Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Val89]

All,

I've played with some of you before, and I'm glad to see all two of you back for more. For those of you don't know me, allow me to introduce myself - my name is Val89, and I'm known for opening my games by posting what appears on it's surface to be a load of crap and can't possibly be alignment indicative, but actually completely deduces the scum team in my first post. If you don't beleive me, allow me to refer you to the game in question. Yes, a sample size of one, but that is 100% of the games I've played that aren't ongoing and thus fair game for discussion. Not bad odds, I am sure you will agree.

So, I have to say my attention has been immeadately drawn by not_mafia: Clearly, if we consider only alignment at this stage, ignoring the possibility of a serious mod error, there are only 2 possiblities: Not Mafia is mafia, or Not Mafia is not mafia.

There are 9 players in the setup, of which 2 are mafia. That makes the probablity of case A, that Not Mafia is Mafia, as 2/9ths; and conversely, case B, that Not Mafia is not mafia as 7/9s.

Let's now consider another Non-Not Mafia player from the list, lets say, for sake of example, Lukewarm. The same possibities apply - either Lukewarm is mafia, or Lukewarm is not mafia. But Lukewarm is not Not Mafia, because that would be against the site rules precluding playing in the same game under two different names, so Lukewarm HAS to mafia. This logic can be applied to any other player you substitue for Lukewarm, with the sole exception of Not Mafia, meaning that 8 out of 9 players in the game would have to be mafia. Clearly, this is a contridiction, and so our initial assumption is wrong.

If you instead consider the alternative posibilities that either Not Mafia is mafia, or that Not Mafia is not not mafia, then we resolve our contridication. While this doesn't give us any clues as to any of the other playerbase, returning to our example, Lukewarm being not mafia is fine, if not mafia is not Not Mafia. Thus, either Not Mafia is mafia, or Not Mafia is not Not Mafia, and since Not Mafia CLEARY IS Not Mafia, then Not Mafia is mafia. Easy

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Val89]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to the game before I hit submit. If you want to verify my claims to 100% first post scum deduction accuracy, the relevant post is here.

[Val89]

what thing of substance did they bring to this game?

Post 25 is the thing of substance, obviously. It doesn't matter if you think the logic can be reduced to "Not_Mafia's name is Not_Mafia"; I don't agree that's a fair summation of the argument, and tells me you haven't engaged fully with it, by the way; but the argument itself isn't the substance Im hoping to draw - I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment - either the person I direct the post at, or myself, and that the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.

And Lo and behold, it has acheived just that. Look who immeadatlety jumps to Not_Mafia's defense, and with a vote no less. I imagine you noticed in that previous game it was the 'target' of the post who came in and tried to defend as if it were a serious scum case, but hell, I will take their scum partner doing so on their behalf. In fact, it's preferable, given that we now only need to chose who to lim first - Not_Mafia, or Lukewarm.

Even if the remaining scum gets a kill off tonight, that still leaves 6 town versus the one we chose to leave alive today, and that's got to be a town victory, so I don't really suspose it matters. I'll leave my vote where it is for now as a result, but I am open to moving it to Lukewarm if others have an argument as to why that might be the preferable order for the lims.

[Val89]

Does that mean you are satisfied with your vote, Lukewarm?

[Val89]

(also, I did not notice any thing about your target, I only looked at like the first 4ish posts in your iso)

You what? What sort of mafia player tries to make push a meta read on someone without having first actually read the ISO. I know it can vary from game to game, but you do know the first 4ish post puts us firmly in RVS territory, right? Of course you do - I'll tell you what sort of mafia player does this; scum, trying to pick up some easy towncred for indicating they have gone to the effort to do a metadive. It might have worked too if you hadn't been silly enough to admit this.

Of course, admitting that you are splashing out a meta read without having read more than 4ish posts is almost too scummy to actually be scum, that I actually think that's what you want us to assume - that you have to be town. Hiding that behind a spolier tag indicates to me you might have known that, and I have to say, engaging in WIFOM this early in the thread does nothing to convince me I am on the wrong track, here, Lukewarm.

In any case, it's your scumbuddy who is sat at E-2 right now, so I am interesting it watching if they try and distance themselves from you, or if they elect to just completely ignore the fact you are being read as Not_Mafia's scummybuddy, not mention it, and hope we don't notice.

[Val89]

Val was one of the more substantive posters in 2068

I think you might have misunderstood Lukewarm. I am he will correct me if I am wrong, but he was trying to suggest that I have posted nothing of substance to THIS game thus far, not that I posted nothing of substance in 2068.

I'll let you read my ISO and decide if you come to the same conclusion. Personally, I think it's self evident that having deduced both scum partners by midway through Page 2 would count as something of substance, but to be fair to him, I didn't deduce him as the scum buddy until AFTER his 31.

I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.

[Val89]

The idea that any town player would already be ready to decide who should be the Day 1 elim on page 2 baffles me

If you try and read my confident conclusion through the lens of a newbie player who has 100% accuracy at deducing scum post-1, that it might help unbaffle you.

Of course, if it turns out I am wrong this time, then I might just have to face up to the fact that my post-1 reads may be NAI, but until I see the flip, I won't know that, will I?

As you will see if you read further into 2068, I eventually decided someone else was acting more scummy than my post-1 pick, and moved my vote to them. The person I ended up scumreading ended up being a town PR, so in hindsight, it turns out I should have just stuck to my guns on that first post-1 read. Stands to reason I will take that experience into my future games, no?

[Val89]

7for7 is probably not the best way to play tbh

Oh, I agree completely, but 1for1 might well be reasonable, at least for the first couple of pages. I'll be sure to let you know if anything else pings my radar. I'm not adverse to adjusting my reads, particulary such early ones, if there is a reason to do so.

By the way, does anyone else have an opinion if Zyla's post counts as a potential Buzzword scumtell?

[Val89]

However, I am pretty confident in my ability to have a solid read on her by the end of Day 1 -- I will keep you posted

Interesting. Is that because you've played with her before, and have managed to correctly read her by the end of Day 1 in the past?

[Val89]

Even before putting his first serious vote on, he really thought it through with a longer post and reasoning instead of just, "welp."

Unless I have reason to differ, I imagine you can expect the same in this game, too.

I have my eye on Zyla a bit already because [ongoing games] but it's more of a lean than a read at this point.

In which direction is that lean? I am reading 'having your eye on' as 'scumlean', but I just want to clarify because that could potentially be taken in either direction.

[Val89]

Normally the 'blowing up nothing into something' bit would ping scum for me, but I just don't think someone whose Topics List has so many games would fall into that trap.

I'm sorry, I didn't follow what that means. Would you mind rephrasing?

I get what blowing up nothing into something means, but why do you feel it's only scummy coming from an inexperianced player, is that is what you are trying to say?

[Val89]

I just want clarify because I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here, your

[Val89]

Sorry, I'll try that one again:

I just want clarify because I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here, your claim is that had an RVS-ish vote on my slot after reading 25, which you did no take at face value, but your subsequent vote in 75 was a serious, I'm actually scumleaning this slot, vote because you take my claims that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the D1 elmin and that you were defending Not_Mafia at face value?

Is that how I am to interpret 86, or am I missing something?

[Val89]

For fuller context, here is a little more of the relevant part of 33:

but the argument itself isn't the substance Im hoping to draw - I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment - either the person I direct the post at, or myself, and that the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.

I currently reserve judgement on whether your decision not to quote the operative part of that sentence - that I am hoping someone takes it as a serious indication of someone elses alignment - was deliberate, and if so, for what purpose, until I've had a closer look at your other games.

The "discussions of substance" I am hoping to take part in are those that follow after someone has done as I said I hoped in 33. I'm still not sure if we are in that realm or not with you. I'm not defending anything, I was simply asking, and it looks like I will have to ask you again, if we are to take your 86 as meaning you that claim you didn't take my post 25 at face value, but that you are now taking my statements that you were defending Not_mafia, and that we should lim him today, at face value?

What either circumstance means for your alignment I am unclear, but I thought it would help get a clearer picture if I asked you to clarify which set of circumstances we are actually in before I attempt to make that deduction, or perhap decide it's NAI.

Could you clarify the intent of your 86, please?

[Val89]

Thank you. At least we got there in the end.

Quoting more of 33 changes things because, as I said, the operative part of my statement there was that " I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment...and that the following discussion is of substance". In other words, I consider the discussion that follows from my 'serious-shitpost' as substansive only when someone takes something I say while doing so as being serious.

Honestly, I thought it was self-evident that my statement that you were defending Not_Mafia, or that Not_mafia should be the lim today were as non-serious as the inital post. I read Pav's retoricial question at 70 as inidcation they picked that up, Alstro seems to indicate they thought so in 73 (as well as noting the ambiguity I was feeling about if

you

were taking it seriously also), and I think, but it's a little less clear, that Zyla was saying so as well in 46.

