Mini 2270: Spring Fling!

[Dunnstral]

AYYYYYY So last time I was maf, and like, we didn't solve in the hood at all, and I kinda liked that sooo I don't plan on posting significantly in the hood, like I'd rather just dump thoughts in the thread, so yeah, but TOWN!!! LET'S GOOOOOO I only accept dance proposals from town! We are endgaming! gg. tryhard mode activated. maf be scared

You liked that you didn't solve in the hood when you were mafia last time and you want to not solve in the hood again this game?

[Dunnstral]

Bell posting at all towny.

Is this the bar we've set for him?

[Dunnstral]

Honestly maybe we just quarantine me/Ydrasse and make us policyleave if we ever get to ELO, two birds one stone.

I don't believe that you would agree to leave out of policy at the end

[Dunnstral]

I know im playing with fire but me asking ydrasse to dance vs prism asking andante.
one is extremely scummy and the equivalent of "anyone want to dance?"
but the other is like apparently so towny that the dance is happening.

how does that make sense

Who has decreed the first extremely scummy and the other extremely towny?

[Dunnstral]

I lean town on Andante, I agree that this seems like how they play as town. I am uneasy about Prism due to posts 40 and 74. I don't really believe that they think they will really get policy voted off of very little at the very end of the game. Or that they won't even try to defend themselves. So that rubs me the wrong way right away because it doesn't feel like something that would be followed up on, or like a real commitment.
As for their pairing with Andante, just having Prism making moves this early makes me nervous when combined with the above, as I can see this as setting up for later.

[Dunnstral]

I'm not commenting on 175

I'm saying that you proposing to somebody makes me suspect that you might have a plan you are working with, and that makes me nervous

[Dunnstral]

I don't think Bell looks bad here but I do want to go against the notion that just posting means they can't be scum

I liked that mykonian gave a lot of reads with explanations early on and that it is believable

Noraa is meh because 142 doesn't really make sense, 158 seems to be painting a narrative for something that isn't actually happening which is weird. 177 is also weird because they're not really paying attention to what is being said, which is that they are going to post very little in the pt.

Lukewarm has the worst posts among the gents so far in my opinion. I believe them about their energy level, but they ask a lot of questions that are low impact. Right now if I had to choose between the gents who have posted it would be here unfortunately

[Dunnstral]

Well, alright then, but it's also not like I'm known for my passive townplay, and while aggressive early in D&C I was openly sandbagging Day 1 because I thought it'd be fun.

Either way I'll go to bed rather than create a back/forth web. I'm skeptical that you overshoot so several in your reaction to D&C, from virtually no respect to earth-shaking, but maybe I'm wrong...and I am willing to wait!

I wouldn't be voting for you right now if that was an option, I'm just skeptical

[Dunnstral]

maybe I should intentionally hit 200 now so I don't have to deal with talking later...

It's a limit, not a goal

[Dunnstral]

I don’t know what to make of Dunnstral’s new level of stoicness.
They were always stoic, but this is brick stoic.

What is a joke? Who is rob? What is life? Error error. Beep. BOOP.

I'm not sure what this is in reference to

[Dunnstral]

They’re very serious face and then doubled down on the serious faceness.
As everyone knows there is only so serious face a scum will be early game because they don’t know how people will react to their resting serious face. They’re very serious about this. If people don’t post content 100% of the time then they’re scum: serious face.

Starring: serious face.

idk i looked at some past games and they are very serious face early as scum. probably, idk, they seem to have not played in a few years

Free town points for looking like you're trying to figure things out

[Dunnstral]

lol oh wait is this all cause I tunneled scum!Dunn off 1 line recently... I might need to look into that lol but it's late. I'm tired... not a now thing

200 IS MY GOAL!!!!

Make sure to explain to us what 'this all' entails while you do so.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah, but why aren't you SRing any of the people Sring you?

Both Prism and Lukewarm SR me and I SR them. Thats 2/3 of my SRs .....

3/3 if you include that I placed you at 3 out of 4

[Dunnstral]

in past dances have maf avoided partnering with each other?

I've played a lot of dance games and have never seen mafia pair with each other except for myself

[Dunnstral]

So i need choose carefully and not yolo first person who offers dance with me.

You are unreadable

[Dunnstral]

As of now

[Dunnstral]

can someone explain this lovers vs dancers distinction, cause i don't see anything about lovers in the setup and idk what y'all are talking about

The other dance games worked a little differently, it was simply every pair is treated as lovers and dies together from the start

[Dunnstral]

everyone TRing Dunn is a bad look on it's own. In what game has town dunn ever been townread this way? like if the playlist doesnt look like Cabd ffery peta LLD etc, it doesn't really happen. Obviously this is a very 1 dimension way to explain this read, but explaining it further is hard and I do want to wait for more dunn content to get the most out of the ISO.

So I'm mafia because other people are townreading me?

[Dunnstral]

Those two I believe will think about it because they have already given thoughts on the game that can be judged.

What about Malakittens?

[Dunnstral]

Can you explain why you think Mala is town for my benefit?

[Dunnstral]

They posted 4 whole times in a row and it wasn't zero content.

This argument again? I'm not buying that they're completely incapable of posting as mafia

[Dunnstral]

My reads on the remaining ladies are that fireisred is town and Malakittens + Datisi can both go either way.

I suspect that fireisred is going to want to save Cephrir here. Incidentally I also think that Cephrir could go either way.

Honestly Datisi has some posts I like but I think they can fake it

[Dunnstral]

I mentally blocked off Enchant

I said earlier that they are currently unreadable and I stand by that. Maybe staying unreadable is scummy. It's not clear to me why they think they need to choose carefully in 412, or what they mean by 'fearless'

[Dunnstral]

but why

[Dunnstral]

You guys seem awfully confident that I'm scum based on a fault premise

That me saying 'but' somehow softened my stance, but in reality I was talking about two different things

[Dunnstral]

Propose to malakittens

[Dunnstral]

This is being pushed primarily by Noraa and Lukewarm, both of which have ample motive to flip the elimination if they are mafia

I went from showing up 7 times in Luke's iso to showing up 61 times in Luke's iso while I was asleep because he latched on hard to it. I think we should leave Luke out.

I don't think that noraa's push is nearly as convincing as it's being made out to be

[Dunnstral]

Or am I scum, and Dunn is town, and I am pushing to flip him today, and then literally every singe thing that I said about you being scum becomes completely meaningless because it all hinged on his scum flip, and I even stated that i would town lock you on his flip?

town locking me means absolutely nothing if it opens the avenue to argue that my dance partner is scum and that you want to eliminate zir. scum!you doesn't lose anything there.

Scum can kill 1/2 of a dance pair anyways

[Dunnstral]

For the record, it's not true that I give softer stances as scum compared to when I'm town. And if it is true, then somebody should make an effort towards proving that instead of taking noraa at their word.

[Dunnstral]

What you're doing isn't even comparable. You're making posts like this:

I mean, I already explained why I find dunn scum plausible.

And luke is pre-flipping two players based on both of my alignments on shoddy logic. You've made maybe 3 posts about me and luke has over 20.

But sure, it's all a part of my master plan to have left you out.

[Dunnstral]

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Bell?

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Luke's push on Dunnstral

Re:Nora's read on Dunn.


I have thoughts but they feel convoluted.

I am not consciously scum reading Dunn, but I am definitely not town reading him either.

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is, but I do feel like there is a difference between this game and one where i was ready to hard defend him like in say Web of Lies or Shakespeare.

I kind of like the fact that Noraa is picking up a difference there as well, since web of lies we were both ready to go to bat for Dunn, and this neither of us are town reading him this game.

It is making me rethink my Noraa scum read. Which is annoying because I don't have enough of them as it is :/

My hero solve for day 1 is Prism, Dunn, then one of Myko/enchant.

Not taking questions [just for posterity] thanks!

I think that Dunn should be left behind

propose to Mala

I don't currently trust Prism, which leaves me disinclined to let her do the sorting of the pairs.

Thinking selfishly, I think pairing with Dats knowing that I am his top scum read just kills me day 2, and I think proposing to fire results in fire getting hammer between me and Cephrir, and I am left behind today. So, survival thinking says Mala is my best bet.

Hmmm. I don't want Noraa and Datisi paired.

If we are leaving Dunn behind, I think I want

Me+Mala
Noraa+Fire
Ceph+Datisi.

If Noraa is being left behind, I would want

Me+Mala
Dunn+Datisi
Cehp+Fire

Hmmm. I don't want Noraa and Datisi paired.

If we are leaving Dunn behind, I think I want

Me+Mala
Noraa+Fire
Ceph+Datisi.

If Noraa is being left behind, I would want

Me+Mala
Dunn+Datisi
Cehp+Fire

I am realizing that there are too many moving parts for me to try and get it to where someone can hammer one option or the other. So, I can't really orcastrate this choice, and that is frustrating.

Me+Mala, and then Noraa+Fire, giving Dats the hammer between Ceph and Dunn might be the closest things that I can see. But, I don't really see Fire agreeing to that because he was scum reading Noraa.

Ugh, I have thoughts, and I desperately want to be more strategic in the way that I disseminate my thoughts to the thread, and not just blurt every thought I have out. But I am struggling to find the best way to do it. So, I guess I failed, and I am blurting my thoughts out.

I hated Datisi's 587.

The moment I read it, my brain said that that is a mafia scared of a quick switch in thread perception of their partner. Nora made a case, I started shifting my reads (575), Fire said it was convincing (577). And then Datisi dropped 587.

It bothered me that it didn't call Dunn town, or town case him. It just called Noraa's reasons NAI - pumping breaks on the shift, without committing to calling Dunn town
Then said he was questioning his reads, then said he was gonna do some isos. Sets him up for a new push somewhere else all in one go.
----
So, if we leave out Dunn, and he flips scum, I feel like that town locks Noraa, and makes me more suspicious of Dats. So, I do not want that to be a pair if we are leaving out Dunn.
----

I also didn't like 616, but in a way that is harder for me to put into words.

----

One the other hand, I feel like if Dunn flips town, I feel like scum!Datisi would be less likely to try and pump the breaks on the Dunn read shift. So, I much prefer flipping Dunn over any of the other options (Being me, noraa, Ceph, and Dunn), because he is not one of my town reads, and I think that a scum or a town flip points is enlightening towards both Datisi and Noraa.

Pedit: Datisi just posted a change in stance, and I don't really know who to feel about it :/

I have read through 616->617->618 a few times... I feel like my thoughts are bad.

But my thoughts are that 616 feels like he was realizing that my read on him might be shifting, trying to get a better feel for my stance. Followed by an olive branch. And then deciding he needed to not look like Dunn's partner. But this is an incredibly self centered way to read that interaction, and so it is probably bad.

Like it would require Dats to realize that I paired him with Dunn, and then him changing his stance just in response to me, and that seems unlikely when I think about it logically.

Okay. If I separate out the bad thoughts, I think I am here:

Scum!Dunn town locks Noraa, who could be miseliminated fairly easily otherwise. and
Town!Dunn reverts me back to thinking that Datisi is town.

