Mini Normal 2041 [Game Over]

[DVa]

A fucking gunsmith claimed a no result on you and you won't deny being ascetic

What other fucking conceivable use is there to your claim if you're ascetic

Like, if you're not even entertaining the notion that A50 MIGHT be town, then sure, WIFOM the entire fucking dayphase away

But town ascetics confirm they're town ascetics 100% of the fucking time here, and town "anything else" confirms they're not town ascetics. no one lets the conversation reach this point of absurdity unless they are hedging because they wanted A50 to really believe he was roleblocked

there is no other conceivable use of an ascetic role other than what is going on RIGHT NOW

you're also saying there's nothing else that A50 has done that is townie, but you are making 0 analysis of the plausibility of his progression over the last two days. He's had multiple significant 1v1s and you think it's all just a show? then give some examples of things that seem fake

as for Oka, sure, keep doing your thing, whatever

you think you can shade tchill and those that are wagoning tchill at the exact same time with your meta analysis

what are you even talking about here?

[DVa]

Yes, I thought
A) Tchill was scummy
and
B) People saying Tchill wasn't scummy were misrepresenting things

So my first thought was that people misrepresenting his meta (i.e. DrD and PP) were doing so for scummy reasons

but PP shook my scumread with his response to my case on him, and DrD just isn't overwhelmingly scummy

and PP at least sometimes has stronger reads, when he's town, so he would be a worse slot to miss on

Tchill was safer because even when he's town his reads are awful

Of course the entire discussion around Tchill was weird, because Tchill was playing like horseshit but people were defending him. So yes, one of the people defending him now are more likely to have been white knighting him.

I had to at some point make a bet yesterday on whether Tchill was scum or his whiteknighters were scum, and since Tchill wasn't playing, I bet on him. I would make the same choice (barring his alignment being modconfirmed) any day.

[DVa]

Ugh whatever I'm not ascetic

OK, so now we have three possibilities remaining:
A50 is scum and lying about targeting you (highly unlikely imo, but not impossible if he has started channeling certain other weird scum players)
A50 was in fact roleblocked (possible), of either alignment, but more likely town
You are lying and are scum ascetic (pretty possible)

Right now there are three people you can conceivably convince me are better wagons than you:
PP
DrD
Sephiroth

Which of those three is a better wagon than you if you're town?

[DVa]

This might actually be very close to auto-win on mass-claim

the 'roleblocker' fucks it up a little though. definitely not a mechanical auto-win. but should get us very close

And if I've figured it out, scum might have too.

And at this point there's a risk that lack of massclaim might result in fucked night actions too though, due to certain people being dumb with their hypoclaims

I'm going to have to sleep on this

No one claim more shit

[DVa]

Yeah something can't be right, there can't be 6 TPRs in a 13p game, even with scum roleblocker

unless some of them are heavily gated?

[DVa]

I'm thinking optimal play is for the masons to choose both the lynch and the vig shot, if we have a vig.

That might be better than mass claim given the roleblocker.

If Mew is town, I think I understand his frustration with me, but he needs to understand that we are dealing with two possible scenarios, one in which there is a vig, and one in which there is not.

If there is a vig, then a mass claim may very well indeed be optimal play, since that would also imply a doc save.

If there is not a vig, then a mass claim would not be optimal.

This creates a conundrum and I think masons choosing lynch and shot is the closest we get to a solve.

[DVa]

Yeah I'm not sure we can get consensus on that even if I think it might be optimal play here, particularly because despite having 6 implied tprs we nonetheless have 0 hard confirms, and the numbers there are really concerning because that's basically too many for all of them to be real. It's also concerning because we now have 3 hard claims and 3 really obvious softs, and the scum already know at least some of which are real and which are not.

But while I know I'm wrong on something, it's hard to tell what exactly I'm wrong on, and continuing to interrogate my different theories basically would force a mass claim so I'm struggling to figure out what we're actually supposed to do here. I don't want the vig to shoot a tpr, assuming the vig is both real and isn't heavily gated anyway. And at this point we might have to just accept we need to prioritize dayplay because with the scum roleblocker and the outed gunsmith our investigative abilities are probably fucked anyway

[DVa]

VOTE: DrD

Is it here or elsewhere koki?

[DVa]

Oka any thoughts on the early DrD wagon?

[DVa]

PenguinPower -- I've liked his reactions in real time but I also don't really agree with his reads so I don't really know. I think I need to exert some brainpower to make sense of Oka's wagon analysis case here but so far I honestly haven't

Mewtaph -- Mew actually responded to some of my points better than I thought, namely that I did in fact say that Nako should say whether she targeted him first before claiming ascetic. So Seph is right that at this point my argument against Mew is that I think he has a shitty reads list. That being said, having a shitty reads list is still a decent reason to vote someone. but idk, I can't think of the last time I argued with scum and I actually felt like I understood their perspective more than I did before I began arguing with them, so feeling nervous here rn.

Sephiroth -- There's a weird dynamic between Seph and Mew that makes me think there's one scum between the two but I don't know which, but right now, I would probably gamble Seph over Mew.

DrDolittle -- This is what I wanted at the start of today and this is what I want now even though I feel like my argument here is basically "just look at it". I probably need to actually case this if I want it to happen but this dayphase has frankly exhausted me.

I don't know if DrD's flip really helps Oka's Wagon analysis and Dr.D's flip doesn't really resolve most of the other issues with night actions but I also just feel like DrD isn't playing like he's town right now. This might not be the mechanically superior wagon but I think it might have the highest equity independently for me at this point

[DVa]

On the one hand, ow

On the other hand, my setup spec is easier to process now

I think this means A50 is probably locked. We do have the problem where he probably gets blocked while scum hunt for the doctor

@Seph, I'll see if I can find them

[DVa]

@Seph, as I said in my read list, I kinda prefer DrD. A big part of my push on Mew was related to how he reacted to the discussion of being a possible ascetic. I'm not sure having the shitty reads list in and of itself is enough for me to lynch him right now, although I didn't really like his predecessor either.

What I would say though is that right now I don't feel like either of you had organic responses to A50's 1v1 with me today. Like, it was such a wild case, made for such spiteful reasons, and it felt like neither of you really wanted to process it at a deeper level. So something seems off with both of you frankly.

In regard to Oka, I'll reread the scumgame again soon, but I guess I just have a hard time seeing how you start off naturally scumreading him.

But your questions are also "reevaluate highly active, proactive players." Like, I don't know how you look at this game and choose three of the most proactive and active players and call all three of them scum. Like, something seems really fucking off with your reads. It's not just calling me scum, Oka scum, and A50 scum individually. It's that your reads list is everyone who has been chatty and pushy this game. Like your theory is that the entire scum team is competing to be the top powerscum railroader. It just seems really fucking weird that you would both look at this game and come up with a list like that because it seems hard to imagine multiple towns imagining their entire scum block as being the people saying shit.

So yeah, frankly I think having a lynchpool of {Top Poster, Second Top Poster, Fourth Top Poster} strikes me as not very likely to come from a town POV. It feels like you want to case people who have said and done lots of things so you have more to work with and so you don't get accused of trying to push lurkers or so that you aren't coming off as opportunistic, which is to say that the readslist looks political and meant more to make you look like town than to find scum.

[DVa]

Koki, I guess maybe you could expand on why you accepted the mason fakeclaim?

[DVa]

Also what you're saying here is completely inconsistent with what you said about his slot in 1700 where you say he flips scum every time.

I mean, yeah, that is what I felt at the time, but as I mentioned, when he observed I'd actually said Nako should claim first, I realized one of the core parts of my read was actually false. I do still think his reads list is suspiciously bad, but I've actually also been thinking about how sure I am on Oka. Gut says he's town but I'm wondering whether it's actually reasonable to scumread him from a town perspective. Like, it's like I'm actually considering some of your arguments, and you're scumreading me because I'm actually thinking about it.

This is why I'm finding this argument with you kinda exhausting. But honestly this whole dayphase has been exhausting so idk

what's your read of DrD anyway? Like I know you're focused on Oka, you have mixed feelings on Mew, but last I heard you didn't have a strong read on DrBearAvi one way or the other?

[DVa]

oh hey ofhrz! Welcome :3

[DVa]

Congrats Jason, you're replacing into a slot that accepted a mason fakeclaim with a non-clear!

And somehow, you're still probably town. Fancy that

[DVa]

Summary:
Tchill got mislynched cause he refused to play day 1
BEF was the counter wagon and was the nightkill, so a lot of today has been speculation on whether it was a vig shot and we had a doc save or if scum did a wifomy kill
Almost50 claimed roleblocked gunsmith
Kokichi fakeclaimed mason with your slot d1 and your slot accepted, and then retracted today.

