Tales of You (Endgame)

[The Fox and the Hound]

^DV!!!!

[The Fox and the Hound]

With the threat of putting Kagura up against Tammy, it could be a stupid gambit.

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

And sure enough, part of me wants to unvote it for solely that stupid reason.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Orc is also clearly town based on his role.

No.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't have time to read, but my thought was that the gladiator thing was a pretty reasonable way for scum to try avoiding a lynch so I'm not sure that I really believe it but I don't have time to think about things and will be back in 30 min to an hour, but there'll probably a whole different wagon by that time so yeah whatever.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Dv again, sorry.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Surely something mediocre (i.e. LB) would be superior to no lynch.

I still want to lynch orc though

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

-DV

I'm back earlier than expected, but I'm at the point where I just want this day to end and I still think Orc's a decent shot for scum, plus there's the issue of not really having any idea of who I want to/can lynch if not Orc.

I'm really sick of having out-of-date reads but I remember Clyton being a strong townread for us back in the olden days so I'm probably not going to want for that, but who knows what will happen???

I just really think that people are taking people on the verge of lynch way too seriously considering that this is when scum have the most reason to do whatever they can to stop their lynch, so if you're townreading them based on this it should be for a pretty good reason that isn't covered by scum merely trying to town it up. Because at this rate I don't think we're going to lynch anyone until we get to a townie who just can't be bothered.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ok well Orc makes the most sense then. If he's lying about his role, then he's probably scum and whoop-dee-doo. If he's not then, it doesn't matter who we lynch, so ORC WAGON GO.

-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

I would not object to a lurker lynch at this point, we obviously need more time.

p-edit: I would be fine with that

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why are we using this time to do anything other than argue for who orc should be targeting?

[The Fox and the Hound]

@foxhound who do you think he should target?

Are we living in reality here or do I get my pick of the litter?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Reality: he's said he wants to put up a strong townie against PV or LB. In that case I would prefer LB, as I am leaning town on PV. All the moreso because of CF's towncase on PV.

Illusion: Good question. If I'm going off my own honest opinion, RBD and someone who'll get them lynched. If I'm discounting my own read there to some degree because of the pushback everywhere else, I go back to my secondary lynch pool: {RG, AP, LB, Cupcake, Orc, Mastin}. AP just claimed cop, RG is not getting lynched, and I actually wouldn't want to lynch mastin out of that group right now (even though the info would be useful, a little more time with the darkglasses off is something I want). My favorite targets there are LB and Orc, yes I still think he's likely scum (partially POE), though I don't think it's terribly likely he'll gladiate himself.

[The Fox and the Hound]

@orc: it's basically a scum lean & POE. There is definitely still plenty of room for you to prove yourself to me, you just haven't been doing it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Vote: Lord Business

[The Fox and the Hound]

I thought there was gonna be a Symphonia neighborhood but there isn't :S

[The Fox and the Hound]

Dang Mastin, that's the closest thing to a case I think I've ever seen you write! I haven't actually not-skimmed it yet, but dang!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Orcinus. (Heck no, he gets no towncred for that claim. It's null.)

Thank you. I don't understand why he's getting free passes from all corners for doing precisely what anyone would do, with the possible argument that town would've been more likely to throw in two possible scum and let them fight it out for information.

Also, if anyone could think I'm still scum at this point, I don't know what to tell them. Like, I don't want to chalk things up to personal bias against me b/c I'm a dick, etc, but I'd be at a loss for any other explanation for anyone voting me at this point.

I totally have you down as scum don't worry. <3

Someone is going to have to remind me for the 140th time why we aren't allowed to lynch this.

And what's wrong with analyzing and scumreading at the same time?

Because

you offered to enter into a fucking 1v1 against me

. If you analyzed things and found them to be scum, sure. Battle. If you were analyzing things and were beginning to scumread me, you'd point it out but not risk it. Because know what a critical piece of logical, analytical play is? CAUTION. Which you have displayed the entire game. You've shown a lack of commitment to reads, being willing to reconsider them. Meaning that if you hadn't done your analysis? You'd have taken that stance on me.

Instead, you admit you didn't do the analysis...yet you also insist on trying to kill me anyway. From certain players, this might be normal. For a fucking self-admitted logical analytical player, it simply makes zero sense coming from town.

This point really struck me as I went through this back-and-forth. I felt like I was seeing town moments from Clyton within the argument (actually I daresay from both of you) but this really hit home for me. The motivation is there. I need to look at the rebuttal to this point again because I don't recall it.

Okay, then. Scenario. Orc's scum. He gets lynched and self-governs. He puts two obvtown players in.

What nonsense is this?

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in. He also doesn't say in-thread that he's purposely gladiating a townread.

What happens Day 2?

Fuck all

.

What difference does it make? None except that he arguably gets towncred from putting you in the ring, maybe, but probably not. I don't understand why you think that decision is so important. Besides, what if he puts in LB and some other lurktownie? If Orc is ever lynched and flips scum, the surviving lurktownie becomes obvious town. I expect better logic from you.

Like. I thought about it. And there is no fucking way that CF wouldnt say jackshit when I declared intent to investigate a him, a MILLER.

So thanks for ruining his reaction to that, I still think hes just scum for declining to comment on the cop declaring intent to investigate him as a miller though. Cause thats not something a miller forgets.

Why did you claim a town result on him rather than a scum result? Wouldn't that get the reaction you were looking for?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ignore my last point, I just figured out the answer to my question.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And

yes I got a result on Kagura

.

VOTE: AP

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is false, but given your attention to detail I'm not surprised you think this. Pretty sure I was the first to declare Mac town, and swam against the current on RBD, GiF-before-hydra, and Fox&Hound.

Mmmm. My view on the matter may be skewed because of when I replaced in. I like to think I was at the forefront of the Foxhound and RBD and Mac reads.

Are you implying that you think we're town? I don't recall this.

[The Fox and the Hound]

*even if fake.

@Fox, I can sum up my rebuttals here. But the expected response (that is inherently scummy) from me will obviously be "but I haven't revealed my full playstyle in a large game yet!" And that part is true. I gave my off-site mafia experience link, and if you look through some of the games, there were instances that I took gambits and risks because it was necessary. The necessary thing in my perspective is to get rid of Day 1's noise and establish the town on better ground. Yet in Day 2, the debates that happened in Day 1

somewhat

spilled over here.

I'll outright state that I will disregard my exercise to caution the next day if this day does not bode well for the town. I'll softclaim that my role is partly an informative type, and I will use this information to my resources.

Realistically, no one can prevent that however if it wasn't for the revelation of orc's role and his adamant intention to put two non-obvious townies against one another. I've done my best to quell the noise coming from Mastin in regards to confronting me, but for others like PV, JSU and possibly CF, they see differently and will probably continue the push.

I'm not sure I get how this actually addresses the particular issue I was bringing up but I'll go back and look at how you responded to the one point in question.

Are you implying that you think we're town? I don't recall this.

Uhhh? Ive been townreading you most of yesterday, I dont see where you got the impression I was doing otherwise.

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum.

Wait, people think this is scum? Has it done something absurdly scummy?

Players I wont lynch Today: titan, Orcinus, Mac, Stalin, RBD, Foxhound, Clyton

Oh, alright, I guess I wasn't paying attention.

[The Fox and the Hound]

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

Why wouldn't a roleblocker block me? Obviously Im not speculating that I was roleblocked by town, I think scum blocked me.

There is gain for the mafia to RB me though, a result is a result. Im actually slightly awed by this role as far as the balance/setup designer in me goes in that I cant quite place just how powerful I think it is, but it DOES return hard results still. Yes the mafia has more room for working around it (by forcing me to investigate less optimal targets, basically making full guilties unlikely or just killing someone on my list) but that still forces the mafia to make suboptimal kills or conftown someone that was in a shortlist in the first place. It makes complete sense for mafia to want to stop that. You spend most of your time spec'ing on why town wouldnt want to RB me..and I agree. Why do you think scum would have no motive to do it though?

I believe there are more significant targets to roleblock. My suspicions about Cabd's power distribution for the town roles were confirmed when I saw RBD dead, most likely by someone outside of scum. It was confirmed that there were only two factions. Ideally, the mafia should be trying to get rid of that vigilante. While a hard result on someone is devastating, it does not "seal the deal." They can still deal with that result in multiple ways. You can't deal anything when you're dead.

Getting to Mastin now.

I think scum blocking AP makes a ton of sense if he's town. His role does, admittedly, also make a lot of sense with our at least one miller. Nothing is really ever more scary for scum than a cop IMO.

Look. I'm not saying you should blindly trust Rancid's read on me.

And how is dropping all of my suspicion because "Muffinati said so" anything but?

By putting in someone who is obvtown and someone who isn't with both being town, it's win-win. Obvtown lynched, an obvtown player got lynched. Mislynch got lynched? Mislynch got mislynched. It's the optimum scum strategy.

That's still spending a mislynch that could be a game-saver in lylo, whereas putting "scumreads" who are actually both town saves face

and

gets a mislynch.

I don't see how that saves face. Name two players like that he could've picked without looking scummy.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Yes, this is Ceph, DV hasn't checked in since Day 2 started.

Perhaps when we actually agree on something it's like a solar eclipse or something that makes whatever it is automatically right?

[The Fox and the Hound]

As a good rule of thumb you can generally assume that any reasonably short post is me. DV's also pretty distinctive, so if you aren't sure, it's probably me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think I've entered some kind of twilight zone where the only difference is that Mastin actually makes sense.

Well, except for that random Orc vote, which while a passable position, what just happened?

[The Fox and the Hound]

orcinus asked me if I was ok with being 1v1'd. asking me and not just setting it up that way gave me townvibes.

As opposed to throwing you in the ring with no explanation? That would be a one-way ticket to the graveyard.

I think his obvious impression that he'd set up a chance to talk with both of us during the 1v1 also looked town. I don't think scum-orcinus would seek out an opportunity to spend 3 days in a game thread with me with no distractions given that I'd been unsure enough about him to vote him during the deadline lynch mad dash.

This I can maybe accept, but I would not put it past him at all to have bullshitted that impression while actually knowing what he does. After Vesperia there is very little I think is beyond his capability to fake particularly in the world of role related bullshit.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm starting to find it difficult to believe scum would bother doing the amount of wheel-spinning that Mastin seems to be doing right now. And if they did they would realize they just kept saying the same things and stop.

Don't take this as encouragement though, I'd still prefer that it stop v.v

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'll be getting back up to speed tomorrow.

-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

Yggdra, I have difficulty rebutting your point about the reaction to the Bro meltdown, since you insist that one's next post address it. But I don't think it's going to be enough for me.

I would like to note that your insistence on Mastin not responding to you is frankly kind of silly and she would very obviously respond to you anyway regardless of what her alignment is. If anything it's odd that she is not just straight up attempting to rebut you, and I know /you/ are tunneling so hard you don't want to hear it but /I/ am interested so you really could stand to quit trying to shut down discussion.

That said, Yggdra is pretty fucking town.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(By the way, for those curious overall to as what sparked the overall change in my approach this game. I'd like to say it was all me, but it was very largely GreyICE's feedback that I was thinking of at the time. I was in my car, about to get to driving, when his words entered my mind. And though I knew that I couldn't get nightkilled because I had claimed, I also knew that his advice was good advice to have regardless of that. And that was the thought triggering Xeno, with me essentially going as an instinctive response, "That advice has backfired on you before!" But as I was driving, I kept weighing things. And I thought of the things I talked about. How I've been in a rut for...quite a while. And not feeling like, well, me. I've noted this before, and tried fixing it. But I think I was focusing in the wrong areas before, because they didn't have a large impact on me. But this simple change...has.)

You say your approach to the game has changed, but other than you suddenly asserting that you are a town leader and everyone should follow you, I don't really feel like anything actually different is happening?

[The Fox and the Hound]

See, now 3747 is actually a different style of post.

I imagine we'll be able to tell ns' alignment from his catchup posts pretty easily. In my experience it really is that easy.

PV, I did feel that I saw some posts that made RG strong town at one point, but they were figuratively on page 2, so I no longer care.

I feel kind of disengaged today, I need more DV in my life.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Btw, AP, BROseidon, and DV should all be posting soon, so have raised eyebrows if they don't within the next hour or two.

Seriously?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ok, I may have skipped a few/a lot of Mastin posts and not really read other posts all that properly, but ignoring that I've read all of Day 2 and I'm here. Really tired though so what I'm posting might not make much sense, which is unfortunate considering I have things to say but you can always get me to clarify things later.

Reads (Probably some weird fusion of reads as a hydra and reads of DV):

I'm pretty sure the following are solid townreads for both Ceph and I (at the very least they are for me)

Yggdra Union
Titan
Breakfast with Stalin
Carbon Fiber
Just Sheep Us

Clyton? (? because I suspect he's less of a townread for Ceph than the others even though he's still a strong one for me)

And to be completely honest I feel like it could be anyone after that with the possible exception of AP since I think he's town in large part because of the CF thing. However, Ceph obviously didn't like the CF thing and while Ceph is open to moving our vote elsewhere we haven't really resolved our disagreement here and I don't know if we will, so AP doesn't get to go with the cool hydras + Clyton but maybe not. It's really sad I know.