I will wait to consider the inverses until a later date, because the bad thoughts live in the inverses.

Noraa is currently town in my brain. Ceph is pretty null.

So, I still want a Dunn flip today.

he spent the entire post talking about how dunn is scum and partnered with me, but IF dunn were to flip town, that would say something about both me and noraa. and it's interesting how it's not explicitly said in the post, but the feel i get is that if dunn greens, that noraa is scum. which like, the fact that he didn't outright say it feels like he doesn't wanna draw attention to that part immediately

I actually typed out a more explicit version of

Town Dunn -> Scum Noraa, but then deleted it because I realized that I don't really know if that is true. I think I would need to reevaluate her there.

So, I actually think

Town Dunn-> Town Dats, and a need to reevaluate Noraa.
Scum Dunn -> Town Noraa, and a need to reevaluate you.

But my thoughts are that 616 feels like he was realizing that my read on him might be shifting, trying to get a better feel for my stance.

this part is true

i have reread the posts you have made that page, and even while KNOWING you were thinking about dats/dunn at the time, i still cannot see how i was supposed to see that from those posts, so

Responding to this post feels like one of my posts that serve no purpose, but I have broken the self restraint dam for the afternoon.

I mean, I openly suggested that you and dunn should be paired if dunn were not killed this day phase. And, if you and dunn really are scum together, I feel like that would have been an easy thing to spot. but, :shrug:

Here is a final post of Luke living his life as an open book, and then I am getting off of here for the night, and going to try again to turn back on the self restraint.

Here I was living my best life, reading through the thread. And vaguely concerned that I did not have any strong scum reads other then noraa. Then, Noraa decides to drop zir scum case on Dunn, and rock my world view, because I have had repeated thoughts on Dunn not being obviously town to me despite him having been in our last couple games, but not really having a scum read on him. Just noticing that it wasn't the same. And ze walks in saying that ze also noticed something different about Dunn, and felt like we were having similar thoughts about Dunn especially given our interactions wrt to dunn during and after the web of lies game. It gave me pretty strong "this is a similar mind looking at Dunn" and skyrocked Noraa out of my scum reads. Not even convinced that it made Dunn scum, just that zir and I were picking up the same things. So Noraa Town.

Suddenly, I am not living my best life anymore because I have no scum reads, and that is a sad life to lead in a game with 3 scum in it. So, then I started thinking about the fact that that likely means that the scum team has strong scum players in it. Prism and Dunn are both (in my opinion) very strong scum players that were both chilling in my null reads. So, I started thinking about a world where they were scum, and it made the world make a lot more sense, and why I was struggling to see red. Enter my hero solve of 582.

Boom, bam, ca pow. Dats' 587. My mind is racing. We got a scum team now fellas. That screamed partner reaction to me boys. Lets throw my hero solve away QUICK. New solve, Dunn+Datisi+[enchant/myko/Prism].

Gears are tumbling on how to live in this world. The answer: Leave dunn behind, and do everything I can do to not be paired with Dats. Enter, Proposing to Mala in 592. But wait! I shouldn't let Dats know I am on to him! There is no way for him to die this day phase, so no need to spill the beans right now. See 596. I got a secret, and I ain't sharing. ho ha.

Now what. I am proposing to Mala, how do I thwart the evil plans of the Dunn+Dats scum team. I know. Post 605. We kill Dunn! AND, we don't let Noraa pair with Dats. That will show them. But wait. People might not buy killing Dunn. What is the next best alternative? Pair Dunn and Datisi, OBVIOUSLY. I'm gonna be a good little boy, and cover my bases. Take that scum team.

Noraa posts 606, and my brain short circuits. How the hell do I tell zir why i don't want them paired without revealing my partner pair of Dunn+Dats. This is impossible. How do I stay one step ahead.

I guess I gotta spill the beans. Let my deranged thoughts flow. post 625.

Then I read dat's 616->618. And I typed out a whole thought process on how they were still partners. And then I had a flash back to that Tris game, where I wrote a dissertation on why Chaos and Dats were scum partners, and I was wrong. So, I started second guessing myself, and calling those Bad Thoughts. post 629.

And, since I was seeing those similarities, I started feeling like I should back off of the partner pair aspect of my thinking, and focus more on the townspew that come from the dunn flip (635), and that is my final conclusion of my flurry of thoughts on the whole thing.

Although, me thinking about how similar this situation is to the Tris game, but Dats not seeing it, and instead just calling me scummy did ping me all over again - but i went back to that interaction, and Dat's reaction to that was also to loudly start calling me scum, so :shrug:

I still like my town spews on a Dunn flip, but I am walking back somewhat the scum implications of the flips. We can cross that bridge when we get there.

And *bow*

You have all been privy to the hamster running on a wheel that is my thoughts.

I am going to get off of here, and when I return on the marrow, I shall try to bring back the self restrained version of myself you have all been growing accustomed to.

pedit: I see something I want to respond to, and so I shall before I get off of here.

@luke, it's not about your specific actions, it's about the overall feel your posts give off

Can I ask what my master plan is in this scenario then? If you are town, and I am scum?

Is my partner Dunn, and I am trying to get him killed today, and set up a partner association on you? If so, why would I ever aim to kill off Dunn here? He is better then me lmao. I would be trying to either keep Nora in the death crosshairs, or possibly even falling on my sword for him if I didn't think we could get Noraa though.

Or am I scum, and Dunn is town, and I am pushing to flip him today, and then literally every singe thing that I said about you being scum becomes completely meaningless because it all hinged on his scum flip, and I even stated that i would town lock you on his flip?

----

Too be clear, I am actvely trying to not partner associate you any more, but your argument that I am scum doing this feels bad.

Which funny enough, is making me lean back towards you being town, because I feel like I typed up this exact message to you in that Tris game.

Spoiler: Noraa's push on Dunnstral

ok read breakdown
prism's SR on me is the worst because it's very sudden and doesn't feel genuine. like the thing is this idea of me wanting to beat good players is meh at best in general. on top of that, prism hasn't really played with me much so having that much confidence in a meta tell like that is weird. i liked the intreactions with me re: andante pairing but pairing with andante is still something that just doesn't sit well with me. there's not much other content that can be juiced out of that pairing, but it's just ... a bad feeling. it feels like the exact move an experienced scum player would pull and I cant stop thinking that.

everyone TRing Dunn is a bad look on it's own. In what game has town dunn ever been townread this way? like if the playlist doesnt look like Cabd ffery peta LLD etc, it doesn't really happen. Obviously this is a very 1 dimension way to explain this read, but explaining it further is hard and I do want to wait for more dunn content to get the most out of the ISO.

Lukewarm feels very ... weird tonally. But I think Lukewarm becomes clear with time. So like if it's like day 3 and more than half of the playerlist thinks Lukewarm is scum, eliminate, no questions asked.

Ydrasse I initially thought was town (after all of the assuming i mean) for all of the interactions with me, but I'm actually inclined to take it back. Scum ydrasse is capable of so much that I shouldn't carelessly give a town pass before day 2 at the very least.

and now im bored and dont want to finish this. i might come back and finish things later

dunn will flip scum 9/10 times here

i finished my iso and i want to get straight to the point here. i am paranoid but i am pretty damn certain dunn is scum. if dunn flips town here, i will never say im good at reading dunn again.

i dont know what other people's alignments are to any degree of certainty because i know i've been playing scummily and i know mass scumreads on me mess with my reads. but i dont think dunn is town despite all of that. every other read could be completely wrong, we could have 6 scum, but i dont think dunn can be town.

i have been wrong on dunn before but i dont think im wrong here and to be absolutely honest, me saying this will not matter if i die today. because dunn will float straight to endgame and then people will either lose to them or manage to come around to this read.

on the other hand, if dunn is left behind today, i am cleared with a scum flip there since dunn would obviously be a bigger asset to the scum team than me based on the current game state.

also im not going to lie, im quite sure most of my other reads are wrong at this point. the fact that the gamestate looks like this and everything seems to work so perfectly in my head (scum team is perfectly 3 people, everyone else seems towny) means most of my reads are wrong. but the one on dunn isnt.

i want to get straight to the point here

why is dunn scum

Dunn's just trying too hard to be likable. they're trying too hard to be a good townie and town dunn isnt a good townie. town dunn does their own thing and doesnt care what anyone else thinks.

scum!dunn that i know of doesn't actually *do* much of anything

dunn doesnt really do much regardless of alignment. what's important is how they do the thing sthat they do do.

are there any specific posts that made you think dunn is trying to be likeable?

yes one second

I don't think Bell looks bad here but I do want to go against the notion that just posting means they can't be scum

I liked that mykonian gave a lot of reads with explanations early on and that it is believable

Noraa is meh because 142 doesn't really make sense, 158 seems to be painting a narrative for something that isn't actually happening which is weird. 177 is also weird because they're not really paying attention to what is being said, which is that they are going to post very little in the pt.

Lukewarm has the worst posts among the gents so far in my opinion. I believe them about their energy level, but they ask a lot of questions that are low impact. Right now if I had to choose between the gents who have posted it would be here unfortunately

I had sort of forgotten what scum dunn looked like for a moment but then i saw this post. There's so much wrong with this one tiny post.
"I dont think Bell looks bad here but ..."
no, town dunn doesnt say that. town dunn just says ok stop with bc about bell posting = bell town

the entire read on me was way too smooth. it was just not worded the way town dunn would do it. town dunn would just say like Noraa isnt paying attention and makes no sense.

the lukewarm read ends wiht "unfortunately" nah there is nothing unfortunate to town dunn about lukewarm dying regardless of lukewarms alignment.

town dunn doesnt soften their stances, if that makes any sense. All of what dunn is doing is not giving firm opinions and the reason is so that everything is still in soft clay form. They can play around with it. if one elimination doesnt work, swap it out for another. that solve doesnt look right? throw a different person in. that is not how town dunn works. town dunn's reads are like BAM this is what i think. Changing an opinion isnt a flow-y process, it's more of a bam this happened do you have an issue with it?

people townread softer stances because they dont feel absolute. they dont feel like the person isnt willing to reassess. but town doesnt think about that consciously or subconsciously whereas scum does. scum needs to always have different options on the table because they have many different paths to victory but need to choose wisely otherwise it could be a dead end.

town only has 1 path to victory. town must have the exact scum team dead whereas scum can have any combination mix and match of town dead.

i also feel like another thing dunn is doing is like saying really obvious things.
like saying thinks like "prism is doing this ... which makes me nervous"
and the thnig is that i think that would be somethign that is obvious to town dunn. like town dunn would just be like uhh prism is doing this and expect that you could tell they take issue with it.

agh i am genuinely so paranoid i need a hydra buddy more than ever right now but i really really think dunn is scum and it's agh. i dont know im very nervous to be wrong because im under pressure and my reads tend to break under pressure but i genuinely feel like this is right.

