TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[AGar]

VOTE: Cephrir

Well I'm never fucking listening to my teammates again.

[AGar]

(i promise im not rolefishing guys)

Why is this the joke you decided to explain?

i rolled town this time and i'm so relieved

[AGar]

AGar (null--he did check in but didn't continue to post)

Mastina, I'm going to address this directly exactly once because you did this shit last game and you seem to have not learned:

I am not going to nolife this game.
I am not going to "hang around" after I post if I have something else to do or even just don't feel like staring at a mafia game spamming F5.
I am not going to ignore my job or my other responsibilities to post repeatedly in this game.
I am going to do my damndest to avoid spam posting because the very thought rips the will to play out of my soul.
I will frequently come in, comment, give my thoughts, and then dip out and do something else.

You keep throwing out there things like this like it's inherently something that is bad and it always has a tone of suspicion to it. Newsflash: it's just how I play. I am not going to change and I am not going to apologize. So either try and get a policy yeet rolling on me or fucking drop it.

Please don't post your read list every page
Please. Nobody cares.

I like IV so far.
Dann seems ok to me.
I'm gonna vibe with Ceph because he's got the same anger burning inside him that I do.

VLA until Sunday

I feel so shit for saying this, but:

I'm so sorry you rolled scum this game Titus.

[AGar]

AGar how do you like my posting yet I am exactly the kind of player you hate Loool

Because if I based my yeet pool around players who's posting style I can't stand, my yeet pool would be at least a dozen players. Old man good at separating playstyle from whether I think you're scum or not.

feels that agar reacted disproportionately to mastina calling him null,

however he's not sure if it's alignment indicitive

[snip]

scum: agar

Emphasis mine.

So, yaknow, do you have any of your own thoughts on this game or are you just gonna pass the buck and conduit for Auro again?

this feels so overly aggressive. dislike

... Like I'm not expecting to be townread for being mad but I would think people would just get the point by now that I'm angry constantly? We really fucked up not naming our team "Old Man Yells At Cloud"

VOTE: the worst

LLD can be town. I think her case is a little flawed on Hercule, but the thought process tracks given she wasn't in the last game. I think the first four-to-five pages are largely useless shit because everyone'd been sitting on pent up anxiousness for the better part of a week.

[AGar]

This pains me but I cannot shake off the scum read.

VOTE: InnocentVillager

Would like elaboration here.

[AGar]

This pains me but I cannot shake off the scum read.

VOTE: InnocentVillager

Would like elaboration here.

I wish I could explain it in a convincing way, mafia is as much about finding scum as it is convincing players that your read is correct. How can I explain adequately that he reads immensely self-conscious?

You just did it. I can get that.

Honestly I like IV's posting so far but I also feel fairly confident that if IV is scum, this is unsustainable for him? Like I can't think of many players who would be able to keep that up long term. I'm not afraid of him duping everyone and suddenly we get to endgame and he's sliding by. I think the kids these days call that "deepwolfing" or something.

---

Ceph's posting feels looser. I like this.

>why do people cry about teammates content being posted in team mafia, you signed up for the wrong fucking game, dipshits

I mean, I like teammate content but only if it's also mixed well with actual player content.

you feel hostile

I kinda like it.

Mastina's 530 just tells me if she flips town we need to turboyeet Hercule.

UNVOTE:

P-Edit: interesting developments with the worst.

[AGar]

what's so interesting about me?

You've basically shitposted with everyone else in the little bit you're here and now you wanna vote Dann. Unless I missed something it just seems a little outta left field and I'm curious. And I see you answered this in the next post. Seems fine.

[AGar]

I kind of want to call mastina town for so steadfastly scum reading me and I know she as town just sometimes treats slots like this, but like it's probably not out of her scum range either?

Meta is horseshit rabble rabble rabble but like... obstinately being wrong about a player is the easiest shit to replicate.

[AGar]

LLD can be town. I think her case is a little flawed on Hercule, but the thought process tracks given she wasn't in the last game.

The problem with that: in a game with a lot of raw talent skilled at both townplay and scumplay where every scum player (or close to every scum player) is at the top-level of scumplay (or close to), you're not going to catch scum by any "oh, lol, that's scum obviously and clearly and unambiguously". (Even tho I'm in the 90% certainty that LLD and Dann are scum, it is not for things that are obvious/clear/unambiguous; it is for subtle things backed by anecdotal experience.)

In a game with the highest-caliber of players being scum, you're going to catch scum when their viewpoints contain 'little flaws', so to speak, and LLD's case against hercule is exactly that: it is flawed, in a way that, yes, is scum-indicative. The thought process doesn't fully track especially given this is TEAM Mafia. LLD has teammates who could fill her in on what they know of last game, and then there's also the ban announcements for last game for extra context there, and that's beyond the fact that last iteration of the game is a talking point in this game, meaning that checking out last game has some actual value to it.

I've let exactly one person in my decade plus of playing mafia talk to me this way and you're not, never have been, and never will be anywhere close to the player that Glork was, so kindly don't tell me how to play the game. My fucking method works for me just fine. kthxbye.

---

Oh dude I forgot Agar was in this game

it's been ages

Fuckin somethin, innit?

Dann, Agar, what do you two like about xtoxm here?

There was a spot where they were aggressive last game

I mean it's early and they've already posted more than they had until they were run up last time. Also I don't remember them being aggressive? I might've shut parts of that game out of my brain though.

Do you guys think hell is repeating Day 1 of a large over and over again for eternity

Fucking feels like it rn.

[AGar]

I would agree that hard engaging on a 1V1 with you is a terrible idea for scum

I just don't think it's a good idea for town either

Working so I can't get to everything yet but I wanted to specifically key in on this while it was relevant: Do you want to address the point that Hercule is flailing about not for being misread but for being caught for the wrong reasons? Because that's become the most convincing point to me right now.

I need to read up and reply to other shit after I finish this OT, but consider me leaning towards voting Hercule rn.

[AGar]

Prod dodging here because my mental health is in shambles thanks to work shit. Will read up/participate tomorrow evening. Need sleep and quiet and not mafia.

[AGar]

Reading now.

[AGar]

Spoiler: Notes

- #686 is a weird flip by WF. There's like... no content from the_worst to parse in the 20 or so posts between his change. This feels very very contrived.
- I want to murder A50, for no reason other than his spam quotes are going to make this take fucking hours longer than it should.
- #736 looks real bad for Hercule. 741 to 743 is gross. In 741, you're waiting on her to explain her scumread before you decide and you kinda wanna vote A50. In 743 you vote LLD for being in "have not said or done something towny." Feels jarring when contrasted to #736.
- It's the Hercule power hour for now, huh? #751 "I don't feel like it's that weird to be sus of me" really? Because you got uppity and snippy about people suspecting you and/or voting you like... 15 posts ago.
- #766 IV, wtf is this shit?
- Oh no, DGB. That stretch in #768 was too much.
- Ok IV is still town (#772)
- I straight up disagree with OkaPoka's #805. WF has not been bold? He's posted like three times? And he's waffled on a read on the_worst.
- 812 is a weird naked vote. The_worst wasn't a wagon burgeoning. Hope Ceph elaborates?
- Dann/Hercule exchange in the 800s - I agree with Dann, I find hercule infinitely scummier.
- I don't like jjh. #847 is just very middling and meh.
- Hercule #873:

I have devoted most of my attention this game outside of LLD

Press X for doubt.
- jjh #882. Yeah we just play different games or you're selectively misremembering here.
- Hercule #892 is very very typical scum bluster. "I want to talk about things but tell me what they are so I can concoct my read!"

- Whew boy WF absolutely

STINKS

this game.

