KTaNE [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

I can’t believe there’s this many pages in this game already.

[Andresvmb]

I have read the mechanics - I know there’s a lot of discussion in the early pages, and if the game has moved on I don’t want to necessarily rehash what has already been discussed.

Instinctively, I don’t see the benefit of settling in advance whether a particular bomb will be diffused. If we are all agreeing to let every bomb explode from N2 onwards, then we’re opening ourselves up for the Scum to constantly send the Towniest player in the game to be a Defuser. We also know that the Scum will definitely send the Towniest player alive if one of the experts is Scum, and they will certainly get blown up. Which means, the nights provide useful information that we can build on top of if we allow the Experts to make a call based on their collective perception of how Townie the Defuser is, as to whether to provide correct information. The Scum can’t just constantly send Town to be a Defuser (and solidly Town at that), because if the Experts are all Town, then they run the risk that they start clearing players without getting any NK’s through.

Can somebody tell me whether this logic makes sense? Basically, I don’t think we should settle on telegraphing in advance what the Experts will do, but that’s my first instinct.

I’ll read and try and form some views separate from mechanics.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not diffused haha it’s defused.

[Andresvmb]

Now, I think the Scum get NK’s if we defuse bombs? But if we actively choose not to defuse a bomb, that player blows up. Like I think since both options are controlled by the Scum, but one lets us glean additional information about the other players being sent to be Experts, I think there’s some value in working to defuse the bomb when the Defuser seems Townie, and trying to sabotage that process when the player sent is potentially Scummy (which you’ll have to balance with the real knowledge that there’s a trade off in there somewhere of potentially blowing up Scummy looking Town players).

I don’t know, those are my thoughts. Basically, work to defuse if you think Town. Sabotage if you think Scum. Wait for the choices to be made. Actively try and get the Towniest players to be Experts. I think that’s a summary of what I think.

[Andresvmb]

that is how i feel about the mechanic, andres.

Hood sorting to determine if the player deserves to live essentially.

do you have any initial reads so far?

Not yet. It’s going to take some time for me to catch up completely and it’s the middle of the work day for me.

I do think that whoever suggested in the early part that we should actively sabotage every bomb from N2 onwards is more likely to be Scum than not, only because there’s a massive advantage in knowing what the Town will do in the case when all of the Experts that are picked are Town. So I would highly scrutinize that slot (do not remember who it is). Other than that, I’m not so sure the mechanical discussion that was clearly the bulk of the conversation in the early part tells me much about anyone’s alignment. Like I would have to read what else has happened.

Oh, and Pooky - you seem to have voted for yourself to be an Expert at one point. You can’t vote for yourself. It’s in the rules.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back later tonight. I need a few hours to read everything.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: Frogsterking
HEAL: catboi
HEAL: Greeting
HEAL: StrangeMatter
HEAL: Andante
HEAL: Titus
HEAL: Dwlee99
HEAL: fireisredsir

[Andresvmb]

Hey I’m here.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve only read like the first 20 pages or so. I have to keep reading. But I see my name being called.

[Andresvmb]

Frogsterking, you’re being too unkind about my mechanical analysis. I understand that you perceive the win con to be impossible for Town to achieve. I agree. I disagreed with all the takes that leaned towards signaling in advance what to do purely out of a reflex to avoid telegraphing to the Scum what the Town would do. I understand the impulse to default to failure unless widely TR. I don’t disagree.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll just post my notes. So you’ll see where my heads been at.

[Andresvmb]

35 - Good early reaction by catboi. Also thought early thoughts on setup were sufficiently pro-Town.
71 - Logic here from Lukewarm is exactly the same as mine in the early going.
85 - Greeting probably put too much effort trying to think of ways to break the game in favor of the Town to just be straight up Scum.
99 - This feels like too strong of a read too early for me. I have a hard time seeing how you can make any argument about VPB’s meta so quickly. I have not been liking frogsterking’s posting thus far.
113 - I don’t understand this at all, but just because I don’t agree, doesn’t make Titus Scum. I just wouldn’t trust them at all.
121 - I agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion here - the use of the word trash by frogsterking is too strong. I do have to say, I think my style clashes with Frogsterking, so I have to be careful about not falling for that trap.

[In general, I think those players arguing for just letting the bombs explode mindlessly in the early part of the game are suspicious. Not necessarily for the conclusion, but for the fact that they’re not thinking deeply about it and are looking for players to explode, which is more easily manipulated to favor the Scum.]

122 - Can’t disagree with Menalque’s vote here.
137 - I can’t say I agree with this set of reads, but it could just be because I’m viewing the game very differently from Frogsterking.
148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.
151 - This is the answer I expected initially.
169 - I like this read from Frogsterking. At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on VPB.

[I do not agree with the attacks by The Bulge and Andante on catboi. I’m starting to feel catboi is solidly Town.]

249 - I actually like the logic behind Titus’ post here.
261 - A bit too tryhardy for Scum.
307 - This observation from Dwlee99 I definitely agree with (about Cephrir).
327 - I do feel DW should be recognizing the obvious Town perspective from Andante though, even if they don’t think it’s their fault that a SR would tilt them.
330 - Pooky feels like they’re full of shit this game and wouldn’t trust them for anything.
367 - I don’t like how Bell is basically parroting VPB here. Too much suspicion onto Cephrir over not showing a lot of emotion about having rolled Town. Couldn’t the prevailing emotion just be relief? I don’t get it.

371 - I genuinely dislike this take from Bell.

[Andresvmb]

Lean Town
{Greeting, catboi, Frogsterking}
Slight Lean Town
{Lukewarm, StrangeMatter, Titus, Andante}
Neutral
{ }
Slight Lean Scum
{PookyTheMagicalBear, VP Baltar, The Bulge, Bell}

[Andresvmb]

Sorry it’s taking me so long to get into this game. I really like Datisi so I signed up for this game, and the mechanics looked dope.

[Andresvmb]

But I tend to do poorly on trying to keep up when I’m playing in more than one game at a time, and that’s a bit what’s happening to me right now.

[Andresvmb]

Those are early takes through post ~400. I just need to keep reading, and I’ll keep updating my takes. I don’t have everyvody’s names in the pyramid because it’s obviously not finalized and I just didn’t have much to go on for certain slots.

[Andresvmb]

I realize they’re no longer in the game. I just want to make sure you see how I perceived the slot before replacing, because sometimes it does help with figuring out how you see a player. If a predecessor is very Towny, it can help sway the way I look at the new player.

[Andresvmb]

My initial interpretation of the setup, and how I felt Town should act, is for everyone to see. I initially weighed the alternative win condition as follows:
The Scum are more often than not going to send Town players to defuse bombs. Why? Because if one of their own is nominated to be an Expert, they can benefit tremendously from giving incorrect instructions and blowing that player up as a replacement for having no free Night Kill. Yes, they gain NK’s for defusing bombs, and can get closer to their own alternative win condition as well, but with players that are naturally skeptical, it is far more likely in my mind that Town players will choose to sabotage the process at night if they have a suspicion that the player that has been nominated to defuse is Scum, precisely because the Scum win much faster by defusing bombs. If we start executing Scum, do you really feel like they’ll start putting their own as potential Defusers, when they’re doing so much better by simply fooling the Town? At least in the early part of the game. Later, I can understand why there’s going to be a natural inclination to not want to defuse any bombs (purely as a conservative move to avoid giving the Scum the chance to send one of their own and win). And if they have a few of their own members as Experts, they can almost limit the risk that a player will individually pick to sabotage the process and blow them up. But think about it for the first few bombs. The Scum know the probability that they have full control of any one bomb is a near impossible occurrence, and losing members of their own Team so early is a very risky proposition. Do you really see them sending some of their own on the first few tries? I don’t. That drove my initial reaction. As advice for the first few nights, I stand by my conclusions.

[Andresvmb]

I made a wrong statement - I meant to say, if we start executing Scum, the risk that their Team dwindles too quickly (way before they get close to defusing 4 bombs) feel like too great of a risk to start putting their own members up. I think it’s probably easier to try and play it straight, occasionally having to switch it up by sending players that are not obvious Town and sometimes their own members, but I do think the Town will default to being skeptical, and I don’t think they’ll undervalue their own Team members.

[Andresvmb]

But now that I’ve had some more time to think about it, I do agree that the default should be sabotage unless you’re fairly sure the player Defusing is Town. And this should be even more the case if we’re starting to catch Scum or cornering them, because then they’ll feel pressure to go for the alternative win condition instead of trying to win by fooling Town.

[Andresvmb]

Basically, in summary - Town players are far more expendable than Scum members. Yes, Town are risk averse, but I feel like Scum tend to be as well unless they start smelling defeat. If the game is going well for them, there’s a lot of risk in sending their Team members and having them flipped, giving away valuable information. If we start flipping Scum, to hell with defusing.

[Andresvmb]

151 - This is the answer I expected initially.
169 - I like this read from Frogsterking. At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on VPB.

[I do not agree with the attacks by The Bulge and Andante on catboi. I’m starting to feel catboi is solidly Town.]

249 - I actually like the logic behind Titus’ post here.

Okay now here I'm curious because I've been wracking my brain about the Titus slot, and I've felt that Titus strength is as a creative player, but here it seems you value her for her logic, am I right? Now are you finding Titus townie here because of her logic? It just says that you like her logic, not whether or not you believe this to be AI for Titus.

I have a similar question about your read on myself and on catboi. Do you townread me here or do you just like my read, and what do you mean catboi being solidly town? The way this is worded it almost looks like you townread catboi more because of Andante and The Bulge's attacks on them, is this because you scumread The Bulge and/or Andante?

I don’t know how to read Titus, to be totally honest. I like the logic behind Titus’ post because in games around here, I feel like what we end up with towards the end are the Town that are less engaged, and therefore less likely to get the answer right. I also feel like collectively, we’re more likely to find Scum that post a lot than those that don’t post enough but make solid contributions every now and then. Keeping activity up is just difficult if you know the answers, and in a game as big as this, it’s really hard to fake a solving mindset for a long period of time. So the instinct expressed there made sense to me.
Having said that, I have been in a few games with Titus where we’ve clashed somewhat strongly, and I think that Titus’ accuracy can fluctuate wildly. So I wouldn’t say that I rely on Titus having solid logic for reading them as Town. I just thought their insight there was valuable and correct, and felt it was sufficiently around the edges strategy wise that I should lean it coming from a Town mindset.