I think that's the main points

[DVa]

PP might win the d1 summary competition lol

[DVa]

So many gifs that aren't penguins!

[DVa]

I understand. Sometimes I wonder if I should post a gif if it has someone that isn't DVa in it. Every now and then, I'm like, maybe I should post a gif of Tracer. But then I never do. It just doesn't feel right.

[DVa]

for some reason I thought kokichi claimed at L2 not L1

[DVa]

I think your predecessor thought Sephiroth was possible scum on the Tchill wagon, I kinda agreed but I haven't really been using the d1 EoD wagon as the driving force for my reads today. I think that is a reason he was wagoned earlier, Mew was wagoned partly because of his interaction with my 1v1 with A50 earlier and also because some people didn't like his read list (I think this is why Koki was on his wagon although he didn't really explain deeply)

[DVa]

BEF was nightkilled as unclaimed d1 leading counter-wagon to town Tchill

[DVa]

please continue spamming gifs in the meantime thanks

I might take some time and recharge my power cells :3

[DVa]

We still don't know that they didn't, if scum bought the mason fakeclaim we could still be looking at a vig + doc save scenario. It could also be that A50 was JK'd by town and shot by scum. In fact it's almost more likely that joey or a50 was saved now than it was before, since before we had an issue with numbers.

Before we would have had to have masons + gunsmith + vig + doc/jk + maybe one more = too much power

Now we could have gunsmith + vig + doc/jk + maybe one more, which is way more within the realm of possibility tbh

[DVa]

Gamma is DrD scum? tell the truth of what you see and feel in your bones

[DVa]

DVa, do you have a read on Kokichi?

Aside from his mason fakeclaim, this isn't radically different than his town games, and his scum games he tends to be a lot more aggressive with reads. But with the mason fakeclaim, I can't tell how much he was playing around pocketing Joey (regardless of alignment). I would still lean town tho.

[DVa]

Maybe this is your chance to step up, Koki. Be the townie you were always meant to be.

[DVa]

Well let's see what you got bae

[DVa]

ok i'm with you so far

next step: a50 town?

[DVa]

VOTE: pp

Don't townread him. Since drd has a confirmed night action that's slightly more sortable although balance-wise there's no reason to assume he couldn't be scum jk. Idk feeling lost.

Pedit: I don't really get what you mean mew

[DVa]

So you think DrD is a scum roleblocker or jk?

[DVa]

Also why A50 over one of the masons?

this is embarassing but I thought he was scum and likely to make the kill on day end

I guess it is worth asking what about the flip made you change your read of a50 and why you wouldn't use the jk protectively... like why would you assume a50 would be the one to make the kill?

UNVOTE:

[DVa]

Tbh if we don't have vig after all then maybe drd just is scum roleblocker?

[DVa]

And DrD didn't crumb at all in any of his long catchup posts?

Idk, I don't get why Mew is doing weird associatives with me instead of pushing drd on his claim, but the claim does seem a bit suspect

[DVa]

Well you're currently arguing for me being scum based on a pre-flip association with DrD who you scumread but aren't questioning so I have no idea what you're doing rn but you not townreading me is not the biggest issue with your slot

[DVa]

I was roleblocked?

[DVa]

I could probably just hardclaim here, I don't think my role has really that much value. Confirming that scum have a roleblocker is probably the most I can get out of it. The only issue is if I state n1 actions it might make a few things more obvious to scum, but... honestly I think what I think is obvious there is already obvious to them anyway.

[DVa]

Yeah I guess mechanically I shouldn't claim more until others check in but I did want to get that out there.

If A50 is real they must have A) assumed he would be protected and B) thought something from my hypoclaim was a THREAT

kekeke

[DVa]

lynching me then Seph

?

[DVa]

When did you think A50 retracted his claim?

[DVa]

Top picks:
Mew or Sephiroth
Dark Horse:
Gamma

j/w but what happened to your thing with PP?

[DVa]

I'm probably wrong about my assertions

Why?

[DVa]

Well A50 just said that through VCA it is Seph + Mew. Do you look at VCA and see that as a likely scenario?

[DVa]

Is Seph town, Gamma?

[DVa]

Gamma, who is scum?

[DVa]

Do you want PP to be today's lynch?

[DVa]

Full Vig + Gunsmith + Required Protective/JK For Failed N1 scum kill + [Me]... nothing is gated?

Seems like slightly above average power for town but idk, also implies I was rb'd by town last night instead of scum and that scum did not kill a50 because they were afraid of protective?

[DVa]

Which requires A50 to have made the kill or have been the recipient of the kill?

[DVa]

So you JK'd A50 on the assumption he makes the kill? Because it obviously wasn't a protective JK. and you jailed A50 over the mason claims?

[DVa]

We're basically already there.

Why did Nako want mass claim and why did you want popcorn?

[DVa]

Why did you JK me last night? You again think I make the kill?

[DVa]

I'm lowkey wondering whether claiming a jail action on me is a scumclaim but I don't know how we explain A50 being alive if he's scum JK/RB

[DVa]

Or why did you want hypoclaim d2 Oka?

[DVa]

Just for the record I fucking love playing scum, and am much less likely to flake when I'm scum.

You're saying you disengage when you're an ungated vig? Because I find that hard to believe personally

[DVa]

I hold the belief that we can kinda break every setup with a hypoclaim if we play it right.

??? what about mountainous?

[DVa]

BTW DVa needs to claim now because as I see it her roleblocked claim is a red flag

Why is that a red flag?

I would slightly prefer Nako claim before me altho I don't think it should change things if I'm right

[DVa]

Why would pp not claim first here?

[DVa]

I mean pp has a vote and was your top scumread all of yesterday so I don't get why you specifically wouldn't want him next

[DVa]

Did we want to hear more from PP before hammer?

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

Pretty sure this is not the first post town makes after scum CCs their role and actions.

Only question is why A50 is still alive but I guess it's possible that there's an unclaimed town jk?

pedit: @Gamma, does town ever make 2218 after being CC'd by scum?

[DVa]

Or even bring up the ascetic at all instead of critiquing the plausibility of DrD's claim, the lack of crumbs, etc.

Pedit: Gamma, from his point of view DrD claimed scum and he was more concerned with the ascetic accusations still.

[DVa]

claiming jailkeeper

a50. that's why he got the null result, and thats why i was very ok with his gs claim

See, my non-ascetic claim makes the claim less believable. If one of DDL/DVa flips scum then the other has a very strong chance to. Do not ignore this.

If scum doesn't know if I'm ascetic or not, then they can't make the roleblocked A50 claim because they don't actually know if I'm ascetic or not. Whereas if town roleblocked A50, they already know and don't need me to claim ascetic or not.

DrD claimed Mew's role and actions, and *these* were his next two posts?

Like, no.

[DVa]

We probably do want PP to post and claim because my recommendation would be for Seph to shoot PP personally.

[DVa]

I'm just saying, town doesn't look at a cross-claim from scum and start shading some other person, i.e. me, which seemed to be his top priority after DrD's claim.

So I guess the question is do we actually want Penguin to claim or should we just leave it up to Seph if he shoots Penguin or not? Because Penguin probably isn't posting anything until Monday and I am ready for Mew to eat a noose.

[DVa]

Who are you masons with today Koki?

[DVa]

you?

d'aww, I'm flattered

[DVa]

There have been setups with multiple protective-ish roles (one setup had all of town doctor, one-shot babysitter, and novice roleblocker) and GS with no false positives (but gated to even night). It's the total lack of gates that's surprising here.

[DVa]

Can you expand on why A50 is scum again Mew? You think there's an unclaimed investigative, or this setup has no investigative?

[DVa]

OK Mew, but riddle me this

You're town JK. You know you blocked A50.

You also *think you prevented A50 from making a kill* and that A50 is scum

But then you think *scum don't know whether you're ascetic*?

In this scenario, A50 never even tried to target you, they know you are probably not ascetic because they know A50 was roleblocked.

So how the fuck does that compute? How do you think scum needed you to out you being "not-ascetic" if you *also* think you blocked A50 from making a kill?

[DVa]

To be fair, Seph's progression on BEF is also baffling.