Marci seemed to be taking it at face value in 50, and in fact the only person I wasn't sure about was you, Lukewarm. I took your 32, and your answer to my 37 which mirrored how the discussion went in game 2068 that you had read through the first part of that game, understood and agreed with my intent, and we were basically bantering back and forth. I also took your "Maybe Val is just strange." and piviot to Alstro as confirmation you hadn't really taken me seriously until you came back to it in 86, which is why I've gone to pains since then to clarify the situation.

For the record on my part: I do not think Not_Mafia is actually scum due to any logic I give in 25, I don't think he should be the lim today, and as such at present I would unvote him if another vote came his way, and I don't think Lukewarm was deliberately jumping in to defend Not_Mafia in 31 because they are scum buddies.

Now we know the Lukewarm did take my 33 onwards seriously, we can get to deducing what that means for his alignment. We now have something of substance to discuss - ie: why Lukewarm in particular took me seriously when at least a handful of other players don't appear to have done so - and I consider that job done.

The concenus may well be that it makes Lukewarm townleaning, or that it's NAI, but I'll open up by saying my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy. The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy. That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it is

obviously

RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

I know it isn't much in isolation, but it appears out of everything we've got in the thread so far to have the highest chance of actually being alignment indiciative, so I would like to explore this.

[Val89]

Marci seemed to be taking it at face value in 50

I acknowledged Marci's comments in my post.

Interesting choice of quote from Alstro's 73. Seems like this one would be the one actually relevant to the topic at hand:

As a result, Luke's response threw me off a bit because it seemed to be taking it completely at face value. So I wasn't sure if Luke was, like, playing along, or...?

Are you really trying to spin 73 as Alstro having taken me seriously? I can't speak for them, but I have to say it reads pretty clear to me - if they thought you might be "playing along", then they thought there was a joke of some kind to play along with. I'm sure they can weigh in on the issue.

Anyways, I am fully ready to death tunnel Val now

Maybe someone else can help me out, but I'm not sure how else to characterise this if not "over-the-top sensitive"...

[Val89]

To be clear:

--I did not take your Not_Mafia case seriously.

For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read

???

[Val89]

Yes, that is precisely what I felt like responding to, because your entire argument as to why you feel my read can't be genuine begins as follows:

For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read -- So his theory appears to be:

But, you are very clear in post 96 that you are aware that it wasn't a serious read. Whatever argument then follows from an obviously false premise is worthless, no?

Trying to tell us you think 'Val is scum because he is trying to sell us an argument he doesn't genuinely believe. He can't believe it because it doesn't make sense to me when you look at it from this chain of reasoning that begins with him backing off his scum read of Not_Mafia' when you've already explicitly said you don't believe the Not_Mafia read was serious, and I've confirmed that to be case, seems borderline trying to insult our intelligence, frankly.

My 'read' in 99, which in actual fact was more "here is something I think might be scummy about Lukewarm, what does everyone else think" than a scumread, isn't predicated on scumreading Not Mafia in the slightest. The thing I think might potentially be scummy is the fact that you took something I thought was obviously non-serious, that you were defending a scum partner, as serious, when at least some other players did not. You've tried attacking the argument by sarcastically suggesting that others DID take me seriously, and used, for example, selective quoting of Alstros post 73 to suggest they thought I was being serious when a read of the whole post makes it clear they did not. When I've pointed that out, you've moved on to trying to frame an argument that my read can't be genuine on a false premise - and when I pointed that out by simply quoting the obviously contradictory parts between 96 and 102, you then attempt to frame me as scum for pointing out that contradiction.

My 99 was simply pointing out something that pinged me as scummy, but I entered into this conversation believing with further exploration it may well turn out to be NAI or even perhaps town motivated. I have to say, your reaction seems somewhat strange. I don't believe you are a bad player, so why you feel the need to resort to sarcasm, selective quoting, and obviously disingenuous arguments as town, I don't know.

I still feel discussing

THIS

is likely to lead to posts that allow us to start forming reads more effectively than discussing some other RVS stuff like Zyla's 10 for instance, so I think inviting others to give their thoughts on the matter is the appropriate way forward here.

[Val89]

Val, if the NM read wasn't real, why have you left your vote there for ages?

I haven't seen a reason to move it just yet. While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.

Now we know the Lukewarm did take my 33 onwards seriously, we can get to deducing what that means for his alignment. We now have something of substance to discuss - ie: why Lukewarm in particular took me seriously when at least a handful of other players don't appear to have done so

The consensus may well be that it makes Lukewarm townleaning, or that it's NAI, but I'll open up by saying my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.

I know it isn't much in isolation, but it appears out of everything we've got in the thread so far to have the highest chance of actually being alignment indicative, so I would like to explore this.

I felt like taking something that wasn't meant to be serious as serious, if others have correctly deduced that it wasn't meant to be serious

could

be, but isn't definitely, alignment indicative. If it was AI, my initial thoughts on the matter were that it was probably scummy rather than townleaning for the reasons I give - that it may indicate a hypersensitivity to the slightest shade, even if that shade wasn't serious; but I didn't actually know for sure that we weren't bantering back-and-forth until post 86.

This is my 3rd game of mafia, and previously, things that I've considered to be alignment indicative haven't been, and if I have a weakness, it's that once I've decided a slot pings me as scummy I've started to see everything that slot posts as being scummy. It's not impossible - I initially scumread Zyla in 2068, and her responses slowly convinced me that I was wrong, but mostly I've held the view that slots I start thinking are scummy are scummy right up until I see the flip even when others, even basically

all

the others, are reading them as town. I've only played two games, and one of those is still on-going and thus off-limits to examples, but it's been a theme in my play I am aware of and trying to actively guard against.

Because of that, although I had that ping from Lukewarm, and I've seen some issues with his response like I've already identified - the selective quoting, attempting to portray me as susing him because he is voting me etc, but I am actively trying hard to read everything this game through the lens of "is there an alternative explanation for this, could this slot, while doing some things you think are scummy not actually

be

scummy.

If it helps everyone understand where I am, I will unvote here. Whilst I think Lukewarm has started to ping me scummy, I am not throwing my vote down on them and calling them a scumread until I have more reason to do so, in an attempt to avoid another Val v JamesTheNames situation.

UNVOTE:

[Val89]

that you were defending a scum partner

Is it pre-flip associations time? Let me get the popcorn.

Let's expand that 106 quote just a tiny bit more:

The thing I think might potentially be scummy is the fact that you took something I thought was obviously non-serious, that you were defending a scum partner, as serious, when at least some other players did not.

Did you really take that to mean I was making legimitiate pre-flip associations?

[Val89]

Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim

Mainly because I don't want to put too much stock in what most people seem to agree when I've not played with him, and I don't think I've yet read a newbie game with him in it.

Early days, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he will be trouble, or any harder to read than anyone else in the game.

I said what I said because I wanted to be clear that when I said "I still think NM should be the lim today" I was 100 percent in non-serious territory. Just in case people thought I was obviously being non-serious about the reasons, but I do actually want NM gone today - I don't. I'm not in the 'policy lim NM' camp either at this stage. He gets as fair a shake at showing himself town or scum in this particular game as the rest of you, despite my RVS vote falling there.

You both really seem to like taking what the other person is saying out of context

Well, I took Alstro to mean they were confused if Luke was playing along with me or not because that's the same way I felt at the time, until they cleared it up after prompting. If you think we are both wrong, best just to wait for Alstro themselves to weigh in.

[Val89]

he's claimed himself that he's not voting seriously, which at least to me seems like an anti-town red flag (whether or not he's scum), what's your thought on that?

There are a few people not voting seriously at this point; you, Zyla, among them, I beleive. If he maintains that position when we are further in the game and have good cause to be voting people seriously and he isn't, we can talk again.

wouldn't you be willing to eliminate him if more information pointed to him being scummy?

Of course.

I am just pretty sure Val just is scum here -- But I also am aware that I am not the greatest at convincing people to follow me (I would say that the Newbie game against Zyla and T3 was the exception, not the rule) -- So I accept defeat on trying to convince anyone over the prior discussion

I have to say if you are "pretty sure" you have scum in your sights, but you decide up front you won't be able to convince other people of the fact, perhaps your argument isn't as strong as you think it is. You don't think it's worth pushing your "pretty sure" scumread until you've sorted all the other slots? I would say if you are sure, at least giving your best attempt to pushing that slot all the way to the flip today is the way to play towards the town victory, no?

[Val89]

You put out a bunch of content, and now seem aghast that we would try to sort you based off of that content.