[Andresvmb]

No I don’t TR either of you because of the attacks on you. I TR the two of you because I felt you were trying to solve the game, put pressure when possible in ways I could relate to, and had good contributions.

Look, it’s D1. All I have is my gut, and my previous experience. I don’t know whether you’re Town or not. What I do know is that I don’t think it’s easy to post as Scum in the way that you have. That’s enough for me this early. I don’t think your strategic contributions are pro-Scum, and I think there’s solid reasoning behind why you’re perceiving certain players a particular way. Like if I’m reading, and I see you asking certain questions of a player, which match with whatever

[Andresvmb]

I was thinking, I’ll lean positively.

[Andresvmb]

I need to keep reading though. I feel like my view of the game is too incomplete.

[Andresvmb]

also i just realized this but if we hit a scumbag we can just defuse bombs cuz theres only 4 scum so as long as we dont let any1 defuse 2 bombs we're gucci

This is an interesting thought. Basically anyone that is put up twice if getting blown up unless the Experts are all Scum. But Pooky is ignoring that possibility too hard and I don’t like that. Having said that, I think either way defusing bombs to win is hard, and I don’t know that the Scum will default to pursuing that towards the start. That’s the main source of my mechanical skepticism.

[Andresvmb]

Apparently no one has asked this,

Andre why are you healing people if you've read like, half the game.

I don’t need to read every word to have a sense for some players in the early part. And Healing doesn’t close the thread or shorten the day as far as I can tell, so doing it doesn’t have any impact until the day has ended. So I can update those no problem, and if a majority is reached without my vote, and I want to have some influence. It’s like if you’re going to criticize this about me, did you criticize Pooky when they put Heal votes down in the early part of the game (and very many at that)? Otherwise, you’re basically saying that you prefer to have less information from me, not more, and that seems kind of silly.

[Andresvmb]

Apparently no one has asked this,

Andre why are you healing people if you've read like, half the game.

I don’t need to read every word to have a sense for some players in the early part. And Healing doesn’t close the thread or shorten the day as far as I can tell, so doing it doesn’t have any impact until the day has ended. So I can update those no problem, and if a majority is reached without my vote, and I want to have some influence. It’s like if you’re going to criticize this about me, did you criticize Pooky when they put Heal votes down in the early part of the game (and very many at that)? Otherwise, you’re basically saying that you prefer to have less information from me, not more, and that seems kind of silly.

Why bother if you're just going to update them anyway.

You’re defaulting to wanting to see less from me, not more, and I can’t for the life of me understand your impulse. So should I not post until I’ve read every word? Are you going to insist everyone read everything before they consider voting? It’s nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: frogster

I felt like @Frogsterking you were wrong about your mechanical angle, and couldn’t understand your early aggressiveness perhaps (I felt it misplaced). Which is why I couldn’t fault the vote. The more I kept reading, the more I felt like your probing (though aggressive) was leading to positive places, and I started to grasp your strategic discussion more.

[Andresvmb]

You didn't plop down a vote. Why didn't you vote someone?

You fault me for putting Heal votes down without reading everything (which if I’m being realistic, the odds that I get 8 Town and no Scum even if I read every word D1 are not great), but you want me to place my single elimination vote already? Why?

My strongest SR from the early going was VPB. I’m not ready to vote there until I have actually at least read the entirety of what’s been posted so far so I can be surer there aren’t Scummier slots.

[Andresvmb]

@Frogsterking the above explains why I haven’t voted yet.

Okay, not only is it 3am for me, I need to keep reading. I’ll be back later. But I’ll try a little harder to stay on top of this one.

[Andresvmb]

andres, do you often catch up in games by making posts like this one?

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

wasn't he directly asked? why is it bad that he answered the question

also this

He answered the question in a way that I don’t think Town would default to. Who cares when was the last time I played Scum. I’m Town - read me right. Like VPB can be feisty. I feel like they’re more likely to dismiss that question as silly (and as illogical as it is) if they weren’t trying to appease the person asking.

I don’t usually post my notes when catching up, but I can post long summaries of my thoughts if I haven’t been all that active. I like to organize my thinking, and writing notes let’s me do that. I also like to reference specific posts when making arguments (as either alignment though), so not sure you’ll glean too much from that.

[Andresvmb]

You're asking too many inane questions with near brick like thinking. I'm not going to answer them, use your imagination.

I’m trying to get you to say that you think I’m responding like Scum so we can dispose of the dance and get to it already. I think it’s silly that you prefer I don’t try and Heal players, or post unfinished thoughts. If you don’t care for progression, and just want to see results, then you don’t care about the way I’m thinking (which is more likely to lead to a right conclusion about my alignment), and just want to blame me when I inevitably get things wrong. Which raises my level of suspicion about your slot.

[Andresvmb]

99 - This feels like too strong of a read too early for me. I have a hard time seeing how you can make any argument about VPB’s meta so quickly. I have not been liking frogsterking’s posting thus far.
113 - I don’t understand this at all, but just because I don’t agree, doesn’t make Titus Scum. I just wouldn’t trust them at all.
121 - I agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion here - the use of the word trash by frogsterking is too strong. I do have to say, I think my style clashes with Frogsterking, so I have to be careful about not falling for that trap.

Now andres I have some really specific questions about a couple more parts of your notes.

You agree with the observation made by GuiltyLion, but do you find it AI? What was it about the strength of my words that drew your attention here, is it AI for me?

It seems like you warmed up to my idea about VPB, or at least to the idea about scumreading VPB. Do you feel like I was onto something here with my reason for reading VPB, or do you think I just got lucky by random chance?

Also, it seems like you had some very conflicting views about my slot and Titus' throughout the course of the game. Was there any reason you couldn't have asked us or at least me about some of these things you disagreed with? It's not like I haven't been online through all hours of the night before.

I will think a player is less likely to be Scum in the early part if I don’t find their thinking offensive. Like most people aren’t great Scum. It’s too hard. So they’ll grab onto things that really aren’t alignment indicative, or overreact, or look for fights they think they can win. I don’t think any Scum in their right mind would try and argue too hard against you. Like why? It just seems like a dumb way to go about anything, since you’re clearly active, probably annoying to deal with when convinced, and can clearly be persuasive. I would appease you or ignore you, not look to criticize you. So I felt it was AI in that way.

I think you were onto something with VPB, but until I read more, I won’t know if I fully agree. But certainly from the early part of the game, I think you were coming at it the right way. I think anyone can get lucky. Good players spot Scum at a rate that’s better than chance. Are you like that? I don’t know - we haven’t played together enough. You don’t seem incompetent to me.

Titus I can’t give a definitive answer on. That’s definitely way too early for me given what I’ve read.

I post my thoughts first, and ask questions later. I was in catch up mode still, so it’s hard to have an actual conversation when I don’t even know everything you’ve argued.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not sure if you're posting like town either, but I do think it's a little weird yeah. I think how you're talking to me is odd because it starts with some general premise about how you think mafia works and then you apply it poorly to my posts in addition to straw manning me. Like a normal person, I poke people until they start making sense. Or they don't. Or I forget.

You were asking me why I was healing players when I haven’t finished reading. I just think it sets an unrealistic standard for how I’m supposed to approach the game. So I got a little annoyed. Like oh you haven’t read everything, so how dare you partake in the full experience? I took it from that perspective. But if that wasn’t what you were trying to do, then it’s fine. But I also wanted you to be a bit more specific because I don’t want to be answering a lot of questions if I’m starting to get the feeling that you’re just trying to trip me, not when I have like 40 more pages to read.

[Andresvmb]

And also, we all have preconceived notions about how Scum play (or at least how certain personality types / players might approach a particular game as Scum). Sorry if I’m applying it “poorly” to your posts, but I have to start from somewhere.

[Andresvmb]

*scum can you please nom Frogster king first as bomb guy.

Pedit: feels fake.

What does?

The part after your reads list where you talk to the air.

This part I dislike. I make comments that don’t appeal to anyone specific all the time. In fact, I’m pretty sure it’s a normal part of how a lot of players speak. Unless there’s a point in here specific to DW, I fail to understand this conclusion at all.

[Andresvmb]

Andres I have another question actually.

Over the last couple of hours you increased your post count from 6 to 36 and posted A LOT of observations about the thread, almost as though you've been reading along. Was there anything special about tonight that caused you to reveal your thoughts and increase the magnitude of your content by such a degree?

Yeah I started reading around midnight my time, because I had said I would read tonight. The simple reason is that I found some time and I enjoy playing mafia and I didn’t want to disappoint Datisi. I almost feel like I can’t be complete shit this game only so that I don’t make Datisi feel like I’m a bad player haha

[Andresvmb]

Just because I'm feeling cheeky: andres when you leave, do you mind asking Strange to return to the game thread with her completed readslist we've been waiting for? I know she's in there with you.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

You’re arguing a little too hard for me as Scum and I don’t think I trust it at all. Like you’re not just reading me pretty badly, you’re also being somewhat overconfident about it.

[Andresvmb]

I think it’s pretty obvious that you’re implying that I’m only posting a lot for some Scummy reason you’re not fully detailing. If you feel that way, you might as well say what that reason is.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

Are you going to be this obnoxious the whole game?

[Andresvmb]

I'm not even sure it makes sense for you not to realize he's baiting you I'm pretty sure you've played more games of mafia than I have.
So I'm confused again.

Ignore me too, this is also bait in a fashion.

I interpreted the early part of the exchange as curiosity and skepticism which I felt was fair. At this point, I do realize it’s somewhat in bad faith.

That's probably because this might be the case.

Bell have you not realized fire and andres are scum yet?

Are you going to be this obnoxious the whole game?

Neither of us will be alive by tomorrow I imagine.

andres will you be a bro and give me a clue on the 4th one? I've been wracking my brains all day. I know it's NOT VP Baltar

Yeah I’ll stop interacting with you. You’re overconfident and wrong and I find that kind of aggravating and I would rather focus on actually catching up since that’s better for my own sanity.

