Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended
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- Val89
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All,
I've played with some of you before, and I'm glad to see all two of you back for more. For those of you don't know me, allow me to introduce myself - my name is Val89, and I'm known for opening my games by posting what appears on it's surface to be a load of crap and can't possibly be alignment indicative, but actually completely deduces the scum team in my first post. If you don't beleive me, allow me to refer you to the game in question. Yes, a sample size of one, but that is 100% of the games I've played that aren't ongoing and thus fair game for discussion. Not bad odds, I am sure you will agree.
So, I have to say my attention has been immeadately drawn by not_mafia: Clearly, if we consider only alignment at this stage, ignoring the possibility of a serious mod error, there are only 2 possiblities: Not Mafia is mafia, or Not Mafia is not mafia.
There are 9 players in the setup, of which 2 are mafia. That makes the probablity of case A, that Not Mafia is Mafia, as 2/9ths; and conversely, case B, that Not Mafia is not mafia as 7/9s.
Let's now consider another Non-Not Mafia player from the list, lets say, for sake of example, Lukewarm. The same possibities apply - either Lukewarm is mafia, or Lukewarm is not mafia. But Lukewarm is not Not Mafia, because that would be against the site rules precluding playing in the same game under two different names, so Lukewarm HAS to mafia. This logic can be applied to any other player you substitue for Lukewarm, with the sole exception of Not Mafia, meaning that 8 out of 9 players in the game would have to be mafia. Clearly, this is a contridiction, and so our initial assumption is wrong.
If you instead consider the alternative posibilities that either Not Mafia is mafia, or that Not Mafia is not not mafia, then we resolve our contridication. While this doesn't give us any clues as to any of the other playerbase, returning to our example, Lukewarm being not mafia is fine, if not mafia is not Not Mafia. Thus, either Not Mafia is mafia, or Not Mafia is not Not Mafia, and since Not Mafia CLEARY IS Not Mafia, then Not Mafia is mafia. Easy
VOTE: Not_Mafia- Val89
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Post 25 is the thing of substance, obviously. It doesn't matter if you think the logic can be reduced to "Not_Mafia's name is Not_Mafia"; I don't agree that's a fair summation of the argument, and tells me you haven't engaged fully with it, by the way; but the argument itself isn't the substance Im hoping to draw - I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment - either the person I direct the post at, or myself, and that the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.In post 31, Lukewarm wrote:what thing of substance did they bring to this game?
And Lo and behold, it has acheived just that. Look who immeadatlety jumps to Not_Mafia's defense, and with a vote no less. I imagine you noticed in that previous game it was the 'target' of the post who came in and tried to defend as if it were a serious scum case, but hell, I will take their scum partner doing so on their behalf. In fact, it's preferable, given that we now only need to chose who to lim first - Not_Mafia, or Lukewarm.
Even if the remaining scum gets a kill off tonight, that still leaves 6 town versus the one we chose to leave alive today, and that's got to be a town victory, so I don't really suspose it matters. I'll leave my vote where it is for now as a result, but I am open to moving it to Lukewarm if others have an argument as to why that might be the preferable order for the lims.- Val89
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You what? What sort of mafia player tries to make push a meta read on someone without having first actually read the ISO. I know it can vary from game to game, but you do know the first 4ish post puts us firmly in RVS territory, right? Of course you do - I'll tell you what sort of mafia player does this; scum, trying to pick up some easy towncred for indicating they have gone to the effort to do a metadive. It might have worked too if you hadn't been silly enough to admit this.In post 38, Lukewarm wrote:(also, I did not notice any thing about your target, I only looked at like the first 4ish posts in your iso)
Of course, admitting that you are splashing out a meta read without having read more than 4ish posts is almost too scummy to actually be scum, that I actually think that's what you want us to assume - that you have to be town. Hiding that behind a spolier tag indicates to me you might have known that, and I have to say, engaging in WIFOM this early in the thread does nothing to convince me I am on the wrong track, here, Lukewarm.
In any case, it's your scumbuddy who is sat at E-2 right now, so I am interesting it watching if they try and distance themselves from you, or if they elect to just completely ignore the fact you are being read as Not_Mafia's scummybuddy, not mention it, and hope we don't notice.- Val89
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I think you might have misunderstood Lukewarm. I am he will correct me if I am wrong, but he was trying to suggest that I have posted nothing of substance to THIS game thus far, not that I posted nothing of substance in 2068.In post 42, alstroemerial wrote:Val was one of the more substantive posters in 2068
I'll let you read my ISO and decide if you come to the same conclusion. Personally, I think it's self evident that having deduced both scum partners by midway through Page 2 would count as something of substance, but to be fair to him, I didn't deduce him as the scum buddy until AFTER his 31.
I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.- Val89
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If you try and read my confident conclusion through the lens of a newbie player who has 100% accuracy at deducing scum post-1, that it might help unbaffle you.In post 47, Lukewarm wrote:The idea that any town player would already be ready to decide who should be the Day 1 elim on page 2 baffles me
Of course, if it turns out I am wrong this time, then I might just have to face up to the fact that my post-1 reads may be NAI, but until I see the flip, I won't know that, will I?