>Starts tring BEF
>Decides BEF is scummy
>Defends BEF despite him being scummy
>Eventually votes BEF as a consensus lynch
>Then... shoots BEF over Nako and A50

I also kinda dislike how his scum pile becomes his null pile and his null pile becomes his scum pile. Like that's just fucking weird--everyone who started in his scum pile is moved to "can't sort" by end of day.

idk tho, Vig is still a pretty ballsy claim for scum to make even if the night actions here require him to have been totally fucking disengaged n2 which is hard to swallow

Spoiler:

I'm here.

Town pile: { Tchill, Radja, Kokichi, Joey }

Null Pile: { BEF, PP, A50, nako }

Scummy Pile: { okapoka, drdoolittle, dva }

No reason to put the -1 on unless Drdoolittle doesnt post tonight as promised so VOTE: okapoka[/b] instead.

I think BEF looks pretty damn town by comparison to my last game with him. Could be NAI but I don't get scum vibes from him.

{ Kokichi, Joey }
Gamma
dva, mew/radja, okapoka, almost50, drdoolittle
PP, TChill, BEF, Nako

@Seph: Are you scum in this game, bud? What even??

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Your post 988 was clearly rolefishing especially since you implied the entire time you 'just wanted to clear his slot and move on'. Trying to get a claim with that belief is 100% rolefishing. What BEF said was much less rolefishy and Nako's vote makes no sense if you look at the context of BEfs post and your post. Care to elaborate? Because at the moment it seems like you're trying v hard to buddy me and then periodically getting suspicious when I don't do exactly what you want/expect. Your indignation makes no sense given how clearly you were rolefishing and your stated reason for doing so.

And further, why does Nako view BEFs vote as rolefishing but say nothing about your very prominent rolefishing? I would at least like Nako to acknowledge the question and say whether they do or don't agree that you are blatantly rolefishing much worse than BEF is.

Okay here's where I am right now...

---

Townreads:

Kokichi
Joey
--
Gamma
PP
Mew

Can't sort:

Okapoka
Dva
DrDooLittle

Scumreads:

BEF
Tchill
Nako
A50

I town read Kokichi and Joey for obvious reasons, I town read both gamma and PP now based on thinking their exchange over the last few pages is TvT. I also liked PPs part of our exchange when I voted him. Maybe he slightly buddied me but I'm willing to figure that out D2. I don't have any strong reason to town read Mew but they are activ, look to be sorting, and I generally find their logic to be solid so definitely better than null.

Can't really sort Dva or okapoka. Between the two of them I feel slightly worse about dva based on our interaction when I came out of V/LA, it just seemed like a pointless thing to push me on especially once I admitted to not having caught up yet. I view them both as making arguments I strongly disagree with often, but I can see it coming from a real place

most

of the time.
I'm a little frustrated about DDL pretty much coasting. I don't think 855 was that good honestly. I'm okay with them in the null pile for now since we already wagoned him and nothing really came of it but he is the closest of these 3 to being a scumlean.

Nako is posting frequently enough but not engaging with the game beyond surface level imo (is that their meta?). This coincides with her completely inexplicable choice to vote BEF for rolefishing in the face of A50's much more blatant rolefishing (fishing against someone he called a tr) I don't think BEF's level of engagement with the game is particularly different from the last game we played in which he was correctly called as scum based on this meta. Also don't feel too bad lynching him generally has he hasn't made much effort to solve the game imo. A50 I feel like I've discussed plenty, but mostly because the only thing they could think of to stop a wagon on their tr was to add their vote, give intent, and ask for a claim. Don't see any town mindset there. Tchill would be a compromise lynch for me bc while I have a scum lean from some of his more coasty posts I feel confident that he will actually play D2 and become more readable then. Desire to end day at 40 pages I consider NAI for him.

That's my meta btw.

Well i wasn't really asking you but fair enough. I'm more concerned with ignoring A50's rolefish to attack what was arguably not even a rolefish by BEF and placing your vote there.

Oh, I was pre-posted. Twice!

Re PP:

Yes I see your point as well. I think the reaction itself is NAI but I tr him for other reasons. I tr you both atm. I'm still curious what gives you the whole caught scum vibe, though.

Re BEF:

Combination of a strong sense of this being his scum meta and also believing even if it isn't he won't contribute much as town. But really I'm fairly confident in this being his scum game after playing 2038 with him. Read Nics ISO and check his meta case on BEF, which was 100% spot on, and compare it to this game then to some other BEF town games. Its a pretty strong correlation.

[DVa]

I mean, scum still doesn't know whether I'm ascetic or not especially IF the roleblock didn't come from their team (ie. it came from me as town). That's why you making a push on claiming non-ascetic/ascetic was troubling because it could have been to clarify that it was a roleblock rather than a random town Ascetic variable => that's an unclaimed action for anyone to take. They are not mutually exclusive.

WTF? You are aware that "ascetic" does not mean bulletproof right? If he was shooting you he fucking knows you aren't ascetic

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument here

[DVa]

The thing is, Seph's claim is entirely testable and foolproof as soon as there are two kills in one night. So it's not much use pondering whether they are being truthful or not.

You're assuming then there's no scum RB?

[DVa]

1) This is a claim based entirely on actions made by me unless there is a scum roleblocker and the scum team actually did end up roleblocking A50 as well.
2) DVa's play around me/Seph has been irking me for this entire day phase (D2). They've displayed that they've been stuck on my slot in one way or another but I'm not completely convinced that they couldn't just be trying to sew seeds of doubt on each other.
3) DVa's reaction to that... wasn't great. They took that more as an attack on them rather than an attack on DDL when it is two-pronged on both players.
4) If people are thinking about going to an alternative wagon and there are people saying that this is another case of "there has to be scum in DDL/Mew" because this isn't how scum play around each other, then I think this is a good time to L-1.

Scum claimed scum and half your thought process is about me?

Like you realize that's fucking weird right?

Where is:
"Did they infer my role from A50's claim?
Did they rolecop me?
Does this confirm BEF was a vig shot?
Are they trying to force me to CC so that they can shoot me or is this only to save DrD slot?
Why would DrD, as scum, cross-claim me if he wasn't sure I was already on the wagon?
Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

Like, when is your fucking only thoughts about scum claiming scum "is DVa, confused by a claim with a confirmed night action, scum because she said shit about me being ascetic when I'm not"?

Like do you understand that this does not read like a town thought process, this reads like a "scum explaining why they were setting up a mislynch when they were supposedly CC'd by scum" thought process

[DVa]

So from your point of view there's only one scenario here right? Sephiroth is confirmed town.

a) If there was scum rolecop, and scum knew your role that way, then they would have killed you last night
b) If scum had killed BEF, then they would not think there is a VIG, so there would be no reason to claim JK over town RB

The only reason you would be alive and for DrD to have still claimed town JK requires scum to have missed on A50, and doesn't that also require A50 to be town? Otherwise, why would DrD say JK instead of RB?

Like he nailed your role exactly, which implies he knew both there was both a roleblock *and a save*. So why is A50 and Seph not *both confirmed town* for you? How do you get to A50 as scum in this scenario given that DrD had to figure out your role through deduction?

[DVa]

Unless you think DrD just straight up guessed it was JK and not RB/commuter/something else? Or thought JK would sound better for some reason?

[DVa]

Or DrD claimed JK just because there was already JK speculation in your mind?

Hey, you bitched about reaching out.

[DVa]

"Do scum assume that since he is cross-claiming a real TPR that he will go down so they will be bussing?"

DrD when he makes that claim must know he is claiming a TPR, since you are town and know there was no scum RB on A50. So he knows *that person* will want to lynch him. He is now 100% confirmed scum to someone in the town. So then is the question do scum avoid the wagon because they want to see who pushes him after, or do scum bus because they assume he will be going down anyway given that now one person in the town has the equivalent of a daycop guilty on him? Or do they hardlurk given that DrD could be cross-claimed at any moment? How does scum react to knowing that DrD has just set himself up for a hard cross-claim?

[DVa]

A50 and DDL both scum

=> DDL's claim could be to reveal the JK

But in this scenario *DDL doesn't know there is JK*. From DrD's point of view, it could be: roleblocker, JK, Commuter, or he could have hit a bulletproof or commuted target. His kill target could have been doc saved. His kill target could have been babysat. His kill target could have been a town hider. There's a lot of reasons for A50's nightkill to fail if he's scum, there's no reason to assume it's JK over anything else, unless he was just going with the flow of the town because I think maybe a few people had speculated about JK at that point. In which case that's a crazy f'n coincidence

[DVa]

Say we lynch PP today instead of you. In this scenario, who does Seph shoot?