I'm not aghast in the slightest. Please continue to discuss it freely; I am hoping you aren't the only slot that decides to comment on my 'bunch of content' because I put it out there specifically to get reactions. I'm sorting you, and others, from how you approach trying to sort me from it.

I regret nothing, obviously, given I've takent he same apporach here as I did in my previous game because it has generated something meaty to discuss. It might have drawn a scumread from you, but I am fine with that, because I am not feeling my slot is in any real danger of being mislimmed here, and there is a chance it's scum!Lukewarm pushing it, and if so, a chance you will reveal yourself as such while persuing it.

I don't see what is anti-town about trying to drive the game from RVS into 'here's something we can discuss that has some chance of being alignment indicative'; and it has come in both games from someone taking my posting seriously. I'm happy with that, and I would call it pro-town before I would call "Hah you have a funny avatar lets vote X" or whatever.

[Val89]

Well, at 71, I myself didn't see what could have pinged Not_mafia about the Lukewarm slot; but Lukewarm himself says he's found Not_mafia to be a pretty good scum hunter, so perhaps NM can elighten us.

If you are asking me why I didn't scumread NM for the fact he didn't move the vote at the time of making that post; I will point out that, while I am definetly getting some scumpings from Lukes slot since then, I don't think it's anything to vote over just yet, so I don't think it's AI.

[Val89]

I'm not sure that NM is

most certainly not

the play today; I was trying to get across the fact of my earlier assertion that he should be the lim definitely falls squarely into RVS shitpost territory. He might well turn out to be the lim today, but I have absolutely zero reason to call it either way yet, and I don't think anyone else realistically can at this point.

Honestly, I am starting to feel a little bit like I am being asked if I am a Mason with NM. I can start to understand where you get your reputation for that sort of thing from.

[Val89]

oop

VOTE: Portia

Is that vote supposed to indicate you are scumreading Portia, Lukewarm?

[Val89]

VOTE: Lukewarm

I unvoted because people seemed confused as to wether or not I seriously thought Not Mafia should be limmed, but I didn't put my vote back on to anyone because I didn't really have a scumlean on anyone at that point.

Now I do. It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.

[Val89]

This or Portia look like good wagons to me rn. Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages.

I find the offering up of Portia as the second "good wagon" as little strange. Umlaut commented on a huge chunk of the thread in 199, but the only thing I see in reference to Portia are two comments; first that he "like

Portia's intro" and the second that 166 is "way over-the-top reaction from Portia and I don't like it" - something Portia has already acknoldged and appologised for in 166.

There isn't a lot in Portia's iso, but it's enough to just start pinging him as town for me; and that's based on 112, 120, 168-169 and the second part of 196. All of which has gone without comment in Umlaut's 199. It is notable in it's absense.

Umlaut concludes that neither Zyla nor Portia has given him "any reason to think they're town". Can I ask, Umlaut, when you say "I like Portia's intro", do you mean it in a difference sense to 'Portia's intro seems town'?

[Val89]

Frankly the tone was unreasonable and I am glad we got an apology, but I disgree there is no reason for town!Portia to be miffed - he gave a read in 120, perhaps not a great one, but a read none-the-less, then Luke comes and comes and say's he's reading his ISO and can't find anywhere he has taken any sort of stance. At that point Portias ISO is 7 posts, and the last one is the read, so it's not buried.

The tone of the reaction WAS over-the-top, but I suggest there was good reason for a town player to be annoyed at another player for suggesting they have given no reads when they clearly have. This seems supported by the fact the item Lukewarm was told to insert was the very read he missed.

From the rest of your post, I take it your stance is less "Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages." and more 'I thought Portia's introduction seemed town but I decided that didn't mean much and think he is now worth wagoning after seeing his 166?'.

[Val89]

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players; but to spend the time dismantling it now will rob me of the opportunity to use your case on me to sort other slots.

I'm waiting to see who else picks up on the stuff I plainly see and comments on it - T3 has explained they have this way of 'town telling' people by seeing who else picks up on things they have. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's worth looking at. If I go ahead and spend the time dismantling your case now, I rob town of the opportunity to learn what they can from others reactions to it.

If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say; but I know you've precisely zero chance of riding me to a mislim today and I'm not all that interested in defending myself at this point.

[Val89]

im not sure if 58 is the right post, its linking to a luke post instead of a val post.

That wasn't the only case Umluat did that - He also says 115 "by luke" is "actually kinda town", but it's one of my posts.

val have u ever responded to this? i kinda think luke might want you to..

He might well do, but I've explained in 217 why I am not. If nobody else picks up on the reason why it's a non-argument by the time it becomes pertinent, I'll explain, but not now.

val do you have reads on people who arent luke? lol

I've said already Portia has started pinging me as town; I'll say Pav has done so likewise. I'm waiting for Umlauts' response to my 213 before I decide if anything we've seen from him is alignment indicative.

I'm not seeing what others are seeing regarding Zyla, and they are still null for me currently, as are you, Marci. People say you are pinging town, but maybe it's something you have to played with you previously to pick up on. Not_mafia also remains null for obvious reasons.

Alstro I'm not sure about. I've not picked up anything scummy from them, but in my previous game I was able to get a townvibe from them very easily from the get-go, and I haven't this time. Maybe it's because they entered the thread a bit later during last time I played with them because of a listing error, and I just don't know how to parse their early RVS-style play, so lets call them null for now, too.

[Val89]

can u take a break from ur luke fight then and try to further ur reads in one of these nulls o-o if u have any questions about my posts ill respond whenever i see them (:

also val ill be honest, 217 makes u seem a bit scummy imo, it just looks like excuses so that you don't have to respond to luke. if you really dont want to tho, ill drop it.

My answer to both of these is that I am hoping the response of the rest of the player list to Lukes 'case' against me will help me do just that.

The other consideration is when some explicitly says they are ignoring my slot, and suggest they want to move in another direction; then either re-iterates that or tries to defend that as being the pro-town move several times (182,186, 188, 207) - and then suddenly:

*bam* wallpost!

with the express justifcation of because "fuck it", then I have to wonder what the hell, you know?

If a possible scum is trying to distract me (or everyone else) from something that was happening in the thread just prior, and feel it is so important as to abadon their apparently strongly held and defended beleifs on what is pro-town to do so, then I feel like I would be playing into their hands by going along and allowing the distraction, you know?

[Val89]

--If the consensus is we flip Val, and he does flip town

--If the consensus is we flip Val, and I am wrong

That awkward moment when you Freudian slip that you know the guy you are pushing is always going to flip town.

Let's have a good laugh about this moment in the post-game together, shall we? Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now

[Val89]

He did link an interesting article in 86, didn't he Alstro?

You would think it follows if he linked it and recommended we read it, he must have read it himself.

As a town player, when you vote for yourself, you are voting for the only player in the town that you know to be not scum: Yourself. This means that your vote is inherently unreadable and inherently unhelpful . Some mods go so far as to ban self votes from their game, which is not ok either. You should be able to vote for whomever you want, and when town does this it is bad play, and not out of the purview of the game.

One has to wonder why one would recommend we read an article that takes a very very strong stand on something being anti-town - and then go and do that very thing in that same game if he was town, eh?

[Val89]

I'm not sure it's really nesscary to respond to any points you've asked me to weigh in on, although I haven't seen any in the last few posts - while you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.

I'm not sure why any mafia thinks they can link an article that says "you should never EVER EVER vote for yourself in a game of mafia unless by some way it helps achieve your win condition. A good example of this is Mr. Flay voting himself to achieve a lynch as scum, so that he could end the days discussion and not let the town have information", whilst trying to achieve a lynch and end the days discission, and then say with a straight face that you "should be pretty obviously in [your] town game".

Is this what the mean by the term openwolfing?

[Val89]

Begging is such a bad look, Lukewarm.

I know you must obviously have decided I was bluffing when I said there was zero chance of me being the mislim today, which is why you deciding to make this play even more sweeter for me. I am really going to enjoy this game

[Val89]

[Val89]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

[Val89]

I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do

Are you in agreement then that if something comes to light that leads you to be confident I am not scum, you are prepared to vote off Luke without hestitation?

[Val89]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

[Val89]

As an aside, I've not played with him before, I think we can take not_mafia at his word that he won't lolhammer in Newbie games, so I wouldn't recommend allowing that to cloud your judgement if you think a vote is warranted, here.

[Val89]

Give over, there is zero chance are TvT. You've basically claimed scum at this point, and are only hoping you can throw out enough "please vote with me, I've been right before" appeals to rustle up enough votes to get a mislim, but it ain't happening.

I'm not sure who you are hoping to convince when you have to back pedal - you've already said everyone should consider you voting anyone else as a scum claim, so it looks like that ship has sailed to me. What are you going to do, sit on your hands the rest of day one without voting anyone and hope the rest of us turn on Portia or someone without seeing either of us flip?

