We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

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/confirm

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VOTE: Boonskiies

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@Copper - You immediately noticed that I was behaving differently. That's the point. Feel free to look at my profile and check my games to date on site. My guess is you'll be able to see a different approach at work in each game. That's intentional so that I am not immediately identifiable as {VT/PRT/VS/PRS}, and also because I'm experimenting and figuring out the culture on the site here. I expect it to be awhile before I have any sort of easily identifiable meta that people can rely on, and I don't think it's at all alignment indicative since I freely say that I'm doing it on purpose as soon as I get into a game.

Why not establish an easy to identify VT meta and just imitate that when you're not VT?
Considering how many people saw your VT play (and it was good too) I'm not sure why you'd throw away the opportunity.
Perhaps... it's because you can't do a good town play because you aren't one =)?

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@death:
That's literally all you have to respond to?

JUST came out of a game involving copper223, drixx, Reubus, Dani and Lucianroy. I thought I'd start with these people since I have some data to cross reference their plays in this game.
Or were you asking me something else?

I like copper's reasoning behind testing the night skip N1. Ideally the nightskip triggers and we have a practically conftown.
But I just find it odd you'll appear as mafia when investigated. Is this type of PR used reasonably often enough to take his word? I've never come across such sort before.

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Copper's it's a bastard game, mods make abilities which force the player to play awkwardly. Like mafia having to be voted to charge or activate a power (or a miller).
I don't think it's worth risking it, let Ice the so called day-cop investigate him. That would be a start, then if we have any role-cops (likely) they can avoid the miller and see BB's abilities.

Interesting how you say "bastard game" but automatically assumes all cops are sane.
Care to elaborate on your definition of "bastard"?

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So is people voting without much reasoning/argument attached a trend in larger games?
I don't know if I want them to get away with such, it'd be too easy for scum?

pedit: My vote's staying there, but it's no longer a random vote.

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VOTE: Boonskiies

So is people voting without much reasoning/argument attached a trend in larger games?
I don't know if I want them to get away with such, it'd be too easy for scum?

pedit: My vote's staying there, but it's no longer a random vote.

Why are you voting boonskies, what makes it "non-random"?
Who are your other scum reads and who do you think is town?
Also please provide oppinions on soren/ice/brantz.

1. 106 was RVS, I thought that was super clear in a game where first couple pages are "/confirm." I stated in 401 that my vote is no longer a random vote because I hate players (mostly scums) adding a vote to a wagon under the disguise of RVS, OMGUS or PL. They don't have a good reason to attach to the vote (because the victim is town and the scum knows it) and RVS/OMGUS makes it too easy to get away with, like "it was just an RVS/OMGUS, I didn't think the wagon'd actually go all the way to lynch". It'd be quite hypocritical of me to hate such votes and yet do one myself.
As for why Boonskiies? I didn't like the tone of 400. And because of the wording in

Oh, yeah. I'm town most of the time. People who push me are usually scum.

I have no reason to withdraw my vote at current point in time.
EVERYONE is statistically town most of the time. Even if someone played 75 games and was scum all 75 games in a row, eventually the law of big numbers kicks in and even that someone will be town most of the time. This statement is globally true, like stating the obvious.
And if you're town and get mislynched, majority of your wagon is town by game design so people who voted you are statistically usually misguided town. So this statement is misleading.
I see the quote as a clever way of mindgaming people so he is more likely to survive; say something obvious, follow up with something misleading, when the readers read the first part they're so strongly in agreement that the second part will be absorbed without filter. Now when a town catches him for being scum, he can redirect the attention to the attacker because by then it should be clearly obvious in everyone's head that 'people who push me are scum'.

2. Other scum reads are Oranje Crush for 403, I explained why a few lines above. If Boonskiies wagon picks up any momentum, you have me as a scapegoat, you didn't need a good reason to vote him by claiming it's a policy lynch. Didn't respond to 253. Cop sanity was confirmed but you still didn't answer my question.
The other is Ozgin for 322. Considering how many 13 player vanilaless games don't have daykill PRs, simply mixing 2 games together doesn't make it that probable to have one either. Too confident in the existence of such role, as if someone from the same faction told him about it pregame in another thread.
Don't have strong townreads.

3. I'm incapable of matching posts with posters in this game. I recognize ice but I'm like who's soren and brantz? I just read what's being talked about and notice certain things, then realize the poster. It's not like I know many people's style anyway. Do you want me to ISO them?

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@Copper 524
I think BBmolla's claim is easy to verify so there's no reason to strongly doubt it. But the miller part is something I don't have experience with and I'm unsure how to see it, could be genuinely unfortunately miller or could be a trap. That after if his truly claimed nightskip part triggers, he'll likely be seen as conftown more so than confscum, and for some reason someone was to still investigate him and he gets busted, he had insurance preemptively anyway. I don't think there's a big harm in testing his first part, if that doesn't trigger we just lynch him because town has no reason to compound multiple lies in a claim. The question is when. I can see both pros and cons for both town and scum for skipping N1 over other nights.

I have no problem with ice's claim. Because this is a 13+13 player game opposed to a 26 player game, having at least 2 scum factions. Investigative roles are very likely hard-limited by neighbourhood, target faction, number of shots, etc. But since no scum will come out and say "hey I'm in the neighbourhood, investigate me and find out I'm scum" so while I don't doubt the role he claimed, I don't know why he bothered claiming.
There's this, albeit minor. Because this is a 13+13 player game, his chance of blindly finding both someone in the hood and that person being scum is 1 percent point lower than it would be in a 13 player game. So I could understand his possible frustration, although I think it's unlikely that anyone would have noticed the 1% chance difference by game setup difference. He becomes a significantly weaker PR if the size of the hood is not doubled also. And because the mod said the game's imbalanced and untested, I don't know if they took such into account.

@vonflare
97 sounds like you didn't realize he was 1 shot, have you realized it at this point?

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And this game is multiball, the queue thread's post 0 has the game's big picture, this thread has other details in post 1.

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UNVOTE:
Boonskiies' newbslip has been noted, it's good enough for this point in game.
Eh, actually not reading game queue isn't exactly newbish but I find it funny you're unaware of the premise of the game you're in.
I don't think the post is trying to mislead people into believing there's only 1 scum faction because it's so easy to prove otherwise.

The premise of this game is simple. We took two balanced, vanillaless 13-player games and smushed them together. No promises as to balance of the final product.

All members of the town were combined into one town faction, but other factions retained independence.

The game uses no factions other than what is considered normal.

It doesn't say exactly 2 scum factions, so although I'm leaning towards just 2, I'm still going to say "at least 2" until further evidence suggests there's only 2.
I wonder if each scum faction's just 3 members though. If so, for a scum win, at least 20 people need to die before their faction gets wiped out.

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@vonflare
97 sounds like you didn't realize he was 1 shot, have you realized it at this point?

Is this about Molla? If so where did he say he was a one shot? I missed it apparently.

blah blah

I'm a Town Miller

One-Shot

Conditional Nightskipper

blah blah

I found out the answer to my question @vonflare. Molla softclaimed in 91, didn't mention 1 shot, vonflare said in 97 to skip every night, then in 164 Molla hardclaimed with 1 shot detail added in.

It seems to me that it's rather obvious to the scum teams that they have opposite scum teams, right? My role seems to confirm two scum factions, and my guess is they already know it because it seems obvious they would have to be small and would realize their team size indicated another scum faction.

Mine too. If there aren't multiple scum factions, that means I'm very likely VT in a vanilaless game.

I think everyone should be let known about multiball now. I didn't think people would have missed it because there were multi faction talk in the queue thread already. Even post 1 in this thread is written to strongly hint multiple scum factions.
And even if scums missed it, their team size is a giveaway and would have been educated in pregame PT by his partners before daybreak, so I don't expect any scum to not know about it at this point.
So it's to our benefit that all town are aware of this too.

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Why are you playing underinformed, professor? Is your new playstyle digging your own grave or appearing panicked? Neither's working for you, sorry to say.

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@Om
Your vote frequency on Drixx is almost 1 vote per 1 meatworld day.
Just imagining you waking up and going "oh I shouldn't forget to vote Drixx today, again" makes me laugh so much.

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You're a faction specific bulletproof?

"Hey, I want you dead, please let me know whether I should kill you during the day or at night"

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You're a faction specific bulletproof?

"Hey, I want you dead, please let me know whether I should kill you during the day or at night"

"Hey look at my passive aggressive contributions that are fucking useless, stop trying to clarify things BBmolla!"

Well to be honest Drixx's posts were getting quite long and I didn't read lol. Now I see Drixx himself mentioned that.

wait, does this mean that one of the scum teams has daykill and the other has nightkill?

Interesting interpretation. I was thinking more of lynch vs NK when I said day or night. Because with ~20 town PRs there's bound to be some lynchproof and some bulletproof. That actually sounds fun, someone design such game =P

I don't recall seeing a neighbourhood claim before ChriVi either. Can you quote the first one Drixx?
As for the comment, I think ice should be the main person as he must have had a plan when he claimed neighbourhood cop and asked people to claim hoods.

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Anyone willing to do some summary of who claimed what?
I'm mainly targeting this post at Dani. Who did exactly that in the previous game but is quite MIA in this game, perhaps too conveniently at the same time as the noise involving Om, Drixx, TPTG and such.

Also with some mason people coming out and whatnot, I don't know how exactly mason works but if people are mason together can all of them confirm each other is indeed in their masonry?

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I'm scum for asking people who already voluntarily outed themselves as masons to confirm each other? Interesting stretch.

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816
I don't have reads on that many people yet but for those I considered, copper's reasoning is almost the same as mine. (a few I disagree on the town side but that's ok D1)
There has been a lot of noise to hide behind of, like I said before, Om vs Drixx or kuribo madness and whatnot. So the easy path for scum is lurking.
Considering that I wondered why a 3 people hydra would only have 6 posts in a 6 day old game. I don't like the votes either.
I initially found Narninian's vote on BBMolla scummy, but simmered down a bit after the unvote but copper's argument is within reason.

As for VysePresident, what do I say to "his play in this game is the same as your play in our last game where you were scum"?
I haven't paid much attention to Vyse, I'll ISO when I come back home later and if I indeed find it like my last scum play, I'll commit.

pedit: Can someone give me a crash course on masons? I read up on the wiki mason page but just tell me how they play and how they should play (and the significance of the role in a game like this).

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So given what people have told me so far, I misunderstood people who mentioned mason with TPTG.
I read 720 as AD saying he's mason with TPTG, but I guess what AD said was he's going to acknowledge the mason claim.
I didn't notice the sarcasm in 773 until 793, like, how do I know which of the three's posting and what he's like to figure out if it's serious or not.

Gonna post more after lunch.

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VOTE: Om of the Nom

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Reaction testing. You ruined it.

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Reaction testing. You ruined it.

Then why didn't you remove your vote immediately?

Now that you mention it, I noticed something interesting.
Shouldn't Om's reaction be the same? If even a 3rd person finds it strange, why doesn't Om?

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@ChriVi:
Well I wanted to see what Om's gonna say knowing it was a bait. If someone tells me they are reaction testing me when I'm town, I'll just acknowledge it and laugh over the silliness. If someone does that when I'm scum, I'd not directly respond.
You're so focused on the vote you are not reading 866~868 when those are what I wanted.

Why do you think I should remove my vote, is it because the trap failed, or is it because you like 866~868? How do you explain your unnecessarily excessive concern about Om's well-being at just 1 vote?

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Huh, interesting. What did I do that makes me have no chance of being town?

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Wow that's about the weakest argument I've ever seen. I'm going to park my vote there, tunneller.

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@ChriVi:
Well I wanted to see what Om's gonna say knowing it was a bait. If someone tells me they are reaction testing me when I'm town, I'll just acknowledge it and laugh over the silliness. If someone does that when I'm scum, I'd not directly respond.
You're so focused on the vote you are not reading 866~868 when those are what I wanted.

Why do you think I should remove my vote, is it because the trap failed, or is it because you like 866~868? How do you explain your unnecessarily excessive concern about Om's well-being at just 1 vote?

Idgaf about Om's well being in this game (he's my bae so I care otherwise), but because you already pointed out that it was a reaction test... At that point the reaction test is ruined and there's no point to attempt it anymore.

Your vote should either be to pressure or to lynch. If you're doing neither (b/c you've already said your vote was for your failed reaction test), then your vote should be helping elsewhere.

That's a very reasonable point. I'm sold.

About Om:
898 is interesting. This is like newbtown's reaction in their very first LyLo.
The last couple pages of interacting with Om makes me lead slightly town or a Oscar deserving scum. Not enough evidence to believe the latter.

Turns out I'm pretty much dead to the world & don't feel like turning my mess of thoughts into words again. Catch you guys tomorrow for real. (I promise I'm not flaking again, Dram.)

#Sorry#Dealwithit

Was gone all weekend but after reading up, scumreading vonflare would be sound but I'm hesitant since I've only read the most recent pages so withholding for now. Unfortunately due to assessments ect I can't really post until after Tuesday. Happy hunting

Speaking of who actually reminds me of my scumplay last game, these two. I haven't played any game with Vyse so I don't know how typical this line of play is with him, but with such logic I would hold back for 4/5 of the playerbase. So combined with ChriVi's advice,
VOTE: VysePresident

Drixx: Kinda weirded out by the speed with which his developing train disappeared. Nothing he's done makes me suspicious, but the speed with which it was abandoned once he said something is...worth noting.

Interesting point.
If there's only one scum faction I'd be concerned but in this game, if Drixx is scum and was getting bussed then let off, that's only about 2 votes give or take. 2 people dropping off the wagon shouldn't influence others so much that the wagon disappears, because people on the wagon were supposed to have their own good reasons to vote Drixx to begin with. So taking individual reasons behind the votes and unvotes, perhaps both scum factions have attempted to pick the Drixx fruit? Purely statistically I expect 1 scum on Drixx wagon but playing to each faction's wincon, I'm leaning towards expecting 1 from each scum faction.

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@deathfisaro
Problem is Reubus pulled those stunts as town the last time as well, that's why we could have won that lylo in 1h flat if you didn't have your camping trip, so it's not a valid reason to scumread him.

My vote is on Vyse, isn't it? Reubus is more of a clumsy type than a cunning strategist so his posts in this game are more personality indicative and yet I see (both himself and myself from last game) from (him in this game).
Vyse is too disconnected from his wagon, looks like hoping that some magical scapegoat would appear and take all his wagoners while he is in hiding. Or not just his wagon but the whole game, that it will play itself.