[DVa]

I mean if mew is scum he is significantly above average at rationalizing his thought process. It is actually plausible he has been heavily tunneled. But I don't get why he's thinking a50 is scum given drds claim. I feel like his reads still dont make sense but maybe... idk gonna have to let some other people get in here I guess

I still kinda want to lynch him cause neegan was scummy but I feel like its plausible every tpr claim right now is real. But I do struggle with tpr claims tbh

I feel like usually I would be more confident he was scum if he was scum

[DVa]

Maybe drd spoiled me into thinking fakeclaims would collapse with mi or scrutiny. But the total lack of non shitty crumbs and the lack of a crumb on rbing a50 seriousmy bothers me still so idk

[DVa]

why are you certain mew is scum again koki?

[DVa]

VOTE: PP

Extra encouragement for the claim order to continue

[DVa]

ok im a tv

sig material right here

[DVa]

What would Yubuki Nako do?

[DVa]

Really liking koki's undeserved sense of superiority right now.

can you expand on this?

[DVa]

I have 0 motivation to play any mafia at the moment.

Yubuki Nako would be MAXIMUM GENKI

[DVa]

It's

Ya

buki dayo.

oops

[DVa]

Voyeur

BEF was only visited by a single killing action the night he died.

[DVa]

Nako can I ask why you wanted d2 massclaim as vt?

[DVa]

I thought Nako was vig for most of d2 between the massclaim ask and the "if Im anything else I visited bef" hypo

[DVa]

I mean all I get is garbage like "targeted by killing action" I didn't even get whether BEF was a vig kill or not which is kinda annoying

I don't think GS + Vig + JK + Voyeur is unacceptable for town strength, even if it feels a biiit on the heavy side if all are ungated. I kinda feel like Voyeur is the type of named role NRG would throw into a setup because someone was complaining it felt just a touch scumsided so it could very well actually be out of place.

If A50 isn't real then we're basically looking at a mountainous here which would be very surprising given DrD's willingness to counter-claim a role of another player so I think in terms of balance the GS claim is usually real here unless this is really just supposed to be basically double day with a vig+JK+Voyeur? seems unlikely to me tbh

Unfortunately at this point Mew and Seph both have the likelihood of their claims somewhat tied to each other. If Seph is a real vig, then a scum!Mew would know that he is the one who jailed A50. So A50 is right that scum!mew would have to have chosen to leave A50 alive, which would mean *the remaining scum team has to be something like scum doctor PLUS scum roleblocker"

That would mean setup was:
GS + Vig + Voyeur
vs Scum Doctor + Scum Roleblocker + Goon
OR
Scum roleblocker + Goon + (scumteam that decided to leave an ungated GS unblocked and unkilled....?????)

Like... that does not get past NRG, I don't think

comparing that to
GS + Vig + Voyeur + JK
vs.
Goon + ? + ?

I mean scum have to have something here, idk what, but I'm not sure how we explain the night actions that result in A50 getting a result tonight unless Mew is real

idk might need to think about this some more

[DVa]

Mew didn't tr ddl after jk claim? He did leave it open to conditionals (if DDL flips scum, then...) but he did not say DDL was town I don't think. What posts are you thinking about?

[DVa]

Well, I don't know that Mew has to stand down. I was thinking optimal play would maybe be you choose a GS target, and then Mew jails that target, and I voyeur that target. That way my voyeur action confirms both of your actions really occurred and we get a 'mostly clear?/scum doctor wildcard' result. One of the three power roles die; if it's me then there's wifom with mew, but we should still get a GS result. If it's GS then I should have confirmation on Mew, unless there's a scum roleblocker on top of a town JK which seems uhhhh unlikely?

Then we basically can have Seph shoot whoever is not getting GS'd basically

So if you were like "gonna GS Gamma", mew jails gamma, I voyeur, then Seph can shoot....

and that's where my plan runs out cause I guess he's shoot Oka at that point as a VT claim with no GS result on him?

Not in love with that part of the plan but I guess we need to talk about who Seph shoots if we're not lynching him.

I also think Seph's play here seems pretty f'n suspect given he's claimed ungated vig and we have yet to have 2 nks, even if it still seems at least plausible. But I'm not categorically opposed to lynching Seph here even if I think it would be ballsy to claim vig as scum.

[DVa]

I thought about that but if I'm confirming both Mew and Seph then that guarantees scum kill me basically

Pretty sure scum has to shoot someone and actually get a corpse, even if there's the risk then that scum holsters?

seems unlikely given that a50 is getting results at that point

also assumes we don't hit scum with lynch today

[DVa]

Pretty sure

Seph

has to shoot someone and actually get a corpse

EBWOP

[DVa]

I think lynch is stronger for VCA in the event this game goes to lylo.

[DVa]

I think pp lynch is way to go but I don't know how to resolve seph vig target cause I don't see a good target personally

like I'd almost rather lynch seph than have him vig town to prove his claim? if he's leashed, it's only good if he's actually shooting scum, otherwise scum just nk and wifom the fuck out of us. but I ALSO want to lynch PP

so... fuck? not sure how to solve

[DVa]

A50 you rather action dump on gamma, oka, or nako?

[DVa]

Would help if seph wasn't mia

[DVa]

VOTE: seph

Sure, although still think penguin flips scum tbh

[DVa]

Seph, if we asked you to shoot a VT claim that won't be jailed (Oka) or lynched (PP), which would you shoot out of Nako and Gamma?

[DVa]

Even if we ask him to be leashed I'd still like to hear his preference

[DVa]

3) pp's reentrance into this game was really lackluster. he showed up, claimed, made a few jokes and then left.

What do you expect me to do? We've massclaimed with no obvious counterclaims, and I'm a vt. The game has become a mechanics and VCA discussion...and I really have nothing to add that will actually end up having any impact.

I can gif more. I'm good at that.

Do you agree with action dump on Oka, who would you suggest to vig, and who do you think would be a better lynch for today than yourself?

[DVa]

VOTE: Penguin Power

This is going through today btw

[DVa]

What is an action dump?

I'm a voyeur, so if A50 and Mew both target someone, I can at least confirm their actions are real. Right now the plan is to action dump on Oka (have three claimed tprs target Oka, and have Mew shoot someone else). If scum kills A50, I confirm Mew's jail action did not target Seph (which means Seph should go through with his shot). If scum kills me, A50 gets a result.

[DVa]

if all are ungated it's pretty high on the town power rating but there have been some pretty overwhelming setups in NY so it's not totally out of the question, just a bit much

[DVa]

Traitors are restricted to larges iirc

[DVa]

What if mafia kills voyeur when action dump is done?

Then A50 is still alive and has a GS result

[DVa]

so then the next question is, is it possible for there only to be two town PRs?

I think it's highly probable at least three tpr claims are real.

[DVa]

Mew you ok JKing Oka tonight?

also, feelings on pp lynch?

[DVa]

Scum either also shot BEF

Once again, there was exactly one killing action on BEF, there was not a duplicate kill

also, to be clear, if Seph thought I was watcher, that would give him motivation to claim vig if he was the scum that made the kill (in the world where seph is scum)

[DVa]

Like, I think there's a decent chance Seph is scum?

but I think mechanically we still go for his partner and give him the chance to clear himself?

[DVa]

Seph never shoots Mew... If Seph knows he is the vig and he shot BEF, then he knows Mew prevented the scum nightkill n1.

[DVa]

I'm probably going to target whoever I think is the best target. DVa can still voyeur A50 if she wants to confirm A50, then that's her thing.

To be clear, if you do not JK Oka and get confirmed by my voyeur action you do in fact get lynched tomorrow so this is not ok

[DVa]

I would shoot nako over gamma easily

OK so now, the question is do we pretend we can leash Seph

If he was leashed, my preference would be that he shoot Gamma

In the scenario where PP flips green, I would entertain the possibility of Seph/Gamma

I am thinking that does not happen because I think PP flips red

but if Seph wants to be leashed, he shoots Gamma

If Seph wants to explain why he shot Nako over Gamma tomorrow, he shoots Nako

I think presenting it this way is more informative for Seph tomorrow yes?

[DVa]

We can't have both Vig and JK unleashed, so if Mew isn't agreeing to be leashed he is getting lynched today

We can have one of the two unleashed, not both

[DVa]

The point is that they can't just shoot you so you can't confirm me, but ok

You're saying you would JK me?

That is a theoretical possibility actually, if you agree to be leashed to me. This does prevent the chance of me confirming A50's gunsmith check is real, though.

We could go: you JK Oka, and my Voyeur resolves on Oka with you there, or you JK me, and I know you did not JK Seph's vig target

This would be ok actually, but you can't be totally unleashed, we can do at best 50/50.

