Mini Normal 2258 | Bunnies [Postgame]

[Andresvmb]

I’m here, I’m Town. Let’s do this.

VOTE: Frogs are not kings

[Andresvmb]

It truly hurts to be betrayed by datisi like this

i would never :3

I actually think maybe it is baltar

i am interested in which one of *checks notes* 3 of baltar's posts at that time did you find suspicious

skitter30 and vp baltar are town, which means that already, this game will be 75% less of a headache than i thought

anyway

VOTE: andresvmb

this is the game. i can feel it.

I love you too

You do know I want it to be over with. You’ll actually get to see that my Scum game is pretty poor.

[Andresvmb]

40

I fundamentally do not have an issue if you want to say that skitter gives you Town vibes for Unvoting in that scenario where you had gathered a lot of votes early. On average, I’m going to guess that’s probably correct. But I wouldn’t completely discount the possibility that Scum couldn’t possibly have piled on there and then Unvoted to give the appearance of letting the thread breathe. And let’s get real - if you’re Town, Scum aren’t going to turn around and put

you

at E-1 and really think you’re going to get hammered out of nowhere. Not with this player list.

[Andresvmb]

I think scum!tisi would probably both post later than he did and take a different tone than what he's got already.

Different tone? Also, have you played with scumtisi recently?

I haven't been here for about 6 months and the game I'm basing this off of was almost a year ago so it could have changed but Datisi is chronically incapable of keeping his shit together when scum from my experience, so I'd expect him to come across as more paranoid and panic-sounding if he were scum. I modded 2195 and got to see his mental breakdowns in real time and there's a lot of similarity between that playerlist and this one.

@outworlder ... what do u think of the speedwagon on dats and/or the people involved in it?

The only person I get any minor scumpings on in the wagon is Ari for 36 (feels like a weak excuse made to try and sway Datisi from his Baltar read) but it's not something I'd commit to at this moment. I agree with Datisi on your contribution to the wagon and Baltar seems to be playing how I remember him playing 2195 where he was town.

I have used the same logic to develop a read on Datisi, so I can vouch for this. And I would agree that Datisi is not giving me really nervous vibes after picking up a lot of votes, so I’m leaning the same way. It’s early and all that, but it’s a solid start.

[Andresvmb]

@RTP it’s always good to see you.

Talk to me about your vote - do you think the naked vote is enough to really form a view of IV there?

[Andresvmb]

hi andres,

starv and dunya say hi

I’m in a game that StarV is modding somewhere else. Should be fun.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but see that’s my point - Scum that actually hammers you there absolutely gets policied the next day. No Scum worth their salt would do that. You just immediately jump to the top of the execution list and you’ll never win an Endgame. I’m just telling you, I would never do that, and I have a hard time seeing any of the players I’ve played with here do that either. I was quite pumped about the player list, and I really don’t think you’re going to see stupidity of that sort in this game.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’m discounting your read of skitter there I guess is what I’m getting at, but I can see why you have the view in the first place. So if I’m purely focused on how you’re forming the read, I think it’s a positive, even if I think the read itself is not solid.

[Andresvmb]

Naked votes are not a scumtell.

Yeah I mean I made this point, but it’s not like you’re contributing much of anything right now. What do you make of the votes on you so far?

[Andresvmb]

I’m back tomorrow btw.

Also, @RTP what you voting? I’ll follow you today since I’m quite a bit behind and it’s an easy way for me to figure out what you are. You never did answer my question though about IV but I don’t think IV has come back at all so I’m not sure there’s that much to say anyway.

[Andresvmb]

Also I'm not really caught up nor do I do intend to fully catchup really but I think calling my naked vote bad for the sake of it being a naked vote by itself is bad but I don't have any opinion on who's scummy for that

I was caught up to something like here, but IV actually has posted since. I can take a look myself.

[Andresvmb]

I have used the same logic to develop a read on Datisi

Coming back on this, OutER said Datisi can't keep his shit together as scum. Can you explain what this means to you more specifically? What are you looking for roughly and how has Datisi's play run counter to that this game?

Not sure I really buy the notion that Datisi can't keep his shit together *checks notes* for less than 10 pages.

I don’t think I said that I had perceived that Datisi was keeping their shit together. I said that they way they were generating a read looked to me like it was coming from Town. I also indicated that the meta on Datisi checked out, in that they act nervous and a bit overly energized as Scum, particularly under pressure (which to start the game they were). I didn’t spend sufficient time trying to figure out whether I was perceiving Datisi as being calm. Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

Also I'm not really caught up nor do I do intend to fully catchup really but I think calling my naked vote bad for the sake of it being a naked vote by itself is bad but I don't have any opinion on who's scummy for that

I was caught up to something like here, but IV actually has posted since. I can take a look myself.

House and I stop death tunneling each other eventually. If you're rereadng I guess my recommendation would be to keep an eye out for Lap, a50, and iv, they're a part of a few players solve. House also includes one or more of skitter, you or Something_Smart in their solve and Reformed has VP in their solve.

I think House is sharp to be totally honest, but I do think RTP is a brilliant D1 player. If RTP is Town, then they’re definitely worth listening to here. I haven’t read enough to establish a read there, but I’m heavily leaning towards taking the easy out and start running through RTP’s POE and if we start hitting Scum, just keep going.

[Andresvmb]

Just as a side note - I’ll fully catch up and read every last post eventually. I always do. During the week I’m mostly trying to read and stay on top of the game so it doesn’t move completely away from me, but work is heavy lately and it’s just busy.

[Andresvmb]

@Frog I’ll be honest, I think it’s quite worthwhile trying to sort through whether RTP is Town. If you lean positively there, then consider sheeping the slot. I definitely have to put in the work because it’ll give me some confidence that I don’t have to bumble in the dark like an idiot. I also feel like my confidence has taken a hit lately with the way I really ruined an Endgame recently, so I am trying not to push too hard myself.

[Andresvmb]

I think House is sharp to be totally honest

*confbias triggered*

Why you buddying me, buddy?

I'm calling you scum, and you're calling me sharp?

I’m showing respect where it’s due. I have no idea what you’re pushing beyond what Frog summarized for me in like 2 sentences.

[Andresvmb]

but I do think RTP is a brilliant D1 player. If RTP is Town, then they’re definitely worth listening to here.

And yes I did read this, but 2 of his scumreads are terribad.

Which ones?

[Andresvmb]

If you detailed exactly what you saw in a different post quote it for me. Otherwise I’ll get to it eventually, or you can expand upon what town tells you saw.

[Andresvmb]

If you detailed exactly what you saw in a different post quote it for me. Otherwise I’ll get to it eventually, or you can expand upon what town tells you saw.

It would not serve town's interest for me to towncase iv on day 1 when we already have a wagon on scum.

Nothing productive will come off that.

That was for Frog. Sorry that wasn’t clear. My main priority is to figure out how I’m leaning on RTP. Frog is basically volunteering to do the work for me.

[Andresvmb]

@House what wagon are you referring to specifically? I can’t find a recent VC.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Laplacian

I’m going to put this down for now.

[Andresvmb]

@Frog not to bash your case too much, but what I’m seeing from the quotes is that you’re basically backing RTP as Town because they called your reads bad, your strategy flawed, but concluded you’re Town and you what? Vibe with the confidence? I’m just confused haha talk to me about that.

I think RTP is probably a bit more over the top / belligerent as Scum. And they’re not pushing their case all that hard. Unfortunately this just means I’m actually going to have to read myself. That’ll have to wait until tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

Monkey Business is this your usual M.O.?

Andre do you want me to make like an actual RTP deep dive? That stuff was the turning point in time where I went from scum reading to town reading RTP, but at that point in time I thought they were like just an above average player.

They’re not just above average but that’s all I’ll say haha they’re just good to play with. And that’s with them as either alignment, though I still resent that Friendly Neighbor gambit they pulled against me.

I suggest you firm up what you make of the slot, and share it with the class. It’ll help me settle more firmly on what I think about you. And who knows, maybe it helps me with sorting RTP.

[Andresvmb]

I suggest you firm up what you make of the slot, and share it with the class. It’ll help me settle more firmly on what I think about you. And who knows, maybe it helps me with sorting RTP.

Feels like you got the order backwards, there.

No I don’t. I trust my own ability to read RTP over Frog’s, while still acknowledging that RTP can and has fooled me in the past (though not forever). I think Frog is tryharding in a way that makes them more often than not Town and peering through their logic helps me sort them.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t caught up nearly enough but I’m fine with the execution. RTP sounds just too confident and I don’t remember them playing like this ever as Scum D1. I don’t think RTP is the type to want to give themselves away with a shit execution this early and absolutely lose their sway and voice. They would be hard hedging I think.

[Andresvmb]

I stayed up until the middle of the night just working - I’m exhausted right now and I don’t have time to read every post. So expect me to catch up slowly over the next few days.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t caught up nearly enough but I’m fine with the execution. RTP sounds just too confident and I don’t remember them playing like this ever as Scum D1. I don’t think RTP is the type to want to give themselves away with a shit execution this early and absolutely lose their sway and voice. They would be hard hedging I think.

RTP did a bunch of townie things yesterday IMO.

Look I judge RTP largely based on results. I think they’re a strong player, and certainly too strong for me to be fully convinced by rhetoric D1. Which is why I want Laplacian flipped.

[Andresvmb]

I have called RTP (can I just say Koba the rest of the way? I know you alt-slipped already but I was trying not to confuse anyone) solid Town as Scum before, and they’ve beaten me twice now with two fake claims (one better than the other - what was that Vigilante claim you used that made no sense?). I will feel a lot better once I see Laplacian flip - that’s all I’m trying to get at.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t caught up nearly enough but I’m fine with the execution. RTP sounds just too confident and I don’t remember them playing like this ever as Scum D1. I don’t think RTP is the type to want to give themselves away with a shit execution this early and absolutely lose their sway and voice. They would be hard hedging I think.

RTP did a bunch of townie things yesterday IMO.

Look I judge RTP largely based on results. I think they’re a strong player, and certainly too strong for me to be fully convinced by rhetoric D1. Which is why I want Laplacian flipped.

Would you be sus of them after 1 misflip or would it take 2?

If Laplacian flips Town - I think that’s enough to strongly reconsider there. Only because there’s too much confidence in the push (and I skimmed, so feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). It’s not like Koba doesn’t make mistakes - we all do. Hell, just look at my last game if you want proof.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back tonight.

Btw, good to see you Mathblade. I’m also glad we can sort of treat you like an IC.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi why is Frogsterking Town here to you again? Can you walk me through that? Because I’m reading 924 and thinking to myself - how is this not Scum backtracking after pushing a really strong case against Scum in 592, only to get back on that wagon later? I see one important commonality between the wagon that pushed Laplacian (which I am also inclined to think contained a busser mind you, though why Mathblade insisted so hard in starting there is well beyond me), and the Skitter wagon, and that’s Frogsterking. And how do you make sense of the backtrack after a post like 785? It’s funny, it’s not even that subtle - they were really trying to get RTP to move away in 901.

1857 now reads like Scum just egging on a Town execution, and I think Frogsterking is sidelining the wrong voices in an attempt to pocket certain players (such as Math) and lead down the wrong path. Their vote for Ari around 1699 is awful, and then shading there makes no sense. I am truly amazed we’re totally ignoring Frogsterking as potential Scum.

I also read that post by S_S and took the absolute opposite conclusion. I thought it was totally unlike Scum to want to say that Skitter was not in their Town meta there.

[Andresvmb]

I went back and read D2 in detail and I really do think Frog looks awful if you look at the totality of posts. I just can’t understand why they seemed to want to bury Laplacian so much only to then move

away

from that. If I am looking at a player and I make an argument as solid as the one Frogsterking seemed to make, I would never move. It’s just bizarre to me.

[Andresvmb]

I see one important commonality between the wagon that pushed Laplacian (which I am also inclined to think contained a busser mind you, though why Mathblade insisted so hard in starting there is well beyond me), and the Skitter wagon, and that’s Frogsterking.

didn't both me and ari also be on both of those wagons? and math-slot for that matter?

I TR you and Ari quite strongly, and I am trusting VPB’s clear quite frankly.

[Andresvmb]

weren't we both on those wagons* jfc english is difficult

i'll read the posts you linked in a bit, but the thing is, wrt 2011, if a scum player actually is planning to make such a huge fucking case against their buddy like frogs did against lapla, i think they would never ever get off from that wagon because at that point, the whole idea is to bus them into the ground and reap towncred from the redflip

They didn’t just get off though. They tried to convince RTP to move away. The giant case is all great. I agree it’s quite strong. But where’s the Towny conviction? It just seems strategic more than a real read. Read that post again, and tell me you wouldn’t want to bury a player you had said all those things about. How can you explain the shift away from the wagon, if not Scum chickening out?

[Andresvmb]

i think s_s is the other

if i poweryeet scum today, will you trust me and get math tomorrow

Look I’ve been reading S_S. I’m not seeing S_S Scum. I’m also not going to fully discount the possibility that there are modifiers in the game that might disrupt VPB’s role, and Math has been too stubborn against Ari pushing a mathematical argument that I really don’t buy, but I think the odds point firmly at Math being Town. The odds of VPB hitting a Scum player with a Modifier that protects them from the Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (cool role btw) are just not great. And I’m sure you’re not of the thought that the entire Scum Team has modifiers that would shield them from that role (it’s possible one does, and Laplacian did flip Goon, but really?).

