Mini Normal 2196 - Game Over

[clidd]

It's always a hemorrhagic pleasure to replace in a such illustrious game.

I hope to keep the experience pleasant.

[clidd]

By the way, I hope you guys have noticed my predecessor's evidently town frustration.

I wouldn't mind getting some town points.

[clidd]

VOTE: HypoSoc

I'm vibing with this wagon ^

[clidd]

I noticed the interaction between Bug and Lotus but I didn't find it so suggestive to mention.

[clidd]

I'm vibing with this wagon ^

Vibe away, my dude. Don't let anyone harsh it.

Huuum.

Idk, it depends on you.

[clidd]

Flavor leaf?

[clidd]

[clidd]

No, you are not him. False alarm.

[clidd]

VOTE: RLotus

[clidd]

VOTE: bugspray

[clidd]

clidd whats up with that vote?

You reflect me as scum!you from our past game, in the sense of how you are floating in this early game.

I need to see more of how you're going to approach the slots to see if I change my mind or not.

[clidd]

I'm not worrying too much about FL rn, just let him play and do his thing.

He will be obvtown or obvscum eventually.

[clidd]

Entrapta is being replaced, the slot will first be offered to 2 users who wanted to replace into clidd's slot for 12 hours each. After that the slot will be offered publicly. Please take care to refer to other players as they wish to be referred.

[clidd]

Ok, no problem.

[clidd]

Well.. You seem like a nice person, Entrapta, and I appreciate that in the short time that we played together here.

Perhaps it is interesting for you to work a little more on your tolerance, as each player has its own peculiarity and it is important to respect the playstyle choices.

[clidd]

What do you make of my suspicious on you, bug?

[clidd]

clidd whats up with that vote?

You reflect me as scum!you from our past game, in the sense of how you are floating in this early game.

I need to see more of how you're going to approach the slots to see if I change my mind or not.

I said here, but in other words, you remind me of our past game (where you were scum). But it's just an impression, as I said.

[clidd]

This game> https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85556

[clidd]

I don't see the substitution as suggestive, but if April is correct that Entrapta's departure has already been replicated by her as scum, in a context similar to the current game, I will not oppose the elimination, although I wanted to see what the new substitute has to say or the specific game in which this behavior occurred.

[clidd]

No one has reflected me as super scummy so far.

At least not to the point of me having a strong belief that the slot is scum.

[clidd]

By PoE, I have this in mind:

{April Ludgate}
{geraintm} {MiniMegabyte} {AliceK}
{bugspray} {RLotus} {Ydrasse}
{Amélie} {Gretchen}
{DrippingGoofball} {HypoSoc}
{Da Dude}

Top is close to town and bottom is closer to the scum margin.

[clidd]

I don't think that the way Amélie was expressing herself about her impressions is necessarily malicious, but the reasons described don't make much sense to me. I believe that she is unconsciously compressing a specific interpretation of the facts to fit into a particular theory of hers, whether bc of confbias or some other mental process that I am unaware of (I don't read minds). Probably more town than not, but I still need to have more samples of her reasoning to understand the mentality that she is coming from in AI terms.

[clidd]

I'm not impressed by Dadude. I can see he using the same alignment-independent posting approach, but nothing reflected me as suggestively towny.

[clidd]

Goofball and Hypo are strange slots with vague postings that don't give me a good idea of ​​alignment.

Depending on what they post, both slots can go up or down. There is not much content from them to evaluate.

[clidd]

Gretchen seems to me like someone who tries to maintain a comic flow to stay in the character, but I didn't see anything suggestive in the sense of depth of thought that would allow me to go beyond the character to understand the player's alignment behind the slot. The only reason she is above the two I mentioned earlier is because of the assumption that (perhaps) the personality she created and is applying here would be more difficult to maintain due to the influence of the cognitive load she would probably have if she were scum. It is not a very good assumption depending on her competence as scum, but it is already something for now.

[clidd]

honestly, i think we just full send da dude, i meet my demise, and this game continues

Hum, not a good idea imo.

We still have a lot of time and we can use your presence in the game, considering that you are the primary target tonight if you are town.

[clidd]

I mean, It's the first time that I think that you're really town after that storm of 3 scumgames in your alt, so I don't want to waste it.

Unless the gamestate becomes infinitely apathetic and that is lowering morale, then yes, I can think of hammering or something.

[clidd]

By the way: UNVOTE: RLotus

I was voting bug, but ok.

[clidd]

Regarding Bug/Lotus, both were at first very similar to their recent scumgame, but I feel some differences now.

Bug is less charismatic and is paying less attention compared to scum!Bug, while Lotus is more shallow in his comments, something different from the semi-walls that scum!Lotus did when explaining his reads in that game.

This does not necessarily make them town, as it is not that difficult to switch play from one game to the other, but my mind tells me that these traits probably leverage the slots upward, unless I feel/see something that makes me change of idea.

[clidd]

Ydrasse reflects me as ''lost'', and this is unusual, considering that she can project on a organic level a flow of towny interactions as scum, just like she did in FL vs Hectic.

The apathy and the gradual loss of interest, as well as the eventual exit, within the context of she needing to play in side games and not having the time for the current game (plus boring gamestate), make me think that the slot is likely town. There is still a chance of scum!Ydrasse simply not being interested in the game, but I am convinced that I can reevaluate if that is the case depending on the successor.

[clidd]

Geraintm is a slot that gave me a lot of headaches in our past game, basically due to the fact that his reasoning as town was very strange and it often seemed to me that he was not being honest with some questions, but after some time of discussion, I noticed that town!he is more inquisitive when he wants to clarify something, while scum!he, according to the game I have in mind, is more evasive and did not insist on questions (to avoid unnecessary friction). His play, so far, has reminded me of town!he.

[clidd]

Mini has given me positive impressions, but I have not yet carefully checked his meta and his current position is more due to complacency on my part. He will fall or stay depending on the conclusion I have + what he posts.

AliceK asked Entrapta a very specific question regarding her interaction with Bugspray which I found very difficult in terms of projection if scum!Alice was the person who made the observation. Considering that she is a real newbie, at least for the fact that she occupied a newbie slot in a newbie game, I am viewing this unique attention to details as potentially towny. Can change too depending on what she posts.

[clidd]

And finally, April.

This is a sensitive/difficult slot to read, but the way he is currently floating is positive. There is obviously the same reuse of typical terms of scum!he and some attitudes that are also similar, but these are elements that are always present regardless of his alignment, so I am not considering as exclusive factors for me to define whether the slot is town or scum. Instead, I am considering play, which in his case has reflected me as transparent and most likely towny.

This read, like the others, is not fixed, so depending on how things happen my interpretation may change.

[clidd]

Ok, that's all.

I'll take a break now.

[clidd]

I'm playing differently and my tired expression is due to a lot of internal work, not visible.

But your comparative/behavioral interpretation + gif speculation reflects me as coming from a genuine perspective.

[clidd]

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}
{geraintm} {MiniMegabyte} {AliceK}
{RLotus} {Ydrasse}
{Amélie} {Gretchen}
{DrippingGoofball} {HypoSoc}
{Da Dude}

Bug goes up.

[clidd]

Well, they had no immediate reaction to my response, so I don't know what's going on in their heads right now, but the crazy formulation of suspicion about me on the previous page struck me as towny.

[clidd]

I mean, it would be very strange scum!bug attacking me like that because there are points in his post that suggest that he overestimates me as a player and this is a bizarre take coming from a scum mentality that supposedly would have to discredit/reduce my social image to make me become an miseliminable slot.

[clidd]

Sorry, I forgot to use they*

[clidd]

It's fine if you suspect me, but keep an open mind about the game. Assess individually who you think is town/scum without drawing pre-flip associations, or your reads will be affected by confbas.

[clidd]

Correction: Confbias.

[clidd]

Yes, confirmation bias.

[clidd]

Also I feel the need to point out that clidd has not objected to my statement that Benedict Cumberbatch is his fursona

[clidd]

Just to put it in context, the premise of Benedict being my persona allows the inference you made about the gif showing my mental state, which at that time would be tired, but this does not necessarily imply my alignment. I can be tired regardless of being town or scum.