When I do flip Town though, if we do play again, I will keep reminding you of how shit you are at reading me.

[Andresvmb]

You’re reacting in this game in response to being buried in a different game. I suggest you reconsider your approach because it seems rather toxic.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll try and continue reading and provide some further thoughts.

Btw, I really do think that my healing shouldn’t be questioned as much as it has been. I thought it made perfect sense. It was also pretty simple to explain.

[Andresvmb]

Now I'm going to make the mistake of correlation = causation and claim that andres showed up two nights in a row BECAUSE of the formation of his wagon.

You’re really bad at the game, and should pay more attention to what I wrote.

[Andresvmb]

You really should be second guessing yourself since you’re way wrong and it’s becoming annoying. You’re giving cover to other players and are going to drive this game into the dirt.

Anybody who has an issue with me sharing incomplete thoughts based on what I had managed to read in the first 20 pages isn’t being logical. Oh, you’re out of date with more recent arguments and so your perspective is fake is an idiotic argument. I haven’t read the more recent arguments or posts - of course I haven’t considered them when forming the worldview that I shared. How obvious. I’m not here every day, I can’t play nearly as often as most of you, and I have clearly fallen behind in multiple games as both alignments. VPB knows this and is pretending that I should magically know everything that’s happened and have updated my worldview already. This is nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

Are you actually reading the game though? Frog stated I haven't been scum in awhile, and I pointed out that's not accurate. How the fuck do you walk away from that and say I'm being self-conscious?

How do I not walk away from you responding to the attack that relies on a logical fallacy by providing an appeasing response instead of bashing the logic while saying you’re being self-conscious? And I haven’t read whatever else you’re referencing here so yeah, not sure how I’m supposed to factor that in. I also didn’t think the initial reaction was silly. Since, you know, I had the same reaction.

[Andresvmb]

169 - I like this read from Frogsterking. At this point, I think I judged the slot too early, because I very much vibe with their take on VPB.

This does not look great for andres because he has actually played with me many times and always as town. Citing tone and hiding behind Frogster's read is no good.

Are you saying I have always been Town? Or that you’ve always been Town? The first one is true, the second one isn’t.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t need to read every word to have a sense for some players in the early part. And Healing doesn’t close the thread or shorten the day as far as I can tell, so doing it doesn’t have any impact until the day has ended. So I can update those no problem, and if a majority is reached without my vote, and I want to have some influence. It’s like if you’re going to criticize this about me, did you criticize Pooky when they put Heal votes down in the early part of the game (and very many at that)? Otherwise, you’re basically saying that you prefer to have less information from me, not more, and that seems kind of silly.

Yeah, but the heals tell us nothing actually because you say you've only read 20 pages at that point? So like, there is no relevance to the current game state. If you are scum, could just be a lowkey way to get some heals on a buddy by also healing some consensus town reads. I don't understand the motivation at that point to heal if you feel like you're behind. Wouldn't you want to get in the flow of the game a bit and then drop heals you feel more confident on?

This attack is getting old really fast.

The answer is no. I’ll heal whoever I want based on whatever I’ve read. You’re acting like 20 pages is very little content. Or that I couldn’t possibly get a decent feel for tone while reading that much. Sure, I can form better reads by maybe reading a bit more which I’ll obviously try to do. But my reactions are useless. And it’s D1 regardless. It’s not like I’m going to have any real information.

[Andresvmb]

Andres you know that in the game we played before, when we were SvT you kept telling me over and over that my argument is nonsense?

Regardless of your alignment, it's a very poor choice of words to use that same line again.

I don’t care what you think of my choice of words. You’re being stubborn even though I’ve revealed more than enough about my slot for you to Unvote.

[Andresvmb]

I'm more interested in you addressing why you did a huge catch up post this game when you've replaced into other games and didn't do that or chose to go about it differently.

I didn’t replace into this game. And I have not done anything I haven’t done as Town in other games. Check again.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t need to read every word to have a sense for some players in the early part. And Healing doesn’t close the thread or shorten the day as far as I can tell, so doing it doesn’t have any impact until the day has ended. So I can update those no problem, and if a majority is reached without my vote, and I want to have some influence. It’s like if you’re going to criticize this about me, did you criticize Pooky when they put Heal votes down in the early part of the game (and very many at that)? Otherwise, you’re basically saying that you prefer to have less information from me, not more, and that seems kind of silly.

Yeah, but the heals tell us nothing actually because you say you've only read 20 pages at that point? So like, there is no relevance to the current game state. If you are scum, could just be a lowkey way to get some heals on a buddy by also healing some consensus town reads. I don't understand the motivation at that point to heal if you feel like you're behind. Wouldn't you want to get in the flow of the game a bit and then drop heals you feel more confident on?

This attack is getting old really fast.

The answer is no. I’ll heal whoever I want based on whatever I’ve read. You’re acting like 20 pages is very little content. Or that I couldn’t possibly get a decent feel for tone while reading that much. Sure, I can form better reads by maybe reading a bit more which I’ll obviously try to do. But my reactions are useless. And it’s D1 regardless. It’s not like I’m going to have any real information.

^my reactions aren’t useless.

I obviously wasn’t trying to say I totally suck.

[Andresvmb]

You didn't plop down a vote. Why didn't you vote someone?

You fault me for putting Heal votes down without reading everything (which if I’m being realistic, the odds that I get 8 Town and no Scum even if I read every word D1 are not great), but you want me to place my single elimination vote already? Why?

My strongest SR from the early going was VPB. I’m not ready to vote there until I have actually at least read the entirety of what’s been posted so far so I can be surer there aren’t Scummier slots.

Good question from Bell, a sad reply from andres.

The logic of healing becuase you can always change it applies to voting too. Except there is the additional scum cover motivation I noted above, so....

Except a majority ends the voting phase and forces twilight, healing doesn’t. But hey, probably a meaningless distinction to you.

[Andresvmb]

I will consider anyone actually relying on Frog’s more recent arguments to be claiming Scum.

[Andresvmb]

You didn't plop down a vote. Why didn't you vote someone?

You fault me for putting Heal votes down without reading everything (which if I’m being realistic, the odds that I get 8 Town and no Scum even if I read every word D1 are not great), but you want me to place my single elimination vote already? Why?

My strongest SR from the early going was VPB. I’m not ready to vote there until I have actually at least read the entirety of what’s been posted so far so I can be surer there aren’t Scummier slots.

Good question from Bell, a sad reply from andres.

The logic of healing becuase you can always change it applies to voting too. Except there is the additional scum cover motivation I noted above, so....

Except a majority ends the voting phase and forces twilight, healing doesn’t. But hey, probably a meaningless distinction to you.

Are you seriously arguing that you were worried you would hammer someone or contribute to the game day ending early so you didn't vote anyone?
Because that's silly.

CLEARLY not the first one. I didn’t want my vote to become stale and force an execution I wasn’t ready for. Sue me.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I can practically guarantee that if I’m not the NK, I’ll be a Bomb Defuser. Since Frogsterking believes all the nonsense they’re spewing, and they’re convinced I’m Scum, just watch them short circuit when they start to realize that the Scum wouldn’t send me to get blown up by him, but then concluding that the WIFOM is too strong, and they should blow me up anyway.

[Andresvmb]

^blown up by them*

I’m actually not sure of the correct pronoun.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Bell

[Andresvmb]

HURT: Frogsterking

[Andresvmb]

CLEARLY not the first one. I didn’t want my vote to become stale and force an execution I wasn’t ready for. Sue me.

This conversation is rapidly devolving into-

"this thing andre did is scummy!"

"no it isn't!"

I doubt pursuing this further will change anyone's perceptions of you. I suggest you catch up asap to give more fleshed out reads

pedit: lmao

Any reasons that have been expressed to paint me as Scummy have already been proven to be bad because I’m Town and anyone paying close attention to my posts already understands the reasons. Frog is just the personification of stubbornness.

[Andresvmb]

Any reasons that have been expressed to paint me as Scummy have already been proven to be bad because I’m Town and anyone paying close attention to my posts already understands the reasons. Frog is just the personification of stubbornness.

I think your catch up was scummy.

And you sitting there saying "but my catchup wasn't scummy because I'm actually town!" isn't going to change my mind, because it doesn't help me at all.

The actual reasons have gone way over your head. Your insistence only makes you look worse in the long run.

[Andresvmb]

Any reasons that have been expressed to paint me as Scummy have already been proven to be bad because I’m Town and anyone paying close attention to my posts already understands the reasons. Frog is just the personification of stubbornness.

I think your catch up was scummy.

And you sitting there saying "but my catchup wasn't scummy because I'm actually town!" isn't going to change my mind, because it doesn't help me at all.

The actual reasons have gone way over your head. Your insistence only makes you look worse in the long run.

Do you even know what my reasons for scumreading you are???

Or are you just talking on cruise control now

Because you haven't responded to me this entire time

I don’t care what they are.

How are you all really not picking up what I’m laying down? There’s no way there’s this many players that are obtuse. Because if it is the case, then I might as well not really try and just mindlessly push people for whatever I read last.

[Andresvmb]

I wonder if the scum team are coaching each other a lot.
I didn't really expect Andresvmb to start aping my exact attitude toward being run up. Mostly because I feel we're very different people and he always seems serious minded under a thin veneer of humor. So hearing him make an argument like that unironically is...a revelation. In a sense.

I think you are all missing the point so hard about what I’ve written that I’m totally baffled.

I am level headed. I am not making a circular argument about why I’m Town. I just think you all aren’t reading closely enough. It doesn’t matter - I can take the heat. In fact, this might be the one time where I don’t actually care if I’m mis-executed only so that I can scream at Frog later from the Dead Thread about how terrible their accuracy is regarding my slot, and how they should refrain from ever trying again. And fundamentally, that’s the issue with players that play as if their reads are golden (with no humility), but constantly get things wrong. Like their takeaway from the last time we played together is that they should have been more insistent about the one read they had in the early game. But they were pushing a player that had come out and said that they weren’t going to post much in IV, who was trying to manipulate their meta to care less about games (and was my Partner). And when they claimed a role that wasn’t truly alignment indicative (IV), Frog switched their stance. In that game, I was agreeable towards them, and tried actively to pocket them. Why? Because they’re erratic and over time that just plays into Scum’s hands.