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is

I am actually at a peak low in confidence right now in general. but i just ugh i dont know. like im being tunneled and it's affecting my read on the game in general. and dunn is one of the few people i feel like i can read and theres just a lot of internal paranoia because of the game state and trying to read dunn.

i have a lot of worries about this read because i struggle with my own thought process a lot of the times. like what's going through my head, i kid you not, is like
dunn has to be scum
what if im pushing dunn because i want to live another day
what if dunn isnt scum and then i die tomorrow because i mislimmed them
no no dunn has to be scum
but dunn could maybe say that as town
what if dunn's meta completely changed
what if im being overconfident
no no dunn is scum
oh wait i could maybe see town dunn saying that
oh my god people are agreeeing with me, so im wrong right
wait but thats not a good metric
agh maybe im overconfident
no dunn is scum

this is the best i've ever explained my read on dunn but everyone agreeing still freaks me out. if everyone does end up agreeing, it means the read is wrong. just saying.

you know i really want to say dunn is town simply because prism agrees but that is probably not a good idea.

Noraa can you explain your change in attitude and general approach this game?
What’s the game plan? Why were you more mature this game than usual? What changed in how you decided to respond to people?
Why do you seem a little bit sad at the beginning of the game? Why did you delay your solving? Why did you try to present yourself as patient at the beginning of the game? Why did you ask for a truce with Andante? What do you think of Ydrasse right now?

I’m not sure if any of these questions will help me reach the right conclusions but it’s worth a shot.

i dont want to answer most of these questions because i want to stop playing such an emotionally invested game and explaining these things will only make me more emotionally invested.
i asked for a truce because i dont want a 1v1 with andante on day 1 like page 3. total waste of time for absolutely everyone because no one is going to be able to read either of us off of it. we arent going to read each other off of it. nothing comes from it.

i think if dunn is scum, ydra makes a lot of sense as a partner especially with the early saying wanting to pair with dunn and then immediately dropping that idea. i dont reeally like drawing associations though so tentative.

datisi whcih of me and dunn is more likely scum

dunn

if it wasn't clear, i am leaning towards accepting your proposal, but making decisions in mafia games is scary and i'd rather shitpost a little bit more before actually pulling the trigger

ok i can understand that. i just felt like all this situation can be summed up into that question.
oh wait actually
HOLD UP


i have an idea. it's slightly dumb but think about it. If we leave me, dunn and datisi unpaired, then me dying would confscum dunn. it's clear dunn is a greater asset to town than me. if dunn dies, well that would mean i was wrong on them. and datisi cannot die since datisi is the only lady.

i almost want to say i'd rather we leave out ceph today becuase im going to feel bad about dunn regardless of what they flip. becuase if they flip town, my overconfidence killed them and i die the next day so it's just chaining up town eliminations. if they flip scum, i also feel bad because they could've been alive at endgame and played an excellent game which would have been completely shattered by me. sigh ok whatever. im going to iso a couple more times datisi dont accept yet.
if dunn is town, i'd rather leave day 1 than have them leave

i don't actually think people do townread softer stances as a general rule. i should know, i basically put out nothing but soft stances ever

scum dunn balances it out better than you do. if you are too soft with stances, you look too agreeable and then people think ur just scum thats ok with everyone but yourself

i think dunn is scum and if i thought dunn was town, i would entirely be willing to be left out if it were me vs them.
dunn is on the verge of death. there are only 2 pairs left. Both you and lukewarm have proposed. dunn is absolutely on the verge of death.

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please. lukewarm is like the most transparent town in the world. Like if we leave ceph instead of dunn, that's somewhat acceptable. but it's not acceptable to leave lukewarm

Spoiler: Bell's push on Dunnstral

Noraa’s case on dunn is good enough for me.

All I have to add to it for context is that dunnstral(not sure if they add for or against it)

Is that the last(and only) time I ran into Dunn scum they asked some very inane questions and made some very inane points. Which they did here until transitioning out of it for the most part. I also know that Dunn has joined a lot of dance games so I expect higher levels of investment for him as either alignment. Because he revealed the secret that the more interested he is in a game the more he posts in it.
And I guess because he keeps joining dance games he likes them very much.

Phone post. Woo.

1. Noraa has been unique this game. A lot less aggri, a lot more organized, they gave themselves a time limit of 20 pages and I’m used to them just solving solving solving. So it feels out of character. I’m also not sure what to make of their instant collapse into self-recrimination about a dunn town flip, since they don’t actually do that when they’re town until after the flip and sometimes not even then if I remember correctly. It’s possible it’s designed just to look like they don’t know. On the other hand, they set themselves up as the Dunn expert so it’s a unique situation. I don’t think their credibility will be shot as much as they think, but I also don’t even know why I’m saying this because goddamn, if there’s one thing I don’t need more of this game it’s town reads.

do noraa and dunn have history and is ze usually able to read them well?

Yes. They’ve been consistently good about reading them. I have no idea if it’s luck. Given their reasoning has been down right terrible sometimes. But they were still right anyway. So *wiggles hands*

I mean, I already explained why I find dunn scum plausible.
Primarily because while he always jumps on the complain train when I get town binned as a word of caution.
Some of his questions have down right sucked and I associate that specifically with scum Dunn because he did that one whole time and thus it is always true from now until the end of time.

I encourage anyone interested in what Bell is saying here to read through these and form your own opinions as to why I mentioned Luke and Noraa but not Bell when talking about players pushing me.

[Dunnstral]

3/5 of Bell's push is actually just hiding behind Noraa anyway

[Dunnstral]

I’ve been pretty clear that I think you might be scum independently of what Noraa is saying because I haven’t touched on that argument at all.

Is this true Cephrir?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn also does the huge counter arguments thing as scum.

What do I do as town?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn also does the huge counter arguments thing as scum.

What do I do as town?

You get sassy.

So to be clear, are you saying that I don't counter with arguments when I'm town?

[Dunnstral]

but it looks more sarcastic to me than sassy.

Good enough for me

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Dunnstral]

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please.

mala should accept lukewarm asap though

Which is it?

Or is it "Mala don't make any impulsive decisions... unless it's what I want"

[Dunnstral]

Noraa arguing in bad faith, that's crazy

[Dunnstral]

What is your read on Mala by the way, Noraa?

[Dunnstral]

im scared tbh.
because if dunn is scum, that offers so much information on so many people but if dunn is town, it offers no information and i die tomorrow pretty much every single time. an di think datisi is town so two town die tomorrow if dunn is town.

If this is a real concern, and not simply for showing off.

Simply don't dance with Datisi. There are other choices.

[Dunnstral]

What is your read on Mala by the way, Noraa?

dont know, dont care at the moment.

Great

You should dance with malakittens then

[Dunnstral]

That also stops mala from accepting me, so it's perfect

[Dunnstral]

Since datisi and I have been deemed to always be the same alignment according to the mafiascum experts, I guess it makes the most sense to force us to dance together

[Dunnstral]

Andante scum claimed when they stopped posting after they got theirs.

214

[Dunnstral]

You previously claimed that you do believe that I counter with arguments when I'm town

Now you are claiming I have entered blatant survival mode

Can you clarify what the differences are here?

[Dunnstral]

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Bell?

Do you think that I give softer stances when I am scum compared to when I am town, Noraa?

[Dunnstral]

Can you prove that? I posit that it's not actually true and that I continue to give hard stances as scum.

[Dunnstral]

town you isnt this hard to push.

Didn't seem that hard to me

[Dunnstral]

I didn't ask you how you read me, I asked if you could prove that it was true.

[Dunnstral]

So no, you can't prove it

[Dunnstral]

im scared tbh.
because if dunn is scum, that offers so much information on so many people but if dunn is town, it offers no information and i die tomorrow pretty much every single time. an di think datisi is town so two town die tomorrow if dunn is town.

If this is a real concern, and not simply for showing off.

Simply don't dance with Datisi. There are other choices.

What is your read on Mala by the way, Noraa?

dont know, dont care at the moment.

Great

You should dance with malakittens then

Are you going to propose to malakittens?

[Dunnstral]

I propose to Datisi

[Dunnstral]

town you isnt this hard to push.

Didn't seem that hard to me

really? ydrasse and fire both think you are town. explicitly town.

The bar for me being hard to eliminate is 2 people thinking I am town?

[Dunnstral]

Speak of the devil but know that you're summoning me to your side

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral’s requests for proof is a joke.

How is asking for proof of their claims 'a joke'?

[Dunnstral]

I have a cop guilty on you Dunnstral.
Dunnstral: “prove it” :facepalm:

Like, do you really think that Noraa’s observation requires Zir to go out and quote however many posts is acceptable and then break out a pie chart. Few players do that, and the one time I’ve seen it done recently was by Pooky and he was scum arguing for Mastina town who was town.

What Noraa is arguing is something provable by them, cop actions aren't, and that's a fallacious comparison

To be clear, I am saying they are either lying or misinformed, and that what they are claiming is untrue

Your argument is that Noraa shouldn't have to back up their accusations because they're lazy, but the town should still believe them even when it is contested.

Note that I didn't contest what you said about me earlier and ask for proof, because I think it is partially the truth:

I said you counter with more dismissive arguments when you’re town instead of going into “I will quote every post I can see to bury this argument into the ground because it’s wrongo and this person is wrong and I must stop them because it is my mission to correct every person of every misstatement may this world remain pure and holy and free of contradiction. “ -Dunnstrall scum.

[Dunnstral]

Also, I’ve never seen you try to prove anything in a game of mafia

This is simply untrue

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Bell was in this game

Look how easily they scumread me when I pointed out that they would be the most likely traitor for bringing up traitor for what seems like no reason

And then they latched onto that and scumread me for it and kept that read; the slightest provocation set them off on that path. They are the one who looks 'desperate' as they said
Posts 492, 499, 504, 550, 554

As a sort of exercise, can you figure out Mathblade's reason for voting me?

Have you played with Math since coming back from hiatus?

I haven't. Nacho probably has more recent game experience than me.

I'm not townreading Math.

I'm going to take this under advisement because Mathblade's approach to the game, particularly that bit about 1 but not 2 scum in prism/bork gave me a nasty case of hives. Maybe you can be the counter-balance to my tendencies wrt

I kinda feel the same but I'm not sure how much of it comes from the Dunn wagon basically popping up as a counter to the Mathblade push.

This is what I was looking at when I made the post.

That's a pretty damn curated segment of our trajectories on Math. I'd go so far as to say "cherry-picked".

Yeah.

What you're not realizing is that I'm not trying to prove that you had this opinion, I'm trying to prove that when I was typing up my reply and looking over your posts, this was the impression I got. I also skimmed over something like "It's strange that we're not seeing math in the same way" which was neutral without looking into context

[Dunnstral]

Subject: Open 789: Two-Fold 2d3 [Game Over]

Why would we not

keep in mind I still need to read

You're going to need to prove a positive rather than waiting for someone to prove a negative when trying to eliminate someone

Saying "why not eliminate x" isn't how things really work

This is what I think of bell's argument

[Dunnstral]

Subject: Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

Dunnstrall tends to snap at people that push him. I think his vote is just that. A request for white fire to back up.
I might be oversimplifying a more complex behavior tho.