I go through phases where I think Kagura is town, but ultimately I don't feel satisfied enough to put them in the top group.
I don't really know what I think of Orcinus after the governor thing. Probably needs an ISO but I'm not doing that tonight.
RedGyarados is again a slot I should probably ISO but my townread on them was stale a while ago and I haven't seen anything exciting since.
Cupcake, I don't know and don't really care that much right now.
PV is concerning, but there are town things about him too and probably doesn't match with mastin-scum (not that I've checked properly) so I'm probably waiting for when I actually decide what I'm going to do about my mastin thoughts. Look forward to those!

And then there's Mastin... So as I'm reading through I start questioning my mastin-read because she's actually sounding pretty town and not making me feel all tingly inside like she was before, but then there's the problem of how did this change happen??? It does seem odd to me that she earlier seemed pretty dead-set on scumreading us despite not really having any reasons apart from Ceph being good at scum and being unwilling to listen to anyone else about the reads (being quite open about her arrogance here), and THEN seemed to actually start listening to people and not pursue us relentlessly anymore. Other changes include more openness and actual reasons for votes and these all have me wondering whether these changes are a response to the suspicion she was gathering and an attempt to change that. I know that Ceph has severely reconsidered his read on her to the point where I'm not sure what would happen if I decided I wanted Mastin lynched, for example, so you couldn't say that it hasn't worked to some degree. As always though, there are doubts as to whether or not these are actually good reasons to reconsider my read, so when it comes to Mastin I'm really just a wishy-washy ball of nothing. I'm going to ISO her tomorrow to see if what I'm thinking is plausible, but I'm really not sure at the moment. There's also the fact that I haven't read a whole chunk of Day 1...

So yeah, that's where I'm at right now and I really do wish to be more involved but between this game being.. not the most fun of games to read through, and RL being RL, I'm not really that into it. I will keep reading and hopefully do the ISOs I've been promising and post my opinion of things, but I'm not too sure how that will go, especially when it comes to my opinion vs. Ceph's.

Oh also, Ceph's obviously free to point out if his reads wildly differ where I haven't said they do or I have his opinion on something wrong. We've only talked a little recently so it's definitely possible.

I will

Unvote: AngryPidgeon

too since I think our vote is there.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh also, lack of communication on our part is definitely my fault and not Ceph's, to make things clear.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'll be very surprised if Beli disagrees with that suggestion.

You seem to keep feeling like you have to refer to Beli every time Mastin comes up, even though it feels like Mastin is the closest thing you have to a scumread anyway? That wasn't really a question, but, consider it one.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, I've seen ffery be more transparent than this as well, but I've incorrectly scumread her at least once for similar reasons, and so I don't think it's a good reason to scumread her, especially when they've been pretty town otherwise imo (a few Beli posts in particular from memory).

Ok, I've decided.

Vote: MastinSSK

As always Ceph is free to change it, but I think this is ok. The only other person I could see myself being willing to lynch right now is Cupcake.

Well hey, at least I didn't sign it!

Vote: MastinSSK

just in case..

[The Fox and the Hound]

Are you guys going to want my notes to be posted

Um, duh?

re Mastin vote: We've talked it over a little bit. I still feel conflicted about the slot while DV still leans scum on it. We're both pretty strapped for scumreads. I don't know how I feel about the fact that Mastin ceasing to tunnel on me happened pretty much right after I decided to stop tunneling on her, while we remain in the scum group (possibly so we can be moved back if I changed my mind). Part of me has a hard time believing the massive level of noise coming from Mastin can actually be scum. Ultimately, I don't intend to move the vote. I'm partially deferring here because I don't feel like there is much of anyone I actually want to lynch, and partially giving in to my still-present paranoia even though I would honestly still call it a town lean at this point. Also, as much as I hate this kind of logic, I feel as though sorting through the rest of the game will become less impossible with less noise. Usually I would object to using that as anything approaching a reason, but I've also literally never seen a player produce so much noise ever. Personally, I didn't read most of her posts on this page, and I don't really do that.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I can squint and make out a cupcake/mastinssk team, maybe. I dunno.

I haven't really thought about teams, but thinking about it, Cupcake if scum has had pretty much no impact on the game so could probably be scum with anybody.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I know DV's a fairly-rounded player, but not particularly spectacular; I remember him being mediocre, not particularly good.

Is this referring to me as town, scum or both?

[The Fox and the Hound]

(omigod I am building the most zen reading space ever you should all be jealous)

I'm actually really jealous.

So MastinSSK's vote thing where their vote doesn't count on a leading wagon.

We haven't talked about it since mid day 1 iirc. How does it fit in as a scum role attribute in a game this size with 4 scum?

I think any disadvantage from that is reasonably balanced out by the role looking fairly town. I don't think the use of a vote is that powerful until late-game anyway but opinions may vary, what with 'your power lies with your vote!!!' propaganda and all that.

~~

So apparently the mastin vote is not really ok and Ceph wants to step back and go over things again.

In the meantime though...

Vote: Cupcake

Spoiler:

I'm not actually sure that I want to eat the cupcake, and that's why it's all over the face and not actually in the mouth, but I'll be pretty cute while doing it!

PEdit: I remember thinking some bork posts were fairly town a while back, so I could see them being townread (esp. if bork is transparent as scum), but they're outside the townpile for me (I'm actually not sure what Ceph thinks of them at all...).

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you guys think Im this stupid then I really REALLY cant help you.

I was hoping to catch CF in a lie about his role. And

yes I got a result on Kagura

.

VOTE: AP

Why did it bother you that ap got a result on kagura?

I'm pretty sure you did not answer this. I'm pretty sure I want it answered.

Fox and hound.

I am just as interested in the answer to that as you are!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Tammy: It bothered me because he then proceeded to say that he didn't get a result on Kagura, or that the result he got was "no result".

re Mastin: Yeah, I'm really thinking Mastin is town now, even though I want her not to be for the sake of my ego. I need to do some resetting or something because I don't have much in the way of scumreads anymore V.V

[The Fox and the Hound]

re Mastin: Yeah, I'm really thinking Mastin is town now, even though I want her not to be for the sake of my ego.

Oi!
Just because you null-reading me caused me null-reading you, don't think that townreading me will suddenly make me townread you!

Why

am I now a townread?

I plan on going through everyone again and trying to sort out the people I gave too much credit to for little things from the people who are actually town. There will probably be a lot of text involved, I hope. I also want to sift through everything I thought was scummy from you early on and see if I can make sense of it. When I do that, I will try to explain my drifting in this direction. Might take me a few days to get around to the whole project.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Yggdra is null leaning towards "uh how the he'll are ppl townreading them?". I disliked the writing orci off as town for a claim when people jg Ave been talking all game about how roles do not mean anything in this game

They have the ~town passion~ off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure there were other things too.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sorry, but family drama has put me completely out of the mood for mafia and so my plan is to get to this tomorrow. It's possible I'll be suddenly in the mood later tonight, but probably not. Sorry again.

-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

Players claiming to be doing NKA and to some extent VCA are liars if they don't take that into consideration for their read on me. 'Cause that?
Is not some trivial fucking statistic. That is extremely relevant to the whole core of the game.

Mastin, while I disagree that the reads of dead players who are familiar with you should be trusted (I've said the same thing as both town and scum so HMMMM), actually attacking people for not agreeing with you is pretty ridiculous.

also in case it wasn't clear, the uh???? was in reference to you not wanting to intereact with mastin at all this day phase while simultaneously believing that sorting mastin is the key to unlocking the gamestate fypov

I feel really similar to ffery to be fair. I mean theoretically I should be reading mastin's posts closely/interacting with her so I can either decide that I agree with Ceph's recent town thoughts about her or confirm my scumread so I can better discuss the read with Ceph, but am I actually going to do that? I don't think so.

I think with mastin it's gotten to the point (at least in my mind) where there's just SO MUCH posting and a lot of it to me feels like what I would expect from scum, but a lot of it also feels like it could be from town and makes me doubt my read. Being my almost-zero-confidence self I don't know whether or not I should be trusting that, and with all the conflicting content, trying to figure out whether it's scum faking town-ness but slipping up at times, or just me calling things scummy that aren't, has become such a chore that I'm pretty done with it myself. Obviously the confidence thing doesn't apply to everyone, but not really being up to interacting with Mastin is completely understandable imo and I think some of the above may be reasons for others as well.

Ceph has other obligations at the moment and I won't push a vote without him unless I feel that it becomes necessary, but where

I

am at is that I have a legitimate scumread on Cupcake which I'd probably be more ok with lynching now than I was when I voted, but I'd also be quite willing to lynch Mastin. Obviously Ceph thinks Mastin's town though and I haven't heard back from him about the former so I don't know where we'll end up.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm almost ready to have another go at this.

It looks from these two pages like PV is scum.

[The Fox and the Hound]

-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

He had me on confirmed would game throw levels of town because he wanted me to feel good. He flopped on me because he's trying to pull the same "Nacho townreading me = Nacho town and Nacho scumreading me = Nacho scum" shit that Ceph pulled in ASOIAF.

<.<
>.>

[The Fox and the Hound]

I foolishly decided to do my isoing in alphabetical order, got halfway through the sheer volume that is AP, and drowned. Will try again tomorrow.
-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Yes. I feel like I need to reassess everything on account of lack of scumreads.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Perhaps I can be a little more selective and skip reviewing the select few for whom I don't feel that's necessary. Off the top of my head that's you and JSU. I guess those are my "would throw game" townreads.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Fox/Hound: Can you two explain where exactly you stand on everyone right now and on reads that you disagree on, why? Im having a hard time recalling/tracking what you two actually are thinking. Your vote on me and unvote (fake edit) and vote on mastin and unvote is really non-committal. Do you actually have a reason for thinking Cupcake is scum or is that just a whatever vote?

I have a post not too long ago that has thoughts pretty similar to what they are now. I do have a reason for voting Cupcake (which is still only me at this stage), but it's the kind of thing that I'll have a better idea of the longer I go without explaining it, so I'm not going to unless I'm going to push his lynch.

Do either of you have a read on: PV, Nacho, F16?

Ceph obviously is considering PV-scum, and while I see a couple of concerning things lately, I was leaning town on him before the last day or so. I think we're pretty agreed on the Nacho slot being townish but not TOWN, and Carbon Fiber being TOWN but I miss FT (not that F16 isn't cool, because he is too!). I also don't know if either of these are changing for Ceph with his reading.

I just feel hesitant about everything and I don't know what to do to make it make sense.

When I first started playing mafia I was really paranoid about everything and anything and even though the paranoia now is probably less controlled than I think it is, I have tried to sort of lower my standards for who I trust in a way and pretend to myself that I'm more confident than I actually am? I know it sounds bad, but I feel it's achieved a better result at least for me. Obviously this could be of no use to you whatsoever and I'm obviously not a model player, but I think a more relaxed (e.g. it's just a game and not the end of the world if I'm wrong) approach could possibly help here.

This vote probably wont move before deadline.

Do you think CF is getting lynched?

At page 175 and that will have to do for today.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ok, I am going to catch up completely now (maybe over the next couple of hours but that would be me being lazy so you should probably berate me if you're suspicious) and I'm going to have thoughts and I'm going to have a clearer idea of what I think should happen!!!

-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

^Currently my plan is to do the same tomorrow; I think I'm giving up my overly ambitious thing in lieu of just catching up and playing again because this is getting stupid.

-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Come again?

[The Fox and the Hound]

So are you gys toen? Or just costing scym.

We costing scum a great deal. Our silence absolutely has them terrified I'm sure.

[The Fox and the Hound]

What are the rest of your reads looking like at the moment? Also, have you played with Cupcake/Katsuki before?

I'll post a DV read list at the end of my catch up, but I have played with Katsuki before.

Cupcake you can call scum. You'd be wrong, but you can certainly call him scum and not be scum for it.

Why is Cupcake town? The more I think about it, the more I think he's scum. I still don't really want to say the conclusion I'm reaching there, especially since I think that even if I wanted a cupcake lynch and screamed and shouted it 99% wouldn't happen today, but I do wonder that no one else seems to be thinking the way I am. PV is the closest but the fact that he's made one leap and not the other is perhaps even more odd!

I actually sort of liked his interactions with Tammy (and Tammy made me , but dont think its affected my read there).

What do you think of Tammy's point that he's using what is probably the least valid game possible to assess her, and doesn't seem to care about that?

This is taking me A LOT longer than anticipated, so I'm just going to post and get to some uni work I need to do before tomorrow. I'll try really hard to finish by tonight, but man this game feels like a chore.

[The Fox and the Hound]

AP, are you avoiding me?

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV did something similar too, though

Was this with Nati?

Also, what is your read of our slot?

Actually Nacho too, what is your read of us and how confident would you say you are?

~~

JSU, Titan, I really think you're both town.

~~

Ok, so promised reads. If you want reasoning for any of them, ask. This reasoning may or may not be to your liking!