[Andresvmb]

I do think Scum with Ascetic as a Modifier is more likely than not to Claim it as well, only to protect against the possibility of being checked in some way and not having a strong defense (or having their Modifier then come out at the worst possible time for them). Did Math ever hint at being negative utility?

[Andresvmb]

baltar didn't crumb his n1 action, he crashed a truck full of bread

^^^^

it doesn't have to be an ascetic or commuter. it might be a blocking role. other than vpb (who can get clears) we also have a vigilante in town. i don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that scumfucks have a roleblocker or jailkeeper or whatever.

and no, the slot is already claimed as a n1 vig backup or some bs like that

I don’t know man. I’m struggling with it I’m not going to lie.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andresvmb

You’ve been wrong all game and continue to be wrong.

@Frogsterking - I don’t think you’re Scum for OMGUS’ing me (I’m well beyond believing that only Scum do that), but your rationale for pushing me is absurd.

[Andresvmb]

VP inno'd A50 (which we now know is legit), of course he was the nk.

am i insane for thinking that baltar might be the nightkill and the outworld kill might be a vig shot? because it's either that, or baltar died visiting someone last night, and scum killed outworld, and like... i don't know why scum kills outworld there...

Wait seriously. I assumed right away VP lied about the inno and was the vig kill and OutworldER was the NK because scum read OutWorldER as pr. Sorry dats I guess you weren't insane for wondering (unless I am also insane.)

RTP said andres is supposed to be good in the endgame and gets fearkilled a lot and andres is wrong here so I'm just going to OMGus him.

VOTE: andres

I don't really buy his argument that he sees a scum motivation in those posts of mine he links, I think I look pretty townie aside from the skitter hammer.

Read this and tell me this is coming from Town. I’m “wrong” and therefore I’m Scum?! What? And RTP was wrong about VPB - doesn’t make them any less Town. And RTP

is

a stronger Town player than I am.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Andresvmb

You’ve been wrong all game and continue to be wrong.

@Frogsterking - I don’t think you’re Scum for OMGUS’ing me (I’m well beyond believing that only Scum do that), but your rationale for pushing me is absurd.

My rationale may be absurd but at least it's rational, andres rationale is that absurd = scummy therefore frogs is scum.

This isn’t even remotely accurate. It’s like you haven’t even bothered reading what I actually wrote and are grabbing onto the last thing I wrote. I’m calling your case against me absurd because it is. You’re making an argument based on proficiency that is extreme. You’re acknowledging that you’ve made moves that could be considered to be Scummy, and yet I’m supposed to ignore everything you’ve done because I can read tone and intention perfectly. How is that rational?

[Andresvmb]

VP inno'd A50 (which we now know is legit), of course he was the nk.

am i insane for thinking that baltar might be the nightkill and the outworld kill might be a vig shot? because it's either that, or baltar died visiting someone last night, and scum killed outworld, and like... i don't know why scum kills outworld there...

Wait seriously. I assumed right away VP lied about the inno and was the vig kill and OutworldER was the NK because scum read OutWorldER as pr. Sorry dats I guess you weren't insane for wondering (unless I am also insane.)

RTP said andres is supposed to be good in the endgame and gets fearkilled a lot and andres is wrong here so I'm just going to OMGus him.

VOTE: andres

I don't really buy his argument that he sees a scum motivation in those posts of mine he links, I think I look pretty townie aside from the skitter hammer.

Read this and tell me this is coming from Town. I’m “wrong” and therefore I’m Scum?! What? And RTP was wrong about VPB - doesn’t make them any less Town. And RTP

is

a stronger Town player than I am.

Nah andres hide all game and then push a townie on D3 with no tones of uncertainty. I guess Math was right about the "1 scum on wagon" thing.

Now I’m hiding all game?

Though I don’t trust your ability to actually check on anyone’s meta since you tried to bury Skitter based on meta if I’m not wrong, you should do your due diligence and try to ascertain whether I slack ever. Which, you’ll find, I do. You can’t take RTP’s claim that I’m a strong late game player at face value and then absolutely ignore them also stating that I’m constantly behind. That’s selective bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

When you say very good AtE do you mean that you'll AtE for multiple pages and bring up past games and stuff?

This is my only completed scum game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

you can read it for how I can use AtE as mafia.

LOL it looks just like this.

VOTE: Ari

Ah no it was against Ari so ignore that. For what it’s worth I think you’re way wrong but I can’t use this shit against you unless Ari actually flips Town.

[Andresvmb]

I think that if you guys want players to actually stay up to date, with the game, then you should consider making more concise cases. I will try and read everything that’s been written but 20 pages in less than a day is an impossible pace for anyone that has real life obligations.

[Andresvmb]

When you say very good AtE do you mean that you'll AtE for multiple pages and bring up past games and stuff?

This is my only completed scum game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

you can read it for how I can use AtE as mafia.

LOL it looks just like this.

VOTE: Ari

When you say very good AtE do you mean that you'll AtE for multiple pages and bring up past games and stuff?

This is my only completed scum game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

you can read it for how I can use AtE as mafia.

LOL it looks just like this.

VOTE: Ari

UNVOTE: Ari

I'm joking, sorry I couldn't resist, seriously I think Ari is town.

When you say very good AtE do you mean that you'll AtE for multiple pages and bring up past games and stuff?

This is my only completed scum game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

you can read it for how I can use AtE as mafia.

LOL it looks just like this.

VOTE: Ari

Ah no it was against Ari so ignore that. For what it’s worth I think you’re way wrong but I can’t use this shit against you unless Ari actually flips Town.

andres seriously what the fuck are you even trying to accomplish

I’m finding it really hard to believe that you play this carelessly as Town. What do you mean what is it that I’m trying to accomplish? I’m trying to find Scum. You mindlessly trying to shade me for every little thing is annoying me now.

[Andresvmb]

Apparently we’re doing this silly mass claim crap

I imagine you’re going to claim VT and this is even more silly.

We are massclaiming? Isn’t it a bit early?

[Andresvmb]

I need to read.

[Andresvmb]

Whatever. I’m VT. I don’t have enough time to read everything. However I’ll say this. There were two NK’s and one of them was OW and the other was the Weak Fruit Loyal Vendor. I have a hard time seeing how the Vig is not clearly responsible for the death of the unclaimed, rather Scummy slot. In fact I assumed it immediately. They obviously are never shooting VPB. It’s entirely possible that VPB both visited Datisi and Datisi is Scum, and VPB was shot by Scum, but I don’t think you can use VPB’s death as definitive proof of anything since I would have most certainly picked the claimed Investigative Role for the NK as Scum, regardless of whatever the slot was softing.

[Andresvmb]

I have largely skimmed today, so take it with a grain of salt, but I have a real hard time seeing Datisi as Scum here. I think Aristeia is quite competent, so I don’t want to say definitively that they’re Town, but I would be amazed if they flipped Scum.

I think Frogsterking has realized that their only viable option is to push me hard here, and that’s why I’m getting shade from them every second post. And frankly, I don’t care about getting executed provided Frogsterking also gets executed. I don’t feel the need to have to repeat myself a million times, but I will add that the slot was intent on almost speed hammering what is now the claimed Gunsmith, and none of you even felt the need to bring that up.

[Andresvmb]

I also don’t think the solution is to be found entirely within the VT claims. I don’t. Again, if this is Datisi Scum, and I have seen Datisi play Scum and this really doesn’t feel like it (and RTP vetoed that execution also), then I’m stuck being forced to contemplate a world with Aristeia Scum and why does Scum here even begin to question the validity of the Gunsmith alignment or argue so forcefully against Mathblade who is making me want to shoot myself in this game at times.

[Andresvmb]

ffff that's a lot of posts. I'll fully respond once I'm off work, but 1. frogster's 592 case is garbage and 2. what exactly is "lunchbait"? I have ideas from context, but want to make sure.

@Datisi stuff like this just makes me think that you’re discounting too hard that there was intense distancing going on between Lap and Frogsterking and though Lap appears to have abandoned the game towards the end of D1, I do think the strategy to distance is somewhat obvious.

[Andresvmb]

@Math, is 2752 acceptable from your perspective? You’ve shaded Aristeia and Datisi aggressively for doubting your alignment today. What do you make of this?

[Andresvmb]

andres, mind tl;dring me your reads? you townread me and ari, scumread frogs, i'm assuming you think house is town, what's the status on the rest? i'm not assuming that against mathblade is an explicit scumread.

It’s not. The mechanical argument for Mathblade is too strong for me to ignore. So I haven’t spent a lot of time trying to read the slot because I think the odds are dramatically in their favor of having been cleared. I’m finding Math to be irritating as all shit this game (way too stubborn in my view), but that doesn’t make them Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Why is House cleared again?

[Andresvmb]

when i look at ur scum range will i find examples of u faking optimism?

Take a look at my scum games.

Only the ones from 2021 count. My meta has shifted drastically since 2016.

im afraid to im afraid i wont be able to find anyway to read u.

Bullshit.

My town & scum games are ridiculously different.

Is it because they keep insisting on stuff like this?

[Andresvmb]

I could make the meta argument (checked by other players and stated from a confirmed Town mindset elsewhere in case you want to bother to look for it) that I avoid bussing as hard as I can as Scum. I almost never do it, and I have in the past even avoided bussing a Cop guilty. But those arguments should be properly discounted.

Now, does House make two hard claims, one CLEARLY designed to “eat the NK” as Scum? I would say that perhaps not, but that assessment is not as solid because House is evidently not against fake claiming as either alignment, and so it’s not as powerful. But yeah it’s not where I would be looking first here.

[Andresvmb]

andres, mind tl;dring me your reads? you townread me and ari, scumread frogs, i'm assuming you think house is town, what's the status on the rest? i'm not assuming that against mathblade is an explicit scumread.

It’s not. The mechanical argument for Mathblade is too strong for me to ignore. So I haven’t spent a lot of time trying to read the slot because I think the odds are dramatically in their favor of having been cleared. I’m finding Math to be irritating as all shit this game (way too stubborn in my view), but that doesn’t make them Scum.

well, okay, in that case, why/how do you think scum isn't within vt claims?

Because I think you’re not Scum. I have found you inquisitive, somewhat irritable, but aggressive in a good way, and with an independent mindset. You have hard TR Aristeia (and the reverse) for most of the game, which I think would be absurd for Scum Partners. Since I SR Frogsterking for reasons I’ve stated already, I’m having trouble pinning down the Partner.

[Andresvmb]

I’m excluding S_S (who is the closest we have to a Confirmed Town) and IV (who as Gunsmith with a confirmed check on S_S and against what was actually stated in the thread up until that time, fits mechanically with the setup).

[Andresvmb]

I mean @Datisi how convinced are you that Aristeia is Town? Because if your level of conviction is very high, do you think there’s any potential that you’re being pocketed?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: skitter

I did it, rip the tiger

The fact that some of you (I’m looking at you S_S) really want to execute me ahead of Frogsterking is nuts to me, but I really don’t care what order we actually run through this provided that Frogsterking gets executed.

[Andresvmb]

when i look at ur scum range will i find examples of u faking optimism?

Take a look at my scum games.

Only the ones from 2021 count. My meta has shifted drastically since 2016.

im afraid to im afraid i wont be able to find anyway to read u.

Bullshit.

My town & scum games are ridiculously different.

Is it because they keep insisting on stuff like this?

If you actually had any interest in solving me instead of finding a mislim, it would take you five minutes (or less) to confirm the truth of my assertion.

I don’t discount meta, and I don’t just entirely disregard self-meta, but I have abandoned making definitive meta claims in games because of a really bad error I made against a player in a different game. I also think meta arguments are extremely easy to use by Scum intent on manipulating a situation, so I think it’s quite unfair for you to say “well it would take you 5 minutes to confirm if this game is really outside of my Scum range, so you’re showing no interest in solving me correctly”. That’s nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

For me to actually verify your claim @House, wouldn’t I have to read multiple games you’ve been involved in? I’ve been involved in an endless stream of consecutive games as Town, and it doesn’t stop the sort of argument coming from Frogsterking that I never slack as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Which is the point - unless we’ve played in over 20 games together as both alignments and actually know each other well, why would I just know that a meta claim you’re making about yourself is true? And what makes you think I could just easily verify that? It’s totally unreasonable. But you’re passing it off as an obvious argument and that’s garbage.

[Andresvmb]

Blah blah blah.

You're straight up ignoring my meta or your have already seen exactly what I was talking about.

Nice scum claim though, Mr. "I don't entirely discount meta".

I’m straight up ignoring your meta now. If YOU fucking bothered to look at how I play, YOU could easily see that I have expressed this view in the past multiple times. You would also know that I’ve grossly misinterpreted meta, and you would ALSO know that I don’t have the time to read multiple games you’ve been in to verify what you’re saying. It’s been said you wouldn’t be playing like this as Scum so I have considered that, but this expectation you’re setting is entirely unreasonable. Why you can’t see that is beyond me.

[Andresvmb]

i don't necessarily think house is scum, but that kinda argument is worthless - in order to verify it, andres would have to go through all of house's post-hiatus games to determine there isn't a game that deviates from the chaotic good - lawful evil mindset. and even then it wouldn't actually prove anything because town!meta can sometimes be mimicked. so yeah.

I haven't been in that many games as scum, but enough to prove the point.

My scum game is fucking mild.

The lack of logic behind your argument is infuriating. You seem to be quite aware how your Scum game is perceived. You’re also admitting not to have played that many Scum games at all. So why would I be able to conclusively state that there’s any trend in your Scum game that should be extended forever?

Whatever, I’m not going to convince you of the unreasonableness of what you’re proposing. Do whatever you want.