The assumption of tiredness being connected to the cognitive load of being scum, however, is interesting, but lacks development. The behavioral comparison of your expectation of town!Clidd is something based on meta, so if you don’t believe my “I’m playing different” counterpoint and you’re interpreting my flexibility of reads as scummy, there’s not much to discuss beyond the fact that you need to keep evaluating me to check if your impression of scum!Clidd is incorrect or not.

[clidd]

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}
{geraintm} {RLotus}
{AliceK}
{Ydrasse} {MiniMegabyte}
{Amélie} {Gretchen}
{DrippingGoofball} {HypoSoc}
{Da Dude}

[clidd]

We still have time.

I don't intend to change the elimination, but I want to see more opinions.

[clidd]

Especially April, as he is a primary target for NK.

[clidd]

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}
{geraintm} {RLotus}
{AliceK}
{MiniMegabyte}
{Klick}
{Amélie} {Gretchen}
{HypoSoc}
{DrippingGoofball}
{Da Dude}

[clidd]

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}

{geraintm}

{MiniMegabyte}

↑

{RLotus}

↓

{Klick} {AliceK}

↓

{Amélie} {Gretchen}

{HypoSoc}

{DrippingGoofball}

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}

{geraintm}

{MiniMegabyte} {Klick}

↑

{Amélie}

↑

{RLotus} {AliceK} {Gretchen}

↓

{HypoSoc}

{DrippingGoofball}

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

70%

[clidd]

No, my mind doesn't work like that.

[clidd]

Town can protect scum too, not just scum.

[clidd]

@Klick

Being town doesn't mean that your reads are always going to be correct.

It's relatively easy for you to misinterpret something and end up townreading scum, as well as scumreading town.

[clidd]

In others words, my read on you is individual, not associative.

[clidd]

70%

Depending on what he posts, it can increase or decrease.

[clidd]

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}

{geraintm}

{MiniMegabyte} {Klick}

{Amélie}

{AliceK} {Gretchen}

{HypoSoc} {RLotus}

↓

{DrippingGoofball}

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

Update:

{bugspray}

↑

{April Ludgate}

{geraintm}

{MiniMegabyte} {Klick}

{Amélie}

{AliceK} {Gretchen}

{HypoSoc} {RLotus}

{DrippingGoofball}

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

Update:

{bugspray}

{geraintm} {MiniMegabyte} {Klick} {April Ludgate}

↓

{Amélie}

{Gretchen}

{RLotus} {AliceK}

↓

{DrippingGoofball} {HypoSoc}

↓

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

VOTE: HypoSoc

[clidd]

UNVOTE: HypoSoc

[clidd]

VOTE: Gretchen

[clidd]

{bugspray}

{geraintm} {MiniMegabyte} {Klick} {April Ludgate}

{Amélie}

{RLotus} {AliceK} {Gretchen}

↓

{DrippingGoofball} {HypoSoc}

{Da Dude}

[clidd]

I agree that complacency about an elimination and the absence of an alternative wagon can be indicative that we could be heading for a miselim, but that doesn't say much about your wagon being town or scum.

Just as town may have a tunnel view on your slot, scum can also contextualize reasons for suspecting the departure of Entrapta/Dadude's absence and have a sl/sr on the slot that justifies a vote.

Scum can keep the options open, as you mentioned, but I don't think that's very suggestive. I still expect a more individual assessment from you about other slots on this subject.

[clidd]

I mean, yeah, you shared your views on some players, but I don't feel like there was a opinion that highlighted you as coming from a town perspective/mentality.

[clidd]

Not saying you're scum bc of it, of course, but you're still in your scum-range.

[clidd]

DGB is probably lhf.

[clidd]

{bugspray}

{geraintm} {Klick} {April Ludgate}

{Amélie} {MiniMegabyte}

↓

{DrippingGoofball}

↑

{RLotus} {AliceK} {Gretchen}

{Dannflor} {HypoSoc}

↓

[clidd]

Remind me what lhf is

Low hanging fruit.

[clidd]

@Klick

I don't think there is a scum motivation in the way he is playing, despite appearing to be a scummy tunnel. Town acting scummy is plausible to me.

pedit: I wanted to see someone's reaction to that.

[clidd]

{bugspray}

{geraintm} {Klick} {April Ludgate}

{Amélie} {MiniMegabyte}

{DrippingGoofball} {RLotus}

↑

{AliceK} {Gretchen}

{Dannflor} {HypoSoc}

[clidd]

weird mental gymnastics to not want to eliminate your top scumread

Yes. What do you make of it?

[clidd]

So the vote was a reaction test or the unvote was a reaction test?

This second question was an unnecessary extension.

[clidd]

{bugspray}

{geraintm} {Klick} {April Ludgate}

{Amélie} {MiniMegabyte}

{DrippingGoofball}

{RLotus}

↓

{AliceK} {Gretchen}

{Dannflor} {HypoSoc}

[clidd]

VOTE: AliceK

[clidd]

it feels like he's literally just fucking with me

[clidd]

he has certainly appeared to have been noticeably weird for no obvious reason

And what do you conclude of the "acting weird" in ai terms?

[clidd]

My mind is trying to distinguish if scum!Dann managed to get in my head or if my impression of the slot was incorrect and he is town.

[clidd]

UNVOTE: AliceK

[clidd]

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

[clidd]

VOTE: Gretchen

[clidd]

Grechen, your frustration doesn't strike me as towny and I'm inclined to think that your claim is probably fake.

It's fine if you want to play your own way and have fun during the process, as that is the main purpose of the game, but that doesn’t mean that other people don’t have the right to suspect you, either because of you behavior or some interpersonal characteristic that you believe should be seen as nai.

I have the same impression that Dann commented. I can see when a player is suspecting me incorrectly and is town, but your way of dealing with our votes seemed too much like a scum ate and not an evaluative stance to know if we are town or scum pushing you.

[clidd]

And yeah, I'm drastically different here. I'm aware of that.

Dann interpreted me correctly and Klick's assessment would probably be correct if I wasn't deliberately getting out of my ''town'' way of playing.

pedit: I'm comfortable with the vote atm, unless she starts to townspew.

[clidd]

Probably a mod slip that Klick is town.

[clidd]

VOTE: HypoSoc

[clidd]

{Dann} {bugspray} {April Ludgate}

-

{RLotus} {geraintm}
{Featherless Bipedal}
{Solon} {Amélie}
{DrippingGoofball} {AliceK}
{Gretchen}
{HypoSoc}

[clidd]

He's not a slot that I feel is a lhf and the little attention he is receiving does not seem compatible with the town!Hypo scenario imo. I suppose he would be pushed more by the scum side if he were town here.

Comparatively, all the others have reasons to be above. He's the weakest slot atm.

[clidd]

Dann is practically reading me like a book. Normally I would be worried, but I remember town!Dann having good behavioral analysis in the two games I saw him playing, so it's not like he's abusing tmi to create reasons to have me as a townread.

[clidd]

Bugpray is Bugpray, nothing has changed.

Scum is afraid to push them and they are probably the nk target for tonight, instead of April, considering that they are getting to the point of utr.

Their reads are not particularly motivating, but their presence is one of the factors that is moving the game forward and I appreciate that.

[clidd]

I don't know the accuracy of my read on April, as I don't think he's a slot that I can distinguish 100% on the first day, but for the time being I didn't notice any ping that caught my attention and I don't think he's playing maliciously, as in the others scumgames of his that I have in memory.

It can be a purposeful switch to make me townread him in the scum!April scenario, but I don't have enough information to see that. With what I have rn, my impression is that the slot is town.

[clidd]

In relation to Lotus, I have a very clear image of his scumgame in my mind and rereading the game again, it gets very obvious the political way in which scum!Lotus plays.

Compared to the current game, I believe he is playing in a less political way and his vague participation is giving me the feeling of lack of direction, that is, lack of information.

It is possible that scum!Lotus is getting rid of the triggers that I noticed in his scumgame, but such switch is hard due to the fact that he has little experience as scum and is relatively new to the site, so the simplest conclusion is that he is more likely town than not.

[clidd]

Gera is acting the same as town!Gera our past game in the sense of confusing reads and bad logic.

I see no reason to think that he is scum here.