As you will see if you read further into 2068, I eventually decided someone else was acting more scummy than my post-1 pick, and moved my vote to them. The person I ended up scumreading ended up being a town PR, so in hindsight, it turns out I should have just stuck to my guns on that first post-1 read. Stands to reason I will take that experience into my future games, no?- Val89
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Oh, I agree completely, but 1for1 might well be reasonable, at least for the first couple of pages. I'll be sure to let you know if anything else pings my radar. I'm not adverse to adjusting my reads, particulary such early ones, if there is a reason to do so.In post 57, Zyla wrote:7for7 is probably not the best way to play tbh
By the way, does anyone else have an opinion if Zyla's post counts as a potential Buzzword scumtell?- Val89
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In post 63, Lukewarm wrote:However, I am pretty confident in my ability to have a solid read on her by the end of Day 1 -- I will keep you posted
Interesting. Is that because you've played with her before, and have managed to correctly read her by the end of Day 1 in the past?- Val89
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In post 73, alstroemerial wrote:Even before putting his first serious vote on, he really thought it through with a longer post and reasoning instead of just, "welp."
Unless I have reason to differ, I imagine you can expect the same in this game, too.
In which direction is that lean? I am reading 'having your eye on' as 'scumlean', but I just want to clarify because that could potentially be taken in either direction.In post 73, alstroemerial wrote:I have my eye on Zyla a bit already because [ongoing games] but it's more of a lean than a read at this point.- Val89
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I'm sorry, I didn't follow what that means. Would you mind rephrasing?In post 81, alstroemerial wrote:Normally the 'blowing up nothing into something' bit would ping scum for me, but I just don't think someone whose Topics List has so many games would fall into that trap.
I get what blowing up nothing into something means, but why do you feel it's only scummy coming from an inexperianced player, is that is what you are trying to say?- Val89
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Sorry, I'll try that one again:
I just want clarify because I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here, your claim is that had an RVS-ish vote on my slot after reading 25, which you did no take at face value, but your subsequent vote in 75 was a serious, I'm actually scumleaning this slot, vote because you take my claims that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the D1 elmin and that you were defending Not_Mafia at face value?
Is that how I am to interpret 86, or am I missing something?- Val89
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For fuller context, here is a little more of the relevant part of 33:
I currently reserve judgement on whether your decision not to quote the operative part of that sentence - that I am hoping someone takes it as a serious indication of someone elses alignment - was deliberate, and if so, for what purpose, until I've had a closer look at your other games.In post 33, Val89 wrote:but the argument itself isn't the substance Im hoping to draw - I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment - either the person I direct the post at, or myself, and that the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.
The "discussions of substance" I am hoping to take part in are those that follow after someone has done as I said I hoped in 33. I'm still not sure if we are in that realm or not with you. I'm not defending anything, I was simply asking, and it looks like I will have to ask you again, if we are to take your 86 as meaning you that claim you didn't take my post 25 at face value, but that you are now taking my statements that you were defending Not_mafia, and that we should lim him today, at face value?
What either circumstance means for your alignment I am unclear, but I thought it would help get a clearer picture if I asked you to clarify which set of circumstances we are actually in before I attempt to make that deduction, or perhap decide it's NAI.
Could you clarify the intent of your 86, please?- Val89
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Thank you. At least we got there in the end.
Quoting more of 33 changes things because, as I said, the operative part of my statement there was that " I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment...and that the following discussion is of substance". In other words, I consider the discussion that follows from my 'serious-shitpost' as substansive only when someone takes something I say while doing so as being serious.
Honestly, I thought it was self-evident that my statement that you were defending Not_Mafia, or that Not_mafia should be the lim today were as non-serious as the inital post. I read Pav's retoricial question at 70 as inidcation they picked that up, Alstro seems to indicate they thought so in 73 (as well as noting the ambiguity I was feeling about ifyouwere taking it seriously also), and I think, but it's a little less clear, that Zyla was saying so as well in 46.
Marci seemed to be taking it at face value in 50, and in fact the only person I wasn't sure about was you, Lukewarm. I took your 32, and your answer to my 37 which mirrored how the discussion went in game 2068 that you had read through the first part of that game, understood and agreed with my intent, and we were basically bantering back and forth. I also took your "Maybe Val is just strange." and piviot to Alstro as confirmation you hadn't really taken me seriously until you came back to it in 86, which is why I've gone to pains since then to clarify the situation.
For the record on my part: I do not think Not_Mafia is actually scum due to any logic I give in 25, I don't think he should be the lim today, and as such at present I would unvote him if another vote came his way, and I don't think Lukewarm was deliberately jumping in to defend Not_Mafia in 31 because they are scum buddies.
Now we know the Lukewarm did take my 33 onwards seriously, we can get to deducing what that means for his alignment. We now have something of substance to discuss - ie: why Lukewarm in particular took me seriously when at least a handful of other players don't appear to have done so - and I consider that job done.
The concenus may well be that it makes Lukewarm townleaning, or that it's NAI, but I'll open up by saying my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy. The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy. That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it isobviouslyRVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.