[DVa]

dva come vote mew

A flip on Seph is mechanically superior to a flip on Mew most times here imo

but I still think a PP lynch is superior to either of those for today

[DVa]

Like, from Seph POV, Mew is conf town

but from Mew POV, Seph is not conf town

Town seph knows that Mew blocked a kill
Town Mew does not know that Seph isn't fakeclaiming vig

[DVa]

Seph being real basically requires there to be 4 tprs

Mew being real does not require Seph to be real, so there can be three TPRs

savvy?

[DVa]

PP osn't happening.

why not?

[DVa]

I'd rather lynch Kokichi and, if he is town, shoot me. If he's scum, shoot A50.

What is an action dump?

I'm not sure I buy PP writing either part of this post as town, but particularly not the first part with Koki as GS inno.

Town PP knows to lynch A50 first, imo.

[DVa]

If we lynch Seph I think I might slightly prefer an action dump on Gamma

[DVa]

Then you haven't read what I've said about Kokichi at all.

but I have

[DVa]

@DVa: Why would Scum PP lynch Koki and suggest if he flips TOWN then PP himself gets Vigged?

you're the one speculating about a scum doctor so you tell me

[DVa]

This day is dragging on atm

we're talking about lynching prs and you possibly getting vigged and you're bored?

[DVa]

Yeah I am. Nothing new has really been suggested in what I just read.

then why don't you take a stance? why aren't you pushing PP through?

[DVa]

You're Gsing Gamma tonight?

[DVa]

VOTE: pp

[DVa]

Yeah we're lynching on the mew wagon today

Seph can be scum but if so you decide his buddy between oka/gamma/pp

[DVa]

My mod confirmation is that you fucked the plan with a shit wagon on the one tpr we do not fucking lynch yesterday

How the fuck do you ask for hypo and then lynch the twice confirmed jailkeeper before the vig claim that would confirm he had a n1 save

Either you are scum or you threw yeaterday which is it?

[DVa]

What is your read of pp anyway?

[DVa]

VOTE: Gamma

This might actually be better now

[DVa]

UNVOTE: Actually I think I'm still too pissed off about the flips

Need to hear what Seph's claim is

If {PP, Gamma} doesn't have a scum though I will tiltreplace out if game isn't over by that point tho

That EoD was fucking gross

[DVa]

Trying to decide if Seph claims first or if I care enough to wait

[DVa]

I just answered your question

[DVa]

OK Penguin so you were going to get lynched so it's not like mindblowing that you quickhammered

but why the fuck does Gamma L-1 when he is the one getting jailed and copped in the plan

is "bored" a legitimate excuse for gamma because I know he can be apathetic as town but this is like wtf

I know you wanted Gamma like all game so why are you entering today seeming indifferent to his l-1 when he was not the one getting lynched like you were?

[DVa]

His L-1 on MEW

But yeah, okay, I've still never seen you this dense as town so

[DVa]

This was the plan for multiple people...which is why I'm saying you're having a tantrum today.

This was the plan over the course of four fucking minutes and A50 agreeing to a dumb fucking plan does not give you permission to

You are not A50 and you are not so stupid as to think that town, other than Oka who seems to have either lost his fucking mind or decided to start open wolfing, but yeah, Seph never even fucking agreed to the plan or posted so why the fuck would you think that was "the plan" and it was okay to hammer ONE MINUTE after A50 agreed when Seph had not said shit about it?

[DVa]

And I’m waiting for DVa to give a result

why?

why were you bored yesterday with mechanics but now are waiting for them?

which is it Gamma?

[DVa]

No one visited Gamma, so:
-A50 wanted to test me (most likely)
-A50 changed his mind on who to check (also possible)
-A50 was roleblocked (seems less likely tbh)

Who do you think is scum Seph?

[DVa]

Ok so are we just doing him today then or what

VOTE: Seph

Like mechanically this is wrong since he gets lynched in lylo every time but I'd rather die as the last named and let you all deal with this mess at this point

[DVa]

I don't think it was

[DVa]

Nako already hammered so if you got something to say better spill the beans fast

Nako and Koki are my only townreads at this point

[DVa]

Interesting that Koki wasn't the kill

Not sure why you think I'm scum now Nako

[DVa]

So Koki was cleared by Gunsmith so if the only result A50 got was on a scum doctor I think we just lose

Not sure what to do with Nako's posts today but I've been thinking Gamma probably has to be scum here

[DVa]

So, it seems to me that we had a plan set for the Mew lynch, and then we were only changing one part of that plan--moving from Oka as the jail and invest target to Gamma

At that point, Mew started to qq about the plan, A50 lost his shit, and for some reason everyone decided to just listen to A50

Penguin was going to be the lynch, so him avoiding his own lynch at least is plausible, although I don't really see him as likely town at the moment

but Gamma switching to Mew because he was bored seems pretty far fetched, and it seems now that {lynch Penguin, shoot Nako, invest Gamma} was a game-winning dayphase there

Now I don't really have a full solve here although if I haven't been wrong about literally everything the whole game I'd go with Gamma + Penguin as the scumteam, but at this point I can't say with absolute confidence I'm locked on anything

But I think I vote Gamma here unless someone has a compelling reason not to

[DVa]

If it's PP+Nako and I vote Gamma we lose, although not immediately because PP never logs on

PP made like, one post I really liked, but beyond that idk

Nako has seemed to have some pretty townie thought processes from time to time although some of her choices have confused me

Gamma wasn't really heavily pinging me but in retrospect it's possible I've just been underestimating his scumgame

is it ever not Gamma here?

[DVa]

No one visited Koki last night, which was surprising since he was the obvious kill. But my voyeur ability is basically useless at this point because scum have no need of any ability other than kill

[DVa]

So scum lefta PR and a GS inno alive to kill Oka?

The Oka kill is worth thinking about but yeah, Koki hasn't really been driving the narrative, and if they think they can drive his vote then they win if he's town. I'm assuming Oka kill was more valuable since I'm the planned mislynch for game win

[DVa]

If I'm right, the Mew lynch was a last ditch effort in response to the planned course of action of PP lynch --> Gamma jail+GS which would have been town autowin

[DVa]

That setup could result in a D2 win for town perfectly played without a scum doctor or roleblocker/jailkeeper.

like, chance this is scum looking at autoloss and is complaining about the situation? this spec requires PP to believe that scum do not have a roleblocker which was not the thought process I was having at the time

so if scum team is something like strong investigative (scum rolecop) + ?(even goon maybe) vs. GS+Vig+JK+Voyeur, then he would be looking at a setup that was stacked for town and not really caring about the game, which would be why he and Gamma both got bored and PP basically stopped posting anything of substance once the mechanical discussion set in

[DVa]

PP and Gamma would both also be more familiar with A50 and thus would be more likely to target him for a night 1 kill in this playerlist imo

[DVa]

Like I did not play this game flawlessly but the Mew lynch was a lowkey throw and my tilt since then has been kinda wild

I also think the intent to hammer after hammer from Gamma was pretty lamist

Let's just hammer test and be done with it?

VOTE: Gamma

Nako if you could post with Koki so that if I'm *that wrong* we could find out real quick that would be great

[DVa]

Or should I spend more time here ruling out Nako+PP?

Like who looks the shittiest from the Mew lynch, PP who was getting lynched, Gamma who was getting jailed+invested, or Nako who was getting shot?

Gamma every time right? Because Gamma as someone who would be gunsmith cleared should be totally fine with that plan, but he jumped ship for the stupidest possible reasons

PP (from a town POV) knows he is town and so just lynches literally anyone else, even if PP is still probably scum

Gamma should have had positive incentive to stay on that course of action if he was town, and if he jumped ship out of real town boredom and it's PP + Nako I'll be both surprised and a little bit pissed

[DVa]

But Gamma should only really jump ship there if he's scum, and that also explains the double kill on A50

If Gamma is town, Seph gets shot by scum. A50 only gets double killed by vig+scum if A50 is checking scum, and A50 was checking Gamma

[DVa]

Yeah I think I agree with that sentiment
VOTE: Mewtaph

I was roleblocked?

Wait what UNVOTE:
Could we pause for a second?

Do you want PP to be today's lynch?