TOWN

Nacho [Slight niggle that I'm hoping to get sorted, and I haven't heard from Ceph about thoughts on his recent posting, but if this niggle is nothing like I think it probably is then I don't see myself relenting on this read too easily]
Yggdra
Titan
Breakfast with Stalin
Carbon Fiber
Just Sheep Us
Clyton

While I always get paranoid, I honestly feel that the above

could

be all town. They're stronger than my usual townreads and going through each one of them there are things that I have a hard time seeing from scum.

Mastin is mastin. I feel better about her being scum now than I did before if anything.

AP we're still divided on as far as I know. Interested in why he hasn't been answering my questions though!

I haven't read all of the mega posts from RG. What I have read is townish but nothing enough for TOWN to me. Ceph feels similar last I heard, but that's out of date. This is probably the least valid read of mine as I'll definitely need to look more closely at them before making a decision on the slot.

Cupcake- omnomnom

PV- So conflicted! Problem is I feel similar to how I felt about him in NY 172 and he was town there.

Magenta is a similar read to RG except probably less town.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Starting on 175 with a bunch of temporally scattered thoughts thrown in all about, 'cause hell if I know when anything happened at this point.

Red Gyarados: I think I like Brian's posting today even though it doesn't make much of an impression on me a lot of the time. His references to NS seem real enough for me, but I'm confused as to why NS wasn't posting anything himself even when he was apparently more around than he is now. There are little tidbits that bother me, like this one:

*I'm not going back to verify the points between Clyton and Mastin in their 1v1. But I'd probably lynch Clyton before Mastin (mostly because I'm still not scumreading Mastin and I think Clyton is likely to be scum). Also, Mastin is clearly winning their battle as Clyton seems mostly on the defensive to me.

This isn't really how you should look at things like this, and seems like an “I skimmed this” way of coming up with a solution to it. Despite the fact that I'm aware town skim because I've been doing it. For some reason I started feeling more like a spectator than a player at some point today, I guess the walls of doom and my disturbingly stable reads have been a factor there.

I'll revisit your case on him later. But it's kind of hard to agree with you when I've been agreeing with a lot of Mastin's and RBD's points this game.

Pie's case was presented pretty succinctly. I'd like to hear you give a more careful response to 3695. It's not like there is a big wall here that is difficult to muddle through, and it feels a little bit like trying to avoid giving an opinion.

Actually wondering if I should just throw his walls in thread and call it a day.

Can't fathom why neither of you is just doing this.

Because long posts insinuate effort and helps him hide behind the mist he likes to spread as scum (also because a lot of people don't like to read through his walls). I largely skim them and look for whatever points seem important.

Your read on mastin is becoming increasingly opaque.

I am not scumreading you and Mastin just based on connections. I thought your initial interactions with me was scummy. For instance, you start out with a buddying accusation on me and later try to find other reasons for scumreading me. It feels like you are trying to come up with reasons to justify a read rather than organically developing them. It is possible that you are conf-biased town seeing more and more new reasons to confbias your original read but I don't think that that is the case. For one, I can tell you are a sharp player in general, possibly objective, and able to see through the surface level to find deeper motivations. That's what I gathered from the way you play. You insistence on calling me scummy with new reasons each time feel like opportunism.

It would be easier to take this at face value if it weren't about yourself.

Bleh, I sort of touched on this in my last list. Basically, I agree. Emotionally, BRO's focus has looked town and the breakdown has felt town. Their read on me and general lack of progression (cause lol neighborhood?, except not really cause they haven't updated their reads either way) looks sketchy. And I still really don't like BRO hinting that him townreading me should make me trust his reads and him this game...constantly.

I don't know why the breakdown is not enough to earn a massive townread forever and ever. It's not like it's just one thing on a list of why they're town, it's basically an innocent child slip. Unless someone can tell me why it isn't.

Because I had independent scumreads on both of you. The way you both were trying to get out of scumreading each other and get PV lynched felt like you were setting the stage as unlikely partners while setting PV up.

As you'll probably see if I post my page of notes on the first page on AP's iso, I understand now where you're coming from here-- there were definitely some weird notes and timing changes in that whole affair and I get how you could be on this theory now. I think I expressed dubiousness of it earlier, but maybe it was just a thought I had while skimming. I am pretty temporally lost on when you statrted suggesting this, what with having kinda skimmed and now going through things again, but yeah~

I also find it hard to believe that you staunchly believe in Mastin being town even after he pushed you and scumread you for it. You are writing him off as bad town consistently no matter how hard and prolonged the push has been today.

But as AP proceeds to point out, I dunno what the hell this is.

I don't think Mastin-town reads me in a way that 1) isn't exactly correct (I haven't a great track record reading him as of late, for one), and 2) is so simplistic and has so much scumvantage in it. Mastin knows me well as a player, and one of the greatest flaws in my towngame is when I'm feeling too much pressure to read a townie as town: I'm less liable to push them as scum even if I'm getting strange feels from the slot because I don't want to be wrong. He's trying to back me into that corner as we speak: he talks about how town-Nacho would try to work with him and figure out his alignment as opposed to put him closer to death as his head's on the chopping block and votes me because supposedly that isn't happening, but my vote isn't on him. His vote is on me. I'm still engaging him. He's going on rants about dreams he had last night.

This whole post reassures me, particularly this bit. I'm not planning on continuing to quote all the threadspamming Nacho will proceed to do in the following pages (well I probably will with some of it but eh), but I'll summarize here. I think Nacho is town. He fooled me really fucking good in 169, and I said I wouldn't say this ever again, but I feel things here that Casso didn't do to me, there is a lot of genuine emotion going on, and a lot of the reason I pretty much One True Townread'ed him (only time I've ever been wrong on one of those I might add) in that game was the massive volume of quality analysis that really felt like trying to solve the game, not emotional things. I also agree that I felt his handling of the end of day 1 was very town.

Yes? Mastin has been pretty egotistical this game. I think half the reason shes scumreading me is because she cant admit to herself that Im being 100% honest about finding her play atrocious (and here Rg is supposed to be the atrocious pokemon) so shes just somehow convinced herself I must be scum in order to feel better about herself. I really do think that is a thing that is happening. Mastin will deny it, but thats part of the whole denial approach she seems to be stuck in this game.

Has there ever been a game where mastin, as engaged town, has really been so lost in herself while simultaneously attempting to keep everyone else's egos in check? I have trouble imagining her not making ego checks every once in a while when she says things like what she said to BRO earlier.

Yup, thank you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And I hate how she talks about her emotions instead of shows them.

I think this is a lot about what bothers me about mastin in general rather than in this particular game, and lo and behold she often flips town anyway. Maybe this is me doing the I'm-never-right thing.

I was townreading Pie for the same reasons and the read going stale is reasonable. BUT, he's still been town-town-town in the neighborhood so I guess you should just wait for him to return.

I thought Yggdra's entrance was super obvtown as well in case I never vocalized this, but it's a little odd that they are just neighborhooding now when they so desperately wanted to lynch mastin earlier and seemingly still do. Although they do decide to be a thing two posts after this, I feel like they have slipped back out of existence in the interim iirc. Not gonna quote them but 4412 and 4414 are basically what I'm saying I expect, and if pie was expressing something resembling frustrated apathy by now I could understand him dropping off but it seems like the fervor is still there so why are you not yelling? Still would put them in my upper echelon of town reads.

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

This is alarming.

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

That was where part of my resolve that he was scum at the time started to falter. (I wasn't joking when I told Pere my read on him has changed every five minutes.) But I was like would he, as scum, construct this whole narrative?

Yeah, scum love noise. But wouldn't he create a narrative? He has in the past:

I quite like the narrative that I built.

You might be thinking about the narrative showing a masterful RC-SC-DS scumteam. But I'm not talking about that narrative. That narrative, while masterful, is not the true piece of artwork, here. I've told a story, here, a story that involves that story, and that story, that masterful piece of writing I consider to be a piece of art, which I worked hard and long to tell? Is the story of Me. Mastin. Slowly but progressively. Growing back into being me. You can see the narrative grow over time.

The posts start out random, with little order to them. Guesswork. Fragmentations. Representing my broken mind. But as the narrative of my catch-up continues, you progressively can find me growing back into my role. I slowly find a direction. The pieces become more focused. I begin to hone in on things. And then, I make a discovery. A discovery that in a game would cause me to "flip the switch", and from there, I go into top-form. With everything being right on the point. Everything tying together. Instead of being the story, I begin to tell a story of my own. (Thus, why the RC-SC-DS scumteam story is part of the narrative, but isn't the entirety of it.)

And at the end, there's the realization. That I've grown. That I'm back. That I am who I am meant to be. That I've gone from the slums and picked myself back up, into the person I really am.



...And THAT, my friends, is why I'm a storyteller. (I love writing. ) Most people seem to think you can only tell a story in certain mediums, like a book, like a movie, like a comic. Maybe in a game from the flavor side of things. But me? I can tell a story INSIDE the game, entirely separated from whatever flavor there is. I told the story of RC-SC-DS, but that story is within the story I created of ME.

And I think that's where the true skill of me comes in as a player. In that while other players can see individual "characters" involved...I can see the entire "story" of a game play out in my mind.

It might seem confusing, but it's really awesome once you grasp the concepts I'm talking about.

Eagerly awaiting some acknowledgement of this from mastin in the upcoming pages, I say this not knowing if that happens or not.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Nacho I'd like to talk to you about Tammy.

???

After our last games, it's taken me aback.

Empire has a handle on how my irritability manifests as town and I think he probably could explain it to other players.
1
The niggles have been there for a while, though.

I feel like scum should basically be sharks in the water smelling blood at this point. I may not be lynchable today, but I'm getting there. But that's not the only use a bleeding townie has in scum tactics.

???

Mostly, I want reassurance that this fits how you absorb other playeres' styles.

???

If I know Tammy can't be this town as scum (yes, she is townier than red wine), you should too.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also re CF asking me about my suspicion of PV: I thought his attack on Tammy was on a stupid target who shouldn't be a serious suspect for a good long while, and was trying too hard to attack things that should have been attacked? At least that's what I recall thinking, if he's looking like an actual possible vote for me today I will revisit.

[The Fox and the Hound]

shouldn't*

[The Fox and the Hound]

@ Cephrir

,

1) What's alarming? The post you quoted or the Mastin's narrative?

The latter.

2) Are you questioning your townread on Yggdra? Or just saying that they are town but not as obvtown to you as they are to me?

I'm saying I think they're pretty damn town but I still feel compelled to note the inklings of doubt that I do have.

3) So, you understood why I accused Mastin and AP of bussing. But you want to know when I did this? On D1 after their back-and-forth. Your posts are a little difficult to parse because I am not sure what your positions are i.e. you say you agree with something but also disagree.

That makes sense. I know I'm being a bit confusing, it's because I'm trying to figure out what my positions are too.

5) "

It would be easier to take this at face value if it weren't about yourself.

" - Not sure what you are trying to say here. I scumhunt attacks on me just like I scumhunt attacks on others. I think in general, it is easier for people to talk about attacks on themselves but it doesn't make it any less valid.

I kinda think it does make it less valid. Despite the fact that I do the same thing.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I went back and crossed CF's earlier reasoning for thinking PV is town with PV's iso and I can see why CF is townreading the slot (particularly not being useless, trying to be useful in a game filled with noise, following up with the questions he asks, and trying to sort out his reads that have clearly gone against the grain).

Yeah, so, PV being useful no longer means anything to me because of reasons. I don't really remember the last thing here happening.

I haven't read it, but I'm aware of what Falcon is capable of as a player (he meta-dove me pretty successfully in the micro I played with him even though we were butting heads the entire time). But I thought meta-diving is something he's able to replicate as scum?

Look less at the content and more at what he's actually trying to do.

Do it yourself?

Notty thinks you're extremely town in your interactions with RBD/Mastin, but I really don't like your waffling and refusal to move the game forward in a meaningful way.

And I'm pretty sure most of your contributions today thus far has been 'I think Mastin could be town' or 'I think Mastin could be scum.' What do your other reads look like?

Waffling and waiting for everyone else to move the game forward are basically my life.

I'm obviously working on the other reads bit. This will probably have to end in some variety of list.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I fucking told you all Clyton was town. Also, I'm probably going to stop letting mastin walls block up my reread and just not read them, because feeling like I needed to was what caused me to stop.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think Desbro is town, Tammy. I had to Iso their slot to figure out what you guys were all talking about, and the in-game trigger to his melt-down vs yours in too many heads are different. Yous was getting ran up for being lynched without being able to do anything first, while bro's is more being bullied and not being listened to, from what I could see. Both are pretty legit (and I am a little weirded out by desps inability to see both as such as he was your hydra partner) and I think you're right to assume that a persons emotional state alone isn't alignment indicative, but what is, is the trigger.

If people are not going to answer my questions, please actually say that you're not (preferably in some creatively snarky way) rather than make it unclear whether you're reading my posts or not.

Are you honestly saying that using stale meta is a scumtell? I mean, I dont think it means anything alignment wise? If PV is scum and thinks he can get Tammy ML'd by bringing up stale meta in a sleazy way, hes sorely mistaken. And I tend to doubt that purposely misrepping meta is something PV as scum would do in the first place. So I dont really think that even if the game hes bringing up is egregiously out of date, that means anything about PV's wincon in this game. Im interested to hear you talk to me about how it is if thats what you are hinting at here.