I know it isn't much in isolation, but it appears out of everything we've got in the thread so far to have the highest chance of actually being alignment indiciative, so I would like to explore this.- Val89
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In post 99, Val89 wrote:Marci seemed to be taking it at face value in 50
I acknowledged Marci's comments in my post.
Interesting choice of quote from Alstro's 73. Seems like this one would be the one actually relevant to the topic at hand:
Are you really trying to spin 73 as Alstro having taken me seriously? I can't speak for them, but I have to say it reads pretty clear to me - if they thought you might be "playing along", then they thought there was a joke of some kind to play along with. I'm sure they can weigh in on the issue.In post 73, alstroemerial wrote:As a result, Luke's response threw me off a bit because it seemed to be taking it completely at face value. So I wasn't sure if Luke was, like, playing along, or...?
Maybe someone else can help me out, but I'm not sure how else to characterise this if not "over-the-top sensitive"...In post 100, Lukewarm wrote:Anyways, I am fully ready to death tunnel Val now- Val89
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???In post 102, Lukewarm wrote:For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read- Val89
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Yes, that is precisely what I felt like responding to, because your entire argument as to why you feel my read can't be genuine begins as follows:
But, you are very clear in post 96 that you are aware that it wasn't a serious read. Whatever argument then follows from an obviously false premise is worthless, no?In post 102, Lukewarm wrote:For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read -- So his theory appears to be:
Trying to tell us you think 'Val is scum because he is trying to sell us an argument he doesn't genuinely believe. He can't believe it because it doesn't make sense to me when you look at it from this chain of reasoning that begins with him backing off his scum read of Not_Mafia' when you've already explicitly said you don't believe the Not_Mafia read was serious, and I've confirmed that to be case, seems borderline trying to insult our intelligence, frankly.
My 'read' in 99, which in actual fact was more "here is something I think might be scummy about Lukewarm, what does everyone else think" than a scumread, isn't predicated on scumreading Not Mafia in the slightest. The thing I think might potentially be scummy is the fact that you took something I thought was obviously non-serious, that you were defending a scum partner, as serious, when at least some other players did not. You've tried attacking the argument by sarcastically suggesting that others DID take me seriously, and used, for example, selective quoting of Alstros post 73 to suggest they thought I was being serious when a read of the whole post makes it clear they did not. When I've pointed that out, you've moved on to trying to frame an argument that my read can't be genuine on a false premise - and when I pointed that out by simply quoting the obviously contradictory parts between 96 and 102, you then attempt to frame me as scum for pointing out that contradiction.
My 99 was simply pointing out something that pinged me as scummy, but I entered into this conversation believing with further exploration it may well turn out to be NAI or even perhaps town motivated. I have to say, your reaction seems somewhat strange. I don't believe you are a bad player, so why you feel the need to resort to sarcasm, selective quoting, and obviously disingenuous arguments as town, I don't know.
I still feel discussingTHISis likely to lead to posts that allow us to start forming reads more effectively than discussing some other RVS stuff like Zyla's 10 for instance, so I think inviting others to give their thoughts on the matter is the appropriate way forward here.- Val89
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I haven't seen a reason to move it just yet. While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.In post 113, Portia wrote:Val, if the NM read wasn't real, why have you left your vote there for ages?
In post 99, Val89 wrote:Now we know the Lukewarm did take my 33 onwards seriously, we can get to deducing what that means for his alignment. We now have something of substance to discuss - ie: why Lukewarm in particular took me seriously when at least a handful of other players don't appear to have done soIn post 99, Val89 wrote:The consensus may well be that it makes Lukewarm townleaning, or that it's NAI, but I'll open up by saying my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.
I felt like taking something that wasn't meant to be serious as serious, if others have correctly deduced that it wasn't meant to be seriousIn post 99, Val89 wrote:I know it isn't much in isolation, but it appears out of everything we've got in the thread so far to have the highest chance of actually being alignment indicative, so I would like to explore this.couldbe, but isn't definitely, alignment indicative. If it was AI, my initial thoughts on the matter were that it was probably scummy rather than townleaning for the reasons I give - that it may indicate a hypersensitivity to the slightest shade, even if that shade wasn't serious; but I didn't actually know for sure that we weren't bantering back-and-forth until post 86.
This is my 3rd game of mafia, and previously, things that I've considered to be alignment indicative haven't been, and if I have a weakness, it's that once I've decided a slot pings me as scummy I've started to see everything that slot posts as being scummy. It's not impossible - I initially scumread Zyla in 2068, and her responses slowly convinced me that I was wrong, but mostly I've held the view that slots I start thinking are scummy are scummy right up until I see the flip even when others, even basicallyallthe others, are reading them as town. I've only played two games, and one of those is still on-going and thus off-limits to examples, but it's been a theme in my play I am aware of and trying to actively guard against.
Because of that, although I had that ping from Lukewarm, and I've seen some issues with his response like I've already identified - the selective quoting, attempting to portray me as susing him because he is voting me etc, but I am actively trying hard to read everything this game through the lens of "is there an alternative explanation for this, could this slot, while doing some things you think are scummy not actuallybescummy.