In any case, I think Frog deserves to be treated as Town (despite how obnoxious they’re being, and perhaps this is what they would do as both alignments, but I do think that they would be slightly more careful about being so over the top with their pronouncements of Scum).

At some point btw last time we played, I pushed for their execution because I felt that their eagerness to attack anything that moves, and being wrong repeatedly, made them hard to trust. I do think that as Scum, the way to play it is to just let them drive a few mis-executions, and then you push them. They’ve made it even easier by arguing that their accuracy has improved when even after my barrage of posts they think I’m lock Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I played a game recently in a different forum where after collecting multiple votes, I shrank and stopped posting. Fundamentally I’m just not all that eager to fight a crowd as Scum because it’s hard to fight when you’re feeling like others have you right and there’s very little you can say that’ll change the outcome. I have a hard time seeing how I’m ever going to convince Frog that I’m Town, to the point that I can already predict that the Scum WILL use that to their advantage. I’m that sure. And yet, I’m still here, and I will continue to try and contribute. And really, it’s only because I respect Datisi, and I don’t want to let them down. But I am going to warn you all - this approach form Frog is going to drive apathy through the roof. You can already see how multiple players have said that oh, so many posts, I don’t care to read them, even though I have actively responded to a lot of arguments and the more recent pages I think do tell the story about what alignment I am.

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

[Andresvmb]

Anything critical that I’ve missed?

I'd appreciate a second opinion on the 40 posts andres just dropped

I could vote him but it's not screaming scum at me

the progression on you around VP was unpersuasive to me and seemed too telegraphed as a shift

plus a bunch of the reads in the catchup wall being without commentary initially made it look like a busy-work sort of approach. especially disliked comments such as: "A bit too tryhardy for Scum."; "Pooky feels like they’re full of shit this game and wouldn’t trust them for anything"; "I genuinely dislike this take from Bell."

all of these things could have been v easily expanded on/dug into more in the catchup but instead he needed to be prodded for the extra info

this was it if you didn't see it

why was your catchup so barebones in details when you went to the effort of making a big catchup post altogether?

What didn’t you like about me saying that Andante was being too try-hardy for Scum? They were actively engaging with Frog. Okay look maybe take it from this perspective. Whenever I read Frog, I start thinking that a hole in my head would feel better than what I feel when I’m processing their arguments. Andante trying so hard to engage them and their reasons felt Towny to me. I tried for like what 2 pages or something to engage with what they were saying against me, and I basically gave up. Either Andante is trying to pocket Frog (and really, do you think that’s the way to do it? By asking them questions? What CSF is doing of just agreeing with them is exactly the way to do it), or they’re just curious Town trying to advance the game.

[Andresvmb]

so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

it's almost as if

why was your catchup so barebones in details when you went to the effort of making a big catchup post altogether?

Because the catch-up was incomplete. It’s not a catch up in the sense that it details my thinking exactly (which I tried to do by answer questions later), but more a list of notes around posts that triggered a reaction from me. What I will do it I can ever get through the entire game is to then weave the posts from say a few players that pinged me the most into some sort of narrative as to why they’re Scum. If the narrative makes sense, maybe I’m not that off and will feel better after being examined by other players for my views. And maybe, it’ll be shredded and I’ll realize I’m wrong.

But it’s not a catch up in the sense that I detailed this player is Town and this player is Scum and this is why. I think that’s obvious.

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

[Andresvmb]

It's not that I disliked it in and of itself -- it's that it was a very barebones and unconstructed thought which is exactly the sort of shit that I and other scum like to throw out

because it's the illusion of saying something while not actually backing it up with anything that can be (a) checked or (b) argued against really. the more fleshed out version is much more helpful.

my understanding of andante is that she's a tryhard most of the time, so it seemed off that you were suggesting the tryhardy-ness made her town.

also, just ignore frog if he's getting to you

could you try to go into some more depth on your thoughts re: pooky and that post by bell in the same way you just did on andante pls?

I’m not you. I don’t care what you do as Scum. Have you seen me play Scum? Do I make unconstructed and partial arguments when I’m trying to avoid suspicion as that alignment? Like that’s relevant.

And you can say that you think it’s throwing random shit to try and appear to be contributing. But is that really what you believe? Have I not followed up on certain comments with specifically what drove my reaction? Is that not helpful?

[Andresvmb]

And Frog isn’t “getting to me”. Frog is actively playing in a way that’ll make it harder for Town to win. Because not only are they wrong, they’re tunneled, and they can’t see it. And you know, it seems like they’re bitter about being mis-executed in a game I was Scum, and it’s filtering into how they’re approaching me here. You can see multiple references to the other time we played when they pushed me earlier. So it’s not entirely driven by my content in this game.

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

[Andresvmb]

^@Menalque

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

I mean, I think I asked for the case on you, got a bad answer, and went "mmmk whatever yall, don't have time for this" and walked away tbh
idk what my reads even are, I saw Mena posted actual content after my vote there, so I'm a tad sus of mena if I'm gonna be honest, and I think my reads are opposite of like everyone, so I'm just chilling

Now let me ask you this - if you think the reasoning is bad, why aren’t you more actively pushing against it or asking questions? I might have missed it, but it’s not like I have an insignificant amount of pressure on me. Do you not care if I’m executed?

[Andresvmb]

It's not that I disliked it in and of itself -- it's that it was a very barebones and unconstructed thought which is exactly the sort of shit that I and other scum like to throw out

because it's the illusion of saying something while not actually backing it up with anything that can be (a) checked or (b) argued against really. the more fleshed out version is much more helpful.

my understanding of andante is that she's a tryhard most of the time, so it seemed off that you were suggesting the tryhardy-ness made her town.

also, just ignore frog if he's getting to you

could you try to go into some more depth on your thoughts re: pooky and that post by bell in the same way you just did on andante pls?

I’m not you. I don’t care what you do as Scum. Have you seen me play Scum? Do I make unconstructed and partial arguments when I’m trying to avoid suspicion as that alignment? Like that’s relevant.

And you can say that you think it’s throwing random shit to try and appear to be contributing. But is that really what you believe? Have I not followed up on certain comments with specifically what drove my reaction? Is that not helpful?

bro, I'm gonna say this once: I'm not the enemy here (unless ur scum lol)

I know that being pushed can be frustrating. I'm trying to get to a more confident read on you, and part of that is me explaining why I think the things I do and trying to see if I can understand/believe the things you say. me explaining how I view the game and it being related to how I play scum doesn't mean that I expect every player to do the same. it does prime me to notice that behaviour more and to be more inclined to scumread it until I have a good alternative explanation for it. I've also said at least once and I think more than that that I'm not really using meta these days

if you think my direct questions are things that you've already answered, please point me to them if you don't wanna repeat yourself. but I'm also struggling to keep up and so I'm choosing to not put too much stock into reading through stuff if there's not a specific thing I'm looking at, and instead I'm trying to get my reads from when I have the chance to actually engage with people

pedit: "frog isn't getting to me. frog is playing in a way that'll make it harder for town to win" bruh in what sense does that not meet the definition of getting to you unless you're not annoyed that frog is making it harder for town to win

You’re insinuating Frog is getting under my skin. They aren’t. That’s what I meant. Being annoyed at a player making it harder for Town to win isn’t the same as being annoyed at their silly arguments against me.

And Menalque I don’t know your alignment. You’re in a way feeding the beast by asking questions that you aren’t willing to provide your thinking around, but leaving it open for others to use it to attack me.

For example, by saying that you as Scum might post something unconstructed and not that well thought out, you are saying (without having to say it directly) that I could be doing that as Scum. So instead of actively having to say I think you’re Scum because your post was unconstructed in a way that I think Scum you would do, you open up the possibility that someone could grab your argument and use it as a reason to SR me without taking ownership of what you’re putting forth. But ultimately, the argument you put forth is bogus - it doesn’t matter what you would do as Scum when reading me. It matters whether I would do it as Scum or not. I don’t know whether you are or aren’t the enemy - that’s a bit the point isn’t it?

If you’re not reading through most things and just actively choosing to participate in the game whenever you want, I’m not sure I need to be responding by pointing to my previous answers. The onus is on you to get the anew right by actually reading through my posts. I don’t have the time to be spoon feeding you what I’ve said previously, and will not be doing that.

[Andresvmb]

^get the answer right*

[Andresvmb]

but I'm just saying, if 5 people have the exact same reasoning for voting you, there's no way all of them are town

I know you meant Scum, and that’s fine. I’m not saying they’re all Scum. What I am saying is that they’re wrong, and Scum is taking advantage of the loud player pushing nonsense. I don’t think I ever said everyone arguing against me was Scum.

[Andresvmb]

hey Andres, real quick q: did you see my post explaining why you're in my pool of people I'd be down to kill and if so did you respond? I skimmed ur iso just now real quick and couldn't find it

Look Menalque there’s like 5 players that are making the same sort of argument about why I’m Scum. I don’t care to fight every damn case about my slot. I haven’t fully caught up, and I’m still reading, so if there’s something specific you want to ask while I’m here do it.

and what are the odds all 5 of them are scum... like, if you're town (idk my read on you yet) my guess is first SR was town, and scum went "oh yeah! easy push cause he doesn't talk!!"
I don't believe all 5 pushing you with the same reasoning are town... but that's just my two cents

Frog is way wrong, but probably Town. Scum sees that, and is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of it. Loud players that are wrong and thing the right way to play is to yell their position repeatedly are a god-send for Scum. Someone in there is being lazy and thinks Frog’s reasoning is correct. Which do you even understand, btw?

I mean, I think I asked for the case on you, got a bad answer, and went "mmmk whatever yall, don't have time for this" and walked away tbh
idk what my reads even are, I saw Mena posted actual content after my vote there, so I'm a tad sus of mena if I'm gonna be honest, and I think my reads are opposite of like everyone, so I'm just chilling

Now let me ask you this - if you think the reasoning is bad, why aren’t you more actively pushing against it or asking questions? I might have missed it, but it’s not like I have an insignificant amount of pressure on me. Do you not care if I’m executed?