I regret the MC wagon, not because I think it’s wrong but because I wish we’d done it later in the day so that the game didn’t stall.

Dang, meta is fun

And I mean real meta, the stuff you can link to, not the stuff that is true because you said so.

Incidentally, Bell, can you explain why you are scumreading me here again? I don't understand what is your issue with my questions or why you are continuing to push me here.

[Dunnstral]

I find it immaterial because I care more about what Noraa feels than what they say. As I think they just rationalize the end result.
I think you’d just accuse them of cheery picking if they actually went out and did it and you’d bring up a million arguments through context. You’ve lived through those game and can easily muddy the waters even if ze bothered.

"Muddy the waters"

Either it's true or not. I don't think it is reasonable to be this against Noraa trying to share something that you believe is true.

Or you don't think it's true and you don't care. So you want to eliminate me because of your feelies. OK, well how am I supposed to argue against that?

[Dunnstral]

You're accusing me of something I haven't done

[Dunnstral]

3. You tried to substantiate that

Yeah, I did. And I'm asking Noraa to

substantiate

their claims too

Changing the word from prove to substantiate doesn't change what is going on here. I think substantiate is a better word, your complaints here seem to be that I didn't have mechanical proof a la cop guilty or similar in that game but it's clear that what I did there is what I am asking noraa to do here

[Dunnstral]

You attacking my actual argument or how it was lacking from a different game isn't really interesting to me

[Dunnstral]

I just read over that and don’t get it because:
1. Mathblade wasn’t a traitor.
2. You didn’t substantiate that” thou who has smelt it dealteth it” with any proof whatsoever.
3. You tried to substantiate that they were “reactive” by choosing a bunch of quotes and were arguing that actually “they were the desperate ones” but didn’t substantiate that either.
4. You argued that you were writing all of that to show what you were paying attention to these posts and that this was your internal process going forward. But you don’t actually prove that this is what you were thinking at the time. You just quoted them and asserted it was and explains your mentioned behavior.

This post is definitely arguing for the sake of arguing

[Dunnstral]

I retract my request that noraa proves their claims

I now request that noraa

substantiates

their claims

I apologize to anyone this may have confused

[Dunnstral]

I don’t know what to make of Dunnstral’s new level of stoicness.
They were always stoic, but this is brick stoic.

What is a joke? Who is rob? What is life? Error error. Beep. BOOP.

Actually a cop guilty isn’t proof either because you can’t share the mod communication.

[Dunnstral]

dunn do you think im scum for pushing you

You could be, but there's a reason I'm pushing Lukewarm to be left out of the dance.

Your bemoaning about how you would drag datisi down but not being willing to swap your partner or even comment on it is minus points

[Dunnstral]

3. You tried to substantiate that

Yeah, I did. And I'm asking Noraa to

substantiate

their claims too

Changing the word from prove to substantiate doesn't change what is going on here. I think substantiate is a better word, your complaints here seem to be that I didn't have mechanical proof a la cop guilty or similar in that game but it's clear that what I did there is what I am asking noraa to do here

This doesn’t sound like a joke to me? But, it’s midnight. I’ll ignore it.

It's not a joke

I'm pointing out that you went from criticizing me for 206 and here you are discussing whether a cop guilty constitutes proof or not in a game of forum mafia

The above was a joke

[Dunnstral]

like could those posts come from scum lukewarm, maybe.

Good enough for me

[Dunnstral]

How about you answer what I asked of you instead of barraging me with new questions that you don't care about

-Substantiate your read
-Explain why you are against yourself pairing with mala after I pointed out that it both blocks me and gets you with somebody else
-Explain what you mean when you say that mala both needs to not make any impulsive decisions but also "decide quickly"
-Explain how Ydrasse and fireisredsir townreading me makes my elimination "hard" and more likely to be scum

[Dunnstral]

Let's get the timeline right first, because otherwise it makes it look like I'm the one being reactionary here

-I first explain what I am thinking in post 203. At this point Cephrir has not posted yet, but I ignore them and say that Noraa is meh and Lukewarm is scummy
-Noraa then claims I am 'scum' then gives reasoning which I argue is untrue
-Lukewarm then follows up on this and says that the scumteam is Dunnstral + Datisi. They have a second wind and they work on preflip associations but something feels off about the way they are interacting with Datisi to me.
-I point out that both Noraa and Lukewarm may have impure motivations for this sudden shift in re, because the town was on a trajectory to eliminate between Noraa and Lukewarm
-I don't think it's particularly likely that you are both mafia together, but having 1 as mafia makes sense to me.

[Dunnstral]

impulsive decisions as in DANCING WITH YOU. decide quickyl as in dance with lukewarm.

[Dunnstral]

you dont think scum you gets more TRs typically? you cant lie about that, like it's an overall trend that you absolutely cannot deny. also you dont think having more people TRing you makes your elim harder?

The difference between town me and scum me is that as town there are 0-1 out of 12 tring me and as scum there is 2 out of 12 tring me?

[Dunnstral]

Now we're preflipping townreads on me

[Dunnstral]

I'd prefer if that was stated rather than assumed so that I don't die here.

[Dunnstral]

This is an interesting take. I don't believe you and I have ever played together, what gives you any impression on what size fish I am ? Or that giving me time will make a difference?

Is this something that you thought about before the day started, or was this your gut reaction to the day opening and Ydra's opening posts?

I think people should pair up based on their posting frequency. It doesnt make sense to pair a high frequency poster with a low frequency poster. it would be "wasting" the high frequency posts because pts can make sorting easier a lot of the time.

This approach seems so arbitrary. Is that something that has been done in other Dance Games?

[This is my first real dance game - just a marathon one time, and those are wild]

Asking a bunch of questions that don't lead anywhere is a generic scumtell, and this is what Lukewarm is doing here

I have completed my iso dives of all of the eligible ladies, and I have an issue. I did not find any scum reads :sob:

I like Ydra, Dats, and Fire all as town leans.

Enchant and Mala are both pretty close to null, but just barely perceptively higher then null for not seeming to care how their dip in and dip out would look.

Lukewarm doesn't have any scumreads here

luke is the scummiest of the bunch to me currently

But this definitely makes me feel less inclined to pair with datisi now :oops:

This looks bad too, they care too much about how their own partner reads them and we haven't even gotten past the first phase yet. As a reminder, they still don't have scumreads at this point in time, except for maybe mykonium who they talk about right after they pair

Re:Nora's read on Dunn.


I have thoughts but they feel convoluted.

I am not consciously scum reading Dunn, but I am definitely not town reading him either.

I am not as confident in my ability to read Dunn as Nora is, but I do feel like there is a difference between this game and one where i was ready to hard defend him like in say Web of Lies or Shakespeare.

I kind of like the fact that Noraa is picking up a difference there as well, since web of lies we were both ready to go to bat for Dunn, and this neither of us are town reading him this game.

It is making me rethink my Noraa scum read. Which is annoying because I don't have enough of them as it is :/

In this post they show they have a scumread on noraa from before this point, and this is who he needs to be scumreading here to survive to the next phase. I mentioned that it was looking like either Lukewarm or Noraa were being left out at this point, and this shift in reads benefits lukewarm because if scum he can get noraa eliminated after.

i have multiple issues with lukewarm's 625

first, the minor nitpick is that the "he said he's gonna do isos which opens him up for doing a new push" is weird because we're deciding who gets left out. i already had the bases down for who of the gents i could push to get left. i don't need to be doing a weird 180 redoing isos announcement for that.

then, the reasons for my 587 bothering him is ???. yeah, i didn't towncase dunn or call him town. because i had already said i liked some of his posts prior to that and because i was responding to noraa's case of him, which i said i was gonna do. why would i be dropping a towncase there?

but probably my biggest problem is the "and I think that a scum or a town flip points is enlightening towards both Datisi and Noraa" part - like, he spent the entire post talking about how dunn is scum and partnered with me, but IF dunn were to flip town, that would say something about both me and noraa. and it's interesting how it's not explicitly said in the post, but the feel i get is that if dunn greens, that noraa is scum. which like, the fact that he didn't outright say it feels like he doesn't wanna draw attention to that part immediately

actually, now that i type it out, i do feel like my instinct omgus reaction to the shade of our pair is not as good of a point as i first thought, but calling me scum over saying it's not ai for dunn to be talking the way he is feels bad faith and reminds me of lukewarm in that guardians game

not reading the pedits

Datisis points out here that Luke intends to have Noraa voted out on my town flip

he spent the entire post talking about how dunn is scum and partnered with me, but IF dunn were to flip town, that would say something about both me and noraa. and it's interesting how it's not explicitly said in the post, but the feel i get is that if dunn greens, that noraa is scum. which like, the fact that he didn't outright say it feels like he doesn't wanna draw attention to that part immediately

I actually typed out a more explicit version of

Town Dunn -> Scum Noraa, but then deleted it because I realized that I don't really know if that is true. I think I would need to reevaluate her there.

So, I actually think

Town Dunn-> Town Dats, and a need to reevaluate Noraa.
Scum Dunn -> Town Noraa, and a need to reevaluate you.

They say the opposite here but it feels ingenuine. How will they reevaluate noraa considering the reasoning that Luke is following noraa is "noraa's feelies". I'm really curious if it is even possible to justify noraa as town if luke believes what he has been typing so far.

[Dunnstral]

In web of lies I was a friendly neighbor who was cleared to a neighborhood of 4 people and noraa was calling me town

You are cherry picking

[Dunnstral]

I'll triple down: It's not true that I take softer stances as scum.

[Dunnstral]

Why would I go out of my way to say that noraa was wrong when they were calling me town and I was a friendly neighbor and I wasn't scumreading the slot

And also they replaced in

[Dunnstral]

Lukewarm, do you believe that I have softer stances when I roll mafia?

[Dunnstral]

In control, Noraa was able to read Dunn super well.

How long did it take noraa to form their read in that game Malakittens?

[Dunnstral]

82 pages mala. Here's the post:

Spoiler: post 2041

Subject: CONTROL - GAME OVER!

oh wait wait wait wait wait wait WAIT hold the fukc up. i just skimmed dunnstrals iso.
thats scum. can we bring that wagon back please

-baby bear

At this point, the game had been open for about 10 real life days

Yes, noraa's

slot

called my

slot

scum before this point, but:

1) Noraa was part of a 3 headed hydra, and the post calling me scum was signed by somebody else
2) The hydra acknowledged that they were essentially acting as 3 seperate heads
3) I was also part of a hydra when the other hydra originally called my slot scum

[Dunnstral]

Lukewarm, do you believe that I have softer stances when I roll mafia?

This is going to be a very unsatisfactory answer, but I don't have a conscious metric by which I read you. But there are some games that just scream at me that you are town despite you getting semi-widely scum read, because you feel exactly the same way you did in our first game.

First game being Divide and Conquer, following games that screamed at me that you were town being Shakespeare and Web of Lies (prior to your FN reveal).