If it helps everyone understand where I am, I will unvote here. Whilst I think Lukewarm has started to ping me scummy, I am not throwing my vote down on them and calling them a scumread until I have more reason to do so, in an attempt to avoid another Val v JamesTheNames situation.
UNVOTE:- Val89
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Let's expand that 106 quote just a tiny bit more:In post 110, Portia wrote:
Is it pre-flip associations time? Let me get the popcorn.In post 106, Val89 wrote:that you were defending a scum partner
Did you really take that to mean I was making legimitiate pre-flip associations?In post 106, Val89 wrote:The thing I think might potentially be scummy is the fact that you took something I thought was obviously non-serious, that you were defending a scum partner, as serious, when at least some other players did not.- Val89
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Mainly because I don't want to put too much stock in what most people seem to agree when I've not played with him, and I don't think I've yet read a newbie game with him in it.In post 121, Zyla wrote:Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim
Early days, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he will be trouble, or any harder to read than anyone else in the game.
I said what I said because I wanted to be clear that when I said "I still think NM should be the lim today" I was 100 percent in non-serious territory. Just in case people thought I was obviously being non-serious about the reasons, but I do actually want NM gone today - I don't. I'm not in the 'policy lim NM' camp either at this stage. He gets as fair a shake at showing himself town or scum in this particular game as the rest of you, despite my RVS vote falling there.
Well, I took Alstro to mean they were confused if Luke was playing along with me or not because that's the same way I felt at the time, until they cleared it up after prompting. If you think we are both wrong, best just to wait for Alstro themselves to weigh in.In post 121, Zyla wrote:You both really seem to like taking what the other person is saying out of context- Val89
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There are a few people not voting seriously at this point; you, Zyla, among them, I beleive. If he maintains that position when we are further in the game and have good cause to be voting people seriously and he isn't, we can talk again.In post 126, Zyla wrote:he's claimed himself that he's not voting seriously, which at least to me seems like an anti-town red flag (whether or not he's scum), what's your thought on that?
Of course.In post 126, Zyla wrote:wouldn't you be willing to eliminate him if more information pointed to him being scummy?
I have to say if you are "pretty sure" you have scum in your sights, but you decide up front you won't be able to convince other people of the fact, perhaps your argument isn't as strong as you think it is. You don't think it's worth pushing your "pretty sure" scumread until you've sorted all the other slots? I would say if you are sure, at least giving your best attempt to pushing that slot all the way to the flip today is the way to play towards the town victory, no?In post 127, Lukewarm wrote:I am just pretty sure Val just is scum here -- But I also am aware that I am not the greatest at convincing people to follow me (I would say that the Newbie game against Zyla and T3 was the exception, not the rule) -- So I accept defeat on trying to convince anyone over the prior discussion- Val89
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I'm not aghast in the slightest. Please continue to discuss it freely; I am hoping you aren't the only slot that decides to comment on my 'bunch of content' because I put it out there specifically to get reactions. I'm sorting you, and others, from how you approach trying to sort me from it.In post 132, Lukewarm wrote:You put out a bunch of content, and now seem aghast that we would try to sort you based off of that content.
I regret nothing, obviously, given I've takent he same apporach here as I did in my previous game because it has generated something meaty to discuss. It might have drawn a scumread from you, but I am fine with that, because I am not feeling my slot is in any real danger of being mislimmed here, and there is a chance it's scum!Lukewarm pushing it, and if so, a chance you will reveal yourself as such while persuing it.
I don't see what is anti-town about trying to drive the game from RVS into 'here's something we can discuss that has some chance of being alignment indicative'; and it has come in both games from someone taking my posting seriously. I'm happy with that, and I would call it pro-town before I would call "Hah you have a funny avatar lets vote X" or whatever.- Val89
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Well, at 71, I myself didn't see what could have pinged Not_mafia about the Lukewarm slot; but Lukewarm himself says he's found Not_mafia to be a pretty good scum hunter, so perhaps NM can elighten us.
If you are asking me why I didn't scumread NM for the fact he didn't move the vote at the time of making that post; I will point out that, while I am definetly getting some scumpings from Lukes slot since then, I don't think it's anything to vote over just yet, so I don't think it's AI.- Val89
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I'm not sure that NM ismost certainly notthe play today; I was trying to get across the fact of my earlier assertion that he should be the lim definitely falls squarely into RVS shitpost territory. He might well turn out to be the lim today, but I have absolutely zero reason to call it either way yet, and I don't think anyone else realistically can at this point.
Honestly, I am starting to feel a little bit like I am being asked if I am a Mason with NM. I can start to understand where you get your reputation for that sort of thing from.- Val89
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Is that vote supposed to indicate you are scumreading Portia, Lukewarm?
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VOTE: Lukewarm
I unvoted because people seemed confused as to wether or not I seriously thought Not Mafia should be limmed, but I didn't put my vote back on to anyone because I didn't really have a scumlean on anyone at that point.
Now I do. It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.- Val89
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I find the offering up of Portia as the second "good wagon" as little strange. Umlaut commented on a huge chunk of the thread in 199, but the only thing I see in reference to Portia are two comments; first that he "likeIn post 201, Umlaut wrote:This or Portia look like good wagons to me rn. Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages.Portia's intro" and the second that 166 is "way over-the-top reaction from Portia and I don't like it" - something Portia has already acknoldged and appologised for in 166.