[Andresvmb]

And all of this is aside from the fact that saving a town pr just to let a buddy die on d1 is fucking stupid as scum.

I'm either a wily scum player or an idiot.
Fucking pick one.

Where did I even try to argue that you did this? Please point it out.

[Andresvmb]

how many games have you been in since getting back, house? it would take me 5 minutes to read one (1) page of an iso of a game i'm not familiar with, assuming i skim over large posts. i don't know how much of a fast reader andres is, but the claim that something like that can be verified in "5 minutes" is laughable.

How many large* posts have I ever made?

I make a lot of posts, but I wouldn't say I make any large ones.

Show me one chaotic play I've made as scum since 2016. One.

I’m NOT going to look through your games since 2016. Who has the time? What kind of ridiculous argument is this?

Show me one game I placed a tepid vote on a Scum Partner since I started playing mafia multiple years ago. One.

[Andresvmb]

Where did I even try to argue that you did this? Please point it out.

I FUCKING SAVED IV ON D1 AND YOUR BUDDY LAP GOT LIMMED.

YOU’RE NOT FUCKING READING. I have not even attempted to make the case that you’re actually Scum. I’m absolutely bashing your shit argument that meta should totally exclude you from being considered Scum here. I totally agree that your objective play, making a claim as Mason that protected IV and ultimately helped usher in Laplacian’s execution, and then claiming to be Vig so that you could hide the true Vigilante, are very unlikely to come from Scum. Where did I say otherwise? You’re getting all annoyed because one argument you’re putting forth is being challenged as garbage, which it is, and you’re not actually reading what I’m writing.

[Andresvmb]

This is beyond absurd. I have zero interest in solving the game because I won’t read every game you’ve been in since 2016? Never mind that even if I actually did want to engage in the torture of reading every game you’ve been involved in, regardless of how many games they are, I couldn’t make definitive statements about your meta because we haven’t played enough together and you, by your own admission, have a limited universe of games to begin with.

[Andresvmb]

This is beyond absurd. I have zero interest in solving the game because I won’t read every game you’ve been in since 2016? Never mind that even if I actually did want to engage in the torture of reading every game you’ve been involved in, regardless of how many games they are, I couldn’t make definitive statements about your meta because we haven’t played enough together and you, by your own admission, have a limited universe of games to begin with.

Too many, or not enough?

Stay married to that agenda, though!

Why are you so fucking obtuse? You’ve played in more than 2 games I take it since 2016? Okay, I don’t have time to read more than 2 games to make an individual call about one slot in one game. I don’t sufficiently care to do that, have never done that, and I’m not starting now. How many games do you think it would take for folks to actually make broad claims about your meta? Probably more than 5, and perhaps closer to 10, no? If you don’t even have that many games as Scum, this conversation is pointless. And your way of arguing is ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12462559

I have probably sworn off makign broad claims about anyone’s meta after this game and this bitter fight with Noraa. Go ahead, read it. Tell me I have never done what I’m doing now or that my claims are all baseless.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not a meta junkie, anybody that knows me at all knows that.

Andres is, but it's actively ignoring mine because he knows it undermines any attempt he could possibly make at scumreading me, and trying to justify it by telling me to read HIS meta when that's not a tool I use except in very limited circumstances on very few players.

Why are you so intent on misstating what I’m saying? And since when am I a meta junkie? I’ve played with Datisi many times now, I have had to scrutinize them repeatedly as Town and them Scum, and I have a more solid feel for what I think I should be expecting from them specifically. Same goes for Koba. What I haven’t done and you seem to want to imply that I do this a lot, is use past games from players that I’m not familiar with, to make statements about their alignment in the present game based on common threads I’m perceiving. I tried to do that with Noraa in that game I referenced, and failed miserably. I have not done it since. This is the distinction you’re not grasping. I will use my own personal experience with players I have played with repeatedly to try to make sense of what I’m perceiving in a game, but I will always defer to the content of the game itself when making a final judgment.

I’m not arguing this anymore.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not arguing this anymore.

Good. Repeating your agenda doesn't improve its credibility.

Proving you don’t understand basic logic doesn’t improve your standing either.

[Andresvmb]

I’m sorry I should have put this before - I’m VLA until tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Look guys here’s where I’m at. I’m stuck voting for Frogsterking because (i) of their horrendous hammer of Skitter, (ii) their clear attempt at rushing IV’s execution, (iii) their convenient positioning in the game, and because (iv) even though they seem to be convinced that Datisi is Scum, and have made definitive statements about how Datisi’s supposed lying is Scum indicative and should be punished for example, they continued to vote for me. That’s a survivalist attitude that speaks volumes. That last point sits on top of everything else that Frogsterking has already done that has been debated to death. If Frogsterking was truly a Town slot playing to their sincerely held beliefs, they would have switched their vote already and argued forcefully for the person they seem most convinced is Scum. They’ve built a narrative around my slot and how everything I’ve said spews certain players Town for example, but that just looks to me like Scum working backwards towards a solve that keeps them in the game.

[Andresvmb]

I think Frogsterking absolutely needs to get executed. I understand perfectly why I’m sitting in the POE and I don’t think the logic is crazy. And if this is wrong, please shoot me so I don’t have to deal with this anymore. At the end of the day my vote is not going to change, and my perspective is being reinforced by how the votes are shaking out. Until we see what Frogsterking flips, I don’t see the value in digging through Datisi and Mathblade’s back and forth, or Datisi’s constant posts where they’re having to defend themselves from what really do seem to me like baseless and over the top accusations. Not in the same week I’ve had to work overnight for two days. I’m a slow and meticulous reader so if folks are willing to give me enough time to really dig through everything, I can, but at this point in time it really does feel like a drag.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m sorry you’re unimpressed with my play @House. I’m not impressed by you insisting on voting Town but you don’t see me harping about it every third post. This assumption that everyone has to spend multiple hours playing Mafia all the time is obnoxious. Even when I have, did you even listen to what I’ve said? Because you’re stubborn to the point where you clearly don’t care what anyone else does - if they disagree with you, they’re probably Scum and can die.

[Andresvmb]

I just wanted to make sure I got that out because I’m still having to go back to work and I’m exhausted.

[Andresvmb]

also i gotta say i don't think i'm seeing scum!math as much as i was in early day 3 so idk

the jury is still out, i just felt like pointing this out

LOL

VOTE: Datisi

@andres

Wait okay that’s interesting.

[Andresvmb]

also i gotta say i don't think i'm seeing scum!math as much as i was in early day 3 so idk

the jury is still out, i just felt like pointing this out

LOL

VOTE: Datisi

@andres

Wait okay that’s interesting.

They kept their vote on me for the longest time so I was certain they were never going to move because why would you in that situation as Scum? The answer is you wouldn’t. But I had totally missed that they had moved and that actually is a bit surprising. That doesn’t quite make sense unless they’re sensing so much resistance to get me executed that they’ve decided you’re an easier sell.

[Andresvmb]

not sure i would agree with me being an easier sell than you.

Yeah that’s the point.

[Andresvmb]

I’m sorry about yesterday - I really am. I’m sad that Frogsterking not only replaced out, but went out in such a way. I don’t fault Nero Cain for self-hammering, since they were pushed to the extreme and I wouldn’t have wanted to spend too much time and effort trying to turn around the wagon on me at that stage.

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking. I also don’t want to think too hard about Mathblade being Scum. Yeah sure, at times during the game I have wanted to reconsider my stance on this. But I can’t at this point in time go against what I really do think is a strong probability that they’re cleared, and lose due to extreme paranoia.

That leaves House / Aristeia / Datisi. If you wanted to build a Team from those three, I suppose a Datisi + Aristeia Team is more likely than a House + Datisi or House + Aristeia Team. But I gotta be honest, I’m annoyed at that solve. That means what, Aristeia and Datisi have been openly buddying each other as Scum practically the entire game, and refusing to strongly consider each other? It didn’t read like that to me when I first read through their posts. Datisi has also had me as Town a large majority of the game (despite us both being firmly in the POE). That would have had to have been White Knighting, which maybe? But it wasn’t necessary. Datisi could have stayed away from making any definitive statements about my alignment, and they certainly didn’t have to call the fight between Frogsterking and I TvT (leaving themselves open to then getting pushed). Now, I perceived yesterday that openly questioning the Gunsmith was a silly strategy from Scum. Today? I would imagine it feels necessary to have to try and open that door. So I’m not reading Aristeia’s comments in that direction in a positive light. That’s the first slot I will do a deep dive on.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking.

This line feels nonsensical to me because IV has not helped to guide our thinking at all this game.

This is not a nonsensical line if you actually understood what I meant (which obviously you could have asked about). Math has basically said a variation of this today as well, but you’re not accusing them of saying something nonsensical. That line doesn’t mean to say that IV has guided the Town this game

in previous days

. It just means that we should listen to them

today

.

Anyway, I’ll vote whatever Math + IV conclude is the right call then. That includes voting for myself if that’s the decision that’s arrived at. I haven’t read what I wanted to yet - but I did feel like I needed to respond to this nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking.

This line feels nonsensical to me because IV has not helped to guide our thinking at all this game.

This is not a nonsensical line if you actually understood what I meant (which obviously you could have asked about). Math has basically said a variation of this today as well, but you’re not accusing them of saying something nonsensical. That line doesn’t mean to say that IV has guided the Town this game

in previous days

. It just means that we should listen to them

today

.

Anyway, I’ll vote whatever Math + IV conclude is the right call then. That includes voting for myself if that’s the decision that’s arrived at. I haven’t read what I wanted to yet - but I did feel like I needed to respond to this nonsense.

Why would you be willing to vote yourself?

It’s simple - I want to win. But I also understand that I can’t do what Frogsterking did. I can’t sit here and pollute the thread and kick and scream to avoid my execution for a loss (which has never happened at this stage of the game before) if both of the voices I think are far more likely to be Town are pushing in that direction. It is not realistic. I’m in the POE. My voice and arguments are going to be considered, but not fully taken at face value. For good reason. And I don’t want to use emotional arguments to defend my standing in the game.

[Andresvmb]

So if you and IV end up both thinking I’m the correct vote for today after thinking through it, then I don’t have the time to argue with the both of you. So you have to do your homework. The solution from my perspective seems somewhat straightforward. It sucks because I’ve defended both Aristeia and Datisi and now I’m having to completely reset my view of the game and try to argue against something I actually believed in for days. So it’s not like this is a fun exercise for me.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll state the obvious - a No Execution here is not sensible. Due to the mechanical claims that we have, it doesn’t make sense to No Vote only to lose the remaining claimed PR left. We need IV’s voice to help guide our thinking.

This line feels nonsensical to me because IV has not helped to guide our thinking at all this game.

This is not a nonsensical line if you actually understood what I meant (which obviously you could have asked about). Math has basically said a variation of this today as well, but you’re not accusing them of saying something nonsensical. That line doesn’t mean to say that IV has guided the Town this game

in previous days

. It just means that we should listen to them

today

.

Anyway, I’ll vote whatever Math + IV conclude is the right call then. That includes voting for myself if that’s the decision that’s arrived at. I haven’t read what I wanted to yet - but I did feel like I needed to respond to this nonsense.

Why would you be willing to vote yourself?

It’s simple - I want to win. But I also understand that I can’t do what Frogsterking did. I can’t sit here and pollute the thread and kick and scream to avoid my execution for a loss (which has never happened at this stage of the game before) if both of the voices I think are far more likely to be Town are pushing in that direction. It is not realistic. I’m in the POE. My voice and arguments are going to be considered, but not fully taken at face value. For good reason. And I don’t want to use emotional arguments to defend my standing in the game.

I don't believe you're town.

If we mislim today, game over.

You're saying this because you know the game won't end with your death.

House you’ve been arguing the same thing over and over this whole game. I am too tired to have this debate with you, and I don’t care what you think. Oh it’s game throwing therefore it’s coming from Scum. Yeah because Scum operate that way. Like what?!

You know what’s really easy for me to do as Scum here? Just shut up and push a slot in the POE rather mindlessly, and not engage in any other speculation. I have given you a complete view of the game, why, and what I need to do to ensure that I’m not ignoring any blind spots. Just you do you and I’ll do me and if it wins, great. I’m not going to fight like I did with Pooky only to have to take a breather for two weeks again.

[Andresvmb]

So if you and IV end up both thinking I’m the correct vote for today after thinking through it, then I don’t have the time to argue with the both of you. So you have to do your homework. The solution from my perspective seems somewhat straightforward. It sucks because I’ve defended both Aristeia and Datisi and now I’m having to completely reset my view of the game and try to argue against something I actually believed in for days. So it’s not like this is a fun exercise for me.

Well then let’s talk about it for a second.

On D2 and D3 I pushed Ari/Datisi for a good portion of those days.

What do you think happened there?

If you think about it strategically, the Frogsterking slot needed to die to arrive at a situation where the Scum had a shot at winning the game at this stage. Frogsterking was a massive proponent of having Datisi executed, and switched their view of the game to argue against Aristeia. That clearly was a huge issue for the Team. Because Frogsterking was pushing me hard and that was probably okay for a bit, but then once Frogsterking sort of switched their perspective, they were buried.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not sure what you’re asking then. Rephrase the question.

[Andresvmb]

Like what is it that you want my perspective on? Whether Datisi and Aristeia’s reactions to your push D2/D3 conclusively point anywhere? Because if you’re asking me why I didn’t listen to you when you were arguing for their heads, the answer is because I’m stubborn, and I thought you were being stubborn.

[Andresvmb]

What do you make of those events?