And then there are games where you don't feel that way: Those being Control (I spectated that game), Isekai, and Bloodstained. 2/3 of those games are scum game.

This game, your vibes were definitely in the second category.

So no you don't?

[Dunnstral]

Then you have no business trying to eliminate me on day 1

[Dunnstral]

I don't have an opinion either way

That's not how it works Lukewarm

You've made it clear that this is not something that you believe in

[Dunnstral]

But also, I don't really have the means to move the mountain that Fire has set up towards insuring that Cehp stays in the game.

[Dunnstral]

This is an interesting stance. Just because Cehprir is a lovely person? Or are you town reading Cephrir currently (and if yes, why)?

its a copypasta, so... mostly joking

i don't have much of a read on ceph yet but would not like him to be left behind at this time

I suspect that fireisred is going to want to save Cephrir here. Incidentally I also think that Cephrir could go either way.

i doubt it will come down to you two as the choice anyway. but i could go either way

really? ydrasse and fire both think you are town. explicitly town.

i wouldn't say that, i thought he was townyish at first, then found your case somewhat convincing, and then now am back to thinking he's townyish

i think the lesson here is that im very easily convinced

Yeah this person is definitely dead set in their read and Lukewarm could never convince them otherwise

[Dunnstral]

fire has explicitly and repeatedly said that ceph is who he wants more than anyone

They explicitly say otherwise in post 544

[Dunnstral]

It is true that fireisred is leaning towards taking cephrir

But to say they are an "immovable mountain" and so that there is no point arguing about cephrir seems disingenous

[Dunnstral]

To be clear, I would prefer for cephrir and fireisred to dance with each other. I think it is incorrect that lukewarm is arguing that fireisred would never change their opinion when they don't look very convinced themself and are prone to changing their opinion

[Dunnstral]

I'll put it on record that I don't think bell is mafia

[Dunnstral]

Andante scum claimed when they stopped posting after they got theirs.

214

I'm still sort of interested in why they said this but seem to have no intention of following it up with anything, even when it makes sense with the way the game is right now to explain

[Dunnstral]

So you're arguing based on something that didn't happen?

[Dunnstral]

The immediate defensive and careful approach that Dunn took here is just not what town dunn does. Town dunn is more likely to straight up ignore my argument and legitimately get murdered day 1 than they are to take this approach.

There it is

I'm scum for defending myself

[Dunnstral]

It's also not true, when have I ever rolled over and died as town?

[Dunnstral]

For the record, it's not true that I give softer stances as scum compared to when I'm town. And if it is true, then somebody should make an effort towards proving that instead of taking noraa at their word.

This post is really interesting. "somebody should make an effort to prove it rather than taking noraa at their word" evolves into "noraa substantiate your claims"
let's think about why that evolved into that.

Because you didn't substantiate your claims

[Dunnstral]

But Dunn never directly confronts me until they realize that everyone is on their side.

Who is this everyone

[Dunnstral]

My reads on the remaining ladies are that fireisred is town and Malakittens + Datisi can both go either way.

I suspect that fireisred is going to want to save Cephrir here. Incidentally I also think that Cephrir could go either way.

Honestly Datisi has some posts I like but I think they can fake it

Fire is town. Why? Dunn doesn't always explain reads as town either, but I have a hard time believing this doesn't have to do with fire pretty much agreeing with everything dunn has said. "Because fire likes Cephrir, I'm alright with cephrir" is basically the 2nd and 3rd sentence in one. Also where did the myko townread go? Down the drain because Myko started getting heat for proposing to Enchant.

It's very clear that I am talking about the unpaired ladies in this post

Myko is a gentleman

[Dunnstral]

link me the game, i'll post by post analyse it. if you are right that dunn truly was low effort and broke all of my meta tells, i will agree to pairing with mala or fireisred.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=85877

the reason why i was grilling you so much about it was because you were the one to bring it up in the first place, how you didn't want to kill your town partner if dunn were to flip green. i wouldn't have said anything if your point was simply "i'm town and i don't wanna die if dunn is green", which like, understandable, but you did specifically say that you didn't want to cause deaths of two other townies

my read on dunn isn't meta, the only thing i can conclude meta-wise is that he's playing different than all the other games i've seen him in, both town and scum. i'm usually down to sheep people who have a bop on someone else if i townread them, but (1) you don't actually seem *that* sure about dunn flipping red, since you pretty consistently bring up "if dunn is green etc", and (2) i'm not yet 100% sold you're town

Noraa was the one who was bringing up the point about them not wanting to "drag you down", and then they acted like they actually didn't care about that. Yes that is unnatural.

It is interesting that Noraa has no comment on the game you linked.

[Dunnstral]

I think that the Prism-Andante pair should be the next full pair elimination during the 7 day long phase which happens after both mafia kill somebody and the unpaired player has a chance to replace a partner

Prism major scum vibes, Andante decent equity

[Dunnstral]

And I don't care one lick about Prism's self meta of how they'd totally be pushing more as scum

[Dunnstral]

You seem more interested in defending yourself than in figuring out what to do with the current elimination

I think your snap defense of andante saying they are definitely town was unwarranted because the argument makes sense. Andante completely stopped posting and they also are putting very little effort into the current elimination.

For instance, Andante said they were going to look over something from my meta but now that I've become a topic, they both aren't doing that and aren't acknowledging that it's been brought up that they're not doing that. Indeed, they don't seem to be reading my posts at all which gets a side-eye as well.

I'm referring to your post 880 here. I see that you have a different stance in post 939 which shows that you are more open to reevaluation

As for yourself, You're not posting because you're not feeling well and/or are busy but you keep coming back to the same argument which is that you create a gamestate and play differently as scum

You did this same thing in the last game I saw you as scum. You argued how the current actions you were taking were outside of your scum meta and how it indicated you were town. That's what I see you doing here

[Dunnstral]

Shame you seem to have taken the loss in D&C so hard. It was the worst scumgame I'd played since 2016.

If you're implying that I'm holding a grudge here then try again

[Dunnstral]

If it's not ai all we're left is with you doing nothing after being paired up because you got sick and then making a half-hearted catchup and then arguing with Luke a bit

Saying I'm jumping at my own shadow is disingenuous. There's 3 mafia in this game and they're probably not all unpaired right now.

[Dunnstral]

Do you feel like there is not enough ai info for me to get a good read on you, or do you think I should be able to townread you?

[Dunnstral]

I disagree, and I think when you try to point to yourself as town in this game all you have come up with so far is meta arguments about how you would play this differently if you were mafia

And the above is not convincing to me

[Dunnstral]

Thanks

[Dunnstral]

yeah marci in shakespeare

[Dunnstral]

Lukewarm, do you believe that I have softer stances when I roll mafia?

This is going to be a very unsatisfactory answer, but I don't have a conscious metric by which I read you.

But there are some games that just scream at me that you are town despite you getting semi-widely scum read, because you feel exactly the same way you did in our first game.

First game being Divide and Conquer, following games that screamed at me that you were town being Shakespeare and Web of Lies (prior to your FN reveal).

And then there are games where you don't feel that way: Those being Control (I spectated that game), Isekai, and Bloodstained. 2/3 of those games are scum game.

This game, your vibes were definitely in the second category.

I am very skeptical of this read looking at all three of the cited towngames but I'll circle back later when I'm not trying to catch up.

Would be a shame if I talked about my feelings about reading Dunn in a prior thread during the post game.

Yeah but Noraa locktowned you after reading like 5 of your posts and Luke says he had u as town as well

I just wanna know the key

I don't know that I have a firm grasp of how to read Dunn, but I am trying to lol.

I feel like I am getting a little better, I think I have defending him when others were pushing for his miselim in our last like 3 games together.

I will say that the notion that absent Dunn = scum Dunn is completely trash, and no one should use that as a metric to scum read him ever

I don't think the post you quoted here is the same thing as what you are saying in this game

[Dunnstral]

Other than you saying you don't havea firm grasp on how to read me

[Dunnstral]

You gave reasoning here that you didn't in the town game and that is the part that Prism has a problem with

The line:

But there are some games that just scream at me that you are town despite you getting semi-widely scum read, because you feel exactly the same way you did in our first game.

Is not an opinion you have previously expressed, and in fact it looked like you were talking about activity from the full quote

[Dunnstral]

You gave reasoning here that you didn't in the town game and that is the part that Prism has a problem with

The line:

But there are some games that just scream at me that you are town despite you getting semi-widely scum read, because you feel exactly the same way you did in our first game.

Is not an opinion you have previously expressed, and in fact it looked like you were talking about activity from the full quote

You seem to be approaching this conversation in a way to "gotcha" me on a technicality of the way that I expressed my self in different conversations in different contexts were not identical.

In the other conversation, I didn't say that I would go to bat to defend you because you are inactive. I explicitly say so in a later post in that conversation

I don't use this [activity levels] to read him -
But I will laugh at anyone who ever tells me that low activity dunn is scum dunn forever now.

Do you have some kind of point to make on how or why this would even me more likely to be scum, or are we just dancing around until I stumble over my words and give you something to latch on to?

My point is that this part of this post:

Spoiler:

Lukewarm, do you believe that I have softer stances when I roll mafia?

This is going to be a very unsatisfactory answer, but I don't have a conscious metric by which I read you.

But there are some games that just scream at me that you are town despite you getting semi-widely scum read, because you feel exactly the same way you did in our first game.

First game being Divide and Conquer, following games that screamed at me that you were town being Shakespeare and Web of Lies (prior to your FN reveal).

And then there are games where you don't feel that way: Those being Control (I spectated that game), Isekai, and Bloodstained. 2/3 of those games are scum game.

This game, your vibes were definitely in the second category.

I am very skeptical of this read looking at all three of the cited towngames but I'll circle back later when I'm not trying to catch up.

Would be a shame if I talked about my feelings about reading Dunn in a prior thread during the post game.

Neither verifies nor goes against your original claim in 820, but you are saying that it does

[Dunnstral]

No, clearly thinking that him ghosting the game makes me inclined to think that he is town has no bearing on this game, where that action did not happen.

I barely posted until I got accused of being mafia and people were angling to leave me out of the dance, including you.

So you're wrong, this did happen and you were scumreading me while it was happening.

[Dunnstral]

You know this is a bad thing right.

It's not, in the context of this argument.

I had 24 posts at my post 505

The next time I post is post 669. and at this point Luke is calling me mafia

I now have 116 posts and we're at 1090

So what's important here is that Luke says:

Luke said that he does not really have a firm paradigm by which he reads dunn. BUT, in this older game, Luke said "Dunn ghosted this game, and I think he is likely town for it"

And for some reason, that supposedly concerned you? That I don't have a firm grasp in a general sense, but had clear reasons in specific instances?

And then, what does it even have to do with this game? Did he ghost this one, and you feel like I am therefore judging him differently then I did in that game? No, clearly thinking that him ghosting the game makes me inclined to think that he is town has no bearing on this game, where that action did not happen.

But

is this true?

Here is what Lukewarm had to say in another game:

it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

I did fancy shit because why not?