There isn't a lot in Portia's iso, but it's enough to just start pinging him as town for me; and that's based on 112, 120, 168-169 and the second part of 196. All of which has gone without comment in Umlaut's 199. It is notable in it's absense.
Umlaut concludes that neither Zyla nor Portia has given him "any reason to think they're town". Can I ask, Umlaut, when you say "I like Portia's intro", do you mean it in a difference sense to 'Portia's intro seems town'?- Val89
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Frankly the tone was unreasonable and I am glad we got an apology, but I disgree there is no reason for town!Portia to be miffed - he gave a read in 120, perhaps not a great one, but a read none-the-less, then Luke comes and comes and say's he's reading his ISO and can't find anywhere he has taken any sort of stance. At that point Portias ISO is 7 posts, and the last one is the read, so it's not buried.
The tone of the reaction WAS over-the-top, but I suggest there was good reason for a town player to be annoyed at another player for suggesting they have given no reads when they clearly have. This seems supported by the fact the item Lukewarm was told to insert was the very read he missed.
From the rest of your post, I take it your stance is less "Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages." and more 'I thought Portia's introduction seemed town but I decided that didn't mean much and think he is now worth wagoning after seeing his 166?'.- Val89
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No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players; but to spend the time dismantling it now will rob me of the opportunity to use your case on me to sort other slots.
I'm waiting to see who else picks up on the stuff I plainly see and comments on it - T3 has explained they have this way of 'town telling' people by seeing who else picks up on things they have. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's worth looking at. If I go ahead and spend the time dismantling your case now, I rob town of the opportunity to learn what they can from others reactions to it.
If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say; but I know you've precisely zero chance of riding me to a mislim today and I'm not all that interested in defending myself at this point.- Val89
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That wasn't the only case Umluat did that - He also says 115 "by luke" is "actually kinda town", but it's one of my posts.In post 218, marcistar wrote:im not sure if 58 is the right post, its linking to a luke post instead of a val post.
He might well do, but I've explained in 217 why I am not. If nobody else picks up on the reason why it's a non-argument by the time it becomes pertinent, I'll explain, but not now.In post 218, marcistar wrote:val have u ever responded to this? i kinda think luke might want you to..
In post 218, marcistar wrote:val do you have reads on people who arent luke? lol
I've said already Portia has started pinging me as town; I'll say Pav has done so likewise. I'm waiting for Umlauts' response to my 213 before I decide if anything we've seen from him is alignment indicative.
I'm not seeing what others are seeing regarding Zyla, and they are still null for me currently, as are you, Marci. People say you are pinging town, but maybe it's something you have to played with you previously to pick up on. Not_mafia also remains null for obvious reasons.
Alstro I'm not sure about. I've not picked up anything scummy from them, but in my previous game I was able to get a townvibe from them very easily from the get-go, and I haven't this time. Maybe it's because they entered the thread a bit later during last time I played with them because of a listing error, and I just don't know how to parse their early RVS-style play, so lets call them null for now, too.- Val89
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My answer to both of these is that I am hoping the response of the rest of the player list to Lukes 'case' against me will help me do just that.In post 223, marcistar wrote:can u take a break from ur luke fight then and try to further ur reads in one of these nulls o-o if u have any questions about my posts ill respond whenever i see them (:
also val ill be honest, 217 makes u seem a bit scummy imo, it just looks like excuses so that you don't have to respond to luke. if you really dont want to tho, ill drop it.
The other consideration is when some explicitly says they are ignoring my slot, and suggest they want to move in another direction; then either re-iterates that or tries to defend that as being the pro-town move several times (182,186, 188, 207) - and then suddenly:*bam* wallpost!with the express justifcation of because "fuck it", then I have to wonder what the hell, you know?
If a possible scum is trying to distract me (or everyone else) from something that was happening in the thread just prior, and feel it is so important as to abadon their apparently strongly held and defended beleifs on what is pro-town to do so, then I feel like I would be playing into their hands by going along and allowing the distraction, you know?- Val89
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In post 234, Lukewarm wrote:--If the consensus is we flip Val, and he does flip town
That awkward moment when you Freudian slip that you know the guy you are pushing is always going to flip town.In post 234, Lukewarm wrote:--If the consensus is we flip Val, and I am wrong
Let's have a good laugh about this moment in the post-game together, shall we? Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now- Val89
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He did link an interesting article in 86, didn't he Alstro?
You would think it follows if he linked it and recommended we read it, he must have read it himself.
One has to wonder why one would recommend we read an article that takes a very very strong stand on something being anti-town - and then go and do that very thing in that same game if he was town, eh?As a town player, when you vote for yourself, you are voting for the only player in the town that you know to be not scum: Yourself. This means that your vote is inherently unreadable and inherently unhelpful . Some mods go so far as to ban self votes from their game, which is not ok either. You should be able to vote for whomever you want, and when town does this it is bad play, and not out of the purview of the game.- Val89
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I'm not sure it's really nesscary to respond to any points you've asked me to weigh in on, although I haven't seen any in the last few posts - while you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.