[clidd]

Actually, I imagine that scum is inside this pool:

{Featherless Bipedal}
{Solon} {Amélie}
{DrippingGoofball} {AliceK}
{Gretchen}
{HypoSoc}

[clidd]

Being optimistic, all scums should be there, but mafia is never an easy game. I don't expect a good accuracy on D1.

[clidd]

Hypo, who do think is scum?

[clidd]

Correction: who do you think is scum?

[clidd]

Your reaction to the wagon is not good and I don't see any scumhunting on your part rn.

I also don't understand how you can be an ''acceptable'' elimination.

Just as the fact that you have no suspect in mind.

[clidd]

Hypo seems a better wagon.

[clidd]

No idea who scum is.

[clidd]

I imagine that the setup has some traitor mechanics or something that makes scum come from an uninformed perspective. Or, if not, scum is basically playing a simple deepwolf game and successfully emulating a town mentality. In both scenarios scum is not being clear to the eye.

[clidd]

I need to reread the game carefully to reshape my reads.

[clidd]

Hum.

[clidd]

So the set

{DGB, Grechen, Dann, Solon}

claims to be pr.

If I'm not forgetting someone, of course.

[clidd]

[clidd]

You got a report about his alignment?

[clidd]

By the way, Gretchen, which point of my behavior reflected you as towny/why? (expand impression)

[clidd]

I liked the explanation, although the "keeping track of all your reads" point is something that scum tends to do more than town (and I think it's unusual for you to interpret it as towny).

But the rest of the description strikes me as transparent, considering that you were objective and cited a specific example.

[clidd]

I imagine that your interpretation of my

"I'm doing something scummy and Bugspray recognizing this is +town for him"

is probably an attempt to assess whether that kind of thinking would make more sense to come from a town or scum mentality. The empathetic nutrition of my reasoning and classification as coming from town is difficult to produce if you are starting from a perspective that already knows my alignment, which makes me think that your reasoning is genuine.

You can still be scum if there are some mechanics that make you not know who your partners are and, consequently, come from an uninformed/genuine pov that seeks information, but this is a scenario that should be more evident in the sense of veracity when a scumflip occurs. By occam's razor you're more likely town than not.

[clidd]

Dann, what do you think of DGB's AtE?

Does it changes something in your mechanical guilt?

You are a social player and I think your reads are more important to you than mechanics.



The angle in relation to the non-elimination between claims is interesting, Grechen, but it is very likely that there is one camouflaged scum among tprs and the pool is smaller for evaluation compared to scumhunting outside the claims. If we can distinguish scum among the quartet, we are more likely to hit scum imo.

[clidd]

Amélie is definitely more aggressive in this game compared to her scumgame in our past experience.

This can be suggestive if scum!Amélie chooses not to be so aggressive to avoid retaliation, especially with two players who have seen her scumgame (April/me), but it is difficult to say for sure without a behavioral analysis between town!Amélie and scum!Amélie.

For those interested, these are the only meta examples that I have about her:

Towngame>

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Scumgame>

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[clidd]

Logically speaking, yeah, there is a cognitive dissonance in her reasoning in relation to the omgus.

[clidd]

But I'm not convinced that it's necessarily coming from scum. Town can also be dissonant sometimes.

I mean, she can be scum, but i am not seeing her scum motivation in alluding to a primary sr but voting for a secondary sr. Scum!Amélie would at least have a basic notion that her vote would need to be in line with the reads/impressions she verbalized.

pedit: Hello.

[clidd]

Amélie, I don't think I'm following your scumread on Grechen. It's relatively easy for town!Grechen to consider that AtE towny as well as antagonize your suspicion about she.

[clidd]

Alright, I'll take a break. Hope to see more people joining the discussion.

[clidd]

1215/1216 is directed to Gretchen.

[clidd]

I'm open for a wagon on DGB or Amélie, depending on what they both post in the next 24 hours.

[clidd]

My read on Gera has significantly improved.

My townread on Bugspray, however, has weakened, but I still believe that the slot could be town.

[clidd]

If the assumption that there is a scum between the claims is correct, it is likely that DGB is the guy we'e looking for by PoE. Grechen, Dunn and Solon are more towny.

[clidd]

"Guy" in the figurative sense. I'm aware that your pronunciation is "it", DGB.

[clidd]

Actually, "person" fits better.

[clidd]

@Gera

I don't intend to discuss your methodology considering that I think you are town, but to put it in context, Hypo was scummy and this is something that was probably evident for both town and scum, that is, the wagon could have been formed mostly, entirely or partially by town. You can choose to focus on that pool, but the townflip does not necessarily imply that there should be scum on that d1 wagon.

[clidd]

VFP is towny and my townread on Dann is also weakening, but at a slower rate compared to my tr on Bugspray.

[clidd]

Alice's vote was terrible, but not scummy, probably bad town. I need to remember to take a look at meta to see if town!Alice also plays/has already played like this.

[clidd]

That's all.

Gamestate demands for Dgb/Amélie to post.

[clidd]

Ok, so find my partners.

[clidd]

I am still waiting for the participation of the two individuals I mentioned

[clidd]

Meh, I'm going back to the

''I don't know who scum is''

period.

[clidd]

I don't think it makes sense for Amélie to have me as a town if she is scum, at the same time that the rapid change of Dgb on me was illogical if he seeks consistency as scum.

I'm also trying to assess whether Bug is still in confbias or if they appropriated from the fact that I was townreading them to have an excuse to go deeper into the tunnel and not have to scumhunt.

[clidd]

Considering what I witnessed about scum!Amélie, I believe she is different here (positively).

It's the same feeling I had about Lotus before, so it probably has some credibility.

[clidd]

Actually, I would not rule out bad scum play on the part of a possible scum!DGB.

I don't think the frustration it showed a few pages ago would have lasted so far if the feeling was genuine.

[clidd]

damn clidd really is just scum

Although this post reflected me as a towny by the timing in which it occurred.

The repetition of their scumread on me, as scum!Bug, would probably make more sense if they tried to contextualize a sequence of reasons to strengthen the push.

The way it is being conducted, however, is poor and off agenda, which makes me think that it is more easily explained if it's coming from a town with confbias than scum repeating the same thing without adding reasons.

[clidd]

1306 is a continuation of the line I wrote about bugspray on 1303, by the way.

[clidd]

Town: Clidd
Null: Geraintm, RLotus, Dannflor, Solon, VFP, Bugspray
Scum: AliceK, DrippingGoofball, Gretchen

I can't help but feel that you go for convenient reads.

It makes sense to me that she has so many nulls if she's town.

But the scumread on Grechen I still don't understand. I think that's the only inconsistent point for my town!Amélie theory.

[clidd]

Alright, let's take a look here:

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

Dgb, I would like to take a look at your reads.

[clidd]

A summary already helps.

[clidd]

Actually, I would not rule out bad scum play on the part of a possible scum!DGB.

I don't think the frustration it showed a few pages ago would have lasted so far if the feeling was genuine.

Another one of those "DGB would have done this, DGB would have done that..."

I can't take it anymore.

Please, stop.

Just say what you think about the game.

[clidd]

Vfp, which % would you put on scum!Amélie?

[clidd]

Well, I'm like 60~70% on she being town but idk.

I'm probably biased.

[clidd]

[clidd]

Alice gives me similar sensations to Hypo

It's probably a slot that scum doesn't want to touch yet.

[clidd]

Yeah, I'm sold on Amélie being very likely town for now. I liked her 1328.

[clidd]

Alice gives me similar sensations to Hypo

It's probably a slot that scum doesn't want to touch yet.

Yeah, I get a bit of a town feeling on her too. Mainly because I don't think she would be this dense about scumreading me as scum and be a little more self conscious on her positioning.

The problem is I am collecting too many towns outside of the PRs. Maybe there really are two scum in the PRs.

DGB/gretchen/geraint? Idk

That's exactly what I thought too. It makes no sense for her to position herself in this way in the current scenario as scum.

I think that scum!Alice would be more motivated to townread you and be voting for someone like Gera/Amélie/Bugspray today.

I don't think there are 2 scums on the PRs, considering that it would be too risky for the scumteam to claim simultaneously, but I agree that many slots are reflecting as town in one way or another. There is probably two deepwolfs that has not yet been located outside the claims.

My solve rn is something like 1 scum inside claims and 2 scums outside.