Spoiler:

So, I ran all three games that you linked as well as every game that I can remember playing with Dunn through the spread sheet. Calculated Dunn's percentage of all posts made day 1 compared to how many players were in the game, then did conditional formatting to color his higher post rate games green. (because you are positing that lurk dunn = scum dunn) to then see if there is any corrolation.

The conditional formatting guessed incorrectly 4 times, got it right 1 time, and then it did not give a result on his middle of the road game.

If anything, this is wrong more then it is right, and lurk Dunn = town Dunn.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87781 - Chromatic Ascension, Dunn was Knight Beige
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87638 - True Love
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=83971 - Forest Fire

some (semi-)recent samples of lurkscum Dunn
there could be others from games I didn't keep tabs on but it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

-GE

I'm not lurking in the first 2 games, I'm town in the last game.

omg. If you were town in Forest fire, that would eliminate the singular correct guess based on posting habits, and it will have been wrong in every single listed game lmao

So, we have actual metrics to work with here. Dunn's posts: 24. Total Posts: 505-668 (probably the most fair somewhere in the middle). Number of players: 13.

Is Lukewarm's statement factually correct as they know it or not? This isn't theoretical, there is a real answer to this question.

[Dunnstral]

And then, what does it even have to do with this game? Did he ghost this one, and you feel like I am therefore judging him differently then I did in that game? No, clearly thinking that him ghosting the game makes me inclined to think that he is town has no bearing on this game, where that action did not happen.

[Dunnstral]

Luke never endorsed the idea that you were more likely town if you posted less.

Disagree

[Dunnstral]

He literally said:

BUT, in this older game, Luke said "Dunn ghosted this game, and I think he is likely town for it"

[Dunnstral]

I guess it's fair to say that I never ghosted in this game then.

[Dunnstral]

I've changed my mind and would prefer that Noraa was left out over Lukewarm

[Dunnstral]

And no this isn't related to 1125

I think noraa looks worse due to 980 being both untrue and brushing aside what they were saying before. They definitely made it a point to talk about how they didn't want to drag down Datisi but are now acting like it was never something they cared about.

Their argument in 878 which has devolved into saying that I will be "harder to catch" as a reason to eliminate me.

Them posting 988 and then never acknowledging 994 and then casing this game instead.

Continuing to push the softer stances angle in the above case and continuing to not be able to substantiate that (it's not true) along with the reasoning for not substantiating that simply being that they were "lazy" but that excuse matching up with the effort they're putting into casing me in this game.

Saying more untrue stuff like I point out in posts 1014 and 1017. 1014 in particular I also request be substantiated somehow and will also claim to be simply untrue.

[Dunnstral]

Won't have to use the chain hook tonight

[Dunnstral]

What is Bell's read on Datisi anyway?

[Dunnstral]

It doesn’t matter though. I’m probably tunneled now.

What does that mean?

[Dunnstral]

And to do that, you're saying that Datisi needs to die too?

[Dunnstral]

No.

[Dunnstral]

[*]

Till Death Do Us Part:

The Mafia are then given a choice to eliminate a player of their choice - this will

not

eliminate that player's dance partner. [1 Day]
[*]

A New Hope:

The lone dancer will have one chance to propose to another player for their new dance partner(This can result in dance pairs of the same gender) - if rejected, this player will leave the dance, if accepted, the other player's dance partner will leave the dance [3 Days]

[Dunnstral]

Checking: After each elimination during the Dance, we will check for Elo[Player Count = Mafia Count +2]. If we are in ELO we will enter Final Dance. If we are not in ELO, Mafia will receive another opportunity to kill[Till Death Do Us Part]

[Dunnstral]

Sure, when I get shot please pick up ydra, dat’s.
Thanks.

Does this mean you townread Ydrasse, too?

[Dunnstral]

For instance, Andante said they were going to look over something from my meta but now that I've become a topic, they both aren't doing that and aren't acknowledging that it's been brought up that they're not doing that. Indeed, they don't seem to be reading my posts at all which gets a side-eye as well.

[Dunnstral]

Explain why me leaving would have been best

[Dunnstral]

I have four problems with 1172

1. If you have no intention of leaving, what prompted 1155 where you said or implied you would leave
2. Why are you saying you're "The reason we're getting voted out" when that is not at all consensus and also not possible right now
3. That's not an explanation for fire being scum and the conviction shown doesn't match up
4. You don't explain why me being left out is ideal

[Dunnstral]

Nobody asked my opinion -> I was too busy to give my opinion -> My opinion doesn't matter

[Dunnstral]

Don't worry, your dance partner really held things down

[Dunnstral]

That replace out was obviously AI but I don't know which way

[Dunnstral]

i was super disappointed datisi and dunn ended up pairing.

OK Why?

[Dunnstral]

How did you hone in on me pairing with Datisi in the 1 minute you've been here?

[Dunnstral]

I think mala could be scum. This is the to extent of my scum hunting in this game for me today methinks.
Any questions?

This being your first take of the game is an interesting amount of disregard for your own survival, since Mala is the one who gets to chose if you die today, and has already shown interest in dancing with me, so this approach seems very likely to result in your own death.

Spoiler:

wifom

[Dunnstral]

That replace out was obviously AI but I don't know which way

I did my own research and have come to the conclusion that Noraa would not have a problem with replacing out there as scum

[Dunnstral]

But also, not supposed to talk about rep outs, so not sure I can put thoughts into words without breaking rules.

I can't find this rule. I thought discussion on replace outs was limited to, in this example, noraa discussing their upcoming replace out, or considering replacing out in the game thread.

I double checked here and here which makes no mention of other players discussing a replace out that has already happened.

[Dunnstral]

how has life been treating u funnstral?

Doing ok

[Dunnstral]

Not really

[Dunnstral]

Let me fast forward this argument

Firebringer is going to point out that he only claimed to have read the first twenty posts, which is coincidentally exactly 2 pages before Noraa started pushing me in earnest

In response, I will point out that when I originally asked why Firebringer was focused on the pairing between Dunnstral and Datisi, they pointed out that they had skimmed the game

However, the pairing between Dunnstral and Datisi was not a talking point until much later, not in the parts Firebringer has claimed to have read

[Dunnstral]

i was super disappointed datisi and dunn ended up pairing.

OK Why?

How did you hone in on me pairing with Datisi in the 1 minute you've been here?

did u not notice me saying that i had been skim reading this game prior to me ever replacing in? i wanted to play in this originally

I will once again point out that you were drawn to the pairing between me and Datisi, which was not mentioned at all during the first twenty pages.

[Dunnstral]

Noraa's reads were basically: Datisi town, Dunnstral scum, Lukewarm town. They didn't have a lot of depth beyond those reads.

You entered the game and said you didn't like the pairing between Datisi and Dunnstral because you townread Datisi, and that Lukewarm is town

Is that a coincidence?

[Dunnstral]

wanted to dance with datisi

[Dunnstral]

i get it dunn, norra was pushing u with bs. Would appreciate it u not treat me like im some hostile entity to u.

OK, you're not.

I think that some of the things you've said since replacing in looks like your knowledge of the game doesn't match up with what you are claiming, and I was pointing them out.

[Dunnstral]

Noraa never really got a hook into this game, it went rather past them. Someone who's more versed in their meta could say if they have games where they are happy to stay on the outside of the town and let things be, but my feeling was this wasn't really the case and they need to be able to make people dance to their tune.

I want to say that this is untrue starting from around the time you left, but their focus this game has been very narrow and there are a lot of players they never acknowledged or tried to sort, and a lot of their play seemed to be based on survival

[Dunnstral]

"Dunn" appears 217 times in Lukewarm's iso, somehow even beating Noraa

As for myself, Noraa appears in my iso 92 times and Luke appears in my iso 74 times

Does this mean anything? Maybe. Their focus has been a lot more narrow, focused almost exclusively on myself ever since it came down to the final few gentlemen.

[Dunnstral]

right now i don't like luke or fire much

in a game sense

I agree with luke. but I have SRed Lukewarm every single game so the SR feels a little iffy. Like I know Lukewarm tends to SR me when I'm town and I tend to SR them too when we're both town. But that SR felt like a weak "replication" of what generally happens
anyways idk im not confident at all and it doesnt matter because lukewarm becomes obvtown with time if town.

lets do a little readslisteroo in no particular order

Town:
Andante
Ydrasse
Datisi

Less certain town:
Bell
Fire

Null:
Myko
Ceph
Mala

Scum:
Lukewarm
Dunnstral

Town:
Andante
Ydrasse
Datisi

Less certain town:
Bell
Fire

Null:
Myko
Ceph
Mala

Scum:
Prism
Lukewarm
Dunnstral

Yeah, but why aren't you SRing any of the people Sring you?

Both Prism and Lukewarm SR me and I SR them. Thats 2/3 of my SRs .....

Lukewarm feels very scummy this game argh

everything is so explainy in an un Lukewarm way. i dont really care about their activity like lower activity isnt indicative of anything and lukewarm isnt even lower activity here anyways

ok read breakdown
prism's SR on me is the worst because it's very sudden and doesn't feel genuine. like the thing is this idea of me wanting to beat good players is meh at best in general. on top of that, prism hasn't really played with me much so having that much confidence in a meta tell like that is weird. i liked the intreactions with me re: andante pairing but pairing with andante is still something that just doesn't sit well with me. there's not much other content that can be juiced out of that pairing, but it's just ... a bad feeling. it feels like the exact move an experienced scum player would pull and I cant stop thinking that.

everyone TRing Dunn is a bad look on it's own. In what game has town dunn ever been townread this way? like if the playlist doesnt look like Cabd ffery peta LLD etc, it doesn't really happen. Obviously this is a very 1 dimension way to explain this read, but explaining it further is hard and I do want to wait for more dunn content to get the most out of the ISO.

Lukewarm feels very ... weird tonally. But I think Lukewarm becomes clear with time. So like if it's like day 3 and more than half of the playerlist thinks Lukewarm is scum, eliminate, no questions asked.

Ydrasse I initially thought was town (after all of the assuming i mean) for all of the interactions with me, but I'm actually inclined to take it back. Scum ydrasse is capable of so much that I shouldn't carelessly give a town pass before day 2 at the very least.

and now im bored and dont want to finish this. i might come back and finish things later

im inclined to townerad lukewarm because of lukewarms TR on me that they have no reason to give me at all if scum.

Mala dont make any impuslive decisions please. lukewarm is like the most transparent town in the world. Like if we leave ceph instead of dunn, that's somewhat acceptable. but it's not acceptable to leave lukewarm

Noraa goes from calling Lukewarm scum in multiple posts to saying that Lukewarm is town because they townread Noraa to saying Lukewarm is the most transparent townie in the world within the span of 3 mentions

[Dunnstral]

And then they almost discuss Lukewarm's alignment again, so I agree with ydrasse in 1276 from noraa's side at least that there is very little actual reasoning behind their read here

[Dunnstral]

To be fair to the Noraa slot, I did have my mildly unhinged brain dumping series of posts between 583 and 679, which they later said was why their town read on me got so strong. I originally bought noraa's transition on me as genuine.