I'm not sure why any mafia thinks they can link an article that says "you should never EVER EVER vote for yourself in a game of mafia unless by some way it helps achieve your win condition. A good example of this is Mr. Flay voting himself to achieve a lynch as scum, so that he could end the days discussion and not let the town have information", whilst trying to achieve a lynch and end the days discission, and then say with a straight face that you "should be pretty obviously in [your] town game".
Is this what the mean by the term openwolfing?- Val89
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I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."
I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.- Val89
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Are you in agreement then that if something comes to light that leads you to be confident I am not scum, you are prepared to vote off Luke without hestitation?In post 279, alstroemerial wrote:I would really not expect scum to keep bringing this up, going so hard, and drawing so much attention. He has also basically set himself up for an elim if Val flips town, which is not something that scum would do- Val89
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But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then youIn post 279, alstroemerial wrote:but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpfulstillwouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?- Val89
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Give over, there is zero chance are TvT. You've basically claimed scum at this point, and are only hoping you can throw out enough "please vote with me, I've been right before" appeals to rustle up enough votes to get a mislim, but it ain't happening.
I'm not sure who you are hoping to convince when you have to back pedal - you've already said everyone should consider you voting anyone else as a scum claim, so it looks like that ship has sailed to me. What are you going to do, sit on your hands the rest of day one without voting anyone and hope the rest of us turn on Portia or someone without seeing either of us flip?- Val89
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The lamo defence - for when the 'lol' defence isn't quite scummy enough.
Don't worry, I'm not entirely if you were actually concerned about my feelings or if it's theatre for the benefit of others, but if the former, rest assured that you've not made the game unfun for me at all.
We are all going to have a good laugh about your 234 in a couple of days time, I am sure. It's situations like this make me glad I signed up to play.- Val89
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I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.In post 296, Zyla wrote:"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me
For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."
Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.
He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.
I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.
Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?
I would agree - if there is the slightest chance you can see where someone is coming from, and in Luke's case, I can't in the slightest.In post 296, Zyla wrote:"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me
For all the text the wall post contains, it appears to essentially boil down to "Val has been shitposting, now he says he's stopped shit posting, but how can be sure? I don't think his read on me can be genuine because although he says he was shitposting I think he wasn't and is only saying he was now because I was scum reading him."
Fine. I can understand when there isn't much to go on in the early game, you have to generate your reads from very little, and I was basically the loudest voice and was using it to say some deliberately spicy things; just as I did in 2068. If you did only read it in a very surface level manner, and later read "My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss" you might misunderstand that to mean I actually believed some of the crap I wrote in the RVS vote and I don't intend to shit post going forward; but I explained that wasn't the case in 93. Perhaps that was glossed over by a tunneled town!Luke? Might explain it, he says a few times he's worried that's the case himself; but then comes 127.
He says he slept on it, re-read everything, and has come to the conclusion that I am just scum. I am just scum because I've openly claimed that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim, I've accused him of defending Not_Mafia, and I've seriously criticized him for having not done a full meta dive before voting on page 2. I've come out of the gates and openly claimed I am big scum in a transparent and obvious way, and you are all fucking big dummies for not seeing it.
I think if this argument had come from, say, not_mafia, you would have all laughed and assumed it was a troll; but the fact that it's come from Luke means it gets some credibility? I'm not buying it in the slightest, and I am really, really shocked that anyone is giving it the time of day.
Since there are two players now that I thought based on previous experience were going to read that wall post, then rip this obvscum argument a new one in seconds, but actually haven't, I have to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't quite as obvious as I first thought; so if you want me to actually respond to the case, someone is going to have to summarize it in a way I can understand and I will attempt to do so, because at the moment all I read is I am being accused of playing a game where I pick some obvious bullshit reason to lim someone, then seriously prosecute that claim all the way to the day 1 lim and somehow think that outting myself as scum page 1 will lead to a scum victory, and my only real answer to that is "really?", you know?- Val89
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I imagined, reading that, that there would be some strong, cohesive argument as to how I am scum that was strong enough he can be bold enough to consider me voting him a straight up scum claim. I don't see how ANYTHING in 214 ties in with that, yet alone a 'leading reason'.In post 188, Lukewarm wrote:
It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple daysIn post 187, marcistar wrote:
hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-oIn post 184, Lukewarm wrote:^^Nice, a scum claim
I am also seriously struggling how to tie up someone who says the stuff in 176, with the same player making the case in made in 290. He is supposedly town, he is worried that active scum might take over the thread, but he is going to give someone he reads so strongly as scum as to go 1v1 free reign to do so? None of this is town behavior, folks.- Val89
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Since you are here, Umlaut, would you mind answering this? I'm trying to get a handle on what your stance of Portia actually is, given that your assertion they've given you nothing to think they are town seems to conflict with your first line of 212In post 213, Val89 wrote:From the rest of your post, I take it your stance is less "Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages." and more 'I thought Portia's introduction seemed town but I decided that didn't mean much and think he is now worth wagoning after seeing his 166?'.- Val89
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Speaking of hyper posters, I've noticed that despite making a big song and dance about how they are restricting their posting, Lukewarm has over double the post count of the next active poster - myself - and I dont feel like they have delivered double actual content.In post 302, Umlaut wrote: "Keeping the game alive" by having two hyperposters tunnel one another into the ground forever is not actually good for the health of the game anyway.