- I was wrong.
- Hopkirk #1142 and #1144 sets off alarms for me. #1142 looks like he's specifically baiting to bring in toxicity, #1144 doubles down and Hopkirk just doesn't realize that he isn't funny and tries to use this to generate a point of contention.
- Hopkirk also trying to make callbacks to last game and that doesn't really hold water with me.
- 1187 is a hell of a fucking stretch by Hopkirk. Yeet this with fervor.
- Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him. Makes you think.
- 1204, Hopkirk is really trying to kick up the toxicity dust. Wonder why.
- 1242 RE FUCKING TWEET.
- Same for 1424.
- 1480 is a whole damn mood.
- 1511: Oka, how do you not have a read on LLD?
- Oka was doing a reaction test type thing, k. Weird but k.

I am under no circumstances yeeting LLD today.

Preferred yeets {Hercule/Hopkirk}

Someone not named xtoxm please lay out a case on Dunnstral for me? Xtoxm's case has Auro all over it and a lot of meta so I'm not swayed.

[AGar]

I just think you're unfunny and try and pass off scummy shit as "humor" and I think you were trying to nag and prod at the RC thing to see if you could derail a thread into a shitshow of toxicity about a player that isn't in the game. LLD made it explicitly clear how she feels about RC, and that subject had been dead and dropped until you found reason to bring it back up when nothing productive can come from it. I can find two reasons as to why you would do that, and I make a rule of assuming players aren't the stupidest fucking antitown actor that I've ever met.

[AGar]

Fuck I forgot to paste this in the other one.

winterflakes is not bold anymore yes
im sorry agar but your notes have absolutely no links pls at least give us clickies if you won't quote it ):

The post #s are mostly for me to be able to reference back to quickly if someone asks for fleshing out on a read. I know no one is gonna really dig through post #s but I'm also not going to spend the extra time formatting 30ish post tags for like one person to click them.

[AGar]

Someone not named xtoxm please lay out a case on Dunnstral for me?

just don't read part 2, he nicely separated it out for people who do or don't care about meta

i don't see what's wrong with auro having helped

Nothing "wrong" with it, but my limited experience is that Auro relies on meta first and then works backwards, so I think that the other half is tainted and isn't really going to sell me.

[AGar]

given you responded seriously to my post last game where i was saying 'eating/sleeping/needing to use the bathroom etc' was scum indicative as though i was serious, i don't have a high opinion of your ability to recognize humor.

I... did not do this? Your only "joke" I didn't get was you saying everything you posted was for a reason, but once again - if no one is laughing at your jokes, maybe it's not the fucking audience that's bad at this.

the subject was like a 1-2 post exchange. why do i look at that and know 'ah, posting this is going to make the thread explode lol'.

Because you're competent enough to read what LLD has posted prior to that, read what everyone else has posted about LLD's playstyle, and also read the specific words that LLD used about that and the strong wording. I presume.

what about me and agar?

you're both backing the narrative of discrediting my image as a person, not just a slot.

like saying that 'hopkirk is either scum, or he's the kind of person who would intentionally try and piss people off to start shit' instead of 'hop is either scum or he made a joke in good faith that either went to far (i disagree it went far at all but that's a separate point that's not worth discussing)' is the four of you choosing to insult me as a person and really fucking pisses me off

I am explicitly calling you scum.
Have a vote.

VOTE: Hopkirk

[AGar]

I'm not gonna look up all the posts you quoted without tags (I can't believe I did that last game) but how is "Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him" your take on the last couple days? I dipped out when the pressure on me was explicitly High in order to just take a breather from the game and approach it back with a clear mind

Ceph, wagoning LLD has been like pulling teeth, her buddies are NOT bus'ing. We townies will have to do it without scum's help.

This probably the best argument for Scum!LLD I have seen so far. It's not a

perfect

argument (because sometimes Scum try to avoid the prevailing wagon to saw confusion when the eliminated flips Town. Some of us will want to eliminate ON the wagon and some off it, but the popular argument would always be "Scum

must

gave been on it", so 0-1 Scum on a Town flip on D1 increases the Scum win probability by like 50%). However, I can guarantee Scum are reluctant to bus LLD is she is on the red side.

How can it be the best argument when it isn't even true? Like there hasn't been resistance to an LLD wagon, because resistance would imply there's been action taken to push a wagon more than DGB just pleading with players without any basis of why. DGB finally put a case together I think I saw, but that's the first actual attempt to generate momentum outside of "Vote LLD with me plz," and that got LLD to like L-2.

Everything else you said is just straight up theorycraft and useless.

---

1708, if it were a proper description, just looks like good ol' fashioned reaction based scumhunting to me, and a mad scumbag that got caught. :shrug:

@DGB

, re: 1787 Yeah see that's not convincing, nor does that make me feel like there's been resistance to the LLD wagon. It makes me feel the opposite - that we got there way too easily if that's the genesis of things. 1810 is a better rallying cry if you want to argue that there's a push being made and there's resistance... the case itself just falls flat with me. *shrug*

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

This is whew boy fucking terrible reasoning. Like, props for saying it out loud that you really just think yeeting a strong player is a good play so you can affirm your reads but god damn.

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

Scum don't want a green LLD flip to compromise them? Hahaha I've been begging every player individually, everyone of them would have been shielded by claiming to do to make me happy.

This... was not the point LLD made?

[AGar]

Ah fuck, I never responded to the Hercule post:

I'm not gonna look up all the posts you quoted without tags (I can't believe I did that last game) but how is "Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him" your take on the last couple days? I dipped out when the pressure on me was explicitly High in order to just take a breather from the game and approach it back with a clear mind

I mean, it was a chunk of 30ish pages to be read and you were just MIA without word which felt like a direct contrast to how you've been present, and I freely admit that I'm really not looking at timestamps on those notes - they're pretty well stream of consciousness reading and typing out thoughts. I do like how that was the one point you honed in on, because that's like... the least consequential of anything I mentioned.

[AGar]

WF*

Can you expound on what you're seeing here? Not lining up with this one.

fmpov the reasons why you guys are voting lld pls correct me if im mistaken

-she is good at scum
-townreads on her are undeserved
-she's mean
-she hasn't died yet

the third choice is so far the most convincing point anyways good night i might not be here for the next 24 hours

tbh i think the 4th reason is the most convincing point for me

VOTE: LLD

I'm sorry hwat.

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

Scum don't want a green LLD flip to compromise them? Hahaha I've been begging every player individually, everyone of them would have been shielded by claiming to do to make me happy.

This... was not the point LLD made?

@DGB

Please address?

[AGar]

@AGar:


This is what she said: "Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV. "

Does that make sense to you?

It does. What doesn't make sense is how you seemingly distorted it in 1842, or I'm misreading what your post intended.

Endorsing what Titus is saying right now as a good general rule in mafia. Think about it.

Nah. It's a relic of a time past when scum didn't have daytalk as a regular thing and is largely a pointless showy thing. Doubly so for team mafia.

ducky rep'd out

You think it's AI?

[AGar]

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

... No?

maybe it's only 4
hercule (7): Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst, Dannflor, Dunnstral, Cephrir

LLD was a counterwagon to hercule, stop trying to reframe history scum.

[AGar]

This is definitely coming at me from a starting position of wants to call me scum. everyone who's commented has told me the stuff you've said about me trying to start stuff is bad/actively insulting. you're taking 'counterwagon' is a word and trying to use one word I used (and people should know how I type/talk by now) without considering the actual thoughts being conveyed there. Wittgenstein would hate you.

I clearly mean like dueling wagons for that one and am including it with the counterwagons because it's another wagon with similar people to show there's been a bunch of wagons like that. instead of engaging with the logic/meaning you're choosing to jump on a word/the phrasing as 'scum' which doesn't come from good faith town as it's inherently not in good faith/trying to work things out. That's coming from a mindset of trying to say 'look hop is scum and everything he says is proof of that' which only comes from either town who's 100% (doesn't feel supported by your history)or scum who's thinking this kind of stuff is easier to attack people on than by actually engaging with the ideas

Noooope fuck off.

Counterwagon isn't just some arbitrary term on this site - it has a meaning that the players grasp. The fact that you want to try and cop out by hiding behind "oh I meant something else" doesn't fucking hold water with me any better than a strainer. You were trying to distort the narrative and the moment you got caught, you came in with "oh no I meant something else."