[Val89]

The lamo defence - for when the 'lol' defence isn't quite scummy enough.

Don't worry, I'm not entirely if you were actually concerned about my feelings or if it's theatre for the benefit of others, but if the former, rest assured that you've not made the game unfun for me at all.

We are all going to have a good laugh about your 234 in a couple of days time, I am sure. It's situations like this make me glad I signed up to play.

[Val89]

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.

For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."

Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.

He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.

I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.

Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.

For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."

Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.

He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.

I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.

Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?

[Val89]

I have no idea how that managed to double post

in the same post

, I can only appologise. The above is only half the length it looks at first glance, it just repeats.

[Val89]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

I imagined, reading that, that there would be some strong, cohesive argument as to how I am scum that was strong enough he can be bold enough to consider me voting him a straight up scum claim. I don't see how ANYTHING in 214 ties in with that, yet alone a 'leading reason'.

I am also seriously struggling how to tie up someone who says the stuff in 176, with the same player making the case in made in 290. He is supposedly town, he is worried that active scum might take over the thread, but he is going to give someone he reads so strongly as scum as to go 1v1 free reign to do so? None of this is town behavior, folks.

[Val89]

From the rest of your post, I take it your stance is less "Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages." and more 'I thought Portia's introduction seemed town but I decided that didn't mean much and think he is now worth wagoning after seeing his 166?'.

Since you are here, Umlaut, would you mind answering this? I'm trying to get a handle on what your stance of Portia actually is, given that your assertion they've given you nothing to think they are town seems to conflict with your first line of 212

[Val89]

"Keeping the game alive" by having two hyperposters tunnel one another into the ground forever is not actually good for the health of the game anyway.

Speaking of hyper posters, I've noticed that despite making a big song and dance about how they are restricting their posting, Lukewarm has over double the post count of the next active poster - myself - and I dont feel like they have delivered double actual content.

It's also interesting to note that scum!Luke is a more prolific poster than town!Luke has been, at least in the newbie games I've looked at:scum!Luke made 200 posts before elimination by D2; and we are at 105 here not even halfway through D1. Town!luke has much lower numbers: 145, 119(although he replaces in on pg22) and

149

.

I'm not saying it's 100% alignment indicative, but it just another ping in a growing list.

[Val89]

The thing, the one thing, that I have repeatedly said that he never engaged with, was this section of 107 / 102 :

And I've said, repeatedly, that I am not sure how you expect me to engage with it when it is clearly non-sensesial, because it's based on a false premise. I pointed that out and you simply went and susbtituted the words, but retained the same false premise - that the whole argument is predicated on the fact that either: a) I seriously accussed you of being scum partners with Not_Mafia, or b) I wasn't seriously accusing you, but scum!you would be happy to be falsly accused because it gives you town cred -

implying of course that I WAS seriously accusing you

. It makes zero sense.

In the end, the decision players have to weigh up is this - Is it more likley that the Lukewarm who plays these sort of town games, and has built up a reputation as a good town player they think they can cash in on, has seriously decided that I rolled scum, came into the thread, and made it as fucking obvious as I can that I was scum by doing these things with a straight face:

*Claiming that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim
*Accusing me of defending Not_Mafia
*And who actually thinks that another player should have done a full meta dive before casting a vote on page 2?

You what? What sort of mafia player tries to make push a meta read on someone without having first actually read the ISO.

^^These are the reasons I am currently suspicious of Val^^

or is it more likely that we are seeing play closer to the scum!Luke D1 of this game - make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality? I think the answer is self-evident.

[Val89]

This is actually a sensible point; if I were town!Val in this situation I would definitely prefer to try and get you to back off and do something productive instead of continuing to come back to this.

I disagree. I think in combination, the evidence is pretty strong to point to the fact that Lukewarm will flip scum if we flipped him today; lets' call it 95% sure. I know you've obviously come to another conclusion, that if I am not scum, that Luke is just a tunnelled townie, and if the 'sensible point' is why I don't seem concerned about the risk of being mislimmed D2 in the unlikley 5% case Luke did flip town if he were the choice today, then I can only say that I am confident that this playerlist would find reason to find me town anyway, in spite of a green Luke flip, if we were to need to have that discussion on D2 (which I really don't see happening!)

[Val89]

I think Val being town makes ... Umlaut a little more likely to be scum.

This is interesting. I saw you put Umlaut in the pool of people a Val flip would give info on earlier, and I wondered if you had seen the same thing I had.

Can you explain why you think this, but beleive Lukes' alignment won't be any clearer after the flip?

[Val89]

My point was that your scum lean (at the time) as stated, does not make sense.

Except it does makes. You state it doesn't make sense, then try and handwave the reason it doesn't make sense with an argument based on false premise, and keep trying to repeat the same argument that still doesn't make sense with different words. We've done this dance.

But fine, if it takes me spelling it out in minute detail for the benifit of those who just see words repeated over and over again and assume it must be a valid argument, then I guess I will have to.

Val has made is clear that they are not currently scum reading Not_Mafia, ...

Correct. Point A.

... which would mean that his theory is as follows:

**Scum!me saw Val make post 25 where he voted for Not_Mafia, who is not my partner -- and in response, I voted Val (for some reason).

Correct. Point B.

**Then, Val accused me of being scum partners with Not_Mafia AND he says that we should elim Not_Mafia first

Incorrect. Contradicts obviously with A. I can't be seriously accusing you of being scum partners with someone I'm not scum reading.

Don't forget, this is the SECOND attempt at pushing this non-argument, the first time Point A read "For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read", and it's simply been sustituted for words that mean the same thing as far as the logic goes. Luke is trying to sell you the story that I am scum because I didn't - for the SECOND time - spend the time and energy pointing out in detail why Not scumreading one player means I can't be scumreading two players with that player in the pair as scumpartners when I had already done so once.

See, the thing is for me, that I don't buy that a town!Luke is stupid enough to actually think that I was saying he and NM were scumpartners if I don't think NM is scum. That's why I think it has be coming from scum. Pick something, even if it makes zero sense, dress it up to look like a semi-wall post, and post it, and repeat it over and over as if it is daming until people's eye glaze over and just accept it must be something. If the target of it points out it amounts to nothing, just change some of the words and repost. If the target doesn't reengage and keep repeatedly point out why it's obvious crap, call him scummy - and if he does engage with you pointing out why it's crap repeatedly, well you've succeded in spamming up the thread with crap. Town!Luke is a better player than this, and it has to be coming from scum.

[Val89]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".

[Val89]

In post 99 HE said, that scum!me thought as much (I have added page breaks to the following quote to make it easier to read)

my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.

The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy.

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum.
{snip}
then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early.

My question to Val is, and has been:
Why would you expect scum!luke to behave the way you outlined in post 99? Why would I need to discredit you there? Why would I continue on that push once you explicitly said that "Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm," ?

He has still failed to engage with that, or reconcile his scum read on me.

Why not just quote the very next sentence?

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

Like, I know you are scum and all, this is your job; but I am wondering what benefit there is for the other 6 townies I know must be out there to sit and watch you pull this sort of thing without comment.

[Val89]

Look. Real talk now. This stuff from Luke obviously isn't for my benefit - it's for yours; lazy-ass townie that is trying to coast this game without putting in the work or engaging with the thread.

Read Lukewarms 324; and note question he asks, and note which paragraph he is quoting from. Now actually click my 99 and read the paragraph quoted from. Pull them up side-by-side if he helps. Note what has been "snipped" from my post, and how it answers the question.

The reason this guy has double the posts of anyone else in the thread, and your eyes are glazing over after having to look at another round of this Luke v Val shit is no mistake. When you read his ISO, he wants you to see that snipped post, take the easy way out and not bother checking what is being posted.

The fact that Lukewarm has decided he can pull this sort of stunt is because not only have you let him get away with these sort of arguments all thread, some of you have even started TOWNREADING him for it. I'm not going to blame scum for being scummy, that's the game, but I feel like you lot don't give a shit about this game or something because its a newbie queue.

I said I was going to enjoy this game, but If you can't be arsed to actually do the reading and dig in, and are just going write it off as "TvT"; then start putting your votes on me and run me up to E-1 so we can move on.

[Val89]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

No. I am saying you saw me suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and that in the process of reading me and discussing my bullshit claim that other town players were going to at least consider the possibility of scum!Luke + scum!Not_mafia, and the same individually, if even for a second, if even just long enough to go "LOL, what bullshit", and reactively, scum!Luke, or any scum player might see "scum + their name" and have a 'uh uh, better stamp on that' reaction.