[clidd]

I mean, it's foolish for scum to already have two claims. They would risk coming into conflict if there was a tpr that had a role that is not compatible with the forged claim.

I don't understand much about setup/mechanics (I'm a social player) to expand this thinking, but basically it's common sense to avoid claiming without seeing other claims first if you're scum.

[clidd]

@Vfp

I cause this effect on people, unfortunately.

[clidd]

One thought that came to my mind, btw, is the fact that Solon had an approximate period of 6 days of inactivity and received no prod.

I suppose that N_M could have just forgotten, but an interesting theory was if Solon was posting on some PT but not in the main chat and N_M was under the illusion that Solon was active and not needing a prod.

[clidd]

@Vfp

I cause this effect on people, unfortunately.

I'm just trying to understand the motive to your posts.
I agree with a lot of it but I can't see what you and others see with amelie, even if not scum.

This just leads me to believe
A) amelie is scum and the scum buddies and pushing hard to save.
B) I'm wrong on amelie

I don't see scum Clidd, DGB or anyone else defending town amelie, so I ruled that out.

I think you're just wrong on Amélie, but there is still a chance that we are wrong.

If you think that Amélie is scum, it's good for the game that you continue to persist in the read. If she's scum, we should be able to see eventually, just as you should be able to see if she's town.

[clidd]

Assuming that you're town and need to evaluate her, of course.

Something that I believe to be true, since I liked your questioning instance and see as towny.

[clidd]

One slot that I would also want help rn is DGB.

I did not understand how the demoralized/frustrated posture is still effectively occurring.

I've had episodes of frustration in the past, but after 24-48 hours I usually felt better and was able to get back into the game.

In its case, however, a conduct self-assessment is not taking place. Its consistently living in the same bubble as

"I'm bad, I don't care if I'm eliminated, I deserve it."

[clidd]

The only way this frustration could persist for so long, in the town!DGB scenario, would be if it were a recurrent accumulation of negative past experiences.

It could be the case, but there is also the possibility that the feeling is real, but it occurs independently of alignment. Just like town!DGB could feel downgraded by a succession of poor games, scum!DGB could also sympathize with the frustration of not being able to go as far as scum and constantly be a disadvantage to the scumteam.

[clidd]

From what I remember, Dann indirectly suggested that he had followed DGB to the player who was killed (although he later stated that he did not, as he is not a tracker), and DGB's reaction was to immediately claim that it had investigated the player dead to justify any possible tracking from DGB to the NK.

The point is that scum!DGB could have panicked for thinking that Dann had a guilty and invented the claim, but the timing in which it occurred was very early and without much thought on the possibility that Dann could be bluffing or not.

The question would be: Town!DGB would really be frustrated by the ''bad luck'' of investigating the NK for being suspicious of him and because of this action being a potential suspect as a tpr?

[clidd]

Add this to a long list of games where I fucked up a PR.

I'm

Night 1

Psychologist

and I investigated the NK'd player.

Dannflor is scum PR, put two and two together, bye, see you all in the dead thread.

VOTE: DGB

^

[clidd]

Spoiler:

VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb
VOTE: dgb

why is it town?

Idk what they are, but I'm asking what gives you confidence the DGB is scum?

I’ll explain eventually but I want more people in this game to put down votes first

nah jk kill dgb VOTE: DGB

I shouldn't have to reveal why I'm voting it at this point

@Dann I don't really care for you going into detail on roles or claims other than is this 100% accurate scum caught or no?

I'd say very rarely is anything 100%, even cop guilties run into the possibility of millers.

However, I'd say this is greater than 90% and DGB's reaction does not decrease that at all.

the thing is... I didn't track DGB

so it's weird it assumes I did

^

[clidd]

One thought that came to my mind, btw, is the fact that Solon had an approximate period of 6 days of inactivity and received no prod.

I suppose that N_M could have just forgotten, but an interesting theory was if Solon was posting on some PT but not in the main chat and N_M was under the illusion that Solon was active and not needing a prod.

Interesting concept.
Maybe messaged NM directly.

Pretty sure it would be a grey area on a rule break if true so personally I wouldn't want to push this.

Yeah, I just wanted to share, but I don't think it's debatable for being an angle shooting thing.

[clidd]

I said PT, but I didn't necessarily mention a scum PT. There are also private topics that any player can ask for, regardless of alignment.

But you unconsciously assumed that I was referring to the scum PT, which probably means that you don't have access to a PT if you are town.

So if the theory is correct, you're probably scum. Unless there is some other explanation that you are going to deliver now.

[clidd]

Alright, does anyone have any thoughts on DGB?

We have 2 days left.

[clidd]

DGB, who is scum in your view?

[clidd]

It's fine then. Thanks, N_M.

[clidd]

So you are unable to identify scum and think that you are probably townreading them.

Fair, but I would prefer that you point to at least one player that you suspect, regardless of the reason.

The more you share what you think, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, the easier it will be to say whether you are town or scum.

[clidd]

the easier it will be to say whether you are town or scum.

The townier I sound, the more people suspect me for sounding too townie.

I don't get it.

[clidd]

So.. Kind of waiting to see what the others (who didn't talk yet) think about dgb.

[clidd]

So.. Kind of waiting to see what the others (who didn't talk yet) think about dgb.

It shouldn't be complicated, if I were scum I'd vote you, I'd have 2 votes and you'd have 4.

But the way things are lately it'll probably be viewed as a galaxy brain scum plot.

Ok, just share your reads. It's very simple.

I don't care if you're voting me or not.

[clidd]

One thought that came to my mind, btw, is the fact that Solon had an approximate period of 6 days of inactivity and received no prod.

I suppose that N_M could have just forgotten, but an interesting theory was if Solon was posting on some PT but not in the main chat and N_M was under the illusion that Solon was active and not needing a prod.

This is disgusting

VOTE: Clidd

@mod

can you confirm why I wasn’t prodded?

Alright, did you learn something in the meantime or not?

[clidd]

It's E-1.

[clidd]

The only reason I didn't find his play towny is because I was scammed before by scum with the cheap talk of

"I'm bad, just vote me, look I'm selfvoting, I don't want to share any reads bc my reads are bad and won't help"

and etc.

[clidd]

Which mechanical reason?

[clidd]

Meh.

[clidd]

It's actually your reaction to Dann having a possible guilty on you.

[clidd]

Ok, just unvote yourself. Deadline is frozen, I want to take a look at what the person on Bug's slot will say about the game.

[clidd]

Or vote for me if you believe I'm scum pushing you instead of town trying to interpret your poor AtE as AI.

[clidd]

@Vfp

I need you again. What's your pov on the gamestate?

[clidd]

Spoiler:

She strikes me as rigid scum

Her reads and views aren’t adapting, she still wants to push my elim because..????

Maybe that’s why I wasn’t NK’d, because she’d have to actually alter her stance

VOTE: Alice

I liked my Alice vote but no-one seems interested in her elim for some reason?

We are nearing deadline and I have quite a fever and don’t feel like reading up right now. I’m just going to sheep the only player I know is Town for the sake of a wagon

VOTE: DGB

One thought that came to my mind, btw, is the fact that Solon had an approximate period of 6 days of inactivity and received no prod.

I suppose that N_M could have just forgotten, but an interesting theory was if Solon was posting on some PT but not in the main chat and N_M was under the illusion that Solon was active and not needing a prod.

This is disgusting

VOTE: Clidd

@mod

can you confirm why I wasn’t prodded?

@Solon

By the way, what happened in this line of thinking?

You did not interact with Alice once and she did not react to your suspicion. Suddenly you switch to a sheep and then to me after I announce a good theory about scum!you.

[clidd]

If you are town it will never be the right move to eliminate your slot from your perspective.

It's ok if you don't want to discuss the issue of being followed to the NK anymore, but it's part of your job to share as many things as possible from what you're thinking, regardless of having bad logic or being inaccurate reads. It shouldn't be difficult to be transparent if you are coming from a town mentality.

[clidd]

Thank you, Vfp. Your pov helped me a lot.

I'm starting to think that this is not going to flip scum, although the player's conduct is being negatively pro-scum/anti-town.

[clidd]

I was waiting to see how it would react, but honestly, I feel that the only argument I have is its reaction + claim, but not necessarily that it is trying to take advantage of something or advance a scum agenda. I believe that its AtE, unlike what I mentioned earlier, is more likely to be real-town than real-scum.