I’ll focus on what you’re describing as Aristeia’s reaction first, because I think that one is most important.

Derision is a powerful defensive tool. Making you feel like you’re silly and therefore wrong is an excellent way of getting you to reevaluate without having to do too much work. Now, I think Datisi and to a lesser extent Aristeia have put a lot of effort into the game. Which is why I want to be careful here. I mean this specifically in that if you don’t think you can constructively engage with another person’s POV, instead of spending a tremendous amount of time trying to convince them to look at the game in the way you want or need them to, you sideline them. Town do this too though. So that isn’t specifically a way to sort them. Look at how Koba plays as Town generally, and even here.

The point? No one individually regardless of alignment is going to roll over and simply agree with you that they’re Scum. And deriding your argument against them is just a way we can all react, especially out of frustration. Aristeia for example was clearly frustrated with you at times, and made some really incisive comments about how you’ve screwed up before and refuse to change. I would be careful to rely on that for a conclusion.

[Andresvmb]

I think if me/dats are scum together we probably just elim andres yesterday instead of fighting frogster? it seems much easier and cleaner of a kill

Don’t you need Frogsterking dead anyway? This is just not true. Alternatively I could have pushed you or something and that would have been easier for me too. If you want to argue what’s easier, any one of us going against Frogsterking wasn’t the way to go, clearly. It’s not like I didn’t face a constant barrage of nonsense from them.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not like amazing at scum or anything but I usually take the easiest path available to me.

I don't burn towncred to push someone who's already townreading me ? Like what's even the point?

You do realize that Frogsterking started arguing against me hard only as a result of me pushing them first right? They even tried to discount how OMGUS’y they were being, and immediately used my arguments against them to form a wrong view of the game. So aren’t you answering your own question? Wouldn’t it have been easier for me to try and pocket them, sit back, and watch them push whatever else?

[Andresvmb]

VP inno'd A50 (which we now know is legit), of course he was the nk.

am i insane for thinking that baltar might be the nightkill and the outworld kill might be a vig shot? because it's either that, or baltar died visiting someone last night, and scum killed outworld, and like... i don't know why scum kills outworld there...

Wait seriously. I assumed right away VP lied about the inno and was the vig kill and OutworldER was the NK because scum read OutWorldER as pr. Sorry dats I guess you weren't insane for wondering (unless I am also insane.)

RTP said andres is supposed to be good in the endgame and gets fearkilled a lot and andres is wrong here so I'm just going to OMGus him.

VOTE: andres

I don't really buy his argument that he sees a scum motivation in those posts of mine he links, I think I look pretty townie aside from the skitter hammer.

VOTE: Andresvmb

You’ve been wrong all game and continue to be wrong.

@Frogsterking - I don’t think you’re Scum for OMGUS’ing me (I’m well beyond believing that only Scum do that), but your rationale for pushing me is absurd.

Like right here.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not like amazing at scum or anything but I usually take the easiest path available to me.

I don't burn towncred to push someone who's already townreading me ? Like what's even the point?

You do realize that Frogsterking started arguing against me hard only as a result of me pushing them first right? They even tried to discount how OMGUS’y they were being, and immediately used my arguments against them to form a wrong view of the game. So aren’t you answering your own question? Wouldn’t it have been easier for me to try and pocket them, sit back, and watch them push whatever else?

I don't understand this.

I'm saying it's fairly trivial for me as scum to simply let Frogster join SS/House and push you to death.

I don't really need to push frogster as he is townreading me.

I wasn’t in Frogsterking’s radar until I started pushing them. You’re saying you can just sheep them and push me over the edge. Okay, perhaps that’s true in a vacuum, but that would also apply to me too. I was also TR’ing you pretty strongly, and said so. So you probably don’t want me dead there just yet.

My Scum game has previously been described as somewhat shitty by other players, so not sure why you’re assuming I wouldn’t take the path of least resistance or wholesale avoid having a debate with a loud as shit player as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Like I'm saying me/dats if we are scum together as you say we are, we would just sheep frogster and push you dead yesterday because you are much easier path, barely there, and frogster thinks you are scum and there's two votes on you already not counting me/dats/frogster.

Your counterpoint seems to be "ok well then what about me pushing frog? I could easily not push frog too!" but that doesn't answer "who would you push in that position?"

You’re asking me a question I can’t fully answer. You’re asking me to exactly guess the motivation you might have had for not pushing me yesterday when I was most vulnerable. Not looking completely awful twice in a row after voting for Skitter might have been a motivation if I get executed earlier in the day, particularly if it would take you going back on your read.

[Andresvmb]

Like I'm saying me/dats if we are scum together as you say we are, we would just sheep frogster and push you dead yesterday because you are much easier path, barely there, and frogster thinks you are scum and there's two votes on you already not counting me/dats/frogster.

Your counterpoint seems to be "ok well then what about me pushing frog? I could easily not push frog too!" but that doesn't answer "who would you push in that position?"

You’re asking me a question I can’t fully answer. You’re asking me to exactly guess the motivation you might have had for not pushing me yesterday when I was most vulnerable. Not looking completely awful twice in a row after voting for Skitter might have been a motivation if I get executed earlier in the day, particularly if it would take you going back on your read.

I mean your point that you're making is that you have an easier person to push than frogster but I don't really see who you could push other than frogster yesterday and who would be easier for you?

Actually I’m not the one making that point. You were. I argued against who I thought was Scum. Frogsterking was quite obviously over the top and difficult to engage with. You can’t possibly argue in the same breath that I took the easy route instead of pushing literally anyone else except maybe House by pushing Frogsterking, and then say that you arguing against Frogsterking was you taking the hard road. Do you see my problem with your argument?

[Andresvmb]

I am saying for me, it is much easier to push you yesterday because you are mostly inactive, you have 2 votes on you, and you have 2 votes on you(house,ss) and frogster was also susp of you. It is a layup for me/datisi to push you and kill you yesterday.

That same path does not exist for you because you can't kill yourself.

Hence why your "i can do the same thing" defense is quite bad?

I’m not defending myself by arguing I can’t push myself - that’s quite obvious. You’re twisting what I’m saying. I concede that pushing Frogsterking yesterday is harder than pushing me. No denying that’s the case, particularly given the votes that I had on me. But you get to do two things now: you get to argue that I didn’t have any other choice (and do you really believe this?), and you get to say exactly what you’re saying now. But that’s if you reduce the Scum motivation to simply looking for the easiest path to executing Town in the short run, and never looking at the big picture. This is obviously not the case, and it wouldn’t be the case with a Team that contained you or Datisi. I’m an easier push yesterday, but I’m also an easy push today. I’m still in the POE, I haven’t been super active, and House has been constantly tunneling me. If you take me out yesterday, perhaps other players look worse than you do. But you have to contend with House reevaluating, and being left with having to push exactly Frogsterking today. And that’s probably a more annoying prospect than pushing me now.

[Andresvmb]

It’s 1:30am and I’m working tomorrow. I’ll be back later. Just ping me if you want any questions answered. I’ll still try and ISO Aristeia just to be sure I’m not insane.

[Andresvmb]

I think there's a noticeable difference in overall lack of engagement and I'm not sure he ever really just gives up and says he will sheep conftown - it feels like something anti-spewy.

Did you actually read the games or just skim through them? This is a serious question. First of all, I find it kind of shocking that you would argue I’m “giving up”. How have I “given up” exactly?

And have you actually never seen me sheep confirmed Town, or are you just saying that to make my play here seem anomalous? Because you are wrong. And are you sure you want to argue that I don’t listen to players I believe are solid Town? I also think dead and confirmed Town voices within a game need to be listened to and properly considered. I have made this point specifically as part of a strategic criticism of Scum having NK’ed me in that game I was wrong about Mathblade. Does that make me Scum?

You’re extrapolating some points that players do recognize about me to make a broader point that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. And it’s completely devoid of context. Let me be specific. You’re basically saying that I act more confident in Endgames typically, that I push my view above everything else, and what, never seek collaboration? Have you seen me interact with other Town players in game in the past? Or are you just assuming? Did you actually read my back and forth with Infinity in Micro 1005 and how that game actually ended (and how defeated I sounded at times), and did you properly capture how poorly my last game played out, and how it might have impacted my way of approaching this game? I can also point to specific instances where I was relatively confident of a read, but looked for strong engagement from other players to ensure I wasn’t going crazy. I clearly don’t just mindlessly push my point of view. Otherwise, even in that game I had perfect reads and only voted for Scum, I probably never move away from Iconeum.

The reality of how this game we’re actually playing is shaking out is that we have two voices that we all can tell will determine the outcome of today (and probably the game in IV + Mathblade), and a third one in House who insists so hard that they’re Town (for what I believe are good reasons) that no one is challenging that but Datisi really. It’s almost like you want me to raise my voice and argue forcefully for something from a position of incredible weakness for no good reason at all. When I fear my reads are going wrong or I’m backed into a corner with little influence, I can lash out yes, but at times I can also accept defeat. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to win. The funny thing is, you’re doing it too (by telling Mathblade that you’re fine with losing provider they try their best). It means I’m not letting the game affect me to the point I need to feel real anger. My argument with Pooky in my last game was personal, deeply infuriating, and it almost made me want to walk away from this forum. That’s all true, you can read it for yourself. I am looking to avoid that sort of thing happening again. I’m not going to start bashing House repeatedly over their garbage just to win one game anymore. House is entirely responsible for their read and that kind of shit doesn’t work.

[Andresvmb]

the more I reread Andres previous town!games the more I think he might have finally rolled mafia this game - he is lacking a lot of the conviction I've seen town!him have even when completely wrong in games; also it feels like he doesn't particularly want to be here?

Like this is so broad strokes and meaningless, I don’t know why you’re using it to form a read at all. Even when completely wrong I’m super confident? You really haven’t bothered to actually read my posts. I constantly caution about the quality of my early reads. I tend to repeatedly inject uncertainty in my answers because I don’t want people to think I have all the answers. Because I don’t. I have only once in all of the games I have played on this forum called for someone’s head in caps and with no room for ambiguity. In one of the games you quoted, I had a really long case about T3, detailing read progressions that didn’t make sense, and constantly questioning their standing. I’m sure Datisi remembers because they were Partners. Did you see where my vote ended that day? Not on T3. Why? Because I ended up questioning myself too much and I ended up being disarmed when they admitted my suspicion of their slot made sense. We lost that game in a landslide because I was NK’ed and the game had 4 Scum and was horrible unbalanced, but the point being that you arguing that I always argue with confidence is total hogwash.

[Andresvmb]

^horribly unbalanced*

[Andresvmb]

So this idea that sounding a certain way means I’m Scum is a total manipulation of my meta, and nonsense. It’s like you want to criticize me constantly for things you are doing this game too also, in ways that don’t make sense, and not really focused on some of the facts within the game. And I don’t have the time nor the inclination to engage in a long back and forth over stuff in a game I haven’t spent enough time reading. That’s just what it is. You can clearly see I refrain from pushing reads aggressively in other games when I’m behind. Why aren’t you bringing that up? Because it’s not convenient. You can ask Datisi - they know this is true.

[Andresvmb]

If you want to criticize my errors when reading Frogsterking, by all means and we can talk about that. I clearly should have considered their vote movement more carefully before leaving my vote there. And if you want to express suspicion of my activity level, by all means. This has been clearly attacked before and the conclusion really should be that it’s not AI, but I don’t think that’s crazy either. Which is why House’s argument that they don’t trust a player that hasn’t pushed a point of view until endgame to be reasonable. That makes sense to me. This meta push you’re making - I find it to be totally shocking.

[Andresvmb]

It’s simple - I want to win. But I also understand that I can’t do what Frogsterking did. I can’t sit here and pollute the thread and kick and scream to avoid my execution for a loss (which has never happened at this stage of the game before) if both of the voices I think are far more likely to be Town are pushing in that direction. It is not realistic. I’m in the POE. My voice and arguments are going to be considered, but not fully taken at face value. For good reason. And I don’t want to use emotional arguments to defend my standing in the game.

mmm. andres, have you ever really given up like this as town? i think i recall at least one towngame of yours where in late-game you were acting much more arrogant (for a lack of a better word) and saying how you were never executed on this forum and how you're not giving up and things like that. and, i recall a game where you commented how scum!you is easy to lose interest later on (or something along those lines, it was almost a year ago i haven't gone back to check exactly). am i wrong in any of these assessments?

And why are you falling for this nonsense? I’m not giving up - if Mathblade and IV both vote me, do you really think House and the rest of you aren’t going to follow? Why are you asking me to argue out of an impossible situation? If we lose because certain players have read me wrong, and I’m actually executed for the first time, what exactly should I be doing you think? The POE we have is tiny, and I’m in it. You both seem to be softing that I make sense as the execution, House has been wanting me dead for forever, and I don’t have a clue where IV’s head is at. If they start pushing me too, what do you honestly believe I should do here? Scream as to why my vote for Laplacian never comes from Scum me? I’m trying to buy some time so I can do what I do best - actually read Aristeia carefully.

And I am confident, most of the time. I can even come across as arrogant. That’s all true. But not when I’ve been consistently wrong and my reads have proven to be bad. Why are you not adding that caveat? You can clearly tell in games I have made a lot of mistakes, I stop pushing hard. And when the game begins to validate what I’m seeing, I gain in confidence and influence. It depends. There’s no absolute about any of it. No one plays the same all the time. And do you seriously think I’m losing interest here?

