Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[fferyllt]

Hi guys

[fferyllt]

I'm ecstatic. I made killer hummus a while ago.

[fferyllt]

looks like we have the game to ourselves atm.

So are you scum?

[fferyllt]

You are in luck!

[fferyllt]

Sure hope so.

I sure hope you don't know so.

[fferyllt]

ha! 4 heaping tablespoons of chili garlic sauce in that hummus. It required warning labels.

[fferyllt]

Hi Eye Urn,

I'm fairly new to the site too. I have two completed games, including a Newbie game where I was scum. We won. I have fairly extensive game experience on other sites where the pools of players were much smaller and player meta was a useful part of the game analysis. I'm enjoying playing with players who are unknown quantities. It's much more challenging that way.

I don't like RVS either and so far haven't put down random votes in the games I've played here. I decided not to make this game a first, but I do agree with you about the potential usefulness of the random voting stage. When I put a vote down, it will be for a post-related reason.

[fferyllt]

Ah, ok.

The thing is though; this is a newbie game, I'd be highly surprised if we didn't have at least one or two heavily lurkers (regardless of alignment)

This was true in the first newbie game I played. Several players had to be replaced. I think one slot had to be replaced twice. IMO it can be disruptive to the flow of the game when too many players sub out.

[fferyllt]

my tentative reads so far are town to null.

I liked Revenus' question to Fropone. I liked Fropone's enthusiasm for this game starting. I like goodmorning's interest in moving things along. I liked Eye Url's self-intro.

Carey's self-deprecating "don't expect too much of me" is probably the thing that sticks out mos questionablyt atm.

[fferyllt]

er...it's readable, but I got "questionably" into the middle of "most" somehow.

My typos may be middling to horrific over the next few weeks. I have a new laptop with a larger keyboard than I am used to. And I type pretty fast. I've usually hit enter before the typos register.

[fferyllt]

Those are good observations about goodmorning. I'm awaiting her response to your post 35.

[fferyllt]

This is probably the best (most reliable) thing from your readslist, though I'm not sure I agree.

You asked for

tentative

reads, so I gave you my impressions at that point.

Since posting that, I'm apparently getting a different vibe from you about Fropome. He looks like newbish and rather paranoid town to me so far. And Revenus appears to want to continue the theoretical discussion about lurkers rather than get down to the business of mafia despite your encouragement to move from theory to practice. Though it's difficult to make that a solid call while players are still entering the thread and responding to what's been posted so far.

[fferyllt]

You asked for

tentative

reads, so I gave you my impressions at that point.

I didn't mean the rest of them were bad, just more easily faked. If you see Town motivation from a question/comment that's stronger than, say, seeing someone who tries to keep the game on track.
Though YMMV.

My mileage varies page by page. Sometimes post by post. I could go all self-meta about but I think the proof is in the pudding.

[fferyllt]

er...it's readable, but I got "questionably" into the middle of "most" somehow.

My typos may be middling to horrific over the next few weeks. I have a new laptop with a larger keyboard than I am used to. And I type pretty fast. I've usually hit enter before the typos register.

I get the feeling this post may have been a bit too deliberate. Town or Scum, it's online, and you have time to review your post. Not a strong read, but definitely something to refer to.

That was mostly an "incoming!" Whether I should review posts before submitting is not up for debate. Whether I do can be empirically tested, and in fact I've got a pile of recent posts on MS from the last couple weeks that testify to my lack of proofreading. I've left a trail of typos since switching to this laptop.

I haven't adapted to the pace of multi-week games yet. Nearly all the games I've played in the past had 12 to 24 hour game days and at times the pace gets brutal. I don't do a lot of review before moving on to the next thing. You can imagine me on the opposite side of your screen obsessively pressing the refresh button.

[fferyllt]

Good stuff, Eye. That is two tentative town reads for me.

[fferyllt]

I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.

Eye, I find the pace of these games, especially the newbie games to be very slow at times. That said, I also don't like Deras' or Carey's level of engagement so far.

[fferyllt]

Deras, I've seen some players link to off site games. If you want to, there's no restriction against it.

My wiki link button in my miniprofile leads to information about my completed games here. There are only two, so far, but I think at least my town game is fairly well represented. Getting a scum role for my first game on the site encouraged me to take full advantage of not having any site meta.

[fferyllt]

Deras do you have any reads so far?

[fferyllt]

Deras, I've seen some players link to off site games. If you want to, there's no restriction against it.

My wiki link button in my miniprofile leads to information about my completed games here. There are only two, so far, but I think at least my town game is fairly well represented. Getting a scum role for my first game on the site encouraged me to take full advantage of not having any site meta.

Ok, thanks. Then just in case anyone wants to stalk me, I used to play here http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewforum.php?f=24

Here are a couple of my old games, the first ones I played I think but there's more I'm sure:
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=11397
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=10707
http://forums.nexuswar.com/viewtopic.php?t=11111

You might also find a reference somewhere around there to me being probably the worst player ever, don't trust them

Oh my god a 90 page mini-game.

Deras are you familiar with the mafia abbreviation OMGUS?

[fferyllt]

Welcome, Mac!

VOTE: CareyHammer

That's an almost stunning lack of engagement in the game.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: unvote careyhammer

VOTE: goodmorning

I just went from being a little suspicious to being a lot suspicious.

[fferyllt]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

[fferyllt]

^^ hanging

[fferyllt]

It's page 4. If you're expecting a quotewall's worth of case, you're gonna have a bad time. Usually there's not enough substance for that sort of thing til page 7 or 8 at the earliest. I like I's train of thought, the case is a bit early in my opinion but Deras is one that I might have voted as a pressure-type vote to see if we could get him into the game a bit more quickly.

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.
I voted Fropome as explained in post 87.

Are you implying that newbs can't be Mafia? I'm going after Scum.

Newbs certainly can be mafia.

Fropome doesn't look at all scummy to me Deras' posts so far are almost classic newb and could be scum or town. I think he's under enough pressure atm, so I at least approve of your not adding to that bandwagon.

The stuff you're going after vs the stuff you're giving a pass looks pretty odd to me.

I think it's time to read some prior games.

[fferyllt]

Mac, my vote is mostly drawn by what I see as poor reasoning for goodmorning's vote on Fropome. A newbish player who drew a scum role is not likely to come into their first game off the bat at a new site and big up the town mistakes that helped his scum team win.

[fferyllt]

Alright, found it.
My post 33 and his response in post 35.
I thought that was awfully defensive for something I picked up on and went "huh". It's like if I were browsing Blockbuster (are those even open anymore?) and found a porno on the "Drama" shelf. When the sales guy threatens to have me arrested for going "huh, that's weird" THAT'S A SLIGHT OVERREACTION.

In other news, HI GOODMORNING! Good to see you in a non-nightless game this time.

EWWW NIGHTLESS IS GROSSSSSSSS

And then you put a vote down.

[fferyllt]

haha that was my first drunkpost at ms.

[fferyllt]

Okay so I re-read the whole thread and took notes (thanks
AlexisTay3: He has participated some, but not overly much (me=hypocrite much?) and hasn't commited to anything. I have him as neutral atm.

Haha, thanks for noting the similarity in our behaviour so far. I would dare say that it's really just my playstyle, at least from how I played in RL games. Conspiracy theorist in the making.

Also, you may take some time to learn how to engage in discussion when what you've mostly been doing is being the moderator for the past few years. It's kinda refreshing becoming a newb all over, wouldn't you say?

I don't know what the bolded means.

[fferyllt]

This game is going to be verrrryy interesting.
Maybe I won't really have to put on my IC hat?
That said, the debating over theory is an interesting study of playstyles but probably not doing much to advance the gamestate. I mean, keep being awesome and all that, but does anyone have any tentative reads?

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.
fffffffff is giving me Townfeels so far.
Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

I thought the meaning of my posts was pretty clear? Maybe that IC hat has fallen in front of your eyes.
What would you say town's job is?

Bit defensive, this.
Town's job is to play to their wincon, which is usually along the lines of "get rid of all threats".

Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

Luckily for you, I'm in a good mood today.

Hahaha, sorry. The only game of yours I've seen involved you either self-hammering or being modkilled, I don't remember, but I recall the rest of the playerlist being mildly annoyed with you.

I liked Revenus' question to Fropone.

This is probably the best (most reliable) thing from your readslist, though I'm not sure I agree.

Carey's self-deprecating "don't expect too much of me" is probably the thing that sticks out mos questionablyt atm.

On this: I would agree with you if it were from a Newbie, but it's not the most surprising thing ever coming from Carey. It's definitely something to look back at though.

Alexis Tay, at your service. I'm new to the site and and I really love the game, so please teach me a thing or two! I'm really into the whole theory about mafia mostly because I used to mod RL games.

I like that you're confident coming into this. That's also something to look back at.

I've usually hit enter before the typos register.

This strengthens my Townfeels.

On Fropome's point above, I believe you're trying to say that lurking simply makes it easier for the scum to find someone to target, but I also don't get how it is a great place for them to hide.

I'm sure someone's probably answered this, but basically it means they don't have to say anything that could incriminate them, PLUS Town is sometimes wary of lynching lurkers because 1. they could be Town (or even PRs) 2. It can look scummy to try and drive a lynch on a lurker or 3. they just plain forget about the lurkers.

I'm interested to know where goodmorning got his read on you from.

Gut, mostly. I've played a few Newbie games, I tend to trust my gut for the first couple pages.

Also, I'm kinda keen to understand what purpose a vague hedgy no-read note on me might serve.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later to see how it bounces off the rest.

Besides that I'm not sure I found her post particularly helpful, considering she seemed to redirect the subject to "replacements" and softened the import for town in the same move.

Sorry you feel I redirected. This is my first time ICing, I'm trying to figure out where the hat should go exactly.
As for the replacement issue: you're mostly right, 90% of the time replacements hurt the Town. But there are replacements that hurt Scum (I'm only harping on this because I was Scum in a game like that really, but eh.)

My point is that town have no reason to lurk, even newbie town who are afraid they might make mistakes, newb town mistakes can still be sources of useful information for town.

QFT.

Sorry for quotewalling you, it should get less bad as we get into the game.

Easy, you pick the person who's only trying to appear to not lurk. Like someone who drops in and posts a brief message on page 3 while only having 1 other post with a random vote and nothing of substance.

VOTE: Deras

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

Stuff about replacements.

For me, I take a step back for a day or two when someone new replaces in, time permitting, then I read the whole slot again. Some people are very good at turning reads around whether they should be or not.

I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.

1. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.
2. I think they do have basis, but in some cases... I don't know what I was trying to say here, just don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
3. It took me a little while to feel comfortable with having gut reads. Everyone differs. At any rate, it's not like a pg2 Townfeel makes you confTown.

Eye, I find the pace of these games, especially the newbie games to be very slow at times. That said, I also don't like Deras' or Carey's level of engagement so far.

THEY CAN BE SO GLACIAL
As far as activity levels go: everyone has lives. I had it said to me in an early game here that the expectation is for players to be on probably once a day in Newbie games (though more is of course preferable).

I haven't posted more because I'm not actually sure what kind of behaviour is scummy or not on the first day, specially with all the random stuff that flies around, and I haven't gotten any reads on anyone.

Just post. Don't worry about looking scummy. If you do something that looks scummy, better to find out D1 than D3. Plus there is at least one other person on your team; even if you die, you won't necessarily lose.
Some people form reads later than others. That's cool too. If you notice anything you think is unusual from a player, that's usually a good place to start.

While we have their past behaviour to go on, I wouldn't rely too much on it or they might start using that as an excuse. Whatever their experience is, it's probably still more than most of us.

Good point. How much

can

you trust meta? I've no idea.

Since I can just go around this forum and check other people's games, I wonder if it's allowed/recommended that I should link you guys to my old forum so you can check some of my games?

You're welcome to if you like. It's not really necessary, though, and 5 years is quite a long time.

Whoops. Another quote wall. Oh well.

Your post seems to be addressed to Deras, like you're describing his experience as a mod. Has he moderated mafia games?