Do you think ActionDan is scum with him for supporting his claim like he did then? Did Drixx get lucky fakeclaiming that particular role?

or are we not interpreting correctly what the mods told us about the two minis being mashed together without adaptation so he could still be mafia with that role and there actually are cross connected roles

? Some other explaination?

I like your idea about the massclaim further along the road in case there is a breaking strat.

Bolding is mine. There is 100% adaptation. My role is proof of said adaptation. The description of the game did not say they mashed them together without adaptation, just that they mashed them together.

There is certainly adaptation. "We didn't playtest this" and "the game may be imbalanced" initially led me to believe that they haven't attempted any balancing (just sorted out duplicate roles or contradicting powers), but as more people hint adapted roles I'm starting to believe that the mods have actually tried to balance the game on paper, at least.

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@vonflare
I think Boonskiies' quote is self-explanatory. People can agree or disagree with it, but to call it unexplained is a weak defence.

@Oranje
If Vyse is bait, is it drawing attention away from vonflare or Lucian? Can it be both?

I don't know how that's not scummy when I just played like that in my last scum game.

"
I'll produce a read list tomorrow.
Um something came up I have no time, sorry.
Wow so much has happened while I was busy, give me some more time to catch up.
While catching up there's tons of new stuff, I read people differently now. Post coming soon though.
Dude you guys hammered even before I could post my reads. Now the flip drastically changed my reads list I'll need to re-read the whole thread.
Repeat until endgame while producing some reads full of nulls and repeating popular reads of other people.
"

Meanwhile some other scum's going full lurk, PTAPing every 2 days with fluffy posts or knowingly eating prods for the sake of lurking.

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@Oranje
I don't like to lurk regardless of alignment because I play this game for fun, but if I'm in a towngame and a scumgame at the same time and I decide to lurk in a scumgame for whatever reason, then I'd also lurk in my towngame so people who check my activity won't catch me lurking in my scumgame.
I'd generally take people's RL business at face value because I've never lied about it whether town or scum, and it's more hoping that people wouldn't go that far abusing the online message board format to that extent.

Town with powerroles don't like to replace out

And this game is no-vt.

So if someone is busy but not replacing, it makes sense.

Not true. This post is a mix of scummy and stupid.
In a majority vanilla game, ~3/4+ of the player base are vanilla. The chance of drawing town PR would be about the same or even lower than drawing scum. So your statement would hold true because being in the top quadrant is special.
This game is "no-vt" so being a PR in this game is as special as being vanilla in another game; the most boring role in this game is still guaranteed PR.

Now having said that, plenty of town PRs replace out (whatever their reasons are). The games (that are mostly vanilla) are balanced with PRs, and if you're too busy with RL you SHOULD replace out because you're not utilizing your role to its supposed potential and tipping the game over to the scum side.

At this point I even wonder if you're intentionally putting up a poor defence for Vyse to get him lynched faster.

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@Lucian
So you think it's better to let people vote who they want shot by you, even though there'll be scums among the people who control that gun, by pure number difference town majority will decide at the end.
Is this an acceptable analysis of your thought process behind the claim?
I think I'll buy it. Vig can be tested (and since you are actively asking people for names, it won't take very long to confirm, I assume). And the vengeful part is an unnecessary risk in a fakeclaim; don't see much merit in potentially costing your faction a shot by fakeclaiming part-vengeful D1. So put these two together I don't have a big problem taking it as is at current point in time.

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Mostly just Vyse at the moment. If there were any other strong scumreads I would have repeatedly mentioned it because my vote's parked on Vyse.
I'm on the scum side of the fence regarding Reubus but I'm still around the fence. Considering how much I wished him to greatly step up his game, I don't want to believe he's still the same old Reubus I saw last game. Since copper's scum play isn't something you can easily imitate, my scum play would have been the easier path and I see glimpse of it in this game. If this was his town game, I'm quite sad.

One time as vengeful I shot a lurker and turned out to be Godfather. So I'm okay with shooting one of the inactives.
People who have been away long enough without V/LA to get prodded so far are Narninian, Jackel98 (I don't even recognize this username), and PeregrineV (same). PeregrineV, should he come back, better have a mindblowing post. But at this rate I think he'll likely be replaced. Because I have zero read on the latter two but because I remember Narninian's vote on Molla, of these three my pick would Narninian.

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Lucian - (Effectively leaning Town at this point, but keeping him here because there's stuff I want to touch on in general.) - Pinged me early on for having an odd tone, hence my interest in trying to get a feel for him. There's some off-notes, but at this point, I'm seeing a lot of stuff getting projected on to him over his actual play. Honestly, this is something I'm noticing in almost all the main wagons, and I don't really want to touch them at this point for that reason.

I also skimmed his ISO in another game of his, and I'm noticing a similar tone to this game. Not really finding him more interesting than my actual scumreads. {Future Vyse - Yes, I

know

where the momentum is heading now, and that I'm in a convenient spot etc. It wasn't the case when I was pulling these notes together. Take that as you will.}

You skimmed the encyclopedia Lucian wrote in that game but thought it was too much effort to skim 5 other people's who are also in this game?
Like you haven't been paying attention to me being a reason behind your null read, what inspired the huge commitment to read Lucian's book? The effort discrepancy is abnormal, it feels like you wanted to townread Lucian no matter what and needed supporting evidences. The amount of stuff he put out is way beyond average human being's willingness to read for the sake of verifying someone else's townread.
And since you're matching town_Lucian's tone in this game with town_Lucian's tone in the other game, what stopped you from matching scum_copper's tone in this game with scum_copper's tone in the other game?

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Sorry mod- I'm here.

Because you posted this 2 hours ago and I don't really expect you to be still making a post for the whole duration, I'm assuming you've posted this and left.
With that assumption, if you were gone for so long that pushed the mod to start finding a replacement, doesn't it (well apparently cuttlefish's pronoun is "it" =P) deserve an explanation?
If the fellow players in this game are of any worth to you, please state your excuse. I won't judge.

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I like how Vyse just waltz past my questions.
So my vote's staying there.

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^ Lihin replaced Dani

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It's fun to see people voting literally every single scum read of mine. While I post absolutely nothing.

Why are you posting absolutely nothing? If you realize you're not contributing anything to the game, shouldn't you, I don't know, POST?
Say why you're scumreading every single scum that's being voted. Otherwise this is just a sorry crumbing excuse for future opportunistic jump on a wagon (quickhammer before any claim incoming?) without an explanation and pleading not to call you scum.

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long quote

"Vig, shoot one of the people who can't defend themselves, namely people replacing out and going on V/LA."

Brilliant, makes total sense.

Your buddy on that list? Afraid you might lose him?

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@Marquis
Propose better vig shots if you don't like the names floating about.

oh no, i'm talking about lynches

we have so few of them in between multiple scum nightkills that i'd rather not waste them on what are essentially groupthink policy lynches

feel free to vig the ones with little contribution (or the rare ones you don't like and oddly enough i don't like as well), namely:

3. Toon Fighter
5. Ozgin
13. PeregrineV
16. BRantz
19. Soren
21. deathfisaro
23. Reubus Swagrid
24. Dani

and out of those i think we should limit our lynchpool to:

3. Toon Fighter
3. Toon Fighter
3. Toon Fighter

"Vig, shoot one of the people who can't defend themselves, namely people replacing out and going on V/LA."

Brilliant, makes total sense.

It's fun to see people voting literally every single scum read of mine. While I post absolutely nothing.

I really don't like this post, that's just such a weird thing to say. "Ha ha, look how good at being scum I am!"?

Beginning my catch-up process tomorrow in the morning. Will try to contribute some serious and substantial post.

@Marquis
Propose better vig shots if you don't like the names floating about.

oh no, i'm talking about lynches

we have so few of them in between multiple scum nightkills that i'd rather not waste them on what are essentially groupthink policy lynches

feel free to vig the ones with little contribution (or the rare ones you don't like and oddly enough i don't like as well), namely:

3. Toon Fighter
5. Ozgin
13. PeregrineV
16. BRantz
19. Soren
21. deathfisaro
23. Reubus Swagrid
24. Dani

and out of those i think we should limit our lynchpool to:

3. Toon Fighter
3. Toon Fighter
3. Toon Fighter

Why was I not on this list? I haven't done like anything.

VOTE: Marquis

The push on Toon feels fake.

And I thought I was bad at detecting sarcasm

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Holy crap with the quotes sorry wasn't intentional.

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@AD + Drixx
This is a mashup of 2 games, so if BP existed in both games, it's easy to make BP from game1 to be scum1-specific-BP and BP from game2 to be scum2-specific-BP.
So I'm guessing there's a higher chance the factions you two are immune to are different and won't help in identifying each other as town. Just keep them secret and make both scum factions guessing.

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ActionDan is scum fishing for whether or not I'm immune to his faction.

My question now is,

Are you immune to a specific scum faction

yes/no?

Let me correct that.

Are you immune to a specific scum faction that ISN'T an SK

So I suppose you understand now why I asked this question? (to be honest answering here truthfully shouldn't hurt, if you think I'm town here [the answer either way should still leave scum guessing])

To be honest, you asked it in a way that would be seen as fishing by everyone reading your post.

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Like you haven't been paying attention to me being a reason behind your null read, what inspired the huge commitment to read Lucian's book? The effort discrepancy is abnormal, it feels like you wanted to townread Lucian no matter what and needed supporting evidences. The amount of stuff he put out is way beyond average human being's willingness to read for the sake of verifying someone else's townread.

Good point.

I still wonder why Vyse ignored my post directed at him, and then ignored my post complaining about how he ignored my post directed at him.
I mean, if you are willing to read 250+ posts from another game just to meta someone, aren't you willing to read a couple posts in your current game?

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@Lucian
So you have a townread on Vyse?

I don't have a strong scumread on him.
Although my gut would say yes.

Two seemingly similar sentences joined by "Although".
Do you mean your scumread on him isn't strong and your gut would even say town?

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town (for now) claims:

marquis
bbmolla (may be rethinking this soon)
tptg
toon
chrivi
cerb
drixx
dan

ChriVi said the mod confirmation was 1 direction, so while Cerberus claiming neighbour and confirming ChriVi as town was very pro-town, I wouldn't say that also makes Cerberus conftown by claim.

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Is everyone okay with Jackal?
Is everyone okay with me using my Vig-shot like this day-one?

I wanted to see Jackel's ISO to answer this question but since he has so few posts I checked Jackel's recent posts through his profile instead of digging through the thread. And wow. Yes, shoot him.

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Is he active in other games or something?

In one game, it was okay to mention a player's activity (just the activity) in detail in concurrently ongoing games.
In another game, saying "X is not posting in this game but is actively posting in other games he's in" resulted in a warning.
So when in doubt, I'd go with the safer way of addressing it. I mean, activity information is quite public and you can check it yourself.

I did manage to find a post from Jackel in this thread and ISO'd him (this I know I can talk about =P). And while 1011 was directed at someone else, I use the same reasoning to support vigging Jackel.
Like, I can almost match my argument and Jackel's ISO 1:1.

[deathfisaro]

@Copper
Can you refer me to the posts? Because IIRC Pirate Ika's vote on me was naked and I don't remember much "case" from TPTG on me.

edit:
OK ISO'd PI, hopping around popular wagons and low hanging fruits, reasoning behind his vote on me was extremely weak, leaning scum.
I don't know why you asked me what I think of "their" alignments since TPTG and Toon claimed mason with each other. Are you asking me if I believe their claims? If so then yes.

[deathfisaro]

Yeah I saw PI's. He hasn't noticed me whole game and pick on me for a post after Drixx wagon lost momentum.

As for the plays regarding reaction test and stuff, there's a reason behind it but it's probably post game material.
I've never tried reaction testing as scum, so maybe I should start doing it when I'm scum to look town, if that's what people generally think. Probably better than not voting and just wasting time all game long.

[deathfisaro]

Considering how good his last scum game was, I'm still somewhat cautious but I don't find anything particularly scummy or that gives the same vibe as last game.

[deathfisaro]

Honestly, I want to make it past N1 so that I could track somebody, maybe track a person to the kill, and at least have some information. I'll participate. I just got lost at the beginning of the game, and with five pages to read a day I could barely keep up.

You want to track someone to a kill but you're not reading the game. So are you going to pick blindly and take ~10% chance?

[deathfisaro]

1612
Because you don't read my posts.
Take a guess why my vote's still on Vyse. Vyse dodged my question, my complain about him dodging my question, and a reminder of the complaint about him dodging my question. (Vyse posted between all these posts, multiple times.) It was not a hard question to answer. At this point I'm more interested in his motivation behind

supposedly missing

ALL these posts than what answer he's gonna give me, if ever.
And didn't I just spend all of today's time and effort looking at what Jackel's been up to?

Oh and I'm terribly sorry about not being able to successfully read alignments of the people who lurked all game then replaced out.
Let me know what you found out about Reubus and Dani. I'm sure there's enough content these two shared that you'll be able to convince everyone else that these two are either conftown or obvscum.

[deathfisaro]

I don't have a problem you scumreading me, I have a problem with how selective and manipulative your attached reasons are. I have provided reasons in 1623, and instead of reading you just say I'm insulting you. Your perception isn't changing because you're not reading.

[deathfisaro]

@Drixx/deathfisaro
What's your take on the Jackel98 claim?

Purely claim-wise, I find it a bit too plain but I don't find it unacceptable. Someone said it's strange to have a tracker in a game full of passive/day powers, but that's not quite true. Less than 1/3 claimed and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more night action PRs than passive/day PRs.
On the other hand I find Jackel baselessly optimistic about him successfully tracking a scum kill. I don't know if he even knows who claimed supposedly conftown and stuff since he admitted to not having read the game. Just casually walks in after spending all his time and effort on other games while ditching this one, says he should not be shot because he wants to at least make it to N1 to miraculously track scum.

I don't mind the claim but I don't like his plays so far

[deathfisaro]

Just gotten to death's "reaction test". I've looked and it reeks of scum that death doesn't really seem to know what or who he was actually looking for in his reaction test. You're supposed to at least have an idea of what sort of reaction you're looking for when you reaction test? Were just you hoping to draw up whatever most suited your needs on the spot?
Don't like Drixx's defenses which seem to be reactionary counterattacks to whoever is attacking him despite any of their prior actions (attacking a mason?), and his claim is somewhat weak. I think there are better options right now though.
TPTG and others voting Drixx: how do you feel about a death/jackel lynch over Drixx?