I have no intention of advocating a political elimination, personally speaking.

[clidd]

I don't want to discourage anyone who genuinely thinks that the slot is scum, but for those who are voting due to the reasons I mentioned (anti-town conduct/withdrawal/AtE/claim&reaction), it would be good to take a step back, at least for now.

I'll do a reread in the meantime, considering that we're waiting for bug's replacement.

UNVOTE: DrippingGoofball

[clidd]

Hum..

Haven't finished the reread, but: VOTE: Amélie

For me she was very likely town based on aggressiveness and the expression of thought, but after rereading (with more attention) her scumgame:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I noticed that it is not out of her scumrange, which is curious, because I played in that game, but I thought she was different here.

[clidd]

I'm not sure if that is the hammer but quickly before I go to work, last words are that I think Dripping is probably town at this point. This is too suicidal. If that wasn't the hammer, we need to think a bit before doing anything. They are being very suicidal and I just think at this point, it comes from town.

If DrippingGoofball is scum and that was the hammer, I'm happy to call Dannflor scum for a hammer out of nowhere. Solon's vote is horrible but that was minimegabyte and she was a solid townread of mine. I don't like VFB but I could see them being scum and that's it. Back to the cop on me request please.

And this is just, ugh.

[clidd]

VOTE: Lotus

Stop voting town.

[clidd]

Its been three years so lets do this...

Everyone needs to in their next post give a brief summary of the game so far and an explanation of their current vote. I dont want essays but enough for me to get a better idea of what happened in real time than reading 60 pages in a night which im doing now. Think one paragraph for each.

Unvote

I think you probably have already taken a sample of the game.

Regarding my vote, it is basically a reevaluation based on the Vfp inerpretattions, which helped me deal with the bias in being reciprocating her townread in me, and the comparison of her scumgame with the current game, where I noticed that she is not out of her scumrange.

pedit: Are you talking with me?

[clidd]

Still catching up but first entirely confusing thing that needs clarification:

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}
{geraintm} {RLotus}
{AliceK}
{MiniMegabyte}
{Klick}
{Amélie} {Gretchen}
{HypoSoc}
{DrippingGoofball}
{Da Dude}

Update:

{April Ludgate} {bugspray}

{geraintm}

{MiniMegabyte}

↑

{RLotus}

↓

{Klick} {AliceK}

↓

{Amélie} {Gretchen}

{HypoSoc}

{DrippingGoofball}

{Da Dude}

Alice and Lotus never posted between these two lists. What happened?

I reevaluated the slots and noticed that they were higher than they should have been.

[clidd]

Also I want a few more detailed thoughts on each other from the following pairings which I am really interested in at around page 30

Geranitum-Clidd (Alice weigh in with thoughts on both)
Dann-VFP

Gera is probably town, he hasn't changed much since our last game together. I remember questioning his playstyle approach, but it was not a very productive discussion (he was town). His scumread on me here makes sense for town!Gera to think imo, just like town!Bug (your predecessor). Alice is a slot that I don’t have an expressive read in addition to the impression that the fact that she isn't being touched/discussed is similar to Hypo’s situation on D1 (until the moment I drew attention to the slot and a herd effect occurred, causing him to be miseliminated), which makes me think that she has the potential to be a lhf (low hanging fruit that scum don't want to push), although I have not evaluated whether her behavior fits into a scum agenda (probably not).

pedit: DGB is likely town by AtE/bad town play and Dann is town because I liked his posts when he replaced in, although he hasn’t been so towny recently.

[clidd]

My context with Gera (discussion) here:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12588391

Here:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12592302

And here:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12593928

We spent a long time in that game arguing, because I found his approach strange, but I did not immediately conclude that it was necessarily scummy.

Here I'm interpreting his play in the same way, considering that it seems similar to me.

[clidd]

Spoiler:

I mean I understand it's not the most convincing coming from the slot who is being wagoned and who hasn't even read everything yet

but the fact that there's no even like... side discussions going on, or even people asking me questions or telling me to look out for certain things as I catch up just makes it feel like everyone is complacent with the game state

and that's not the best sign

quick impressions up through page 13

I think the interactions with entrapta are probably town indicative for april? The progression from maybe scum to town to back to scum after the replace out feels very natural. And I did get the sense April was genuinely trying to sort the slot. They reacted surprisingly mellow towards the early vote on them which I think is town indicative as well? Not a super strong read here as I don't think the slot has done much else alignment indicative for them. The IC claim is obviously fake but that's par for the course for april

HypSoc's #290 I thought was scummy at first but after dwelling on it for a bit I think I've come around to the opposite opinion. It felt like the type of post scum makes to get analysis out there that really isn't all that useful in the end, especially because taking April's IC claim seriously is dubious at best. But I don't expect HypSoc to know that necessarily and spending *so* much time analyzing it leans towards transparent town that latched onto something rather than scum trying to appear useful. I have to say I didn't like their "your slot has been the most suspected so far" post on my replacing in though because it like... absolves all responsibility off of them and like prods me in a super passive way. HypSoc, I'm interested in how you've been reading my slot/my predecessors and what you think of the people wagoning me. From your ISO it's hard to tell what stance you have exactly on me.

btw I'm willing to bet most people on my wagon are town, I might prove myself wrong with that as I gather more reads, but in situations where a townie is widely scum read and run up with little to no resistance, it's not because scum are actively campaigning for the elimination, but because town are and scum don't want to get in the way. I'd look for scum more in the slots that are either soft defending me or that are open to my wagon but voting/pushing elsewhere, with maybe like 1 scum on my wagon at its peak. I've just been looking at the VCs and I see scummy slots like Mini vote parked on bugspray while I'm being run up and I don't think that's a coincidence. The lack of counter wagon also probably points towards scum just lying low and not really doing anything. After all, with the game state as it appears to be idk why they'd have to do anything. and leading the charge of a town wagon D1 and taking the cred damage for doing so is really only something I could see a scum player with the caliber of April doing (not that I think April is scum here)

I don't think clidd is noticeably trying to drive any agenda by obviously not cohering exactly to his reads list

I mean he's obviously trying to fish for reactions or do *something* that he thinks will help solve the game

this feels like a case of getting side tracked by a townie doing outrageous things (my favorite nsg quote)

clidd, why are you townreading mini?

town reading HypoSoc is probably premature, I need a lot more from them

don't particularly like April not being around, nor their self vote in #520. It doesn't feel borne out of emotion nor out of driving a point/read home like I'd expect from town!April but meh

but can be explained by April simply being disengaged from this game

bugspray has the type of tone that I just have a really hard time not reading as towny

posts like #566 feels like the type of very simple/flippant justification that town is more likely to throw out there on a whim than scum. granted I don't know bugspray at all as a player but I'm pocketed

something like

[bugspray, clidd]
[alice, dgb, Klick]
[gretchen, rlotus]
[amelie]
[mini, geraintm]

this is a very loose approximation of where I'm at right now. April excluded until I get a chance to properly interact with her. I'm sort of in a weird position where I think a lot of the people currently pushing my slot are town and scum lie somewhere in the people defending me. However, I'm thinking the slots that have been hard defending more lean more towards town [rlotus, klick] for example while scum is *most likely* to lie in slots that are either soft defending me or not taking a strong stance either way, for example [mini, geraintm]

VOTE: geraintm

Why is that unlikely?
One is Flavorleaf, extremely active and everyone thinks he is likely town for some unknown reason and the other two are people that barely talk.

individually, sure

but mafia are usually a little more self aware and don't all like to be clumped up in the same direction. at least more experienced teams (and particularly any team April would be a part of) would like work to not associate with each other so blatantly by all pushing one wagon that isn't even necessarily needed.

@ Dann - i think i said earlier that i thought you had done the best you could replacing into the game considering the posistion you were in, but man...3 votes on one page on 3 different people looks bad. why must you do things like that?

you vote Rlotus for no obvious reason.
half an hour later you provide a reads list, rlotus is high in it and you vote someone else
half an hour later you vote for someone else who you had in your 2nd towniest tier?

I have felt that I have a nebulous grasp on this game given I replaced in like 48 hours ago. I'm also not as careful with my vote as most people. I voted Alice because my most confident town read in Bugspray was voting there and wanted to start a wagon. and I didn't really have a better place to put it at the time.