[fferyllt]

Oh geez. I was working on an isolated read of goodmorning's posts earlier. Forgot that I had a bunch clicked for multiquote. The post I was replying to was AlexisTay's post 111.

[fferyllt]

Ah. Ok Interesting. I usually moderate somewhere between 6 and 18 games a year. The experience of watching games from the outside definitely brings something different to the table in terms of analysis. I guess I have played often enough that my detachment as a moderator hasn't become a part of my game as a player.

[fferyllt]

goodmorning ISO

post 45
goodmorning quotes my post 39 and says that it increases her townfeel re me. How does my post, which is alignment neutral, increase townfeel? Keep in mind that in the same post she thought some of my tentative reads were based on posts/comments of other players she thought were not alignment indicative.

Post 62:

In post 56, fferyllt wrote:I'm a little suspicious of goodmorning for getting a townfeel for me as she puts it. My early posts last night were semi-intentionally flaky. My tentative reads she mostly disagreed had basis. As an external observer, to the extent I can get my head there, I'd not have a strong read on someone with my posts at the time she made that post.


1. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.
2. I think they do have basis, but in some cases... I don't know what I was trying to say here, just don't get lulled into a false sense of security.
3. It took me a little while to feel comfortable with having gut reads. Everyone differs. At any rate, it's not like a pg2 Townfeel makes you confTown.

I soft-FOSed her about getting a townfeel so early and with what I see as little basis. She glosses over that and focuses on why her disagreement with the basis of some of my reads at that point doesn't mean we're not on the same team.

Other parts of that post make me uneasy as well. She's encouraging about the Deras bandwagon without adding a vote to it. It's subtle but could be encouraging more votes without getting her own hands dirty.

post 85 also sounds alarms and is the one that finally drew my vote. It feels like she's subtly recast Fropome's suspicion of her as a reason to vote him. But, that looks like an OMGUS vote despite the window dressing.

[fferyllt]

Meant to include post 90
That looks like flail.

[fferyllt]

As much as I am a bit suspicious of Revenus in his last few posts, this is a terrible reason to vote for someone. Bandwagons are not bad things; you need them to lynch people, and you need to lynch people to kill the scum. You clearly don't want the pressure placed on you and are trying to deflect it somewhere else in any way you can.

Eye, How is this alignment indicative?

[fferyllt]

@Carey, how about some reads?

[fferyllt]

Strongest town reads

Fropome - I'm a little concerned that Fropome hasn't posted in the last day+, but he said he's trying to adapt to the pace here at MS.

Revenus - going after Deras bothered me a little, although Deras did make some objectively scummy posts. I'm used to seeing posts like that from n00bs and I personally don't find stuff like that strongly alignment indicative for n00bs unless there is more of a pattern to it.

Unsure, leaning town

Eye Urn - On reread, his posts seem to break down into two themes: arguments for lynching lurkers and Deras. His posts about Deras kinda look like confirmation bias - like he's decided Deras is scum and is seeing most of what Deras posts as more evidence of scumminess.

AlexisTay - Not a lot of content here given the number of posts. lukewarm scumhunting, not a lot of follow-up. One thing that caught my eye in reread was the stuff about game-modding affecting gameplay such that he's in the habit of observing and coming up with conspiracy theories. I'm not sure how game-modding leads to coming up with conspiracy theories when playing. I'm not sure if this is meant to excuse future bad play or if in the context of mafia AlexisTay considers conspiracy theories to be a good thing.

Unsure

Mac - moar reads plz. And thanks again for replacing in!

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning - easy targets and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

[fferyllt]

some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago.

Although I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here; are you saying that even though he's doing genuinely scummy things, because he's a noob, they're not actually scummy?

How do YOU catch noob scum if you're going to excuse the scummy moves they make?

n00bs don't get unlimited excuses, but I do tend to go easy in the early part of a game.

tbh, I'm not sure how I'll apply that in a game in this format. In a game with 12/24 hour days, a n00b might get more of a pass than strictly deserved on day 1. In this format, a whole day 1 of "aww, just a n00b" would be absurd.

Deras already seems to be taking some of the criticisms on board, so the bar is pretty much raised a notch or two after his most recent post.

[fferyllt]

RE GM vs Carey, I obviously agree they both look scummy. In my prioritization, as town I always assume the current game day could be my last - i.e., I could be the NK. And I go after my scum read I feel will be hardest to lynch. We may very well lynch Carey today if the level of engagement doesn't improve. If so, whether I'm alive on day 2 or not the case I develop on the more difficult to lynch player will be a matter of record for the living town players to do with as they see fit.

[fferyllt]

Bit defensive, this.

Not at all, not when there's possibly three scum tells in your post.

Possible? Seems legit. Only three though? I must be improving.

It reminds me to look at that in your ISO later to see how it bounces off the rest.

I see you don't keep notes then.

Nope. It serves me better to be flexible in my reads. If I see a new piece of information that challenges my preconceptions, I can look back and decide whether it's a fluke or I was actually missing something. When I keep notes, I tend to assign all new information to the "fluke" category.
BUT. I read fairly quickly, so note-taking may be the better method for some.

Sorry you feel I redirected. This is my first time ICing, I'm trying to figure out where the hat should go exactly.

I don't feel redirected. You redirected, I didn't.

Let me rephrase: "Sorry that you feel that I redirected."

As for the replacement issue: you're mostly right, 90% of the time replacements hurt the Town. But there are replacements that hurt Scum (I'm only harping on this because I was Scum in a game like that really, but eh.)

Welp, I'm not sure you're not scum in this game, possibly facing the same problem. I'm bemused at how my willingness to talk about my scum experience tingles you in any way.

I doubt any replacements this early on would be of the hurting-anyone variety.
It's something I want to remember you doing, because it's fairly out of the ordinary.

Hello everyone. Nice to see someone familiar faces, and not so familiar faces too in this game.

MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT.
EXCITE
_{TRACEY YOU ARE CLEARLY WONDERFULLLLLLLLL}

I'm beginning to enjoy Revenus already, this sarcasm thing will be immensely entertaining.

Checked back and my vote is still on Carey? Not the worst place to put it, but a pretty useless one seeing as he's not reading.

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

^^ This vote, IMO is the thinly veiled OMGUS vote.

[fferyllt]

I sense hostility. I admit, it was reckless of me to put it forth so hard.

Putting your ideas forth hard is pro-town. provoking reactions you can evaluate is protown.

This post of yours looks scummy to me. You shouldn't be worried about going after someone "so hard" if you are town.

[fferyllt]

What do you make of it?

[fferyllt]

From both of you, I want to hear why you think that post is flail. I personally find it to be one of my less flaily posts ever.

Let's have a look.

It's page 4. If you're expecting a quotewall's worth of case, you're gonna have a bad time. Usually there's not enough substance for that sort of thing til page 7 or 8 at the earliest.

^^ comes off defensive and is interesting in light of your demands for others to explain themselves.

I like I's train of thought, the case is a bit early in my opinion but Deras is one that I might have voted as a pressure-type vote to see if we could get him into the game a bit more quickly.

Here's your post where you complemented Eye's thought process.

In post 53, Eye Urn wrote

:Easy, you pick the person who's only trying to appear to not lurk. Like someone who drops in and posts a brief message on page 3 while only having 1 other post with a random vote and nothing of substance.

VOTE: Deras

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

I said this looked like you were encouraging the bandwagon without joining it, ie keeping your own hands clean. What you've said doesn't dispute that characterization.

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.
I voted Fropome as explained in post 87.

The comment about Carey makes no sense. If he reads thread he'll see the pressure. And in fact he's already reacted to the pressure.

Are you implying that newbs can't be Mafia? I'm going after Scum.

Here you throw out a passive-aggressive looking counter. I don't like to use the word "mischaracterize in mafia because it gets overused. But, nowhere have I implied that newbs can't be Mafia.

So yeah, I'm sticking with flail - a bunch of words that don't clarify your position and that in part look like an attempt to pin a position on me (newbs can't be scum) that I haven't espoused.

[fferyllt]

It's page 4. If you're expecting a quotewall's worth of case, you're gonna have a bad time. Usually there's not enough substance for that sort of thing til page 7 or 8 at the earliest.

^^ comes off defensive and is interesting in light of your demands for others to explain themselves.

Explanation, yes. Lots of explanation, no.

I like I's train of thought, the case is a bit early in my opinion but Deras is one that I might have voted as a pressure-type vote to see if we could get him into the game a bit more quickly.

Here's your post where you complemented Eye's thought process.

It's a good connection to make, watching for active lurking is a good start to scumhunting.

In post 53, Eye Urn wrote

:Easy, you pick the person who's only trying to appear to not lurk. Like someone who drops in and posts a brief message on page 3 while only having 1 other post with a random vote and nothing of substance.

VOTE: Deras

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

I said this looked like you were encouraging the bandwagon without joining it, ie keeping your own hands clean. What you've said doesn't dispute that characterization.

No. The thought process is a good one (i.e., looking for active lurkers). That said, at the time it was a bit too soon to be looking for them. I don't intend encouragement of the bandwagon on Deras as a good "active lurking" bandwagon, because I wouldn't say that it is. I would say that it is a good "pressure" bandwagon.
Is this finally clear?

I unvoted Carey because even though it is a decent vote theory-wise, it's useless to pressure someone who's not going to see that he's being pressured.
I voted Fropome as explained in post 87.

The comment about Carey makes no sense. If he reads thread he'll see the pressure. And in fact he's already reacted to the pressure.

At any rate I have a slight Townread on him now so the point is moot. But I would dispute that he was reading the thread in any seriousness.

Are you implying that newbs can't be Mafia? I'm going after Scum.

Here you throw out a passive-aggressive looking counter. I don't like to use the word "mischaracterize in mafia because it gets overused. But, nowhere have I implied that newbs can't be Mafia.

You accused me of going after "easy newb targets". This does indeed imply that you are not thinking of them as Scum.
I am, I will repeat, going after Scum.
I'm not going to give people a pass just because they're new.
(Meanwhile, you were going after Carey, an obvious sitting duck.)

So yeah, I'm sticking with flail - a bunch of words that don't clarify your position and that in part look like an attempt to pin a position on me (newbs can't be scum) that I haven't espoused.

If my position isn't clear by now you haven't been reading my posts.

I'll grant that you have explained your position a little better since post 90. In asking me to explain why it looks like flail, your later posts are irrelevant to my impression of this post.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, I'll sigbet anyone, the Scum are in {AT3, fff, Fro, Deras}.

Now off to pull out all the questions Fro has left unanswered.

Also to clarify my previous post: "This does indeed imply that you are not thinking of them as Scum." is interesting, as it's something I should have thought about earlier.

I have a town read on Fropome as of last night. I still need to comb carefully through his posts made today, along with Alexis' posts. Something is bothering me there.

Deras is way down in my unsure pile, very near the scum line. His last couple of posts have moved him up a bit. If he keeps it up, he'll stay there until I have more data to analyze.

[fferyllt]

lol

[fferyllt]

AlexisTay

104

This bothers me. It bothered me a bit that Eye jumped into the fray trying to clear up a possible misunderstanding between GM and Fropome. In general, I think it's better for players to sort stuff out on their own.

Alexis calling this out as a good thing is kinda weird.

"conspiracy theory" keeps coming up in his posts. He's characterizing it as a marker of his game. I'm not sure the connections he's drawing make sense. 105 114

133Some originality in analysis of Fropome. Most of the rest looks like rework.

151 self-deprecation, expectation setting/lowering?

155Immediate backdown when GM pushes back. "reckless to put it forth so hard".

I push back at this and his response is 158 "I'm not worried about going after someone "so hard". I'm just really thrown off by GM's hostility."

This feels off.

[fferyllt]

The main thing that is bothering me about Fropome is his apparent lack of paranoia about me.

Also his followyness wrt my analysis of GM. Though, due to timing I may not be leaving much unturned ground. Also, I was misremembering, thinking there were more "^^This" type posts than there actually were, and he does appear to have some analysis of his own that isn't a reprocessing of what other people have said.