When did they say that?

Also, they were already switching their read on you in 583

[Dunnstral]

Pick to live or die?

[Dunnstral]

Don't do it Bell, you saw what I did to Noraa

[Dunnstral]

Enchant, what is your read on me?

[Dunnstral]

Do you have a read on me?

[Dunnstral]

ngl

i rather bell either pair with dati or prism

as for andante:

There's one main reason why I chose Luke. I initially had picked Luke over Dunn & Norraa, but because I didn't bold it I messed up, which was my bad.

Second: I never had an offer to dance from either Norraa or Fire.

Third: The one who was supposed to choose beteween Norraa & Dunn was Datisi.

Fourth: An Norraa flip would have been informational to sorting out Dunn IMO. As scummy as that sounds

Hmmm. Is it too suicidal of a play for scum!Dunn to sign off on this kill?

WIFOM

Malakittens, why are you reading me as mafia this day phase? Is this different from the stance you had yesterday in posts like 879, or is this the same stance?

[Dunnstral]

My preference right now is to kill either Enchant or Malakittens.

Andante might just be being weird. Not sure why they stick their neck out and say that Bell is scum here unless they think they are in danger.

You know what scum does here? They stay quiet and hope Bell tries to kill me.

Look at Malakitten's read on me right now. They weren't scumreading me yesterday, where did that come from? Yesterday it was "I guess I'll pick Luke over Dunn" with no mention of Noraa, which was a false dilemma by the way. Today it's multiple posts implying that they think I'm mafia even though the evidence doesn't really point to it (they said wifom but what reason do they have to suspect me in the first place).

Enchant does not do absolutely nothing when they are town. This is how they play as scum. I've also got another thing bothering me about Enchant that I've shared with my hood partner. This phase is 3 days long, does Enchant plan to have read up and have an opinion before Bell makes his choice or not?

[Dunnstral]

I have four problems with 1172

1. If you have no intention of leaving, what prompted 1155 where you said or implied you would leave
2. Why are you saying you're "The reason we're getting voted out" when that is not at all consensus and also not possible right now
3. That's not an explanation for fire being scum and the conviction shown doesn't match up
4. You don't explain why me being left out is ideal

1. cause lol why not?
2. cause that's my thought?
3. I'd rather not case fire right now when doing so is just irrelevant right now
4. not like it matters anymore?

@Andante We're now in a phase where it is possible for fireisred to die. Please explain your read there.

You said you didn't intend to leave yesterday, why is that the case if you scumread Prism?

Do you believe that I should still be left off? What happened to that meta you said you were going to look at but then never did?

Why did you ask what the point of talking was last night as if you thought it was a bad idea, then proceed to talk about all kinds of things during the night anyway?

[Dunnstral]

I am surprised I am not on your kill list dunn.

Has your read on me changed?

I still think you could be mafia who attached themselves to Noraa. Why are you pushing me today?

[Dunnstral]

I am surprised I am not on your kill list dunn.

Has your read on me changed?

I still think you could be mafia who attached themselves to Noraa.

If you are suspicious of me, why would you want Bell to pair to me?

I am also suspicious of Mala

[Dunnstral]

I didn't SR prism yesterday, so why would I leave if I don't SR my partner??

my. reads. changeeeee

So why do you sr prism now?

I SR Fire way too much to ever TR them... Like, I don't think I will ever see fire as town

That's not a case

asked about talking, then realized if I died there was 0 chance prism shared my thoughts, and it's not like prism is talking in the PT, so like, why not say stuff here?? I don't see the issue..

I find it hard to believe that you believe you would die over the night

[Dunnstral]

Let's start from the beginning.

In post 1155 Andante implied that they would be leaving the dance.
In post 1168 Prism criticizes Andante for threatening to leave and losing all further agency [to push fireisredsir].
In post 1172 Andante says they have no intention of leaving, and that they intend to vote for fireisredsir during the next day.
In post 1173 Dunnstral accuses Andante of not explaining why fireisredsir is mafia and their conviction not matching up [with a lack of explanation]
In post 1174 Andante says they would rather not case fireisredsir because they cannot be eliminated in the current day phase

Now we are in the current phase, and you still will not explain how you are reading fireisredsir. Why?

[Dunnstral]

But why support pairing Bell (who you said you town read) to someone you think is scummy? Doesn't that just read you to killing Bell down the line.

You realize that this phase repeats a lot of times? It's not a big deal, really.

[Dunnstral]

So trying to piece together why you would be suspicious of mala, and suspicious of me, but want to add Bell into that pair.

I don't think that you and Mala are both mafia. I'm not going to want to kill you if Mala is mafia

[Dunnstral]

What read am I locking you into? You are the one who said you believed that fireisredsir is mafia, and that you still believe that. Surely you have a reason for saying that based on things you have seen, and don't need to read the game to explain it.

[Dunnstral]

I had a strong SR at the beginning.

OK. Based on what?

[Dunnstral]

Is there another pair where you are suspicious of both people in the pair?

Yeah

[Dunnstral]

So trying to piece together why you would be suspicious of mala, and suspicious of me, but want to add Bell into that pair.

I don't think that you and Mala are both mafia. I'm not going to want to kill you if Mala is mafia

If you are suspicious of us both, what makes you think we couldn't be partnered?

Because Mala was scrambling to pair with you and you never looked for another partner

[Dunnstral]

I think that the case you have presented is both very shallow and also doesn't actually match up at the end (Where is the evidence taht fireisredsir is trying to find the towniest player to match with? That is baseless conjecture)

And I'm also noticing that it is all right from the start of the game.

The worst part about this case is that it does not make note of what you talked about in regards to fireisredsir before, which I will quote below:

and like, @ fire, it doesn't feel like you're even trying to sort anyone right now

datisi thinks im maf this game? oof that’s a little wild… the stuff from me you “hated” were legit reads??

Also fire ranking Cephrir who hasn’t posted as his 3rd highest tr is odd to me… ahhhhhh this game

my current list of finest gentlemen:

1. bell. seems like town to me, and some people seem to disagree, so there could be some risk of him being left behind, and i would prefer that he stays with us. he seems like he may be less of a romantic dancer, but that doesn't mean it won't be fun, and maybe when the music is just right he will surprise me. but if he does find another partner, i won't be too offended

2. dunnstral. the perfect gentleman. if he is, as prism says, closed off and reserved, then i think a nice private dance, where secret thoughts can be revealed and quiet whispers can be shared, would be a magical experience

3. cephrir. ceph hasn't posted yet but i just

know

that a dance with him would be a dream come true. he would probably be number 1 on my list but i mustn't set my hopes too high. a lady must be coy about these things sometimes

4. noraa. im having trouble getting a read on zir from zir current posts. maybe a dance would help to sort? but maybe it wouldn't. im not sure. i am open to considering the possibility, though, if ze so desires

5. lukewarm. would be okay with them getting left behind, i think their posting is kinda eh so far. but i also think they could be a nice dancer and a dance could help me sort, so if it comes down to it, i may be interested in taking their hand

6. mykonian. probably scum. should be left behind, so at this point i see no reason to accept a proposal here. ive heard rumors that they have two left feet as well

I’d like to bring this back and repeat how much I don’t like anything about it… like, it seriously feels like fire is barely reading the thread, like I definitely have Noraa above Cephrir, it doesn’t feel like a “I think these people are town I want to pair” list, but instead feels like a “I’m most likely to survive if I partner with these people” I can’t be the only one thinking this, like I guess Fire wants to ignore reads on ladies and already partnered people? this just feels like scum in “oh no I need towny partner” mode, like you are going to be guaranteed a partner… yet this is just “I’m gonna take the thread reads and put them in my own words”

lol, no you aren't <3

LOL I know... I'm too easy to pocket... fire like instantly backed off.... again... fire is maf...

ceph why did you propose to fire?

My issue here is that your post above only quotes 3 posts, makes no mention of your previous thoughts on them for your supposed case. It really looks like you just made something up on the spot by looking over the start of fireisredsir's iso.

[Dunnstral]

I also don't see where fireisredsir is pretending to make reads in the posts you've quoted, or indeed making reads at all.

[Dunnstral]

Bell just start threatening people to post, you have the power. Like enchant, do they intend to have an opinion on anything before the end of this phase? Why is it so quiet? This phase only lasts for 3 days, are we stalling?

[Dunnstral]

and the fact that he has gone after noraa and then andante with this kinda doesn't sit right with me.

I'm not going after Andante. I said that I don't think we should eliminate them today but pushed them to explain and pointed out what was wrong with their posts. I took a guess at the scum team in my neighborhood.

[Dunnstral]

Andante is 4th or 5th in my scumreads

[Dunnstral]

My preference right now is to kill either Enchant or Malakittens.

Andante might just be being weird. Not sure why they stick their neck out and say that Bell is scum here unless they think they are in danger.

You know what scum does here? They stay quiet and hope Bell tries to kill me.

Look at Malakitten's read on me right now. They weren't scumreading me yesterday, where did that come from? Yesterday it was "I guess I'll pick Luke over Dunn" with no mention of Noraa, which was a false dilemma by the way. Today it's multiple posts implying that they think I'm mafia even though the evidence doesn't really point to it (they said wifom but what reason do they have to suspect me in the first place).

Enchant does not do absolutely nothing when they are town. This is how they play as scum. I've also got another thing bothering me about Enchant that I've shared with my hood partner. This phase is 3 days long, does Enchant plan to have read up and have an opinion before Bell makes his choice or not?

[Dunnstral]

I also questioned both Enchant and Malakittens today, you just noticed Andante because they're the only one who even bothered

1383
1387

[Dunnstral]

In 1423 and 1428 no, 1446 yes

[Dunnstral]

what makes it not going after andante, then?

Me saying to go after other people

[Dunnstral]

For whom does Bell toll?

[Dunnstral]

Understandble, Luke paired with Scum.

Why did you say this?

[Dunnstral]

So it's worrying that he's got twice my posts and

Didn't you stop posting for, like, 4 days?

[Dunnstral]

oh man bell sure is towny

[Dunnstral]

I don't know what happened but since they've replaced out I'll reveal that I was pushing a scum team of enchant + mala + prism in my neighborhood and only kept quiet about prism to see if they would continue to push me/luke if left unprompted today

Something that is no longer possible. Yeah, I think it's possible for Prism to be mafia here and for them to have made that kill on Ydrasse. I think that looking at Enchant/Malakittens iso you can see they've only ever responded to Prism but never directly engaged with them, except for malakittens just now in post 1508 took initiative to talk about prism for the first time this game.

I don't find malakitten's recent posts convincing. They argued that they weren't scrambling because Noraa didn't send them an invite. If they really cared and wanted to dance with them, they'd just ask them to send an invite, not throw up their hands and accept someone else. This is just an excuse.

And that I don't think Luke would be aligned with either Mala or Prism

[Dunnstral]

With that being said according to 1518 it doesn't look like Prism was going to continue with their push, so I don't know.