Rlotus I originally felt fell into the camp of "people soft defending me and could be scum" but then I reread and don't feel bad about his posting

I dunno I'm generally a pretty self aware poster and if I wanted to fake consistency with my reads / votes I certainly could

it's not like voting rlotus or alice was some desperate gamble to keep me alive. I'm really just trying to generate information because from my pov there's so many inactive posters or people who are just determined to give me nothing and that makes it really hard to figure this game out

VOTE: minimegabyte

That's interesting vote. Can you elaborate why you think mmb is Mafia?

I kinda already have if you've read my posts but I'll be more specific.

Half of his ISO isn't content, it's promising to provide content or remarking on things that really have no bearing on anyone's alignment in this game. They post vaguely about how they "don't like how quickly that wagon formed on Da Dude" with no further explanation. Why? What makes quick wagons bad? What makes Da Dude town? You would think a townie who thinks something like this would spend more energy defending the slot or elaborating on why the quickness of the wagon means bad. Later, they even say "go ahead and eliminate Da Dude I just won't be on the wagon." It kinda reads like blatant "I know the person being wagoned is town so I don't wanna be on it but also I don't care if it goes through." Which is a scum agenda.

Yeah the IC claim is probably fake but I thought I'd put it out there anyway since some people have taken it seriously. It's not alignment indicative for April to make fake claims like that.

DGB could be scum. They haven't been particularly gungho about pushing anything, besides a couple weak posts here and there going after me.

HypoSoc, I go back and forth on, I *think* I've settled on their focus of the IC claim being town indicative? I also scum read their posting style but realize it might be just that, a posting style. meh, I wish I had something more solid here

seriously, I think his consistently transparent posting this game wrt his reads is towny

at the same time he seems to be thinking things through and I can track some sort of thorough line of thought process through his posts

his votes feel a lot more to me like "let's see what happens here" then "ooh I can vote this inconspicuously"

Posts that I liked from Dann/makes me think that he's coming from a town mentality/is town ^

[clidd]

I do think that there is scum among PRs, but my reads don't point to where.

If I had to guess, I would say that Solon enters as a candidate by PoE.

I don't think Dann saying that a slot is town and then voting for the same slot is a scum indicator, but you probably have something else on mind about that.

[clidd]

Well, I'm weak in mechanical knowledge, so I'm probably not going to be useful to you in that regard.

But I'm interested to hear if you have any ideas by setup spec.

[clidd]

Literally the only reason I am not already pushing for Dann to die though is the "setup incompetence" tell he dropped that has me a bit worried. Works a whole lot better in Open games, but could probably be applied here. He essentially in major trouble if he is scum either way though, I think any correct lynch ends any hope he has of surviving to endgame if scum.

Too many investigative roles. One of them has to be scum. Gunsmith has me on edge too, as that tends to mean there is a counter to it one side or another. This can mean a vig (false positive) or a scum role that tests negative (Godfather or maybe if flavor heavy ninja). Otherwise why not make it a straight up cop? Need to sober up and really start trying to see what fits, but scum would need to be stacked in order for this to be fair given what I know so far. Again its old meta, but heavy swing (lots of PRs) is typically frowned upon. I think we are at absolutely zero chance all claimed roles are town. Its just about seeing if scum screwup and kill one that makes it obvious who is lying. If there is a vig, I still say they claim because its probably a forced win.

Good analysis.

The problem I have is to be able to locate who is scum among the claims, because nobody is acting in an obviously scummy way, but I agree with you that it may be a matter of time before the pool of investigators shrinks and reports who is lying. I haven't been considering the vig hypothesis so far, but I also agree that a claim, if any, would be good.

[clidd]

Lets just do this for now though and say if you think DGB is town (or want to push DGB/Dann to tomorrow) join in

Vote Ame

Yeah, Amélie is a good counter-wagon.

If Amélie is scum, by the way, that makes Vfp likely to be town, considering that he has been pushing her for a decent time.

[clidd]

I'm not sure if that is the hammer but quickly before I go to work, last words are that I think Dripping is probably town at this point. This is too suicidal. If that wasn't the hammer, we need to think a bit before doing anything. They are being very suicidal and I just think at this point, it comes from town.

If DrippingGoofball is scum and that was the hammer, I'm happy to call Dannflor scum for a hammer out of nowhere. Solon's vote is horrible but that was minimegabyte and she was a solid townread of mine. I don't like VFB but I could see them being scum and that's it. Back to the cop on me request please.

And this is just, ugh.

Which part is just ugh?

The reaction of "omg, dgb is town, we need to be careful about what we're going to do", as well as she thinks that a hammer had occurred and that make Dann scum for "??" reasons seemed to me very false, in the sense that I don't think these thoughts are of a healthy-town reasoning. Mini being a solid townread by "??" reasons and her not interpreting Vfb as town (especially considering that Vfb has acted in good faith regarding the suspicion about her) are also things that reflect me as posed, that is, not genuine for town!Amélie think.

[clidd]

Alice is a decent wagon too.

[clidd]

I mean, she's a lhf in my view, but I really have no argument beyond that(and the "she looks like Hypo" thing) to sustain a tr on the slot. I'm just not voting her rn after seeing your points (which are good) to keep some momentum on Amélie's wagon, in case someone sympathizes with my read there.

[clidd]

"sustaining a town read" is just a way of saying, but yes, I imagined that the slot could be vaguely town, as she's not even trying if she's scum.

[clidd]

I just don't want a repeat of what happened with Hypo on D1, if you get what I mean, although I understand and agree that it is not logical to make room for a slot that is doing nothing.

[clidd]

What you described of "not being interested in finding scum" is a frequent scumtell of newbie!scum and considering that Alice is a newbie, I believe it is compatible with the scum!Alice theory of being concerned only with how she is visualized but not being able to emulate an investigative town reasoning process.

But, again, although it is logically plausible, it does not mean that it is necessarily the case. Alice could also be town acting apathetic and being interpreted as scum.

I'm not against the pressure on her, it is necessary, as you mentioned, but I'm not so comfortable to join the wagon yet.

[clidd]

Regardless, the wagon's purpose is still decent, as is the potential for you to be right.

[clidd]

I would appreciate, however, an alternative wagon on Amélie, as I feel that she probably has a more expressive scumrange than Alice and by the most recent reevaluation, has similarity in the catchup format of that scumgame of hers that I mentioned with the current game.

[clidd]

For example,

here:

Spoiler:

A couple posts caught my attention in RVS which is a couple more than normal so I decided I'd include a section for RVS.

14 days gives us plenty of time I don’t think I’ve ever played a game where the first day has been 14 days long

I don't see why you choose to mention this. I did not notice this personally but I don't think it's anything too worthy of noting.

14 days gives us plenty of time I don’t think I’ve ever played a game where the first day has been 14 days long

That's a lot of time indeed. Let's hope we will manage to eliminate Mafia.
VOTE: bugspray

Out of all the votes on bugspray, this is my least favorite because it feels overly self conscious.

heeeeey lmao VOTE: AliceK. why do you think mini pointed out the deadline being long Alice?

I like this vote.

what are your thoughts on 15

I saw this post caught people's attention but it's actually one of the most towny things I've seen bugspray do so I think bugspray is probably town.

To be clear that replace was 100% nai and had nothing to do with this game, pretty sure

Heeyyy clidd !

I don't understand why you chose to say this. I'd ask what you are referencing but if it is against game rules, don't answer.

By the way, I hope you guys have noticed my predecessor's evidently town frustration.

I wouldn't mind getting some town points.

I think clidd is scummier then everyone else that I previously had problems with. This doesn't feel like something he would say.

mini you're so towny lmao. can you get a better pfp bc your current one is pretty maf which doesn't fit. it sounds like clidd repped in thinking art was town so uh, i'm gonna sheep his uninformed read before he repped in and figure he's town. easy.

I take back my townread on this slot for the vote. This conclusion is very strange. Artemia had three posts and I can't even remember what she said in either of the three. Clidd/Gretchen makes a lot of sense given that.

loves your eyes. so easy to lose myself in them...