There are a couple of things I need to mull over here, I think

[fferyllt]

Taking a break from case making to point out that I found his backing down there to have a townish feel. Scum would (IMO) be more likely to step up to bat. Weakness is an inherently Town characteristic, it comes from a place of being unsure.

I don't know if that makes sense, my brain's kind of melted from actually making a case with glee rather than revulsion.

That's interesting.

I am suspicious of too easy of a back-down. Most of my major episodes of head-butting have been with players who turned out to be town.

[fferyllt]

You should iso my posts in that game GM. I will never play another scum game at MS in that vein. I slammed the door to acting like a diffident and inexperienced player the instant that game ended.

[fferyllt]

Interesting.

From my perspective, this is the first game at MS where I've really felt like I'm playing "my" town game. The lovers game had an odd design and was nightless. I was feeling my way trying to figure out what

was

protown in that game.

The proof is in the pudding. Once I flip that at least will be established.

[fferyllt]

People expounding on my towniness early in a game raises my hackles, though. I'd rather have some genuine suspicion and paranoia than a ton of "town reads". Because there are scum somewhere among the folks who give me town reads usually.

The lovers game gave me fits. Though in that game the only person who consistently called me suspicious throughout the game was scum.

Different site. Different meta.

[fferyllt]

Jesus christ. Wondering if I should try to tackle that in one post or in several.

On a quick scan it looks like you missed my comments about Rev. I know I made some when I posted my overall reads. He's in my town pile but it's not a secure place there.

Nobody gets a secure place on day 1.

[fferyllt]

I've removed the spoilers here.

Actually, I thought we weren't supposed to use spoilers in this game.

@fffffff: Just meta'd. Very interesting and not at all inconsistent with your play here.

10: The jokey "So, are you Scum?" Maybe I'm pulling confirmation bias here, but it just strikes me wrong.

This post right here is why my eyelid twitched when you said you had a townfeel. My early posts were jokey. No questiion. Fropome and I know each other from elsewhere, btw. These posts were hellos/light sparring to see how he reacted and I imagine his to me were the same. I was happy with the results at the time.

37: This list of her tentative light Townreads mostly consists of behaviours that can be displayed by either side, several of which she displayed as Scum in that other Newbie game.

Yep. hence tentative.

39: This post initially gave me slight (though granted, playstyle-based) Townfeels. Posting without reading is not something Scum often do. She has before. (Also, in one of my responses, I expressed the opinion that this was alignment-indicative (which I don't feel now). She ignored this.)

claiming to get a townfeel off that post imo is weird and possibly scummy. Like looking for reasons to say "town" buddying up scummy. I thought I said that it is NOT alignment indicative. Will get back to this later.

46: I might be imagining a bit of tiptoeing. I might not.

caginess for sure. You'd jangled my scumdar by then. Oh and look...cautious comment about Revenus.

50: Same as 39.

Another "townfeel" on a null post? And you wonder why I've gotten a scum vibe here?

54: It's not sheeping really but that's the closest word I can think of.

So, getting a town feel off a post is sheeping? Is that what you'd been doing?

56: Suddenly we're suspicious where we weren't before with no reasons to feel that way that we didn't have the last couple of times we posted.

I have no idea what this means. At that point in the thread, I had enough off notes to wonder if it was a pattern and I put out my suspicion to see how you reacted.

69: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with OMGUS

.

The beginning of what appears to be an outbreak of OMGUS votes.

82: The beginning of what appears to be a loving relationship with the "lurker=Scum" mentality. (In case someone doesn't know why this is a scumtell: it is much easier to accuse someone with no content than to try to find fake scumtells in the content of active townies.)

Interesting. I don't like lurking but I don't automatically default to "lurker = scum". I've been pretty patient with Mac IIRC. Carey's behavior IMO goes beyond ordinary lurking.

85: Votes me, no appended reason.

I think it was pretty clear what drew my vote at that point.

88: "Lack of case on Fro" when the post before was my case on Fro. "indicating you liked Eye's case/vote" when I stated that I liked his thought process. "going after low-hanging newb fruit" when the object of the game is to go after Scum, no matter their join date. "Going after low-hanging newb fruit" also implies that she

knows

they are not Scum.

It implies no such thing. n00bs are hard to read

because

they tend to react in scummy ways no matter what their alignment. I take my time in assessing n00bs for that reason.

92: Compare this with her later feelings, particularly those pertaining to the Fe/Deras thing. Even with no new developments in the situation she gets much harder on this point each time she revisits it.

I had a solid town read on Fropome at that point. At the moment the only thing shaking that is a certain lack of paranoia about me.

[

post=#4828816]96[/post]: Unmitigated WIFOM. Also ignores the point of my "interesting" read of it even though it's been rehashed to death by that point.

You may have a point here. It would be a first in my experience but it's not completely out of the question that a n00b scum would make a big deal about an earlier successful scum game.

125: Assumes 39 is alignment neutral (which it is, but at the time wasn't 100%). Assumes I was calling her tentative reads not alignment indicative when I said "they are indeed usually Town, but good Scum can fake it." Ignores 2/3 of the points I made in explanation. Harder on the issues from 92. Accuses me of OMGUS, despite the fact that my suspicions of Fro predate his suspicions of me (unless you think he was suspicious of me in 35, which is questionable).

I thought he was suspicious of you in 35. As for the rest...there's nothing to refute there IMO.

126: Made me sad. Also fails to provide reasoning as to why she thinks it is flails (yes, she's done it since, I'm getting there, she should have done it here).

I think this is a style thing. I make short posts to get reactions. WoTs come after I have the reactions. I'm not likely to change this style of play unless I find that it doesn't get results. So far, it's gotten results. I think a look back at my lovers game will show the same pattern of push-analyzie-push-analyze.

129: Comes after several people have given reads, and doesn't really cover much new ground (if any). In one sentence accuses me of going after easy targets while staying off of the... easy... targets? SEEMS LEGIT

.I think you'll find that I've telegraphed most of those reads in earlier posts. IIRC the only one where I had a lot of recent posts to think about was Alexis'. And yes, I've made the point more than once that it looked like you were ENCOURAGING a bandwagon while staying off it yourself. TBH, I think you can find that I've done something similar, though, and that would be a more legitimate argument - I'm not unhappy with votes on Carey, though I've chosen to focus on you.

Seriously, ask yourself: Who are the easiest targets in this game? Carey and Deras, right? Who's been going after them again? JUST SAYING. JUST. SAYING

.

Not sure what your point is here.

132: Who goes easy on someone acting scummy? SCUM

Who initially goes easy on someone acting n00b? Someone who has mislynched a lot of n00bs. n00bs get better with game experience and pointers. That's what we're all here playing for, right? If helping n00bs improve isn't the reason why we're playing this game, then I'm playing the wrong game.

135: Gave me an "interesting." All the "Oh no, I don't know if I'll still be alive, oh darn" is just trying a little too hard. Plus it's basically saying "I'm just gonna go after one scumread at a time." Why? Can't come up with enough fakery for two?

Bit of inconsistency here. Make up your mind. Am I going after too few players or too many?

145: Fluff.

Not fluff. I'd called your vote-post a thinly veiled omgus without linking to it IIRC. That was to document my earlier comment.

157: This is actually something of a Towntell. Poor lonely thing.

This comment right here, this is where the level of condescension dripping from your posts goes critical mass. I'm going to try to take the rest of your post seriously, but it's not going to be easy.

175: Rather than just saying "I found it defensive and didn't like the Fe/Deras thing or your lack of vote on Carey," took the game back almost 100 posts and recycled arguments that had been responded to.

You need to decide whether you want short and sweet or detailed and thorough.

177: This is one of my posts. I am chronicling it here as the "OH SHIT" moment that made me do a complete 180.

How nice.

179: Suddenly considering other suspects, so as to open up other potential mislynches.

Lots of posts by other players happened while we barked at each other. I got around to them. Once again, make up your mind. Am I scummy for focusing only on you? Or am I scummy for widening my focus? Short answer, I'm not scummy. I'm scumhunting.

181: This is classic nervous Scum trying to masquerade as relaxed and groovy Town.

Get me lynched and we'll find out. Town can have a town bandwagon to analyze along with a whole bunch of reads from a confirmed town player.

183: Suddenly all the players have little things that "bother" her. ALL OF THEM (except Rev, I suppose) (interesting) (and Mac, but I don't know if he really counts yet)

Go back and read my list of reads. There was stuff that bothered me about every player, including my town reads in that list. Except possibly Fropome. I expected him to come back to the thread and get the heebies about my going after his nemesis. he didn't.

Let's have a look:
me - lots of things.
Fro - lack of paranoia(!) and similar reads to others (HALF THE PLAYERLIST HAS THE SAME GODDAMNED LIST)
Fe- stepping in on the 33/35 thing
AT3 - approval of Fe stepping in and also his backing down
Carey - lurking and uselessness
Deras - lurking and absorbing tips on gameplay which sets his bar higher for her
Mac - nothing, he's posted all of four times
Rev - nothing (interestinggggg)[/spoiler]

Who's Fe again? And did you find my niggles about Rev? Or did you not look?

I await some response eagerly, though I want to urge that we can suspect each other and still be nice. It's not a scumtell to back off of something if it's only frustrating you and not actually accomplishing anything.

Ditto. If I come out of this with a town read on you I'll consider it a positive. It's going to take some doing, though, given where I am at right now.

deleted the stuff addressed to other players beyond this point.

[fferyllt]

Ah. Thanks.

[fferyllt]

I rechecked the rules on page 1. looks like spoilers are ok in this game. They were forbidden in my first newbie game.

[fferyllt]

Yeah, it depends on the mod. Tracey's cool with them probably because she walls often. chk is a pretty brief player, so I'm guessing he doesn't see the need or else they pissed him off for some reason.

I'll go through the rebuttal to my case on you probably tomorrow, I'm kinda tired and there's quite a bit that I saw to respond to.
I can do this one off the top of my head: I found 39 and 50 slightly Town-indicative until I meta'd you, and when I said "I think it is alignment indicative" I kind of expected a Town!you to go "really? How so?" but you didn't. At the time I felt you were Town so I kind of shrugged it off, but it makes more sense from a Scum alignment.

Answers aren't enough. I need reactions.

[fferyllt]

"How so?" gets an answer.

"That pings", "makes me uneasy", etc. gets a reaction.

[fferyllt]

What I'm saying is that I expected you to react to my saying that I thought it was alignment indicative, but you didn't even bring it up (that I said it was alignment indicative).

And paring down quotes is par for the course, even suggested in this forum (just for future reference. I know some people have been quoting my quotewalls and it's totally cool if you break them down and take out the bits you're not responding to/interested in). I keep forgetting to say that, so now I've said it.

Where did you say it was alignment indicative?

[fferyllt]

Yeah, it depends on the mod. Tracey's cool with them probably because she walls often. chk is a pretty brief player, so I'm guessing he doesn't see the need or else they pissed him off for some reason.

I'll go through the rebuttal to my case on you probably tomorrow, I'm kinda tired and there's quite a bit that I saw to respond to.
I can do this one off the top of my head: I found 39 and 50 slightly Town-indicative until I meta'd you, and when I said "I think it is alignment indicative" I kind of expected a Town!you to go "really? How so?" but you didn't. At the time I felt you were Town so I kind of shrugged it off, but it makes more sense from a Scum alignment.

Answers aren't enough. I need reactions.

I have to echo GM's "huh?" at this.

My reply to her didn't make it clear?

How about this from my second game to finish? That post provoked a couple pages worth of reactions and interactions, and resulted in my getting a town read on the player I quoted in that post. When the interaction started, I thought he might be scum.

[fferyllt]

I'd also like for someone else to compare my first game to this one so far, and see if you agree with GM. I may be the individual least aware of exactly what my scum game consists of, but to me, there is very little resemblance between my play in this game and in that one.

It's pretty much horrifying, in fact, since I was making no effort at all to even emulate my town game there. That game was a blank canvas.

[fferyllt]

Actually, GM, how about some specific similarities in my play between the two games?

[fferyllt]

Yeah, I want to sleep on this too.