Congratulations you only have just about 800 more posts to go. You found the perfect scapegoat, let's all tunnel on it all day every day. And fast forward 800 posts to disregard everything that happened in between because scapegoats like me are not abundant. Scumreading Lihin for the same reason as Pirate Ika.

And I was strongly for shooting Jackel, I'm also for lynching Jackel.
VOTE: Jackel98

pedit:

What if I wasn't a normal tracker? What would that change?

Oh, you asked me to claim?

I'm a town tracker.

No specials. Just town tracker.

You claimed plain tracker. You double confirmed "just town tracker." And now you're wanting to crumb something else? Laughable. But by all means, go ahead, let's milk everything out of you before you die.

[deathfisaro]

@Jackel
Hmm... I think you missed the group of people who are okay with your claim but not with your play who are listed next to your name in the votecount.

You still haven't explained why you ditched this game. "Life is busy" doesn't explain activity in other games you're in.

You still haven't told me how you're gonna track scum without reading the game. etc.

pedit:
@copper
I already see 1689 that way.

@AD
I think "normal" base role with flashy addon is still normal. Some are indeed special

[deathfisaro]

@AD + Drixx
This is a mashup of 2 games, so if BP existed in both games, it's easy to make BP from game1 to be scum1-specific-BP and BP from game2 to be scum2-specific-BP.
So I'm guessing there's a higher chance the factions you two are immune to are different and won't help in identifying each other as town. Just keep them secret and make both scum factions guessing.

I think I agree with you Marquis. I don't find anything very abnormal about the concept of 2 faction specific BPs existing in a game like this.

[deathfisaro]

ChriVi said the mod confirmation was 1 direction, so while Cerberus claiming neighbour and confirming ChriVi as town was very pro-town, I wouldn't say that also makes Cerberus conftown by claim.

So what purpose does cerbscum have to create a player he'll have to kill later on?

He wants to get investigated by Marquis. Why? Either he's town or he's a miller that will return town when investigated. I think the latter is a bit of a stretch and unless backed up by scummy behaviors of Cerberus independent of neighbourhood business.

I wanted to see Jackel's ISO to answer this question but

since he has so few posts

I checked Jackel's recent posts through his profile instead of digging through the thread. And wow. Yes, shoot him.

If you wanted to ISO Jackel, why not just...yknow, use the ISO function at the bottom and do it that way?

I wasn't willing to go through who-knows-how-many-pages to find Jackel's post to get his ISO.

[deathfisaro]

Oooooooooooh
Took me 8 games to find that out

[deathfisaro]

the thing I'm finding scummy is wagoning Jackel after he claimed investigator

Nuh uh. Jackel was pushed first, he wasn't voted because the main idea was vigging him instead of lynching him. Then he claimed tracker and appealed he wanted to make it to D2.
Either nobody has ever played with Jackel, or they have but don't see Jackel's typical towngame here to vouch for his possible innocence.
I count about 6 people beside me on Jackel wagon, are you saying I'm on a wagon with every single member of both scum factions? Isn't that a bit of a stretch.

[deathfisaro]

I'm mildly entertaining the idea of a possible faction that's neither town nor scum by the way town in condition's stated in my role PM. Because ~3 scum1 ~3 scum2 ~20 town I think would likely end up in a landslide town win.
But this speculation is not affecting my reads nor votes until I have more evidence to support it.

[deathfisaro]

I don't like the Drixx wagon. Om vs Drixx and AD vs Drixx combined, I don't see myself voting Drixx today.

[deathfisaro]

@ copper

I am not super confident on jackal being town I have 3 games completed games with him 2 o which he was a lurkdonothingsack who eventually replaced out. in hilarious2 he was super excited and super invested and I said, methinks jackal likes playing scum more than town but sorting other players to push his lynch on d1 but he was vigged n1 anyways. so meh. I am not committed to moving the wagon off ofhim cos I don't really have the strong meta to support it but I am not seeing anything objectively scummy that I have not seen him do as town. so he is unsure for me. I just don't understand the push on jackal when death is practically announcing that he is scum and I find wguerts the scummiest thing to slither out of a truckstop toilet.

anyways I won't be around tonight commune stuff plus I have a gorgeous man on my sofa and I am only on here now cos he is watching attack on titans which I have already seen twice.

@ mod - not sure f I said this but mollie head is v/la until monday so participation will be low and spotty

Finally, someone who's played with Jackel has spoken up.
I ISO'd Jackel in Hilarious2, and his posts were indeed quite cheerful and full of excitement, I read to the end and found out he was scum in that game.
In this game, his posts resembles that of his Mewbie game where he was town far more than his rainbowbursting Hilarious2.
And also in every game he complained about getting mislynched D1 as town so I'll buy the appeal to emotion and be overly sympathetic. Take your ~10% chance tonight. Moving back to Vyse.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: VysePresident

[deathfisaro]

@Death - You never did answer my question in 1808 , by the way.

That wasn't a rhetorical question? What's there to answer? By the way, these are rhetorical questions, I don't NEED them answered.

We can talk about deathfisaro, I've gone back and re-read the reaction test and that part about the: interesting, how can I not be town? and I can see it as potentially scummy, plus ai really did not like how hard he went on Jackel, it was clear the objective was killing him off rather than giving him a chance to esplain himself and that looks like a pretty mafia mindset, I like your scumgame a lot more if you are scum this time.

Sorry to disappoint you. Didn't have any opportunity to improve my scumgame since the last one.
And I can't never say I'm confident you're town after a game like that. The game was playing itself and the boat was headed to a mountain but you were also rowing hardcore and town was cheering for you.
Oh and I thought how you play this game was to find scummy and kill scummy to kill scum. I wasn't going to spend the time and effort to meta Jackel, eventually I did thanks to Pirate Ika but that made me wonder how Vyse bothered to read Lucian's book when he doesn't with this thread.

[deathfisaro]

What's the motivation behind not claiming voteless when it's pretty obvious who it is at this point?

[deathfisaro]

Uh I had some serious heartburn and acid regulators not really working so I'm in so much pain to play the game at the moment. Going to the hospital in a few hours.
But at least trying to give some, if minimum, contribution to the game.

If we're lynching Jackel, might as well trigger Molla because if Jackel's a tracker we're 1 investigator shorter.
If we're lynching PV, I don't know if it's good or bad to trigger it N1.

I jumped off Jackel wagon because of reasons already stated, being close to the deadline isn't a good reason to reverse my reasons.

VOTE: PeregrineV

[deathfisaro]

@mod:

Do you only announce role name as a part of game specific feature or is it possible to get the role descriptions too?

My neighbor hasn't claimed

on purpose

because unlike you

morons

we realize that having scum know who all the neighbors are is a shitty idea.

Both scum factions shot neighbourhood cop. Is it wrong for me to think the neighbourhood contains 1 of each? Or do you think it's more likely that both scum factions mindgamed hardcore and shot Marquis on purpose to lead us (at least me) to believe that the neighbourhood contains at least one?

[deathfisaro]

1. Scum can't coordinate the kills and are probably against each other, based on what Drixx said I assume with have werewolves and a second faction, I assume mafia goven the usual factions, werewolves probably eviscerate.

The incinerated would be "Volcano mafia" from Molla's miller part then? I mean, volcano and incinerated, werewolf and eviscerated makes sense to me.

@All, anyone realize Marquis did not flip cop though?

When I saw the role name, he's a new kid on the block so he gets to know people on the block, so with a little stretch I took it as neighbourhood cop. He was town, what would he have gained by fakeclaiming and sticking to it when it would be verified D2?
I wonder if revealing role powers breaks the game and that's why it's not announced?

[deathfisaro]

@Bulbasaur: Jackel DID claim plain vanilla tracker. 1553 1569 1599. He did hint Public Tracker in 1689 but never actually admitted it.
So with all the evidence in your face, are you still saying as town investigator being in a highly likely lynch situation not honestly full claiming and eating the lynch was a pro-town good play?

@Narninian: I can see why you drove the shot to Marquis, but because Marquis got shot twice you kinda jumped to the conclusion that one faction shot Marquis and the other shot Molla. But both factions could have shot Marquis, because redirector doesn't necessarily get "failed" even if you flop?

@Chrivi & Cerberus: So entertaining the possibility of both factions targeting Marquis for the fear of each faction's member in the neighbourhood getting investigated, why does outing your neighbours hurt town? Don't you have a separate thread, because you knew Cerberus had 1-way mod conftown info on you before that talk surfaced on this thread. I'm inclined to believe there's scum in the hood and that's why Marquis had to die (although I'm not saying Marquis investigating Cerberus and you two basically becoming confmasons is BS). Finding scum in the small pool of the hood I guess would be easier?

@Titus: You say there's likely no SK and yet you still say "if multiball" when Marquis death had 2 flavours. As for whether my PR can be found on the wiki, half and half.

@Drixx: So are you strictly inferior to AD in terms of PR power? Actually I'll change the question. Why is AD's PR so OP? Cop's limited to neighbourhood, BP's limited to 1 faction, and yet AD is enjoying global protection.
Or you could be SK-immune scum. But what merits the SK to shoot Marquis?

@Ozgin:

Well, I'm glad I survived.

I've said this as scum but never as town, reasons I think is quite obvious.

VOTE: Ozgin

[deathfisaro]

Well, I'm glad I survived.

VOTE: Pirate Ika

Will reason soon.

OK I think I perhaps combined your reply and someone's comment, I was replying to the last 3 pages or so. My apologies.

If AD's not OP but regular powered, then why is Drixx's underpowered? Now that Drixx said he's werewolf specific, he's either underpowered town BP or crosskill-immune Volcano?

[deathfisaro]

Oh sorry about that quote this board is silly. Above is @Bulbasaur

[deathfisaro]

@AD: I remember you saying there must be 2 mafia factions from your role PM (and werewolf must be a separate faction). More accurate wording please? Does it say like "both mafia factions" or "2 mafia factions" or the like? Or is it more like "all mafia factions"

[deathfisaro]

Titus, are you saying like ~2 people obvcounterwagoned to save their buddy and it rolled that fast?

[deathfisaro]

Bulbasaur, if I may ask, what play of mine was stupid? Or at least, stupid in a way that it should be mentioned in the same breath as

narninian choosing to redirect a kill to a cop rather than to a treestump/BP

in an attempt to prevent the kill completely.

OK I'm actually sold on this.
There is no certainty that a protective role exists in this game (because a 13p vanilaless I played had none). And BPs weren't playing to draw in NKs. Now that AD and Drixx claimed BP, there's little merit for scums to risk shooting them. So if Narninian redirected kill from Marquis to Drixx (who claimed werewolf-BP or eviscerateproof) for example, then we have the information volcano wanted Marquis dead which leads to a very high chance of volcano existing in the neighbourhood.
Redirect could have killed the cop if neither scum actually targeted him (you know, if you expected Marquis to be protected, wouldn't scums too?)

[deathfisaro]

I'll only live until tomorrow if I'm right, that's the issue Ivy. If Lucian won't shoot him, we'll have to do it the old fashioned way: VOTE: Pirate Ika

I don't see how PI's scum flip via Lucian shot would lead us right to another scum lynch. Just lynch PI is enough to prove your point. Save Lucian shot for something else.
I'll play your game for now because trading 1 for 1 in this game setup is not worth for scum anyway.

VOTE: Pirate Ika

[deathfisaro]

If there's a town bus driver now might be a good time to at least crumb it.

[deathfisaro]

If there's a town bus driver now might be a good time to at least crumb it.

omg if you are town I have words to say in post game

So you think town bus driver should stay silent, let you get lynched, and Ozgin get all the suspicion? If you have something to say, just say it now. If you can't, that's kinda scumclaim to be honest.

@Ozgin: if I redirected PI and someone and you claimed guilty on PI, I'd have hard claimed with who the owner of Berlin Undercity Mafia role is. Town Bus Driver takes skill to be pro-town, I don't think I have such skill, I'd trade 1 to 1 with scum if I were one.

[deathfisaro]

If there's a town bus driver now might be a good time to at least crumb it.

omg if you are town I have words to say in post game

Hmm actually.
How does Berlin Undercity Mafia incinerate? Surely doesn't eviscerate as we linked that to Drixx's werewolf faction in his role PM. If werewolf is SK instead of mafia2, I don't understand Marquis' double shot death, so I was leaning heavily on "Volcano Mafia" and "Werewolf" as 2 scum factions.
Something somewhere is not right.
UNVOTE:

[deathfisaro]

Argh those lingering quotes!!! Ignore those.

[deathfisaro]

Why the fuck are we assuming bus driver over shit like framer btw

I do consider framer because that mafia doesn't seem to be flavour related to incinerating or eviscerating.
The difference is, I expect town bus driver would claim if he successfully redirected, whereas I really don't see framer claiming.

It's the lack of flavour in the result that is slightly annoying.

[deathfisaro]

I'll wait one day for a shenanigan claim since about 10 people haven't posted anything in regards to the guilty result.

[deathfisaro]

Oranje: if Lihin flips scum, you would very likely be seen as not the same faction as Lihin as you are initiating a hard push but how were you proven not in the same faction as Pika? If anyone, it was Ozgin.

As for Lihin and PV, I don't know why they are still in the game. Let's draw them out.
VOTE: Lihin

[deathfisaro]

@Lihin
Claiming without a role name when the mod only gives out the role name with a flip.
Also Your power can be confirmed but the power is so neutral confirming power doesn't confirm alignment.
You'll need to convince everyone why as town you played like how you played so far.
And how did disappearing and showing up at a nice opportune moment to claim a very neutral power and proving it to hopefully destroy your wagon lead to town victory?

[deathfisaro]

Oh Double Day Foreman is a title? I missed it being all in lower caps. Anyway, my other points unaffected.

[deathfisaro]

@fisaro
Did you read what he said about confusing the silver reference with mining? I buy it.

That explains having 15 posts in a 3000 post game with a fluffy power role?
Flying so under the radar he must have gone underground by now.

Also do you think scums have obvscum powers that are also easily confirmable? Of course easily confirmable powers given to scum will be fluffy. I wouldn't say every fluffy power is scum's but my main question is the first one.

[deathfisaro]

@Copper
Fair point.
1) Replacement happened 2000 posts ago.
2) Jackel? PV? It wouldn't be tunnelling if I'm pursuing multiple targets simulatenously since I can vote only one at a time and leaving the others unpressured is kinda meaningless in terms of pressuring with votes to draw them out of hiding?
3) Don't recall anyone at L-1 who he could have silent hammered by giving hate status.
4) Besides buying his "silver" thing, source of townreads?