You're not town.

Eat a yeet please and thank you.

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

i was unsure if him adding "scum" to the end of that was a joke or not

Hopkirk is scum.

It's really that simple.

I said what I said.

[AGar]

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

I don't feel it's all that opaque but I'll properly case it out.

[AGar]

I still think all of Goofball, Mastina and Dannflor are Town. I don't have much else right now tbh. I'll start Iso'ing the people being wagoned.

This is underwhelming.

[AGar]

I wish I could throw this game and start day one again

I swear to fucking Christ...

[AGar]

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

I don't feel it's all that opaque but I'll properly case it out.

It's more that I don't agree with what you've been quoting so far

For what it's worth I have hopkirk at around null.

I'm not sure how you're disagreeing with the recent stuff, it seems fairly cut and dry.

---

My strong suspicion of Hopkirk is based primarily on two prongs:

1) I think that throwing the "[teammate] was offended by the slander of RC and I'm gonna bring that back up a couple dozen pages later" bomb out there was a specific attempt to derail a strong player who basically BoP'd herself into a tunnel of vitriol and lost focus. Whether it took hold to me is irrelevant - the entire thing was unnecessary and again, I go out of my way to assume players aren't [redacted name] when it comes to "are they scum or are they incredibly incompetent as town?" scenarios. Also incredibly amusing when squared with this post. Makes you think.

2) Hopkirk has on more than one occasion posited something, and then when called on it, backtracked to say he didn't actually mean it

that way

and tried to chalk it up to he just used a word loosely. Throwing Hercule in as a counterwagon to LLD was maybe the easiest example to catch him on and also the one in which he probably thought he could get away easiest. There was a wagon on Hercule, and he legitimately tried to get away with saying he didn't mean counterwagon when he said counterwagon. Sorry, not buying that bullshit.

Lesser notes:

He tried to recycle the point about "appealing to the crowd" against me (by appealing to a crowd, lol), even though it was brought up in reference to folks trying to appeal to a crowd that they were town/how are people buying it, and any appeals I've made have been to convince people to

look at a scumbag

, which - last I checked - was half the battle as town. I dunno, find it pretty scummy that part of the defense would be "Hey he's trying to get other people to weigh in!" because it tells me he has no actual basis to disprove/dispute my read, so he's resorting to trying to undercut me instead.

He's tried to spin everything around that I'm coming at him with as "oh you're just personally attacking me, you're being mean!" when I'm explicitly calling this out as scummy behavior. Again - his best defense has been "oh I didn't mean

counterwagon

when I called Hercule a

counterwagon

". Sometimes when scum tells you they're scum, you should believe them.

I've highlighted problems with 1173, 1176, and 1187 and the gratuitous stretch needed to get those mental gymnastics in place.

---

Ythan being inexplicably cagey with Dann in the early 2200s. And Oka.

---

This:

I read the first half of the game quite closely, but have skimmed most of it since then tbh.

does not square with

this:

It's going to take more than a skim-through to solidify my reads.

And definitely not with having three charmin townreads and no scumreads.

---

Hey

@IV

i doubt it's an intentional misrep from mastina even if she is scum and you feel she misrepped you?

Very weird defense of mastina here. Why?

[AGar]

You read roughly 47 pages closely and you had those soft reads?


Lol

[AGar]

[snip]
I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

[AGar]

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town

Because you're specifically picking a single word that, again, has a very very specific definition and trying to say "no I used that word but I did not mean the specific thing that has been defined on this site for at least 12 years".

"scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order" Scum!hop just tried to slide one by and got called on it. Scum!hop was too smug and thought he could get away with one. It looks like scum!hop is doing something but scum!hop is just making shit up to support his shitty pushes. You literally used it to try and justify the wagon on LLD - you painted it as "one of many counterwagons to LLD." The only reason counterwagons are even being discussed wrt LLD is because some people are trying to use "resistance" that never existed to point out why LLD is scum, and you're just throwing more bad fuel onto that fire. I fucking wonder why.

I'm nitpicking a word because you have a habit of saying something and when called on it you're being coy with "oh I didn't actually mean that," and that's fucking scummy as hell because it lets you wriggle out of any fucking position you take with a simple handwave.

Eat. A. Yeet.

[AGar]

[snip]
I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

How many times you think you've had to say this this game?

This is my problem, I think. This is my issue with this game. We can't just have people who decide that playign mafia with a 2nd grader's reading comprehension skills is too much for them to do.

It's constantly people who are misrepresenting points in big long posts and when called on it make more big long posts

and then people rushing to their defense being like "they're doing misreps, but is it really scum?"

I'm gonna quote a favourite person of mine on this topic.

They might not be mafia, but they're definitely scum. - SpyreX

I'm starting to just lean towards "kill all the baddies, let the mod sort them out" too.

I've been doing this dance for over 200 pages and honestly it's removing any semblance of enjoyment from this game.

[AGar]

this is me noting that winter flakes (alt of uncrowned) has somehow begun to blend into the scenery so thoroughly i think i forgot he existed

Yeahhh just kinda noticed this.

[AGar]

I wish I could throw this game and start day one again

I swear to fucking Christ...

fake

Homie we went 145 pages without a flip, restarted and now we're approaching Page 100 again. I dunno about you but this is definitively Not Fun for me at this point.

[AGar]

I wish I could throw this game and start day one again

I swear to fucking Christ...

fake

Homie we went 145 pages without a flip, restarted and now we're approaching Page 100 again. I dunno about you but this is definitively Not Fun for me at this point.

Who do you want to kill most, 3 names

Hopkirk
Luca





Winter Flakes

[AGar]

LLD I have :thoughts: on Ceph that disagree with what your view is, and I think it's due to Not Being You. But I think Ceph is town.

[AGar]

the auro/xtoxm interactions are what moved me from strongtown to locktown on you...

*whistles in "Auro is not in this game how can two teammates paraphrased interactions sway you??"*

P-Edit:

@LLD

I mean burnout is a very real thing here and I can empathize with Ceph just feeling exhausted and tired of fighting when the case on you is apparently that your wagon has met tremendous amounts of resistance when multiple of us have pointed out that that was patently false. Like I would love to see more fight too but it's tough to fight against people making facts up on the fly.

[AGar]

@Hopkirk

Homie, I don't negotiate with terrorists or scum. I have approached your posts with "why would town do this and why would scum do this?" and you keep doing shit that I simply thing "scum would be more likely to do this because there are benefits." I don't need to engage with you any more to get anything - you can keep posting and I can just keep gleaning information. If you did something that I felt was more likely to come from town, I would say that. I don't think you have. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[AGar]

Hopkirk is still scum.

But.

I'm so tired. And I'm not townreading Ythan.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ythan

[AGar]

@LLD

No I know. It's a large, we need a yeet, deadline approaches, all that fun shit.

The main beats are in 2123, 2340, and 2372.

[AGar]

Please end me you're all terrible.

Compelling.

[AGar]

I think Mastina read on you is the most convincing read in the game

What post # of Mastina's convinced you to see this supposed light?

[AGar]

Yeah no, don't like this shift to Titus here. I'll stay on Ythan for the moment.

[AGar]

I would say I'd love to know what about 2250 was so enlightening that jjh backed off of his premise in 2134 and 2136 that he found Titus largely unreadable, but I'd be lying. I don't want to know.

[AGar]

IV - in what world is evidence that runs counter to what you have asserted thus far not "things going wrong"?

[AGar]

I get that mastina is not popular for some of you all this game but I think scum are going to double down on blanket-discrediting mastina and that's what I'm seeing from Titus and it's giving me a weird vibe

I think you're putting too much faith into mastina and blindly following her off of a cliff.

[AGar]

what's the basis for the ythan wagon? i'm getting v similar vibes from last game from him

tbh it seems like a bit of a bail out wagon imo

i started suspecting him toward the end of the original game and i don't think he's diverged too far off of that this game which leads me to believe its TI

infinity agrees with this and doesnt think ythans play here would make sense for scum

And your suggestion would be?