I think it’s a good idea
VOTE: penguinpower

VOTE: Mew
w/e

This progression makes sense if Gamma is scum with PP when the original plan was that Oka gets jailed+invested, wherein the vote on PP is a bus. He changes to Mew when we start saying he will be the one jailed and investigated

This progression is open wolfing if Gamma is scum with Nako

This progression is hot garbage if Gamma is town, but it's not like I'd blame him in particular for this throw, that's mostly A50 for agreeing to be shot and Seph for actually fucking shooting him

[DVa]

Why are you voting so fast in lylo. Dont make me sr you

If I was scum I wouldn't be voting yet

Do you want me to unvote or do you want Nako to post something so that we can hard rule out you + Nako?

[DVa]

Like how much do I want to overthink a game where the the vig shot the fucking gunsmith *AFTER* it became incredibly likely that the GS had been a jailkeeper save n1

like that's just fucking nuts, we have one clear, I have a 2/3 chance, and I don't think it's Nako, and I have had incidental doubts about PP. I don't know who Gamma's partner is with total certainty but I don't see how he's not scum here. It's *probably* Gamma+PP, but I feel like it's DEFINITELY Gamma given the counter-push on Mew

Nako was not on Mew, and while conventional wisdom would be one scum on, one scum off, if it was PP + Gamma they were looking at autoloss right there

[DVa]

Like Koki if you say PP is better, because he was feeding Oka's setup spec wifom, then sure, say the word, but scum lost their shit when I said that we were action dumping on Gamma

so why would they do that if he's town?

[DVa]

Like Penguin thought it was Gamma and Gamma thought it was Penguin but they never really fucking pushed each other at all, they've just been distancing all game

Now I guess the fear is PP+ Nako where Nako asks for a mass claim because she *needs* to find the vig, which she knows is real because she's not the one who shot BEF

I think that would be the main argument for Nako scum, but I kinda don't think scum ask for a mass claim after they fail their n1 kill tbh

and even if she was scum does that at this point make Gamma town?

[DVa]

Are you implying I was distancing you? Because I'm not sure I get your "hmm" otherwise, since presumably I would not be distancing you unless you were scum with me.

[DVa]

Hmm...

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with "Hmm..." -- do you disagree with some part of my reasoning?

[DVa]

I mean I know Nako logged off at some point but Koki and Nako were posting in relatively close proximity earlier so if it is a Koki/Nako team they kinda threw by not hammering Gamma already

[DVa]

Also Gamma has basically just stopped responding to this thread which suggests to me that I'm right

[DVa]

At least about him, still not sure I can say I'm 100% on the partner

Compelling reasons against Gamma/Penguin team, Penguin?

[DVa]

Sure, but you just made like 7 "hmm" comments at me which seemed to be asking for some sort of response, maybe that was more for the crowd at large or something?

[DVa]

Well Gamma, do you have a compelling reason to think it is Penguin + Nako?

[DVa]

ftr Gamma I still really like you as a player and I don't really want this to be hostile I just think you're all but confirmed scum given how you reacted to mew wagon in response to the action dump plan

[DVa]

I recall you mentioning the possibility of Mafia Doctor, do you really consider that to not be possible?
As for the two things you mentioned in the next post: I don’t remember what exactly I said about the action plan but the Mew vote was because nothing new seemed to be coming up, so I wanted something to flip, and flipping Mew was extra-good in the “shaking up the conversation” department because Mew vs. A50 was drowning out a lot of other things imo.

A mafia doctor is possible. But there is no evidence, and frankly while this setup may at a glance seem stacked for town, I think a mafia doctor would go in the opposite direction of swinging a bit too heavily toward scum. That would be a godfather + anti-vig functionality that would be too much. And even if we did have a scum doctor, we would have to assume that Kokichi baited a gunsmith claim *before he knew the town investigative*. If there had been a town cop instead of a town gunsmith he would have been setting himself up to get rekt.

So I see koki being a mafia doctor as a remote possibility that frankly isn't worth seriously second-guessing myself with. Beyond that, he's been town based on his meta for the entire game. Now, his town meta isn't super helpful, but it is his town meta, so whatcha gonna do.

**

Now, in regard to you being bored by the plan... I mean, frankly your explanation is completely the same as an excuse for you to start open wolfing. And it wasn't all the same. I was changing the target from Oka to you. If you were town, why would you NOT want to be basically confirmed town AND guaranteed to be alive the next dayphase? Why would THAT be boring for you? I would find the prospect exciting personally. I know you have a very different temperament than me, but your decision to push Mew, considering Penguin was off-wagon and the widely accepted next best lynch, looks bad for you my man, especially considering it's now really obvious that was a game-winning plan.

Mew vs. A50 was drowning out other things--but if you were town, wouldn't you step in and tell A50 to get on board with Penguin, which was the clearly better lynch mechanically and also just... Penguin wasn't very townie at that point or at any point. Why would you compromise on Mew there just because A50 said so and because A50 was being his usual loud self? I mean I know you will compromise with loud players on occasion, but not when there's a *clearly better choice mechanically*. Like I just don't see you lynching a twice-confirmed tpr claim just because another tpr was being loud with him.

[DVa]

And beyond that, at this point my vote has been sitting on you for over 24 hours, and while Penguin hasn't been on at the same time as Nako, Nako and Koki were both on relatively close together.

If I am somehow wrong on you, the most plausible pairing is Penguin+Nako. In which case Penguin is basically waiting for Nako to be online at the same time for hammer. So if you know you are town, that basically would have to be the pairing, so walk me through why I am so wrong on Nako in that case.

[DVa]

Well I've walked through each prospect:
Koki has a GS inno, and he fakeclaimed mason d1, which seems like something he'd do as town and not something he'd do as scum doctor.... but I could be wrong. If Koki is a real prospect, why would he fakeclaim mason d1 as a scum doctor? lulz?

Nako asked for a mass claim when she believed we had masons, a vig kill, and a protective save. This would only make sense if she was scum with Kokichi and already knew the mason claim was fake and so was hunting for the vig. But I've already given Nako and Koki enough time I would *think* they would have hammered, although I guess no promises there. Anyway, with Penguin, it makes very little sense to me to me. I just don't see Nako playing d2 the way she did as scum after a failed kill tbh, especially if scum do not have a roleblocker, which at this point it seems there's no reason to think they do.

Penguin is plausibly scum, although he did seem to have one townie reaction on d1, and his hammer on Mew, while much more likely to be open wolfing, could plausibly be town desperation. I can see his actions coming from town at this point easier than I can for you, even though he's probably scum.

So I see it as Gamma > Penguin > Nako > Koki at the moment. Why should I reorder that lynch priority list in any way?

[DVa]

I am never voting before PP puts down their vote.

Kind of an odd sentiment, if it is Gamma+PP then wouldn't you really mostly need to talk with Koki? Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for scum to wifom you

[DVa]

That is definitely possible. I have been getting bad feeling from her just ignoring the fact she’s on the table as well.
VOTE: DVa

So are you ruling out PP+Nako then?

[DVa]

DVa, I'd like to learn that why you did not vote PP and voted Gamma.

I've outlined my thought process in several posts including 2984 but here are some of the reasons again:

Mew L-1 was bad:

Gamma switching to Mew because he was bored seems pretty far fetched, and it seems now that {lynch Penguin, shoot Nako, invest Gamma} was a game-winning dayphase there

After-hammer "intent to hammer" on Seph was bad:

I also think the intent to hammer after hammer from Gamma was pretty lamist

Penguin also has a better excuse for the Mew hammer than Gamma has for the Mew L-1:

Penguin is plausibly scum, although he did seem to have one townie reaction on d1, and his hammer on Mew, while much more likely to be open wolfing, could plausibly be town desperation. I can see his actions coming from town at this point easier than I can for you, even though he's probably scum.

So I see it as Gamma > Penguin > Nako > Koki at the moment. Why should I reorder that lynch priority list in any way?

[DVa]

Do you have any response to DVa's case?
Also DVa, would you vote PP with me?

I believe in this scenario it's generally better to stay on Gamma given how long my vote has been on him; while this list is inactive enough scum could plausibly failed to coordinate a quickhammer it would be surprising for it to have taken them *this* long

and while if it is me-nako-penguin in 3-way, I would almost certainly vote penguin there (and thus if it is not penguin I would just be delaying the loss by not voting him today), there is still the off chance that scum do not kill koki tonight, so I would prefer to stay on Gamma for now.

[DVa]

Scum doctor is possible, I just see it as one of only a few possibilities and not particularly likely given Koki's play

Do you think Koki fakeclaims masons at L-2 on d1 as a scum doctor? If Joey had denied him, or if town had a cop, he'd be setting himself up to get lynched hard as the strongest scum pr--and koki tends to post much more as scum, so why wouldn't he post even more as a scum pr?