There is no need for Not_Mafia, or anyone else for that matter, to be scum or not scum, and for my read on that slot to be serious or non-serious, for the general prncible that

a scum player might not want any sort of adverse attention on thier slot

to hold. It's not that difficult to understand. That's exactly what the sentence you 100%

deliberately

ommited from my 99 says, and you know it. Town can afford an early mislim or two, even if it hurts their game, not so with scum.

[Val89]

Question for Val about this discussion of post 99. I think I'm getting confused by the semantics. Is what you were saying an associative sort of read, which is that you don't think NM is scum, but Luke being scum makes NM more likely to be scum because of the defense? I don't mean what you think now, but what your original intent in the post was.

It was no sort of assocative read in any manner whatsover. You remember in 2068 when I opened by saying MiniMB must be scum because she lied to us by saying she was "first!" when the mod was; and that her using a handshake emojii and the 'y'all' instead of 'you' meant she was scum? Then MiniMB seemed to take it as an actual serious scum read and you said this:

MiniMegabyte: Similarly to Cook, I haven't seen Mini before but I thought an SE would be playing differently, but maybe I'm just wrong. Posts 58-62 seemed like taking an obvious joke (25) completely at face value, and that's pretty much all we've gotten. It was weirdly defensive off of Val's joke-accusation.

And then remember how the MiniMB slot did actually turn out to be scum?

Remember when in 99 I suggested that Luke seemed also to be hypersensitive in the same way and

maybe

that might be AI (I had a sample of size of one, remember) and maybe we should talk about it? The only reason you are confused about how this is somehow dependant on it being an assocative read, or conditional on Not_mafia being scum is because Luke has been spamming the thread with noise to suggest such, and you've brought it.

It is not an assocative read. It doesn't depend on not_mafia, or anyone else, being of any particular alignment. To borrow your phrase, I was suggesting that Luke might be "weirdly defensive of a joke-accusation", that was all. Please, put Lukes' bullshit to the back of your head, read the last 3 paragraphs of 99 again, and tell me if you are still confused after that.

[Val89]

I personally doubt I would have cared, even if it was the exact right combo.

And this is EXACTLY my point. You did care - you cared enough to think I was being fucking serious, and you cared enough to spend the energy you have done trying to build a scumcase on me for it.

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

Are you really trying to say "Look, I can;t be scum because I'm not playing exactly as I did in my last scum game"?

When I've brought your games, I've done so pointing out where I think the similarities are closer to how you played that scum game than how you played your town games - not that you are playing a repeat of it. The important part to me is how you pushed StrangeMatter, not how you interacted with Hockey.

[Val89]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".

Self-imposed post limits out the window, and still no answer to this. You would think explaining "the main reason you are scum reading" someone you are actively pushing for elimination would be important, if you gueninely thought they had "scum claimed", no?

[Val89]

This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me

Zero resemblence?

make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality

It certainly resembles it to me. Early case on me because you think my read on you "wasn't gunine" in some subjective sense; I'll let others decide if so-called 'townleading' towards the mislm of your choice is what you are attempting to do here.

You are saying that this can't be the same, because you and your scumbuddy backed off it when Strange was at E-1? I don't recall you having managed to push your case to E-1 yet, so it seems strange to offer that as as a reason this can't be the same. And by strange, I mean, desperate.

[Val89]

I am also, like Umlaut, ready to consider a policy elim on NM if others feel similarly.

No, I bloody well don't. Policy lim him for what, exactly? Making the same Jester claim everywhere and having a reputation for quickhammering in non-newbie games?

If it's for lack of content, then it's the mods job to prod them, not for town to lim them.

And if we absolutely must settle Luke/Val today, well, we'll fall off that bridge when we come to it.

I hope it's comfortable up on that fence. Unfortuantly, and I'm not directing this specifically at you, that fence is a very good place for the second scum to be hiding.

I think Zyla is coasting.

I think the whole town is asleep at the wheel; so no, I'm not voting Zyla for something half the playerlist is guilty of.

[Val89]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

No. And if you or anyone else doesn't like that; vote me for it.

There is scum on open display, and 200-odd posts to sort it.

[Val89]

Or are you not actually scum hunting this game

Scum hunting does not equal posting a reads list; and you know that, else my slot wouldn't be the only one you were directing that question to.

This disingenous behavior does nothing for your case.

[Val89]

No; I feel like I've done almost all the work here; and I'm not sure what you think you are acheiving by asking the slots that have already posted more than half of all the posts in the thread to post more. Between me and Luke, you've got near 200 posts to work with, and you still seem unable to take a stance.

[Val89]

val seems a bit more aggressive rn imo

That's a fair assesment. We are approaching page 15, and I'm getting a little frustrated that everyone seems content to sit back and watch.

[Val89]

While I agree that there's been a range of activity levels, I don't think it's fair to call everyone else coasting just because they aren't on as much. People have jobs, etc.

I have a job, too. I'm not calling people coasting for not being on as much, I'm frustrated because there is already a bunch of content to sort through; and all we seem to be getting out of it is variations on 'eh, seems TvT, or maybe of them is scum. Probably val, dunno'. The response has been to ask to the slots that have been posting out their earholes to post even more.

im pretty sure people have taken stances, and more likely its against you. without you providing content on slots outside of luke, ur preventing ur chance to fix this before it gets too far.

Fair. But then why am I sat at 2 votes; and one of those I think is a left over from RVS?

You are giving scum space to hide.

[Val89]

317 is good advice, and one that he would not be expected to give even if scum

NM would make a good cop target assuming we have one.

Hard disagree. I almost commented on this earlier, but I don't know how to approach explaining it at this stage.

I think this is pretty damn scummy, but I don't really want to go into how until there's a few claims on the table; and I don't think now is a good time for that.

Remind me to circle back to it.

[Val89]

I'm not arguing that its bad advice in a hypothetical sense, I am disagreeing that Umlaut posted it with the intent of throwing out some hypothetical advice, I think he was fishing, and fishing for something very specific, whilst looking like he was giving advice.

[Val89]

Now; you look like you are fishing.

No; you are not getting answers to those questions at this point. We will come back to it.

[Val89]

You think, me and/or Umlaut saying: "If we have a cop, they should consider targeting Not_Mafia" is fishing?

Yes.

Also, you appear to think that copping Not_Mafia is bad, but do not want to explain why until after out hypothetical cop would have to decide if they wanted to target him or not Night??

No comment.

I've said I will come back to it at the appropriate time, and I will do so. I don't see how a town player doesn't realise this line of question is either straight-up PR fishing, or least how it can appear so...

[Val89]

[Val89]

Even worse it just gives more info to scum.

Which is EXACTLY why I think Luke is continuing to push it.

[Val89]

Portia is a townlean for me. He's been playing whilst intoxicated and it shows, but I've seen nothing that pings me as scummy in that ISO.

Trust me; when I saw 166, I was hoping it was coming from scum; but when I revisited it at a result of Umluats postings, and having got over that "wtf??" moment, I can see why he was annoyed and find no reason for scum reading him for it. The read he gives was total shit (as far as the justification goes - I've eventually come to agree with the conclusion) but it is a read none-the-less; and I can understand why Luke saying "You given zero reads" might have annoyed him somewhat. Nowhere near to justify the reaction, but it didn't come out of thin air.

[Val89]

~First of all, just reading the progression of his scum read on JamesTheNames compared to the progression of his scum read on me, the scum read in that game just looks way more genuine.

Remind me again (briefly!) why you think my read in this game isn't genuine, again? I've seen wallpost after wallpost, and I'm

still

not sure what is causing you to think that.

I mean, feel free to ignore any and all evidence that I present, because everyone assumes I am just "so tunneled" - but, still thought I would share the things that stood out to me :/

I think it's very amusing that you criticize me for my 341, and then literally, in the same breath, express the same sentiment that drove me to post that...

[Val89]

Hey, maybe we will get a read list out of Val anyways -- just one read at a time

So far, I have found him to have

Portia and Pav as town

Zyla and Marci and Alstro Null <-and I am assuming Not_Mafia, as well, although I did not see it explicitly stated

Me and Umlaut as scummy

Or perhaps, since as you identified, I have given a read on all the slots, I just want people to actually go back and actually read my ISO; and while they are in there, maybe they would find something worthwhile to discuss they missed the first time.

Maybe, instead of a lighthearted joke, you know that's why I want people looking through my ISO for my reads, and you don't want people doing so in case they start reading the argument against you more closely, which is why you are trying to spoonfeed them here.

[Val89]

So far, I have found him to have

Portia and Pav as town

Zyla and Marci and Alstro Null <-and I am assuming Not_Mafia, as well, although I did not see it explicitly stated

Me and Umlaut as scummy

Since they are out there though, that list comes from my post 219; if you want to go read it.

I'm not seeing what others are seeing regarding Zyla, and they are still null for me currently, as are you, Marci. People say you are pinging town, but maybe it's something you have to played with you previously to pick up on. Not_mafia also remains null for obvious reasons.