The problem I have here is that the question of 'why would town do it' arises. I've played with PV a fair bit and have found him to be pretty logical about things. If he's just played a game with Tammy-town where she wasn't so active/influential/full of content, then why does he point to a game from a long time ago and accuse Tammy of not being as active/influential/full of content here??? I do get that the question of 'why would scum do it?' also comes up, but I could see scum being desperate if all/most of the reasonably unanimous townreads are actually town, and while I may be too influenced by a period of burnt-out PV, I haven't seen his play as scum to be particularly strong.

Obviously I am not anywhere near sure of this else I'd be wanting to vote for him, but I don't understand how you could have liked PV out of the PV/Tammy for sticking his neck out on a read that doesn't actually make any sense.

And you probably are town for actually giving more than zero shits about this while that went down. DV back me ip

If I thought this I would have stopped scumreading mastin a long time ago. I did consider it, but I think the difference could just as easily be down to timing, as when I checked I think mastin's long V/LA period was before this game started, and I know I'm going to be much more eager about a game that's fresh than one I have to catch up on lots of pages on.

I fucking told you all Clyton was town.

K this could be scum with mastin TBH if mastin actually is scum.

How can you think we're scum with mastin after all the Day 1 drama our slot had with them? We're also doing a pretty crappy job of deciding whether to bus or save our buddy!

And are you reading all of Mastin's posts? Be honest.

Mastin lynch >>>>>>>> AP lynch for me fwiw.

Also Ceph has given me as much of an ok as I'm going to get on this, so just going for it. If I misunderstood he can change it.

Vote: MastinSSK

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ok, I haven't read up yet, but this game, in addition to lots of games before it, has made me realise that I really just have not been putting the effort into games (especially town ones) that I should be for a long time now, partly out of lack of time, but if I'm going to be honest with myself it's mostly laziness. Our vote on Mastin was 100% my doing despite Cephrir being uncertain, and I hadn't even read half of her posts.

I want to completely change how I do things, and while it's probably going to take me a few games before I find my groove, my plan here is to go through every alive player's ISO completely and post my thoughts (these being actual thoughts and not lazy one/two-liners). I'm not going to skip someone because I assume I'll just read them as town and I'm not going to skip posts if I think they're too long and can't be bothered.

Ok, now as much as it will probably sound like I'm not serious about this (indeed, I have probably said similar things knowing full well that no one would take it seriously before), I actually really really want people to call me out if it looks like I'm being my usual lazy self. Seriously, be cruel, be vicious, be absolutely vile, let loose those cutting insults that I know you're all dying to use! I don't care if you're town (you don't need to pretend to be nice, this is mafia and it's following your win condition to rip into me!) or scum (free townpoints for the best insult!). If it makes you feel any better I'm sort of masochistic so just imagine I'm getting off on it or something.

I realise this sounds like some sick joke or something, or that DV has completely lost his marbles in another game despite not being voted for, but I know that I'm going to come up with all sorts of excuses to put minimal effort into the game while using reads lists to pretend that I'm actually trying. If I say that I've become really busy at the hospital and just don't have time to follow through on my grand plans, tell me that I'm a hopeless loser with no integrity, because in actuality I'm probably just binge-reading harry potter. If I say that I have personal issues, then tell me that I deserve it if I'm going to sign up for a game and make promises without actually trying in it. If I say that I don't care anymore, then just call me a fucking faggot or something, I don't know? While I would probably be really tempted to start coming up with actual not-lame insults for myself it would be defying the point of this whole post and hey, I don't want to steal all the good ones.

I know this is extreme, but I've tried telling myself to just put more effort in (because I enjoy games so much more when I do!) and stop being lazy, but it hasn't been happening and setting this up (perhaps if I'm really lucky just this post will be enough to do it) is a feasible way I can see this working for me, and honestly I think it's the only one. I'm weird, I'm probably a complete nutcase, but I'm being totally serious.

So let's see how it goes!

Plan for tonight:

-Read up on Day 3
-Do ISOs and post thoughts as I go along.

It will take much more than tonight to get through ISOs properly but this is my only mafia game right now and it's going to happen!!!

And this is pretty obviously DV.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Uhhh, so yeah...

[The Fox and the Hound]

[Out-of-game Edit]I think you're all wonderful people and if I'm being disrespectful at all or insensitive please tell me so[/out of game edit]

Here we go!!!

CF, We're Symphonia and I would love a neighbourhood. Not sure about Ceph, but I don't see why he wouldn't be up for it and mentioned to me that he was surprised we weren't in one yet (I think he expected that we'd be in one starting from Day 2). Obviously if there's a different game that makes more sense to neighbourize then that's totally fine though.

If you haven't elsewhere, please explain your reaction to Tammy. I think it's over-the-top given what little indication of her thoughts she posted and I would probably assume it was a fake attempt at getting her to townread you if I didn't think you were town otherwise. I obviously don't mean to belittle your reaction if it was real, but it's really odd if I consider it without my pre-existing thoughts of your slot.

I deserve what's coming to me though

What's coming to you? If it's pressure/wagon/lynch you're talking about then you can't actually believe that, because you're assuming Tammy is scum for voting you, and a whole bunch of other people were wrong about Mastin (including me!).

Nacho/JSU, what was CF's reaction when he started saying Tammy was scum in the neighbourhood? Was he emotional at all, etc?

I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM AND I WAS TELLING EVERYONE IN THGE NEUIGHTBORHOOS ABOYUT UT

I told Nacho he was scum with yo.

You're right to read Tammy card is in the shredder.

So is your right to read F-16 card.

You seemed pretty confident in Mastin-scum, and although I'm not saying that as an attack and I was obviously wrong too, I'm not confidently telling other people they're wrong about my townreads (in fact I'm feeling quite the opposite). So what I want to know is why are you when you were really quite wrong yesterday?

Oh also while we're here. You said earlier that I'm not an emotional player, but I know you've seen me crack. And even though I often keep up all kinds of facades, I'm pretty sure I'm quite emotional underneath all that, so what was up with that?

Oh also, I wasn't actually sure what Magenta was referring to there, so was wondering how you were?

TAMMY: In the neighborhood last night, it was Desperado who was paranoid of you. F-16 had doubts in small bursts, but reread to reassure himself. That doesn't seem like he's "posturing against you", and I have no idea why he would posture against you in the first place as scum.

So did he actually think Tammy was scum or not?

Nacho, you got some reads?

Nope. I'm approaching today much more cautiously.

Not with F-16 and Tammy apparently?

Does Tammy not know you?

What is the point of this question? I mean, I don't think what he meant is all that unclear, but seriously how do you expect him to respond to this?

Logically, why would F-16 fake this? Why do you think he's faking this?

An answer along the lines of: 'He was legitimately worried he'd be lynched after Tammy's post and thought that freaking out would look really town', doesn't seem all that unlikely to me. I still think he's town and I'm not pushing anyone until I read ALL their posts, but the reaction alone is actually pretty scummy imo, as I've said before.

Aka I'm pretty sure F-16 is half me, half you.

WHAT?

Why is this such a shock?

I told you all about mastin.

Is this serious, or some attempt at irony/sarcasm that I don't understand?

I feel like town-you should have gotten my point, or that I was gunning at something a bit more complex, especially given the conversation we had about Mina and Mala in Wicked re: their early read on Hanzo and how that informed my reads on them.

I feel like this is a ridiculous way of implying that someone is not town. I just don't get how this matters whatsoever?

I feel like they've positionally benefited from the noise that's happened this whole game (interesting that, since the day start, I'm the only one to even bring up Ceph/DV).

I don't understand how any of this is relevant to our alignment either, but again with the trying to make it sound like a scumtell! How does one get from positional benefit to scum?

This is such fucking bullshit.

I should take a picture of that early day-1 positions map I drew. It had a nice little support arrow of DV/Ceph up your ass the way RBD was up mastin's.

Oh so we're mislynches too! Good to know!

Seriously, what does that have to do with anything?

Ya, I think my read on them is from D1 and fairly stale. I sort of realized this at some point yesterday and asked them if they were coasting and one of those clowns said something that made me . So they are priority to sort for me.

I'm pretty sure you reviewed your read on us not-so-early Day 2, so should I believe this?

VOTE: Fox and Hound

This is probably a better place for a vote, for the same reason RBD was a better vote than mastin day 1 in my book.

So, you're justifying your vote with reasoning that you used previously this game, which (gasp) was not that great, and it so happens that the reasoning leads to the slot out of Tammy/Fox that was probably the easier lynch! HMMMMMMM (Good luck with that now!)

IF PENGUIN IS TOWN SCUM CAN READ OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!

Is there anything you can share as to why you think this?

I posted a long ass wall explaining to you why BRO and Desp were town. You ignored it completely and continuous pushed them even though their alignment is obvious as fuck to anyone with two brain cells.

So, you're allowed to call Tammy your strongest townread or whatever and go back on it, but no one can dare disagree with any of your other townreads? I don't think so!

Seriously, it's like everyone has suddenly been recruited into some cult except me and Tammy and has forgotten how to act town.

You "lean town" on Penguin which is absolute bullshit. Penguin has been scum, scum, scum. I analyzed her posts in the neihghborhood. Her push on Mastin was fake. Her role is not fucking town. There is not a bodyguard, bulletproof, commuter, and watcher in the same game. Her role if fake. Her push is fake. Her interactions with me fit scum-Penguin to a T.

Again, how is anyone that thought Mastin/RBD scum confident enough to use their scumreads as a basis for reading other people??? Even it wasn't for me thinking everyone was scum at the moment, there's no way I'm going to be confident in a scumread after that. Sure, I might pretend to be so that chances of people sheeping me rises from 0% to 2%, but actually having it influence a read either means you're insanely arrogant (posts today such as addressed to Nati/Muffin indicate otherwise) or it's a fake reason to suspect someone! So, what gives?

And CF pushing you looks rather OMGUSy at the core, regardless of his alignment.

What does this have anything to do with anything at all ever in a mafia game????

Tammy as scum doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Why now and not earlier?

Okay. I didn't read this post earlier but it makes more sense to vote me once I questioned you about it.

Why didn't you read it?

Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Before today I was almost as sure as I'm ever going to get in you as a townread. I'm keen to reconsider everything today (and you're coming under that too), but even now I feel that I can understand where you're coming from while everyone is else is making me ???. I won't say I'm not considering at all that you're scum, because lolparanoia, but games are more fun when you can trust/pretend to trust people (and buddy them!!).

CF, given your explanation of the neighbourhood, why did you claim to have been calling Titan scum there, when that isn't really an accurate explanation of what happened?

That's it with my read-through. I've probably already broken my plans since I'm not going through ISOs tonight, but I feel pretty good about what I've achieved and actually feel quite motivated to do ISOs and genuinely think I would if I didn't really need to sleep now.

Also some of the questions may have gotten really outdated or already answered so ignore them if so.

(but this doesn't give you an excuse if the above doesn't apply!!!)

[The Fox and the Hound]

She just gave me a heart attack. I can't tye rught noe,. I need to go use the restroom. I'll calm down and talk aboyt ut more in a little bnit

We just saw someone else do this, too. I thought I had a tendency to get emotional about mafia but not being able to type properly is on another plane of flipout that I don't think happens to me. I thought it read fake as hell when mastin did it, but well, apparently it wasn't.

Dang, I was hoping for a scumflip.

I am Yuri Lowell, Town Lone Wolf (modified vig), Tales of Vesperia (you can guess the modification). I didn't shoot last night because I wanted to see Rancid's flip. I shot him night1 because he was total scum (even if he flipped green).

Going home, but want that out there for discussion. I'll try to check in tonight.

I guess this'll look different when you actually show up but this post is way colder than I feel like it should be. Still, a vig claim is a vig claim.

I want to explain why Titan is scum but I don;t hgave it in me. I can't do it. I thought I coulsd calm down in a bit but my heart is racing. I am in a computer lab right now eagerly awaitun for the game to start.

I talked in the neighborhood about how I thought the scum was PA/AP/NAcho/Tammy.

I told Nacho to bring it. I told him to tell Tammy in the scum QT to attack me (As a jkoke). I did not expect that at all. I reeally didn't

I messed shit up this game so badly. I let TAmy set me up forgfettng lynched after pushing so hard on Mastin and Rancid.

Mffin is probably laighing in the scum QT.

Nati as well. They warned me over and over not to collaborate with Tammy so mucj,.

I just went to restroom and tried to calm down and think of all the things why I thought Titan was scum but my mingf id blank I can't thing ruight now.

F-16, I really didn't think you were the type to get like this. I guess I don't think it's fake, because I've thought you were town all game and I usually generally don't think emotion is fake even when it does come from scum, but this seems really out of character to me. Since then this has simmered down to more of a dull roar I guess? (I'm on 210 right now). Though I don't necessarily get freaking out on Tammy in particular, I do see why I should expect some acrobatics from F16 today, and I guess if he was ever going to get emotional then right after this mastin crap (which incidentally is yet another point for the column of "times I should have listened to what my gut said instead of deferring to other people" column, surprise surprise) is the time I'd expect it. And I guess I still don't imagine F16 deliberately pushing that angle knowing it was wrong and setting himself up to kinda have to have a big reaction, whilst in a neighborhood to boot. Though the reaction was more prompted by Tammy, and doing that as scum is definitely something I have seen before by which I mean explicitly done myself.