Thatt huge disorganized "case" was such a huge lot of work that I want to think it's more likely to be a town player's product than a scum player's work. As scum, I would have built the mos tight, succinct, consistent, comprehensible case I could manage. Not some huge rambling WoT.

But, what I'd do as scum, and what others may do as scum are not always identical, or I'd have no trouble spotting scum in most games.

[fferyllt]

Post count is not a good way to differentiate my scum game from my town game. I can and usually have posted a ton when I am scum.

[fferyllt]

One thing fferylt; please slow down on the quote walls with goodmorning. If you can, can you summarize a case on him? The speed at which you and him are interacting is really making it hard for me to catch up on the argument. You guys have about half the posts in the game combined.

I think my iso is a good summary:

125[/post and [post]126

The post Deras made highlighting her "scum won't dare NK me" thing also was interesting. I actually made a similar statement when I was last scum. Someone pointed out to me that in the prior scum game I'd played about 6 months earlier I'd made an almost identical statement.

Town point-wise, as I said last night, the sheer time and effort involved in that WoT case looks like something town would do more than scum would. I'm reading one of her scum games this morning to see how her case-building in it compares to that post.

[fferyllt]

The main thing that is bothering me about Fropome is his apparent lack of paranoia about me.

Lol, I pretty much got what I wanted to see from you quite early on. I'm slightly paranoid, but I know if you're town you're an asset and I'm giving it more time for that to develop. Later in the game I may start to get more paranoid, but for now there are scummy players around and you don't look like one of them.

Also his followyness wrt my analysis of GM. Though, due to timing I may not be leaving much unturned ground. Also, I was misremembering, thinking there were more "^^This" type posts than there actually were, and he does appear to have some analysis of his own that isn't a reprocessing of what other people have said.

There are a couple of things I need to mull over here, I think

I agreed re: gm, mot follow. And come on, I prodded this exchange into life with GM after you were initially quite satisfied with the townyness of his post. That made me a little paranoid, but then you "sheeped" my read about GM's read of you and that too made me wonder, but for now my point was relevant and valid, and your agreement/recognition is what I would expect anyway.

I guess it's my turn to be the paranoid one then :/

[fferyllt]

"It's woo, it's gut, it's ethereal". Awesome case. Nothing to dispute.

Jesus.

If you are town you should go stand in a corner or something. Horrible.

[fferyllt]

Micro 137: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

GM replaced in and was scum, scum win. Not seeing the sorts of long-ass cases GM is making here. Not seeing the repetitive hectoring. Not seeing the appeals to the aether.

But, it doesn't look like she came under much prresure early in the game either. Also, way lower volume of posts and wow...better, tighter, more well thought out argumentation as scum apparently than as town.

Inconclusive, but it adds a little weight to the theory that GM is being terribad town.

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

[fferyllt]

Ok, since GM didn't comment on this, I'll ask quite directly, and offer anyone the chance to answer:

Why would player A ask player B about player B's read of player A and only player A?

I cannot come up with an answer that satisfies me other than player A is scum and is trying to gauge how well they are coming across.

Back to work for now.

I don't like to answer for others, but I have seen a player do this as town pretty frequently. I don't understand what she thinks she gains from asking the question, but she's pretty good at figuring out some town players to cooperate with early in a game. OTOH, based purely on odds the player I am thinking of should usually be right about a fair number of her town reads.

[fferyllt]

Although I have a fairly meta-based game, I am distrustful of meta from games I didn't play. It's hard after the fact to put myself into the game. The questions and observations other players made may not be what I would have posted at that point at all. To be useful meta has to be both deep and varied, and for me it's better if it is experienced meta. That's been one huge learning from playing in an environment where thare are gazillions of prior games to look at, but very little personal experience with players.

This is probably good for my game. It forces me to work in the realm of objective and relative tells here.

[fferyllt]

FIVE MINUTE POST GO

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

Sorry that gut doesn't float your boat. :[

gut is convenient when you can't build a case. It's safe as scum, especially on a player you don't know at all, and that the majority of players have no experience with.

I'm not totally dissing gut. Gut points me in the right direction frequently. I don't try to peddle my gut to other players, though, not without supporting data.

[fferyllt]

@ Mac - thanks for the nightless reminder. That changes things. I originally read that game a few days ago knowing it was nightless. When I reread it this morning, I focused on the iso and didn't remember that.

[fferyllt]

@Mac again, "low hanging new fruit" - IME newbs drop scummy looking posts no matter what their alignment. IMO it takes time to assess their posts, and for me it comes down to relative tells - is the body of their work pro-town? An occasional scummy sounding clanger is not always a good indicator.

Deras is a good example. He's dropped what I consider some classic objective tells, but he's also showing a protown PoV in the questions he's asking and observations he's making. GM's "attaboy" about Eye's post where he voted Deras was a big ping for me. I know what she's said about the post since then. It doesn't erase what that post looks like standing on its own.

[fferyllt]

On a philosophical note, I hardly ever see experienced scum drop classic objective tells. The evolution of objective tells is almost an Hegelian progression. You negate something, negate it again and you don't get back to your starting place.

[fferyllt]

What easy targets have I attacked? I wouldn't call GM an easy target. Do you mean Carey? Although I didn't stay on him, I do think that pressure-voting is an effective way to get a lurker to engage.

[fferyllt]

That said, Carey's engagement since some mounting pressure has been pretty terrible, amounting to "I've posted nothing but null fluff!" invoking V/LA without having made it official, etc.

[fferyllt]

My read of Deras is not null leaning scum any more, and I did not go after him the way I would an experienced player with that sort of read.

Mac, if you've read my first game, then you know your characterization there is way off the mark. In my first game I did not indicate I was a newb to mafia, I referred to prior experience and I let the other players go along their merry way when they decided I was relatively inexperienced. I played a clean, careful game and most of town had me high in their townie list. By day 3 one town player was starting to wonder about me based on something I did intentionally because I'd do it as town, too.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

[fferyllt]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

[fferyllt]

It looks really bad when taken out of context. I believe she's referring to 2/4 scum being in a list talking about a sigbet? But still. it's a poor post and I'd like her to explain it more. I'd also expect a bit better from her than that if I'm honest.

What? I think you're talking about a different post.

[fferyllt]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

Well, that's not what I said. Attacking GM based on her pressuring people for dropping scumtells is anti-town.

That's not what she did, and it's not what I did either.

She praised another player for pressuring a n00b about an ancient scumtell that is hardly useful anymore except to identify n00bs IME, while staying away from that bandwagon herself. And that is what I called her on.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

[fferyllt]

The attaboy is in post 62

It's still pretty early on, but I like the thought process.

[fferyllt]

Mac, the thing that made me suspicious was that it looks like encouragement while distancing. Though I think if she had put a vote down at that point I would also be suspicious because as an IC I expect that she's had experience both with inexperienced players and with players who have learned mafia in different environments where different rules of thumb have developed.

[fferyllt]

What's different from that to this?

Good stuff, Eye. That is two tentative town reads for me.

You mean besides it being about getting a read on Eye? Though I didn't agree with all his analysis I saw it as coming from a town perspective given what I've learned so far about his mafia background.

[fferyllt]

What's different from that to this?

Good stuff, Eye. That is two tentative town reads for me.

You mean besides it being about getting a read on Eye? Though I didn't agree with all his analysis

I saw it as coming from a town perspective given what I've learned so far about his mafia background.

The bolded bit can be summarised with "I like the thought process." This is as much an "attaboy" post as GM's.

If you leave out the

"Though I didn't agree with all his analysis part"

, perhaps.

[fferyllt]

That is irrelevant. You still saw it coming from a town perspective. You liked the thought process.

So you see the two posts as equivalent?

[fferyllt]

84

Vote: Fropome

Was considering Deras, but this one is a bit better IMO.

It was after this post that I voted her. Mentions the two most n00bish players in the game by their account, votes one and said she considered voting the other.

[fferyllt]

If you still claim to find our actions equivalent to mine, then I think I'm done discussing this topic with you.

[fferyllt]

Awesome.

Pile them on. This bandwagon is going to be useful I hope.

[fferyllt]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

This was my case.

[fferyllt]

Or at least part of it. And you'll notice when I voted her.

I'm going to take a day away from this thread and then come back to it with hopefully fresh and unjaundished eyes on Tuesday night or Wednesday.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

[fferyllt]

Micro 137: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

GM replaced in and was scum, scum win. Not seeing the sorts of long-ass cases GM is making here. Not seeing the repetitive hectoring. Not seeing the appeals to the aether.

But, it doesn't look like she came under much prresure early in the game either. Also, way lower volume of posts and wow...better, tighter, more well thought out argumentation as scum apparently than as town.

Inconclusive, but it adds a little weight to the theory that GM is being terribad town.

I didn't see this theory get developed. Did I miss something?

Could you outline it for me please?

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

I'll take the bet that I am not a member of the scum team. No problem. As for GM, I would love to write her sig.

I don't think I presented it as a theory per se, but I did refer to what was starting to coalesce in my thoughts before I unvoted GM...I think. Maybe I said something about how ill-formed her case was after I unvoted.

GM's case on me was vehement and kinda short on facts, though quite long. She took a ton of my posts and interpreted them about as negatively as was possible. In some cases she was recasting them as scummy even though after they were posted she'd mentioned her townfeel. I think it's mostly reaction to me - the pressure I put on her starting with my vote.

In reading other games, I found that the length of her case was unusual. Its ill formed spaghetti-against-the-wall approach didn't look all that much like her scum games that I had time to review. And as we went back and forth, I found myself getting pretty temperish here and there, which once my temper cooled made me pretty cautious about how I was interpreting her posts.

I think there's a really big chasm between our game styles. Her style, with the cute all caps end notes, the condescension, and other emotional curlicues annoys me. And I am reacting pretty negatively to that, which doesn't help in getting to an objective read of how she's reacted to the pressure I put on her.

But that WoT case looks townish awful so I've upgraded her to unsure.

Now I'm thinking about who avoided those skirmishes, and whether anyone appeared to be trying to fan the flames, and from which direction.

[fferyllt]

@Fropome, your game is a little different here. The differences became more apparent to me after you started posting again after your weekend break. I know that you've been studying games and thinking about how to play effectively so I'm cautious about calling different "scummy". Prior to this, I've thought your play was a little distant and removed, if that makes sense. I don't think I've seen you go after another player the way you have GM.

Also, where did GM and I make peace. I'd say that I have backed off a bit and am trying to widen my view now. But, I get no sense of peace made from anything that GM has posted.

[fferyllt]

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

I meant Fropome and Deras as the easy n00b targets.

I thought I'd made that clear.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

He's played about 4-5 games IIRC and this is his first game here at MS.

I think he is on his way to mafia awesomeness, but he is still a n00b.

[fferyllt]

If you say so, but he's pretty capable and GM appreciated that early on about pretty much everyone here.

Why did you drop your vote from GM?

Because I didn't think her rambling WoT about me looked like other scum games I've reviewed. I upgraded my read to unsure. I don't leave votes on people I have as unsure. It's difficult. I have 2-3 of her posts that just plain look scummy to me and I'm weighing that against the terribad-town feel I got from the WoT.

[fferyllt]

I know I'm not exactly sweetness and light.

The level of venom in this game is reaching offputting levels.

[fferyllt]

Eye Urn how are you feeling about GM these days?

[fferyllt]

hello newbies and SE's and IC's
so, 14 pages already for a newbie game, you guys are going good.
let me check up for a bit and will jump in right after...

What are your thoughts?

[fferyllt]

GM, you are showing a tendency to go after people as being scummy who are going after you as scum.

[fferyllt]

What makes you positive that there is one scum between SE's and IC?

[fferyllt]

What makes you positive that there is one scum between SE's and IC?

Becuz, I believe that MOD will not give Scum flag to noobs without having an experience player in it.
Imagine 2 scum Newbies V/s 2 SE & IC and rest of the town?? that is highly unlikely to me. Again, that's how I see it.

The roles aren't assigned randomly?

[fferyllt]

Found a newbie game where the scum were an SE and an IC. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4827816

Not sure how many games I want to search to see if your "highly unlikely" is statistically conceivable.