It's also interesting to note that scum!Luke is a more prolific poster than town!Luke has been, at least in the newbie games I've looked at:scum!Luke made 200 posts before elimination by D2; and we are at 105 here not even halfway through D1. Town!luke has much lower numbers: 145, 119(although he replaces in on pg22) and.
I'm not saying it's 100% alignment indicative, but it just another ping in a growing list.- Val89
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And I've said, repeatedly, that I am not sure how you expect me to engage with it when it is clearly non-sensesial, because it's based on a false premise. I pointed that out and you simply went and susbtituted the words, but retained the same false premise - that the whole argument is predicated on the fact that either: a) I seriously accussed you of being scum partners with Not_Mafia, or b) I wasn't seriously accusing you, but scum!you would be happy to be falsly accused because it gives you town cred -In post 304, Lukewarm wrote:The thing, the one thing, that I have repeatedly said that he never engaged with, was this section of 107 / 102 :implying of course that I WAS seriously accusing you. It makes zero sense.
In the end, the decision players have to weigh up is this - Is it more likley that the Lukewarm who plays these sort of town games, and has built up a reputation as a good town player they think they can cash in on, has seriously decided that I rolled scum, came into the thread, and made it as fucking obvious as I can that I was scum by doing these things with a straight face:
or is it more likely that we are seeing play closer to the scum!Luke D1 of this game - make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality? I think the answer is self-evident.
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I disagree. I think in combination, the evidence is pretty strong to point to the fact that Lukewarm will flip scum if we flipped him today; lets' call it 95% sure. I know you've obviously come to another conclusion, that if I am not scum, that Luke is just a tunnelled townie, and if the 'sensible point' is why I don't seem concerned about the risk of being mislimmed D2 in the unlikley 5% case Luke did flip town if he were the choice today, then I can only say that I am confident that this playerlist would find reason to find me town anyway, in spite of a green Luke flip, if we were to need to have that discussion on D2 (which I really don't see happening!)In post 302, Umlaut wrote:This is actually a sensible point; if I were town!Val in this situation I would definitely prefer to try and get you to back off and do something productive instead of continuing to come back to this.- Val89
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This is interesting. I saw you put Umlaut in the pool of people a Val flip would give info on earlier, and I wondered if you had seen the same thing I had.In post 311, alstroemerial wrote:I think Val being town makes ... Umlaut a little more likely to be scum.
Can you explain why you think this, but beleive Lukes' alignment won't be any clearer after the flip?- Val89
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Except it does makes. You state it doesn't make sense, then try and handwave the reason it doesn't make sense with an argument based on false premise, and keep trying to repeat the same argument that still doesn't make sense with different words. We've done this dance.In post 315, Lukewarm wrote:My point was that your scum lean (at the time) as stated, does not make sense.
But fine, if it takes me spelling it out in minute detail for the benifit of those who just see words repeated over and over again and assume it must be a valid argument, then I guess I will have to.
Don't forget, this is the SECOND attempt at pushing this non-argument, the first time Point A read "For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read", and it's simply been sustituted for words that mean the same thing as far as the logic goes. Luke is trying to sell you the story that I am scum because I didn't - for the SECOND time - spend the time and energy pointing out in detail why Not scumreading one player means I can't be scumreading two players with that player in the pair as scumpartners when I had already done so once.
See, the thing is for me, that I don't buy that a town!Luke is stupid enough to actually think that I was saying he and NM were scumpartners if I don't think NM is scum. That's why I think it has be coming from scum. Pick something, even if it makes zero sense, dress it up to look like a semi-wall post, and post it, and repeat it over and over as if it is daming until people's eye glaze over and just accept it must be something. If the target of it points out it amounts to nothing, just change some of the words and repost. If the target doesn't reengage and keep repeatedly point out why it's obvious crap, call him scummy - and if he does engage with you pointing out why it's crap repeatedly, well you've succeded in spamming up the thread with crap. Town!Luke is a better player than this, and it has to be coming from scum.- Val89
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Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".In post 188, Lukewarm wrote:
It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple daysIn post 187, marcistar wrote:
hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-oIn post 184, Lukewarm wrote:^^Nice, a scum claim- Val89
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Why not just quote the very next sentence?In post 324, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 99 HE said, that scum!me thought as much (I have added page breaks to the following quote to make it easier to read)
My question to Val is, and has been:In post 99, Val89 wrote:my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.
The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy.
That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum.
{snip}
then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early.
Why would you expect scum!luke to behave the way you outlined in post 99? Why would I need to discredit you there? Why would I continue on that push once you explicitly said that "Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm," ?
He has still failed to engage with that, or reconcile his scum read on me.
In post 99, Val89 wrote:That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.
Like, I know you are scum and all, this is your job; but I am wondering what benefit there is for the other 6 townies I know must be out there to sit and watch you pull this sort of thing without comment.- Val89
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Look. Real talk now. This stuff from Luke obviously isn't for my benefit - it's for yours; lazy-ass townie that is trying to coast this game without putting in the work or engaging with the thread.