Cause I have like no motivation? I mean, idk what my reads really are anymore, real life kept coming up, I've been busy, I think that's been pretty obvious by my drop in activity... idk what the VC is, idk the deadline, I have a few people I'm looking at, but that's about it, like I came back to 600 posts, when I was last here you had no posts, that is not my fault. so how would you expect me to have a strong enough TR on you to fight to save you here?? just doesn't make sense... cause legit the last stuff from you was like "I'll post later"

I empathize with life getting in the way. But you also did say that you thought the reasoning I was getting voted was bad, and instead of engaging with the reasoning (you could have me as null and still do this), you walked away. I’m not expecting you to have me sorted if you haven’t had a chance to read through my posts, but at the end of the day that’s your responsibility and not mine.

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

I think the number of games where I've found pooky to do anything game advancing that's not just pushing a scumread he's come to as a result of whatever his process is could prob be counted on one hand that's missing all the fingers

I don't find it townie, but I also don't find it scummy. I just find it to be pooky

(yes, I'm aware that meta is influencing this, but I know pooky ~well compared to most of this PL and hey, I'm human)

I don’t agree with your meta take on Pooky. But weren’t you just saying that you don’t rely on meta? Like if a player isn’t doing anything game advancing, shouldn’t you be skeptical? You’re giving Pooky a pass because you think they play erratically and quirky in a way you don’t fully understand. And that’s totally fine btw I don’t think I’m offended by that. But the reasoning that they actually expressed for voting seems just so superficial and vague that it should raise some suspicion. It’s why they were voted by multiple players immediately after. I agree with the immediate reactions.

[Andresvmb]

right, so who are the 5?

CSF, Frog, fire (they’ve now gone back on it), Bell (also have largely retracted their SR), VPB. Off the top of my head. Menalque to some extent too.

[Andresvmb]

wrt andres i feel like posts like 1543, 1559, and 1594 come off as more theory than solving in a way i think is scum indicative

his last two posts are pretty towny though

so i'd rather he follow up on his posts and go from there

Oh and Mistyx too.

[Andresvmb]

Yes Frog is annoying. What else is new.

[Andresvmb]

Have you sorted me better?

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not that I don’t want to provide answers. It’s that I don’t have the time to be constantly pointing to older posts of mine. I don’t wan that to be the standard because I can’t meet that and it’ll just annoy me.

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

this is a funny comment coming from someone who didnt even fucking post for the first week or whatever

sometimes i wonder why i even log on to this website

Yeah I didn’t post. You did, and the posts weren’t great. I think the difference is obvious. And I missed the start of the game, and then actually did post.

If you want to just be confrontation for the sake of being confrontational, then go for it.

[Andresvmb]

^confrontational for the sake of being confrontational*

[Andresvmb]

In the early going, did Pooky did anything that you felt was game advancing? Like seriously. The post I highlighted is Pooky giving a complete bullshit reason to vote someone (they “feel like they picked a red PM”), and then proceeding to throw out a few half-assed accusations at players (like Morning Tweet). Did you find any of that Townie?

this is a funny comment coming from someone who didnt even fucking post for the first week or whatever

sometimes i wonder why i even log on to this website

Yeah I didn’t post. You did, and the posts weren’t great. I think the difference is obvious. And I missed the start of the game, and then actually did post.

If you want to just be confrontation for the sake of being confrontational, then go for it.

maybe when you sign up for a game you have a commitment to read the

entire fucking game

Yeah, how about we keep our interactions at a minimum? You don’t seem to like me as a player so perhaps best to avoid each other. Like this accusation thrown at me given how I try to play seems heavy handed.

So what should I do? Not post until I’ve read every line? Post incomplete thoughts when I can so that I can get bashed for not reading the entire game? Or just stop playing entirely? What would you like for me to do?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah look my motivation here has declined significantly.

I’m a Simple Doctor. I made a crumb in 1891 that really went over everyone’s head which means it was just poor. That’s why I kept asking for my posts to be read in more detail after a certain point. So I’ll stop being cryptic about it.

I… don’t think I will contribute a whole lot more this game outside of some basic votes and keeping track of arguments and reading when I have some time.

[Andresvmb]

148 - Interestingly enough, I really don’t like this response from VPB. What does it matter when was the last time you rolled Scum? Like why do you feel self-conscious enough that you decide to actively state when you last rolled Scum? It’s irrelevant to your chances of being Scum in this game. The reflex to answer in this way feels like a bad sign.

Are you actually reading the game though? Frog stated I haven't been scum in awhile, and I pointed out that's not accurate. How the fuck do you walk away from that and say I'm being self-conscious?

How do I not walk away from you responding to the attack that relies on a logical fallacy by providing an appeasing response instead of bashing the logic while saying you’re being self-conscious? And I haven’t read whatever else you’re referencing here so yeah, not sure how I’m supposed to factor that in. I also didn’t think the initial reaction was silly. Since, you know, I had the same reaction.

This is some bullshit. You think I should attack Frog, who I townread, because he has bad logic rather than answer his question? How is that being productive?

Like, yeah Frog says wild things I don't agree with, but if I'm townreading him it ends up being a huge distraction to just argue pedantic points about it rather than answer his question and try to get him to a point where he stops tunneling for bad reasons. I know for a fact there isn't actually anything to see there, so helping him arrive at that conclusion is going to be a way more town-positive outcome than me having a shit throwing fight with him.

Look at the big fight between you two I'm having to read now. I think it's pretty much bullshit that you see this as scum indicative of me. Despite claims to the contrary, I actually think you're the one who entered the game trying to pump up frog on some nonsense about me, and you're kind of bitter it backfired on you.

Yeah whatever VPB you’re wrong about my alignment and I perhaps misread the intention behind a post of yours. I’m sorry you think that’s bullshit. I didn’t know I couldn’t be wrong, but Frog can be because they’re more “obviously Town” or something.

[Andresvmb]

And how did I pump up Frog on anything? I agreed with their take in the early game. I clearly stated that I hadn’t finished reading. I just revealed what I was thinking when I was thinking it. Have I ever come across this game as trying to appeal to Frog to do my dirty work for me or something? Like that doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, what's your read on VP?

I’ll stop commenting on anyone’s alignment until I’ve finished reading, because clearly why do it if I’m just going to get bashed for it.

If you want my honest crude take - I think VPB is genuinely offended that I’m misreading them, and is probably Town. I don’t think they would be so insistent about it otherwise. But yeah probably an irrelevant take since you know I can’t have feelings about anyone if I don’t read every post.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah whatever VPB you’re wrong about my alignment and I perhaps misread the intention behind a post of yours. I’m sorry you think that’s bullshit. I didn’t know I couldn’t be wrong, but Frog can be because they’re more “obviously Town” or something.

Why are you being so woe is me? If you state some nonsense about me, I'm going to call it out. I don't see how you're a victim here.

As far as frogster, yeah, I expect your level of play and thinking to be more rigorous. Frogster kind of throws spaghetti at the wall and sees what sticks. A lot of his posts I skim at best. On yours I read every word because if you're town, I want to link up with you. This victim game just makes me more annoyed with you.

I’m not playing victim. I’m genuinely upset about Pooky’s post. They’re not attacking Menalque (who is OPENLY saying they won’t read everything), they’re not attacking Andante (who is openly saying they don’t have reads and are struggling to keep up), they’re not attacking Greeting (who is quoting really old posts and is in the process of catching up now), but they’re attacking me. How is that fair? They’re just upset because I spoke about their reasoning behind an early vote they made and now all of sudden I’m shit because I haven’t fully caught up? What a fucking annoying double standard.

[Andresvmb]

Ok I give up. I read 20 pages. This is taking too long, I can't keep my focus and will have to stick to what's happening right now. Sorry.

Like this is EXACTLY the problem I was having. But oh no, fuck Andres who actually is trying to read, because they made an argument I didn’t like. I was answering questions about my reactions in real time which obviously sucked a lot of time away from actually reading what was posted, and then I’m trying to stay on top of the latest set of posts while also reading back occasionally so that I don’t fall further behind, but nah fuck that guy for the one argument I didn’t like. You know, read everything if you’re going to play or fuck you. And what?! Like have any of you played more than one game around here? Is this the standard that the vast majority of players even hold themselves to? Be honest. Because I can tell you it isn’t.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: fire

[Andresvmb]

You realize I modded that game where andres was scum and most of his scumplay consisted of burying his head in the sand and praying not to be killed, right

This actually made me laugh.

[Andresvmb]

Okay both Andante and Greeting are alive so I don’t have to paraphrase the entirety of the PTs reads from catboi, but if that hasn’t happened yet I will get to it (I was preparing that post, and I think that’s important).

[Andresvmb]

After the conclusion of N1, I want to make this very clear so there’s no confusion:

Frogsterking is Scum

.

Frogsterking basically outted in the Bomb Expert PT to ensure catboi’s death. Greeting, Andante and I all submitted responses to the puzzle having arrived at the quick conclusion that the switch of catboi and I was the work of Scum to get catboi blown up, and that catboi was Town. Frogsterking delayed submitting their response, and started openly doubting catboi’s alignment while subsequently questioning Andante about their alignment. In response, catboi claimed their role, which was that they would be Mod Confirmed Town if they survived the process of defusing a Bomb. Even after that claim, Frogsterking continued to question catboi, and began trolling the thread. I stated my analysis in the thread (which I’m sure Greeting can confirm), that any Town player playing with a clear mind would immediately see that solving the bomb was the only reasonable conclusion, since catboi would be confirmed either way, and the information would not be lost in the PT. The upside of having a Confirmed Scum the next day, while having solved one bomb, not sufficient in my mind to offset the execution of a member of the Scum Team.

For those that were in the PT, it then became completely obvious that Frogsterking is Scum and that they were actively trying to confuse and annoy the players in the thread. They proposed that players claim as well earlier in the process (which I opposed, but ended up happening anyway), and completely refused to expand on any reads or engage with any arguments in good faith. In the collective view, it was because they didn’t want to give anything away.

Now that this is out of the way, I will summarize catboi’s and Andante’s reads and arguments in a separate post, so that you all can use them for your own purposes.

[Andresvmb]

I had prepared that post before the night ended to roughly summarize the events in the thread in the event I wouldn’t be around.