Posts like this make me think Gretchen is even more scummy

Amelie's gonna come in here like "wtf is this shit that I signed up for"

Who are you? I am not happy with the amount of useless posts I see in this game.

Town: bugspray
Null: Entrapta, Minimegabyte
Scum: Clidd, Gretchen, AliceK

Scumgame:

Spoiler:

Vote count 1.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Not_Mafia [2]:

Not_Mafia, Raya36

RedFlavor [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [6]:

clidd, Horsewoman, Ahsoka, volxen, RedFlavor, Radja

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!

WAIT THERES 3 MAFIA???

#townslip gang

Hol up so mafia cant kill?

This felt really fake and I am concerned with other people's reactions to it because none of them looked even slightly surprised.

raya if u pocket me rn i promise not to push u today

Consider yourself pocketed

This interaction also feels fake. I'm considering scum theatre as a possibility here.

Ok I bleieve your townslip

I hate this but it does feel more like a confused townie than scum theatre.

who you choose to be friends with says a lot abt u.

motivation for this game coincidentally just dropped 90%.

lowkey can i just policy ur slot lmfao

I'm not sure entirely what this is about but I find this particularly rude.

Maybe other people just read the set-ups they're playing

Interesting. I agree with Not Mafia here. In my last game with him, I couldn't remember a single thing he said that I agreed with.

Hullo! Hope you're all having a great christmas.

It turns out that DKkoba's theory was wrong and redflavor's opened came from town. I liked the theory, I think it's towny that dk thought this long and hard about it, and part of me was just curious enough to know so I decided to replace in when the chance appeared.

This feels show-y. I took a brief glance at the game before I replaced in and was also curious what alignment Radja was but I wasn't planning to say it. This can go in my null for now.

I had a hard scumread on DK in our first game together, but after a while I learned that he plays

like that

in both alignments. Nothing he said in this game, so far, is ai in my opinion.

Please pay attention to pronouns.
What do you mean by "they play like that in both alignments"?
Specifically, what is "that"

Many of Gimli's reads in relation to DK seem like things that I could manufacture as scum to push someone, but I still believe that there is a scenario where he is not used to DK and, by default, interpreted his entire line of action as too weird to be town. I'm waiting to see which way my impression on him will go.

I agree with Gimli on Dkkoba.

last post of the day is a retraction of that ahsoka townlean after much consideration.

in fact I think her entrances in the thread are very bad with the flow of everything and point to scum.

will develop on this read tomorrow.

VOTE: ahsoka

I dislike the timing of this. It is right after clidd says Ashoka isn't obvtowning.

Reads look like this right now:

Town: Redflavor, Not Mafia
Null: Clidd, Gimli
Scum: Dkkoba, Raya36

Gimli and Ashoka's avatars are very similar and I apologize in advance if I start mixing them up.

DK is the type of person who is easily misunderstood if you don't like their post flow, and is a very sensitive slot in terms of what can be considered AI or not. I would say that none of their posts so far have given me the impression of "this is town!DK" or "this is scum!DK", which is why I am warning you (assuming you are town, of course ) to keep an open mind towards them.

What is ai for them then?

gimli basically is approaching my slot in the worst faith possible, and anyone who is skeptical of me = towny.

thats how u can sum up their reading process.

this isnt how town approaches reads.
this is how scum discredits.


as soon as clidd pointed out that this is NAI for me > pivoted off.

this implies clidd is not aligned with gimli(like 50% sure, but gun to head would bet on not teammates rn)

clidd, as someone who plays at tables with myself in every game I play, I know that that is exactly what scum does in relation to my slot very often when they do not know me. Those that know me will more often attempt to pocket me as that's my weakness, or something in between if they're especially smart(pooky from coalition a few months ago comes to mind).

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too). Basically, even if I were scum here, I would have posted nearly the same exact thing. But it could have been slightly different depending on partners. If you really care about sorting me i have games where I show that lines like this are NAI, just read my history lmfao. I won't ever push meta that says im outside my scumrange, but I will push meta that what you're pushing is fully NAI.


anyways self meta over -

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

I will say the ashoka vote isn't bad, that entrance is pretty flimsy. I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof. but lets play with it VOTE: ashoka

You say Gimli is approaching in terrible faith but then vote the person Gimli is voting. Why is that?
If I remembered correctly, Gimli is the one with the entrance I found show-y and Ashoka is the one that I can't remember anything about but both have similar avatars.

Radja is obvscum

I would like an explanation on this.

It reflects me as malicious, but not explicitly. It is a personal feeling.

I already made some posts of mech stuff (as scum) and even though it should be seen naturally as nai, I noticed that some players seemed to trust me more.

Here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11811488

Not saying it is scummy, but in the context of Volxen, who is a very competent player as scum, it gave me a shiver.

I remember other example too about I correctly scumreading scum with the same feeling, but I need to take a look to see if I can find the game.

I have never seen someone make a mech post likely due to me not playing any complicated games like this one but I don't see how it would make anyone look more towny.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

This is really a stretch. My scumread here stands.

I don't know Volxen but I'll keep this in mind. That was a long explanation to say that's not who you'd push as scum. Self-meta like that isn't something I read into much. For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners.

Once again, what is this? I hate nearly every post she makes.

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

I don't have a specific opinion on any one of Ashoka's posts but I definitely do not find them scummy.

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

This I hate very much for how defensive it is. I am considering moving this down to scum read.

pedit: what

Off this alone, clidd is now my top townread.

oh hi flavor leaf

Who is that?

oh hi flavor leaf

ow about you let other people decide if that is a townslip? also fair to note DK was annoying my slot cause redflavor had like a small hint of being mechanically aware, and now they're looking like they don't know anything at all about the game they're playing. so how does dkkoba know there's a doomcounter and they don't know there's 3 mafia?

DK can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted their reasoning behind their early Red scumread as that, if Red rolled scum the doom counter would be fresher in his mind since it’s mentioned in the scum role PM, whereas the DC is not mentioned in the town role PM. I don’t think it’s a great reason to be scumreading your slot, but I believe that is where DK is coming from regarding the scumread of Red’s opener.

I don’t think it’s really far-fetched that town!DK could have been aware of the DC early on but glossed over the fact that there are three scum vs two scum. DK might have simply focused on the DC part of the setup information and overlooked the number of town vs scum if they were reading the setup primarily to learn about the DC mechanic.

The alternative explanation is that DK is scum and faked all of these “mistakes” by pretending to think that there were only two scum, and that scum could also nightkill. I don’t think this is as likely because DK’s progression that started with incorrect analysis (2 scum and nightkills) and ended with them realizing their mistakes seemed genuine to me.

Also, if you look back at the early interactions between Red and DK at the very beginning of the game (5, 6, 7), DK’s posts where they called Red’s opener scummy and said it was a somewhat serious vote came 2 minutes after Red’s “hardclaim DC” opener. Scum!DK couldn’t have possibly pre-planned that opener, unless they are scum with your slot. And if you are town and DK is scum, I don’t know that DK would be able to come up with that fake reasoning to scumread Red over his opener that quickly. Granted, DK only initially said that Red’s opener was scummy without explaining why, but they knew they would have to eventually explain why (and DK did as soon as Red replaced out), so I think that regardless of DK’s alignment they knew what the explanation of the scumread was going to be at the time that they called Red’s opener scummy. I think it’s more likely to be a genuine thought process coming from town!DK rather than a fake thought process coming from scum!DK, especially when the short time lapse is taken into account.

I'm going to have to ask you to explain exactly where you stand because this post is not faring well with my brain after an entire day of work.

volxen im feeling that vibe u fit into a very similar archaetype of player like I do

Volxen is a townread because Dkkoba posted this.

just so you won't think I'm picking on you, I just found all your posting to be scum indicative as I was catching up. I could be wrong of course.

There were a few instances where I had to get my glasses and make sure I was reading correctly but I disagree that all of it was bad.

VOTE: horsewoman come play

I townread this.

Radja is still obvscum

Dropped to scum read until I get an explanation for this.

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

I don't like clidd twisting this to make it sound like he was being targeted. I never interpreted anything Ahsoka said as calling him a villain or even sussing him.
I'm going to move over here VOTE: clidd

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

The tone felt fine to me too. Maybe just because it wasn't directed at me but I don't see how it made him feel like a villain.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

Then this further supports my point earlier that clidd might be setting up a push.