[deathfisaro]

@Lihin

oh man the ability to force players to post more and possibly give them a conditional hated modifier, what an incredibly reasonable scum role

So you think forcing lurking players to post more is pro-town (or anti-scum).
Then why didn't you use it on PereV D1 to either force him to post more which helps town, or get him replaced fast which leads to the replacement posting more than PV ever has which would help town?

Now the easy answer is "oh it's only 1 shot". As town, your best use for that 1 shot was to use it on a random Commonwealth who is likely going to pick up the prod (as stated by yourself), to confirm your power to hopefully dismantle your wagon?
Would other people who receive this role PM think "oh I'm going to use this to save myself because town wincon is simply out-surviving scum and I'll be super useful as VT in a vanillaless game"? Quite the opposite.

And if you actually say it's 1 shot, I'll find you extremely scummy because

i am a town double day foreman. i can select a player and cut their prod/replace deadlines in half (reduced from 72/24 to 36/12) for the rest of the day phase effective immediately. if they get prodded any time during a day i select them, they gain hated modifier for said day. confirmation is coming in the form of the commonwealth being prodded.

This is like the most detailed role claim ever and ZERO mention of how many shots, meaning not shot limited. If it was shot limited, I'm pretty sure someone who is nice enough to do a simple math like 72 / 2 and 24 / 2 for us would have written 2 self explanatory words "one shot" in a claim that covers the entirety of the role.

With 1 shot case covered, moving on to unlimited shot (every day phase or something) case (which I find far more likely given the effectiveness of the power and missing shot limit in the claim)
What incredibly reasonable town benefit did you find in not using that power on PV D1? On anyone, really. As town, your mindset is "meh, I'll just not use my power today, other people will probably carry me while I disappear and do my own things"?


I'm very unhappy with Lihin's reaction to his wagon, as much as Jackel's.

[deathfisaro]

Actually drawing attention to the vote count was a poor move because it was not too hard to guess who had the double vote once you realize that there's a double voter.
If someone noticed before you, and no discussion came out of it, probably have been good to just let it slide.
If that person made a scene about the vote numbers not matching, it'd be his problem. But you made it your own.

[deathfisaro]

@Lihin still waiting for your answer to deathfisaro.

I actually wish his power was global, including self. Then he wouldn't be able to lurk so much. If his next post is a mere prod dodge we should lynch him for implicit scumclaim and tomorrow wagon people who didn't join the wagon

[deathfisaro]

Lihin (8) -

Cerberus v666

,

Om of the Nom

, Boonskiies,

deathfisaro

,

Oranje Crush

,

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

, Narninian,

Drixx

Jackel98 (13) - Bulbasaur Commonwealth, BBmolla, Ozgin, Magua, Lihin, copper223, Om of the Nom, Drixx, Marquis, LucianRoy, Oranje Crush, VysePresident, Cerberus v666

This is why the Lihin wagon makes me a bit unconfortable.

Because I lynched Jackel? Hmm... I thought I voted for PV and my basis for going after Lihin was not using his power on PV D1?

[deathfisaro]

With 1 scum dead, how does 5 people overlap on a wagon make you uncomfortable?
If anything people who lurk and allowing the game to play itself make me far more uncomfortable because that's exactly what I did last game as scum, intentional or not.

[deathfisaro]

Drixx's personality splitting is a little bit concerning. Do you need... counselling?

[deathfisaro]

"There is scum on this wagon" is not a good enough reason to not lynch someone in multiball. There's scum on the wagon even on a scum lynch, and until we can link a kill flacour with Berlin Undercity there is likely people from 2+ non-town faction players on any wagon regardless of the wagonee's faction. Depending on why we're wagoning, heck even 3 non-town factions could make up a scum lynch wagon.

If you think Lihin's wagon consists of both scum factions, then it's a completely different ball game and I'm all ears.

Also "but he's not around to answer" being a reason behind a wagon dismantle basically encourages lurking in a game that already is suffering from having too much.
Of course we can't force replaceouts and such, but when players themselves declare the willingness to replace out if they fall too far behind and still stick around when they're significantly far behind leads me to hardcore guess that they drew a sick scum power and would love to use it for maximum bang despite not really playing the other parts of the games.

[deathfisaro]

I still don't get why we're lynching an inactive.
It's just bad play to do so.

I think Lihin's still alive because he's inactive.
Nobody's found any slightest townread from him and the resistance to the wagon is actually Lihin lurking too hardcore to be around to interact at all.

[deathfisaro]

Shot through the heart (Lucian)
Incinerated
Eviscerated
Nuked from orbit

I'm not quite certain the last is a faction kill flavour or an ability flavour of a delayed kill (there's really nothing significantly delaying about an orbital strike?) but it makes sense for scum to utilize delayed kill in N1 as it reveals 1 fewer flip for D2.
But then if people are underground and stay underground, nuking the surface is both convenient and safe...?

I don't know what's up with people's impatience. If you two didn't claim masons I would go after you hardcore for silencing and minimizing involvement of Lihin in this game post-wagon.
Even Lihin admitted getting people to post more is pro-town, and I added if someone's lurking, getting that slot replaced has the same result. And for some reason the game's driven to prevent such, when it would have seemed unlikely that Lihin would have convinced 14 people to change their minds anyway?

[deathfisaro]

how the fuck do you silence someone with a hammer in a game that has extended twilight?

While you're so certain Lihin's going to show up in twilight to give us all the details we ever needed,

this is happening:

Anyways, lihin! Show up again and tell us what you think!

What was the risk involved in waiting for Lihin to come back and telling us what he thinks FIRST and THEN hammering?

If he does, then fine. I'll admit that apparently expecting a 4 day MIA to post exactly in twilight doesn't have a nil chance.

[deathfisaro]

Like really? How long did you want to wait?

Next time let's another day. No. Two days! Fuck it, let's just go to deadline and never lynch anyone.

Man the fuck up and lynch your scum reads instead of bitching about it when other people do.

-kuribo

Actually since he was prodded yesterday, today he'd either have to show up and post something useful (and if we accept the implicit scumclaim and hammer), or be force replaced and we'll get SOMETHING out of it.
See how Magua's sticking around twilight and doing all he can? And yet you don't want Lihin doing the same for some reason I can't possibly comprehend.
I hope you get shot tonight, that'll practically mod confirm Toon as town and hopefully Drixx will come back to normal with negative influence not around.

pedit;
@Narninian
Whoever your initial target is going to be, the redirect is best on BP, no? I mean, BPs should be playing to draw in NKs on themselves but with open claims early game they are doing the opposite and spreading the bullets around people who don't have vests. Unless your receipt tells you whether it failed because your initial target received no night action or it failed because you tried redirecting it to scum. I don't remember the details but you mentioned something in that regards.

[deathfisaro]

I still have no technical problem with Lihin lynch because he gave me zero posts to townread him combined with all the lurking and very poor use (or one of the worst possible) of his power.
It's just how people went about hammering him, I still wanted to know what Lihin was thinking, who he used his power on D1 if he did, etc.
Because IF HE FLIPS SCUM, what he said before death could have led us right to another.
I stress this point because Pika death resulted in an obvious double scum kill D2, clearly Lihin lynch pre-comeback must have led to another D3. /sarcasm

[deathfisaro]

@Copper
Pika, who flipped Berlin Undercity Mafia, scumread me so I must be Volcano Mafia. That's some mysterious detective skill you have. If you called me Pika's partner that would have been more convincing.

[deathfisaro]

@Copper
Oh I'm sorry I didn't expect multiple experienced players to miss such basic idea of why we wait before a hammer.
And if you want to frame me, you can come up with a frame regardless of whether I stay on the wagon or jump off, whether I display concern or not.

Now, then, answer me. You repeatedly posted that you were waiting for Lihin's answer to my questions. Where were you when the rest of town was clamouring for a hammer, when you were still waiting for Lihin's answers. Forget about the people you suspect, but to your fellow towns it didn't cross your mind that they're being played and you should warn them? By simple math, the wagon is still 50%+ town regardless of how scums vote, especially more so since the town powers are not OP to justify shifting balance in scum favour in terms of headcount.
I'm not really blaming you, I just find it interesting you're calling me black.

[deathfisaro]

wgeurts, when you don't pay attention to the game it really detracts from any credibiility you may have.

Also Brantz is pretty fucking town straight from a role perspective. The role is too powerful for scum.

I disagree.
13 player game scum wincon = let ~7+ town die before ~3 of you get wiped out.
13+13 player multiball game scum wincon = let ~20+ players die before ~3 of you get wiped out.

The easy (very hopeful) scenario is Ozgin keep busting scums to survive the nights and simply checking BRantz once his power runs out. I don't see how staying safe and letting someone else die is a very powerful pro-town power?

pedit;
@Copper
I didn't know they wanted my guts D1. I think it's fine if they did and I died, if Mollie looked suspicious after my townflip I could have been traded 1 for 1, if TPTG looked suspicious I could have been traded for a, with the information so far if truthful, conftown. And the opportunity to inspect the motive behind all the other people on that wagon.

And if you did tell players to hold off and TPTG and Toon all got bonered and hammered it anyway, that tells you how they REALLY perceive you despite saying they like and trust you publicly in the thread.

[deathfisaro]

if Vyse is town probably scum but since I am still leaning scum on Vyse

What

[deathfisaro]

PV is still in this game?
Well his last post says Pika soft defended vonflare therefore they're of the same faction. Is 5 vote count a good time to publicly defend your buddy despite potentially gaining associative clues later on? At 1/3 of the lynch requirement, it's plausible.
I don't know how close night is and I don't know if I want to bother diving in. I think PV should do the work for us and present all the evidence nicely quoted or referenced into a one coherent post. I think he should have found some more evidences between posts ~1200 and ~3600.

pedit;
But in multiball how does it work like that? Like even if both scumteams wanted to cooperate and kill a few town before they start killing each other, they don't know who's town and who's the other faction so one wagon winning with that much gap between the two isn't necessarily a sign of scum's doing. Or you think they have a more primitive mindset like "hey it's not one of us, let's just lynch him and get D1 over with"?

[deathfisaro]

copper223

-

Town Facebooker

- Eviscerated night two.

VysePresident

-

Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ???

- Incinerated night two.

BRantz has returned to the game.

Initial thought: lol that's hilarious
Second thought: wait, what's up with three question marks

[deathfisaro]

Ohhhhh I thought it was a bastard thing like "Vanilla Townie???"
Yeah I've never seen a concealed flip. I've read about death miller on the wiki but this is new.

[deathfisaro]

So, who thinks both of these kills were targets from each mafia faction?
At first glance, I'd say BU faction targeted Vyse, and Tropical faction targeted copper, for obviousness implied.
Also, I think it's safe to rule out an SK at this point.
Now that there are two flips, each from the opposite faction, it should be way easier to look back and determine who was doing what, and why.

This is groundbreaking.
I would have never made the connection "Volcano eviscerates" and "Berlin incinerates"

When Narninian comes back it'll be clear if there's a scum bus driver (if so, probably Berlin?) or it was just a successful kill redirect.

[deathfisaro]

Then why was copper shot?

I haven't finished reading the previous day thread, so if he claimed i haven't gotten there yet. Other than that, yeah, Ozgin getting shot would make sense, but not copper.

There's also the fact that your slot is by far the strongest in terms of day play. A conftown Toon Fighter is worth relatively little, a conftown kuribo is worth a metric shitton.

Copper claimed investigative. He actually claimed 1 shot (IIRC) modified tracker, that is facebooker. He tracks the target's action history since N1 to current.
Ozgin claimed he would gain one night BP if his role inspection target was scum and died the following day.

pedit; wow double ninja'd.

[deathfisaro]

So, who thinks both of these kills were targets from each mafia faction?
At first glance, I'd say BU faction targeted Vyse, and Tropical faction targeted copper, for obviousness implied.
Also, I think it's safe to rule out an SK at this point.
Now that there are two flips, each from the opposite faction, it should be way easier to look back and determine who was doing what, and why.

This is groundbreaking.
I would have never made the connection "Volcano eviscerates" and "Berlin incinerates"

When Narninian comes back it'll be clear if there's a scum bus driver (if so, probably Berlin?) or it was just a successful kill redirect.

I have been saying that indirectly for awhile.

What about:
Volcano eviscerates, Berlin nukes from orbit, and werewolf (SK at this point since the former two had mafia tag at the end) eviscerates?
Because the lack of existence of werewolves makes Drixx vanilla in a vanillaless game. Unless Drixx fakeclaimed.

[deathfisaro]

I was going to say Titus and TPTG get a room! But it ended rather quickly by TPTG's knockout punch.

[deathfisaro]

Lucian, it's also possible that what we've seen is one night-killing mafia faction and an SK kill on each night, and that the end of day kill yesterday was a day-killing mafia faction's kill. I don't think we have enough information to know for sure one way or the other.

I can see why you would lean this way given what you claimed. Interesting how you think Berlin is day-killing mafia, instead of delayed kill mafia. Nobody died D1 by getting nuked from orbit.
And Ozgin said he'll gain BP the night his guilty target dies. Day killing mafia had all the reasons to submit Ozgin as the target before night falls. If someone dies at the end of today by getting nuked from orbit, that's simply their night action carried out later.

As much as I enjoy talking about this, I realized it's not getting anywhere until Ozgin and Narninian show up.

pedit:
I'd guess 1,4,3,2 in order of likelihood.

pedit2:
If something's blue, it's not green so stop hedging around and commit to a colour.
He claimed exactly that. ISO gogo.

[deathfisaro]

Okay was just checking activity overview and I have no idea why PV still bothers hanging onto this game, after saying he'll replace out if he falls too far behind, he's done 2 V/LAs and I see no guarantee he'll contribute anything substantial after the V/LA ends anyway.
I'm sorry if I'm picking on one person but there are 178 POSTS in the game per 1 LINE from PV. Is he like permanently post restricted by his role or something? If not, this is quite rude.

[deathfisaro]

Oh yeah I just wanted to know the consensus on whether we're triggering Molla's power or not. If we are, I'll hard commit to voting.

[deathfisaro]

19 players and 18 votes in play, so it looks like Titus you are voteless today as you claimed, but do you wanna still get involved and commit that 0 count vote anyway?