Read Lukewarms 324; and note question he asks, and note which paragraph he is quoting from. Now actually click my 99 and read the paragraph quoted from. Pull them up side-by-side if he helps. Note what has been "snipped" from my post, and how it answers the question.
The reason this guy has double the posts of anyone else in the thread, and your eyes are glazing over after having to look at another round of this Luke v Val shit is no mistake. When you read his ISO, he wants you to see that snipped post, take the easy way out and not bother checking what is being posted.
The fact that Lukewarm has decided he can pull this sort of stunt is because not only have you let him get away with these sort of arguments all thread, some of you have even started TOWNREADING him for it. I'm not going to blame scum for being scummy, that's the game, but I feel like you lot don't give a shit about this game or something because its a newbie queue.
I said I was going to enjoy this game, but If you can't be arsed to actually do the reading and dig in, and are just going write it off as "TvT"; then start putting your votes on me and run me up to E-1 so we can move on.- Val89
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No. I am saying you saw me suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and that in the process of reading me and discussing my bullshit claim that other town players were going to at least consider the possibility of scum!Luke + scum!Not_mafia, and the same individually, if even for a second, if even just long enough to go "LOL, what bullshit", and reactively, scum!Luke, or any scum player might see "scum + their name" and have a 'uh uh, better stamp on that' reaction.In post 326, Lukewarm wrote:So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --
and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?
(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)
There is no need for Not_Mafia, or anyone else for that matter, to be scum or not scum, and for my read on that slot to be serious or non-serious, for the general prncible thata scum player might not want any sort of adverse attention on thier slotto hold. It's not that difficult to understand. That's exactly what the sentence you 100%deliberatelyommited from my 99 says, and you know it. Town can afford an early mislim or two, even if it hurts their game, not so with scum.- Val89
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It was no sort of assocative read in any manner whatsover. You remember in 2068 when I opened by saying MiniMB must be scum because she lied to us by saying she was "first!" when the mod was; and that her using a handshake emojii and the 'y'all' instead of 'you' meant she was scum? Then MiniMB seemed to take it as an actual serious scum read and you said this:In post 329, alstroemerial wrote:Question for Val about this discussion of post 99. I think I'm getting confused by the semantics. Is what you were saying an associative sort of read, which is that you don't think NM is scum, but Luke being scum makes NM more likely to be scum because of the defense? I don't mean what you think now, but what your original intent in the post was.
And then remember how the MiniMB slot did actually turn out to be scum?In post 100, alstroemerial wrote:MiniMegabyte: Similarly to Cook, I haven't seen Mini before but I thought an SE would be playing differently, but maybe I'm just wrong. Posts 58-62 seemed like taking an obvious joke (25) completely at face value, and that's pretty much all we've gotten. It was weirdly defensive off of Val's joke-accusation.
Remember when in 99 I suggested that Luke seemed also to be hypersensitive in the same way andmaybethat might be AI (I had a sample of size of one, remember) and maybe we should talk about it? The only reason you are confused about how this is somehow dependant on it being an assocative read, or conditional on Not_mafia being scum is because Luke has been spamming the thread with noise to suggest such, and you've brought it.
It is not an assocative read. It doesn't depend on not_mafia, or anyone else, being of any particular alignment. To borrow your phrase, I was suggesting that Luke might be "weirdly defensive of a joke-accusation", that was all. Please, put Lukes' bullshit to the back of your head, read the last 3 paragraphs of 99 again, and tell me if you are still confused after that.- Val89
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And this is EXACTLY my point. You did care - you cared enough to think I was being fucking serious, and you cared enough to spend the energy you have done trying to build a scumcase on me for it.In post 331, Lukewarm wrote: I personally doubt I would have cared, even if it was the exact right combo.
Are you really trying to say "Look, I can;t be scum because I'm not playing exactly as I did in my last scum game"?In post 331, Lukewarm wrote:I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067
Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him
When I've brought your games, I've done so pointing out where I think the similarities are closer to how you played that scum game than how you played your town games - not that you are playing a repeat of it. The important part to me is how you pushed StrangeMatter, not how you interacted with Hockey.- Val89
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Self-imposed post limits out the window, and still no answer to this. You would think explaining "the main reason you are scum reading" someone you are actively pushing for elimination would be important, if you gueninely thought they had "scum claimed", no?In post 322, Val89 wrote:
Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".In post 188, Lukewarm wrote:
It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple daysIn post 187, marcistar wrote:
hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-oIn post 184, Lukewarm wrote:^^Nice, a scum claim- Val89
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Zero resemblence?In post 334, Lukewarm wrote:This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me
It certainly resembles it to me. Early case on me because you think my read on you "wasn't gunine" in some subjective sense; I'll let others decide if so-called 'townleading' towards the mislm of your choice is what you are attempting to do here.In post 308, Val89 wrote:make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality
You are saying that this can't be the same, because you and your scumbuddy backed off it when Strange was at E-1? I don't recall you having managed to push your case to E-1 yet, so it seems strange to offer that as as a reason this can't be the same. And by strange, I mean, desperate. - Val89
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