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I really do think Aristeia is Scum here. I was reading their ISO - I’m finding some items to be just incredible. Most importantly, I’m hating how Aristeia reacts to events

after the fact

. I think that’s the biggest giveaway. They put a vote down for Skitter, never really even deviated from that read much while Skitter was alive (though they did hedge by throwing out a line about how some aspects of Skitter’s ISO could be seen as Town indicative), but after Skitter was executed, expressed their annoyance at how quickly that execution occurred and how they weren’t around to talk with them more (despite the fact that they didn’t think they would ultimately have changed their mind). I know you did the same to some extent, but it wasn’t as performative, which should really raise an eyebrow.

Also, take a look at Aristeia’s reactions around mechanical arguments in real time versus after when the flip happens. Look at Aristeia’s posts around VPB and A50. Particularly remembering the context that Aristeia SR VPB (see 1454). Aristeia openly questioned the possibility that VPB was changing their mind on A50 due to mechanics (which is what it was, see 1451) and not a read. But then look at the reaction after VPB flips around 2321. It’s a certainty, and totally obvious. Okay, but then why didn’t you SR Datisi for making the same point you were making after the fact in real time for example? And isn’t that a doozy? aren’t you saying Scum figured out it was a Weak Modifier claim, and NK’ed it? How does that not raise suspicions against those that argued it was a switch driven by mechanics? Aristeia’s insistence on TR’ing Datisi throughout the entire game and only somewhat switching now just seems so convenient to me too. Like the play has lost its utility. I’m beginning to think an Aristeia + Datisi Team doesn’t really make sense. Otherwise, they probably keep the ruse going.

And just to drive the point home, Aristeia has found ways of shading every single possible mechanical play when most convenient (see 2304 against Mathblade, or 2529 against IV). Only the stubbornness of others, or the shrinking POE, has forced Aristeia to reconsider or abandon some of these arguments. I think all of this together is quite damning.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, but then why didn’t you SR Datisi for making the same point you were making after the fact in real time for example?

andres, can you clarify what you're saying here?

If the point was made that the Scum clearly figured out that it was a Weak Modifier claim, and therefore that explains the read change, then how come Aristeia didn’t even ask you why it is that you seemed so certain about the reasoning behind it? I don’t think this is TMI btw - and looking back, I just think you arrived at the right conclusion sooner, that’s all. What I’m hinting at though is that Aristeia has found ways to question everyone about everything (including every aspect of the mechanics or claims around this game), but never even as much as questioned their read on you (until now that is).

[Andresvmb]

They put a vote down for Skitter, never really even deviated from that read much while Skitter was alive (though they did hedge by throwing out a line about how some aspects of Skitter’s ISO could be seen as Town indicative), but after Skitter was executed, expressed their annoyance at how quickly that execution occurred and how they weren’t around to talk with them more

I voted for Skitter on Saturday Morning.

My last post on Saturday night was 8:28 PM, I laid down to take a nap because I was tired.

Skitter entered the thread at 8:39 PM and was hammered in less than three hours; the moderator posted the death scene and locked the thread at 11:45 PM.

I didn't get a chance to even talk to her much less re-evaluate my read on her.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to

expect to talk to her before she gets hammered

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to believe she'd still be alive to talk with me after I woke up.

Saying that is scummy is absolutely gross and disgusting.

Is this what I said? That the expectation was Scummy? You’re again twisting what I’m saying. I never said the expectation that the day wouldn’t have ended there was unreasonable. That’s totally fine. I don’t think anyone outside of Frogsterking who actually hammered there expected the day to end so quickly. In a way, I’m contrasting Math’s reaction to yours. Sure, the day maybe ended quickly. But Skitter was part of your POE established earlier in the game. You couldn’t possibly have been so offended by the fact that they were executed. Yet you posted as if you were. That I find absurd.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, but then why didn’t you SR Datisi for making the same point you were making after the fact in real time for example? And isn’t that a doozy? aren’t you saying Scum figured out it was a Weak Modifier claim, and NK’ed it? How does that not raise suspicions against those that argued it was a switch driven by mechanics?

The scum team knows VPB's alignment. The scum team knows VPB is a investigative TPR. The scum team shot VPB.

I don't see how that raises suspicions against those who are saying in the main thread that it is driven by mech.

When you roll scum and a TPR is that blatant about it do you talk in the main thread a bout how this is mech?

So Scum never openly defend a TPR for Town cred, knowing that if that slot gets pushed to the brink, a simple convincing claim could wipe out the wagon and force a scramble that might land on them? It’s the fact that you didn’t even think about this that makes me think that your read of Datisi was manufactured. You argue that Math for example has a very narrow way of looking at how Scum play. But you almost want to shove everything into your narrative despite having been proven wrong multiple times this game. You claimed repeatedly there was no evidence of a bus and bashed Mathblade for being so rigid. I’m going to agree with you that overall, expecting a Scum wagon to always look a certain way is a bad idea. But Math’s instincts about that particular wagon were on point. And you just kept bashing that until it became blatantly obvious it was the case, and you had no choice but to admit to being wrong there. But of course, very many slots that were Town had flipped by then and so maintaining that didn’t matter anymore. That’s important.

[Andresvmb]

Aristeia’s insistence on TR’ing Datisi throughout the entire game and only somewhat switching now just seems so convenient to me too. Like the play has lost its utility. I’m beginning to think an Aristeia + Datisi Team doesn’t really make sense. Otherwise, they probably keep the ruse going.

This is just how the game works?

You have a list of people that you rank from Townread to Scumread and as you miss people fall from your townreads into your scumreads as the POE gets smaller and smaller.

Look here’s my struggle. You come across to me as extremely competent. I think you’ve made arguments against Mathblade that clearly sound like you understand how to catch Scum. Yet this game, you’ve made very convincing arguments in every wrong direction. So why is that not relevant?

[Andresvmb]

Is this what I said? That the expectation was Scummy? You’re again twisting what I’m saying. I never said the expectation that the day wouldn’t have ended there was unreasonable. That’s totally fine. I don’t think anyone outside of Frogsterking who actually hammered there expected the day to end so quickly. In a way, I’m contrasting Math’s reaction to yours. Sure, the day maybe ended quickly. But Skitter was part of your POE established earlier in the game. You couldn’t possibly have been so offended by the fact that they were executed. Yet you posted as if you were. That I find absurd.

Just because someone is part of my POE does not mean I want the day to end before I get to talk to them.

I am incredibly angry at the people who decided to hard shove skitter dead before I could even talk to her.

Why do you think Town!me would not be upset at not getting to talk to skitter?

It feels fake. You’re incredibly angry? Shit happens. Frogsterking got overly excited. Okay, whatever. For someone who seems to have as much experience as you do, it’s almost like you can’t fathom that any one player would make a mistake. Frogsterking is not even remotely near some of the worst Town play I have actually experienced. I don’t have to even bring it up - I’m sure Datisi will laugh as I say this knowing exactly what I’m talking about. If a quick hammer of Town upsets you, then I imagine you’re constantly upset every time you play Mafia. It doesn’t feel right.

[Andresvmb]

And just to drive the point home, Aristeia has found ways of shading every single possible mechanical play when most convenient (see 2304 against Mathblade, or 2529 against IV). Only the stubbornness of others, or the shrinking POE, has forced Aristeia to reconsider or abandon some of these arguments. I think all of this together is quite damning.

What's your point here?

Are you saying that scum!me decided to shade the mechcleared people in Mathblade/IV in order to get a mass claim that made those same mechcleared people look good for ???? reasons?

Like what's my plan here again?

You might have a point if there were any contested claims or scum fakeclaiming but the way the claims worked how does it even make sense for scum!me to be expressing paranoia of IV/Mathblade? Do you think I can reasonably expect to mislim either of them?

Is that the only reason Scum would ever try and push a mass claim early? C’mon now be realistic. That’s nonsense and you know it. You think the only reason Scum might pursue a mass claim is to make certain players look good? Are you being serious right now?

[Andresvmb]

And you talking about me reaching is crazy after the meta arguments you’re making about me after skimming a few of my games. Like talk about annoying.

[Andresvmb]

And just to drive the point home, Aristeia has found ways of shading every single possible mechanical play when most convenient (see 2304 against Mathblade, or 2529 against IV). Only the stubbornness of others, or the shrinking POE, has forced Aristeia to reconsider or abandon some of these arguments. I think all of this together is quite damning.

What's your point here?

Are you saying that scum!me decided to shade the mechcleared people in Mathblade/IV in order to get a mass claim that made those same mechcleared people look good for ???? reasons?

Like what's my plan here again?

You might have a point if there were any contested claims or scum fakeclaiming but the way the claims worked how does it even make sense for scum!me to be expressing paranoia of IV/Mathblade? Do you think I can reasonably expect to mislim either of them?

Is that the only reason Scum would ever try and push a mass claim early? C’mon now be realistic. That’s nonsense and you know it. You think the only reason Scum might pursue a mass claim is to make certain players look good? Are you being serious right now?

You're saying that I have a scum!motive for shading IV/Mathblade

I'm asking you what it is.

I’m saying it’s blatantly obvious what it is. I don’t know why you’re pretending there isn’t an obvious reason as to why Scum would shade a mechanical claim or argument. There’s two main reasons I can think of off the top my head as to why Scum shade PR claims or mechanical clears. Mechanics narrow down the POE. They eliminate options. Scum need options for mis-executions to win. Casting doubt upon those claims widens the POE. If the claim is also somewhat unclear from a Scum perspective, pushing that slot to the edge clarifies the answer. It makes it very clear what the underlying role actually is. Look at VPB. They seemed to be relying on a convoluted reason that they claimed outright cleared A50 / Mathblade. I think there’s real value in narrowing down exactly what the reasoning was behind that change of perspective from a Scum POV. Shading the slot would narrow that down.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I’ll be putting a vote down soon - I think I’m ready. I’ve read through the game and I’ve made my arguments, and I’m comfortable with where I’m going to land.

@Math, I can’t give you feedback on how you’ve played the game or on anything really until the game is over and we’ve figured out whether the solve is correct. Because I think I’m not going to feel like I’m in any position to give you feedback if I’ve been fighting the wrong slots throughout. How could I?

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I’ll be putting a vote down soon - I think I’m ready. I’ve read through the game and I’ve made my arguments, and I’m comfortable with where I’m going to land.

what are your thoughts between me and house? link if you spoke about it.

I’m not seeing a Team of you + Aristeia. So I think House is more likely. But I’m going to be honest - I want the more obvious Scum first. I literally made this mistake last game I was in, and I’m not making it again. The idea should be to take out the Scum we’re collectively surer on, and then watch as how the Night develops. Because that might help clarify things. Certain Scum actions could theoretically change what our collective perceptions are for the following day that might change the final solve. If I had pushed through with the Scum that was a surer bet last time, the NK would have opened up my eyes to the correct conclusion. So I’m trying to get through one at a time, but yeah that’s where I’m at.

I’ll also point out the obvious - House put three votes down today. By necessity, one of those votes is on Town. That’s careless by any standard.

[Andresvmb]

And of course, House never voted for Aristeia. But they did vote for Math which after making a point about how they would have instavoted whoever else was left with them two, seems like a giant red flag.

[Andresvmb]

I find the argument that you @Datisi would probably not have made that early argument against Laplacian like that more convincing that House’s constant insistence that this is far removed from their Scum meta and that they wouldn’t claim Mason or Vig or whatever.

[Andresvmb]

And I have been generally struggling with the idea that the POE really should be just us three because I’ve been reading you as Town Datisi and I just felt wrong trying to argue anything else in my head. It’s why I never have put that argument forward today - I fundamentally didn’t believe in it.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I do feel like we have more time to discuss stuff if we have to. I’m around to answer questions as I see them. Just ping me if you need anything specific.

[Andresvmb]

But I’m going to be super busy over the next two days (I have an important work project happening tomorrow afternoon I need to prepare for).

[Andresvmb]

I find the argument that you @Datisi would probably not have made that early argument against Laplacian like that more convincing that House’s constant insistence that this is far removed from their Scum meta and that they wouldn’t claim Mason or Vig or whatever.

i mean, both are self-meta.

the thing is, andres, while i do understand the idea of voting the surer scum first (that whole endgame was a bit painful to watch, with scum openwolfing and all that), it also gives you a nice out for "haha yeah i am sure on ari and i am not gonna solve much of anything else!!" which yeah.

you did present a case on ari, but i feel like a lot of your time was spent arguing with ari (and with arguments i'm not sure i find ai either way) as opposed to actually presenting why someone is scum or town.

so i guess i want to be a bit more sure you're actually town and solving things. because i know this is only a game-losing vote if andres/house, which like, feels kinda unlikely i think, but i'm not at the point where i feel good enough to vote.

I would disagree that I haven’t presented why Aristeia is Scum. I think I’ve tried to do that if you read my posts carefully. I won’t rehash all of my arguments but I don’t think that’s accurate. And it’s fine if you don’t trust me. I’m not asking you to vote based on your perception of my alignment. At the end of the day, I know what I feel is right here.

[Andresvmb]

With how today has gone, I wouldn’t put much stock in the Team being you @Datisi and Aristeia. I think that’s incorrect. That really leaves a few very narrow solves. If it isn’t just House + Aristeia, something has gone horribly wrong. I have tried multiple times in my head to think through whether Mathblade ever makes any sense here. Do they make sense to you? Because I’m not seeing that ever. And mechanics absolutely forces the exclusion of IV.

I don’t think I’m that horrible that I have every important TR wrong this game. So I’m going with my gut and trusting that I’m not way off about you @Datisi. And if that’s wrong, well then so be it.