[fferyllt]

IOW let's scumhunt.

[fferyllt]

This game feels stalled out somehow. I wanted to wait for more content from ArcAngel9 before trying to dig into more ISOs.

ArcAngel, do your reads change at all based on the role assignments being random?

[fferyllt]

Stalling is useful as long as it doesn't last too long, gives you a chance to catch your breath and reread/ISO if you have time.

Is Ffery is a new player? but her profile is created long time ago...

"A long time ago."

I drew scum in my first newbie game at the beginning of January, came down with the flu and my father in law passed away in February. I stuck with that one game until it completed, and then started playing multiple games. I have 2 completed games here now, and 3 in progress. I'm alive in two of them, including this one.

I have a lot of other-site forum mafia experience, though.

[fferyllt]

Stalling is useful as long as it doesn't last too long, gives you a chance to catch your breath and reread/ISO if you have time.

Is Ffery is a new player? but her profile is created long time ago...

"A long time ago."

I drew scum in my first newbie game at the beginning of January, came down with the flu and my father in law passed away in February. I stuck with that one game until it completed, and then started playing multiple games. I have 2 completed games here now, and 3 in progress. I'm alive in two of them, including this one.

I have a lot of other-site forum mafia experience, though.

Oh okay, 3 games. I would say, you still farily new.
But, let me tell you something about this site. the games are here not the same as on other sites, you should be knowing that already!!
I really liked the way how you're looking at every possible way to suspect from almost all the posts, which makes you pro-town but the players on this site posts like hell, and some of their don't even look town to you. So, it is okay to get reads the way usually do but it is also important how you should change especially when you get to different type of games, Games where you have double mafia teams, cult leaders, wear wolf groups etc. People on this site follows different strategies to narrow downlist for scum hunting that includes "Mass claims" as well.

So, when i look at a newbie game, I don't think any MOD would think a bunch newbies can handle the entire mafia team on their own, Although the player role selection is random, it seems obvious to me that one of the SE's or IC's may be a possible scum (I would say high possibility), and all of them won't be scum too, if they do, it will be an one sided game.

I don't always see things in this way, like i said, different games different strategies...

I'm used to playing diverse and multifaction games, including cult games. So yeah, I understand that different strategies are needed depending on what we learn about the game formats.

But these games have a set format with just a few variations.

I gave you a link to a recent game where both scum were experienced players (the IC and an SE). I don't think we should approach this game assuming that one scum will be from group A and the other from group B.

That's why I want to know if you would change your list of who is scummy if you looked at the whole roster and picked the 2 or 3 most scummy players without thinking about whether they are SE/IC or not.

[fferyllt]

^^ "these games" being Newbie games.

[fferyllt]

GM, you are showing a tendency to go after people as being scummy who are going after you as scum.

OK. I can't help it if the people I think are displaying scummy behaviour happen to be calling me Scum. It happens sometimes.
I'd really like to clarify that I don't OMGUS. Ever. As any alignment. And I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to hint at such.

I can't know what's going on internally in your thoughts. All I can see is what is in your posts.

My main reason for posting that was awareness raising in case the pattern was not on your radar. I'm leaning slightly town on you at the moment.

[fferyllt]

Stalling is useful as long as it doesn't last too long, gives you a chance to catch your breath and reread/ISO if you have time.

Is Ffery is a new player? but her profile is created long time ago...

"A long time ago."

I drew scum in my first newbie game at the beginning of January, came down with the flu and my father in law passed away in February. I stuck with that one game until it completed, and then started playing multiple games. I have 2 completed games here now, and 3 in progress. I'm alive in two of them, including this one.

I have a lot of other-site forum mafia experience, though.

Oh okay, 3 games. I would say, you still farily new.
But, let me tell you something about this site. the games are here not the same as on other sites, you should be knowing that already!!
I really liked the way how you're looking at every possible way to suspect from almost all the posts, which makes you pro-town but the players on this site posts like hell, and some of their don't even look town to you. So, it is okay to get reads the way usually do but it is also important how you should change especially when you get to different type of games, Games where you have double mafia teams, cult leaders, wear wolf groups etc. People on this site follows different strategies to narrow downlist for scum hunting that includes "Mass claims" as well.

So, when i look at a newbie game, I don't think any MOD would think a bunch newbies can handle the entire mafia team on their own, Although the player role selection is random, it seems obvious to me that one of the SE's or IC's may be a possible scum (I would say high possibility), and all of them won't be scum too, if they do, it will be an one sided game.

I don't always see things in this way, like i said, different games different strategies...

I'm used to playing diverse and multifaction games, including cult games. So yeah, I understand that different strategies are needed depending on what we learn about the game formats.

But these games have a set format with just a few variations.

I gave you a link to a recent game where both scum were experienced players (the IC and an SE). I don't think we should approach this game assuming that one scum will be from group A and the other from group B.

That's why I want to know if you would change your list of who is scummy if you looked at the whole roster and picked the 2 or 3 most scummy players without thinking about whether they are SE/IC or not.

I know where you getting to.. I am not going to say it is not a posssiblity.
But like i said, both the newbies can't be scum which is highly unlikley, but both the scum can be in SE & IC which is likely but these could be pretty much assumptions what i can confirmly look at right now that there is at least one scum in out of 2 SE's and 1 IC, which narrow down my hunt to 3 people out of 9, Once we take down the first scum, and based on how the bussing or budding went throuh, it is possible to assume the other scum easily.

Do you think the IC was lying when she said that the role assignments are random?

[fferyllt]

That was my point, actually.

[fferyllt]

ArcAngel have you played a Newbie game before this one?

[fferyllt]

In this game, neither scum slot was SE/IC.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26035

I'm sorry ArcAngel, I almost wonder if we're talking past each other. It is not a false theory. Two newbies could randomly have drawn scum roles in this or any other game newbie game. It's really bothering me that you're not willing to consider that as a possibility.

I'd really like for you to address this: If you don't worry about whether a player is in the experienced group or the newbie group, would your top two or three picks for scum change?

[fferyllt]

I am so tired that your posts aren't even making sense to me Eye. I'll reread in the morning. I think I'm just sick of this game.

[fferyllt]

So, I have did a quick catch up, so its going to be a simple reads..

Although this is a newbie game, I can tell that most of the players in this game seem to have had their own experiences elsewhere playing mafia games.

So, apart from the people I know already. Welcome to mafiascum.net rest of you! If you’re a mafia game lover, then you have come to your paradise. This site is a final stop for all the players who love playing mafia games, enjoying staying here.!

My advice for all of you - Slow down first, understand the site meta and people, follow the rules, don’t get offended and play for winning

And about my reads… I have done a fair catch up, I will tone up with you all soon as the game go … (note that I don’t enjoy writing really long posts, so my reads going to be simple .)

Fferullt

– She seems like an aggressive player, almost suspecting everyone in the game which is a good town-tell, Leaning town.

MAC

– mac seems different, she is playing more logically on this game than in the games I have been with her, Leaning town.

What makes you think "more logically" is townish wrt to Mac? What was his alignment in the earlier games you played?

Revenus

– I really didn’t like the way he went on with Carey, Being an SE and knowing this site meta and how things usually works here, he should been knowing already that lurking is common here.. So Just only reasoning lurking for accusing Carey as scum is not good, Leaning scum.

I've been wondering about this. Every game I've played so far has suffered from lurkers. In the finished ones, the most chronic inactive players were town.

Eye Urn

– I don’t like your avatar, I hate giant evil octopus. And, to talk about your game play, I see that you’re pushing GM’s much with no reasons, I am not sure if you were doing that because you think that you may not need direction from an IC or if it is your play style from the other sites that made subjectively concluded that GM is scummy becuz she is being overly cautious ?, either ways you need to remember that she was given an additional task in the game, she usually be more cautions than any player and she is not scummy that way. You’re leaning scum to for now.

Interesting switch from third person to second person. "He" vs "you".

GoodMorning

– Hey, Thanks for the heads up, Yeah I don’t think you’re again too… I am bit bored of suspecting you in almost every game we play. So who do you think is scum here? And btw, you’re doing a great job as IC. Keep it up girl

Carey

– Null so far, you need to pull a better play Carey, and stop saying like you’re catching up. Read through for real and post your reads.

Fropome

– Fro has been one of the active posters, it’s good thing for a newbie with that I can tell you that he is may be new to this site but not new to mafia game. He appears to be buddying up with Eye and Revenus, I don’t have positive read on either of them. So Fro is neutral to me for now.

Deras

– His reads seems genuine, Leaning town.

And to look at this game in a strategic way..
There will be 2 scums in a 9 player game.

And I am positive that there is one scum between SE’s & IC
I feel GM is town, Carey is null. Revenus would be my choice for this day’s lynch, if everyone wants to move this directly.
And there would one more scum in the rest of you.

The switch from 3rd to 2nd person seems to have to do with knowing the player except for Eye. I can't decide if the whole role assignment thing is a red herring or if there's something scummy in grouping the players this way.

[fferyllt]

Hmm. Really screwed that up. somehow.

Let me just pull out my comments/questions

@ArcAngel

Re Mac - What makes you think "more logically" is townish wrt to Mac? What was his alignment in the earlier games you played?

Re Revenus - this parallels what I've been pondering about Revenus while the thread has gone quiet.

There's quite a bit of non-relevant stuff in this, which could be normal for your early game posts. Something to review in other game threads.

[fferyllt]

Stalling is useful as long as it doesn't last too long, gives you a chance to catch your breath and reread/ISO if you have time.

Is Ffery is a new player? but her profile is created long time ago...

"A long time ago."

I drew scum in my first newbie game at the beginning of January, came down with the flu and my father in law passed away in February. I stuck with that one game until it completed, and then started playing multiple games. I have 2 completed games here now, and 3 in progress. I'm alive in two of them, including this one.

I have a lot of other-site forum mafia experience, though.

Oh okay, 3 games. I would say, you still farily new.
But, let me tell you something about this site. the games are here not the same as on other sites, you should be knowing that already!!
I really liked the way how you're looking at every possible way to suspect from almost all the posts, which makes you pro-town but the players on this site posts like hell, and some of their don't even look town to you. So, it is okay to get reads the way usually do but it is also important how you should change especially when you get to different type of games, Games where you have double mafia teams, cult leaders, wear wolf groups etc. People on this site follows different strategies to narrow downlist for scum hunting that includes "Mass claims" as well.

So, when i look at a newbie game, I don't think any MOD would think a bunch newbies can handle the entire mafia team on their own, Although the player role selection is random, it seems obvious to me that one of the SE's or IC's may be a possible scum (I would say high possibility), and all of them won't be scum too, if they do, it will be an one sided game.

I don't always see things in this way, like i said, different games different strategies...

All this advice about other types of games at MS seems kind of irrelevant. Filler?

[fferyllt]

I think I helped spark the filler stuff when the question of my MS experience came up. Not sure how growly to be about getting a bunch of advice irrelevant to this game in the reply.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

You seem to have dropped trying to continue your case on me. I say Fropome is inexperienced. That is borne out in his own description of his previous games. You counter that he's capable. He's still a n00b and he's still one of two n00b players that GM went after. I was after experienced players at the time you claimed I was doing the same thing GM was doing and voting her for it.

Your case doesn't hold water. And your vote looks pretty iffy, even though it's me saying it.

[fferyllt]

Town > Mac > Fropome > Deras > Revenus = Carey = ArcAngel > ffer > GM > Scum

ArcAngel looks like terrible town. Deras looks like he's at least trying. Revenus I don't like the playstyle of, but it feels like it's coming from a more townish direction. If Mac and Fropome are scum they are doing an extraordinary job in coming off as genuinely town to me.