[AGar]

Oka's posting for now is leaving me happy with my vote, makin' them goodpoints.

[AGar]

I wish I knew whether you were actually any good at this game AGar.

Me too.

[AGar]

I'm not scumreading ythan

They're not much above null but still, I don't want to compromise there

Where

will

you compromise?

Like people keep saying they don't love this but then offer no other options and sit on their vanity wagons. Like fuck, I'd love to yeet Hopkirk into the sun but that's clearly not happening to day and we're less than 3 days until deadline. If you don't love the wagon, whatever, but offer somewhere to coalition.

[AGar]

Ythan's wagon shifting so suddenly to Titus with no resistance and no real actual reasoning other than the vibes brigade restarting their shenanigans should be fucking warning sirens for anyone and everyone.

[AGar]

Ythan's wagon shifting so suddenly to Titus with no resistance and no real actual reasoning other than the vibes brigade restarting their shenanigans should be fucking warning sirens for anyone and everyone.

No resistance? Not sure about that.

But resistance is fake anyway so eh

Resistance was the wrong word, yeah.

But we went from Ythan 8 to Titus 4 in a page with nothing revelatory from Ythan and it was just a naked vote where y'all just seamlessly moved. Big dislike.

[AGar]

Ythan, where are you falling on IV?

[AGar]

Nothing gleaned from the terse exchanges yesterday?

[AGar]

Do you think I'm going to change my answer when you ask that or what.

It would give me insight into if anything moved yesterday for you, considering you were throwing some hefty shade on why he was asking you the questions he was asking. I realize he's null now. Trying to figure out if he was null before and follow thought processes.

[AGar]

Got it.

[AGar]

titus is over. come vote scum with me.

Compelling.

[AGar]

I mean for personality, this is very much Who Ythan Is, Oka.

[AGar]

Because none of my top choices to get yeeted are going to happen today, multiple people have told me they want to shelve at least one of them for future days. It's less than 48 hours until deadline. Ythan is fairly null for me and is in the pile of "I won't be burnt up if we yeet them." I don't want to yeet LLD or Titus.

I also think the quick shift off of Ythan yesterday was gross and very much didn't like it and that makes me want to flip Ythan even more.

[AGar]

That would require me to validate anything about how mastina parses this game.

[AGar]

pedit: can you pretend it didn't come from mastina and just address the idea in a vacuum

If you read my very small ISO, you can actually get an answer to what she hypothesizes.

[AGar]

but if you don't think any of the people that facilitated the change (me, Cephrir, Dannflor) are null to scum, that's important right?

No it's not.

[AGar]

Also your attempt to throw someone off with pre-flip associatives is noted and filed.

[AGar]

To be clear:

- I don't have strong reads on any of the three of you. I have leans here and there but nothing that I would stake out as a confident read.
- Three players abruptly left the Ythan wagon onto Titus and then a fourth player who wasn't on Ythan jumped on to Titus.
- A wagon hitting E-2 and then falling apart *for no apparent reason* and another wagon springing up is alarming.

I am simply implying that even town players can just fuck up but a wagon reaching a point of E-2 and then dissipating is alarm bells about *the player that that wagon is on*. It is not simply tied to the three of you. It's tied to JJH. It's tied to if anyone else dodged out on the wagon before it fell off. It is tied to - and hold up if you've heard this before - getting an actual flip before I try and say for certainty what it says about any other player besides the player that the wagon was on.

[AGar]

last thing i think: if you theoretically knew the 3 of us were locktown would it also raise alarm bells for you that Ythan is scum? ik it's a hypothetical but im trying to get a better sense for how you think wagon Ythan and Titus

also by alarm bells you mean this game event makes town!Titus more likely and scum!Ythan more likely, right (and maybe a side of scum!jj more likely)?

So basically you're asking if the three of you were ICs, how would that change my perspective. Short version is it wouldn't. One, ICs aren't infallible and I think more often than not people put too much weight into their reads. Two, and more importantly, looking at something like "hey wow this wagon started to burgeon and then dissipated and shifted rapidly" isn't just about the folks who were on then left the wagon. There's 18 players in the game. You need to take into account all 18 of them and how they play in.

Lld didn't get the reputation people have been talking about all game playing like this. I think it's lazy scum.

LLD didn't get her scum reputation, her "BoP" reputation, or her overall reputation?

haha im gonna feel guilty if we miss now i'm so not used to succeeding

I feel like I should, but I don't know your top choice? Is it Bell? Or am I missing something as everything blurs together into the most atrocious hellscape?

That would be voting you (being the top wagon) because my most sincere wish is for this day to finally end

Ythan isn't the top wagon? There are two with more votes than Ythan. And then 2764 is incongruent with "my most sincere wish is for this day to finally end," given you vote for *checks notes* OkaPoka? Who has *checks notes again* 1 vote?

That seems a lot of words for very little content.

This post coming from this player is :chef's kiss:

a side note that if ythan-dgb-lld are all town that it doesn't really matter which wagon scum are on

What inspired you to say this?

---

Someone remind me to go in deeper on 2814 and that "I'm going to say something but also couch it with a 'haha this is sarcasm' just in case" shit on D2 when we can address this scum once again.

---

But also, AGar literally just 100% gave up in scum PT and self-hammered that moment he saw that case.

Not entirely?

The self-hammer was to fuck up any potential wagon analysis and cut discussion short so there were fewer posts for associative tells. Once I saw there was intent to hammer and I was at E-1, the optimal play was just a contentless self-hammer so I didn't say anything more. We lost the plot on that game Day 1 when Pooky lolchallenged and that particularly fucked up how I like to play as scum, and I really wanted my partners to turbobus me on Day 2 once it became apparent we were going to have a pool with 3 scum in it. Basically Legends was a weird setup but also the first scumgame I had in something like 7 or 8 years, and I'm not really thrilled with how that game went at all.

[AGar]

When you like dann's pushback on Xtoxm/Auro but hate the next conclusion he comes to.

[AGar]

then there's a nebulous group of people that could be scum but I haven't and don't have the energy to sort them out this phase

you keep making references to "groups of people" in vague platitudes and never actually naming even like one name. Wanna expound on this group a little, or the "group that's not really taking a side"? Like just name some names if you feel it's too distracting to go beyond that given proximity to deadline.

[AGar]

These wagons are going from meh to godawful.

Compelling.

[AGar]

Like we're fucking 24 hours to deadline. Just potshot bitching about "man these wagons suck" isn't getting us anywhere.

[AGar]

Shouldn't you of all people be the most upset with the game going to deadline like this?

I burned out on emotions like... Sunday. I'm exasperated. People won't even consider hopkirk, and they lost interest in the Luca slot after Hercule replaced out. I tried to coalition with LLD to move to Ythan who is still fairly just null for me, and somehow now the leading wagons are LLD and DGB, neither of which I want to yeet. So I too think the wagons suck. And I'm very tired, but I'm still at least trying to figure something out because I have a lot of people who are just "meh I could go either way on them," and I'd like to have a better idea of where things stand tomorrow.

[AGar]

Okay, but I can't force people to vote.

Nowhere in my post do I demand this?

[AGar]

You're bitching about my bitching.

I mean, yes, I would like you to do something since there was a wagon on your slot earlier and reading you will help me read other players, but you're not really giving much to work with and you might as well just go full V/LA if you're literally only going to say "wow this all sucks deuces!"

[AGar]

Like jesus fuck, if you want to complain about how mafia on this site sucks, there's an entire General Discussion forum for that.

P-Edit: It's still LLD vs DGB.

[AGar]

I would expand that to dann/iv too

[AGar]

Like jesus fuck, if you want to complain about how mafia on this site sucks, there's an entire General Discussion forum for that.

P-Edit: It's still LLD vs DGB.

I like Mafia and I don't think this site sucks.
I'm just surprised that this game with this plist has let the game degrade to this point.
I get your frustration with my posting style being somewhat short and hard to read but that's just your playstyle and this is mine. I don't write wall cases and spell things out like you do, nor do I want to. My points are often interspersed throughout my posts. But my trajectories are fairly clear (well except when I flip on a dime).