I told Nacho to bring it. I told him to tell Tammy in the scum QT to attack me (As a jkoke). I did not expect that at all. I reeally didn't

You really think NAcho and Tammy are scum together and Nacho told Tammy to push you? Why would NAcho have to be involved in Tammy's decision to push you (assuming she is scum)?

Because he started setting me up fr the hammer in his first post f the day.

F-16: Why did you not vote at all Yesterday? IIRC, you never voted even once despite tryingto get mastin lynched from the sidelines pretty much all Day. Why no vote ever?

Okay, I am a little calmer now. I'll explain what I thought would happen and what actually hapenned:

I suspected the scumteam to be you, Penguin, Nacho, and Tammy.

I didn't expect Tammy to push me if she was scum at all. I expected her to continue to push BRO. I expected you to push me. You can read BRO 100% Pushing BRO might as well be a scumclaim. It is the same for Tammy and me. Neither of us failed to read each other correctly before.

So, you push me, Tammy pushes BRO-Desp. That's what I assumed the scumplan was. I expected to come into the game to see you vote me. I was ready for it. What I didn't expect was for Tammy to push me.

I can handle pushes from people that know me before. Nacho tried pushing me once in Micro 252, read it if you want. I responded fairly calmly and was able to get one of his scumbuddies lynched. The push went nowhere. I expected to be able to handle Nacho pushing me again. I told him to push me. I told him to show me that he was scum and to scumclaim to me if he was in jest. I even put up a show about how I am ready for him and told him to bring it on so I could see him for the scum he was.

What I didn't expect was for Tammy to open up with a vote on me. I was already feeling like absolute crap about pushing Mastin and Muffin-Nati's lynches and being a dick to ffery about how they were obvscum. I was about this close to breaking down completely. I did not expect her to vote me at all.

Her reaction is a total scumclaim after I responded to it. She didn't even ask me if I was okay although you did. I've played many more games with Tammy than I have with you. I've interacted with her a lot more than I have interacted with you. Heck, you don't even like me. And the only person who asked me if I was all right was you. Tammy just ignored it and continued attacking me which is as good as a scumclaim. As to why she wouldn't push me on her own, it is because she can read me and I can read her. She wouldn't push me unless she was sure she would win. And at this point, I think she knows that she would win. Pushing me is basically claiming scum to me.

Why I didn't vote yesterday: I was going to vote sometime before deadline. There weren't enough fucking spots on the wagon. Look at who didn't vote Mastin. Look at the non-voters. All these people wanted to vote but it only took 8 to lynch.

If you are town, and I still think you are, get your shit together and realize people are wrong sometimes. There is entirely too much of this mindset on MS as a whole. X can read me, so if they're wrong they're scum. It's stupid. Meta is nice and all and it's useful but you can't expect people to be perfect, there will always be a first time. (Yes, I'm aware I pushed the opposite of this in ASOIAF- both because that was part of where I learned this, and because I was scum) Besides, another post of yours (you mentioned Tammy never having voted for you, somewhere?) imply to me you've never been scum in a game with her? If that's the case then you've handed out this card entirely too prematurely. Even if you turn out to be right, I don't believe in this logic.

Right now my reads on Tammy and Ceph/DV are most in question. I feel like they've positionally benefited from the noise that's happened this whole game (interesting that, since the day start, I'm the only one to even bring up Ceph/DV).

First of all, what does "positionally benefitting" even mean and why would it have anything to do with anyone's read on anything? Are you saying players that "benefit" from noise must have been the ones that caused it? It's not like there are scum hacking into mastin's account and forcing her to post massive blocks of noise. I know we weren't very here yesterday, and I didn't mean to not be, but once games start getting away from me I tend to fall into these stupid patterns where catching up on them sounds more and more painful and I never want to do it at all. This game in particular is full of so many strong players that it's really easy for me to get lost in the shuffle, and I know I do it to myself by deliberately seeking out games like this, but I didn't expect THIS much volume. And why should it be surprising that we hadn't been mentioned? We haven't been in the game. We will be now, I hope.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is such fucking bullshit.

I should take a picture of that early day-1 positions map I drew. It had a nice little support arrow of DV/Ceph up your ass the way RBD was up mastin's.

VOTE: Fox and Hound

This is probably a better place for a vote, for the same reason RBD was a better vote than mastin day 1 in my book.

While you're at it, draw me a diagram of why any of that makes the slightest bit of difference.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also, someone is being ridiculously dead-pan about events in the thread and I think they are skyrocketing to my favorite lynch rather quickly.

I kind of expected someone to bite on this or at least play 20 questions with me.

Buuuuut no one has, so I'll say that these posts have stuck out like a sore thumb:

Hi

Team

Was Yggdra actually a scum nightkill?

i want to do a flavor mass claim

Its like Magenta became a robot over the night phase.

Did anybody use a robot-izer on Magenta or are they just scum?

Nothing changed, they've been scum this whole time. By the way are they calling me scum yet? If they aren't Mara hasn't read the thread

prepost edit at CF: I'm just not caught up yet, I'll adjust when I get to it.

@Whoever is asking me to gameclaim: symphonia, we've said this before.

And of course, something happens now that forces me to step away for a while. I'll finish today.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I want everyone to claim child/adult

Geriatrics have pretty fragile bones.

initial scumreads

AP, Mastin, Clayton, DV/Ceph

with mastin gone, I am unsure who teammember 4 would be, thoughts?

There we go, you sure are Mara

You're still probably scum but at least now I know you're reading the thread

Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Hi, I'm Cephrir, and this figuratively happens to me every single game. If it's any consolation I'm down to a mere ~95% at this point!

I don't even know if I buy Falcon as scum. I just don't want to believe as scum he'd basically tell me knowing that I'm town that I've sucked this game, am deluded and can do better. I just don't think he'd go there. I just think that if he was scum, he'd know that when I say I'm lost I really mean that, and that he'd try to manipulate me in another way.

That doesn't seem particularly... anything?

TAMMY: In the neighborhood last night, it was Desperado who was paranoid of you. F-16 had doubts in small bursts, but reread to reassure himself. That doesn't seem like he's "posturing against you", and I have no idea why he would posture against you in the first place as scum.

He figuratively said he knew I was scum and telling everyone in the neighborhood about it.

Okay, here's what actually happened in the neighborhood.

Desp said that you were scum setting us up. I kept insisting that you were town, that your play was town and that I would cry if you flipped scum.

But at some point, I realized that I had never played with scum-you and didn't know whether or not I'd be able to catch you because there's never been an instance of it in the past. So, I went and read Stacking the Deck of Power and saw your scumgame. I saw you and Tierce pushing mislynches and curbstomping your way to victory even after Nacho got Syryana lynched D1. It was at that point that the paranoia really intensified and I started to wonder if the scumteam were you, Nacho, PA, and AP. I jokingly said to Nacho "If you want to blow your cover today and go after my mislynch tomorrow, try it. And tell Tammy in the scum QT to do it as well." I wasn't actually serious but it was part of my imagination. And then, when you opened with a vote on me, I just fell apart completely.

I sort of fantasized about what a you/AP scumteam would do and figured that AP would push me and you would push BRO. It was still a part of my imagination.

This makes a bit more sense, though I dunno why you didn't say it in the first place.

yeah, you were but you don't make a whole lot of sense with Clayton/AP.

Every time I see someone playing like this I want to smack them upside the head

[The Fox and the Hound]

Trouble is I don't see the town agenda here for flipping out on Tammy. I'd say it's emotional, except let's face it, neither of your past OTT responses have been anything other than strategic, either trying to paint me as scum or figure out if I'm scum.

The phrase "town agenda" pretty much reads like an oxymoron to me. That's kinda why emotional reactions often get townreads, they DON'T have an agenda.

I hope I am wrong and that you are town too. It's what I would like. Clyton's post where he claimed watcher was a trigger that almost confirmed to me that the slot was scum after seeing Mastin flip town. I don't know why he claim it but in light of you saying it was fake, I'll think about it.

Explain, please?

CF, We're Symphonia and I would love a neighbourhood. Not sure about Ceph, but I don't see why he wouldn't be up for it and mentioned to me that he was surprised we weren't in one yet (I think he expected that we'd be in one starting from Day 2). Obviously if there's a different game that makes more sense to neighbourize then that's totally fine though.

Yeah, if there is a neighborhood for us to get I would also really like one, I think that would help us engage here.

You complain (AGAIN!) about their neighborhood existing and how they need to get out of it, while chewing my ass yesterday for THE EXACT SAME THING (me: "Hey Tammy, what's going on in that neighborhood of yours?" you:"SCUM! SCUM! SCUM!") and then think Carbon is scum for asking you a question?
And since the above was a question too, I expect another freak-out. Kind of mandatory at this point.
And, Carbon has been spewing neighborhood summaries right and left. So and so said this, I said that, they said that, they said nothing. And you are again (AGAIN!) pushing the "secret" neighborhood play of those within it.
You have yet to compare his summaries with Just Sheep Us or Nacho or Carbon or Yggrda's in-thread play to point out anything different.
This looks like scum paranoia on your part.

:S :S :S :S :S :S :S

[The Fox and the Hound]

Rancid flipped Battleseeker. I assume that aside from the miller part (and counterclaiming Carbon) that his other posting was correct/not lies. Which means two town-gladiator type roles, or one town (Rancid) and one scum (Orcinus).
Magenta has not towned it up for me, Orcinus was marginal, and roles seem to indicate that he is likely scum.

Have you missed all the talk about Vesperia and the fact that town had TWO roles with rolecop abilities in a mini?

Whatever part the role duplication plays in your read, you should probably discount that.

Also, have you so quickly forgotten the NORMAL game you've been referring to, with its TWO town joats, and two town roles with night killing abilities?

If your marginal read on Orcinus is your strongest scum read in the game then go on with you, I guess.

But you absolutely have no basis for dissing my pile of null/null-scum at the bottom of my reads lists.

There was also a game with 2 millers, 2 docs, etc.

But the majority of games have a town version and a not-town version, so I feel OK with assuming that to a higher degree of probablity.

As for further play, prior to his wagon day1, what were Orcinus' reads? Specifically, who did he think was scum?

Are you for real right now?

I guess this'll look different when you actually show up but this post is way colder than I feel like it should be. Still, a vig claim is a vig claim.

????

You mentioned something about not having long, I thought maybe it was more brief/emptyfeeling because of a lack of time and I figured you'd talk more about it later, though that didn't really happen.

Nothing changed, they've been scum this whole time. By the way are they calling me scum yet? If they aren't Mara hasn't read the thread

Care to explain this?

Also I want Cupcake Panda dead today. I dont care if this is Katsuki a la Fate Mafia 2 or just scum, but Im not putting up with this shit.

I know for a 100% fact that my role succeeded on Stalin and there is zero way Panda can have any belief of the contrary.

Mara always scumreads me (Ceph). Even when she's scum.

I'm assuming this Cupcake shit will become more clear within a couple pages (on 218 I think?), at this point I'm still waiting for them to actually claim.

[The Fox and the Hound]

YOUR ACTION EITHER FAILED OR YOU'RE LYING BUDDY #1

CHELSEA TORN
TOWN DELAYER

N1 MASTIN
N2 AP

I feel like with JSU coming to the rescue the automatic response here would be to throw in more JSU suspicion (unlikely) or possibly start backing off. Also ffery, this might be the rolename you were looking for? Dunno who the hell that is, but it sounds like a name to me.

we are van grants, instructor master, even night tracker. ap visited stalin last night.

out ability will fail against replicas.

Wait, what? If your ability fails against replicas, you are also a cop. So, you are a cop and if your target is town, you can track them as well?

yeah

panda why are you ignoring me also saying you are lying?

L2READ

AND YOU CAN SHUT YOUR MOUTH YOU SMUG SCUMFUCK
YOURE NOT SAVING YOUR BUDDY TODAY AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING ME LYNCHED

This overconfidence sounds pretty fake. You have to know you look bad here. I almost want to say scum theater, but that would require all three of them to be scum, which I don't believe.

Alright, well, Stalin and I both claimed to have had interference with our roles. Stalin claimed to not have any limitations associated with hers, and mine doesn't have any either. I assume my role just fails in the same situations other non-modified roles would.

So unless there's a magic third interfering role, I think Panda is either on the losing end of this or we have two scum in JSU/AP.

If you think I would've aborted LURK2VICTORY as scum and risk my head fakeclaiming as scum then you're smoking some serious stuff

???
That doesn't seem outlandish in the slightest.

Great.

Vote: Orcinus

This vote is a scumclaim.

We are lynching either me or Panda today.

Yeaaaaaah, I don't know why we would consider doing anything other than those two things at this point.

Well, sorry for being paranoid about the guy who gloats about getting cop confirmed double self-targeting docs mislynched?