[Andresvmb]

Let’s make sure we don’t vote out Frogsterking yet until we’ve had the opportunity to heal players and set out strategy and finalize some reads.

[Andresvmb]

Obviously my vote is there in spirit but we don’t have to rush anything.

[Andresvmb]

They proposed that players claim as well earlier in the process

Wait, frogster tried to get everyone in the PT to claim?

Yes. Others can confirm obviously. And since everyone did claim, we might as well reveal those claims here btw.

[Andresvmb]

@VP

After you see my role flip shoot Andante, andres or Greeting

Whatever your flip, I don't see how andres wasn't scum saved by that fire wagon yesterday.

Also, this feels like a Scum Claim haha and I did say that I felt VPB would be Scum if they’re left alive. You have three players telling you Frog is outted Scum and you put this out?

I think we need to be extremely careful about VPB going forward.

[Andresvmb]

Like do you really think if Frog flips Scum, 1772 (or most of the other posts attacking me) is a distancing post? And if I wanted to create theater, do you really think I openly say I would limit my interactions with Frogsterking? I mean that’s a bit absurd.

[Andresvmb]

You have three players telling you Frog is outted Scum and you put this out?

check the vote count there, bud.

You think I'm giving you a free pass? Explain your vote on fire yesterday.

I was sheeping catboi. I was frustrated and felt catboi had a better handle on the game (and I had openly stated a TR there) and so voted with them.

I mean your skepticism of my slot is completely ridiculous. Frog was trying their very best to absolutely bury me. If they’re Scum, you even opening up the possibility that I’m aligned with them is nuts.

[Andresvmb]

You would have to absolutely bury your head in the sand to think that I would distance with Frog like that. With argument put forth in such bad faith. With the reactions I had. Just completely absurd. Like laughably bad. I would flame you forever if that was a genuine push and you ended up Town.

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha no. If Frog flips Scum, and you decide I need to be executed, you should absolutely expect that I will question your ability to reason properly about alignments in this game. And if you’re Town, it would be such an absurd disappointment. You can say whatever, and that’s fine, but it would be such a horrible conclusion that I would be astounded. There’s like no universe I endorse that level of gaslighting from a Partner.

[Andresvmb]

If Frog flips Scum, I’m never Scum. Just never the case. It would be sad if you thought that’s a sensible next step.

[Andresvmb]

Did you even look at the votes Frog put down yesterday? And the arguments? They were LOUDLY arguing for fire + Me as the Scum Team. Like what?!

[Andresvmb]

TMI?! You’re really not this bad. I think this is quite something.

[Andresvmb]

Did you even look at the votes Frog put down yesterday? And the arguments? They were LOUDLY arguing for fire + Me as the Scum Team. Like what?!

Yeah, long before that and for most of the game, he was arguing I was scum. I could rightly see arguing with frog would be a shitfest that was pointless. You however engage in some endlessly useless arguing...so yeah, not out of the realm of theater at all. I don't think anything about your fighting was unfakeable

Sure.

[Andresvmb]

We still don’t know what resulted in there being no NK right?

I protected Pooky. I feel like I have to reveal this only because I think it makes them less likely to be Scum. If they have an ability though, then the shot went elsewhere and there’s no reason to rely on this information at all.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: Bell
HEAL: GuiltyLion
HEAL: Menalque

[Andresvmb]

My current reads (update):

town: Andante, Greeting, Andres, GL, Bell, CSF, Ceph, VP Baltar, enchant

null town: pooky
null for lack of engagement with them: Strange, mala, dwlee

good odds of scum: Titus

scum: misty, frog

***

pedit: appreciate the thought, Andres, but I was an expert last night and am therefore ineligible

Oh yeah, well that just won’t count. I thought I had that right.

[Andresvmb]

I don't see a problem with their role claim.
For scum it's a relatively broken, bullshit ability.
For town, it's meh to all right. It has more flexibility and requires more imagination for town than scum.

Bell, they’re Scum. I don’t think you need to entertain this too hard. Frog claimed macho cop in the PT yesterday. There’s no reason to believe this claim is more serious than that. It’s a misdirection, and the amount of discussion around it is kind of funny, particularly since they’re definitely the execution. You have 3 hard votes in that direction that will always end up there and will scream for that execution every time. Clearly a lot of players don’t trust me, but surely you don’t think Andante, Greeting and I are all part of the Scum Team together. And if we were, then I never have to be swapped into that PT to make myself look even more suspicious. There’s just no need. catboi could have been blown up without any interference from a role or me. So it’s an obvious misdirection if you think about it for a minute.

I suggest you spend more time thinking about who could be Scum with Frog. catboi made the point that the Scum Team probably prepared for the eventuality that Frog would be flipped, and are probably distancing (and may not have even voted to Heal Frog). I would keep that in mind.

[Andresvmb]

I'm inclined to agree with whoever said that frog!scum is

probably

hard clearing for the rest of that hood, at least for a while, and frog!scum seems very likely -- my explanation for why he didn't just give wrong info is refuge in audacity I guess? maybe the original plan was for andres to take the fall for catboi dying, and then we'd flip him today, but andres towning it up in there meant that he had to rethink? idk, what was the timing on frogs behaviour @greeting, andres, andante

***

My current reads:

town: Andante, Greeting, Andres, GL, Bell, CSF, Ceph

null: VP Baltar

null for lack of engagement with them: Strange, Enchant, mala, dwlee

good odds of scum: Titus, pooky

scum: misty, frog

***

pedit: I know, Enchant, that was the reason for the what the fuck

I came into the thread with a post about how I was not about to engage in a back and forth with Frog, wasn’t in the right headspace for that kind of exchange, couldn’t explain my swap more than one conducted to benefit Scum, and that catboi was Town and needed to be saved. So I worked to ensure that we could follow the rules quickly and solve the bomb, and I expressed my frustration about being mis-executed in this game potentially since I literally never have been voted out outside of Endgame I believe ever in 25+ games here.

[Andresvmb]

Frog then came in and said that they believed my swap was clearly meant to drive us apart, and started attacking other players in the PT. I think it became obvious Frog was Scum once they started posting a POE with everyone’s name on it, started asking who their Partners would theoretically be (instead of trying to solve), among other troll posts.

[Andresvmb]

They also repeatedly tried to provoke catboi who had to keep telling Andante to stop paying any mind to Frog’s posts, and encouraged Greeting not to defend Frog (Greeting was giving Frog the benefit of the doubt until it was absolutely impossible to ignore just how anti-Town Frog’s behavior was).

[Andresvmb]

Hell, I even said I couldn’t believe Scum would be so over the top D1, which is why I gave them a pass, but clearly felt their interactions with me had been in bad faith.

[Andresvmb]

It's kind of wild to me that yall claimed in the bomb PT. If this was Frogster's idea, did someone second it? Anyone support that, and if so what was their reason?

I was firmly against it.

The reason it happened was because Frog made a claim where their role wasn’t in their claim name. They claimed Dats Inc. Contingency Planner, but said the role meant they were a backup Cop. If you look at fire’s flip, you’ll notice that their actual role is in the name. So I and catboi both immediately argued that it was a slip. Greeting clarified that it couldn’t be, because they had something similar going on, and claimed.

[Andresvmb]

Andante claimed because their role related to one of the arguments I was having with them about how the swap could have taken place. I concluded that it had to have been the work of Scum, because I didn’t feel like a Town player would have swapped catboi out for anyone else (especially not me), and swapping the Defuser with no knowledge of who they were (for say, a random player) didn’t seem like the action of Town. You could argue I swapped myself out as Defuser (if you believe I’m Town), but I never pick catboi. Had I had the opportunity to do so but have to have picked a random player, I don’t think I would have done it, but regardless, I don’t have that ability. But that’s why.

[Andresvmb]

In conclusion, it happened organically, but Frog argued for it, and I countered that it was way too early in the game for that, and that it just wasn’t sensible or needed.

[Andresvmb]

Frog also began the discussion (before they were outted) about how VPB had to be Scum, and was sent to score another NK for the Scum Team.

Just timeline wise, Frog asked for claims trying to argue that they TR everyone first, and then after some roles were revealed organically, started attacking others (after being cornered by catboi and Andante). For what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

[Andresvmb]

Andante tried repeatedly to pressure Frog to submit an answer so that catboi could be saved, arguing forcefully that the consensus was so strongly that catboi was Town that we had a duty to save them. Frog pushed that back by arguing that a consensus read didn’t have to be wrong, and they trusted themselves more (while making fun of Andante’s argument and accusing them of falling for a logical fallacy).

I’ll put it this way. Andante is never Scum. That’s a read I would absolutely bet the game on.

[Andresvmb]

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

Let's assume you are town, why do you think there was such a frenzy for the fire wagon yesterday as soon as your wagon took off a little bit?

I am Town. I claimed Doctor and there was no NK yesterday. Do you think the Scum held back from firing? Has anyone stepped forward to explain in a different way why there was no extra kill? Like I really can’t make this easier for you.

Scum sometimes push alternative wagons, and after my claim (and some clear resistance from multiple players against executing me), they probably felt they needed to push elsewhere. Frog still tried to bury me by ridiculing my claim. But they couldn’t get traction so they pushed fire relying on a flawed argument from catboi who was clearly trying their best and had a reasonable argument.

Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

I think catboi made so many reasonable arguments (such as the fact that they didn’t have to make themselves Defuser as Scum after pushing a mis-execution of Town and opening themselves up for getting blown up), and Frog buried their head so hard in the sand still, even after their claim, that I just can’t for the life of me understand why everyone isn’t just trying to build a world with Frog Scum now, and totally ignoring them.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know if all of catboi’s reads have been expressed into this thread, but they felt that Bell had to be Town because despite being wrong about Lukewarm, they aren’t usually that aggressive in pushing an execution as Scum. Apparently Bell is not a very confident Scum player, and pushing a Townie like that wouldn’t be something that catboi would have expected from them. There might have been some growth in their Scum game, but clearly there wasn’t as much aggression in Shakespeare U-Pick from them, so this would deviate from that. catboi also argued that Bell being upset at Frogsterking trying to heal Enchant was more in like with a Town thought process given how inconsequential one Heal vote can be. It was probably just a level of concern about the game and the outcome of it that was difficult to fake as Scum. 488 and 605 are also probably not how Bell would have addressed a Partner. 944, 946, 948 and 951 also probably point to Bell not being partnered with Frog under most circumstances.