I'm just filling the role of telling people to get a move on in my own bitchy way because that's roughly what the game needs.

The GD quip was more just a general joke.

As for the rest, I actually just can't follow where you're at besides Ceph is maybe scum but maybe not and you don't like the wagons. That's all I've got thus far, and it feels lacking. *shrug*

[AGar]

The post where jjh talks about mafia players like they don't have tremendous egos gets funnier and funnier the longer this day goes.

[AGar]

even if you get to L-1 and intent?

Homie, we're 20 hours from deadline, a claim is a waste at this point. If you wanted claims you should've pushed for consolidation like a week ago.

[AGar]

Oka: I actively dislike both wagons, and also have the convenience of outside of probably 2 AM Eastern to about 7-9 AM Eastern I'll be able to keep tabs on the thread. I'll move before deadline.

[AGar]

Pinky swear.

[AGar]

Refusal to claim is a scum claim.

No, it isn't? In fact, I think claims are largely bad for town because town will often give a claim a night to "prove itself" barring circumstances like a counter or a deadline and that lets scum skate by if they fake claim and PR hunt based on responses, plus an extra night of being alive. Creates a reliance on night play which is often suboptimal and bad.

[AGar]

Refusal to claim is a scum claim.

No, it isn't? In fact, I think claims are largely bad for town because town will often give a claim a night to "prove itself" barring circumstances like a counter or a deadline and that lets scum skate by if they fake claim and PR hunt based on responses, plus an extra night of being alive. Creates a reliance on night play which is often suboptimal and bad.

Does that mean I can get away with not claiming, too?

I really don't care about claims. So it's not going to sway my opinion.

[AGar]

Let's see what happens in the next 6-7 hours.

[AGar]

VOTE: DGB

It's the wagon I hate slightly less.

I'm here right up until deadline and will check back in regularly to see if I need to switch to LLD, but I don't plan on switching any time sooner than half an hour to deadline.

[AGar]

Why do you hate the DGB wagon less?

DGB has posited a few times things that are just... incorrect mafia theory, to try and anchor a read. I think it's just being off, and I still townread DGB, but it's less strong than my townread on LLD.

[AGar]

[AGar]

Someone remind me to go in deeper on 2814 and that "I'm going to say something but also couch it with a 'haha this is sarcasm' just in case" shit on D2 when we can address this scum once again.

also

Ythan's wagon shifting so suddenly to Titus with no resistance and no real actual reasoning other than the vibes brigade restarting their shenanigans should be fucking warning sirens for anyone and everyone.

No resistance? Not sure about that.

But resistance is fake anyway so eh

Resistance was the wrong word, yeah.

But we went from Ythan 8 to Titus 4 in a page with nothing revelatory from Ythan and it was just a naked vote where y'all just seamlessly moved. Big dislike.

stop trying to rewrite the narrative! using resistance when it's the wrong word? wtf. obvscum. you need to be very exact and just because someone could easily get your intent/point if they were reading objectively rather than reading with a goal (not that i have thoughts on this scenario) doesn't mean it's ok to use words that

could

mean something else in a different context, but not the context they're in where the meaning is incredibly clear

ah, good old parallels

(obviously this is meant to be sarcastic)

Hey look Hopkirk once again couching an accusation with "jk haha... but what if... nah jk haha," so he can flip whichever way the wind blows, while he was actually begging anyone who townread me to justify it when we were steamrolling towards deadline and yeeting me was not a realistic possibility. Would love to actually have some folks actually acknowledge that hop is a scumbag and we can yeet the fuck out of him.

---

I agree mostly with dunn's split, though I would make Ythan a higher priority today solely based on the way wagons played out yesterday. IV's early posting is concerning today. Lots of pangs I don't like.

VOTE: Ythan

[AGar]

if someone would like to case me go right fucking ahead

don't hide behind your nebulous bullshit shade

fucking come right at me and i will tear your bullshit apart

you are not misexing me here

I mean this post is a good starting point. Like no one has suggested you should even be yeeted today at this point and you're coming in hot like you got turbo wagonned to critical mass.

[AGar]

3297 is way more likely to come from town than scum

Yeah after you said mafia players can't possibly have egos big enough to think they got caught for the wrong reasons, I'm not really putting any stock in anything you say.

[AGar]

3297 is way more likely to come from town than scum

Yeah after you said mafia players can't possibly have egos big enough to think they got caught for the wrong reasons, I'm not really putting any stock in anything you say.

when did he say this?

here and here.

[AGar]

I don't fully buy into VCA as the one true way or any of that shit and a lot of folks draw bad conclusions from it, but what do you suggest we do, High Overlord Ceph, he of the bitching and vibing?

[AGar]

3297 is way more likely to come from town than scum

Yeah after you said mafia players can't possibly have egos big enough to think they got caught for the wrong reasons, I'm not really putting any stock in anything you say.

when did he say this?

here and here.

I haven't continued this debate because I didn't think it was exactly productive to, but I've never seen a player complain at the end of the game or in the scum PT about how they've been caught for the wrong reasons

I haven't seen it so it don't exist.

Okay, Thomas.

[AGar]

@a50 do you believe there is a chance of an sk?

As I said, it's 90% a Vig vs 10% SK to me. If it ain't banned by the rules it is still possible. It's just improbable.

Where in the mod provided number of 14 town would you slot the SK?

[AGar]

I don't fully buy into VCA as the one true way or any of that shit and a lot of folks draw bad conclusions from it, but what do you suggest we do, High Overlord Ceph, he of the bitching and vibing?

Thanks, that was necessary

I suggest we kill jjh and vig ythan

Infinitely more necessary than your "donor" joke.

Why?

[AGar]

@a50 do you believe there is a chance of an sk?

As I said, it's 90% a Vig vs 10% SK to me. If it ain't banned by the rules it is still possible. It's just improbable.

Where in the mod provided number of 14 town would you slot the SK?

OK, so it's confirmed there's no SK in this game. We just had a bad Vig shot, and I am recommending they stop shooting TPRs.

What a spicy take.

[AGar]

3449 is a bad post. So is 3473.

Right now I believe the following players are Town:

IV
Mastina
Ceph
Poka
A50
AGar

y tho?

Based on the D1 wagons I think it's unlikely both Titus and Ythan are scum, and right now I'm leaning towards Titus being the more likely of the two as her play seems more calculated than Ythan's.

why do either of them have to be scum..?

What do you think the odds are that we had significant wagons on four town players yesterday?

at no point am i saying it's a joke

(obviously this is meant to be sarcastic)

*whistles*

how are the lld voters really claiming their wagon on lld was pure when they couldnt explain why she was scum, just why she wasnt town

Because self examination would ruin their circle jerk.

3 in (Titus/Agar/Bell/Winter Flakes (alt of Uncrowned), Oka, JJH, Ythan, A50) + deepwolf?

You're shading *checks notes* more than half of the living playerlist.

Spicy!

I also know that replace outs are statistically more likely to be mafia.

You, uh, wanna back up this bullshit somehow?

[AGar]

Ok y'know what I'm not gonna read that and just go with "ok cool you actually have statistical proof."

[AGar]

I was expecting an MD thread, not some fucking research paper that I cannot actually comprehend.

[AGar]

I'm too much of a dipshit for that level of commitment, tbh.

Just bravo.

[AGar]

VOTE: mastina

Case me or die. I want to have this out. I may not respond right away but I want you solved. No more vague meta statements. If I am wrong on you, I should be able to see you having genuine logic here, even if wrong.

This feels like Titus knows a case on her in incoming and she's trying to preemptively discredit it.

This is not a good argument

3449 is a bad post. So is 3473.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, guys.

I'm not here to tell scum how to post better.

[AGar]

Poka has been perhaps the most proactive player this game and was solving with more and more urgency as the deadline grew nearer

What, in your eyes, is the definition of "solving"?