You picked out the Zyla and Marci reads as null; but didn't see Not_Mafia explicitly stated?

Since then, my Marci read has been edging a little more on the town side.

I've literally no idea what Zyla has done to deserve sitting at E-2 though. Two to the votes seem to be 'Zyla's coasting', and I've already explained why I think that could be fairly applied to a lot of players in this game. Umluat justified his vote in his 199 by saying "140 -- another tell here: explicitly saying "I'm unvoting because it's not RVS" as if RVS were a formalized game phase is something that more often comes from scum"; noting first that I'm not sure why he describes it as "another tell" given I can't see anything being described as a tell; I've also no idea what the issue is - scum more often treat the Random Voting

Stage

as a phase of the game?? I imagine there are plenty of players who think that; me among them. Luke linked an article explaining the theory on it earlier.

[Val89]

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

Early on, I entertained that possibilty. There have been times in this exchange I've started to think there is a chance he is just widely wrong town and he so deep into a tunnel he is spaffing out stuff that makes zero sense to the rest of us because he wants to beleive it so much.

Hell, I was guilty myself of it D1 in 2068. But I tell you what - even though I beleived so strongly that James was scum on D1 in that game, never,

not once

, did I ever feel to need to do, or even consider doing what Luke did in 324 in order to make my case.

There is just no world in which even the most deeply tunneled townie makes a concious decision to quote a post of mine and snip out the part that answers the question he then poses after quoting it. Make no mistake - it was a concious decision. The answer was in the same paragraph as what was quoted; you have to read it in order to select it, in order to remove it from the quote.

It doesn't matter how deeply tunneled a townie is, how convinced they are of their own argument, they don't have to resort to dirty tricks like that to make a case. I imagine even

scum

have a moments pause before doing that, wondering if they will get away with it or if they are just making it too obvious they are scum. He must have known I was going to point out what he had done, and he has to decided that the risk was worth the reward, that even when I did point it out, town were going to be paying so little attention to our exchange it didn't even matter.

It frustrates me beyond belief that he has been proven to be right.

I'll say it again: Read the second to last paragraph of post 99. Read the part of Lukes 324 in which he quotes from that paragraph and look what he has ommitted. Read the question he asks after, and then come back and tell me Luke honestly beleives the case he is making.

[Val89]

And of course you immeadatly pop up to spam the thread with some more obvious bullshit.

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

Are you seriously trying to sit there with a straight face and say "I still do not think that Val has provided any new logic or explanation for WHY scum!me would be worried about that, when Val suggested that the scum team was Luke+NotMafia -- and then stated that we should flip NotMafia first"??

[Val89]

I am engaging with the information! You are telling me that Scum!you would have been overjoyed to have been paired with your scum buddy D1, even if it was accidental????

Here is the reason scum!you might have acted the way you did.

If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

Here, let me state again in case you missed it.

If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them

.

[Val89]

I am like 99% sure that Val is scum here, but I am going to try (emphasis on try) to not go so hard anymore, because I don't want to be the reason that someone does not want to keep playing on site.

When I saw this, I had NO idea why you would be suggesting this, but I think I've just had the epipthany.

This would be

absolutely terrible

scum play is even one or two of the other town actually spent five minitues reading and thinking critically, but they won't - and you knew this was site meta, didn't you? You knew that all scum you had to do was spam obvious bullshit over and over again and eyes would just glaze over and go "nah, two people argueing with posts longer than five lines; must be TvT" and you would get fucking

townread

for obvscum play.

[Val89]

I am engaging with the information! You are telling me that Scum!you would have been overjoyed to have been paired with your scum buddy D1, even if it was accidental????

I thought you stopped saying that Not_Mafia was my scum buddy?

If exactly Not_Mafia was my partner, then maybe there is scum motivation.

If you did not think that Not_Mafia was scummy, then there is not one.

I addressed this.

I could have suggested you were scum with ArcAngel and there would have be reason for scum you to be upset by that!

while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

[Val89]

My point was that there was no reason for me to be worried about getting eliminated when he was suggesting we flip Not_Mafia first (and, in this theory, Not_Mafia was no longer my partner from his PoV)

Hell, I could have suggested you were scum with the ghost of Queen Elizabeth the First on an invisible account, and there would be reason for scum!You to be worried about attention falling on your slot!

[Val89]

There is a distinct difference between someone making a suggestion that a scum player is scum with their actual partner
and someone making a suggestion that a scum playing is scum with someone who is not their partner.

I post 393 to be further evidence that he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie

Let imagine we are back at post 1:

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Not_Mafia!

Hey Guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Zyla!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Val89!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with ArcAngel!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with VFP, who isn't even playing this game!

Hey guys! I think the mod might have made a mistake with the setup this game, and it's just Lukewarm who is scum on his own!

Go on, tell me again which of those I could have gone for that scum!You would have been overjoyed with, and could have in no way led to anyone looking at the Lukewarm slot?

There is no difference in the slightest

, whether you've been paired with a townie, with your actual scum buddy or even a fictional character.

Again:

if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

[Val89]

Open Question for the thread; instead of answering.

Not a suprise.

[Val89]

Specifically the last six posts, eh? Not just "last few posts"?

Let me go and have a look whats in the seventh you don't want people looking at.

That would be...post 388; the very post that led Pav to say

I'm not gonna say it breaks this game open or anything -- we are talking about one sentence amidst pages of argument -- but it's shady to cut out a conditional that changes the entire tenor of what he was saying.

Best not have town look at that, I guess.

[Val89]

val is ur read on alstro still the same as in 219?

Honestly, I'm starting to wonder more and more as the thread wears on. I was able to pick out a clear and obvious townvibe from the last game that I've just not found in this one. They were basically my pick for MVP last game; and I'm not sure what Alstro's done here. This is more gut level than anything, which is why I've not been in any rush to come out and say it.

who would you rather be voted, if zyla and luke weren't an option?

I may well be a lone voice here, but I've found a fair bit not to like about Umlauts post - and I haven't really been all that satisfied by the response. I'm not sure it's not a suprise that if you can't see why Luke is obvscum here, then I would rather my other scumread was getting voted, but there is such a gulf between the two I am in no rush to move my vote.

[Val89]

I would think the fact that it causes you to think that's there's scum in [Luke, Val] would mean it was useful, whether or not you liked it

Amen to that!

[Val89]

There is a distinct difference between someone making a suggestion that a scum player is scum with their actual partner
and someone making a suggestion that a scum playing is scum with someone who is not their partner.

I post 393 to be further evidence that he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie

Let imagine we are back at post 1:

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Not_Mafia!

Hey Guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Zyla!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Val89!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with ArcAngel!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with VFP, who isn't even playing this game!

Hey guys! I think the mod might have made a mistake with the setup this game, and it's just Lukewarm who is scum on his own!

Go on, tell me again which of those I could have gone for that scum!You would have been overjoyed with, and could have in no way led to anyone looking at the Lukewarm slot?

There is no difference in the slightest

, whether you've been paired with a townie, with your actual scum buddy or even a fictional character.

Any chance of an answer to this, Lukewarm?

[Val89]

so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

If that's the case, how about we circle back to this:

Let imagine we are back at post 1:

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Not_Mafia!

Hey Guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Zyla!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with Val89!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with ArcAngel!

Hey guys! I think Lukewarm might be scum with VFP, who isn't even playing this game!

Hey guys! I think the mod might have made a mistake with the setup this game, and it's just Lukewarm who is scum on his own!

Go on, tell me again which of those I could have gone for that scum!You would have been overjoyed with, and could have in no way led to anyone looking at the Lukewarm slot?

There is no difference in the slightest

, whether you've been paired with a townie, with your actual scum buddy or even a fictional character.

3rd time of asking, Luke. The question is, in which of those cases is scum!Luke overjoyed to have been scum read.

I would have thought you would have been very keen to answer this as it appears to me to be pretty central to your argument that I must be scum because my read on you can't be genuine, because town!me would have known you would have actually been happy to pick up a scumread.

[Val89]

@Val, I am purposefully avoiding entering into a 1v1 with you again.

I know you are. I noticed that as soon as you detect the first pings that people other me might be starting to switch on that you are doing scummy things - Pavs 400; the vote from Not_Mafia, a clear example that shows why you are talking crap, you no longer want attention on our interactions.

If anything, I think I am pretty obviously town in that 1v1 (whether you agree with my case on Val or not) -- so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

Come again? You think its better for you (even as scum???) for people to sift though it; but you are puposefully avoiding drawing attention to us two again?

That is why your case in 99 did not make sense. You set up a scenario that could possibly have been the basis of an associative read between me and Not_Mafia, but then preambled it by saying that you were not scum reading Not_Mafia, but thought that I was independently scummy.