[deathfisaro]

deathfisaro, you look so bad right now. Semi confidant, as a scum who feels like, without any votes on, can say as he pleases. Well, no. Your early day plays were very bad, and you deserve some fucking flake for that. You just keep making random comments about the kills, never committing to anything, no real scum reads, voted Lihin and then excused yourself when he died without answers. If you wanted him to answer, why didn't you unvote? Excusing yourself like that is fucking awful play. Commit to your reads, stop posting flavor bullshit, and just die, scum.

I'm terribly sorry for not being a seeing-an-obvious-future-that-some-newb-will-derphammer psychic. I didn't know that was a requirement for playing mafia. Funny because if you could see the future and I'd complain about the derphammer you shouldn't have derphammered. Hmm... Interesting.

meh. I've done

worse

hammers.

unvote, vote: Lihin

Self admitted bad hammer and I'm to blame because I didn't unvote. Great reasoning dude. 10/10.

[deathfisaro]

Oh no every single player that I voted more than once had died and flipped scum, scumhunting must be my lowest priority because I should be doing absolutely nothing instead!

Let me continue that trend, but time is short so I must make haste this way.
VOTE: Bulbasaur Commonwealth
VOTE: Bulbasaur Commonwealth

[deathfisaro]

Yeah no you still look bad. Don't misrepresent me. I didn't say any of the things you are implying. A random vote on Bulbasaur is not going to convince. In fact, I will join my mason buddy and vote you

VOTE: deathfisaro

That doesn't mean OranjeScum is innocent. It just means that we have too much scum and too few lynches. People who aren't voting, please tell me what do you find townie about either of these scum bastards, and vote one of them or claim scum yourselves. Kthx

Not a random vote. I have reasons that I'm willing to divulge if we're certainly triggering Molla's nightskip.
It feels a bit premature but D4 is my deadline anyway.

[deathfisaro]

I'm wondering whether I should just claim now then drive a wagon or drive a wagon first and then claim at twilight. I'm leaning on the latter and it is Oranje wagon because I want to check whether Pika's claim of roleblocking Oranje D1 is truthful (although quite silly if you assume a typical night actions' resolution order) or is a means of distancing.

My role is not confirmable by anything other than my flip, the information I'm going to share is not related to the popular wagons of today but after the Oranje flip I'll find out if I'll be able to convince y'all to lynch BC.
As I said, I become VT at the beginning of D4 and if we don't nightskip I'll be eviscerated tonight so today's not a bad day to claim regardless.

So,
VOTE: Oranje Crush

[deathfisaro]

^

[deathfisaro]

I'm a Town Skeptical Cop. If no mafia flips before Day 4, I lose my inspection. Which is why the first quote I put, in regarding to BBmolla's claim is why I believed his role is actually in the game. As it fit well with my skeptical. Also, I didn't use my ability Night 1...due to my inactivity...which I stated at the beginning of Day 2.

During Day 2, I also stated I can't read Copper...so he was my target, and I got the result that he was..."not mafia".

I don't like this role claim, I have 2 reasons.

Here's part one:
A skeptical cop losing power on D4 is meaningless because if no scum flipped till town basically lost. I'll do the math for you.
26 players. 3 scum1, 3 scum2, 1 SK, 19 town
3 lynches D1~D3
6 NKs N1~N3
2 delayed NKs N1 & N2 (that happen at the end of D2 & D3)
1 vengilante shot
= 12 deaths and no scum flip = 12 town deaths or 11 town and 1 SK death
You're losing cop power at 7~8 town vs 6~7 non-town situation (with at least 2~3 shots each night). I think you should gain an extra investigation each night if no scums flipped till D4.

[deathfisaro]

Part two is my claim.
Boonskiies claimed almost a carbon copy of my role, except it's for mafia instead of SK.
But with the amount of breadcrumbing I did, anyone with any sort of common sense can safely claim Town Skeptical Cop without the fear of being counterclaimed.
(The number of investigatives in this game is already balance crushingly high to justify existence of such role, if they didn't roflclaim early game and lie about their claim to get shot and lynched)

1) I said I'm going to very likely become VT on D4 <- crumbing skeptic
2) I said I'll be eviscerated tonight if we don't nightskip <- crumbing SK cop
We've seen flips from both factions: "Berlin Undercity Mafia" and "Tropical Voncano Lair Mafia", and yet I've pinpointed the kill flavour coming my way tonight. Meaning my role PM has clues that allow me to link 3 kill flavours to 3 non-town factions.
I'm sure most of you have figured out my role already. Making it official though:

My role title

is

"Town Skeptical Paranormal Investigator"

and my 2 abilities are

Seer

and

Skeptic

.
Seer is simply a werewolf cop, and skeptic I've crumbed like 3~4 times already it should be pretty obvious, if no werewolf flips before D4 I lose my seer ability.
My role PM had zero clues as to whether said werewolf could be mafia or SK.
With the kill flavours we saw at the beginning of D2 led me to belive I was a faction specific cop, that one scum faction was some sort incinerating team like Volcano mafia (BBMolla's miller claim led me to think this way) and the other (that I can investigate) was a group of werewolves.
Remember me backing out of Pika wagon after Ozgin claim saying the faction name (Berlin Undercity Mafia) didn't seem right?
As of beginning of today (D3), after seeing both mafia faction flips and finding out that they're all human I now know that I'm an SK cop but I guess it's a bit too late.
(Although Vyse was a concealed flip, I didn't think I'd link Volcano & eviscerate together and link incinerate kill flavour to something else.)

So here are my thoughts and facts.

BRantz

, having removed himself from the game every day throughout the night, couldn't have performed the eviscerations thus

not werewolf

.
He was under the "dead" pile when he removed himself. 3-shot removal combined with being able to perform NKs is broken, I'm guaranteed VT if BRantz was werewolf. I'll hate the mod for it if this was the case.

My D2 target

was

vonflare

and the result I got was that

"vonflare is not a werewolf."

So vonflare is not a werewolf, save for a successful bus driving.
Boonskiies said his result said copper was "not mafia", but what I expect is "copper is not a mafia." Maybe it's a Boonskiies thing to put words between quotations marks but aren't really quotes.
Also, if I've known that werewolf is SK I'd have chosen someone else over vonflare TBH.

My D1 target

was

Bulbasaur Commonwealth

and he was

investigation proof

.
Why in the world would town be cop proof? Either it's BC's power or their teammate has a power where s/he can choose a person to be investigation proof every night or something.
The only scenario where I might possibly reconsider BC is that Pika roleblocked me and lied about roleblocking Oranje as a means of distancing, so Oranje's Berlin Undercity Mafia flip could influence this.
In any other cases, I'm hard committed to BC (funny how I'm SK cop and I'm pursuing scum in exhcange for losing my power),

Boonskiies, since scums have already flipped, is not losing power and is forever cop so that claim was pretty bad IMO.
If we aren't nightskipping, I have 1 more shot at investigating SK and that's finding 1 correct target in a pool of 15 people (although I'd say maybe half dozen is an actual suspect pool) but I might randomly die before D4. Possibly the delayed NK from N2 that's going to happen at the end of today could be me, and if I claim today SK will NK me anyway.
So I asked if we're surely nightskipping, in that case I don't have any investigation left, and if an SK flips then I'm still VT anyway. (With the number of kill flavours so far, 2 scum 1 SK faction is almost certain and I have no reason to strongly believe this SK faction has more than 1 member).
And I'd rather publish all the information I got than die holding them in my chest.

With the number of people who roflclaim investigatives, I don't know why I bothered intentionally playing scummy to put myself in the middle of the road to avoid NKs (especially more so since BPs claimed and failed to attract NKs to themselves).

I think it's better to let Boonskiies live but share his night action target and result every day, with a claim like that I don't suppose he'll live very long.
My top scumspect is BC, but I'm fine with seeing Oranje flip before that.

Bolded a few words for tl;dr

[deathfisaro]

Deathfisaro: You put "Vonflare is not a werewolf" in quotes. You did not put investigation proof in quotes. Is that or is that not the result you received, verbatim or paraphrased to have identical meaning, or is that an inference you made based on the result?

About vonflare:
Not "Vonflare is not a werewolf", but "vonflare is not a werewolf."
With a dot at the end together is the exact precise absolutely accurate investigation result letter by letter (including capitalization), symbol by symbol (without the quotes obviously). Why would I put things in quotes if I'm not referring to expressions worded exactly as how I wrote them? If I'm paraphrasing I most likely put things in single quotes.

About BC:

Why in the world would town be cop proof? Either it's BC's power or their teammate has a power where s/he can choose a person to be investigation proof every night or something.

The former, actually. Although I call bullshit on us being "cop proof". That's just exaggerating your result (or lack thereof). And there are town roles that can prevent cop results.

Why did you pick vonflare? And you're a daycop, then?

Explained by himself. If you townread BC, believe him and that he claims a very pro-town role that hinders town investigations.
I, on the other hand, need evidence to suggest cop proof town is as common as the other base roles which are BPs, trackers, cops, roleblockers, masons, vig/vengeful, commuter, whatever else I missed. Although modified, these base roles are extremely common that even I have exposure to almost all of them so far (first time playing in a game with masons, and pre-set neighbourhood although I've played in a game with neighbourizer before).
I can't even google it to see how common it is because I don't know what it's called.

[deathfisaro]

Continuation of above (same quote) but to a different audience.

@BC
I messed up day and night acronyms in my target choices in my previous post, those should be N1 and N2.
And I picked vonflare because up until last night I thought I was a faction specific cop, not an SK cop. At the beginning of D2, we saw the new kid on the block get both incinerated and eviscerated. I almost immediately linked incinerate with volcano mafia (scum1, hinted by Molla miller claim) and eviscerate with werewolf (scum2, hinted by my role PM). Seeing a delayed NK at the end of D2 didn't change my view of the factions, I thought the nuking from orbit was SK with some other random flavour.

If you don't believe it, just lynch me. Boonskiies still gets to investigate if his claim is true since we've seen scum flips (although I already stated why I don't really buy his claim), I on the other hand become VT regardless of whether we successfully lynch a werewolf today or not. (Unless you have some extremely convincing facts to suggest werewolf SK faction made up of 2+ people)
So if you don't believe 2 claims equally, best worst case scenario is me. And that's fine. I'll just join a couple smaller games where I might draw scum or SK or whatever other fun thing that's not VT.

[deathfisaro]

@Boonskiies
Don't flip out, I never said we should lynch you, but I said your claim is still fishy.
You don't have to make up a fake role yourself because in a vanilaless game I played before, every single scum player was entitled a fake role PR created by mod when requested.
Such fake roles will be both safe (you're not claiming something that might actually already exist and get counterclaimed and die) and is in line with design concept of flipped roles so far. Like how nobody bought Jackel's pedantic tracker claim because it was out of everyone else's role design concepts which are modifications of very common roles. Another reason I don't buy BC's 'oh I'm town, I'm just immune to cops' because that doesn't line up with everything else.

Since you already claimed, just produce a target and result at every daybreak, what's so hard about that?

[deathfisaro]

Boon, why would you randomly claim cop for nothing? You're just drawing NKs onto yourself. You were in no danger of lynch, your skeptic's already taken care of, you have no success result, I have no idea why you'd claim like that.

Also, so much hypocrisy in Lucian complaining about people writing books

[deathfisaro]

@4013, I don't believe you Death because you aren't allowed to quote the mod.

Also, where's the push on Bulba if you found out he was investigation immune. Isn't that something like miller that needs to be claimed early to be believable?

I didn't quote the role pm, as in using the quote feature. That'd be against site rules even if you fake it. But if people can't quote mod pms like type out what it says, any cop guilty (or any PR claim with a role name) is modkillable which is absurd.
But if typing out letters from a pm is indeed what it's meant by

2. You may not quote your role PM, you may not quote any other PMs from me, and you may not quote the time at which I sent you any PM.

then I guess I'm getting modkilled and you'll see how genuine everything I said so far is. If that's the case, I apologize for ending the day prematurely. Might want to control Molla wagon size to trigger the nightskip then.
The vote count is up but I'm not modkilled yet so I'm not sure whose understanding of the rule is right and whether I'll be sacked for claiming the way I did.

The point about investigation proof should have been claimed prior to N1 I definitely agree on, since what BBMolla did is exactly the same line of play, and is very pro-town if you're actually town.
Saying it as a response to someone who's hard committed because of the investigation result would definitely look like a poor excuse in any context.

You find out someone's holding back investigation immune, I'd expect a push of somekind from you d2 death. Yet, you didn't push shit.

With no certainty of existence of protective roles and with Narninian's kill redirect logic I didn't expect to survive N2 if I were to open claim D2. I think I have played middle of the road sufficiently enough to be not a likely candidate for NK N2 (and the fact that I'm alive right now is proof that I have played how I should have played?), and I was not going to throw away almost guaranteed safe N2 investigation in exchange for a push.
Also investigation proof doesn't necessarily guarantee werewolf, painting a large bullseye on my back from the werewolf faction when BC could be any of the 2~3 non-town factions didn't seem like a worthy tradeoff by my standards. I thought I had a really good chance of finding scum if I were faction specific cop. It just sucks the day I found out I'm a SK cop is the day before my skeptic deadline.

[deathfisaro]

Lol I must be scum for targeting an unconventional JK. Perfect argument, I can't win against that, let's get the wagon going everyone, whoever's not voting is scum.
VOTE: deathfisaro

I miss copper, who has the brain to reason. Drixx used to be such too, but not in this game. I wonder why *hint hint*

[deathfisaro]

That's a really bad play deathfisaro. Town should never self vote as it screws up any analysis of the wagon afterward.

Also, you got counterclaimed and the situation is an either/or. Either you are lying or the BC hydra is lying. If you were town, you should be thrilled to trade 1-for-1 to get scum yeah?

1) It's not a counterclaim, BC's claim has nothing to do with my role, my night action targets history, and the results.
It just explains by my night action target why I saw him as investigation proof and he IS investigation proof, so what's wrong regarding the claims? BC's argument that I was trying an easy lynch on him is a far better argument and I indeed was trying to get an easy lynch on him because I genuinely believe he's scum.

2) I would be lying if I said I have a guilty on BC, but I came out saying he was cop proof. If I had a guilty I would have nobrainer claimed D2 easy.
If BC was lying, I would have gotten a result positive or negative. So why are you saying either of us has to be lying?

3) As for the last sentence, yeah that's why I'll pursue him even with my own death. Don't tell me self-voting will ruin your VCA when it requires 9 other people to achieve the lynch. 9 too few for you?
Self-voting is no different from Titus' role existing in this game. Titus will throw the VCA off by one every day, one day by guaranteed not being on any wagon (or having no effect), and another day preventing one person to be on a wagon if it's the lynch wagon because the vote counts for two.
Do you have a serious problem with mods decision to put odd/even votecount flipper in the game?