I am trying to figure shit out.

Ok well the only way I can be scum is if BRO-desp is scum, so I'll let you resolve that cognitive dissonance then.

You could be scum that actually visited Stalin with BRO-Desp tracking you there. BRO-Desp's role is OP. There could potentially be some kind of GF-type role to counter it with yours being it. Like I appear guilty to all cops, perhaps scum have a role that appears innocent to all cops? As for Katsuki's actions on you, perhaps you or one of your buddies is immune from being delayed or scum have a counterpart to Tammy's rolestopper role and used it on before game start? That's a lot of speculation but I can't see a clear scum motive for Katsuki to up and claim "AP didn't visit Stalin" for no reason at all either. He's a good scum player as you know from Anything Goes. He'd expect to survive and win the game.

This requires way too much jumping through hoops and twisting to find a conclusion you're trying to find, I'm surprised you didn't realize it as you were doing it. I kinda think you just don't want to be wrong again and are trying too hard to convince yourself.

SO THEN EITHER YOU GUYS ARE BOTH FAKECLAIMING, OR SOMETHING INTERFERRED WITH MY ACTION

DO YOU THINK IT PLAUSABLE THAT ANYONE WOULD TARGET ME OF ALL PEOPLE?!

I THINK NOT

I targeted you.

My message back is that my role explicitly failed.

I suppose there are roles that could explain both of these things... but I don't particularly suspect them of being in the setup...

AP IS OBV FUCKING SCUM

AND YOU GUYS EXPECT HIM TO GO DOWN QUIETLY?

There is an innocent result claimed on me. Yet you still want to lynch me first over the person claiming Im confirmed town.

Get wrecked scum.

While this is true, do you remember town!mollie in the Reckoning wanting to lynch UT even though I claimed an innocent on him?

?

He's saying he's scum for the thought process, but a very town mollie wanted to lynch UT after I weak neighbored him while at the same time thinking I was probably town. It's not unheard of that people make weird moves.

And in this situation, he has a role that says AP didn't do something he said he did. It's just not as clear cut here.

Do you really want to see the fallout if all three involved in this are town? I sure as hell don't. And I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this play coming from katsuki!scum right now.

On the other hand, mollie is nuts.

Because he was bored?

Because he got up this morning and he poured himself some Apple Jacks to eat but there was no milk in the refridgerator so he thought "fuck it Im claiming a guilty on AP"

Maybe Ive been unkillable at night cause Im getting protected?

I dont know. Occams razor. Consult Occams razor.

You can earn my vote for Cupcake by linking 3 other players to him.

:S
This is still and will always be just a bad way to play mafia.

Explain, please?

I thought it unlikely for there to be a bulletproof, a bodyguard, and a watcher all in the same game. That's a lot of restrictions on scum nightkill choices.

Do I really need to say "lolcabdsetup"?

5429

Are you for real right now?

Which part seems unreal?

You mentioned something about not having long, I thought maybe it was more brief/emptyfeeling because of a lack of time and I figured you'd talk more about it later, though that didn't really happen.

Yes. Day just started, but I had to leave work.

Wasn't discussed much overnight or today at all, but I wanted no janitor spec considering I knew the source of the janitoring.

But, we can talk about it. What do you want to hear more about?

Why did you claim, and why with the timing you did?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I actually caught up!

VOTE: CupcakePanda! Looks like we shouldn't have listened to that meta malarkey, DV and I have been passively saying this all game.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This requires way too much jumping through hoops and twisting to find a conclusion you're trying to find, I'm surprised you didn't realize it as you were doing it. I kinda think you just don't want to be wrong again and are trying too hard to convince yourself.

I just admitted that it was a lot of speculation. What surprised you?

And yet you still seem to think it the most likely possibility? Or am I misreading?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am going to consider all the possibilities and I am not ruling out bussing either although it seems unlikely.

Is there a way 2 but not 3 of them can be scum? I kinda want to feel like that's a possibility but I don't see how it would work.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This requires way too much jumping through hoops and twisting to find a conclusion you're trying to find, I'm surprised you didn't realize it as you were doing it. I kinda think you just don't want to be wrong again and are trying too hard to convince yourself.

I just admitted that it was a lot of speculation. What surprised you?

And yet you still seem to think it the most likely possibility? Or am I misreading?

No, I am not sure what to make of this whole thing right now.

I also don't understand the point of a lot of your recent posts. I especially don't like the "if you are town and I still think you are" which just felt off.

Mmk.

I don't necessarily always have a point when I post, that's just how I do catchups. I felt the need to throw that bit in because I felt like it sounded like I was doubting you a lot over the course of those posts, but I'd really still call it a pretty damn firm townread.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I did mean to say, I feel like more people should be expressing more remorse re RBD/mastin than is actually happening. CF is the only one I've seen much out of in this regard, and no I'm not asking everyone to have an emotional breakdown, but something really should have happened I think. Some of those people get to use neighborhoods as excuses, others probably less so (though I don't actually know exactly who I mean or anything)

[The Fox and the Hound]

(maybe Panda despbro and I are all scum together and just going totally ham for the fun )

Could you not post things like this ever because I can and will start believing them

TIA

[The Fox and the Hound]

It feels like it should be a more earthshattering revelation than it actually has been. I expected to see more re-examination of everything, and it didn't really happen.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also, with regards to where Ceph placed his attention, I felt he gave me most of his attention.

And you think that was a good place for Ceph's attention given the game state?

Y'all attribute a lot more conscious decision making to me than I ever actually exhibit.

Rancid wanted to lynch The Fox and The Hound as well as AP citing Cephrir as a "flow-busser" who would bus if the flow went against his teammates. That makes me wonder about AP/Fox team.

You lost me pretty badly here.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Hi, I'm Cephrir, and this figuratively happens to me every single game. If it's any consolation I'm down to a mere ~95% at this point!

I don't understand this sentence.

I almost always have one very strong townread. That townread figuratively always gets paranoid on me for townreading them so hard whilst not being one of the ~select few who is allowed to townread them really hard~. Actually the only time I recall this not happening was also the time I was wrong.

Also, with regards to where Ceph placed his attention, I felt he gave me most of his attention.

And you think that was a good place for Ceph's attention given the game state?

Y'all attribute a lot more conscious decision making to me than I ever actually exhibit.

Rancid wanted to lynch The Fox and The Hound as well as AP citing Cephrir as a "flow-busser" who would bus if the flow went against his teammates. That makes me wonder about AP/Fox team.

You lost me pretty badly here.

Muffin claimed that your scum playstyle is similar to his meaning that you don't bus straight up but bus if the need arises which he termed as "flow-bussing." He said he voted for Hawk to see if you follow the vote and that you did and he concluded that you were scum from it. I'll pull the link in a bit.

Oh, that's right. I think that's a pretty fair analysis of my scum game. But it's kind of a moot point seeing as AP is town. Not to mention, it was DV's thing, and though he does like to check I haven't actually told him not to do something a single time the entire game.

[The Fox and the Hound]

PV, why are you so worried about the exact mechanics of ffery's role? I don't even see why these questions matter.

[The Fox and the Hound]

What is "claim dream state"?

[The Fox and the Hound]

That leaves three more scum among RG, Fox, Magenta, and Nacho. I'm not entirely sure if the game makes sense that way. Sure, Nacho could be bussing Orc, and Cupcake is scum with them leaving the last scum to be Fox/RG. That is not entirely implausible actually.

Scum are probably among penguin/RG/Fox/Cupcake/Magenta.
I think Penguin currently looks the towniest out of that entire group.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I felt like if Desperado's reads list was a woman (or a man), I would leave the life I have completely and elope with it.

I still don't see you calling anyone scum or giving any reasons why they are. For instance, why is Fox, or RG scum? You say Cupcake is scum and you seem to think Magenta is scum as well. With Penguin a potential fifth suspect if one of your scumreads are wrong.

Lack of towniness.

I've never known you to be this non-careful about reading me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Do you think you've been town this game? Be honest.

I don't. I think I haven't had a halfway decent suspect since I decided to rethink Mastin. Other than Cupcake I have essentially no idea who the scum are. I half feel like it's an all town block + Cupcake scum team or something just running the game, because right now nothing actually makes sense to me. I feel like the mockery I call reads are total shit and I might as well ask random.org what to do.

It's also not a lack of caution: you're getting POE'd out pretty strongly at this point of time. If you haven't seen that happen to people before, well.

Of course I have. It feels kind of like being locked out of a survivor game, where I'm just sitting around hoping something will magically change and it doesn't. Let me ask you something. When have I ever sucked this much and not been town? Figuratively never. This whole game is happening on some other plane miles above my head and has been for days. I know saying that isn't going to solve anything, especially seeing as whining is like 40% of what I've done this game. I feel like I'm being pretty childish right now but I don't actually care.

Yeah, I'm not DV. I guess you're trying to make me go away rather than trying to actually consider things. Not that I've ever known how to respond to reachouts anyway.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Even if RG is scum they probably were actually roleblocked.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I could see PV trying to steer the lynch away from the Panda and into the pool of people that are mislynches in this case. In particular, the "I wanna lynch Magenta" makes me think Pv/Magenta are not on the same team. I could see a few people in that last slot. foxhound is possible, maybe Nacho. I sort of expect at least SOMEONE is bussing cupcake right now and JSU seems like the least likely to be doing it*. Not ruling that out.

You really really need to keep your paranoia in check. Do you think PV as scum is capable of picking his mislynches?

Hes not picking mislynches though? Hes just asking a lot of pointless role-related questions Today and occasionally saying that we shouldn't lynch me/Cupcake.

If the pool of {RG, PA, Magenta, You, FauxHound) is 80% town, its pretty easy for him to make generic statements about not wanting to lynch the Panda. Its not even like hes a lone voice in that department. CF is being waffly about it. Tammy and Stalin are.. fuck if I know. But they aren't committed ot lynching in AP/Panda afaict.

If it weren't for the vig claim I would probably want to lynch PV.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I just don't really feel like claiming to be roleblocked unprompted like that is something that has scum motivation unless actually true. What on earth would be the point, unless you're going to argue Cupcake is town and scum knew how this whole day would play out?

[The Fox and the Hound]

It's not like they couldn't just claim roleblocked when they actually fullclaimed if that was the plan.

[The Fox and the Hound]

How unlikely is a Mafia 1-shot Janitor Vig in this game???

It is exactly "lolcabdgame" likely.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Even if RG is scum they probably were actually roleblocked.

You think there's a second town roleblocker?

Well, either
A) There are two town roleblockers
B) There are two scum roleblockers
or
C) RG is scum making shit up for no discernible reason after Stalin already claimed roleblocked.
So, I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility.

[The Fox and the Hound]

There's also the part where we don't know what a Persona-Roleblcoker is. Maybe he blocks people from having their persona (gender/age/origin)?

[The Fox and the Hound]

SO MANY PAGES.

I am catching up now, but it'll probably take me a while because I'm slow.

Yay more.

And more!

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV that's a pretty disappointing catch-up

- What did you think about magenta's suggestion for a partial flavor claim?

- What did you think about two players reporting being blocked?

-Thank you

-I have reason to believe they don't know what they're talking about. I'm considering pushing for an explanation of why they think what they think, but that will come later if I decide on it.

-I think that two players reported being blocked. I don't suspect either of these players nor townread either of these players because of their report. Is there a reason why you think it's important?

~~~

CF, my outstanding issue is you acting all high and mighty on the JSU read (the two brain cells quote) when Tammy was an even stronger read the day previously which you were going back on at the time. I don't understand how one can claim that only stupidity could lead to not townreading a certain player after legitimately having an experience such as that with someone who was previously your strongest townread.

Im pretty concerned that neither you nor DV bothered to listen to my point about mastin's play in that game compared to here. I'd probably say its scummy of you 2, but I know you are confirmed so whatever I guess. Still extremely annoyed that no one gave a shit about me waiting to out this.

I still need to ISO you of course, but I don't really remember you trying very hard to prevent mastin getting lynched (a lot of talk about policy lynching comes to mind), so I don't understand why you can be pissy with me, especially when I think my thoughts on the subject were pretty reasonable.

FOX HOUND WHAT IS YOUR GAME FLAVOR TIA

Why do you want to know?

~~~

AP, is there anything about you that makes certain characters' abilities not work on you?