[DVa]

If we have 1 JK + 1 Vig + 1 Voyeur + 1 GS, I think a scum Doctor can be somehow possible

like for this to be balanced, all scum needs is like one of ANY power role

compare this to something like hard boiled:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Hard_Boiled
1 vig, one weak tpr (hider), one investigative (det/psych)
vs. 3 goons

add one of almost any scum prs to scum side and you can add a JK and it's basically balanced

rolecop, commuter, neapolitan, vanilla cop -- any of these as a power role for scum would make the setup balanced, and not result in the risk of it being viewed as scum sided in the way that a scum doctor would
also, given DrD's claim, it could be that scum were informed (and thus knew there was a JK)
if there was something like scum neap + informed scum then the setup would be regarded as balanced, easily

so given the multitude of possibilities I just don't see why we'd assume there's a scum doctor unless there was something about koki that would make us think that. And based on his play I don't see it as particularly likely.

So I'm much more inclined to just take the gunsmith inno as a real inno. If this was a large game, we'd also have to think about traitor. But I don't think we need to worry about that here either, it's most likely just 3 scum and there's no reason to think one is a scum doctor.

[DVa]

I think PP might flip Mafia Rolecop/Neap.

Why?

[DVa]

There are several things confusing about that chain of logic, but ok let's walk through it

1: Scum did not kill BEF. I voyeur'd BEF n1 and there was only one killing action. Seph claimed a shot on BEF, which means Seph was the one and only kill on BEF. This implies scum n1 failed their NK on A50. (I cannot imagine scum no killing n1)

2: Why would scum check a mason claim? If they believed it, they would be looking for any other TPRs, like doctors or cops {or gunsmiths}, that are a more significant threat. They kill the masons once they have mitigated the risk of protective roles and investigative roles. If it's three goons, they know there's something more than masons in the town power structure.

3: Even if scum had killed BEF, why would that point to Penguin over Gamma or make Penguin the scum PR?

[DVa]

DVa, if I vote PP, will you vote him with me?

While the answer is yes I am still kinda perplexed by why you are asking this question. Gamma is basically confscum at this point and he's pretty clearly decided to elect an antispew strategy as caught scum so I don't know why anyone would change votes here. Like you and Koki could lynch Gamma here and then it could be 3-way by the time Penguin is ready to read the thread on Saturday and defend himself.

Like Gamma is never not scum here so... what we waiting for

[DVa]

That's from your PoV, I don't think he can be scum with PP.

Why not?

[DVa]

Vote Gamma

[DVa]

Koki, sit down and put 10 minutes into this game and come up with one reason that Gamma is town

When that fails vote him

[DVa]

I'm trying really hard to read DVa, she has been townie in this game but I don't understand why did she Gamma so fast, she did not even consider me being a scum chance (I protected PP whole game, we could be scum partners from obsever PoV).
A50 metaread Gamma at some point in this game and I also liked his posts at the first time, however those were not really strong since those can be faked. But IDK if Gamma plays like this as scum.

I voted Gamma precisely because I am not completely certain you aren't scum. However, there are things pointing in your favor. For one, you were not on the Mew wagon. Second, your reactions to me throughout day 1 seemed relatively townie. Third, your desire for a mass claim after the failed nightkill on A50 seems much more likely to come from town than from scum. Nonetheless, when we consider the Mew wagon, it seems much more likely to be a desperation push given how bad those actions would be for scum--but only if Gamma is scum.

The plan, given Sephiroth's claimed intentions before the counter-push onto Mew and A50's dumb acceptance that Seph should shoot him, was to lynch PP, vig you, and have A50 investigate Gamma. Given Sephiroth's vig shot was uncertain (it's always hard to tell with vigs), what is baffling here is why Gamma (who is certainly going to be alive and likely cleared by A50) would opt to lynch Mew, and you (who in this scenario would be scum getting shot) would stay off wagon.

Also, A50's metareads are generally not good, if my experience with him in 2040 are any indication.

[DVa]

If PP is scum and if DVa is town, PP bussed both of his partners? IDK how likely is that. Can anyone tell me what do they know about PP?

PP is competent enough scum that he would certainly play for endgame. Strong scum players tend to bus both of their partners strongly, since they want as much towncred in endgame as possible.

[DVa]

Gamma did not jump off from the wagon on scum when he could.

When Gamma commits to a bus, he often stays on the wagon for a long period of time. This actually should be concerning given that when Gamma is town he tends to move his vote around a bit more. You should look at how Gamma treats texcat and Golden Robster in NY213.

When presented with two EoD wagons, one on a scumbuddy (Whemestar) and one on town (incidentally, PenguinPower), Gamma opts to bus:

and a game I self hammered as doctor because I was frustrated that people didn’t believe my claim because I didn’t claim flavor?

Get your bs out of here

So when your frustrated as town you care about what happens after you get lynched? When your not frustrated all you care about is surviving?

mhm thinking about it it's actually very similar to his first newbie and yet he's playing different
nah fuck dis s*** I think wheme is actually scum
VOTE: Whemestar

During a CFD, Gamma joins a Texcat wagon here:

VOTE: texcat
eh after a mite of meta I think tex has a decent chance of being scum

and stays on it despite there being two other potential end of day wagons.

and in a later dayphases busses here:

VOTE: Golden Robster
I don't understand people backing off of this, why, because he gave up and self-voted? That's a pot of WiFoM and you know it.

and stays on it until he is lynched.

Gamma in that game bussed literally everyone on his scum team at some point (he also bussed Wheme), and did so in two situations where there were serious other wagons presented for the days lynch.

That is to say, thinking that Gamma will not bus consistently and bus early as scum is misguided.

In fact I think the reason Gamma *moved off Penguin* is precisely because *we were going to jail Gamma*. This is the point at which Gamma had to *stop his bus*. And that's why his vote on Mew makes no sense from a town PoV and is for nonsensical reasons. *He had to get off Penguin because if Penguin got lynched and he was jailed and investigated, he was losing the game*.

[DVa]

DVa what’s you experience with A50 on all your accounts?

My main experience with A50 is in Mini 2040, and if you think I would push for a night 1 kill on him if I was scum here, after that game, you would be mistaken. Conversely, YOUR scumteam opted for an early kill on A50 in NY213 due to him being townread.

[DVa]

I am willing to vote DVA at the moment.

So to be clear, if I understand your current concerns, they are:
a) I did not always push wagons on scum on d1
b) Gamma bussed a lot

In regard to a, I don't know what you expect. Most of my pushes on d1 were reaction tests, which did, over time, help me sort DDL a bit better, but not at the point of the game at which our unexplained wagon on DDL was better than our unexplained wagon on Radja. I wanted to be able to sort Radja, and I think us moving off and on of that wagon for poor reasons is probably why Mew was so skeptical of me throughout the game. Frankly, I think we should have stayed on Radja until we got a proper response from Mew. Day 1 play is not about always being on scum, it is about sorting, and I was trying to *sort*. I had to sort because I did not *already know who the scum were*.

Frankly it is way more plausible that Gamma would move from bus to bus because Gamma knew who the scum team were and could play toward a strategy of cross-bussing. I could not do that because I did not know who the scum were.

[DVa]

Actually that kinda reminds me, the way Gamma distances from DDL+PP here is very similar to how Gamma busses Wheme and Texcat in the posts I quoted earlier. I think it's a weird tic for Gamma that when he busses or distances he very frequently relies on unexplained meta arguments.

Gamma where are you on PenguinGifs, Sephora, and BearAvatar?

PenguinGifs would like to see more of, for some reason want to say Town
Sephora Idk
BearAvatar I don’t find anything particularly town indicative from them and I feel like that’s a bit scum!odd, though that’s based on meta that could be wrong

here's 2 of me doing nothing all game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=77301
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=77250

Don’t think those games count, they’re too abridged to be reliable meta

What makes you think my vote isn’t serious

Apart from my love of gifs, why is your vote serious?

The meta point against you felt semi-valid, plus you reacted like typical caught scum when you saw that point (hence why the gifs/pics are a scum thing)

Yea I did. The thing that swayed me was the gifs. And they may be NAI normally but the timing tells me something else.

What does the timing tell you? I've been using them since post one.

You have been using them since post one but they were sprinkled in. After the meta point it was a rush of gifs.

That is, as scum, Gamma tends to bus and distance his scumbuddies through underexplained "meta" discussions. 342 is the closest he gets to substance and even then he barely scratches the surface. This kinda gives me the sense that Gamma will, as scum, use meta arguments to give the impression that he is thinking about a player slot beyond the context of just this game, but since he already knows their alignment and actually reading those games would be pointless and boring, he can't really engage in a substantive discussion of the points involved or really explain his reasoning in detail.