Also, since no town has suffered any negative effect from non-town powers I see no reason for town to have a reflexive JK. I mean, what you gonna roleblock? Reflex roleblock Pika's roleblock? Given the number of investigatives, it's far pro-scum and at best anti-town. And it also doubles as permanent everything BP which is AD and Drixx's roles combined into one and plus more. Does town need all of mafia BP + SK BP + OP BP? Surely the last one is too OP to justify other roles.

[deathfisaro]

It just boggled my mind I had to come back.
BPs are shot limited, probably 1 shot. So when it comes to worst, scums just have to shoot them twice over two nights, or let them live but kill everyone else for the win.
With 1 scum from each faction gone, you need 2 or fewer town alive for scum endgame. How are they going to kill 2 NK resistant and 1 NK proof and win? If all three are town, this game was broken from the design and we all wasted our time by actually playing it.

Also, looking at cerb's last post not everyone's made up their mind as to which kill flavour belong to which faction (as in scum or SK). I think my role suggests a clear setup, and I don't know why Drixx hasn't made up his mind yet because he supposedly has the same amount of info to work with. Heart not in the game?

[deathfisaro]

Lol I must be scum for targeting an unconventional JK. Perfect argument, I can't win against that, let's get the wagon going everyone, whoever's not voting is scum.

I miss copper, who has the brain to reason. Drixx used to be such too, but not in this game. I wonder why *hint hint*

You're not scum for targeting us (to be frank, considering who ELSE is in this hydra, investigating us N1 was a GOOD idea...or would be if not for the fact there were honestly far better people to check N1 because we weren't strong D1; N2 would've been better). You're scum because you were pushing the false narrative that we were somehow "investigation proof" when in fact you just got no result because of our role. We would've bought that you were being a little overeager on this, but when you didn't come back and change your tune from "investigation proof" to "no result" we knew you were just bullshitting.

So you're saying with scum roleblocker dead and with everyone suggesting Pika's roleblock on Oranje was legit, I should still be very suspicious of myself being roleblocked N1 by some mysterious other roleblocker, namely reflexive roleblocker when the game started off as BBMolla paving the way for town investigatives by extremely early miller claim while you sat through 4000 posts to now say 'oh by the way, town investigatives should target me throughout the entirety of the game'.

Also, I DID account for investigation proof, and you ARE investigation proof. Tell me, can reflexive roleblocker be investigated? No. What does investigation proof mean? You can't be investigated. Oh wait, you can't be investigated but you're not a role that can't be investigated because you return no result! Genius, best logic ever.

You wouldn't claim after one result? Why would I investigate you two days in a row and ask you for a claim after wasting all my investigations and asking to be eviscerated N3? What good does that do?

The only outcome after today is VT or wolf dinner so I don't really care what happens.

[deathfisaro]

I'm so bad at this game I can't even get people to lynch me.

You either think I'm a town SK cop or I'm something else fakeclaiming, take a stand and vote. It's not your life on the line, what are you afraid of?

'I manually roleblocked you by sending in a night action targeting you specifically so your claim of me being investigation proof is BS and you're scum' is something I would believe and I'd admit in that case you might be town.
'I'm a reflexive roleblocker therefore I'm not investigation proof thus your claim of me being investigation proof is scummy' is laughable.

@BC
If you're not investigation proof, tell us a way of House (who replaced Ozgin, who claimed rolecop and outed a Belin Undercity Mafia) and Boonskiies (who claimed mafia cop regardless of the claim's quality) can investigate you. Otherwise you're just playing with semantics to save your scum life.

[deathfisaro]

Titus, Boon is a cop and I'm a seer. Since both scum factions flipped human, I must be an SK cop. "SK cop" would be far more accurate than "faction specific cop." Skeptic part you got right =P

My role title

is

"Town Skeptical Paranormal Investigator"

and my 2 abilities are

Seer

and

Skeptic

.

I thought you might need a reminder of my role title so nobody does 'WTF he didn't flip SK cop' BS. (Somebody do an inside joke after my flip please, since I can't bah )

And gee, I apologize for not reading 24 people correctly in the first 2 days and landing on a lone SK within 2 nights. Given how many died and when, I had ~9.2% chance of finding a werewolf before D3 and realizing my identity as a SK cop instead of a faction specific mafia cop definitely helped my chances. I'm terribad.

Also the moment we mod-confirm the existence of SK, which would probably come as a flip of said SK or a successful role cop on the SK, I become VT.
So saying my SK cop is BS because no SK died so far is counterintuitive.

Oh and to help VCA let's get one more scum (hopefully) on the wagon
UNVOTE:

[deathfisaro]

Ozgin(House)? Duh

[deathfisaro]

Also the moment we mod-

confirm the existence of SK

, which would probably come as a flip of said SK or

a successful role cop on the SK

, I become VT.

Nah House is

not a rolecop. Not even close

.

House would only

confirm Werewolves are in the game.

So you know exactly what I wanted to say. What was the point?

[deathfisaro]

Well then I misremember his role. Whatever the correct role name is, you know what I mean.

[deathfisaro]

Nah House is not a rolecop. Not even close.

House would only confirm Werewolves are in the game.

Why do you need to identify the role of a werewolf when the alignment is confirmed?

[deathfisaro]

But, on the surface, Boon's claim feels town, and Death's seems to be a mirror of it.

Actually it's the opposite because I crumbed all my abilities pretty obviously and THEN Boon for some reason roflclaimed with a non-conflicting version of my mirror.

[deathfisaro]

If Death flips co-aligned with mollie, this pretty strongly confirms that mollie actually targeted me N1.

Double disappointment incoming. Enjoy.

[deathfisaro]

I think you guys need to herd the kittens or you'll miss out on the night skip.
VOTE: BBMolla

[deathfisaro]

Oh I didn't realize people still had questions for me since they were already so committed on my wagon.
Well this is my very first time getting any sort of investigative on this site I actually didn't realize the N1 result PM meant I got reflexive roleblocked, I thought it just meant BC was not a werewolf. Therefore zero push on BC D2.
After N2, which is today, After I got the vonflare result I figured out my N1 action failed, and with Pika dead I concluded BC was investigation proof, which is extremely scum aligned power to exist in any game, and he confirmed he is.

And I think reflexive roleblocker is easily a scum role. And I'd go even further and say BC is Tropical Volcano mafia unless you believe active roleblocker and passive roleblocker in the same scum faction isn't OP.

[deathfisaro]

Why would you say this when there is literally zero downside to a Cerb vig shot?

Partially because I'm not sold about Cerb being not-town enough to be shot yet.

Then why are you, having read the last 170 pages, still in 'my faction can shoot someone' mindset? Ah, I think I know the answer, no need to reply.

[deathfisaro]

Titus, I said I couldn't figure out if N1 BC investigation result meant I got roleblocked or BC was not a werewolf.

[deathfisaro]

Um, so how do people know what investigation result looks like until they actually get one?
In one of my scum games I wanted to fake claim tracker, but having never seen a tracker result and I had no idea.
On the other hand, I'm 100% confident about what it looks like down to the capitalization and punctuation of the result PM.

In fact, why don't we ask Boonskiies if his result PM from N2 looks EXACTLY like "copper223 is not a mafia." Lower case 'c' and full stop after the word mafia. It's pretty convenient to have a clone-ish role now I think about it.

[deathfisaro]

Did you or did you not get "no result" when you checked me?

Wait, you still haven't figured this out? Obviously I did, what kind of gamebreakingly OP Seer gets a result like 'you were in jail last night because you targetted a reflexive JK haha too bad'

[deathfisaro]

Death stop dodging.

Did the mod PM you N1?

Of course the mod PMed me, how else do I get a result? Am I a public Seer? (although that would be convenient)

[deathfisaro]

That's wrong as fuck

If an investigative role is roleblocked they should get "No Result."

That's similar to what I got. Titus fact manipulation is too stronk. Any investigative getting returned 'you were roleblocked' is absurd in virtually any setup.

Scum team: Bulba/Cerb/Titus

Well since Pika is in one and Vyse in the other, this is a stretch although I wouldn't be surprised to find BC flip Volcano along with Titus.

[deathfisaro]

In fact, why don't we ask Boonskiies if his result PM from N2 looks EXACTLY like "copper223 is not a mafia." Lower case 'c' and full stop after the word mafia. It's pretty convenient to have a clone-ish role now I think about it.

That's fucking stupid and we're not doing it.

Also written as 'oh shit Boonskiies is gonna confirm deathfisaro as SK cop and I'm gonna get busted'

[deathfisaro]

That is much more valuable than chasing a faction that may or may not exist.

In the last 4500 posts at no point did I say BC was a werewolf, or suggested I have any idea who that werewolf SK might be.
With my claim I said I'm willing to give up my power of "chasing a faction that may or may not exist" for BC's lynch.
On D3 all you did was to twist my words slightly to misguide other players.

[deathfisaro]

We know 5-6 investigatives is likely too many.

Precisely why one scum faction has an active roleblocker and the other a reflexive jailkeeper

[deathfisaro]

That is much more valuable than chasing a faction that may or may not exist.

In the last 4500 posts at no point did I say BC was a werewolf, or suggested I have any idea who that werewolf SK might be.
With my claim I said I'm willing to give up my power of "chasing a faction that may or may not exist" for BC's lynch.
On D3 all you did was to twist my words slightly to misguide other players.

No I didn't.

All I've said is that your play is implausible for checking Bulba N1.

There's zero proof of werewolves existing. None.

So yes, keeping you alive to chase what is at best a serial killer role is a waste.

Living through D3 to find the werewolf is not what I wanted from all of you. What I wanted was lynching the scum I found in the process of finding the SK although BC may not be a werewolf.
Yes, zero proof of werewolves because if as soon as it's mod confirmed via a flip the SK faction likely has no one alive left in it anyway.
'No SK has died in this game, so there is no SK in this game and Death's role is fake' perfectly explains 3 night kill flavours and makes Drixx vanilla.
Should Drixx and I both die because we have a business with werewolves just because SK hasn't died? That makes zero sense.

[deathfisaro]

I think this whole "hat buddy" thing is for Titus to blend into town and be active in driving mislynches.
TPTG claimed mason and Lucian shot a Berlin Underground Mafia. Two very townie people.
Oh wait, House needed to be recruited because Ozgin's investigation on Pika led to Lucian shooting so House/Ozgin is also a very townie slot.
3 very townie people, organize a gang with Titus in it (for some reason, since the amount of townwork he did in comparison to the other 3 is pretty much nil).

[deathfisaro]

@Death,

You're claiming that the only other player with werewolf knowledge is Drixx is not persuasive to me. Dan is bulletproof to something else, which is more likely to exist in the game.

AD already said he's BP to both mafia factions, what do you mean by "something else"?
Also there is another who has certain knowledge of the werewolf SK faction, that is the member of that said faction, who are not going to out themselves as SK ever, so why does your lack of understanding of kill flavours and faction assignments mean my claim is fake?

[deathfisaro]

Titus is EXTREMELY selective in which part of my post to reply to. You're trying to go on tangents all the time, misrepresent what I said, too manipulative to be a genuine town play.

[deathfisaro]

Also written as 'oh shit Boonskiies is gonna confirm deathfisaro as SK cop and I'm gonna get busted'

Now you're just confbiasing everything I'm doing.

No. I'm stating there's no proof of wolves and the other person you're claiming is immune to the wolf kill is pretty much confscum so yeah...

Here are the facts:
1) Boonskiies claimed Cop
2) I claimed SK Cop
3) I have explicitly stated I know cop investigation results down to a dot
4) Boonskiies has investigated copper therefore has his cop investigation results
5) He can confirm that I'm a SK Cop
6) This should end the debate whether a Seer is a SK Cop
7) Or you guys can convince the world that I am something else, but know exactly how cop results are formatted. Or would gambit explicitly with such minute detail that wouldn't otherwise be known and has extremely low chance of success.

Since Titus has change stance from 'Death is scum' to 'werewolf faction doesn't exist' let's start by having Boon come in and re-read his PM and I'm a werewolf investigator (if you don't know what that is, it's called seer).
Titus is very wishy washy about how to get others to push me. You have to commit to one story, you're actually sucking at just sitting by and narrating to let town drive a mislynch.

[deathfisaro]

I actually wish today was D4, then we would have witnessed someone get nuked from orbit at the end of D3, Berlin Undercity's delayed NK flavour.
I wonder what happens if that target eats the day lynch. Is the person lynched, then the corpse nuked?

[deathfisaro]

2) I claimed SK Cop

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAH

Are you claiming SK cop or Werewolf cop

I actually wish today was D4, then we would have witnessed someone get nuked from orbit at the end of D3, Berlin Undercity's delayed NK flavour.
I wonder what happens if that target eats the day lynch. Is the person lynched, then the corpse nuked?

So, any reasons why you know that, or should we start signing your death warrant?

-Ivy

I already explained all this in my claim.

My role title

is

"Town Skeptical Paranormal Investigator"

and my 2 abilities are

Seer

and

Skeptic

.

I'm a Seer so I'm a werewolf cop when it comes to flavours. When it comes to the function or identity of the werewolf, it's SK because

2. Pirate Ika - Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker - Shot through the heart day two.
20. VysePresident - Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ??? - Incinerated night two.

We've seen flips from both mafia and they're both human. So werewolf has to be SK.
Now matching game.

Berlin Undercity
Tropical Volcano Lair
Werewolf

Nuked from orbit
Incinerated
Eviscerated

This is all in 3997 already, nothing new happened between then and now. We've only witnessed 3 repeatable kill flavours, so Titus suggesting we're missing a kill flavour completely on D3 for a 4th non-town faction doesn't make much sense. You're not gonna argue Lucian's the SK, are you?

[deathfisaro]

Sorry second post.

I. This game will use no factions other than what is considered normal (town, mafia, werewolf and serial killer).

So mistaking SK for Werewolves is unlikely given the first post.

Touche. I had actually forgotten about that. Death?

Well since this is more collective post over quoting other posts,
ARE YOU SUGGESTING MOD GAVE AWAY THE SETUP IN A CLOSED GAME IN POST #FREAKING ONE?
Should he have said

I. This game will use no factions other than what is considered normal -town, mafia, and werewolf (serial killer)-.

This is the weiredest push I've ever seen. This is beyond setup spec, do you really need to break the barrier between open and close games to push me? That's how innocent I am, thank you.