[Andresvmb]

But in any case, you make up your mind as to what it is that you want to do. I think voting Mathblade at this stage is a horrible mistake. That’s one vote I’m certainly not making.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back later tonight - I really have to get through the work day.

[Andresvmb]

Well I think the Town has spoken.

@Datisi, any last thoughts, now is the time.

[Andresvmb]

@andres, i'm rereading your iso from today, and i need you to clarify a few things for me when you can.

3790 has you entering the game saying how your tentative solve is dats/ari (granted, you said you weren't sure). 3844 talks about why that team would have to push frogsterking, and 3854 talks more about how that team operates.

then all of a sudden, 3992 is asking me why i'm "falling for the nonsense" (implying i'm town), and 4303 is directly appealing to me on why aristeia is scum. from there on, it seems like you've settled on the team being house/ari.

can you talk a bit on how you came to this conclusion? because the points you raised 4303, where you mentioned part of why you thought a me/ari team doesn't make sense, came almost a full irl day after 3992.

also, in 3790, you mentioned how me/ari feels more likely than house/ari. part of the reason why you didn't like that team was because it would mean me/ari were just openly buddying each other for the whole game. weren't house/ari doing a similar thing? and later on, you did say how you thought that my self-meta points (play around lapla) is stronger than house's (the fakeclaims) (4458). when did you come to this conclusion? it wasn't included in your initial post of the day (3790).

Yes, House and Aristeia have been doing some of the same thing. But Aristeia is more blatant with you. The constantly asking if you’re Town? I understand Aristeia has claimed that they like you and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of that. But it just felt more consistent throughout the game. To some extent though, it probably makes sense for the Scum Team not to be so obvious about it unless absolutely necessary.

I changed my mind definitively when I saw that you and Aristeia started to bicker more negatively today, and you seemed to genuinely be leaning towards a vote there, with House openly defending the slot with votes on me, you, and Math. House’s behavior with Aristeia, who is my strongest Scum Read, is precisely what I expect of Partners. What you’ve been doing? Not really. And that coupled with some of the reasons I was leaning Town on you already just make me think I’m not going wrong on you. That’s all. I will say, I do have to discount (as should you) a lot of the activity today, because you could try crazy gambits in a situation like this just to try and coax a wrong vote to win, regardless of what you were actually arguing. But out of you, House, and Aristeia, I like your reasoning and timing for the one flipped Scum in Laplacian the best. That’s the best source of information I have. I maintain that pushing Frogsterking was a necessity to get close to a winning position for Scum, but the entire Team clearly doesn’t have to do it together. For me, that’s important to keep in mind.

[Andresvmb]

It hasn't escaped me attention that someone who's supposed to be great at endgame is happy just sitting back and letting Math pile-drive town into the ground.

Andres is scum, period. Whether his partner is Datisi or Mathblade? Fuck if I know.

You don’t have to take shots at me just because you’re annoyed I’m not going to provide the mis-execution you need. I didn’t personally claim to be “great at Endgame”. In fact, I’ve been constantly referencing a game I royally screwed up, wait for it.. the Endgame. And how have I been sitting back? I don’t post 500 times a game, I never have, and I explicitly said I had an important project at work I was taking care of. Are you accusing me of lying about that?

[Andresvmb]

Somebody else vote Ariesta so I can just end the game.

Fuck this shit. I'm done. The sooner it's out of my subscribed threads, the better.

Like this is absurd if coming from Town. You want people to treat you seriously and then you threaten to vote the supposed Town Read you’re building your entire world view around? Yeah I don’t think so.

[Andresvmb]

Speaking to you when you’re responding like this is not going to be productive, regardless of what I think about your alignment. So let’s just leave it there. I don’t need us to engage in some bitter back and forth for no good reason at all. What needed to be said has been said.

[Andresvmb]

Trying to catch up on this day is so painful. I’m getting really fucking tired of reading all of this nonsense from Aristeia. I don’t have a single issue with a slot trying their very best to play to their win condition and win. But constantly re-litigating an ENTIRELY different game is getting on my nerves. How many different ways can Aristeia say the exact same bullshit? And WHY are we insisting so hard on listening to their CONSTANT whining. Stop filling page after page with this drivel. And why is the go to play around here for Scum to insist on shaming a player for voting for them? So if you do enough AtE, that should really get people off of your case? It’s truly a weakness to fall for this nonsense.

I’m not not Voting what absurd nonsense is this. Stop game throwing.

[Andresvmb]

@Math you’re asking Scum to sell you on a case for a PR. What are you doing dude. And from a slot that has bashed you so hard they put on caps that you suck and should learn how to play. I didn’t sign up for this fucking game so that I could hear nonstop about how much you screwed up in a different game. It doesn’t belong in this thread. This criticism really has gotten really out of hand.

[Andresvmb]

If you need to see a detailed case so you can convince yourself to vote correctly fine I don’t care. But this constant questioning of slots affected by mechanics you’ve seen throughout this game, even against you. I’m stunned.

[Andresvmb]

Literally the only reason I haven’t voted is because I’m at peace with where I’m going to vote, and I’m more than happy to give Datisi as much time as they need to evaluate the game. But c’mon now really? Under no circumstance is it mechanically correct to No Vote. You absolutely know this to be the case.

[Andresvmb]

I have a dinner and some celebrations tonight and I’m going to start getting ready for that, and a lot of stuff happening tomorrow (with the Super Bowl and all that), so expect me to be away for the next few days. If I’m absolutely needed, holler at me and I’ll get to it. But the amount of kicking and screaming from Aristeia is PRECISELY what they themselves said they do as Scum. And you’re letting it get to you Math in the most absurd way.

[Andresvmb]

i am not doing ate

i literally know you are too deathtunneled to change your mind because you play like this shit every game

i am venting because i am beyond tilted at your shit

How can anyone even try to claim this isn’t AtE?! There’s a blatant admission of being emotional, couple with a direct insult to your ability to play the game. Like, how?!

This is gaslighting of the worst kind.

[Andresvmb]

@House, I haven’t read everything, so you’ll have to excuse me if you’ve already explained this, but how can your role only be confirmable N4? And if your solve contained Me + Datisi/IV, why was your vote ever on Mathblade? Like what is the objective of such a vote? Aren’t you risking a straight up loss from your POV if another player that is Town aligned reads what you’re putting out there? And why would you only make these comments at such time as the game has been on the brink for a while with Aristeia for example near execution, with you threatening to “end the game” by hammering Aristeia? Can you understand why anyone would be skeptical of anything you’re writing right now? The exact motivation for punting as Scum with two Confirmed Town is obvious - you eliminate one of them and have their vote and voice silenced at the most opportune time. So I think it’s only sensible that you answer the question as to why your claim should be trusted.

I also don’t understand why instead of trying to work with Mathblade, you’re resorting to practically the same sorts of attacks Aristeia was engaged in earlier today. Don’t you need Mathblade to win the game, based on the POE you’ve put out there? So why are you behaving as if sidelining Mathblade is sensible? This doesn’t make sense from a Town perspective. Or at least from the perspective of a Town player playing purely to their win condition.

[Andresvmb]

can anyone explain to me why an investigative tpr decides to fakeclaim mason on day 1 ?

it feels like nobody is really listening to me unless I scream at them.

They’re not investigative by their own admission.

[Andresvmb]

Also it doesn't actually make any sense for him to think this in regards to house because in his world view he thinks Me/House are the scum team.

He has already stated IV/Mathblade = confmechtown and stated he thinks Datisi can't be teamed with me.

You are analyzing my play by making a few fundamental errors but I’m not surprised about that. The embedded assumption here is that I am 100% certain that the Scum Team is You + House. It’s almost like you would rather I ignore all additional evidence or arguments being pushed around (or not even question them while trying to stay objective), so that you can make an argument that I am trying to buddy Math. If you factored in that I am not 100% certain about a strict solve, your argument quickly falls apart. And what makes you think I should mindlessly push my solve and not ask any additional questions? If House is hinting at a potential role heavily in MElo, would you rather I mindlessly scream it’s bullshit? You’re making an argument that doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

3 votes is a hammer on yeet in 6p

I haven't made an allowance for this in this rules so I'm going to say no elimination isn't hammered until there are 4 votes.

Not that I agree with House on much, but I do think this is an error. No Execution should be hammered at 50%. It’s always been the case.

[Andresvmb]

can anyone explain to me why an investigative tpr decides to fakeclaim mason on day 1 ?

it feels like nobody is really listening to me unless I scream at them.

They’re not investigative by their own admission.

I am talking about innocent villager who claimed mason and is now claiming to be an even night gunsmith.

why would a player who is a town investigative role decide to fake claim mason on day 1?

fake-claiming mason is what you do when you try to draw nightkill as a VT or Bulletproof or Commuter.

an investigative TPR does not want to get nightkilled.

I can’t speak for IV, but this is wrong. IV didn’t claim anything, House did. House can correct me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that House claimed Mason to save IV, give them a chance to stay in the game since they read them as Town and didn’t think IV had settled in properly or whatever. We know IV is Even-Night Gunsmith. So, IV is being protected from execution by House’s claim, which lets them actually use their role, right? Why would they dismantle the claim made by House? It’s like you don’t think logically, just whatever fits a narrative you have in your head. Assume the opposite universe - IV actually states that House is full of shit, it’s not true. At worst, they get executed right then and there. At best, maybe House gets shot (and not them), the claim is revealed to be nonsense, and they get to use their ability N2 if they don’t get executed the next day. Which one is better?

I can’t speak for IV or the exact motivation, but your story clearly doesn’t match the actual facts. If IV had claimed Mason on their own with House, and House had gone along with it, then this would have legs. But that’s not what actually happened.

[Andresvmb]

3 votes is a hammer on yeet in 6p

I haven't made an allowance for this in this rules so I'm going to say no elimination isn't hammered until there are 4 votes.

Not that I agree with House on much, but I do think this is an error. No Execution should be hammered at 50%. It’s always been the case.

If you fundamentally believe this to be the case, hammering it on principal since it's currently sitting at 50% is completely justifiable.

I’m catching up. Once I’m done posting I will. I do think this is a Mod error.

[Andresvmb]

House can correct me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that House claimed Mason to save IV, give them a chance to stay in the game since they read them as Town and didn’t think IV had settled in properly or whatever.

iv confirmed my claim.

I just explained why that makes sense to me. You guys are acting like it was better for IV to get pushed to the brink and be forced to claim D1, instead of going along with your nonsense claim and having that dismantled at some other point in the future after they get to use their role. I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

I don't know why I'm still playing anymore atp

It’s pretty obvious House is full of shit

You me and Datisi broke down why.

If House is confirmable with a night action then he can say what night action.

House I mean I think this is correct. I don’t want to get into an argument with you about this really, but your play doesn’t match what you’re saying. You were openly baiting a hammer on Aristeia. Aristeia themselves didn’t see it as you trying to play chicken, which Math argued as a possibility. How does that make any sense with a role that you have yet to reveal as of right now? Like I can’t square it. You’ve lied too many times this game on mechanics for this to be remotely realistic. And yet you’re asking a lot of us to make the mechanically suboptimal play (which I will do out of pure conviction on fairness) unless we believe that you’re Town and your claim actually checks out. And you don’t want to talk about it! You lied as to you being Mason, you lied about being a Vigilante, and then you further lied about being a VT, and now we’re supposed to take your claim at face value. I can’t for the life of me understand why you think this is reasonable.

[Andresvmb]

House can correct me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that House claimed Mason to save IV, give them a chance to stay in the game since they read them as Town and didn’t think IV had settled in properly or whatever.

iv confirmed my claim.

I just explained why that makes sense to me. You guys are acting like it was better for IV to get pushed to the brink and be forced to claim D1, instead of going along with your nonsense claim and having that dismantled at some other point in the future after they get to use their role. I don’t get it.

Am... I... being included in this critique?

What have I forgotten doing, this time?

Actually that’s more Aristeia who keeps asking the same question over and over to continuously shade IV, and Math who seems to be going along with it.

[Andresvmb]

My solve always includes Andres, I just don't know whether his partner is Dats or iv.

You do know that if I’m Scum with Datisi, the game is over right? Wouldn’t we have hammered Aristeia? Like what are you talking about?

[Andresvmb]

My solve always includes Andres, I just don't know whether his partner is Dats or iv.

You do know that if I’m Scum with Datisi, the game is over right? Wouldn’t we have hammered Aristeia? Like what are you talking about?

You guys didn't post at the same time when Ari was at E-2 that I recall.

I don’t know I would have to check. But if I’m constantly monitoring the thread as Scum, then I think I catch an opportunity to end it with my Partner after Aristeia reaches two votes from other members of Town. If your solve is Datisi + Me, you really need to think hard about whether the game would still be going.

[Andresvmb]

And yet, there's literally nothing for me as scum to gain by pushing the mislim off a day.

The problem is, this isn’t true.

I already indicated I’m voting No Execution. It’s the right thing to do. So let’s get on with it.

VOTE: No Execution

[Andresvmb]

My solve always includes Andres, I just don't know whether his partner is Dats or iv.

You do know that if I’m Scum with Datisi, the game is over right? Wouldn’t we have hammered Aristeia? Like what are you talking about?

You guys didn't post at the same time when Ari was at E-2 that I recall.

I don’t know I would have to check. But if I’m constantly monitoring the thread as Scum, then I think I catch an opportunity to end it with my Partner after Aristeia reaches two votes from other members of Town. If your solve is Datisi + Me, you really need to think hard about whether the game would still be going.

No, I believe that you've been largely disinterested in this game.