[Dunnstral]

Unless you want to read "No", i need take time to read game.

I thought about grabbing enchant and then leaving with Myko, but I think that was just my inner troll.

But i refuse you tbh.

*yawn*

Bell did you choose someone or nah.

I think that Bell should choose to kill Enchant as of now, or threaten to do so in order to make Enchant more readable (in which it will become more clear that they are mafia)

[Dunnstral]

My dance partner

[Dunnstral]

Are you implying that Bell has inherently likely to kill you in a way that other nightkills would not be?

Why am I mafia to you?

[Dunnstral]

Datisi, the 4th line of the 12th post in the hood plus the 6th and 8th posts

[Dunnstral]

Because you are not town for me.

Can you explain why you think this?

[Dunnstral]

During the pre-dance, a Gentleman can ask a Lady to the dance in thread. Each Lady can accept only one dance proposal. [Seven Days]
At the end of the pre-dance, one unpaired player will leave the dance. If more than one player is unpaired, I will ask the mafia to pair the players remaining privately.
Each dance pair will then become neighbors and they will be given a private topic to discuss the game.
Till Death Do Us Part: The Mafia are then given a choice to eliminate a player of their choice - this will not eliminate that player's dance partner. [1 Day]

A New Hope: The lone dancer will have one chance to propose to another player for their new dance partner(This can result in dance pairs of the same gender) - if rejected, this player will leave the dance, if accepted, the other player's dance partner will leave the dance [3 Days]

The Dance: Players vote to eliminate a pair from the Dance, Players may leave to force their partner to leave as well. [7 Days]
Checking: After each elimination during the Dance, we will check for Elo[Player Count = Mafia Count +2]. If we are in ELO we will enter Final Dance. If we are not in ELO, Mafia will receive another opportunity to kill[Till Death Do Us Part]
Final Dance:[ELO]Players vote to eliminate a pair from the Dance, Players may leave to force their partner to leave as well. [10 Days](Mod Note: It is possible to go from ELO to [Till Death Do us Part] if an S/S Pair is eliminated)

Bolded the phase we're in

[Dunnstral]

Enchant, what is your read on me?

I forgot you exist, hi!

Do you have a read on me?

Unless you want to read "No", i need take time to read game.

What does your position have to do with sharing your thoughts on whether another player is scum or town and why you think that.

Blow Andante/Dunn if you really don't care.

I think i paired with town. Most likely. Maybe.


Idk i would left townpair like you untouched as maf, not kill and risk being outdanced.

Are you implying that Bell has inherently likely to kill you in a way that other nightkills would not be?

Why am I mafia to you?

Putting it simple, everything can kill me, but i am imunne to nightkills for early game, so there's no real big difference in who i would kill as maf. Therefore, kill makes sense from my perspective. Which i don't like.

Because you are not town for me.

What is going on with your read of me here Enchant?

[Dunnstral]

How did Enchant go from "I have no read on Dunnstral" to "Dunnstral is not town" from posts 1386 to 1535?

[Dunnstral]

Sup Dunnstral is town so lets go from there

What was this based off of?

[Dunnstral]

I overall had a decently good feeling about Prism.

We'll have to take you at your word for this, because this is not reflected in your iso.

Spoiler: Here is where Prism appears in your iso during the first phase

I had dinner and just ate some cookies and cream icecream.

Am I scum yet.
Andante is a her.

newbiescumtellbrooo

I know im playing with fire but me asking ydrasse to dance vs prism asking andante.
one is extremely scummy and the equivalent of "anyone want to dance?"
but the other is like apparently so towny that the dance is happening.

how does that make sense

Well, first, I'm not the player that weighed in on your proposal to Ydrasse. Andante was. Maybe she's a better fit to answer. It's also unclear if this is a critique of me proposing, of Andante accepting, or both, because asking about Ydrasse is fundamentally different than asking "anyone" and you treat them as equivalent anyway.

Second, Andante posted that because she's like the energizer bunny or the smiling dog in her picture, eager for more posts and to run around and grab the stick and bring it back and have someone throw it again so she can grab it again and shake head to play with stick pretend it is squirrel oh no they take stick and they can throw it and where stick go there stick must move legs fast and....

Fundamentally I think that enthusiastic pro-activity is a bit +town for her. That's a read rooted in meta. While I didn't comment on it before, I think your Ydrasse reaction is null at best. Just rote pursuit of early/pregame pocket target is plausible.

I agree w/ this assessment.

Andante's play so far reminds me of a puppy biting at my shoe while my leg is still attached because I got in their way. But I'm actually okay with that. They don't have to listen. I just won't talk to or address them unless I think it particularly relevant.
I dunno what Andante scum looks like. They've appeared townie since I've known them. This game isn't much of an exception.

Strangely, I actually agree with Ydra so far, but both Fire and Luke are the types of players I like, so I'm looking forward to seeing them play and maybe changing my mind.

so I have played with scum andante twice and this feels like town andante. Scum Andante has a tone-difference in her posts.

town andante has a huge chance of being pocketed so I want to wait out this read before solidily calling her town

i feel townpings on malakittens for possibly dumb reasons, we'll see

why's that??

maybe

dunnstral/mala
lukewarm/Datisi
cephir/fireisred

luke+ceph swap works too

So, I haven't yet had a great read on Dunn. I have played with Dunn in the past and been wrong too many times. So i'm leaning on ppl who have more exp in reading him.

im also open to that. i wanted myko left out most but now with who is remaining i want ceph and dun >>>>> luke and noraa to stay.

and im cool with taking some consensus into account if it comes down to luke/noraa cause i don't exactly have a strong scumread on either of them

I mean i wanted you to be left out bc i think youre scum, but hey we all cant get what we want

dunn will flip scum 9/10 times here

You were right about Dunn in Control so if anything i'll be more wanting to trust your read over aNYones elses when it comes to dunn

someone once told me dunnstral powers up in dance games

so in hindsight this makes dunn's posting NAI as if he powers up in dance game regardless of alignment, which in the future is gonna throw off any meta type tells

fml

I think that Dunn should be left behind

propose to Mala

I don't currently trust Prism, which leaves me disinclined to let her do the sorting of the pairs.

Thinking selfishly, I think pairing with Dats knowing that I am his top scum read just kills me day 2, and I think proposing to fire results in fire getting hammer between me and Cephrir, and I am left behind today. So, survival thinking says Mala is my best bet.

Noted & ooof going to think on this last few lines of this.

Any bets on how long it takes Malakittens to notice her pairing got rejected for formatting?

I got the message from the mod
so i'm aware it was rejected for not being bolded.

i also checked the op so i know i have a decision to make between noraa and luke

i just need to catch up

Here is the only place you have ever given a read on Prism:

First I’m hearing you think prism isn’t town.

I have a lot of thoughts, and the fact ydra was killed over prism was a bit sus to me cause I thought prism looked very towny and is someone I'd fearkill... not sure why this is a hard thought to believe?

What. IMO prism was not the player I townread the most during D1. As I had two others who i felt were townier than Prism. You, actually, being one of them.

Which is during day 3, and in fact is a stance you just conjured up out of thin air today.

[Dunnstral]

phase 3 rather

[Dunnstral]

I still rather not separate the andante/Prism pair because it contains two of my townreads, Bell is another townread.

So who is mafia?

[Dunnstral]

OK, I propose that we eliminate Enchant in this phase

[Dunnstral]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13309638

107-270, 1013

[Dunnstral]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13309638

107-270, 1013

Sorry, what is this for?

Alright humor for me a bit, this is going to be a complicated post.

The setup:

The setup is 3 merlins and 5 vanilla town vs 3 mafia . Each merlin knows the identity of 1 mafia, and the merlin's know each others identities.
At the start of the game, mafia are given a list of 5 players, containing all 3 merlins and 2 vanilla town. They know the merlins are in this list and cannot kill anyone on this list during the first night.
If mafia correctly guess all 3 merlins and pair them up to the correct mafia member, they win. They can do this even if they have all been eliminated.

The players:
I was town
Noraa was town
fireisredsir replaced in as town after I had already died (I don't think this is relevant)
Enchant was mafia

----------

Alright, the stage is set. It's important to realize that this game ran concurrently with this one but started earlier, that is to say, while I was being pushed by Noraa in this game, I had already been miseliminated by them in that game, but it wasn't legal to bring that game up at the time. It's also worth noting that Noraa was not dead, so since fireisredsir was town they would not have been able to take advantage of any information from that game.

I could talk about how Enchant say noraa push me as town and that even after that game ended, they would not give any kind of a read on me, and that they never mentioned anything at all about me or noraa in this game, but I'm going to take a different approach and argued that Enchant is mafia in this game and

used information in this game in order to make a decision in that game

.

First I'm going to go over how that game ended. All 3 mafia were eliminated, and the mafia, including Enchant, had 2 days to deliberate on the merlins and come to an agreement.
They did not come to an agreement. It came down to a 2-1 vote.
Remember how I said that 2 of the vanilla townies would make it into that list of 5 the mafia got? By sheer coincidence, the 2 vanilla townies on that list were myself and Noraa.

Let's sneak a peak at the discussion in the mafia pt for that game, because I feel it is important:

Thoughts on the Muses?

[redacted per request]

[redacted per request]

Noraa pushed out Dunn day 1 - doesn't seem like Muse behaviour to me. I still believe Butterflies/implosion are both Muses and I think Italiano is one as well. Look at day 1 - Galron on Umlaut and butterflies sheeping.

So pause - you'll notice that Enchant

redacted every single post they made in that scum thread before it was released

. With that being said, context clues from the other members reveals that Enchant thinks that both Noraa and myself are Merlins (Muses).

Isn't that strange? They just watched Noraa push me to death, but they think we are muses together. It's a stretch to come to that conclusion using

just that game

as a reference point.

Remember, this game was happening at the same time. Noraa made no mention of that game in this game, indeed they couldn't, but let's assume that Enchant has an informed position in this game as well. They know that Noraa and I are both town, and he watches as Noraa makes claims that they are really accurate at reading me, even though

he knows that noraa knows this to be false or an exaggeration

. Enchant then comes to a conclusion... in order for what Noraa is saying in the dance game to make sense, they have to have bussed their own merlin in the merlin game, thereby their read was never "wrong" in that game.

Do you really think a Muse got condemned day 1 and everyone was fine with it?

[redacted per request]

ok well I don't think a Muse gets condemned day 1.

In the end, Enchant manages to convince 1 mafia player that Noraa and myself are both merlins in that game, while the other is left unconvinced and says they will go with majority.
That other mafia player came to the correct conclusions: they looked at who pushed who in that thread and correctly matched every merlin to their mafia counterpart, but because Enchant was operating using information they couldn't even share with their team, they came to a different conclusion and were unable to convince the last mafia member of their viewpoint.

That's my case, and if you asked me if I believed it I would say yes, I think this is pretty likely. As for Enchant redacting their posts:

@Enchant, why did you redact every single one of your posts?

Because i am not happy with how this game went.

You all can decide if the reason they gave is convincing, or if perhaps it relates to this game.