[deathfisaro]

Okay maybe it might seem to early to conclude the setup but if you're in this slot and see the role pm then me specing this setup is way more likely than people whose role PMs don't indicate an existence of a specific faction.

Order within block is random.

Reads

Town:

TPTG - mason, while this is not my favourite player that doesn't affect alignment.
Toon - mason, similar to above.
ChriVi - (almost) mod confirmed town
Lucian - scum has no reason to claim vengilante early (since if you die, you can just shoot anyway) and killing any non-town player (even if different scum faction) lowers scum win rate. No reason to gain townread in exchange for a faction loss.
House - well it was Ozgin when it happened but similar to Lucian. Non-town factions killing each other this early game is factional suicide.
AD - no reason to suspect scum

Townlean:

BBmolla - power pretty townie, along with the early claim and miller claim.
Boonskiies - role too strange, D4 skeptic cop is either intentionally designed to throw people off, as skeptic is only an illusion of a drawback for a mafia cop. If he was like a hotspot skeptic investigator that can only investigate Volcano mafia, for example, I'd have bought it. So can't commit to strong town pool.

Null:

Narninian - very strange kill redirect choice.
Cerb - outing self as part of a neighbourhood was a townie move if Marquis didn't die immediately after. Confirming ChriVi as town is not necessarily townie nor scummy.
Om - disappeared.
BRantz - using power and disappearing every day/night. Surely not in a solo non-town faction (i.e., werewolf SK).
Oranje - I wanted Oranje dead to get a better idea of whether I was roleblocked by Pika N1, but since BC has admitted his reflex doing so, I otherwise have no good reason to put Oranje either direction.

Scumlean:

PeregrineV - Jackel getting lynched over PV is strange. PV was more PL worthy for lurking, jackel claimed badly but PV got a free pass. Still somehow getting a free pass to let the game play itself while he's somewhere else doing who knows what.
Drixx - compared to last game, this is a very different person. Said he's meta-breaking, but there was no need to if he was town. There was like 4 people who just came out of the same game as Drixx in this one (although 2 got replaced after doing not much). Also SK kill immune scum is a pretty good role, by faction member count scums are more on the receiving end of a crossfire than SK so chances are better if you're SK BP instead of say, SK Cop.

Scum:

BC - investigation immune. What more do I say? Even if I was everyone's favourite townread and even if someone guaranteed me to go to endgame, I'd have claimed today and catch scum in exchange of my useless-anyway-after-N3-or-werewolf-flip power.
Titus - selective, manipulative, misrepresentating, tangenting, semantacing I'm making up words but you know what I mean
vonflare - based on previous wagon movements I had reasons to suspect vonflare for scum, I even targeted him last night but I found out today that I'm not a mafia cop.

I think I covered everyone, it's short because I need to head out like now but if you want some reads elaborated I'm willing to put the time and effort to do it, either tonight or tomorrow afternoon.
Also this is purely coincidence but I suspect we have 5 non-town players left and I have 5 worse-than-null reads.

[deathfisaro]

Well I actually read up to here but don't have time to post. Tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

[deathfisaro]

Why vonflare due to votes?

I remember someone pointing out the speed at which vonflare wagon dismantled. It was D1 or D2 I don't remember but I brushed it off as trivial nonsense initially.
After setup speccing and theorycrafting, non-towns jumping off vonflare to lynch a more townie figure instead is a possibility. I'm still a bit bothered by how a claimed tracker (although it was poorly done) was lynched D1 over a lurker.

[deathfisaro]

I actually wish today was D4, then we would have witnessed someone get nuked from orbit at the end of D3, Berlin Undercity's delayed NK flavour.
I wonder what happens if that target eats the day lynch. Is the person lynched, then the corpse nuked?

How do you know that?

I don't know that, but because I'm a Seer and I've seen flip from 2 mafia factions, I strongly believe in my conclusion of the setup. So I'm jumping to my favourite part of closed vanilaless games which is the setup spec <3

The only thing that's slightly annoying is how Vyse conceal flipped and the faction name has "Lair" in it.
But this is kinda countered by my drawback ability Skeptic.
I lose my Seer ability if no werewolf flips before D4. And if a werewolf conceal flips, that's kinda messed up.

If Volcano mafia is made up of werewolves (since Pika semi-full flipped and absolutely no indication of being a werewolf) then there's more, so one werewolf concealed flipping is okay, but that makes claimed similar roles weird.
Drixx is strictly weaker than ActionDan, and I'm strictly weaker than Boonskiies. Since AD & Boon's powers work against both mafia factions.

If nobody gets nuked at the end of today, I'll be quite disappointed, not only do I very likely become VT D4 which is sad already, I also failed at matching flavours with all the evidences presented =P

[deathfisaro]

We've seen flips from both mafia and they're both human. So werewolf has to be SK.

Now matching game.

Berlin Undercity
Tropical Volcano Lair
Werewolf

Nuked from orbit
Incinerated
Eviscerated

(I hate IE9...)

So...you're suggesting that Volcano...killed one of their own?

Yes, Berlin Undercity Mafia Bus Driver allows that.
With this many investigatives, what scums need is some ways to (albeit limited) control night action targetings. Scum bus driver works in both factions, like you can redirect incoming investigations on the teammate of your choice to some random dude of your choice, but you're not gonna target your teammate and some random guy and then decide to shoot said random guy to kill your teammate so I would say more likely Berlin (in my setup world anyway).

What Narninian claimed doesn't allow this (and I don't remember Narninian taking credit for this work) so instead of a weak town kill director, town has an absolute everything redirector (but bus driver is already that, isn't it?)

[deathfisaro]

@Bulba, what if we're making wrong assumptions and that Berlin harkens back to the Holocaust and incinerate is their kill and that Tropical Volcano Mafia is something Austin Powersish and they are nuking or shit from their lair?

I'm not really looking that deep into things, honestly. Although if one of the two mods did go that for, cool beans for them.

ChriVi, no. Don't chase that one. House is stupid, but not on the voting table. Talk with Cerb and see if you can agree on voting Death, or on someone else not-House.

But House isn't usually stupid. He's good when he's town- He's bad in this game. Which means he's not town.

so your theory is scum cop? or he delivered up his own with no immediate need?
I'm not buying scumhouse.

Agreed, I don't think the towncred House (well, keep having to say Ozgin because that was his work) and Lucian gained for killing the scums were worth sacking a mate over.

[deathfisaro]

I'm actually a little bit surprised that Cuttlefish answered that. Maybe if I mod a game it'll be very bastard =P

[deathfisaro]

@Death, My problem is two fold. First, you seem like a pretty smart guy who has seen PR roles played before. Thus having some method of seeing who you investigated is important and I feel you should have picked that us.

Second, you've been very hostile towards players I think are town and now can coexist with you. Bulba's play is textbooktown for a reflexive jsilkeeper, yet you push him days after your reflexive claim? What?

That being said (I like your behavioral reasons). The vote based reasons suggest to look more at PV or Drixx than vonflare if you're talking D1 wagons.

VLA ended. Needed to cool down.

1) Well, I don't really know who to target. As both town and scum. I just shoot House as scum and this is like the 2nd town active PR I've gotten (rolled a Doc once but died D1).
2) Due to depression I get severe (and frequent) mood swings, if I'm in a bad mood it just shows and if I'm in a good mood I'm nicer, more reasonable, logical, calm, etc. I think in this game alone I've gone through 3-4 cycles, I don't know if nobody noticed or people are nice enough to not say 'your mental illness is interfering with the game so get out'. I'm probably at like -15 / 100 at the moment.

[deathfisaro]

I'm equally happy to just be lynched and confirmed honest. It may be quite useful to the town.

Since werewolf BP has already claimed we don't see you drawing a werewolf NK anytime soon (if ever) so your potential of being useful for town is contents.
Can we get them prior to your lynch because there's no reason to hold onto them until twilight?

[deathfisaro]

So if I just claimed masons with Bulba would you believe it?

No and you shouldn't.

There is no get out of jail free card claim.

I don't get why that's hard to understand.



I'm obviously not claiming masons with Bulba.

Assume 3 man scum faction. 2 of them claim masons since you can't just claim mason with a random dude who is not.
With kill redirects, good chance of bus drives, possibility of investigatives confirming either person, and unpredictable NK choice of other non-town factions it's a get out of jail free early game card but one freak accident your whole faction sinks. Probably a go to jail card claim when mid & late game comes.
Especially more so since 1 from each scum faction died already.

[deathfisaro]

@Death, I'd tell you to cool down and take a break, not get out. Aside from depression, we all have that to some extent. I tend to be more aggressive if I feel people are out to get me. It happens. We all have personality profiles. If you feel depressed/moody, it's ok to say so and cool down as long as you do that regardless of alignment.

So let's move on from drama.

How would you play a reflexive jailkeeper provided you are town?

Nah, I'm not saying anyone did. It's hard to explain, it's not anger or temper, but would appear as manifestation of such. Not anything related to the game, moving on.

If I'm town reflexive JK, the goal (the ideal) is to draw in non-town night actions while not attracting town night actions.
1) Just play like a BP. The problem is I've never actually rolled BP before so I don't know how I would achieve that.
2) Fake claim something that's so significantly obviously pro-town that scums would want me dead immediately.

[deathfisaro]

Actually, forget that. I might just roflclaim Doc if I want to attract NKs.

[deathfisaro]

Well since it's unlikely I have any investigations left this game, I'll try to learn to do that in my future games.
3 people were getting replaced and none have shown up yet. D3 doesn't have too much time left, I think we should secure the nightskip and herd the vanity wagons into a couple main wagons.

[deathfisaro]

People seem like they'd rather lynch me, despite there being far more dubious claims and even claimed roles that make sense as scum roles in the context of what we have as mod confirmed info.

This you willing to share? Doesn't look like it'd require any extra effort to produce since it's on top of your head already.

[deathfisaro]

@Death: What are your reasons for thinking AD is town though? You put him in your town list, but your reasoning doesn't support a town read. Talk to me more about why you think Vonflare is scum (I like your thought process here, want to see how close we are).

RE: AD, by claim.
AD preemptively claimed ((both mafia) BP), if Drixx was only a ((single mafia faction) BP), that's a strictly sub power to AD's and AD's claim becomes questionable.
If AD was scum and was BP to the opposing scum faction, he wouldn't know if Drixx is both mafia BP, single mafia BP, or SK BP. And yet comfortably claimed first.
The whole silver lining thing didn't necessarily suggest SK back then because we haven't seen any scum flips.

However regardless of what AD claims, Drixx has committed to werewolf BP, and considering how I view werewolf as SK, SK BP scum member isn't that extraordinary.
AD coming out townier in the AD vs Drixx puts AD higher than Drixx. Combined with the claim, I don't think it's too blind for me to put him in my town pile.

RE:vonflare
I thought I was mafia cop so I bothered targeting him but now I only have a result that says he's not a werewolf. Since it never occured to me that vonflare had SK vibe, I don't know what to do with him. I'll just put him aside for today, and if I die then I don't need to worry anyway.

[deathfisaro]

@Death, you are not getting lynched today. I've come around to you being town because I can actually work with you.

Are you voting Drixx? I cannot remember. That's who we're lynching today.

Your monster dude needs a hat.

The most cost efficient way for me to die would be eating a NK from werewolf tonight because if I'm not lynched I might land on one and be alive tomorrow to share it. But I think nightskip value today is probably pretty good for the rest of town so I don't mind my way out is a lynch. I'm voting BBMolla for that reason, scums might be happy with no lynch, then town scrambles last minute to achieve a lynch (remember D1?) then molla wagon probably falls short of being the 2nd biggest.
If I was forced to get out of nightskip wagon for some reason, between you and Drixx I'd probably vote you, maybe 55:45. Also on top of that, your power is fluffy. I think I already expressed why I'd find too neutral powers scummy a long time ago in this thread.

[deathfisaro]

You have a problem with townreading 2 people claiming masons together but you're happy to treat Cerb as mason when he is the unconfirmed half of the one way mason couple?
Convince me how this one way mason thing should always result in 2 town combinations. You can't. Then Cerb isn't a mason and talking about Cerb isn't discussing mason claims.

[deathfisaro]

You're really manually replacing out of a near 5000 post game because you're not having fun as a result of your plays, and with slightly over 2 days left on D3?
I understand the frustration because that's also what I went through a few pages ago but after failing to get myself lynched I've sucked up and accepted playing as VT is fine.

[deathfisaro]

So if we're not nightskipping, I get 1 more chance to find a werewolf.
The problem is how to survive to share the result, whether positive or negative.
I honestly don't find that result worth protecting me over other PRs.

[deathfisaro]

ActionDan <--- Fairly sure this is the theorized SK. Requires some work to make the case clear.

I'm all ears.

[deathfisaro]

I'm somewhat irritated by the fact that people who are getting replaced have had very little content put out even when they were around.
Maybe large games should have global passive version of Lihin's power. Something like "On even days, everyone in this game will have their prod/replacement deadline cut by half"

[deathfisaro]

one thing that really just occured to me is that nuke from orbit could be a 3rd anti-town kill; BBmolla's ability could be setting them up for a 'free' extra kill. That being said, it could be a one-shot and a townskip would still avoid some incineration and evisceration.

If it was daykill, Ozgin should have been dead. I'm extremely leaning towards it being delayed NK.

[deathfisaro]

the freekazoid is BRantz?

-

B) BBMolla has claimed to have the ability to skip a night if he gets the second most votes, so a lot of the votes on him might be because of that and not because people are actually trying to lynch him (at least for me)

I can't recall anyone voting BBmolla with the intention of actually lynching him.
I'm in the pro-night skip today party but I can't say I have enough evidence to prove it indeed is objectively better for town to use today. I just believe it is so.

-

I think the extension should be 5 days because vonflare asked for replacedment on 6th and is still hasn't been replaced =P
And given the number of posts, a couple day extension might not be enough for replacements to get into the game and function as a full player.
(also if we don't see enough substantial posts from them, they are possibly getting a free pass for this day anyway)

[deathfisaro]

And Pirate Ika also really trolled him. Pika as it is was hard defending Trouser and so I think that is another scum. Also calls Brantz lynchbait which considering that Vyse tried to kill him means perhaps Brantz is aligned with Pika? Tbone is probably lean town based on them scum reading Pika? Toon is hated on by Pika and Vyse so probably lean town? Death comes up as a vote for Pika and a prod by Vyse. Defends wguert as a VI, why?