Scum tends to be until late game.

It has nothing to do with interest. There were two votes on Aristeia. Do you not agree that if I’m Scum with Datisi, that’s an opportunity for us to win the game? I don’t have to do much more than type out a vote. You’re making it sound like I have to have been actively posting for that to be the case. From what I’ve seen, that’s clearly not true.

[Andresvmb]

My solve always includes Andres, I just don't know whether his partner is Dats or iv.

You do know that if I’m Scum with Datisi, the game is over right? Wouldn’t we have hammered Aristeia? Like what are you talking about?

You guys didn't post at the same time when Ari was at E-2 that I recall.

I don’t know I would have to check. But if I’m constantly monitoring the thread as Scum, then I think I catch an opportunity to end it with my Partner after Aristeia reaches two votes from other members of Town. If your solve is Datisi + Me, you really need to think hard about whether the game would still be going.

No, I believe that you've been largely disinterested in this game.

Scum tends to be until late game.

It has nothing to do with interest. There were two votes on Aristeia. Do you not agree that if I’m Scum with Datisi, that’s an opportunity for us to win the game? I don’t have to do much more than type out a vote. You’re making it sound like I have to have been actively posting for that to be the case. From what I’ve seen, that’s clearly not true.

You can't vote if you're not here.

You weren't posting when Dats was around. Dats wasn't paying when you were around.

It's not conclusive either way.

Yeah fine it’s not conclusive. I don’t know when the votes happened or didn’t happen, I was always going to wait for Datisi to do whatever they needed to do to place my own vote.

[Andresvmb]

I mean, I felt it was obvious that House was full of shit.

I will await IV’s result before I say anything, because I’m somewhat shocked that they’re still around.

[Andresvmb]

Now I know what to do when I want to get NK’ed in a game so I can stop trying - I will straight up lie about my role in the game.

[Andresvmb]

okay, past the initial hatred of my life, what are we left with

if iv is scum who's bullshitting about his no-result, then the town is the disloyal weak nonsense, the n2 vig, and the named townie. this feels... it feels bad.

if iv is town, that means scum has to have some sorta action-stopping power. either ascetic or roleblocker (or something similar to it). if it were ascetic (with ari being it), then scum was betting a lot last night on iv checking ari, which would probably be a bad choice considering he found me the most suspicious.

if there's a blocker in play... we once again go back to our d2 dilemma.

I think that the second option is unlikely. Either IV is Scum, or the Scum acted to stop IV. If IV hit an Ascetic Scum, we’re so unlucky I don’t even want to think about it.

[Andresvmb]

Scum!Me shoots Mathblade 1000 times out of 1000 there.

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance. I probably don’t shoot in the POE, and always shoot one of Mathblade / IV. The fact they’re both here is baffling. If the Scum knew they could neutralize IV, why not shoot Mathblade then? I’m clearly missing something.

[Andresvmb]

his entire iso all of day four was swearing up and down that I'm locktown and eliminating me ends the game and he spent all day insulting you for being a moron for wanting to eliminate me.

Do you really think he wakes up on Day 5 and says "nah that was just for show actually Ari is scum"

Everything House did was a giant show. They said they would vote whoever they ended up with in ELo with Mathblade, and ended yesterday voting for Mathblade prior to the No Execution votes.

[Andresvmb]

his entire iso all of day four was swearing up and down that I'm locktown and eliminating me ends the game and he spent all day insulting you for being a moron for wanting to eliminate me.

Do you really think he wakes up on Day 5 and says "nah that was just for show actually Ari is scum"

Everything House did was a giant show. They said they would vote whoever they ended up with in ELo with Mathblade, and ended yesterday voting for Mathblade prior to the No Execution votes.

okay, past the initial hatred of my life, what are we left with

if iv is scum who's bullshitting about his no-result, then the town is the disloyal weak nonsense, the n2 vig, and the named townie. this feels... it feels bad.

if iv is town, that means scum has to have some sorta action-stopping power. either ascetic or roleblocker (or something similar to it). if it were ascetic (with ari being it), then scum was betting a lot last night on iv checking ari, which would probably be a bad choice considering he found me the most suspicious.

if there's a blocker in play... we once again go back to our d2 dilemma.

I think that the second option is unlikely. Either IV is Scum, or the Scum acted to stop IV. If IV hit an Ascetic Scum, we’re so unlucky I don’t even want to think about it.

If Ari is ascetic scum you realize I really want your head right?

I’m just trying to be objective. It’s not the most likely outcome. You know this too. Sure, it’s possible. But it’s just so unlucky if it’s true. And I don’t think the Scum take a chance like that.

[Andresvmb]

Scum!Me shoots Mathblade 1000 times out of 1000 there.

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance. I probably don’t shoot in the POE, and always shoot one of Mathblade / IV. The fact they’re both here is baffling. If the Scum knew they could neutralize IV, why not shoot Mathblade then? I’m clearly missing something.

Because they think either A> That I miselim Ari
Or B> Think they can win in second elo.

You and I both knew House’s play practically guaranteed they had No Role. I would never have picked there as the NK, and not outside of whichever one of you / IV is telling the truth. So either the Scum are playing a gambit here (and look at the conclusion you ended up with), or they knew they couldn’t be guiltied, and are having a laugh.

[Andresvmb]

Scum!Me shoots Mathblade 1000 times out of 1000 there.

Can you not just rely on this argument? I don’t think you have the greatest incentive to shoot House, other than so you can scream nonstop that you don’t do this and to trust you. So it’s somewhat WIFOMy. It was unclear to me what the hell kind of role House could possibly have if he actually had a role, but a Scum you might not have wanted to take the chance. I probably don’t shoot in the POE, and always shoot one of Mathblade / IV. The fact they’re both here is baffling. If the Scum knew they could neutralize IV, why not shoot Mathblade then? I’m clearly missing something.

if mathblade is town and deathtunneled on me!town why would scum ever shoot mathblade?

They’re not deathtunneled on you. And why didn’t I just try and vote you out yesterday? I could have voted you, baited House to hammer you, and then won the game no? What was I waiting for then?

[Andresvmb]

A lot of the play is colored by how many TPRs you think there will be in this game.

However if IV/Mathblade are both town, that means not a single scum player fake-claimed TPR.

How often does that actually happen in a game?

You guys all stated yesterday that no elim would lead to a kill no the "mech-clears" however look at today - niether "mech-clear" died - a result that you say is highly surprising - yet niether mechclear is pushing the other

So what are you suggesting?

[Andresvmb]

Why would it be unlucky? Seems very probable.

I think there are four options:

IV town Ari scum => Ascetic scum is most likely here. A roleblock nerfs power too much like Datisi said.
IV town Ari town => This necessitates an even night roleblocker or Jailkeeper or rolestopper. Something of the sort.
IV scum Ari town => Means that IV thought he had an SS miselim but then how does he explain lack of death and a result N4? He wasn’t wagoned then IIRC just one or two suggestions.
IV scum Ari scum => We get a scum either way?

I mean, it’s still unlucky. Not every Scum is Ascetic I’m sure, so you’ve still ended up targeting the one Scum that ruins your role on the one Night that we really needed it.

[Andresvmb]

They’re not deathtunneled on you. And why didn’t I just try and vote you out yesterday? I could have voted you, baited House to hammer you, and then won the game no? What was I waiting for then?

I think everyone here thinks Mathblade is death-tunneled on me.

One reason why you didn't vote for me could be because if you vote for me then it makes you/IV lock-scum from my POV if House doesn't hammer and you suspect he is baiting you.

You didn’t believe this yesterday, so why are you arguing this now? It sure as hell seemed to me like House wanted to end the day.

[Andresvmb]

I can't tell which line in my post you are talking about.

The second paragraph.

[Andresvmb]

I guess I kind of think andres getting pissed at my ate feels kind of townie because I don't think scum him has that reaction to me AtEing at you. Also I kind of think scum him would've voted me already for the win.

Datisi is useless but he's always useless at elo and always wrong so if he's town being wrong about me like the other 2 times that kind of fits I guess.

Like this is what you said yesterday.

[Andresvmb]

Okay well can you both not just go back and forth endlessly? I want to be able to catch up when I have more time and that’s not until later. I need to work.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back.

I don’t understand why @Math you’re calling me disinterested here. I think that if you take a step back and you think about it, I had a toxic Endgame the last game I played, and now I’m starting to see this devolve into whatever this is, and obviously it makes me want to retreat a bit. But it doesn’t mean that I’m not interested in finding the correct solve. I’m just not going to get into a back and forth about what I think should happen.

I don’t know enough about how a particular setup would pass review to really contribute to the conversation on that. But after thinking about it, I think I can at least put forth that if the only Town Power is Weak Fruit Vendor, and a N2 Vigilante / Commuter, and a Named Townie, it seems too strong to have one player on the Scum side be able to stop the Fruit Vendor from operating properly or receiving fake results. So I agree there. Now, based on the vote that we have now, and the claimed No Result from what is certainly a Gunsmith in IV, we know that there’s strictly 1 Scum within Aristeia / IV, and 1 outside. The more obvious Partner for Aristeia in this game given who is left is Datisi, and the more obvious Partner for IV is Mathblade. So I have to believe that Mathblade, who replaced A50, is the beneficiary of a Night Action I fundamentally don’t think is in the game, for me to vote for IV. I don’t see how I end up making that decision. I’m certain IV and Aristeia are not Partners (I think this is blatantly obvious based on what Aristeia has done this game, and today), and Mathblade and Aristeia are bickering too strongly and in ways that I think cannot be thought of as theater (if it is, I would be amazed given the language in some of the posts), so Aristeia has to be specifically partnered with Datisi.

After typing all that out though, I’m a little sad, because I don’t see Datisi’s argument and vote for Laplacian as Scummy in the least (and we would do well to remember that), and over time, the more I read Aristeia’s posts, the more I’m imagining someone who is literally banging their head against the wall trying their hardest to win. There is some real frustration there and I don’t know whether it’s because you’ve been caught and have no other way of confronting the situation, or because you’re Town that is seeing the game slip away.

[Andresvmb]

Not caring for the game isn’t Scum indicative though. That’s what drives some of my frustration with Aristeia. This argument doesn’t work for me. I have been in SO many games with bad Town, I can’t for the life of me see how you make that argument with a straight face.

[Andresvmb]

I am voting for you because you said you wanted to sheep House - a decision that makes no sense if you are trying to win since House hasn't been right about a single damn thing this entire game.

[…]

I am voting for you because the scum shot House - a claimed TPR, probably believing him to be a strong TPR - if they know you are an TPR, they are unlikely to make that kill since House obviously is not a TPR if you are a TPR.

I am voting for you because House wants you dead and said you are likely scum if you survive the night and there's no reason for scum to shoot house if you are town because they are better off leaving house alive to push you today.

[…]

I am voting for you because you conveniently ghosted me last night instead of answering my questions. You did not do the bare minimum of answering questions people have for you, you display no curiosity or solving intent in this thread at all - all of this matches with your scum play where you tend to coast/disappear if you are not under pressure. You re-appearing with some weak AtE right after I vote for you is very convenient in terms of timing.

Finally I am voting for you because I am utterly sick of this game and talking with a certain player in this game. I want this game to be over. I want to take a shower and wash every bad feeling I have about this game away. I am sick and tired of being here. I never knew I could hate playing mafia so much. It's really not great.

and I'll be honest - a large part of this is my fault. I've made many many mistakes this game. Maybe voting you will just be another one of them. We shall see.

I think saying that blaming IV for wanting to sheep House, and then turning around and saying that they want to sheep House now that they’re dead and Confirmed Town, is baffling.

The AtE attack is meh. It’s coming from the player that has engaged in the largest amount of it.

[Andresvmb]

^My English is bad. Eliminate the first saying.

[Andresvmb]

here are some examples:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=88280

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=88427

We’ve already established that I don’t do this sort of meta analysis. You’ve already grossly mischaracterized my Town meta, so there’s also that. I’ll take a look, and I’m sure I’ll find an IV that is far more engaged than whatever this is. But being a TPR can also factor into that. Like find me a game where they’re a power role, and then we can talk. That’s a comparable situation. If they flipped Vanilla in those games, then it’s not apples to apples.

[Andresvmb]

the more obvious Partner for IV is Mathblade

why am i a possible partner to ari but not to iv? and also i'm pretty sure this team ^^ makes no sense since it would BOTH leave town with only having two power roles and have scum be able to block baltar's invest and ruin it, so

You’re really only talking IV, because Mathblade as a Named Townie isn’t much of a threat to any Scum Team you come up with.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is already trying to pivot to the next day if scum. If town I would have expected him to drop an Ari vote right away.

Not sure where you’re getting this from. I don’t rush Endgames, regardless of whether I’m firm in my conviction or not, unless (i) I’m voted or (ii) I absolutely think it’s necessary to win (like in my first game on this forum).

[Andresvmb]

The only options Andres scum has is either bus IV or vote Ari

Considering how hard he has pushed Ari voting IV even though it buys him another day if IV is scum he knows that looks bad the next day

So then it comes to Andres if scum votes Ari here eventually then I decide between the pairings is what realistically happens.

I’m Town. I’m not pivoting to anything. I’m also allowed to think things through and analyze the game. If you’re making this comment about me, you should be making it about Datisi too. Datisi has been dragging a vote both yesterday and today. So not sure why that’s not relevant all of a sudden.

[Andresvmb]

I wish someone had just voted me so I don’t have to do this anymore. Either the game would be over or I get to go 1v1 with Scum. That’s easy enough.