[Andresvmb]

That was catboi’s general thought process there. It appears most folks agree since they’re the top Expert vote getter, but at least expressing the views of a confirmed Town player could be helpful in the future.

[Andresvmb]

Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.

Eh, not really what I asked you. I asked you to explain your vote on fire, as in what did you find scummy? And you basically said "well catboi wanted it and I trusted him," which of course looks to me like you're putting it on a dead player.

It definitely is what it is. What I am trying to assess is whether you found fire scummy or just wanted to save yourself, which doesn't even necessarily make you scum.

The biggest thing that points to you being scum is the sheer speed that people powered that wagon through based on catbois case. I was there and didn't even have time to fully read his case before people ended it!

As far as the lack of NK, I have no idea, but in your world pooky should be lock town, yeah?

I did explain my vote on fire. I told you already I was sheeping catboi’s case. I didn’t care to save myself nearly as much as you think. I claimed because I got annoyed. There was a lot of bullshit being thrown my way, and it’s clear a lot of folks didn’t even want to let me finish reading the damn game before attacking my views.

I don’t care what you make of the speed of the wagon, I really don’t. You’re blaming me for all of the votes that followed catboi’s case, and that’s just unfair. Cephrir thought I was the hammer, and instead of waiting for a VC, both Frog and Menalque decided to plop votes down. Even after you had asked for calm (which I’m pretty sure happened after my vote). And Frog is outted as Scum. The fact that you’re grilling me like this but completely ignoring how the sequence actually occurred is baffling. And you’re continuing to argue that I’m aligned with Frog. And I have to tell you - it is the worst conclusion I have ever seen. Even when I wasn’t active, Frog was screaming for my head based on my supposed ability to help the Scum Team solve the game mechanically. Why in the world would my Partner ever do that? And one of the attacks was clearly shown to be in bad faith in real time (about how I only started reading in response to their pressure), and yet, you still think it’s possible we’ve been attacking each other like this this game. I’m honestly shocked you’re entertaining this.

[Andresvmb]

lol sharing catboi's reads... I just gave the reads list so far

Yeah but I think sharing the rationale is helpful too. Because catboi can’t be expected to have everything right. So maybe sharing the reasons is helpful. Like I wouldn’t just sheep a strong player all the time, but certainly if their reasoning was solid I would trust it.

[Andresvmb]

I need to work I’ll be back later. I will try and continue to investigate the PT and reveal thinking I believe is Town-positive. Andante I think we should share catboi’s view on Cephrir in more detail, because we disagreed there, and some of the arguments that catboi shared against DW (and how some of their fighting around 530 through 661 read absolutely theatrical). catboi felt really strongly DW should be flipped after Frogsterking, for what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

I’m around Page 9 of the PT trying to read through and communicate what happened. I can get back to it later. I am assuming sharing details of the length of the PT isn’t against the rules but @Datisi you can let me know.

[Andresvmb]

Also, can I have the honor of hammering Frog? I really want to do it.

[Andresvmb]

i want to avenge catboi tho :<

I protected you. You owe me.

[Andresvmb]

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

Could've just been giving up and taking down catboi before frog's sick plays made you not need to.

Idk if I buy your role and fire's together given scum already have like 3/4 of a nightkill.

The Scum could have withheld using their Night Kill. That certainly would explain why there wasn’t one. I wouldn’t be totally surprised if they did - there’s no reason for them to necessarily use it N1, and they could have saved it for tonight. Having said that, NKs for Scum are clearly a scarce resource, so my modifier clearly makes it very difficult with all the claims that have been thrown around for me to actually save a player. Which kind of sucks to be honest. But you really have no real reason to argue that my role is impossible next to a 1-shot Bodyguard. Like I don’t get why that’s super hard to believe.

[Andresvmb]

And you’re continuing to argue that I’m aligned with Frog. And I have to tell you - it is the worst conclusion I have ever seen.

*gestures broadly at Frogster's iso

It hurts man.

I’m not though what. I pointed specifically to the bad faith post they made against me. And really, all you have to do is go look. Like you can just search their ISO for their arguments against my slot and easily find them.

[Andresvmb]

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

Could've just been giving up and taking down catboi before frog's sick plays made you not need to.

Idk if I buy your role and fire's together given scum already have like 3/4 of a nightkill.

Just no haha if Frog flips Scum, I never have to “just give up”. Like that’s not an intelligent play. You’re arguing I saw that my Scum buddy Frog was voted in as Expert, but then I absolutely had to swap myself in instead of catboi so that they could get nominated and exploded. But unless you’re arguing that I have a role that specifically forces me to swap myself with someone else, I never do that. We could have simply exploded a different Town player (someone perhaps not as obviously Town as catboi), and then not just out a member of the Team by having them act like a complete idiot by ignoring an IC claim and blowing that player up.

Like I never have to be swapped in there as Scum, if Frog is Scum, unless I have a desperate need to blow catboi up and why?! They were defending me! It just doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

fireisredsir has been executed day 1. they were a

DATS Inc. 1-shot bulletproof bodyguard

.

Spoiler:

welcome,

fireisredsir

! you are a

DATS Inc. 1-shot bulletproof bodyguard

, a part of this game's uninformed majority.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night and you will be killed in their place. additionally, you are protected against the first kill that is supposed to kill you, including kills redirected to you. both of these abilities do

not

protect against bomb explosions.

win conditions:

~ you win when all GB Inc. infiltrators are dead and at least one DATS Inc. employee is alive.
~ alternatively, you win when DATS Inc. employees act as successful bomb defusers 8 times.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

bomb experts are:

• Andante, Greeting, catboi, and Frogsterking [group 1]
  
• Menalque, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever, and Cephrir [group 2]

twilight 1 starts now and ends in

(expired on 2022-03-29 20:30:00)

.

as they haven't posted in the last 24 hours, Dwlee99 has to respond to the twilightstart pm.

Uhm, yeah they were a 1-Shot Bodyguard. They were also Bulletproof.

[Andresvmb]

Cause being wrong on Fire when sheeping Bell screaming into the void makes me scum

But being right on Frogs on a push

I started and formulated

makes me scum. Fucking hell

We haven't even heard the rationale yet. You're jumping to conclusions

Did you read what Andres posted? It's apparently that my posts with frogs are "theatrical" when it's me burying them and no one listening

To be fair, catboi argued that. Those are not my own original thoughts.

[Andresvmb]

They were 1-Shot Bulletproof.

Bodyguard was infinity.

Yeah I see that. I’m not trying to act dumb. The point though remains. There’s no reason why there can’t be a Simple Doctor next to a Bodyguard which really doesn’t do much at all. It would just re-direct the shot to themselves. It’s a game with 19 players and I outted my role like first and you haven’t seen a direct counterclaim yet my role is all of a sudden hard to believe. I just don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

Are we done healing players today?

[Andresvmb]

catboi was not comfortable removing StrangeMatter from the POE ever due to 1629, which they absolutely hated.

[Andresvmb]

They argued it was difficult not to see that post as not coming from someone with an informed mindset.

[Andresvmb]

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

Could've just been giving up and taking down catboi before frog's sick plays made you not need to.

Idk if I buy your role and fire's together given scum already have like 3/4 of a nightkill.

Just no haha if Frog flips Scum, I never have to “just give up”. Like that’s not an intelligent play. You’re arguing I saw that my Scum buddy Frog was voted in as Expert, but then I absolutely had to swap myself in instead of catboi so that they could get nominated and exploded. But unless you’re arguing that I have a role that specifically forces me to swap myself with someone else, I never do that. We could have simply exploded a different Town player (someone perhaps not as obviously Town as catboi), and then not just out a member of the Team by having them act like a complete idiot by ignoring an IC claim and blowing that player up.

Like I never have to be swapped in there as Scum, if Frog is Scum, unless I have a desperate need to blow catboi up and why?! They were defending me! It just doesn’t make sense.

I'm not arguing any of this - I think frog is flipping town as I have said multiple times

If he doesn't, that changes things

I can’t imagine a world where Frog flips Town. I have seen bad Town play. This isn’t it. This is active sabotage. It’s the sort of play that I find so offensive if it were coming from Town that I couldn’t possibly take them seriously ever again. It’s that sort of thing. Like I would hard ignore them forever if they were Town here and acting this way. Seriously no reason to take any of their views seriously ever if this is the sort of Town play that can be expected from them. It’s so devoid of reason, it cannot be even remotely thought of as occurring in good faith. Their posts in the Bomb Expert PT are so beyond the pale, I can’t see them ever flipping Town. If they do, it’ll be so hard to swallow for me.

[Andresvmb]

catboi had mixed feelings about Menalque (thought their interactions with me looked like Town probing, but didn’t like the speed of the hammer). Didn’t see any clearing interactions with Frog. Underscored that they could be looking down on their Scum game a bit after PYP. For the record, I do feel somewhat positive about Menalque overall, but agree with the comment on the hammer not being a great look. Having said that, I don’t think the execution would have landed anywhere else, so I don’t know that I can fault Menalque too much for that.

[Andresvmb]

catboi had mixed feelings about Menalque (thought their interactions with me looked like Town probing, but didn’t like the speed of the hammer). Didn’t see any clearing interactions with Frog. Underscored that they could be looking down on their Scum game a bit after PYP. For the record, I do feel somewhat positive about Menalque overall, but agree with the comment on the hammer not being a great look. Having said that, I don’t think the execution would have landed anywhere else, so I don’t know that I can fault Menalque too much for that.

Mena is town

I did mistakenly voted to Heal them, so I think you know how I’m looking at the slot.

[Andresvmb]

And since The Praetorian is Koba (I was asked about this before but didn’t actually realize that until N1), catboi felt 292 and the successor’s lurking just meant the slot should always be flipped.