But this is multiball. Non-town faction members can hate each other because they're not really on the same team from their POV.

Does anyone know what Copper's role Facebooker was meant to do or if he might have crumbed anything?

Super tracker. 1 shot, track every night action performed up to the moment of use.

Why are "Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ???" question marks at the end of Vyse's thing?

I thought it was a bastard element but apparently just a concealed flip.

[deathfisaro]

Why don't the mafia factions trade kills? That's kind of weird in my opinion, but it will make the game go faster.

If they do that early game, they lose. After wiping out the other non-town factions, you are relying on 1 NK and 1 mislynch a day, and you need to down like 17+ towns over the course of the game. It's much easier for the non-town factions to not trade kills and get as many people (mainly town) dying as possible until non-town win chance is better and THEN have a mafia war.
With 1 down from each of the 2 scum factions, town win chance is actually pretty good already to complain about not too many crossfire happening.

[deathfisaro]

Who is "this lynch"? Is it AD?

[deathfisaro]

Well how do we comfortably put BBMolla at 2nd biggest?
PL anyone who is against nightskipping?

[deathfisaro]

1. Narninian -

Kill

Re-director

2. Pirate Ika (mollie & ika) - Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker - Shot through the heart day two.

3. Toon Fighter - Mason with Three-Pronged Trouser God
4. Oranje Crush (BROseidon & wgeurts) -

No claim?

Amnesiac commuter

5.

(Ozgin)

House -

Cop (Macho or Some other Variety?)

Faction investigator of some sort

6.

ActionDan

- BP (?)

to both mafia factions

7. Three-Pronged Trouser God (Untrod Tripod & kuribo & T-Bone) - Mason with Toon Fighter
8. Bulbasaur Commonwealth (Bulbazak & mastin2 & Voidedmafia) - Reflexive JK (meaning what exactly?)

If someone targets them with a night action, they get jailkept instead

9. ChriVi (Chrimi & Viomi) - Neighbor\mason with Cerberus

10. Jackel98 - Town Public Tracker - Lynched day one.

11. Boonskiies - Town

Seer (?)

skeptic cop

12. Drixx - BP (?)

to werewolf

13. PeregrineV - No claim?
14.

vonflare

- No claim?
15. (Cerberus) v666 - Neighbor

\mason

with ChriVi
16. BRantz - Day Commuter (?)

17. (Never-melt-ice) Marquis - Town New Kid on the Block - Eviscerated and incinerated night one.

18. LucianRoy -

Day vigilante

vengilante (vengeful + vigilante)

19. (Soren) Magua - Town Forgetful Watcher - Nuked from orbit day two.

20. VysePresident - Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ??? - Incinerated night two.

21. deathfisaro - Town Skeptical Paranormal Investigator (?)

basically skeptic seer

22.

(Om of the Nom)

elusive - Town
23.

(Reubus Swagrid)

Titus - No claim?

24.

(Dani)

Lihin - Town Double Day Foreman - Lynched day two.

25. BBmolla - Passive-ish role (?)

miller + nightskip if 2nd biggest wagon

26. copper223 - Town Facebooker - Eviscerated night two.

[deathfisaro]

Oh yeah I missed that.
PV, vonflare and elusive left. I don't recall elusive claiming.

[deathfisaro]

@TPTG
"Double Day" is hastening prod / replacement time by 2 times. Like, the target's day of inactivity counts as double days of inactivity.

@Drixx
If Berlin Undercity Mafia was composed of werewolves, even with Pika flip I don't know if I'll have my seer ability tomorrow. So if I live till N4, I'd be sending in a night action without knowing whether I can even send in a functional night action at that point. Is that "normal"? If I was forced to pick a faction in this game that isn't SK to be made up of werewolves, I'd go with Volcano LAIR mafia. Then SK might be like a pyromaniac that can incinerate. But given Boon's claim, it's unlikely that werewolf is in mafia factions. Most likely his and mine are made by the same mod (although depends on how common "skeptic" is?) and I'd be a strictly worse version of Boon's.

@elusive
House claim is to be believed because Ozgin correctly outed Pika with the right alignment, unless you think killing off a partner D2 in a 26 player game is for the benefit of your faction. He might be opposing scum faction's alignment investigative but I'd say quite unlikely to be Volcano.

The best way to confirm investigative claimers' alignment is by letting non-towns kill them IMO. Here's my logic
Even if Boon is scum, if he's scum investigative, the other scum faction has reasons to kill Boon.
Even if House is scum, the other non-town factions have reasons to kill House.
The most bizarre case is that I'm a werewolf in some non-town faction claiming to be seer when I'm not. Then you'll need a very good explanation for how I know exactly what seer result looks like down to capitalization and symbol. If I was something else like a scum investigative (for non-town factions) then other non-town factions have reasons to kill me.
At current point in time nothing really suggests any of the above so you'll just have to believe that werewolves might have a reason to kill me. If we nightskip, then the werewolves know if I'm a skeptic or not (although I don't) and they may or may not have reasons to kill me past N3. So for my personal benefit, the best way to die is to not nightskip today and turn up as wolf feed tomorrow morning so someone else doesn't die to werewolves. But to the whole town's benefit I think nightskipping to prevent up to 3 people from getting NK'd is better.

Being a multiball game, dealing with possible investigative fakeclaims is rather simple. Let the non-town factions deal with it themselves or let them risk it being true and getting investigated, outed, and get lynched.

[deathfisaro]

I also dislike both boon and death, and if I had to pick one to lynch it would be boon. I'm not sure of the merit in lynching them right now though.

What does this mean? Why would you want to lynch those two? Why isn't there merit in lynching them right now?

If you're town, or at least try to put yourself in a town mindset, I don't think it's so hard to figure out. Like this guy:

Elusive, they're claiming straight cop roles, with some modifications that weaken them.

I'd prefer to force scum to shoot them

amd resolve the issue of not knowing which cop claim to believe, than risk

town doing the work for them

at this point.

Assume some (or all) of the investigative claims were fake and/or they're non-town.
This game is confirmed to have at least 2 scum factions and although not explicitly confirmed, almost certainly at least 1 SK.
No matter in which non-town faction you place these people, there is at least 1 non-town faction that isn't sure whether the claim is true or not (i.e. they don't know if the claim is real and they'll end up getting investigated and outed and lynched).
So you're moving the danger of risk from town's hands to scum's hands. They can either take the risk and not believe the claim and let these people live, or they can shoot these fellas, at which point we lose those people but at least we didn't waste lynches on them.

[deathfisaro]

1) ~3 people from the same mafia team get killed to start suspecting annihilation of said faction
2) A kill flavour no longer showing up would likely conclude it

[deathfisaro]

If a mafia faction doesn't use their NK to hide that they're still around, it's still be worth it.
We presuming one faction is gone doesn't remove the surviving player of that faction to be exempt from crossfire / lynching. And yet one NK was not used.

[deathfisaro]

well then we can change tacts.

That's great, and how will we know when one of the scum teams are eliminated?

Probably we won't until one of the kill flavors disappears for a couple daYs?

If both factions have a cop fakeclaim, that won't happen.

If one faction knows that their member fakeclaimed cop, then more reason to suspect the opposing cop claim is genuine thus shoot the other claimed cop?

[deathfisaro]

well then we can change tacts.

That's great, and how will we know when one of the scum teams are eliminated?

Probably we won't until one of the kill flavors disappears for a couple daYs?

If both factions have a cop fakeclaim, that won't happen.

If one faction knows that their member fakeclaimed cop, then more reason to suspect the opposing cop claim is genuine thus shoot the other claimed cop?

And if both factions are waiting for the other to shoot a cop before they do (thus, participating in a passive truce)?

If you're scum1 fakeclaiming cop1, then you don't know for sure if cop2 is town or scum2. So to at least break even for not shooting, you need to KNOW the other cop claim is definitely fake and is actually scum. Given the list of claims, the only role that gives half the knowledge is actually you.
And I'd gladly welcome scums not shooting cops, because the cop will be alive and get investigations off. Resulting in both scum factions being probably worse off.

[deathfisaro]

Actually I wouldn't mind not shooting a cop claim as scum if my faction had an active roleblocker alive.

Well I took the opposite approach. I suggested better targets to shoot, thus better targets for any kind of redirecting.
For example, nobody should put any effort in saving me if nightskip fails tonight.

[deathfisaro]

And whether assuming the collective intelligence of both scum teams is a pigeon is a good approach.

[deathfisaro]

Spoiler: Dead

10.

Jackel98

-

Town Public Tracker

- Lynched day one.

17.

Never-melt-ice

Marquis

-

Town New Kid on the Block

- Eviscerated and incinerated night one.

2.

Pirate Ika

-

Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker

- Shot through the heart day two.

24.

Dani

Lihin

-

Town Double Day Foreman

- Lynched day two.

19.

Soren

Magua

-

Town Forgetful Watcher

- Nuked from orbit day two.

26.

copper223

-

Town Facebooker

- Eviscerated night two.

20.

VysePresident

-

Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ???

- Incinerated night two.

Actually based on the dead list:
2 Town Lynched Day

1 Scum

B

Shot\Vigged Day
1 Town Nuked Day

3 Town (1 Double Killed) Night

2 Town (1 Double Killed) 1 ScumV Night

[deathfisaro]

Massclaim wasn't really as a result of consensus. It was more as a result of so many people driven to L-1, investigated, randomly preemptively claimed illogically, etc.
We ended up with most of people claiming.

[deathfisaro]

@BC
If multiple people target you, do they all get reflexive JK'd?
Why don't we No Lynch everyday, have all active roles target BC, get JK'd, and let non-towns kill each other in a crossfire or start shooting BPs?

[deathfisaro]

Welcome Plotinus!
I'm starting to recognize more and more people every game. House should stop stalking me though

[deathfisaro]

Welcome Plotinus!
I'm starting to recognize more and more people every game. House should stop stalking me though

You're just bitter over the recent town win where you derped the last day (well to be fair, we both derped the innocent on Vamp, but you were the scum that suffered for missing it).

Not my fault, bro.

I think I posted before it happened. I'm not bitter because I didn't read and lost lol I find it actually pretty humorous since usually I pay attention to things.
You were in my recent 4 games in a row or something. You replaced into 3 of them, thus the stalking comment. Well to be fair one of the games I replaced into a game you were playing =P
P.S. All but this game out of the 4 have been completed.

[deathfisaro]

Unvote

Decided I don't care about the night skip tonight, mainly because a skip tonight turns death into a VT. Makes it neutral utility, and I think we'll learn more from the kills immediatey after we mass claim than we would from lynching twice in a row today.

Unless someone can strongly suggest that werewolf isn't SK or is in a faction of 2+ players, lynching a werewolf today might keep me a seer but with no alive werewolf to hunt for. Thus not any better than a VT. Well if I get to keep sending in night actions I might keep targetting BC to get reflexive JK'd but I don't think that does me nor town much good, if any.

I'm perfectly fine with becoming VT as a result of a nightskip.
I lose my power but up to 3 people don't lose their lives (and I don't see any way 3 non-town getting NK'd tonight), so it's a net positive for town.

And your hypothetical comments about ChriVi business looked pretty bad to be honest.

I don't know what you're going through but your posts today is quite different from the previous ones.

[deathfisaro]

Hi deathfisaro. I wish you'd lasted longer in our last game, hardly got to know you.

Spoiler: Plotinus' very preliminary reads list

TOWN
1) me
2&3)

Three

Two Prong Trouser and Toon Fighter because masons. that's good enough for now.
4) ChriVi because mason
5) House because he was scum in my last game. kidding. anyway i thought there was something about his predecessor having an accurate result about something?
6) drixx because we seem to have matching PMs and my predecessor thought that meant something and setup spec is hard so i'll just sheep ActionDan on that until I get to know drixx better.
7) lucianroy because he did that dayvig thing and killed scum

THE MIDDLE
8) deathfisaro the faction cop
9) oranje crush because the wiki says commuters are usually town aligned
10) narninian redirects kills at night. +honesty points and +scumhunting and activity
11) brantz because of that removing themself from the game during the day and being gone all night -- hard to do night kills if you're not in town. though it's 3? shot? so maybe he's mafia with a really good alibi?
12) Bbmolla because night skip thing - that's one of heck of a gambit if it is one. They're in the middle because what if it's a gambit and is really a dayskip thing instead?
13) bulbasaur the reflexive jailkeeper and i'm not sure what to make of that yet
14) Boonskiies -"town skeptical cop" - lots of fluff not much scumhunting
15) cerebrus - weird setup spec ability
16) Titus - not sure what I think of trying to create town voting blocks because I think if I were scum I'd definitely want to get into a town voting block. But I have her in the middle because I want to like her.

SCUM
17) elusive because the wiki says you're only supposed to claim town vengeful if you're scum vengeful
18) peregrienv for lurking (i don't think this is alignment indicative because apparently doing this everywhere but they've posted 26 posts so an average of 1 post every 4 pages.
19) vonflate for scummy posting and lurking. I liked Oranje's recent wall about him.

Well you left me a quite an impression, I strongly townread you over a single post, although it was more of a newbdrop I think that's still a talent. I feel like this game is not as newbie friendly =P (well 26 player vanillaless is quite a lot of new PRs to learn over a short period of time to start).

Wiki is a good place to start but I don't think "wiki says commuters are usually town" is a good enough reason to attach to a read. (I'm assuming the order signifies how strongly town each player is)
I don't remember the circumstances, but Lucian also preemtively claimed vengilante so it's interesting to see Lucian up town but elusive in the scum both having done similar things besides if they fired the gun already or not. Elusive is not a plain vengeful but I don't need to fish the other part out. If someone thinks their PR has something to do with her other part then they can dig it themselves. Maybe this influenced her claiming town vengeful part.

[deathfisaro]

elusive, you should replace out with him.

My win-con is to eliminate all threats to town

; If House is playing against town's wincon then he needs to be lynched, simple as that.

Emphasis added. I

really am

town, and my win condition reads absolutely nothing like this. That's not even an accurate paraphrase of what the town win condition says in my role PM. Nit picky perhaps but ... sometimes scum get caught by the dumbest things.

Why would I go look at my role for my wincon unless I was being paranoid and really wanted to check the town wincon? I'd be more suspicious of someone with a really specific, perfect town wincon example than a shitty paraphrase. Stop being bad.

Now you should go and check your role for your wincon because mine doesn't say that either.
It's such a simple and concise statement I can still reasonably accurately phrase it 5000+ posts since reading it.