[AGar]

Does it matter whether he dumbtold or not when it's about whether a third party role can be in the game?

I see +scum utility in trying to lead town on a goose chase for a SK/discredit a potential vig claim.

[AGar]

if the people i need to flip ythan are no longer going to vote ythan then its not happening. lld voters arent going to swap.

LLD had SIX VOTES AT THE TIME. That leaves TWELVE other votes (including yours) which was 2 more than needed to get the job done. Furthermore, "assuming" people won't switch isn't good play either. Evidently LLD was wagoned early game and then the hercule wagon overtook it. She was wagoned again mid-day and the worst took over. She was wagoned a third time and Ythan made it to E-2. Why would you assume "4th time is lucky charm" (so to speak)?

I don't even know what you're angry about right now to be honest. Whatever point you are trying to make is lost in just *words*

[AGar]

YOU were leading the wagon on Ythan yesterday.

Narrator: Oka was not, in fact, leading the Ythan wagon yesterday.

[AGar]

@A50

So the theory you're yeeting into the universe is that Oka is scum because Oka is expending energy to push away from a Ythan-buddy yeet, correct?

[AGar]

I swear to fuck if he just dawdled off while I'm up at 3:45 in the morning...

[AGar]

Oka I am trying to do the real time thing and A50 is just *GONE*

[AGar]

You were complaining I wasn't playing the game. Now you're upset I am??

I have never said this once. Idk who you're mixing me up with.

Aaaanyways, the rest of the Ythan wagon didn't kick up until LLD moved to get consolidation amongst those of us on some vanity wagons. Then it petered out around 8 votes, fell apart, and people shifted to Titus.

I would like you to answer 3750, directly, and specifically. You haven't done that much here.

[AGar]

Use your god damned p-edit and you'd see that I pointed out the Ythan wagon didn't kick up until LLD got involved and there was discussion of consolidation.

[AGar]

Fuck, I gotta go to bed.

@A50

Just fucking answer 3750 straight up before I wake up in like 4 and a half hours.

[AGar]

@A50

So the theory you're yeeting into the universe is that Oka is scum because Oka is expending energy to push away from a Ythan-buddy yeet, correct?

Yes and no. Yes, I am using that now to make the connection between the two for WHEN Ythan flips red, and no because Oka was ALSO a supect of mine for the whole game. See my first proposed solve in 727, followed by ny first posted read list in 730, and -to make a long story short- just to my first post of D2 (3233).

So, if your question is "Is this your case on Oka?" or "Is this

the

reason you SR Oka?" the answer is no. If the question is "Do you think they're Scum together and are providing your reasoning for it?" the answer is yes.

I'm going to largely ignore a bullshit solve from 2500 posts ago - but I note that you were suspicious of Oka throughout D1, and it tracks in your ISO.

You cite 3233, but in 3233, you have two solves - Ythan and Oka are in distinctly different solves. Now suddenly, even though Oka's behavior towards Ythan has been consistent from towards the end of D1, they're scum together. You're specifically pairing them at this point.

My big issue is you're seemingly tying Oka to an Ythan flip - regardless of your prior suspicions, your wording has changed and you're haranguing Oka and appealing with phrases like "When Ythan flips red." Your vote is on Ythan last I checked. And your continued aggression towards Oka suggests your read on him is becoming more and more hinged on an Ythan flip, that Oka is chainsawing Ythan. These are specific buddying accusations.

So:

1) Why are you not expending literally any energy trying to get a wagon on Ythan pushed further?
2) If your scumread on Oka is independent of Ythan, case it. And explain why you're abandoning your "solves" in 3233 so rapidly.
3) Hypothetically, if Ythan was an IC, how does that impact your opinion of Oka?

Aaaanyways, the rest of the Ythan wagon didn't kick up until LLD moved to get consolidation amongst those of us on some vanity wagons. Then it petered out around 8 votes, fell apart, and people shifted to Titus.

Wrong again: here's the full VC:

Vote Count 1.19

Ythan

(8): OkaPoka, Luca Blight, Dannflor, Cephrir, Lady Lambdadelta, Titus, AGar, innocentvillager

Lady Lambdadelta

(5): DrippingGoofball, Xtoxm, mastina, Ythan, jjh927

DrippingGoofball

(2): Dunnstral, Bell

Bell

(1): Winter Flakes

AGar

(1): Hopkirk

Not Voting

(1): Almost50

I mean, technically it did happen after LLD's call for consolidation, but the VC clearly shows it wasn't exactly a consolidation process. (Plua the Titus wagon took off AFTER this)

I will simply point out that I was one of the votes on the wagon - I know how it happened, and it wasn't seriously moving forward until LLD tried to rally up a wagon. I'm not "wrong again" - you're trying to manipulate what happened based on posts absent context and just pulling what works for you.

---

3814 - I don't know how anyone could call it "dishonest" to attack mastina for suddenly being unsure of a scumread when asked to vote that scumread given... mastina.

[AGar]

Also hmm brain says that if Hopkirk actually had conviction in his read on me, he'd properly case me to try and get traction on it instead of just voting and then going "whyyyy does no one agree with me?"

[AGar]

Also look how pure that Ythan wagon is

It's crazy we live in a world where a player could post this.

Calling shit pure without a flip is a very weird thing that people on this site do and I still laugh when people think mafia players don't have outrageous egos.

[AGar]

Jjh and ythan are both acceptable votes. Let's make those happen.

You're posting like the day phase is almost over. Por que?

[AGar]

1) What more can I do? You tell me.
2) I can only vote one person at a time, so I don't really need to make a case on someone I'm not voting today.

1) You could exert energy on that slot at least somewhat close to what you're exerting on Oka.
2) You've spent almost all of your Day 2 energy on Oka, yet you won't make a formal case, because "you aren't voting them", but you won't do anything about the person you're voting?

VOTE: Almost50

[AGar]

Which, again: makes me skeptical of the Announcing Babysitter-visit claim from Titus.

Me, pointing out that a scumteam would have 15 coaches all who would be able to chime in directly or indirectly that this claim would receive this exact scrutiny.

[AGar]

If it walks like scum, talks like scum and votes like scum, maybe it's just scum.

VOTE: ythan

What finally pushed you?

[AGar]

If it walks like scum, talks like scum and votes like scum, maybe it's just scum.

VOTE: ythan

What finally pushed you?

[AGar]

The fact that he's still cheerleading for a50 votes after I've pointed out that none of what he's done makes him scum.

So you think it's a town thing to vote Player A, spend all of your effort on how Player B is inextricably linked to Player A, not vote Player B, and not exert any force to get other players to vote Player A? Orrrrr

[AGar]

The fact that he's still cheerleading for a50 votes after I've pointed out that none of what he's done makes him scum.

So you think it's a town thing to vote Player A, spend all of your effort on how Player B is inextricably linked to Player A, not vote Player B, and not exert any force to get other players to vote Player A? Orrrrr

Sure. Whatever straw opinion you want to attribute to me.

I mean, this is more what I recently pointed out and I'd like to see how it weighs into your opinion on A50.

[AGar]

Like, right now I have this as the bottom half of my read list:

[*]innocentvillager, representing Class of 2175
[*]Bell the worst, representing Daylight Savings Time
[*]AGar, representing Pa-Ni-Nis
[*]Luca Blight hercule, representing Onlyregfans
[*]jjh927, representing All your Scummies belong to us
[*]Hopkirk, representing Team 'Team 'Team' Team' Team
[*]OkaPoka, representing Suicide Squad

Yet the scumfuck is still voting for Ythan.

Curious!

[AGar]

Xtoxm I have some troubling news for you.

[AGar]

Sometimes a scumfuck claims scum in thread and you yeet the fucker. It's pretty straightforward.

[AGar]

agar patience

trust the process

Have you

seen

the 76ers? That shit took like 6 years!

[AGar]

Actually, doing a quick ISO of the MOD I realized AGar was voting Ythan while he was demanding I push him harder!!! Like, why wasn't HE doing what he was asking of me? (Not that I agree that I wasn't pushing Ythan hard enough to begin with, but it seems pretty odd to ask someone to do the push on your vote target when you are doing even less in that regard).