I know that this should be common sense and already have been answered, but it's amazing how often this kind of thing doesn't happen, to be followed by several 'doh!' moments!

~~~

If you think I would've aborted LURK2VICTORY as scum and risk my head fakeclaiming as scum then you're smoking some serious stuff

Do you legitimately think lurk2victory would have worked as scum? Because I don't.

I am not sure why Cupcake would fake a guilty on AP at this point. With Mastin telling us to lynch AP with his dying breath and some of us suspicious of him, if AP was town, scum could get the mislynch without any loss.

I am not buying Cupcake as scum.

I'm obviously only up to here, but I feel that if scum, Cupcake's position was such that he wasn't going to last long, and I actually don't think an AP mislynch would have been that assured. I am not surprised at all by the apparent number of roleblocking scenarios and so it's possible Cupcake as scum could have believed he'd have gotten away with it due to that. Of course, this also means it's possible that Cupcake is town and his ability legitimately did not work. I haven't made a decision on how likely each is yet, and expect that I won't until i'm caught up.

Unless scum have blocks and misdirections galore

I think this is actually possible.

Yeah but do we really believe that scum have more than one role blocker anyway?

I believe that there is more than one roleblocking role, whether town or scum I'm not sure, but I think there's no harm in my saying the following:

Our role implies heavily that there is more than one role with the potential to use a roleblock ability. Do with that what you will.

WHY THE FUCK WOULD THERE BE A ROLE THAT'S STRONGER THAN COP ANYWAYS?! THINK ABOUT IT, IT ESSENTIALLY GIVES ALIGNMENT RESULT + ROLE CONFIRMATION OF TOWNIES

With the amount of roleblocking abilities that I suspect there are, I think that the result merely failing on scum, gives the potential for a lot of false positives.

The Fox and the Hound - read is stale as fuck and I am not all that happy with where they've placed their attention on day 3, and am very not happy with the lack of attention on day 2.

Why are you using degree of attention to read me?

That leaves three more scum among RG, Fox, Magenta, and Nacho. I'm not entirely sure if the game makes sense that way. Sure, Nacho could be bussing Orc, and Cupcake is scum with them leaving the last scum to be Fox/RG. That is not entirely implausible actually.

Scum are probably among penguin/RG/Fox/Cupcake/Magenta.
I think Penguin currently looks the towniest out of that entire group.

Tell DV that maybe he should actually follow through with his promises.
Or actually do something today!

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

DV: I don't think your avatar is all that cute and I don't think you're a very nice person.

Thank you.

I don't. I think I haven't had a halfway decent suspect since I decided to rethink Mastin. Other than Cupcake I have essentially no idea who the scum are. I half feel like it's an all town block + Cupcake scum team or something just running the game, because right now nothing actually makes sense to me. I feel like the mockery I call reads are total shit and I might as well ask random.org what to do.

Ok, so I just got to this, and while it's a Ceph post I think it highlights exactly what I feel is wrong with how reads on us have been progressing this game. We haven't been very good town lately sure, and we haven't been contributing much, but that doesn't mean we haven't been town. It's not like we have so few posts that they're not able to read us, and it's not like we have been deliberately cagey or closed the whole game. It should be up to them to read us, and with sheer content being so unrelated to alignment for most players (and especially for me), being completely frank here the thought that 'I haven't been very good town here therefore I'm not very town' is ridiculous and defeatist. I feel bad that I have probably been the opposite of a strong town player here know that I've been really town this game, and it confuses me greatly that players such as ffery (who has suspected me wrongly for similar reasons in the past) and Nacho (who would probably be the best player on MS at reading me despite how much I joke about it) are using the fact that I/we haven't been posting much content as reasons why we aren't town.

~~~

Practically finished catch-up. Will finish off and work out what I think should happen today tonight (a decision will def be made tonight, I'll stay up all night if I need to). I know I've taken a really long time with this and I just don't know what to say about that without sounding like I'm making excuses.

Also as always a question may be out of date now, if it is just move on. I can't be bothered going back and changing things.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I didn't think that you weren't serious about people being stupid for not townreading JSU, and I'm sorry if you made this clear and I missed it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

Is your motivation in this game to catch scum or to "provide enough posts for people to get a read on you"?

I still need to ISO you of course, but I don't really remember you trying very hard to prevent mastin getting lynched (a lot of talk about policy lynching comes to mind),

so I don't understand why you can be pissy with me

, especially when I think my thoughts on the subject were pretty reasonable.

You just discarded my point to prevent mastin getting lynched and went back to doing your own thing. And I had to put up with mastin howling about thinking Im scum all day which made me fairly apathetic about defending her, but I fucking tried. Dont tell me I didnt.

-Have you been reading my posts? I've been really really really clear that I want to do better and want to be more involved and get my reads solid and in order and not be lazy with them. However, I am no better at doing that kind of thing as town than as scum (one could even argue for the opposite), and so that is my problem!

-I may have been too rash with that considering I probably didn't read all of your posts so I apologise if I'm just very wrong, but that was the impression I got.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am also sorry that people have to put up with my walls, but there are days where I'm out from 5am until after 5pm and have a lot to catch up with afterwards. This is no excuse to not contribute as I'm a master at wasting time, but walls are probably going to happen unfortunately (and I probably like reading them even less than you all do).

[The Fox and the Hound]

Even if RG is scum they probably were actually roleblocked.

You think there's a second town roleblocker?

I think there are lots of roleblockers! (well maybe not lots but a couple)

Ok, caught up. Now, on AP: (Oh and if you're feeling lazy and don't feel like reading through lots of stuff, I won't mind if you skip through these rambly spoilered things. I know I've done it enough times.)

Spoiler: AP

I'm going to prioritise reading others over perusing the full length of his ISO. Maybe I'm being lazy and I'm bound to be biased here, so feel free to insult me. I've kind of been disappointed so far though. My avatar is not very cute? Wow that really cut deep man! But it was the best I got Nacho so many <3's to you.

But now, actually on AP.

We have:

-CF's claim from Stalin's role that AP did nothing Night 1. Now, this has only just now (like last couple of minutes now) occurred to me (it may have been mentioned already and I just missed it like a doofus, or maybe not), but this actually seems pretty significant to me. First, it matches with AP's claim, and the only scenario I can think of where he as scum would have known to claim no result is if AP is scum with CF and/or Stalin. And this leads to me what I feel is the significant part. How does someone in the scumteam do nothing? This set-up is one where most people seem to have some kind of active role (and I'm pretty sure scum would too!), and if he doesn't, then it would make pretty good sense for him to be performing the kill. It could be that he was actually roleblocked, but I'd expect that would have come up by now if from town (if this happened I'd probably want to know though). So, if I am to make the assumption that AP either would perform the kill and/or have an active role of use to the scumteam, it doesn't make sense for him to be scum unless he is with CF and/or Stalin. I am not sure how comfortable I am with this assumption, but overall I think it's significant. Edit: It's possible he targeted Kagura-town with a result-receiving role and knew that it would be safe to claim no result there, so it's probably not as good as I thought, but I think it does the reduce the likelihood of Kagura/AP scum coordinating their claims (unless the team's AP/Nacho/Stalin/JSU or something) and of someone from AP's team targeting Kagura and getting no result.

-We have JSU's Night 2 claim of visiting Stalin + non-replica. I think this has been covered to death in thread, but of course it's pretty key. Obviously AP being godfatherlike and JSU being scum with him are the two possibilities. First, this is dependent on other roles, but with what we have at the moment, I think it makes much for sense for AP's role to exist if CF is town. I don't think JSU's role alone justifies a miller considering the abundance of roleblock possibilities and even the existence of a godfather makes a more sense if AP is town, in which case he obviously can't be a godfather, but I'm more confident in the first point than the second, and obviously these are moot if other cop-style roles exist in the town.

-Finally from the role-related things, there is Cupcake's delay claim. Unless JSU is scum, we can be pretty confident that AP did not in fact get delayed. I'm getting tired and feel like I'm missing things that I was thinking as I read through, but I think that's all there that's relevant to AP's alignment.

I do have niggles such as the possibility that the initial claim was just a stuff up (although reading over it again I still think it's more likely from town) and there have been posts of his which have bothered me, but the role-related stuff is pretty compelling from what I can see unless JSU is scum too, and even then the Night 1 result raises ???'s. Please do not hesitate to correct me if I've got something wrong or am missing something obvious though, because I am actually struggling to follow one thought on from another in my head right now.

Next, I'm looking at Cupcake:

Spoiler: Cupcake

Regarding the role itself, as I've mentioned I think it's certainly possible that Cupcake is scum. I was going to say 'scum making up the delay' here, but my brain is telling me right now that Cupcake could even be a scum delayer that targeted AP. I'm not sure if that's actually plausible at all, but I'm taking too long with this already so moving on!
As I've said, Cupcake-scum is pretty not safe imo with the gamestate as it has been. Lurk2victory worked with Mastin around, but as I mentioned I really don't see how he would have continued to escape everyone's notice, and I don't think Cupcake-scum would have thought so either. The thing is that the claim isn't even a certain death sentence for Cupcake-scum, as there are town explanations for it even with AP-town, and I believe he could have been fairly confident of an AP lynch given the reasonable suspicion on him before the JSU/CF claims. So no, I don't think scum-cupcake would not do this.

But the big question is, could Cupcake be town here? And just based on roles, I definitely think so. I'll clarify slightly that our role pretty strongly suggests that there are

at least

two roles that can roleblock but I think there's decent reason to not say anything more about that until later. So do I believe Cupcake could have been roleblocked? Yes, I do, but Ceph and I both think that the play from Cupcake itself, particularly relating to the claim, is scummy (although perhaps for different reasons) and I will explain my thoughts here.

The reason why I was interested in cupcake the previous day was the nature of his lurking. He was able to post at semi-regular intervals, but never actually seemed bothered by the fact that he wasn't doing anything, didn't seem to make any attempt to do more than nothing, and wasn't replacing out (which he did in the game I saw Katsuki-town). This made me think this kind of thing was more likely from scum who either had trouble keeping with the game because lolscum, or scum deliberately going for that style of play (which actually fit when people were saying it was Katsuki-town meta). While I still think I could be right about this, I think the things relating to the claim are stronger.

-First, Cupcake pushing forward on AP despite JSU's claim doesn't make sense. JSU is both saying that AP's alignment is town, and that he wasn't delayed. Therefore from Cupcake-town's PoV it should make much more sense to want to lynch JSU, or at the very least express interest in this and work out if it's possible, because JSU-town ----> AP-town, but it's not necessarily the case the other way around. But no, Cupcake relentlessly pushes on AP with no apparent consideration of this (or anything else in fact) at all!

-There's also 5521 which I just really disagree with and suspect that Cupcake doesn't actually believe it either, because it's not like Cupcake was a super popular strong townread.

-And finally the fact that there are many people that are just a lot more likely to be town than Cupcake.

Now JSU (because of the relevance to AP's claim) and I think that will be it for tonight. I'll probably stop early, but I'll get at least some of it done.

Spoiler: JSU

This will be less role-related and more general. My general impression is that everything points to town except the beginning of Day 3 where I had a problem with a lot of their posts, but I'm starting to think that my mood might have affected things there. We'll see. Also will be going in reverse.

His role claim alone seems possible from scum with AP. Claiming it with AP-town doesn't seem impossible, but it would be odd considering they probably would have had a decent chance at mislynching AP otherwise. Cupcake-scum makes this even less likely so I might actually discount them being scum together (or at least make this a low priority consideration).

Ok, so I still think the vote on us in 5261 is pretty stupid. It feels like going for the easier lynch just because the reasoning doesn't make sense, and I still feel the same about the lead-up to suspicion on us in 5246.

And yeah that's it for tonight.

[The Fox and the Hound]

-I think that two players reported being blocked. I don't suspect either of these players nor townread either of these players because of their report. Is there a reason why you think it's important?

And you think there could be 3 (or possibly more if cupcakepanda is town) blocking roles?

Why are you using degree of attention to read me?

There are two of you. Since maybe mid-late day 1 neither of you have been much of a presence in the game. Your catch ups have been forgettable and often lacking questions or opinions about significant game events. Like today.

-I think it's possible, yes. I really don't think the number of blocking roles was important until Cupcake's alignment pretty much relied on it, and I still don't understand why you seem to have.

-That's not a good answer.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think this might be really dickish of me, but

Unvote: CupcakePanda

I would prefer not to have Cupcake lynched yet if I'm allowed to ask for anything at all.

If Ceph wants the vote back, then it's all his. I don't want to get in his way again.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know to be honest, but I know at the very least that such a description has applied to town-me in games where you have suspected me (and perhaps you even suspected me for those very reasons? I don't remember), so the fact that you're using them here is odd indeed.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why not just say it's PoE then? Why the need to add on something that is certainly not alignment-relevant to me and probably not very alignment-relevant for others either?

[The Fox and the Hound]

And my concern that when you do catch up in this game the stuff you have mostly focused on (prior to the last 12 hours or so) has seemed pretty low on opinions about some of the major knots that have developed.

I agree that this is different from the lack of attention and being forgettable (I do feel like you're sidestepping my suspicion that you wouldn't actually be using those reasons as town though), but the main reason I've been confused about this is that the questions you went out of your way to ask me (about the roleblockers and Magenta asking for flavour claim) just weren't things I felt were worth commenting on and I don't understand why this would be something I'd do as scum. I don't know what other things you might be referring to, but I think I've made it pretty clear that my catch-ups were at least to supposed to be quick so I could decide what I really think in my reading of ISOs.

[The Fox and the Hound]

6078 says that it's

lack of presence, forgettable catch-ups

& lack of opinion on game events

6084 says that it's pretty much just PoE

6086 says that it's lack of opinion on game events

It seems that with each question I've asked, you've changed your answer to neatly counter my question, and my particular problem is the convenient disappearance of the bolded.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And I have no idea why town-you would have such a suspicion about my approach to you this game.

