why no one is being voted up. However, that's just a rephrase of Channel is lurking and lurker scum are the reason no one is being voted up. I'm saying that I want something more than lurking.

[Titus]

I really don't like this, but if that is the normal play for this site, I will do this.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

Channel is at L-1. Announce intent to hammer if you intend to hammer. Also, if there's any further investigation to be had, please post your questions or updated reads.

[Titus]

Hey look, if the site really says that lynching is better than no lynching, that's what I'd do. I know I'm responsible for not insisting on more evidence. I don't agree with your logic and if I suddenly did that would be scummy. I'm stuck between a rock in a hard place. If I don't vote Channel, then I'm causing a no lynch which is scummy. You've also just proven what happens when I vote Channel.

What is the proper thing to do when you don't agree on a lynch but the alternative is a no lynch?

[Titus]

Well the thing is, I'm not sure what helps the town. I know I'm not some all-knowing God. There's a chance I could be wrong on NS/Dr. Pepper as scum. I just want someone, anyone to give me a reason that Channel is scum or Dr. Pepper/NS is town beyond activity levels. I'm not going to derail a lynch unless I'm 100% certain I am right, but I'm not certain of that. This is the first time that this has happened to me while playing mafia.

[Titus]

That "analysis of the circumstance" could easily apply to any lurker. Something specific to Channel would make me feel a lot better about this.

[Titus]

Your analysis could apply to Bacde, Channel and NS. None of them have contributed significant analysis in the past few days. I expect Bacde to post more analysis due to his own posted conflict about something not adding up (but then again, he reads town but with a sudden absence). Channel posted and could have caused a wagon on Dr. Pepper but y'all were against voting Dr. Pepper. The votes have just split evenly due to the fact we've failed to organize. Channel just happens to post the most promises of analysis and also fails to follow through on his promises. Pretty much lurking.

[Titus]

Look I'm going to go to bed, but you seem really lynch happy. You've said you're fine to lynch me, NS, Channel or Bacde at least. Now, I know there cannot be four scums. I'm beginning to severely question my town read on you but that would leave me with too many scums.

VOTE: unvote

I'm not sure what I want to do but I know I can come back to this in the morning. Hopefully Bacde would have posted his analysis by then.

[Titus]

Im pretty bored of this day.
CDB says the end of Marathon weekend will be the time he posts, yet he isnt here. While he posts on all his other games.

Titus then calls out CDB after saying its scummy of me to call out CDB.

Plus the Bob-Titus link is too damning. Anyway, this day sucks cause not everyone is participating

Where/what is the context for this? I've always said lurking by itself isn't scummy. It's suspicious sure but not necessarily scummy.

Again, you are implanting a link that doesn't exist Dr. Pepper. The link is you and NS, you just passed right over him again.

Bob, I don't think we can get a replacement for Channel to be up to speed by the end of the day. That seems like stalling.

[Titus]

@Bacde as player - You're getting town vibes from Pebro but you're saying we should have lynched Gene. Yet, Gene is Pebro, so I'm a little confused here.

@Bacde as IC - Does this setup call for lynching no matter what? What is the proper response when the group won't lynch your scum targets but you'd be standing in the way of a lynch entirely?

[Titus]

Bob hasn't sheeped my votes. I haven't been coaching Bob at all. Your premise that I've been coaching Bob naturally depends on your conclusion being accurate which is circular reasoning. Also, this allegation of my "coaching" him early day 1 is ludicrious. I wasn't even in the game early day 1. Rikablue was in the game early day 1. In fact, he was voting for Bob.

@Pebro - I wasn't hiding my vote at all. I put it out there with my reason.

@Bacde - You missed my question for you as the IC in post 913.

[Titus]

BTW Titus that Bacde misrep was just too damn obvious.

Also Bob's call for a replacement, seems like a saving grace for CDB if CDB is his buddy. This theory works if Bob and CDB are partners

What misrep are you talking about? I never misrepped him. Again, this is another random accusation.