[DVa]

I tried watching the anime on youtube but for some reason whoever uploaded made the thumbnail a spoiler which took out a bit of the fun

[DVa]

I mean she seemed pretty engaged, if all she's been doing is waiting for a quickhammer why make a whole bunch of posts and go back through the game? Like why not just keep waiting for Penguin to log on if it was Nako + Penguin?

[DVa]

You couldn't log on for a hammer for a full week?

[DVa]

I am town

[DVa]

Penguin any compelling reasons to think you're town or that Nako is scum?

[DVa]

I can think of a few reasons you're likely scum and a few reasons Nako is likely town but if you're town it would really help if you gave me some reason to think you're town. You townpinged me exactly once this game and Nako has said a few things that simply baffled me but unless there's something I'm missing here I'm probably going to vote you.

[DVa]

Alright let's reread a bit. Nako page 1.

Can everyone give me what alignment do they prefer and describe their scumgame with few sentences?

I don't prefer alignment either, and I like doing derps and i like pocketing as scum. It is not that easy for me to play scum though, I usually freeze. But i do weird things as scum, they are just more incosistent than my town play.

Liked this for Nako early game

Townish feelings from:

DDl, Gamma, DVa-chan, Kokichi Oma, OkaPoka

Probably town but hard to sort:

Almost50, Joey (If they are seriously mason, locktown with kokichi)

Feels somehow scummy but can be just the meta:

Tchill, PP

Scum in here:

Radja, Seph
I don't have a BEF read yet (a small scumlean actually but may change).

This is an unfortunate list, but maybe right on PP and one in bottom 4 isn't bad considering what the other three down there were playing like. And the Gamma townread was explained. Listing DDL as townread #1 is a bit odd given:

Meh.
DDl posting joke games are probably townish but who knows.

This was last preceding comment, but sometimes these sudden swings in read can be town indicative. (Not always tho)

BrightEyedFish died. He was a

Spoiler:

vanilla townie

VOTE COUNT 2.0

Not Voting (11)

- Everyone

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-11-24 22:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

LOL, SCUM IS BAD.

a bit lamist but really does this post ever come from scum?

If I'm anything but watcher, I visited BEF and they came up as VT/Town member/nothing yet.

If I'm watcher, I was blocked.

This is one of the things that baffled me; it's such a weird choice in hypo but I mean I guess hypo is meant to just throw off scum and try to eat a nightkill so...

[DVa]

OK, Nako page 2

Mew > kokichi > seph > oka > dva > gamma > pp > ofhrz > a50 > me
Wins the game i think.

Question:

why was PP above Gamma at this point in time? If you can remember that far back?

VOTE: Sephiroth

Seph can't possibly be town if he is thinking I would push DDl like that as partners. I am Nako the angel, not busser.

This does not read like scum to me

I mean, Sephiroth is claimimg a vig and no night had 2 kills (plus he shot Almost50 instead of me, which is ???)
I am pretty sure that he is the scum among the PR claims.

VOTE: Sephiroth

OMG my mind was left with yesterday's majority, sorry!

So this would have to be open wolfing but

VOTE: Sephiroth

even if open wolfing, does a open wolf ever do this reaction gif to someone they know flips town?

DVa, I agree with what you are saying about Kokichi. A miller + A GF would HEAVILY be scumsided and not normal game.

So I kinda wonder whether scum would ever agree with my incorrect logic that scum doctor would be scumsided

If we have 1 JK + 1 Vig + 1 Voyeur + 1 GS, I think a scum Doctor can be somehow possible. I returned back to 0 about Kokichi.

I guess she did come back around to it though

I think PP might flip Mafia Rolecop/Neap.

This is one of the posts that baffles me

Does not really matter who did they attack. They did now know Kokichi was fake mason at that moment.

Also very confusing

Okay can we note how previously Nako was pretty much confbiasing towards DVa but is not confbiasing towards me? Also, in general Nako wanting to lynch one of us before FHerPOV confscum Penguin is sketchy. I had noticed that around the time I asked Nako who she wanted to lynch. I was hoping to get a response before dropping that but it seems it won’t happen for a long time.
UNVOTE:
I need to think here. It’d be really weird if DVa wasn’t scum, but I don’t recall Kokichi being very active today so it’s possible it’s Nako + Kokichi.

uh, you realize that dva is confirmed scum to you right. if it was me and nako then we would have both voted you when we were on. same with pp and either of us.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Follow me fast, buddy.

Why did both of you start wifoming so much at the end of that day lool

GG

Don't know what to do with this lol

I have been voting Gamma since morning
You thought I am partners with PP?
DVa, please tell me that you are a town, I am going to sleep.

Now I can sleep peacefully.

Thank you.

Hope you slept well, for a bit I was surprised we got fast night since you were passing out, but I guess since Skitter did the flip only 5 minutes after you were still on.

So, a few points of bafflement, the risk of open wolfing on Sephiroth wagon, but beyond that there's several points here that seem unlikely to come from scum

[DVa]

Alright let's read PP

As I said, I am fine sorting kokichi as scum as a baseline. His posting hasn't done anything to change that.

DDL hasn't done enough for me to form an opinion. I find nothing wrong with a wagon forming on him - though it is interesting that Tchill/Kokichi wagons didn't take off like DDL did.

So this is something I notice in PP posts; he very often talks about the DDL wagon but doesn't talk as much about DDL independently. This is something I noticed certain scum do, most notably Irrelephant. I haven't meta'd Penguin to see if he's likely to focus the wagon of a partner rather than read of his partner yet tho.

I could have sworn I did last night.

VOTE: Kokichi

Feel like certain scum, actually Gamma comes to mind, are more likely to forget where their vote is.

Guys, Gamma is probably town.

Why is Gamma probably town?

Soft distancing?

gamma's not reading tonight and its a cause for concern

Why? How is that different than standard gamma?

Backpedaling?

here's 2 of me doing nothing all game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=77301
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=77250

Bad. Like...bad.

@Joey I'm just joking around dude.

If you took the time to link those 2 games, why didnt you take the time to find 2 relevant games

Distancing?

Hmm...DDL wagon went away quickly.

One scum in Dva/Gamma/BEF.

I would be interested in you casing BEF tho

Dunno, thinking it might be Gamma.

I don't do cases though. Except maybe in MyLo/LyLo when needed.

Thinks it might be Gamma here but then can't decide between Gamma and BEF here:

So it's either BFE or Gamma.

This right here was the one point you actually townpinged me. This seemed like such a real reaction to my meta discussion of your play. But actually the inclusion of BEF here is still concerning.

DDL was a wagon early game that went no where. Kokichi was a wagon that went to L-2 and he claimed mason with your slot, which your slot confirmed. Wagon dissipates. BEF wagon builds, PP wagons builds, A50/Seph makes lot of noise, PP wagon goes away, Tchill and BEF become competing wagons, Tchill gets lynched. VT.

BEF is killed N1. Flips VT.

There are claims today. Wagon theory. Your slot says you aren't actually mason with Kokichi and replaces out. Here we are.

Again, more emphasis on the DDL wagon than on DDL as a player. How is the wagon analysis helpful before there is a flip on the slot?

VOTE: DDL

That setup could result in a D2 win for town perfectly played without a scum doctor or roleblocker/jailkeeper.

Why did you ignore Oka on your Voyeur target?

...scumslip...?
I think Seph probably needs death too

Why is that a scumslip?

So something I want to point out here--Gamma recently won a game as scum where a partner accused him of scumslipping. So it seems not unlikely that Gamma would try to accuse partners of scumslipping here if he had seen how effective that can be as a strategy.

I didn't quick hammer?

Blatant lie of an obvious quickhammer.

lynch mew

town mew = vig a50
scum mew = vig pp

lynch seph if not confirmed

This was the plan for multiple people...which is why I'm saying you're having a tantrum today.

This is such an awful post

Not sure where you're getting that...but, I'm more curious to hear from Kokichi right now.

p-edit

The distancing comment you made.

So I'm voting Gamma at this point but you seem uninterested in sorting me or engaging me. If you thought there was the chance I was town wouldn't you want to, idk, engage me more directly? It's like you already KNOW I'm town and you're trying to test the waters to see if Gamma will win our 1v1

VOTE: Gamma

Not even attempting to sort either slot is kinda concerning here

He was not.

j/w but why does this post exist?