GM/ffer cooled down way too easily for me. Way, way too easily. I don't like ffer's unvote based on meta, mainly because I have a strong disdain for any meta beyond the kind that Carey shows. The people in this game are self-aware enough to use the knowledge of their meta to their own advantage, and I feel both of these players have been trying to push their metas at us too much. As it stands now after my thorough re-reading, I'm seeing them very strongly as the scum pair. In case they aren't both scum, I'm definitely leaning more towards GM being scum. A lot of her posts suggest that she feels she knows more than we do. Maybe some of that's due to experience, but it feels like it's more than that. As for specifics, I'll point to the sigbet which is conveniently void if she's scum. I asked for specific terms for an entirely different reason, and managed to wheedle out that her sigbet is effectively a null-proposition when she knows it's wrong. I had assumed she lost if she were scum since she wasn't in the specified set. Just her whole attitude about this topic screamed "I know more than you" as I re-read.

I still don't like Carey's lack of actually playing, but given that his wagon has no traction and I have a stronger scum read now...

VOTE: goodmorning

I'll be sure to ask your permission before I change my mind hereafter.

[fferyllt]

I cannot believe I just semi-seriously typed "hella"

brb dying

So who do you feel is being opportunistic about him?

[fferyllt]

So who do you feel is being opportunistic about him?

Uh, who has him as a scumread? I mean the lists are basically the same

I'll go back and look at actual reasoning and stuff later if you like, but right now I'm in my old glasses and they're making me feel faintly queasy round the edges.

What I'm trying to get at is that more than 2 people have him in their scum pile, or at least null-scum. Some of those people have to be town by process of elimination. But, if you're right about him being town, then there may be a scum player voicing enough suspicion of him that they could credibly join the wagon if enough town get behind it.

That seems like a place to look for scum.

[fferyllt]

I ask ff because she was browsing the forum when I posted. And Eye Urn is fairly active. AA9 just replaced in, but AA9 and Deras are both welcome to place a vote too.

My reads are in flux. I've got some questions waiting in the thread. ISOs tomorrow. Then I should be ready to put another vote down.

[fferyllt]

Jesus almost 10 hours without a single post.

[fferyllt]

still in flux. Magic 8 ball says that time zones will unmesh in such a way that ISOing this thread will have my full attention in about 4-5 hours.

[fferyllt]

It's not my time zone that is the problem. I'm just trying to make the most of a time when players in another game are around. Might be less than 4 hours. They're dropping like flies.

I'm in your time zone.

[fferyllt]

Eye Urn, ff, please place your vote on your best scum reads.

Is Deras your strongest scum read? Have you explained why?

because this is kinda weak

Here I am, every night at 10:30pm PDT, exhausted from my day, trying to catch up.

I am not a troll, just a player trying to learn the game.

I am also dysgraphic, so writing content is difficult for me. Eye Urn, please cut me some slack.

Who is the scummiest of the scumreads right now? Not ff, not good morning, not even Eye Urn.

Ravenous maybe for calling me a turd. lol.

I think maybe Deras but I'm not sure yet.

316 was a good post. I wish I could do that.

so,

Unvote
Vote Deras

[fferyllt]

I am still liking Deras for town. If he's scum he's totally zoomed me (Aretha Franklin reference ftw)

Cary is coming off quite earnest and stuff since his earlier stfu I'm on spring break get a life posts or whatever they were

Revenus scares me. He's posting stuff I agree with for the most part but not enough and not often enough.

My townish read on Eye has gone a little stale.

My townish read on Fropome is stale and also flecked with paranoia. (HOWEVER - he posted while I was working on this so I'll back off on this a tad)

Mac is bugging me. I'm cautious because I have a tendency to either trust or strongly distrust people who go after me. More likely to trust someone who does it first or does it originally. Second and sloppy seconds not so much. I'm awaiting his response to an earlier post I made. Right now, I'm cautiously leaning scum.

ArcAngel - she came into a slot that I was starting to get a scum vibe from. I've read a couple of her scum games to see if the relatively large amounts of stuff that is not applicable to this game or its current landscape is a feature of her scum games. I'd say that the quantity is not typical. But, a quick ISO of a couple town games do appear to be more short, sharp and to the point. The whole argument about the likelihood of one SE/IC player being scum and the other being in a n00b slot feels like distraction and maybe misdirection. Right now, I'm leaning scum.

goodmorning - backing off, I'm finding that I'm reading most of her recent posts as town, and more telling, I'm replying to her as though she's town. That often happens before I actually wake up to the fact that I've decided someone is town. So yeah, my gut has decided she's town.

I'm taking anything I've written here that is meta based with a huge grain of salt. My game does have a strong meta-analysis component. MS is like a meta goldmine and I could easily spend a ton of time reading prior games looking for patterns I can match to this one. But, one thing I've learned in my short time playing here, is that for me to do reliable meta-analysis it has to be meta that I've experienced. A will of ISO posts is not a good substitute for the types of comparisons I draw about games I've actually experienced.

[fferyllt]

I know Revenus is on V/LA. My observation is based on how I was feeling about him at the time he made the v/la post.

[fferyllt]

ha! I just realized that it's the active lurker who kickstarted this thread today.

[fferyllt]

GM how are you feeling about ArcAngel's posts?

[fferyllt]

GM how are you feeling about ArcAngel's posts?

I'm not sure. Honestly she's incredibly hard to read unless you've played her before (I've done so two, three times?) but her meta is usually blatantly obvious. Depending on what she says next, she (the slot) may end up (back) in my scumpool.
For her posts so far, none of them have really been that indicative to me either way, which in itself is vaguely scummy for her. (That probably doesn't make sense in words but is very clear in my head).

That kinda makes sense based on my readings from some of her games.

[fferyllt]

Guys, there's no way to move the game forward if nobody puts posts up.

[fferyllt]

Deras is looking towniest to me. So townie it's actually starting to freak me out a little bit, remembering how in my previous newbie game (I was scum) players seriously underestimated me and figured I had to be naive, earnest low-experience town or something.

Scummiest is a dead heat at the moment between Mac and ArcAngel. Both of them need to post more.

Just want to highlight again that ArcAngel in her post with her reads referred to all the new players in the third person, and all the SE/IC players as "you". With one exception: Eye.

[fferyllt]

I agree. Who is the towniest player right now? And the scummiest?

What are your answers to these questions?

[fferyllt]

This looks interesting considering how GM and ff seem to be wearing matching outfits now, of course, the thread in the last couple of days has been mostly them, but it was that way before except before they were trying to rip each other's eyes out. Not sure if staged or honest yet, but I'd like to throw it out there again for consideration.

I can't point to a finished game at MS where I have done the same thing, so all I can tell you is that one of the ways I get reads is by provoking reactions - both from the person I'm going after and from other players. If you look back it was clearly me who started things with GM, not the other way around. The downside of doing this is that sometimes the player I sledge winds up putting me in their scum pile while I am deciding they are maybe town.

[fferyllt]

I have never replaced into a game at MS. In my first newbie game I was scum.

[fferyllt]

The last few pages have given me pause to wonder about certain things. I'll post some thoughts on it as soon as it's gelled.

Archangel, I don't recall being buddies with revenus. I don't know him. I feel a sense that I may be being buddied up to here and there, however.

Have your thoughts gelled yet?

[fferyllt]

I am hoping that it is a weekend thing. Would like to see answers to some of my questions by sometime tomorrow. If not I'll vote based on the information I currently have.

[fferyllt]

Deras is looking towniest to me. So townie it's actually starting to freak me out a little bit, remembering how in my previous newbie game (I was scum) players seriously underestimated me and figured I had to be naive, earnest low-experience town or something.

Scummiest is a dead heat at the moment between Mac and ArcAngel. Both of them need to post more.

Just want to highlight again that ArcAngel in her post with her reads referred to all the new players in the third person, and all the SE/IC players as "you". With one exception: Eye.

This is actually also a really bad post.

It's like you're setting yourself up to vote Deras later. If EVERYONE thought Deras was towny, that'd be one thing, but if you alone think that he's towny, then you shouldn't be thinking this way.

Still have a townread on you, but it's back to null/town. Really bad post.

My paranoia is legendary.

[fferyllt]

Town > Mac > Fropome > Deras > Revenus = Carey = ArcAngel > ffer > GM > Scum

ArcAngel looks like terrible town. Deras looks like he's at least trying. Revenus I don't like the playstyle of, but it feels like it's coming from a more townish direction. If Mac and Fropome are scum they are doing an extraordinary job in coming off as genuinely town to me.

GM/ffer cooled down way too easily for me. Way, way too easily. I don't like ffer's unvote based on meta, mainly because I have a strong disdain for any meta beyond the kind that Carey shows. The people in this game are self-aware enough to use the knowledge of their meta to their own advantage, and I feel both of these players have been trying to push their metas at us too much. As it stands now after my thorough re-reading, I'm seeing them very strongly as the scum pair. In case they aren't both scum, I'm definitely leaning more towards GM being scum. A lot of her posts suggest that she feels she knows more than we do. Maybe some of that's due to experience, but it feels like it's more than that. As for specifics, I'll point to the sigbet which is conveniently void if she's scum. I asked for specific terms for an entirely different reason, and managed to wheedle out that her sigbet is effectively a null-proposition when she knows it's wrong. I had assumed she lost if she were scum since she wasn't in the specified set. Just her whole attitude about this topic screamed "I know more than you" as I re-read.

I still don't like Carey's lack of actually playing, but given that his wagon has no traction and I have a stronger scum read now...

VOTE: goodmorning

Firstly, I am "SHE" not "HE"
And explain me why i am terrible town? What have i done that you think is town and what is exactly is the terrible.

Btw, I do like your theory of GM/ffer possible bussing, I am not sure abut FFER but i know GM is capable of bussing. so i ll keep my options open for that.

I am an epic busser.

Still not liking Mac's lack of response on my posts to him upthread. ArcAngel, however has made a substantive post without addressing my posts to her.

VOTE: ArcAngel

[fferyllt]

@Mac, here:

Mac, what is your read on Carey?

@Mac, a quick review of your posts since I asked this question indicates you didn't answer this.

Sorry, totally thought I did. Null-leaning-scum. Needs to post more. Needs more content. Posts like #334 are fucking useless to us all.

In #88 that wasn't your case. We've debunked that and decided the two posts were similar.

VOTE: VOTE: fferyllt

"We've".

Interesting pronoun choice. Who is "We"?

In a quick read back through this, I am seeing your case as "fferyllt accussed GM of going after n00bs but made a post that could also be interpreted as going after n00bs", though both my votes so far have been on experienced players.

If this is true, (and I of course disagree), then you are accusing me of hypocrisy. And your reasoning from there looks like "hypocrisy is scummy".

I'd ask you if you really think a scum player would jump on something a town player did and call it scummy if the scum player was doing the same thing. But, apparently you do think exactly that. Or you are pretending to.

"We've" is just me referring to me debunking it for the town as I thought I had done but yeah, I have to re-read because some people have said I'm misrepping you.

To clarify the hypocrisy, the way I see it goes like this:

Deras - some objectively scummy posts (the OMGUS in particular) but comes off pretty n00b despite playing a few games several years ago. In reading parts of a couple of those games, I got the same sense of earnest effort that I've seen here. Good recovery in his more recent posts, which is also not alignment indicative. Town or scum, he should be doing that.

Looking scummy

goodmorning -

easy targets

and staying away from Carey whose posts have been terrible, and Deras whose bandwagon looked like it had legs there for a bit. Encouragement of the Deras wagon without joining it comes off as subtle manipulation.

Carey - no content. excuses. OMGUS vote on Eye. He'd be hard pressed to look worse. It's like he's trying to look so bad that players will think "he can't possibly be scum. No scum player would do that - it's too obviously scummy".

I clarified "easy target" as Carey and Deras (which could be the exact post of misrep here) and then you name Carey as scummy and Deras as null (but I believe you said null-leaning scum at one point) - this is where I find it a bit hypocritical if you were referring to Carey and Deras as easy targets. Regardless of whether or not you have your vote on experienced players, .it's contradictory. Scum tend to trip over themselves when trying to form a case against a town player (assuming you are scum, GM is town and I'm not misrepping you) - this is what I'm getting at.

Of course. All this hinges on you clarifying who you meant as easy targets.

I'm not sure how you came to Fropome because he's pretty capable from what I've seen.