[Titus]

Yeah, 910 said to me that Bacde was getting town vibes from Pebro. Post 913 is saying that Bacde isn't feeling better about Pebro's slot as town. That's how I read it. So I asked the question because I was confused.

[Titus]

That's what the posts said to me, so I asked for clarification. It's not a misrep when you ask for clarification. He could easily say what you're saying now, that I misinterpreted him.

[Titus]

Only 6 more players to confirm what? Is that meant for this thread?

Yeah, and I admit it wasn't a strong reason Pebro. Yet, if it came down to it, I figured site meta would at least want the information from a lynch. I wasn't sure what to do in that situation, so I figured I wasn't going to be stubborn and bullheaded at expense of the group.

Basically, it's just the reason NS did here.

[Titus]

Look, there was no investigation ongoing at the time. Everyone had left. No investigation = the day has pretty much ended. I even asked if anyone had any additional avenues to go down to investigate and they should post them to make sure I wasn't acting premature at all. Way for misrep.

[Titus]

1. Absolutely, you can hunt for the second scum partner.
2. There was nothing more to investigate because everyone seemed rigid in who they thought were scum.
3. I was still investigating and there was more time on the clock.
4. I'm convinced your scum, but I'm also convinced that I won't get enough people to agree with me in the time allotted.
5. The standard is when no one is investigating anymore, everyone (who is active) seems firm in their scum opinions, and people want the day to end.

[Titus]

1. I am already convinced you and NS are scum. So what partner would I be hunting for?
2. I didn't. I thought the lynch on yessiree might have been a bad idea at the end of the day.
3. There's technically time on the clock if we wait until the last second. Still there's not a lot left for the purpose of this site given we are only required to post once every two days. The players who were active had appeared to make up their minds.
4. The chat was dead. I can't convince people just by posting the same damn thing over and over with myself.
5. That's a total misrep. You asked for the standard to end the day. That's when no one is investigating anymore that day. I don't know where you got that from.

[Titus]

1. Because of the dillema I have cited previously. If I'm stubborn, we could have no lynch at all, which means no information for the town. That's why I wanted Bacde to answer whether this site always requires a lynch.
2. Because it seems to be him or no lynch at all.
3. Yes it did. You just didn't like the answer. I've posted walls upon walls detailing why you are scum. I have to try something else to get people to see that you are indeed scum. I do care if the town discusses it, they just seemed really against discussing it. I'm not going to force people to talk about what they don't want to talk about.
4. I have no way of knowing when people will come back. A decision had to be made.
5. No... by my standard I was still investigating, so ending the day was improper. Here, no one seems to be investigating. There is no double standard.

I can change my vote to you or NS easily. I'm just not going to be a five year old and insist on getting my pony. I'm going to at least try to work together with people.

[Titus]

1. I'm not going to derail the town getting a lynch at all, just to see myself be right.
2. Spending too much time defending myself is scummy. I'm also not going to convince people to vote for me. I'm not seeing where you are going with this.
3. Wait for people like Channel who never post? NS, who would never vote you because he's your scum buddy? Pebro and Bacde who haven't posted much. I had to do something to get things moving or it would have been a no lynch.
4. See response 4. This site doesn't act like my other site where decisions are made in 24 hours.
5.There is no double standard. See line three.

No. There becomes a point where continuing to argue with someone derails any investigation and turns into a he said she said style argument. I want people to see that you are scum but sometimes people just can't see it my way and I have to take another approach.

[Titus]

I'm not. But I'm not going to do something that is scummy, i.e. self voting, which is what you were suggesting I'd do by promoting my own lynch aka "going with the flow" of my own lynch. I didn't see us as having time if no one was going to be here. When I did that, folks at least came out of the woodwork.

[Titus]

I am a vanilla townie.

Don't stop looking at Dr. Pepper and NS just because the time is short. I have asked y'all to tell me repeatedly why they are town but no one has responded. I have asked Dr. Pepper to do a wall on me. He refuses. NS has contributed virtually no scumhunting today. The two rarely interact with each other. Why?