We've clearly established it was NOT an assocative read. I think it's pretty evident that there is no reason for scum to be "overjoyed" to be scumread, either independantly or with someone else of either alignment early on D1 when people are throwing any old crap around.

Can someone OTHER than lukewarm read my 99 and tell me if it doesn't make sense, please?

[Val89]

Convenient, that.

Your case on me is that you don't think my take in 99 can be genuine; and you've gone to great pains, to the degree you have move that 1.5x times the number of posts of anyone else in this thread, to keep restating that case - but the second we might actually be drilling down to the essence of that case, you no longer want anything to do with it?

This isn't a

new

1v1; this is the

same

point, but now people are engaging with it. If you think people arn't engaging with the case and sorting you properly, why wouldn't you want to help them out by cutting out the waffle and drilling it down to the essence?

Again:

he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie ----
Like, this is the entire thing I have been trying to talk about respect to his read.

The main reason I was scum reading you is that you're read on me does not seem genuine

He stated that he was leaning my action to be more likely to be scum, and the stated reasons were nonsensical.
I pointed that out, and he never revisited that read on me. ---- He was not genuinely trying to read me.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this issue around if my point in 99 that scum!you had a reason to be worried about being called scum read, regardless of whom you were paired with, is central to your case that both my case on you is rubbish, and also the reason why I must be scum; and it's so solid you purport to want to go 1v1 with me on D1.

Yet, we just start getting to the heart of it, and you want to disengage. OK. I'm sorry, I can't find a town!Luke justification for that, however hard I try. Even if you were worried people were switching off from it and it was clogging up the thread - this is the point people ARE starting to look at it - Not_mafia came in with a vote on side, and you and Pav are now having a 'side' conversation about it after he said you did something that could be taken as scummy.

[Val89]

I am not trying to avoid a discussion of why Val is scummy, but I don't think it makes sense for me to continue having that conversation with Val.

Notice how he tries to frame this as a discussion as to how I am scummy, when clearly we are in "This is why Lukewarm is scum" territory.

If this washes with anyone, I will however bear in mind for my own future scum games - if I start getting too much heat - 'Nah, the person making this case is scummy, so I don't need to engage'. As long as the rest of the town can't be arsed to any sorting, job done.

[Val89]

Pav, the only townread that's shown some inkling they are actually started following our 1v1 a bit and found something of yours to be scummy, and suddenly you are all over him in a "side conversation".

He spotted your snipping my posts to change the tone of them once, I trust he will spot you cherry picking quotes in that little manuever, too.

[Val89]

Alstro, Is there anything in particular you can say about Marci that puts her over, say Pav? I've had a look through your ISO, but the only reference I can find is a vague note that you are "liking [her] more and more" in 373.

I also noticed while looking that you say in 293 that a "A Val flip would give information for sorting Portia, Umlaut, and Marci in my opinion.", when you were asked about it you said "I think Val being town makes you [marci] and Portia a little more likely to be town" (311) but I don't think you've ever explained why you thought that.

The reason I ask is (I'll have to go back and check) but I don't recall ever making a strong read in either direction in our previous game without giving reasons why. That's a nice bold colour you've chosen for Marci, without giving much if anything in the way of justification.

Are those two orange players (Umlaut and Zyla) null reads, or is that meant to indicate they are slight scum reads?

[Val89]

I think we all know by know that if I try and ask Lukewarm some questions, her will just wave it off as "ahh, scum is asking, I'm not engaging", so can someone do me a favour and ask Lukewarm for me?

Would you mind asking him why he things shortening quotes misleadingly is a dumb play to make from town?

While you are at it, would you also ask him why he chose to omit "If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say;" from his quote of my 217, and why he ommited "That awkward moment when you Freudian slip that you know the guy you are pushing is always going to flip town. " from the 236 quote?

Thanks in advance.

--Val89.

[Val89]

Luke's The "Not_Mafia, but also Not_Mafa is standing out to me in strange ways" tier: Not Mafia

Luke's The "Not_Mafia, but also Not_Mafa is standing out to me in strange ways" and that's enough to recommend them for a lim tier: Not Mafia.

If that's all you got for why you think Not Mafia should be the lim today, you can put him in my "I would rather die before I let obvscum push them as a good lim without pointing out how scummy that is" Tier, ya feel me?

[Val89]

Yeah, I'll give you that one. I might need to hone my skills in that department. At the moment, I tend to look for people doing things that ping me as scummy, then I scumread them for that.

Speaking of which:

After playing like 4-ish games with Not_Mafia, I am against a Day 1 Not_Mafia elim, and generally suspicious of people who lean into eliming him Day 1 -- he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push. Plus, I have also found him to be a pretty good scum hunter, and would like to see any pushes that he leans into before I personally try to sort him.

I don't have any experience with Not_Mafia, but I think 128 Luke talks a lot of sense. Something must have changed since then, I guess. That's fine, people change their opinions as the game goes on, not going to criticise you for that. Let me go see what scummy things Not_mafia might have done to make you think he might be worth limming since then.

*Opens Not_mafia ISO, reads posts from 128 down*

Oh, he started giving indications (like the 'non-vote' and talking of a 'scum you') that he might be starting to scumread you. So, what you meant in 128 is that you would like to keep him around to see what lean/pushes he makes, just as long as they aren't directed at you?
I'm also wondering to myself why you are pontificating to the room about if there is maybe an appetite for limming not_mafia, rather than actually making a case or dropping a vote - would that be just a little

too

obvious, perhaps?

By the way, I kinda like this sort of jokey, sarcastic style we seem to developing towards each other, do you think it might help town actually start paying attention to us a little more, rather than just scroll past when they see our avatars?

[Val89]

Because misleading people as town is generally a bad play??

Would town you ever intentially mislead people by snipping a post, then?

If Val can show show a space where I omitted something that showed he NOT 100% sure that I was scum, of if he can show show a space where I omitted something that showed he WAS worried about me being a tunneled townie -- then maybe he would have a point, that I shortened too much to the point of being misleading

Sure, thought I just did, actually.

Spoiler: Val's tone after 214

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players

In post 217 Val

ALSO

Wrote:

If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say

That would seem to indicate I was NOT 100% sure about it, no?

[Val89]

Dude, you are acting like I have not already been talking about Not_Mafia

453 - 455 - 473

Your reaction right now is a bit wild.

Are you town reading Not_Mafia enough that you are ready to go out and hard defend him here?

Yes, but all of those posts come AFTER Not_Mafia did the things I said. You made 128, Not_mafia starts soft-SR you, and apart from asking why Zyla is being wagoned, and to say Umlaut hasn't contributed at a time that statement was true, thats ALL he has done, and then comes your 453 - 455 -473. That would seem to support my point.

I'm not town reading Not_Mafia; I'm not sure what I would be hard defending him against. I will hard defend against the idea that we should lim someone I'm not finding scummy, and I fail to see how anyone can be at this juncture, unless it's for lack of content; which I am happy to call NAI unless it continues. I certainly don't think we should be considering limming him until we have a response to your questions.

No, I bloody well don't. Policy lim him for what, exactly? Making the same Jester claim everywhere and having a reputation for quickhammering in non-newbie games?

If it's for lack of content, then it's the mods job to prod them, not for town to lim them.

This still stands. I still don't see any reason for limming Not_mafia; policy or otherwise. I, too, would appreciate a little more content and some answers to your questions, but to ask them and then suggest we lim a slot before we get them? Sounds to me like you might not actually be that interested in getting those answers.

If that counts as hard defending Not_mafia in your eyes, then yes, I am hard defending Not_mafia.

I have also been resisting the Zyla wagon for much the same reason. (340,385)

[Val89]

I'm going to go on the record here and say if you go back and look at the last page, posts 486, 487 and 489 add literally zero content, and if Lukewarm was truely worried about spamming up the thread, those could easily have been ommitted.

I conjecture that Luke is doing so deliberately in order to make that page look longer than it needs to be, that you will see *another* back and forth between Val and Lukewarm, and skip it. Please don't. If he doing that, you can expect there to be some good stuff in here. Worthwhile reading, perhaps.

[Val89]

Even if I were able to deduce who you scum partner is today, I would still be recommending we lim you today, because you are the one doing the empty posting I refer to above.

Scum you has form for this. Here is Pav, talking about your scum game:

Anyway you threw enough garbage into the water that it worked

I would

LOVE

to remove the source of the garbage in the water this game, and I think we would stand in a much better position to find the other scum who is may well be staying back and laying low. Again, you are now approaching 1.75x times more posts that me, the second most prolific poster, and have more posts than Portia, Umlaut, Not_Mafia, Marci, Alstro and Zyla combined.