You seem to have dropped trying to continue your case on me. I say Fropome is inexperienced. That is borne out in his own description of his previous games. You counter that he's capable. He's still a n00b and he's still one of two n00b players that GM went after. I was after experienced players at the time you claimed I was doing the same thing GM was doing and voting her for it.

Your case doesn't hold water. And your vote looks pretty iffy, even though it's me saying it.

[fferyllt]

From what I've seen before, this is probably a town on town battle. I'm sure scum is laughing at us.

If you think it is town-on-town then who do you think is scum? And who is your towniest read?

[fferyllt]

That's a pretty slanted nutshell, Deras. GM is sorted. For now. And what led to my getting a bit less of a scum read was comparing her (IMO) terribad WoT case on me to cases she made in a few recent games. Her cases when she was scum looked tighter and more well thought out.

[fferyllt]

any argument invoking bffs will get a reaction from me. mafia is serious business.

[fferyllt]

I'll wait for GM to respond then. self-meta is thin gruel, but there are reasons why I have developed my style of scumhunting. I'm still in the process of evaluating if it needs modification for MS, and if so what sorts of modification. For now, I'm sticking with it.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE: ArcAngel

To get her off L-1. My level of suspicion is unchanged, but I don't want her hammered prematurely.

[fferyllt]

Also jesus christ Carey.

[fferyllt]

Also jesus christ Carey.

In what way do you mean that Jesus Christ?

I like to vote, so I voted. Just to put some pressure. I don't expect a hammer anytime soon.

I'm speechless.

[fferyllt]

I was not going to leave her at L-1 overnight on Carey's sudden change of heart.

I haven't played many majority-vote games. The ones I have played, players were very careful about putting people at L-1 without some consensus about it. One of the few times it did happen without consensus, somebody kind of impulsive hammered about 10 minutes later.

I"ve not seen someone get to L-1 here at MS that way without either consensus or a temporary unvote. I'll have to think about whether there was concern about someone trolling. Pretty sure that was not the case except maybe once.

[fferyllt]

You know what bothers me? GM's rather mild reaction to Carey's vote.

It's like he's a huge blind spot in the game - a lot of useless, irrelevant posts, a lot of demands from others for input while giving little himself. And we're mostly complacent about it because of his meta.

[fferyllt]

Nice vote carey

you've made me change my mind

Unvote

Vote:Careyhammer

I thought your vote was already on Carey?

[fferyllt]

players were very careful about putting people at L-1 without some consensus about it.

That sounds pretty boring IMO.

I got a better night's sleep with a player in this game not at L-1. I'm enough of an insomniac as it is.

I"ve not seen someone get to L-1 here at MS that way without either consensus or a temporary unvote.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen someone get to L-1 here that way.[/quote]
I have. Including in the previous newbie game I played.

You know what bothers me? GM's rather mild reaction to Carey's vote.

What were you expecting I'd do?

I don't find L-1 to be a big deal

.

We differ in that.

[fferyllt]

Typically, I just kind of sheep someone who I trust and jump on some bandwagon at L-3.

I already told you guys this is my playstyle. Scum or town. It's what I do.

You're saying here that you have intentionally dumbed down or failed to develop your town game so that your scum game is indistinguishable from it.

Playing terribly as town so you can skate as scum is no way to play mafia.

[fferyllt]

It's helpful that the two people at L-2 have their votes on each other. << example of me using irony

ArcAngel, is Carey really your best guess at scum?

Carey, why are you sheeping me? Why did you pick a player who has no game experience with anyone else playing besides someone who subbed out?

[fferyllt]

And to look at this game in a strategic way..
There will be 2 scums in a 9 player game.

And I am positive that there is one scum between SE’s & IC
I feel GM is town, Carey is null. Revenus would be my choice for this day’s lynch, if everyone wants to move this directly.
And there would one more scum in the rest of you.

I changed my mind about Angel.
I used to trust her, but this is like the only post with content from her other than that nonsense about only one scum could be in SE/IC.

I trust ff much more now, so I am going to sheep onto that Angel wagon.

Here comes L-1!

VOTE: Angel

Let's hear a claim, please, before we pull the trigger on a lynch.

Typically, I just kind of sheep someone who I trust and jump on some bandwagon at L-3.

I already told you guys this is my playstyle. Scum or town. It's what I do.

[fferyllt]

ArcAngel what are your current reads?

[fferyllt]

Talk some more about your leaning scum reads, please.

[fferyllt]

Not really feeling a town vibe for a withdrawn vote solely because of L-1. It was pretty clearly stated that it was L-1, and I don't think anyone that wasn't already voting was going to rashly hammer (now if Carey hadn't been voting, that would be another story; I'm pretty sure his meta includes throwing out random hammers) unless they were scum. By backing down off L-1, we're a bit less likely to really get a claim, especially since the votee is not paying much attention to this game. It feels more of a thing someone does to pretend to help town prevent accidental lynchings, and again, I don't see any evidence that such a thing would have happened.

I did your meta research for you.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4811681

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4811694

ArcAngel put some substantive posts down today. She's promised more tomorrow. And her posts are helping me refine my read a little. I'll say more after she posts her thoughts on her scum reads that I asked for. If she doesn't post them within 24 hours, I'll revote.

[fferyllt]

^ this is a very negative tone from townie attitude.
Why do you care so much my scum reads? What is that you want to fish in my reads?

I want to know why you voted Carey and then said afterwards in your list that Eye and Deras are more scummy than him. Null/scum vs leaning scum.

[fferyllt]

aaaand she's gone.

[fferyllt]

yeah, agree.

[fferyllt]

ArcAngel9 - TOWN
fferyllt - Leaning Town
Mac Birdland - Leaning Town
goodmorning (IC - Null
Z7-852 Fropome - Null
Eye Urn - Unsure
CareyHammer (SE) - Scum/NUll
Deras - Leaning Scum
Revenus (SE) - Leaning Scum

Damn I misclicked when trying to edit post above. Ignore it because the reads where copy pasted from above and they are not my own.

My real thoughts are as following.

fferyllt - Leaning Town
At early game (and after it) had kept the game going without being too aggressive toward anyone. Getting information is good and we have had some.

Eye urn - Leaning Town
Have also been digging information witch is nice. Not really much to say against or for. For now I have a gut feeling about him leaning town.

Goodmorning - Leaning town
Seems to play in the same team as fferyllt. Might be piggybagging but I would say there are at least two townies.

Deras - Leaning town
Mac - Leaning town
Two new players that haven't given much but still they seem both townies.

Revenus - Null
Sometimes giving good insight but sometimes seems to be little off. But still keeping the wheels rolling and not being aggressive about it. He is not pushing the lynch nor denying it's usefulness. Little hard to tell but lets him be null for now.

CareyHammer - Leaning Scum
Too much lurking and too little action. Maybe not a scum move but at least a reason to put pressure against him. Also have been pressuring players that I think are leaning toward town. CareyHammer have been not really gave much explanations for his votes. Thread this long should at least give some ideas who to vote.

ArcAngel9 - Leaning scum
Lurking again. Not saying that all lurkers are scum but players that don't play don't give any information for townfolk.

This is just what my gut feeling is after skimming the thread. I haven't read the whole thing and really don't have strong reads on anyone. I would vote CareyHammer or ArcAngel9 but don't want to drop the to L-1 on basis of just on fast catch up.

Not as similar as all that.

[fferyllt]

I've moved Mac up a bit. Other than that, my earlier reads haven't changed much.

[fferyllt]

You never did go into your reasons for your scum reads on Revenus and Deras.

[fferyllt]

Right.

I am still liking Deras for town. If he's scum he's totally zoomed me (Aretha Franklin reference ftw)

Cary is coming off quite earnest and stuff since his earlier stfu I'm on spring break get a life posts or whatever they were

Revenus scares me. He's posting stuff I agree with for the most part but not enough and not often enough.

My townish read on Eye has gone a little stale.

My townish read on Fropome is stale and also flecked with paranoia. (HOWEVER - he posted while I was working on this so I'll back off on this a tad)

Mac is bugging me. I'm cautious because I have a tendency to either trust or strongly distrust people who go after me. More likely to trust someone who does it first or does it originally. Second and sloppy seconds not so much. I'm awaiting his response to an earlier post I made. Right now, I'm cautiously leaning scum.

ArcAngel - she came into a slot that I was starting to get a scum vibe from. I've read a couple of her scum games to see if the relatively large amounts of stuff that is not applicable to this game or its current landscape is a feature of her scum games. I'd say that the quantity is not typical. But, a quick ISO of a couple town games do appear to be more short, sharp and to the point. The whole argument about the likelihood of one SE/IC player being scum and the other being in a n00b slot feels like distraction and maybe misdirection. Right now, I'm leaning scum.

goodmorning - backing off, I'm finding that I'm reading most of her recent posts as town, and more telling, I'm replying to her as though she's town. That often happens before I actually wake up to the fact that I've decided someone is town. So yeah, my gut has decided she's town.

I'm taking anything I've written here that is meta based with a huge grain of salt. My game does have a strong meta-analysis component. MS is like a meta goldmine and I could easily spend a ton of time reading prior games looking for patterns I can match to this one. But, one thing I've learned in my short time playing here, is that for me to do reliable meta-analysis it has to be meta that I've experienced. A will of ISO posts is not a good substitute for the types of comparisons I draw about games I've actually experienced.

[fferyllt]

I certainly do push when town. I'm not passive about letting reads come to me. I shake trees and see what falls out.

What I'm seeing fall out is that you, ArcAngel go on a reactive attack anytime someone posts to or about you. That looks scummy.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: ArcAngel

[fferyllt]

I certainly do push when town. I'm not passive about letting reads come to me. I shake trees and see what falls out.

What I'm seeing fall out is that you, ArcAngel go on a reactive attack anytime someone posts to or about you. That looks scummy.

And you say what you doing is Town? Reactive is not scummy, what do you do when Scum pushes to you an edge? would you react or stay quite? I guess you know the answer....

Look, I was kept under L-1 yesterday which i pretty much see it as scum motivated wagon. the only thing that stopping me to see you as scum is how you changed your mind and took me back to L-2, otherwise I am not liking the way you continously pushing me to participate more. I will particapate and put out my opinions when i have and I feel to put out. I don't have to necessarly write out my reads to meet your expecations.

And the other thing I am not liking is how the scum is now driving focus slowly to my side so they could take an adbvantage on my lynch.
did you properly read the

Z7-852

reads, How conviently he jumped into saying that I am leaning scum, And I am not suprised that Revenus agreeing with it. I am not saying everyone is Scum but there is scum in between them who is just agreeing with things..

You are reacting at everyone who suspects you. We can't all be scum.

I would be very surprised if we're looking at an ArcAngel/Carey slot. I'm agnostic about most of the rest of the available combinations atm. I have never seen a town player completely unwilling to give a basis for their reads. I've seen people hold things back that they thought could be used tactically or strategically later, but not a complete stonewall.

There is no town reason I can discern to do what you are doing wrt your reads.


p-edit or whatever Mac I'm pretty sure it's L-2. Carey unvoted. I don't recall anyone else voting.

[fferyllt]

So, I have did a quick catch up, so its going to be a simple reads..

Although this is a newbie game, I can tell that most of the players in this game seem to have had their own experiences elsewhere playing mafia games.

So, apart from the people I know already. Welcome to mafiascum.net rest of you! If you’re a mafia game lover, then you have come to your paradise. This site is a final stop for all the players who love playing mafia games, enjoying staying here.!

My advice for all of you - Slow down first, understand the site meta and people, follow the rules, don’t get offended and play for winning

And about my reads… I have done a fair catch up, I will tone up with you all soon as the game go … (note that I don’t enjoy writing really long posts, so my reads going to be simple .)

Fferullt

– She seems like an aggressive player, almost suspecting everyone in the game which is a good town-tell, Leaning town.

MAC

– mac seems different, she is playing more logically on this game than in the games I have been with her, Leaning town.

Revenus

– I really didn’t like the way he went on with Carey, Being an SE and knowing this site meta and how things usually works here, he should been knowing already that lurking is common here.. So Just only reasoning lurking for accusing Carey as scum is not good, Leaning scum.