[Andresvmb]

catboi also summarized some of the interactions between Pooky and Frog as hard to see coming from Scum Partners. Namely, 248, 443, 1206, 1263. catboi was of the view that they look more like posts where Frog is trying to simply tie themselves to Pooky following a Scum flip, but not partnery behavior. Overall, it was driven by a perception that Frog would be more cautious with their distancing. Having said that, 930 and 939 could be inane Scum banter, but it didn’t seem like catboi leaned negatively overall and dismissed that somewhat.

[Andresvmb]

Who is koba!slot again? Mala?

Yeah.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll wait for Titus to attempt a catch up. But after that, oh that sweet hammer is coming.

[Andresvmb]

So {MalaKittens, StrangeMatter} basically always need to die in this game. DW was strongly SR in our PT, and despite DW being upset at the reasons, that’s probably reasonable enough. Andante feels really strongly about Mistyx [Morning Tweet], and I 100% trust Andante so that’s one other slot I would blow up.

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: VP Baltar

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’m good. Titus can keep sharing content tomorrow I’m sure they’ll still be around.

VOTE: FROGSTERKING



DIE.

[Andresvmb]

oh, and lastly that despite frog's (probable) relative insanity, his flipping town does mean that all of GL/andres/andante should be looked at again, and what frog said about the PT does actually need to be weighed

Uh no it doesn’t. catboi flipped Town IC, just like they claimed, and Frog could have saved them on their own. There’s literally no reason anyone should care about any one of Frog’s positions. Having said that, I’m not sure I’m actually succeeding protecting anyone (there’s too many PRs for the Scum not to shoot correctly if they really want to), but I really would have expected the Scum to shoot by now unless VPB is Scum and trying to defuse bombs is better for them.

[Andresvmb]

like game this out

if our policy is to blow up VPB if he gets a bomb

then scum will always make VPB the defuser if VPB is town

so when that happens booom time

and voila we solve the VPB issue without losing a lim

there's literally no point to divert and get paranoid of VPB atp - we're just playing into the scum wifom.

This assumes the Scum don’t have a role similar to Frog’s where they can ensure a particular bomb is defused. It’s a mechanical possibility, if perhaps somewhat implausible.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve read the posts today but I think I want to go back to my early set of reads before Frog practically derailed a few days. I also would want to do more research on the early part of the game. I think I’ll have some more time tonight.

And I don’t care to be executed in this game. Frog sapped all of my enthusiasm here and I don’t feel like trying super hard. Like it’s hard for someone in my position not to be absolutely convinced Frog is Scum when it was clear that the correct decision regardless of catboi’s alignment was to save them and they refused.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t have a progression on fire btw because I didn’t have a firm read there and was sheeping a TR. But yeah like I said it’s whatever.

[Andresvmb]

I’m trying to think if Pooky’s logic is solid enough not to want to execute VPB. I guess it’s probably better to execute a player we actually SR.

[Andresvmb]

I protected Bell. I trusted catboi’s analysis basically.

[Andresvmb]

Who did you protect last night and why?

Andres obviously fakeclaiming to bait kill.

But i didn't tell you that.

I will quote this back to you at the end of the game, particularly if I’ve actually stopped an NK.

Since the Scum can’t accumulate kills, I’m not sure I understand exactly why they would withhold shooting anyone unless they just didn’t need to.

[Andresvmb]

And the only scenario they don’t need to is if VPB is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I do think it would be kind of broken if the Scum could push through a Defuse though. So maybe there’s not a whole lot of reason to worry about VPB (or any future Defuser) until it’s obvious that we need to blow everyone up because we can’t just lose through that mechanic.

[Andresvmb]

blowing up VPB town is a lot better than limming VPB town

I’m worried about a situation where we might want to do so, but are overruled mechanically by a Scum that’s been sent as an Expert. But like I said, I think that’s probably not realistic.

[Andresvmb]

There really isn’t a reason for the Scum to have withheld shooting last night. I can’t think of a good reason. N1 maybe, but yesterday? The game feels like it’s headed in a wrong direction so why not take advantage to blow up a Town leader? I’m not sure I understand.

[Andresvmb]

I protected Bell. I trusted catboi’s analysis basically.

The fuck. Nobody kills Bell.

You do realize that no one died last night? I’m all for inducing paranoia amongst the Town in ways that make sense, but giving up on actually shooting people at night seems kind of silly. Like as Scum, if VPB is Scum assume and they’re getting closer to winning by defusing, you don’t put all of your eggs in that basket and just stop playing. So I would totally still shoot players at night. Meh I don’t know.

[Andresvmb]

I protected Bell. I trusted catboi’s analysis basically.

Who are your town reads? I find this a weird protect since Bell was main driver on the fire wagon and would have been unlikely to ever be killed.

{Andante, Greeting, Bell} are probably the only solid TRs I have.

[Andresvmb]

Goddamn, enchant, give some reads or something.

On who you want my mind.

Is your mind not already on somebody, because that’s basic scum hunting 101.

I have doubt that Doctor claim yoloclaims unneedly to bait bullet in face.
I have doubt that Doctor exist with infinity Bodyguard, they could just protect each other.


So either Andres hiding something or plainly not Doctor.

I didn’t claim unnecessarily. You do realize that right?

[Andresvmb]

Greeting defended Frog instinctively in the PT and were shamed for it. There’s no world where they’re Scum. They never needed to do that and could have kept feeding the paranoia around Frog. I TR Andante for their contributions and focus on certain players. And I am in fact trusting catboi’s analysis on Bell.

I am being pushed by too many players and my claim doubted too widely for me to have anyone else as solidly Town. For the record.

[Andresvmb]

I protected Bell. I trusted catboi’s analysis basically.

Who are your town reads? I find this a weird protect since Bell was main driver on the fire wagon and would have been unlikely to ever be killed.

{Andante, Greeting, Bell} are probably the only solid TRs I have.

And out of that group, you thought Bell was most likely to be shot?

It’s the only player that made sense for me to protect out of that group mechanically.

[Andresvmb]

It’s the only player that made sense for me to protect out of that group mechanically.

I'm not following what you mean mechanically?

I have a modifier remember?

[Andresvmb]

I am being pushed by too many players and my claim doubted too widely for me to have anyone else as solidly Town. For the record.

Do you think you're being unfairly sussed?

I think that Frog’s push of my slot was in extreme bad faith. I think it was ridiculous, and it was unfounded. I continue to feel that some of the arguments against me make no sense. And I think you’re not putting yourself in my shoes when you see attacks like the one conducted by Frog and not think that maybe I think that was absurdly aggravating and took a lot out of me.

[Andresvmb]

I am being pushed by too many players and my claim doubted too widely for me to have anyone else as solidly Town. For the record.

Do you think you're being unfairly sussed?

I think that Frog’s push of my slot was in extreme bad faith. I think it was ridiculous, and it was unfounded. I continue to feel that some of the arguments against me make no sense. And I think you’re not putting yourself in my shoes when you see attacks like the one conducted by Frog and not think that maybe I think that was absurdly aggravating and took a lot out of me.

I don't care about frog, fwiw. I'd still vote him 100/100 times in that situation.

So can you point me to the post where you’ve detailed why you SR me exactly? I can find it later but then you would have to wait on a response later.

[Andresvmb]

It’s the only player that made sense for me to protect out of that group mechanically.

I'm not following what you mean mechanically?

I have a modifier remember?

Hmm, ok. I forgot yall went mass insanity and full claimed because frog told you to.

My claim was during the day not in the PT. And I already said that I was against claiming in there.

[Andresvmb]

Hey Andres, you're simple doc right? who have you been saving?

N1 - Pooky, N2 - Bell.

[Andresvmb]

wait, is the frog lim being debated? lol frog 1000% had to go... Andres was in that pt too...

Andres is only defending it to himself....no clue why

Because Frog pushed two players D1 most loudly - fire and I. That’s why.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think we should rush today.

[Andresvmb]

Just kill Titus after I flip please. They’re trying to argue against my slot because there’s probably enough support there somewhere if you squint hard enough not to potentially execute MalaKittens I presume.

[Andresvmb]

Greeting defended Frog instinctively in the PT and were shamed for it. There’s no world where they’re Scum. They never needed to do that and could have kept feeding the paranoia around Frog. I TR Andante for their contributions and focus on certain players. And I am in fact trusting catboi’s analysis on Bell.

I am being pushed by too many players and my claim doubted too widely for me to have anyone else as solidly Town. For the record.

This is a load of crap. Anyone can guess if not sort a fair push on them.

He CCs flipped town. He cut day short when I was catching up to prevent me from obvtowning.

Like the idea that I have “CC’ed” flipped Town is wrong and is a bit baffling.

[Andresvmb]

Pretty reaction on 2 votes.

Is this how you go about catching Scum? Serious question.

[Andresvmb]

Like Titus is trying to argue that they had all these thoughts towards the end of yesterday that I cut off, but… where are they? They have come in to comment on what’s been happening lately (3274 is a good example), and they are complaining that I cut them off from putting forth valuable content, but where is that content? They’re still around, no one died during the night, so this is at worst an extension of yesterday. Nobody is stopping them from contributing, so where are these valuable insights? That’s the load of crap.

[Andresvmb]

Just kill Titus after I flip please. They’re trying to argue against my slot because there’s probably enough support there somewhere if you squint hard enough not to potentially execute MalaKittens I presume.

dude what

no one serious is even considering voting you right now. can we get some scumhunting from you instead of the constant reactivity

I’ll play however I want thanks.

[Andresvmb]

Here's what I suspect. Andres was put in to ensure Catboi died and scum played up and pushed Frog's buttons to implode. That nets dead obvtown a miselimination and heat off Andres for a necessary death.

This is, to put it bluntly, completely absurd.

Frogsterking decided to go full anti-Town because they suspected catboi and pretty much everyone else in the PT. I don’t have to be switched into the PT for Frog to act in the way that they did. And even if you think that the switch was needed to guarantee that, why don’t you ask the other members of the PT whether I acted in a way that would have triggered Frog, or pushed them towards the wrong conclusion? You’re making assumptions to build a case against me, when instead you could, you know, ask questions and get responses so that you don’t end up making the flimsiest case ever.

I give you more credit than this, so I’ll just slot you as Scum and move on.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: MalaKittens

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: VPBaltar

[Andresvmb]

HEAL: StrangeMatter