If you really need an answer, with you off the table, and you should NEVER be off the table, you can look at 408. Alstro is gradually moving into that zone, too, but isn't there yet; and I wouldn't be limming Umlaut over you today in any world.

@Everyone, I did not want this to get buried in the 1v1

On the other hand, you DO want the rest of it to get burried??

[Val89]

Fair enough.

Can I make a suggestion, though, seriously?

If you are really, actually worried about important stuff getting lost in the 1v1; can you refrain from posting things like:

'Oh no Val's angry'; (486)
'Oh , perhaps he isnt!', (487)
and 'Oh no! We are in a 1v1 again! It'll would be such a terrible shame if this discussion got clogged up with one-liners that are devoid of game-moving content, right kids? ' (489)

I suspect you are doing it deliberately, but on the off chance you aren't, then serious advice: that might help just a little bit.

[Val89]

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

Incorrect. Don't get your info from obviously scummy slots; folks, because this is the sort stuff they will try and slip past you.

The source you are looking for are posts 361 and 364.

To wit:

I'm not arguing that its bad advice in a hypothetical sense, I am disagreeing that Umlaut posted it with the intent of throwing out some hypothetical advice, I think he was fishing, and fishing for something very specific, whilst looking like he was giving advice.

[Val89]

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

You see how this works in Lukes eyes; if Not_mafia is town, then that makes him just a little bit more scum. If he is town, then that makes me just a tiny little bit more town. Why does a Not_mafia town flip not make Lukewarm +++scum, given he *is* the one trying to rally up votes against him; from what appears to me to be very little?

[Val89]

Now, now; I don't disagree with

everything

you say.

I agreed with 128 you, for example:

After playing like 4-ish games with Not_Mafia, I am against a Day 1 Not_Mafia elim, and generally suspicious of people who lean into eliming him Day 1 -- he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push. Plus, I have also found him to be a pretty good scum hunter, and would like to see any pushes that he leans into before I personally try to sort him.

I also agreed with:

Because misleading people as town is generally a bad play??

And that the Zyla wagon was bad.

I just disagree with Not_mafia flipping town meaning you only deserve a little bump in your scumpoints, is all. I think if Not_mafia is town, that gives you a fair bit more chance you are scum. You and others are welcome to disagree, but don't expect me to sit here and not say it.

[Val89]

Well, given that you said he was a pretty good scum hunter; and he has given at least some indications he is following the game, I would have thought it might well be an idea to give him the chance to do a bit of that scum hunting before we decide to give him the chop, no?

If the game is still crawling along and we are in danger of a no lim, and people still aren't making a stand; or if he comes in and demonstrates why he seems to have a reputation to make some players recommend a policy lim; then we can talk again, but you said it yourself - he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push, and I don't think we are at the point where a nolim is a danger today.

I must I say, I know I am a newbie and everything, but I am rather suprised you seem to treating my stance on this as something unusual or out there. I'm suprised there aren't more people saying the same.

[Val89]

I guess I misunderstood the application of the activity rules:

If you receive a prod, you will have 24 hours to post in the game thread. If you do not respond to your prod within 24 hours, you will be replaced. Additionally, if I have to prod you three times, the third prod will be an automatic replacement.

I took that to mean your slot would be up for replacement 24 hours after the first prod, if you didn't post; not that you would move on to a second prod.

If, as it appears, you only get replaced after the "final prod", we are looking at potentially 48 hours before anything moves again, not 24 as you suggested Lukewarm, right?

[Val89]

Curveball: In the last hour or two I've come to TR Umlaut.

After Zyla's vote, I was going back through the ISO and preparing to work up a post outlining the reasons I was scumreading Umlaut in case that was the direction we were heading, and in the process of doing so, I've decided I was wrong.

The biggest reason I was scum reading him was the self-contradictory offering of Portia as a secondary wagon with the reasoning that Portia had given Umlaut "no reason to think they are town" when evidently that wasn't the case from 199. I also found a few other things not to like about that 199, but I have come to think those things - the misattribution of posts, the "another tell" remark, etc - are more likely the result of a player in a rush rather than scumminess.

The smoking gun, however, is the 317 discussion around whether NM would make a good cop target. I said I had reasons to consider that to be scummy, but was not in a position to explain why. I still don't want to discuss this in detail, but Umlaut's subsequent play around that is certainly not the way I think scum would have done, which is to keep me in the elim pool and try to get a couple more votes on me.

So, given that, I am starting to wonder about Zyla again. Luke was fairly insistent about finding out from me who I would be wagoning if he wasn't an option, and I made no secret that I would consider Umlaut next. I do wonder if Zyla's choice there was specifically because of that. She obviously isn't going to say so, but I am pondering if there

was

something in that wagon in the first place. I'll have to go back and reconsider.

[Val89]

Another thing: I've seen some describe my pointing out the contradiction in Umlaut's reasoning for offering Portia as a wagon as a 'hard-defense' of that slot, and I'm probably risking adding further fuel to that fire.

I, however, think Portia's behavior, in turning up obviously and self-admittedly l intoxicated, and getting over-the-top prickly about minor issues - and the subsequent disappearance - is more likely to indicate personal issues rather that disappearing for game relating reasons such as having rolled scum and not know how to play it.

I for one will be starting again from null once the replacement checks in.

[Val89]

Is Not_Mafia also due a prod at this point, perhaps?

[Val89]

What's the likleyhood THAT vote isn't going to count, either?

[Val89]

also i still think that one of luke/val should be flipped in the future just for safe measures

And if the first one you flipped happened to be town, what then?

[Val89]

Would you mind letting the gentleman answer? I'm sick of your shit and I'm trying to sort. K thx.

[Val89]

I know this isn't the most oppotune time in the world, but I am hosting guests this weekend, and while I'll try and keep an eye on proceedings from my mobile, I can't promise I'll be around.

@Mod: I'll be on V/LA until sometime Sunday evening BST.

Before I go; an explanation as to why I am not moving my vote. TL;DR: Lukewarm is obvious scum, and he ought to be the lim today 100%. There is no justifcation in my eyes for flipping anyone other than Lukewarm today, and I won't be assisting in doing so.

The case for scum!Luke, as breifly as I can:

Spoiler: He's been caught doing some obviously shady stuff

I know you guys have had enough of Me v Lukewarm, and you've just seen post after post and decided it's TvT for the pure single-mindedness of it without actually drilling down and evaluating the case, so, if you don't want to take my word for it; take someone elses. Luke never addressed this apart from to say my post was 'dense and hard to read' but as Pav pointed out, what he had cut had changed the whole tone of the post. It was then quietly dropped.

Unforunately, that's the one case it's actually come to light because I literally had to beg for someone to do the work and give step by step instructions on how to get there. It wasn't the only time. If you want more, and you actually do find yourself with the motivation to actually evaulate the thread rather than writing it off as TvT (which is actually what Luke and partner want you to do, by the way, so when it comes clear I'm not scum, they can just be like "oh, Luke didn't know, he was TvT, let him live" - so look closely at the people pushing that narrative); you might want to check out the spoilered side conversations, the misrepresentation of my positions (eg: 513), the 'flailing scum' tell, and the 'please look at these specific number of val's posts' (403 - count back them yourself if you don't beleive me.

Spoiler: The piviot to Not_mafia

Lukewarm has recently been making a case for limming Not_mafia. It appears to be based largely around what he considers to be a different 'tone' to small number of posts NM has made, particulary 436; but while he made a big song and dance about the 'tone' of a 7 word post, he never addresses the

content

of that post - Why? Because Not_mafia's actual input into this game has been a bloody good point, and Lukewarm has wanted us to focus on

how

not_mafia said what he did, not what he said - that Lukewarm doing what he has been and scaring off town sorting our two slots is a good outcome for a scum!Luke.

Spoiler: A good outcome for scum!Luke

And it certainly has been a good outcome, so much that he ignored addressing the point and just continued to do what he was doing. For a very recent example, compare his response to 595, and the response to 601. I think the intent of my question was to help identify the wierdness Alstro then picked up, and lukes response was "I'll let him answer". My response in 597 might have been short, but it was because Luke did exactly what I expected him to do and was waiting for, and I wanted to shut it down sharpish. He was hoping I would debate him and we would end up with another page 20 (be honest, how many of you actually read that page, or just quickly scrolled through it because you saw our avatars going back and forth?). Once it was clear that wasn't happening, and someone else made the same point, then he wanted to pick up towncred for seeing the same thing and 'let Shrek answer'. Then why did he answer for him when I made the same point, 'joke' (or rather LAMIST) or not?

Like I said, I'll be trying to keep up with the thread as I can on my mobile, and I hope I'll be able to take a few moments away from my guests to weigh in again at least once before the hammer falls on somebody; but if that somebody is anyone other than Lukewarm, I think you will be making a big mistake.