Just check NS' s ISO and you should see why I suspect him.

VOTE: Nobody's Special

[Titus]

You have tried to lynch me and argued I am scum but your refusal to put together a wall suggests you are trying to mislead the group or are worried about the opinions of others

[Titus]

I never said you didn't. I said your refusal to put a wall up and essentially summarize your beliefs is suspicious because any holes in logic should become apparent. Obviously I wasn't saying you never FoSed or pressured me.

Notice how Dr. Pepper skips mentioning NS again.

[Titus]

In the same post I mention that you refused to do a wall, I also mentioned how you don't interact with each other. You skip over that entirely. When I call you on it, you say that's no what we're discussing. Lol

Walls are not required to make a case legitimate. The refusal to do so suggests you can't or won't due to the case being trumped up.

[Titus]

NS is one of the most active of the lurkers. Yet, he's active lurking. You don't question NS's logic. You don't agree with his logic either. You basically call him town move on, that's the end of the day. If you both were legitimately scumhunting there would be some interaction between the two of you. Whenever I bring up NS or your lack of interaction with him, you get angry or whiny.

Everyone rarely interacts with Channel. He's not around enough for people to frequently interact on him. Pebro, you should interact with a little more as well, but you were interacting with Pebro when he was active. You're commenting on things involving Pebro even if they aren't questions from him.



The idea here is I'm not looking for a wall to defend myself. I'm looking for you to summarize so the group can see how weak the case is against me and that scum are likely pushing it. Considering you're not even willing to do that, instead just calling me slippery, then the point pretty much speaks for itself.

[Titus]

Why do you find NS town if you never interact with him? That seems like a clear, he's my buddy slip to me.

[Titus]

Never interacting =/= playstyle.

[Titus]

for me this explains it 891

And unless I miss something you didn't mention Bob at all today.

I am new to this site Pebro and I was trying to figure out what I should do in the situation where we needed to get more information but people weren't lynching who I thought was scum. I can't see why that appears scummy.

Also, I can't see why no one has been commenting on the latest exchange where Dr. Pepper said he pretty much didn't have to interact with someone to know they were town. Nothing in NS's patterns indicates he is town. NS hasn't asked questions or contributed thoughts.

There is no rationale on my train. I have no idea how to convince people that players more seasoned than myself are scum, when they label me as scummy. They can't or won't even put forth their own rationale for tunneling me this whole time. People ask me for what justifies my votes, I provide that.

[Titus]

If you really know someone is town, you'd want to understand what they are presenting to see if they shine light on who the scums are. If you don't know if someone is town, you'd want to interact with them to figure it out or to see what holes they may have. It makes no sense that two players ignore each other.

I'm not scummy so how can I be "self-aware" of being scummy? That comment makes no sense.

Also, where have I flip-flopped? The closest thing I have to a flop is the Channel decision but even then I was expression indecision and doubt.

[Titus]

I've done that a few times (disagreed with the analysis and saw where the person was coming from), mostly day 1 I believe. I can grab you links if you'd like.

I wasn't trying to end the day. I was trying to get a lynch because it's what I thought we had to do and no one was investigating.

[Titus]

NS was trying to end the day and cut it short excessively. That's been my point. In his scenario we had 5+ plus days (almost half the time) left. He shifts his vote to me so someone else (you) votes yessiree and then he rapidly hammers ending the day.

In my case, we were split 2 v 2 v 2. If I kept being a stick in the mud, I saw a real possibility of a no lynch which might severely hurt the town. So, I did something that would spur conversation (which was dead) and get us to a lynch.

So yeah, not a joke. I don't do humor well on forums.

[Titus]

@Bob, what do you mean not showing any initiative? That's bullcrap. A lynch you KNOW is a mislynch is still bad.

Dr. Pepper, why is "defending everything Titus does" in quotes. It sounds like to me you're putting words in Bob's mouth trying to make him look scummy.

[Titus]

I was voting on NS. :S Anyway, I'm out. Y'all know what I think.