Eye Urn

– I don’t like your avatar, I hate giant evil octopus. And, to talk about your game play, I see that you’re pushing GM’s much with no reasons, I am not sure if you were doing that because you think that you may not need direction from an IC or if it is your play style from the other sites that made subjectively concluded that GM is scummy becuz she is being overly cautious ?, either ways you need to remember that she was given an additional task in the game, she usually be more cautions than any player and she is not scummy that way. You’re leaning scum to for now.

GoodMorning

– Hey, Thanks for the heads up, Yeah I don’t think you’re again too… I am bit bored of suspecting you in almost every game we play. So who do you think is scum here? And btw, you’re doing a great job as IC. Keep it up girl

Carey

– Null so far, you need to pull a better play Carey, and stop saying like you’re catching up. Read through for real and post your reads.

Fropome

– Fro has been one of the active posters, it’s good thing for a newbie with that I can tell you that he is may be new to this site but not new to mafia game. He appears to be buddying up with Eye and Revenus, I don’t have positive read on either of them. So Fro is neutral to me for now.

Deras

– His reads seems genuine, Leaning town.

And to look at this game in a strategic way..
There will be 2 scums in a 9 player game.

And I am positive that there is one scum between SE’s & IC
I feel GM is town, Carey is null. Revenus would be my choice for this day’s lynch, if everyone wants to move this directly.
And there would one more scum in the rest of you.

Well, see, you've downgraded Deras from leaning town to leaning scum. No explanation why. You had no read of GM, but now you think she's not scumhunting. (I actually agree with that assessment btw and it would be a town point in your favor if it hadn't looked just as reactive as every other thing you've posted in the last 2 or 3 days). Mac's fallen, too, IIRC apparently on the basis of voting you.

[fferyllt]

That unvote has REALLY disturbed me. Like, I'm pretty sure we don't have any trolls or idiots in this game who will hammer without a claim from Angel. As long as people are aware that an "intent to hammer" is ALWAYS necessary, having Angel at L-1 should be fine and hopefully force some content from her.

Why did you unvote fferyll when no one is gonna hammer prematurely? Especially considering your "suspicions haven't changed."

AA9, get involved or be lynched. I want ff's answer before I consider putting AA9 at L-1

@Deras

- do you mind getting an avatar?

Actually, screw AA9. Ff, still answer please.

VOTE: CareyHammer

That post was literally the pot calling the kettle black and every other color of the rainbow, Carey. Sort it out.

I conflated these two posts and thought that you'd voted ArcAngel. I guess it was your willingness to vote that had her hissing a bit in your direction.

Good point about Eye originally arguing that even a random role assignment would have greater than even odds of at least one scum in the SEs/IC. Though his math didn't back up the case that ArcAngel was arguing.

[fferyllt]

^ this is a false accusation, I did gave basis of my reads, did you even read my opening post? It has the base read of each player in detail . What do you call that? Why are you lying about that?

Like I mentioned that my reactiong was clearly geniune as I was pushed to L-1, Carrey had a stupid reason to jump into my wagon and so is you...

Actually, I just read this and went to check really quickly: yes you did add reasons to your first readlist but that lists me as leaning town, then your next one says bleeding scum, you haven't explained what made you change. (didn't check the others to see if there were changes)

Your post #478 and 534
your reason to call me scum looks very oppurtunist to me, the way I account the possible scum in SE's and IC is a random guess and when i drop that discuss right after MOD confirmed that roles were assigned randomly through using Random.org site. I have been MOD before in a different site, the games I have modded, I always considered not to put the entire mafia with full of noobs as it will be unfair in the game.

But how you still hang on to that point as reason and targeting me to lynch over carrey was very oppurtunist, its like you know carrey would eitehrways a lynch target at anytime as he was playing an effort less game.

I'm trying not to fill up the thread with my posts again so I've stepped away from this thread for a bit at times today. 478 looked like a pressure vote, to get you back into the thread. I don't like to see pressure votes made obvious as such because that decreases their utility - if the player being pressured knows it's a pressure vote, then they react accordingly. But, it does include a case for voting you. On it's own, it's a weak case IMO.

534 gives no reason at all for preferring your lynch over Carey's.

[fferyllt]

ffery- Why you're not commenting about my post # 622
And i have asked your what you think about the way Z7-852 reasoning out me as scum...
And you seem to find my reasons now, so are your with drawing your statement that I haven't stated my reads at all....

And its is apparent that I had changes after reading through the two days i have missed and gave the new reads..

Re the Z7-852 slot I need more data.

I got no sense from your posts as to how your reads had evolved. You know, if you think you documented your thought-changes, you could have just said something like "see post x" when I asked for your reads on your scum pile and that would have been great. WHY DO YOU KEEP ASKING ME ABOUT MY READS THAT'S SCUMMY!?1! Not so much.

[fferyllt]

Z7-852 I do tend to play aggressively, and once something sets me off in a game I tend to stay that way for a good while. Part of it is play style. Part of it is game circumstances.

[fferyllt]

Wait...did you just fuss about long-ass posts because it's not your style of play, and then FoS me for not writing long-ass posts?

[fferyllt]

Not long post.. No content in your posts. Don't twist my words!!!!!!

Ok. That's pretty much a first.

I try (sometimes unsuccessfully) not to be succinct, but I do try to fully form my thoughts when I put them out there.

[fferyllt]

I thought we were going to wait for Carey's replacement?

Not liking this.

[fferyllt]

With a new and unknown player coming into the game, being at L-1 worries me.

[fferyllt]

I'm waiting to read VisceraEyes' thoughts on the game.

[fferyllt]

We've got just under 4 days, and I don't plan to lose sight of the deadline.

I don't know what to think about AA9's lack of engagement or giving up or whatever it is.

[fferyllt]

I really don't like how this game has stagnated, and I furthermore HATE that both leading wagons have been MIA right now...

This

Yeah, it's been 2 and a bit days on VE.

Can we get a prod or a replacement considering the deadline and his complete lack of posts?

And this.

[fferyllt]

Please refer to my post # 645 , 662 & 665. If i have to say it again. Here you.. I am TOWN!!! , Hope that is loud enough and don't blame that i didn't say it.

I'm really having trouble with this. Maybe it's just that it's so alien to how I approach being mislynched. This is a team game. Being lynched or NKed isn't losing. And a town player about to be mislynched has the opportunity to dig and evaluate and reconsider just like everyone else does, but with an added bonus really - their reads are about to be the reads of a confirmed town player if the mislynch happens.

This is an opportunity. It doesn't look townish to not take advantage of that opportunity.

[fferyllt]

You gave a couple links to goodmorning's scum games. But, you didn't explain what you thought matched GM's play in this game. What is GM's scum meta?

[fferyllt]

I don't see how that applies to the scum games you linked. What are we supposed to be looking for in those linked games?

[fferyllt]

I don't see how that applies to the scum games you linked. What are we supposed to be looking for in those linked games?

the way she playing her current game is pretty much how she played with me on Friends and Enemies game.
What is that so hard not to understand in the games i have linked. Dont you see thst she is scum in both the games??

Yes I see she was scum. I reviewed at least one of those games early on when she posted that amazing WoT case on me, and I found enough differences between this game and that one that I couldn't see her posting such a pile of tripe case if she's scum.

I'm not leaning town very strongly on her, but I didn't think the meta case for her being scum was very strong at all.

You have experiential meta - games you both played where she was scum. One more time into the meta-pile, then.

[fferyllt]

FE = Eye Urn in GM-speak

[fferyllt]

Who is everyone else?

[fferyllt]

My scum game is way weaker than my town game. And my town game is difficult to emulate as scum. I'd say 4. Factor in that I'm a harsh self-critic.

[fferyllt]

Who is everyone else?

My "everyone else" is everyone not me, VE, or AA9.

I'm doing so already, and people who might be tempted will be MORE tempted if you do so - right now I just look like a crazy person with a loner vote - but with your help I CAN BE A BANDWAGON LEADER!!!

I VOTED HIM FIRRRSTTTT
NYAH NYAH

So you're not a crazy person with a loner vote.

And AA9 is in your scumpile.

Fropome's town read had gotten quite stale prior to his few posts before replacing out. Z is null. I'll review. Though I don't like VisceraEye's strategy of holding his reads close - I think that's a strategy that compromises one's town game in favor of being more effective as scum - his posts are interesting.

I felt a little misrepresented by Z in 701. In no way is it ever "good" to be mislynched as town IMO. It's a lemons/lemonade situation. I work my butt off to leave well thought out reads when it looks like I could be mislynched.

[fferyllt]

Ugh, you know I get that a lot but still don't understand it? How is my style "compromising of my town game in favor of being more effective as scum"?

To be fair, I'm a relatively skilled scum player, but I attribute that mostly to my activity and very much NOT to me being unwilling to share all of my reads all of the time.

As town, there are some things I feel it's beneficial to be transparent about. My reads are one of those things. Maybe if my reads generally sucked I'd feel different about posting them for future game days. Not saying your reads suck. Saying my reads are usually one of the better things I bring to the table, though I'm still evaluating if that translates here at MS.

[fferyllt]

Tackling Fropome first. I'm not going to delve much into his earlier posts. Suffice it to say that I'd come away from them with a slight town-lean overall

324 - had a mental note about this one earlier, that depending on how things went from this point, Fropome and Deras might not be scum together. OTOH I think I've impressed on Fropome the folly of being too distant from scum mates in prior games elsewhere.

329 - somewhat self-referential of me, but I'm mostly focused on his comments about me. I thought his play in this game showed some unexpected evolution. The last time we played together it took some serious pro-town results from me before he had enough of a town read to work with me (he was vig and he went after my scum reads), and even then he had his moments of full-blown paranoia. He's put a lot of thought into his game since then. I expected changes. His aggressiveness in FoSing/voting GM was something I expected to eventually see in his game. Just not this soon.

446 - probably a timing/who's around thing, but during his return to the game he interacted pretty heavily with me compared to other players. As the one player in the game with prior experience'/knowledge of his play (He's played 2 games I've modded and we've played 3 games together besides this one), if he's scum, my getting a town read would be pretty important to his survival. OTOH interacting with someone you know could be easier no matter what your role.


451 looks townish, unvoting. OTOH the GM wagon didn't look like it was going anywhere at that point, so why not?

[fferyllt]

Z7-852, with some focus on his interactions with me (because I pushed him for reactions a few times), as well as more general stuff.

637 - comments that I push too aggressively and it looks opportunistic wrt AA9. (agreeing with AA9, who was pegged out on his scumometer or w/e.

639 - I push back, say I am aggressive player, and more so when I get my dander up.

644 - backs off completely. avoiding confrontation?

In reread, I'm noticing in several of these posts that the scumometer isn't changing based on his comments. Particularly noticeable with the
goodmorning vote, since he had 2 players down as more scummy than her.

Summaries make it easy to avoid direct interaction. It's all one-off and 3rd person. While everyone does summary-style posts occasionally, to stick with summaries exclusively completely shuts down the info that you gather (and scatter) via conversational mode.

[fferyllt]

Actually, I thought I had pushed back more than once. Need to iso my own posts and see if something didn't get a response.

[fferyllt]

ah...655 - he didn't reference me directly, but did unvote.

[fferyllt]

A little over 2 days now.

Come on guys, we need to talk.

[fferyllt]

I haven't filled in the blank yet, though I think it's pretty clear that doesn't add up to a strong town read.

[fferyllt]

So I guess it becomes a question of whether you feel more strongly about the present bandwagon or the bandwagon GM and I are pushing.

As I said, I'm willing to consolidate on AA just to get a lynch, so don't factor in no-lynching as a possibility.

This is not a good time for no-lynch. We'd be flushing much of the info we could derive from D1 bandwagon analysis. I'm having a hard time letting go of my townish impression of Fropome despite Z7's slippage. But, let's see what develops.

VOTE: Z7-852

[fferyllt]

This is my first game with him. GM's referenced his play in other games. So has Eye, but he made it pretty clear it was from reading old games. I think this is Eye's first MS game.