I wasn't also exerting a tremendous amount of energy on Oka while my vote was parked on Ythan. :shrug:

Also hmm brain says that if Hopkirk actually had conviction in his read on me, he'd properly case me to try and get traction on it instead of just voting and then going "whyyyy does no one agree with me?"

[AGar]

5 random people

I mean, it's not straight up random though because wagons formed and dissipated based on something.

[AGar]

I can't wait for someone to come in with another fucking research paper that shows that we're less accurate than random selection in situations like that.

[AGar]

Shameless "I need a night off bc work, will get to this tomorrow" post.

[AGar]

no, we can't, because he's plainly town and has been the whole god damn time.

I, y'know, tacitly disagree with this.

Or AGar for that matter or IV.

you're the designated town player who gets dragged over the finish line kicking and screaming this game. accept it now and save some noise.

I mean, I can stick up for myself when it's needed, but Ythan wasn't really all that "noisy" in this post.

a50 when did you start TRing me? from what i remember you didnt like me for the majority of the game

What have you done to like or dislike, exactly?

i don't have enough hubris to bet the game that aggressively

Idk, the rest of your posting suggests otherwise.

As a matter of fact, I will reassert that I'll be on one FROM YOUR TOWN CORE LIST.

See if you were town you wouldn't make posts like this.

Keely said something about Bell needing to die for a post, but didn't give me a post # so I should badger him about that.

[AGar]

lmao how have you not reevaluated your reads

Have you met mastina?

i was targeted by an announcing role that i think is more likely to be scum aligned (especially assuming town!A50 +provides weak Bayesian evidence for town!A50 on a couple of levels)

Ah yes, more scum posting from Hopkirk.

I'd make a Bernie meme right now but I need to work so

I am once again asking you to VOTE: Hopkirk

Just fucking yeet the scumbag.

[AGar]

Man, people on this fuckin' site lol.

"I am locktowning X in addition to Y, Z, A, and B"
*X flips scum*
"I am confident starting with my townblock from yesterday."

Y'all fuckin' kill me.

[AGar]

one deepwolf is possible, i don't see myself locktowning two scum

I mean, if you were actually town you'd reconsider that your reads have been absolute shit this game, but you're not so.

[AGar]

Hopkirk is still scum, y'all

Bullet points from 2340

• Specifically throwing RC's name out
  at LLD
  , knowing that it could derail the attention of a strong scumhunter, under the guise of a joke is scummy as shit. This was a couple hundred posts and 24+ hours after the initial comment by LLD. Why bring it up other than to throw kerosene on a fire and see if you can derail it? (1142)
  
• Persistent using one word then when called, trying to backtrack and saying he used that word but meant a different thing. This isn't just a mistake one time and going "ah right, I misused that," it's a consistent pattern of trying to weasel out of being held accountable. ([A] 2079 initial + 2089 backtrack.
  2814 initial + 3502 backtrack.)
  
• Recycling previous scumhunting points used by others and deliberately manipulating either the facts of what happened or the intent of the point to fit his narrative to try and bolster fake scumhunting. (2091)
  
• Any pressure has been attempted to be discredited with the insinuation that things are personal as opposed to being scumhunting - discrediting and no actual defense. (1642, 2089)

[AGar]

P.S. I am already voting jjh, but I can switch to AGar if that wagon gets closer to lim.

At the time of you posting this there are 2 votes on Hopkirk and 0 votes on me.

OK.. one Scum in Hop/AGar (pet theory it's Hop now. Explanation to follow)

3 posts ago you were willing to yeet me and made no mention of trying to yeet hopkirk. The explanation never followed.

So, which of Mastina/IV/Xtoxm/Ceph do you SR? Hop had 6 people in his Townblock. Luca flipped read and Dunn flipped green already. these are the living 4. Which of them is Scum to you, and why?

Why do any of them need to be scum?

hop is mechanically untouchable today.

Yeah you're going to have to do better than a vanilla cop+ could have potentially a result on him that doesn't clear or not clear him.

It's a haystack.

Haaaaaa.

[AGar]

Also mastina has the two players I want to yeet most as town and also had Luca as very town so I am very comfortable in the fact that Almost50 and Hopkirk need to fucking diediedie.

[AGar]

Yeah you're going to have to do better than a vanilla cop+ could have potentially a result on him that doesn't clear or not clear him.

Bzzt! Wrong! There is no sense in eliminating there today at all.

Because he said someone visited him? Because there's no way he could lie about that, right?

Also like, mastina thinking someone is town isn't actually a good reason to elim them that's just a meme.

I mean I've actually listed out on both of those players, but that would require you reading a post that was more three fucking sentences and we all know that's too much of an inconvenience for you to do.

Keely thinks it's garbage that y'all are choosing to ignore the actual case I presented on hopkirk, relying on the crutch of "mechanics". I think y'all are just bad. :shrug:

@A50

4755 was so fucking hilariously bad - you should have like 11 coaches at your disposal to help you make better posts as scum.

[AGar]

Clarifying for Keely, because I'm terrible at paraphrasing: he does believe that yeeting Hop would be suboptimal in the technical sense, and his comment was aimed at the game at large, not @Ceph or any one person. Also per Keely if (when) Hop is revealed to be scum, mastina needs to eat a yeet.

Parenthetical mine. Fuck I hate paraphrasing.

Because he said someone visited him? Because there's no way he could lie about that, right?

why do you care so much if we catch scum today vs tomorrow?

....

I'm not here to play this game on hard mode because of the cult of PRs.

I mean I've actually listed out on both of those players, but that would require you reading a post that was more three fucking sentences and we all know that's too much of an inconvenience for you to do.

I read it. You don't need to be a dick.

I mean I kinda do because people aren't reading my posts, yet again, and then accusing me of shit like you did. I said that mastina's read simply boosted my confidence, but you decided to take a stray shot like that was all I had going for my reads. So again, I don't think you're reading my posts. But this isn't new for me I'm just mad at the world.

About half of the points you made resonated with me and Hopkirk has been on my suspect list since day 1 where he remains. I'm hardly the person to bitch at about this.

Consider then, how it appears that I have been beating the fucking drum about Hopkirk since Day 1 and I've gotten a lot of "oh yeah, that's true, but

not today

for three straight fucking days."

fuck mech, mY ReADs R bEtTEr
youre fucking terrible

Rich! Is Auro still piloting this game for you or did you decide to play?

[AGar]

Like y'all are fawning over a potential TPR that may or may not exist and mastina's "reads" and ignoring scum and y'all are gonna set us back even fucking further. Fuck all this noise.

[AGar]

No one ever fucking considered that scum might *gasp*

lie

.

[AGar]

Why do you think Hopkirk would lie about something highly provable

Buying time is always pretty good for scum power. This is, idk, fucking basic.

maybe we should just give scum a list of nk targets at this point

Look who's talking, The very same person that insisted I should target outside of a 6-names list, thus giving scum 6 clear targets (well, 6 minus the number of scums in it).

Speaking of, who'd you target last night, scum? Not sure why we're just letting your ass slide by like a greased sled.

Agar specifically took something that was clearly intended between a joke and used it to try and start conflict between me/LLD – a TvT. Like it’s clearly just outright attempting to stir up issues between town

This is really the only thing worth addressing in here: I very specifically did not attempt to bring LLD into this. I very specifically only called you out for this because it was scummy as shit. Whether you think that means I think you're a dickbag is not relevant to me. Scum play to win this game, and derailing a strong town player is a strategy that is just as prevelant as players like Xtoxm simply not playing the game when they pull a scum role PM.

Also Keely has pointed out that a lot of your case revolves on me not trying to solve you via directly engaging with you. Newsflash: That's not really my preferred method and never has been.

hey agar what does your team think about your case, specifically the bit about the RC joke?

Well I'm never fucking listening to my teammates again.