[Andresvmb]

The only options Andres scum has is either bus IV or vote Ari

Considering how hard he has pushed Ari voting IV even though it buys him another day if IV is scum he knows that looks bad the next day

So then it comes to Andres if scum votes Ari here eventually then I decide between the pairings is what realistically happens.

I’m Town. I’m not pivoting to anything. I’m also allowed to think things through and analyze the game. If you’re making this comment about me, you should be making it about Datisi too. Datisi has been dragging a vote both yesterday and today. So not sure why that’s not relevant all of a sudden.

Datisi and Ari have been paired at the hip all game.

I doubt there’s nothing I could say or you could say that makes him vote Ari.

Yeah and that’s been my point. Datisi is getting all upset that all of a sudden I don’t think Datisi and who was it, you are not a potential Team or something? As if that made more sense than a simple Ari + Datisi Team. Any Team with me in it kills either you or IV. This WIFOM argument about leaving both PRs alive is not convincing. And arguing that House was a bad player to sheep after having everything wrong and then trying to sheep House from the dead is funny to me from Ari.

[Andresvmb]

The point about sheeping House has to do with nightkill analysis.

House died stating he wanted to vote for IV - it would be silly for the mafia to nightkill House if IV is town here as House if alive would vote for IV and give the Mafia the win.

That is, unless you believed that House had some sort of role that would allow them to correctly determine who the Scum are, regardless of whatever they stated previously. It’s not like mechanics are the easiest thing to predict, and a Scum Team that knows all of their roles can better ascertain whether a player hinting at a PR makes sense or not. I didn’t believe it for shit, particularly coming from House, but I don’t know what the Scum Team ultimately concluded.

[Andresvmb]

the more obvious Partner for IV is Mathblade

why am i a possible partner to ari but not to iv? and also i'm pretty sure this team ^^ makes no sense since it would BOTH leave town with only having two power roles and have scum be able to block baltar's invest and ruin it, so

You’re really only talking IV, because Mathblade as a Named Townie isn’t much of a threat to any Scum Team you come up with.

sorry, i don't get it, what do you mean by this?

and like, how do you define this post as getting upset? i was asking why you're considering one team but not a different one. is that unreasonable to ask?

I misinterpreted your post. I read it to mean that a Team of you + Ari always shoots between Math and IV. Now that I read it again, I see that you think a Team of IV + Mathblade doesn’t make sense because then there would have to be a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper incorrectly clearing Mathblade, and a Gunsmith amongst the Scum at the same time, and you think that’s absurdly Scum sided. I agree that that Team doesn’t make sense mechanically.

So then the only other option for a Team really is You + IV, which isn’t entirely far fetched I suppose (a Team of you + Mathblade has already hammered for the win, so I’m excluding that). If you felt Laplacian was an easy sacrifice for Town cred, and IV is just playing to their Scum meta and coasting on their role, then perhaps you felt like the only option you had was to buddy the crap out of Aristeia. But if that’s the case, this game is lost, and why am I even bothering? Even if we correctly execute IV here, you drag Aristeia to the end with me, and we lose because Aristeia is always voting me before you.

Well that cheered me up.

[Andresvmb]

so a provable role that also shows alignment that is gated until Night four?

What exactly are you thinking of that fits ?

I knew it was bullshit. Which is why I wouldn’t have shot House. It was clear nonsense, and it would have cost him dearly if I’m Scum because I let him live until today and eat the inevitable execution after they can’t do whatever it is they were thinking of claiming.

[Andresvmb]

Even if we correctly execute IV here, you drag Aristeia to the end with me, and we lose because Aristeia is always voting me before you.

This isn't true

Oh c’mon. Every second post you’re asking Datisi if they’re Town. You ALWAYS vote me before Datisi here.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry I should have said I’m VLA until tomorrow - I’m attending a concert today, and was out drinking last night.

To be totally honest, I think Datisi needs to be more obvious about what they want to do because they’ve been dragging their feet too much. Like I think everyone knows how I’m leaning and this is only dragging so you guys can figure out exactly what you want to do. So yeah, figure it out. I don’t know what else I need to say. Arguments around the NK are not convincing because they’re strategized - the Scum chooses what to do based on the information they have about what will get them closer to victory and they don’t have to make immediate sense to the Town. Constantly yapping about how you wouldn’t do an NK is just white noise to me. I’ve already made clear that I never shoot House because I knew their claim was bullshit but I’m still being thrown around as part of a solution by practically everyone so clearly that doesn’t matter to others, yet I’m supposed to take those arguments seriously. It’s irritating. And now IV thinks I’m more likely than not Scum here. So then my voice doesn’t matter and this game always ends with my execution. So why does anyone even care about my opinion? I’ve been in games where my opinion just gets constantly discarded even when I’m spot on so, I don’t intend to push my POV too hard. Sorry. If you have a specific question about my gameplay, by all means. But at this stage, I’m pretty sure I’m landing on Aristeia, and Datisi just needs to step up and actually vocalize what they’re going to do.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve got so little patience for the style of play that almost makes people feel guilty if they vote for you. Like it’s so manipulative and bad, I can’t stand it.

[Andresvmb]

Dude I’ve given you my opinion. Stop making it sound like I’ve been totally absent and you have no idea where I stand or how I look at things. I don’t find it particularly appealing to repeat myself 100,000 times, arguing the same over and over.

[Andresvmb]

Now I am starting to wish I had been more engaged from the beginning, sigh. Little too late maybe...

Nah actually idk if mafia is really for me anymore idk I'm kind of just not really into just feeling like crap and apologizing for throwing for town whenever I get on. (it's late and I'm just tiredposting)

Somewhat gross to say from a scum who lurker all the way to elo.

This is not a geniune thought - it's a fake emotional appeal.

Like this sort of nonsense is so aggravating already. Enough. The absolute master of emotional appeal this game has got to be Aristeia, and yet they have the nerve of calling out others for “fake emotional appeal”. Dude.

[Andresvmb]

Then put your vote behind it.

If you think Ari is scum vote her.

Then I post again and clear

Datisi votes IV and then boom it’s a 2v2

I want Datisi to act. I was ready yesterday dude. Datisi keeps dragging their feet. You need to applying this pressure there.

[Andresvmb]

^be applying*

[Andresvmb]

On Tuesday I go back to my normal hours again so I'll try to do something tomorrow while I still have the long weekend.

Andres can you remind me why you think I'm town? And why you scumread Aris, for that matter, besides not liking her AtE on a personal level (also is that part of the scumread or just something you don't like)?

I feel like you're just stalling because you don't want to rule out the me/Datisi world when you vote Aris. Also I feel like you'd rather wait for Datisi to vote me so you can just hammer me instead of having to make the first move.

I had reached the conclusion that you’re Town as a derivative of how I’ve been looking at the game, and the mechanical certainty that you’re a Gunsmith, and I think this Town is too weak without your role in play in some fashion. I don’t think there’s a Rolestopper / Jailkeeper on the Scum side, since I agree it’s too strong and makes the game far too Scum sided. But I can’t imagine that the Town only had a Vigilante for 1-Shot basically (with a random Commuter addition that was never going to be used in that situation), a Weak Disloyal Fruit Vendor (who btw, outted and didn’t do much probably anticipating not being the strongest role, and then what, proving to be the main role for Town? absurd), and a Backup that’s gone unused. In part I’m hesitating because I don’t think I’m the strongest player analyzing balance, and I have never been a Mod around here or reviewed a setup. I’ve played a lot of games, so that’s the only way I know what sort of makes sense, and what makes for an un-winnable game for either side. But I don’t think I can definitively say these are the roles that should exist, and these are the roles that cannot exist. Having said that, I don’t think I’m the weakest Town player around either, so I do trust my ability to sort through a setup and think through whether something makes sense.

There’s a few things in this game I don’t understand. I don’t understand why Aristeia and Datisi, who remain in my mind the most likely solve, shoot House. I can’t fully explain that. The problem with arguments about the NK is that they have been made (and are made) for chaos sometimes, or to frame a player, or out of mechanical considerations that are stronger than the impact that player would make as Town. I always remember that in situations like this, you need to make sure all of the Town vote correctly, or you lose. House was the easiest execution today if you had sorted out that they didn’t make any sense having a power role, which most of the players alive hinted at in some fashion. They also seemed very likely to vote for you IV. But if they were wrong about you, and you’re Town, then why not set up that 1v1 and then the Scum just win the game? The most paranoid player I know still left is probably Datisi, and they’re the only player I see concluding that House was actually a PR, and shooting there to avoid any shenanigans with a potential role. That still leaves open the question as to how a potential House role would fit with a Town Gunsmith, but I can’t fully get into that mindset because I knew House was full of shit. And that’s a bit the rub.

As to your question about Aristeia, it’s not only that I find it distasteful, which I do, but that I SR the play. If you’re Town, then trying to bash players endlessly for looking at things a certain way is not how you get them to do the “right thing”. What Aristeia was doing to Mathblade for example seemed designed to get them to question their skills and worldview to the point where they either fail to act completely, or do what they wanted them to do. It’s manipulative in the extreme. I can’t TR it.

I also think the player least likely to be Scum is Mathblade. Mechanically, I don’t see it. I don’t see how we have a false clear. So I have to trust that Mathblade is Town or I know we have lost the game. Mathblade is now trying to argue that I’m Scum because *gasp* I have been enjoying my long weekend. But they can fuck off with that. If you want to make the most idiotic move in Mafia ever by randomly voting for a player in ELo outside of the established 1v1, by all means. But they’re still almost surely Town, and I can’t go against what they’ve been saying this whole game when they’ve been correct about a few key items and constantly ignored.

I will say, I think Aristeia brings some valid points about you, which is why I haven’t voted honestly. In part, I wanted to express as much certainty as possible here to try and get the Team to crystallize for me in some fashion, making the job a bit easier. I haven’t been able to get Datisi to vote, and Mathblade is obviously going to wait until the last minute, so that’s clearly failed, but I wanted to give myself a chance to maximize the odds of victory by making sense of a full solve with votes down and the game not over. Alternatively, maybe the game does end and it’s not my fault. That’s a bit cowardly, I know, but what are you doing to do.

[Andresvmb]

I hope Aristeia you’re feeling better btw. Obviously not great.

[Andresvmb]

I think I would have wanted to get voted up here. It’s the one time I think I’m going to make the Team lose almost regardless and that’s playing in my mind.

[Andresvmb]

ok

This is totally absurd though. You have supposed Confirmed Scum on your sights, and you’re agreeing to voting elsewhere? Is this really what was happening?

[Andresvmb]

^no I don’t. Aristeia could be Ascetic. What?

[Andresvmb]

If you want to make the most idiotic move in Mafia ever by randomly voting for a player in ELo outside of the established 1v1, by all means.

wait, hold up, did you yourself do this in the first game we played together? since when are you against this?

Go look at that game, and the strategic point I made that lead to my vote, and then come back here. I’m giving you the chance not to make yourself look foolish.

[Andresvmb]

Because if you think I was making a broader point about how to play ELo, that’s a gross misrepresentation of my play that game.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: IV

Sigh.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Datisi

Mechanically, I have no choice but to do this. With IV having flipped Scum Gunsmith, Mathblade cannot be Scum and is cleared in my mind.

The sigh btw was because I realized two things. One, that IV was openwolfing. And two, that even if I voted there correctly, we would still lose because I’m about to get executed. But it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

@Mathblade, I’m around to answer any questions you may have. Having said that, I wouldn’t listen to anything either Datisi or I have to say, and just vote whatever it is you want to do. I feel you’ll be voting for me anyway, so instead of dragging it out perhaps just get on with it.

[Andresvmb]

I’m much more civil than that. And for what it’s worth, I’ve enjoyed playing with you Datisi. I didn’t know you were capable of such a bus. It was pretty genius. I’m now totally fucked so I can at least praise solid Scum work.

[Andresvmb]

I have an hour or so beforehand but I kinda expected to be dead and Ari live as IV+Ari was still possible but me and anyone else after the flip wasnt.

After the cross-vote and the game not being over like immediately, Aristeia was absolutely cleared. And well Math, you did say you would vote for me so I’m not surprised you’re here.

[Andresvmb]

pretty sure ari also said she thought you were iv's partner. the actual baller move here would've been killing me.

You’re funny.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I have to get through the work day, so I’ll be back later. Again, more than happy to answer any questions and I think I’ve read most of the game, but I’m a little ashamed at my play so haha the fact that I’m getting dragged here means I’ve sucked.

[Andresvmb]

Do you have anything Andres?

Any case at all?

You do know I don’t pay attention to this site 24/7 right? I presumed you would give me time to give you my thoughts since you’re literally not in a rush and there’s nothing you need to be worried about.

[Andresvmb]

I think I’ll start with refuting some of what Datisi has said, and then I’ll make a broader case.

[Andresvmb]

And I say some because I’m not going to sit here and argue against proficiency. The standard Datisi is setting seems somewhat unfair, particularly as it pertains to me, but if I have literally never gotten Datisi wrong before, there’s nothing I can say that can directly refute that fact. All I can point to is that (i) presuming that someone is infallible and should be trusted until the end of time seems like an impossible standard, and (ii) it can be easily weaponized. Now, we do know Koba was Town, and I do trust Koba’s reads the vast majority of the Town, but Datisi is also arguing that Koba should have guessed the entire Scum Team D1 and from your POV, you already know that’s an impossible standard (since Koba by definition was wrong about one of us).

That’s ignoring the fact that Koba did say not to execute Datisi until ELo, but I don’t want to presume that they should be Scum should they be alive this long.