I hate Raya's posting way too much. Every post looks so scummy. This is my top scum read.

An example of this type of impression is this post (

town!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12060913

I can feel it when Volxen presents a line of reasoning that I look at and think ''gee, this analysis is super towny, I think I would think the same if we switch places''.

Unlike this, for example (

scum!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11618440

Where I can smell superficiality 1 km away.

It seems to me that you were the opposite alignment both times. If that is true, I am hesitant to believe this analysis.

But hopefully, we are in a reality where everything is flowing as I expected and my reads on the slots are going well.

This sounds a little self conscious.

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

Why?

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

I cc

Why?

(Mixed up who replaced into which slot)

I feel like this comes from town more than scum. I'm going to lift this to null.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

Is there a difference?

Hullo! I wish you all a great sunday ahead.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Maybe if you understood their argument you'd understand why I'm so hard in leaning raya town. It does appear to me that raya, volxen and clidd are playing something of a game of their own, with all that combined meta and wits between the 3 of them. Raya caught clidd being too hasty in townreading volxen for something volxen did that isn't supposed to be read as towny, and I think the push in that direction was too nuanced to ever come from scum. Even if clidd is town, that doesn't diminish the towniness in raya's thought process.

Speaking of which, I was a little uneasy with clidd's strong TR of me, because my TR of clidd was weaking at that point and I think he noticed it (given I was open about strong townreading raya), and I felt that maybe clidd decided to try to maintain himself on my good side by pocketing me. I'm not sure my posts were towny enough to be townread that strongly.

I absolutely hated the push on clidd. It looked very slimy. I don't think past experience with a player justifies nasty pushes like that.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

This switched too fast but I still think it's a towny thought process. I think I'm going to officially move Gimli up to a townread.

did a re-read on the entire thing.

clidd is a stronger townlean now than before the re-read. I think what bothers me the most about him is townreading volxen based off nothing, then trying to act smart about it. I'm also townreading ahsoka now. I think the way she developed her posting in thread was very natural and the way she responded to pressure was good. it's not much but I gotta work with this townpool for now <raya, ahsoka, clidd>.

if I squint real hard, I can see something towny about radja. NM did nothing either way.

that leaves me with volxen, dkkoba and horsewoman. volxen's wall defending dkkoba's tripping over themselves at the beginning of d1 and then dkkoba going 'i feel naked uwu' and then defending volxen when no one was pushing him are all suspicious to me. + no one pushed horsewoman yet, someone who was just here to complain about a game having 6 pages 36 hours into it. if she was town there'd be a wagon already.

Volxen was dropped to a null once my scum read on dkkoba faded out.
I agree with the clidd townread.
Ahsoka is a null for me for now. I've wavered in between townread and null for them so I think the townread is reasonable.
Raya I disagree with entirely. She hasn't posted a single post that I haven't felt was extremely scummy.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

new user posts in thread for first time. absolutely shocking. i should have just used quantum time travel to post in a thread before having posted in it for the first time.

Like come on man, bring the game into the game, bring your paranoid crap into the admins DMs not here.

This level of anger and frustration doesn't feel fake. I'm going to call it town.

I mean obviously this is forced and ridiculous (doing actual game-related catchup now)

This can be my new top townread.

This, however, is a relatively lazy read from Gimli. Just finished a game with him (my first game onsite so don't expect any other meta from me) where he was scum and he was universally townread and really competent. So he's someone I want to have my eye on throughout this one.

I'm honestly unsure what I think of Gimli currently. His entrance made me think scum but after that mostly everything was null or townread material. I can't remember most of his posts also. I can only think of off the top of my head one readslist that I agreed with except for the Raya read.

Okay this reads list is so bad I'm joining this wagon

VOTE: Radja.

I'm caught up, it was super easy and fast because most of the 12 pages was dkkoba spewing nonsense. Although I don't mind making short multiposts, I think posting as much as koba is is kind of anti-town (at least on mafiascum, where games are soooooooo slow), so I would advise koba to cut that aspect out of his playstyle/this game.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him. Koba has made a lot of posts I disagree with and posts like 223 really rub me the wrong way. Radja's reads list is so atrocious I don't think it can come from anyone trying to solve/read the game. I'm kind of biased against koba because he's accused me (without evidence) of being an alt of a guy who was apparently banned for sexual harassment, and that's a really fucking uncool thing to do. So I've got personal animus there. Post 217 from clidd I really dislike, the thought process of 'I agree with him so he's town' is itself, really artificial. I liked ahsoka's posting a reasonable amount.

Now I'm having problems with this readslist.
Clidd is solid town. Occasionally I question it but overall, I'm pretty sure he's just town.
Gimli and Dkkoba are still nulls. I dont think I'm willing to give either a townread thinking back on that.
I think I was too quick to townread this and am dropping it to null now.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

the way this is my exact GtH solve rn

This sort of interaction is the sort I'd usually say wouldn't be between two scum but I think it has a high chance of being so here. That's because the setup of 3 scum out of 9 heavily incentivizes the scum to buddy up and stick together, because if all 3 are going the same way they only need 2 town to join them. So basically I'm saying that bussing is incredibly unlikely and scum overtly allying is much more possible.

I don't think they are scum together.

I'm saying that close buddying up in this game is more likely to be scummy in this game than other games. You and N_M have closely buddied up, which in the context of this game, is scummy behaviour. Please don't immaturely attempt to own me.

Nevermind. I think this has to be town. Back to town reads.

Town: Clidd, Horsewoman
Null: Ahsoka, Gimli, Dkkoba, V-something
Scum: Raya, Not_Mafia

I'm halfway caught up with a full set of reads and a decent amount of confidence! This is it for tonight and I'll be back to read the rest tomorrow.

[clidd]

I know it's bad logic to use the argument "her post looks like a post she made in another game where she was scum, so she must be scum here", but I’m starting to feel more and more, by gut, that she’s actually scum. The way she is mirroring my read on her atm to "see" me as town does not strike me as a genuine assessment, as well as the impressions I got from her last post.

[clidd]

Well, that's it.

I'll take a break.

[clidd]

@Llama

Yes, the most recent experiences I remember are here:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Ahsoka

If I was scum, you would buy it.

Meh, no.

You won as scum against me, Ahsoka, you know that I'm more aware of your scumgame now.

I'm still meh to me, you can fake that as scum too.

The reasons you're pushing aren't really strong to infer scum!clidd when you saw how town!clidd thinks in names on the list.

I need to take a second look on the things you're typing, however.

Selfmeta is the same thing you did on names on the list as scum.

"I wouldn't do x as scum, scum!me would do y, and etc etc"

Clidd, why did you think Ahsoka was strongly town earlier in the game ? (as he thought of you)

you probably mentioned but i forget

it was a passing impression, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't remember exactly, but there was a period when the game was aligned with another one temporarily, so I was playing with FL in two games.

in the other game (names on the list) I started the game suspecting him, but then I started to trust him a lot and that trust was transmitted to this game.

but by the time that game was over and i found out he was scum, i noticed that a lot of the things i was townreading about him could easily be manufactured.

so I started to be more cautious with my read and started to develop until I could be sure of his alignment.

there were some periods when he commented on things about paranoia, of finding me scummy and there was a moment when he thought me and abr ​​were partners in the hood, but I felt that I was so identical to our past game (in which i was town), that many of these impressions did not sound genuine to me. it was almost as if he was approaching the game in another way so that I couldn't detect scum!he. he knew that i would suspect him if he reciprocated the reads imo, which is why makes soo much sense to much his push of ''oh, clidd is setting me up'' in a scum!FL scenario.

(Ahsoka was scum)

And here:

Spoiler:

Alright.

I'm still comfortable with the wagon on Maduisha after another reread.

In the balance of Maduisha against Sam, in my mind, Maduisha is the PoE side that I consider most likely to be scum.

And maybe there was an error on my part in evaluating Maduisha's meta early.

After reviewing the games (scumgames):

- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go
- https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I noticed that she does have the capacity to be in her scum-range here. There was no break, tbh.

(Maduisha was scum)

[clidd]

It's important to emphasize that I don't promise accuracy, considering that I have also had games in which my meta reads were not as conclusive as I thought and I ended up getting bad/wrong reads.