(I have to ask them, Keely has mentioned that he thinks it's entirely possible Hopkirk is just high strung very incorrect town, but there's not much commentary beyond that)

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mastina

Oka, I am w/ you, despite how much I'm gonna die.

Also Bell brings up a good point in 4925 - I would hope someone voting me isn't "locktowning" me.

[AGar]

Tbh, I'd say that NOT doing things that will definitely get you elimed before the end of the game is fucking basic

Do you really think Hopkirk was making it to endgame?

[AGar]

jjh dropped a surefire 100% towntell that guarantees he is town this game. But I admit: without explaining the tell, I'm not sure how to convince others that he is town. In order to explain why he's town I'd have to out the tell, but I don't want to because if I did he'd be the guaranteed nightkill tonight. (The tell is that strong.)

Mastina is undoubtedly the player with greatest awareness of my gameplay on site. I think there's maybe one thing and no more that I could put out that I don't think she'd catch that another player would

This is self serving as

fuck

.

[AGar]

jjh dropped a surefire 100% towntell that guarantees he is town this game. But I admit: without explaining the tell, I'm not sure how to convince others that he is town. In order to explain why he's town I'd have to out the tell, but I don't want to because if I did he'd be the guaranteed nightkill tonight. (The tell is that strong.)

Mastina is undoubtedly the player with greatest awareness of my gameplay on site. I think there's maybe one thing and no more that I could put out that I don't think she'd catch that another player would

This is self serving as

fuck

.

You're damn right it is

Does this matter?

I'm gonna let you think about that one and guess what my answer is.

[AGar]

Speaking of, who'd you target last night, scum? Not sure why we're just letting your ass slide by like a greased sled.

Why do you want to know? Anyway, I am not claiming my target, but they can feel free to claim I visited them if they want to.

This is a S C U M reply.

[AGar]

that's not exactly trying to get hercule voted off

You seem to have forgotten I spent a large chunk of D1 pontificating that we should yeet you. I don't know how, since you've taken so much offense to it, but I promise that that was in fact my MO day 1!

[AGar]

Yes, I was trying to frame it better in the post in which I specifically said I was trying to get you yeeted.

Vanity would imply I parked a vote and then, y'know, didn't try and get anything going beyond that. Or do you not mean "vanity" this time? Just because no one bit doesn't mean I didn't attempt anything.

[AGar]

Sorry forgot the /s tag to help you out after the first line.

[AGar]

Also, since we're gonna go down this road:

The first hercule wagon, I suggested I would vote in 880. Hercule was sitting at 6 votes at that point in time (VC 1.4), but I was very openly posting while working and wanted to do some things that required my full attention. Instead, work devoured me, my mental health was at an all time low, I dipped out for as long as I could to get my shit straightened out, and then by the time I caught up in 1616, hercule was no longer a viable wagon and LLD had sprung up as the choice. (VCs 1.10 & 1.11.) I decided to push at hopkirk since that was a stone that hadn't been moved around at that point.

The Luca wagon on Day 2 basically went from 4 votes to a yeet while I wasn't in the thread. So not really much I can say about that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

P-Edit: The wagon on hercule had fizzled out by the time I voted you, so try again scumbag.

[AGar]

i think mastina's reads-from-mars on both of these players are fairly likely to be her trying to protect one or more buddies, frankly.

I'll ask the dumb question then: why not just simplify this thought and vote mastina?

[AGar]

@Oka

Keely wants to pick at your read on mastina a bit. Everything you're saying mastina is doing here, he feels mastina did last game, so can you highlight with some links the differences you're seeing?

[AGar]

Bad at paraphrasing: specifically how mastina approached pushing at me is similar - I was not her strongest scumread in v1.0 either.

[AGar]

Lillith suggested compromising onto Ythan?

[AGar]

hint - i wasn't going to like a response unless it contained good reasons to TR agar that i've overlooked, or a shift to a SR on agar because 'oh yeah i read your case and it makes sense, sorry for doubting you Hop.'

"Everyone who disagrees with my read is scum."

Lillith suggested compromising onto Ythan?

Riddle me this: I went to war with Ythan on D2, and you sided by him. I got into a heated argument with Poka

over Ythan

and you used that to push me still. Now you are willing to compromise on Ythan?? How come? In other words; what has changed and/or what did Lillith point put that convinced you?

I... have no intention of voting Ythan?

I found it odd that his teammate suggested compromising onto a wagon that *literally doesn't exist*.

Keely wanted me to just quote your "society is devolving" post back at you, ftr.

That leaves Agar, Hopkirk, jjh and xtoxm.

VOTE: Bell

Brilliant.

[AGar]

you point that out yet i do not see your vote on titus!

Very observant!

I'm still hesitant because of the way the D1 wagon on Ythan shifted to Titus so suddenly. Feels off. Not my priority at this moment.

i feel like the main wagons rn have all been kind of MIA lately (except mastina) and i don't know how to feel about that

I'm exactly as active as I have been throughout the game.

I should probably be paying more attention here huh

I'm very confident on Mastina town and fairly confident on Titus town. I don't really think Bell is scum here

I'd probably be happier to vote Agar if I have to move off winter flakes (alt of Uncrowned) but that wagon is gone.

Breathtaking.

Quick, answer me this, who is scum on the Bell wagon? Answer: No one.

l e l

[AGar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

Really really dislike that last post.

[AGar]

Agar is scumposting. He avoids the thread but shows up at the last second to tie the wagons against his biggest detractor.

"avoids the thread" is a hell of a way to frame a fairly consistent posting habit.

[AGar]

Guess we're yeeting Oka today. K.

[AGar]

Oka do me a favor: please explicitly state you were told you were visited by a Neapolitan last night.

[AGar]

VOTE: OkaPoka

[AGar]

Yeah no nothing shady about the PR just piling on there. Yeet Hop tomorrow you fucking nards.

[AGar]

I'm done explaining shit to someone who isn't actually playing the game.

[AGar]

i will roll my eyes all the way into the sun if mastina claims she figured out there was a vanilla cop enabler in the game before today.

Can y'all just yeet me before that happens?

[AGar]

i'm not particularly planning to vote you, but i fully expect to be steamrolled

I mean there is zero situation where I can be left alive for any potential endgame situation, so we might as well just pull the ripcord now and then y'all can yeet Hop tomorrow or w/e.

[AGar]

Do you not remember me coming in and voting Titus instead of Bell to make it 6-6 instead of hammering Bell?

Because that definitely happened.

[AGar]

is there anyone here who isn't operating under the delusion mafia is a math problem or is it just me

I don't think it's a math problem but I mean if I wasn't me I'd be pushing hard for my yeet based off of that behavior so *shrug*

[AGar]

perhaps that should cause you to rethink your process for elims rather than give up

Monumental.

I never thought of that.

[AGar]

Iris (Byun Hyung Tae), former Korean Programer for BW, played Terran.

[AGar]

*shrug*

Could be scum. Ceph has made good points about WF. Still think it's Hop tho and that's just a safe as shit fakeclaim. Just consider that - even though I'm conceding I need to eat a yeet - if I was in this position as scum why don't I just concede overnight? If I'm last scum game is lost. But that's a ton of WIFOM. But Hop's leap to try and get that wagon done as fast as possible today should speak for itself. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Eat at Arby's.

[AGar]

I don't know if you've picked up on this yet but I don't really care who people think it is at this point. Yeet me and give me the sweet release of death and then yeet Hop I guess.

Eat at Arby's.

[AGar]

Eat at Arby's.

Also AGar has pretty much given up and has plainly done so since the Bell elimination in a way that looks particularly like scum. It was there yesterday with his play then and is stronger today.

Imagine spending over a decade playing this game and being this bad at reasoning.


Eat at Arby's.

[AGar]

Whatever. Yeet Hop tomorrow or, alternatively, just throw the game for town.

Eat at Arby's.

[AGar]

I was never targeted by any announcing role.

Eat at Arby's.

[AGar]

"This game feels solved" repeats town who has not, in fact, solved game.

Eat at Arby's.