It's because in Song Contest, I ended up having absolutely no presence to the point where I had no idea what was going on and almost wanted to be lynched.

My presence was also very low for a lot of Doctor Who iirc.

This is why I don't understand why presence/forgettable posts is a factor at all.

So I kind of don't believe that you would have no idea when:

1. I have said that I often have low presence as town
2. You have played with me-town in 2 of said games
3. I have kind of already explained that this is my problem?

I don't really care about the commenting on game events thing. Obviously I didn't have anything to say that I... well... didn't say, but my problem is with the low presence thing and I think this should be pretty understandable!

PEdit: The description was accurate, that's fine. You thinking us not-town/scum, although obviously not great, is fine. You making it out like lack of presence has something to do with our alignment when it doesn't. That's not.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

Ffery plays with DV in another game! Says that she doesn't read DV as town, citing lack of presence and engagement as things she doesn't like.

HMMMMM. Something's up here!

And that's a nice way of saying that I'm scum.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ffery's read is based on TWO players' activity in your slot.

It's not just you with the low activity and lack of engagement. If you were playing solo, I don't think I'd have the same concerns, or at least not to the same degree.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a similar argument does apply to me, and I would think she'd have noticed that pattern by now as well. We /are/ trying to get back in the swing of things here though.
-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Because at the moment I'm in an unassailable town position - role corroborated and a claimed cop innocent on me with a tracker backing up that some sort of night action actually happened. My shelf life is short unless something massive happens to the game state, which I don't expect.

This is fair, though I don't know whether DV is fully caught up enough to have seen that yet? Maybe he is? I didn't mention it to him or anything.

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery was dead long before you were mislynched and that had nothing to do with her read (mostly Syr's read) of you in that game.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

A mislynch FFery wasn't in on, iirc. My head was mostly trying to sort the star-crosssed lovers situation for the latter half of that game.

I don't feel like these caveats should actually change anything?

[The Fox and the Hound]

That spoiler: Cupcake is actually worth reading, I dunno why you'd tell people to skip that DV~

[The Fox and the Hound]

It occurs to me that I should stop getting upset about POE things when I've been doing them too to some degree :/

[The Fox and the Hound]

Perhaps people will re-evaluate us post-probable Cupcake scumflip. As much as I hate talking about associative tells without a flip I think he's pretty much claiming scum at this point, so y'all might want to start asking yourselves if we've been bussing him all game. Even if we haven't been very forceful, we've tried repeatedly to argue that the meta townreads were bullshit and to draw attention to someone who was visibly avoiding attention.

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV's points are part of the reason why I don't feel confident about reading him. It was a relief that you are part of the hydra, despite your scum game. :/

This is a read I'd totally defer to someone I think is town who has a track record of reading preferably both of you accurately.

You (if you're ffery) usually get me right given enough time, don't you? Maybe I just don't give you enough time when I'm scum.

Mmhm. Well, Nacho is being a dumb, so.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Perhaps people will re-evaluate us post-probable Cupcake scumflip. As much as I hate talking about associative tells without a flip I think he's pretty much claiming scum at this point, so y'all might want to start asking yourselves if we've been bussing him all game. Even if we haven't been very forceful, we've tried repeatedly to argue that the meta townreads were bullshit and to draw attention to someone who was visibly avoiding attention.

you don't really believe this do you

I can dream can't I?

[The Fox and the Hound]

^I've actually been slightly confused the whole game about whether that was a day or night action

[The Fox and the Hound]

Not strong, I suppose. Actually I should probably take it back entirely, looking back at things you pretty much just always end up thinking I'm town and with bigger question marks in the cases where I am actually town >.<
Guess my memory was clouded by feeling like you always get me right as town eventually, which is true but not the actual pattern.
Maybe this game will help you in the future

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(At least, I imagine that's why DV has been a little weird about that issue)

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am focusing mostly on DV since I'm pretty bad at reading Cephrir and am deferring the read to FT.

This seems like a hasty generalization after one game, in which you were reading me correctly at first and then switched.

The thing that seems kind of like information here, that you asked for at the end, is that we can't be roleblocked by players with a certain attribute. Admittedly, blah blah Cabd blah, but that suggests multiple roleblockers. I'd be more sympathetic if it didn't seem like there were two around already.

NY169 was probably one of the worse tunnels I've gotten into on your slot lynching the player that replaced you after multiple days worth of tunneling and thinking that a lot of what you said couldn't come from town.

To date I'm still baffled that my slot was lynched after I volunteered to be lynched over Casso. I think that should have been viewed as an innocent child claim. I'm good, but not THAT good.

From that perspective I liked it too - it's one of the few times DV has pushed anyone in this game that I can recall. It seems odd given his apparent understanding of the game state and opinion about the players involved in the claims, though. It may be that I'm mixing up Ceph and DV if they don't agree on AP, BroDesp and cupcakepanda.

I'm not completely with the thread of this conversation/the relevance but I think we were basically on the same page with those three before the claims fiasco (JSU probably town, AP nullish, Cupcake leaning scum); now, I'm pretty sold on lynching Cupcake, while he's a bit more dubious than I am, and he mentioned feeling paranoid about JSU this morning which is probably something I need to talk to him about. Given that I think the last few pages have been at least kind of productive for us I'm no longer ready to end the day yet either.

Agree, if DV thinks the info actually has bearing on the reasons for lynching/not lynching katsuki.

You might need to read 6117 again, unless DV has secretly noticed something else that he's not telling me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ffery's read is based on TWO players' activity in your slot. It's not just you with the low activity and lack of engagement. If you were playing solo, I don't think I'd have the same concerns, or at least not to the same degree.

This is fair enough, and I think I got too worked up last night. There are still some things that bug me, but I don't feel as strongly about it looking over the exchange again now.

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

why did you tell everyone to be cruel and shit if you didn't come through on your promise to ~~changeeeee~~ if this was how you were going to react the first time someone followed your advice?

This doesn't have anything to do with that.

Nacho includes us in his scumlist.
Ceph posts an IGMEOU smiley face (I really miss seeing that term used in mafia games btw)
Nacho tells Ceph to tell me to do things.

I think that pretty strongly implies that me not doing things is at least part of the reason why we're in Nacho's scumgroup. It's basically saying, hey, if you don't want to be in our scumgroup you better get DV to do stuff!

That's an actual read, not being cruel or whatever.

This is fair, though I don't know whether DV is fully caught up enough to have seen that yet? Maybe he is? I didn't mention it to him or anything.

I knew that.

But, what I didn't like was the focus on scumhunting you in the first place considering you were confirmed by one of Fox's townreads (AP). I get JSU confirmed AP, and I didn't buy it either even though JSU is a strong townread but I feel that the circumstances are different and given Fox's view of the gamestate, he should be treating you as near-confirmed town and looking elsewhere.

I think that normally I would just assume Stalin-town for the rest of the game since I've had a strong townread on them for much of it and AP has confirmed them, but in my very inconsistently successful attempt to change things I've decided that I don't want to just assume something is the case and not further investigate it, especially if I see something that doesn't make sense to me, as there have been games where something has just been very fundamentally wrong about my reads/assumptions and where I may or may not have benefited from more careful examination (and also one in particular where I wrongly ignored slight niggles because of what I thought were good reasons at the time!). If Stalin

is

scum, then that means that AP likely is too (unless weird godfather role), which then would indicate JSU-scum (unless even weirder godfather role), which although is not something I was thinking as the case neither now or last night, if it is the case, then it pretty much means we're in for a certain loss, doesn't it?

There's also the problem of lack of possible scumreads.

The only non- previously strong townreads I have are Magenta, Cupcake, Red Gyarados, which of course doesn't cover a scumteam. So, of course I'm wrong somewhere.

@ DV, if you have info that there are multiple roleblockers in the game, I think that makes a crucial difference in whether or not Katsuki is lynched today so you should definitely out it.

What Ceph claimed is accurate. It's really more of an implication that anything else, but I do think having a PM that says you won't be blocked by any X roles that try to suggest that there exists at least one roleblocker of characteristic X, and at least one that's not of characteristic X. However, because I think Cupcake is scummy otherwise, is one of my few remaining non-strong-townreads, and that if there is an extra roleblocker or two they didn't necessarily roleblock cupcake, and even roleblocked-cupcake could probably still be scum, I think it's most likely I'll still want him lynched after I've gone through the things I want to go through.

[The Fox and the Hound]

our role is garbage anyway. we are lynching in {just sheep us, rbd, mastin} today and that is the fucking end of it

Ok, what is this? Your claimed role is quite clearly not garbage and while town are obviously not going to be truthful about everything, why would you say something completely opposite from what's true. And what makes me even more ??? is that you're presenting yourselves as a lynch option shortly before deadline when the town's already in chaos. If you don't actually think you're going to be lynched and it's just words to look good, then hello scum. If you actually think you could be lynched, then why say this if your role is what you claim it to be? So that you can claim and plunge the town into even further chaos?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm going to read through Nacho/Kagura now.

[The Fox and the Hound]

DID SOMEONE SAY TEA PARTY?

[The Fox and the Hound]

pedit

YES OH MY GOD THATS WHAT I WAS THINKING OF

!!!

I'm just going to wish very hard that you're town (after all it is my unbirthday and wishes do come true) and we'll just dance and sing our way through the game!

PEdit: I've actually really liked his entrance.

[The Fox and the Hound]

My entrances are always amazing

even as scum?

[The Fox and the Hound]

My role PM confirms that there is more than one cop because it says that we appear as a replica to "all" cops.

If both the claimed cops are town and sane (which I wonder if they are), then the scum need to have some serious power to counter them.

I imagine this isn't something confirmed from Cabd, right? Because although I agree that description suggests more than one cop, I wouldn't consider it confirmed.

Is insanity a possibility in this game? I haven't actually considered it up to now and just assumed it wasn't, but I usually play in normal or theme-light games.

PEdit: to be fair notscience it's not unreasonable to think that you'd be able to town it up temporarily as scum, at least imo.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Baaa

[The Fox and the Hound]

CF that post made me smile when I was seriously feeling down about this

thanks <3

Tammy my question about the teeth still stands

If you're town just let all your towniness out and we can make a hipster town core together.

PEdit: I've been feeling the same thing.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Well Titan, I can't deny that it looks delicious!

Also JSU, are you ignoring me for a reason?

[The Fox and the Hound]

our role is garbage anyway. we are lynching in {just sheep us, rbd, mastin} today and that is the fucking end of it

Ok, what is this? Your claimed role is quite clearly not garbage and while town are obviously not going to be truthful about everything, why would you say something completely opposite from what's true. And what makes me even more ??? is that you're presenting yourselves as a lynch option shortly before deadline when the town's already in chaos. If you don't actually think you're going to be lynched and it's just words to look good, then hello scum. If you actually think you could be lynched, then why say this if your role is what you claim it to be? So that you can claim and plunge the town into even further chaos?

PEdit: I can't really sugar coat it for you, it's pretty bad. I'd recommend trying to push through it if you can though, because I skipped a whole lot of posts and felt pretty horrible for it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

@ fox: our role is garbage, though. at best we can confirm two town on d5, or three town on d7 <---with four scum, if we're on d7 we did something wrong (and guess where we're headed!)

we just happened to get lucky and use it optimally last night. this is as good an opportunity as any to remind everyone that without our report on AP, katsuki's claim most likely would have resulted in securing a mislynch on AP, and if you don't think kats could use the roleblocker paranoia that is currently permeating the thread to skirt the lynch tomorrow you're fooling yourselves. think about that the next time you (or kats himself) tries to suggest that what he did was suboptimal scum play. it wasn't, he just got caught

I don't think it's as bad as you say, but can you then explain why you were trying to avoid being night-killed? (I'm pretty sure one of you mentioned that somewhere).

[The Fox and the Hound]

MARA AND PA ARE BOTH DISAPPOINTING ME BY THEIR LACK OF A TOWNREAD ON ME

pedit-

YES THAT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE COMMENT WAS DIRECTED AT YOU

It seems pretty unreasonable for you to expect townreads when you haven't been here.

pedit

YES OH MY GOD THATS WHAT I WAS THINKING OF

!!!

I'm just going to wish very hard that you're town (after all it is my unbirthday and wishes do come true) and we'll just dance and sing our way through the game!

PEdit: I've actually really liked his entrance.

Well, I didn't. He has to do this "I'm soooo town" thing and from my admittedly minimal experience it's still pretty easy to read him based on a simple schematic: if that claim is actually remotely justified, he's town, if it's not, he isn't. Still time I guess.

3) Occams is yelling at me because it seems like AP's attempted to confirm nacho as town and bro is attempting to confirm AP as town and Idon't like it no I don't not one bit

This is figuratively the opposite of Occam's Razor.

Look at my games as scum

the only times I've pulled off town ns aggression was when I

a)bussed

or

b) Was a total prick and then swore off doing it again

Go look at my scumgames if you don't believe me

I can kinda town it up

But as scum I can only reach the townleans

pedit-

Who let the scumfuck in?

pedit-

Okay.

I have been posting the past few pages.

Let's forget for a second about my commenting about the stale thing.

Am I town?

I don't really see how any of this contradicts what you've done in this game.

The scumteam is still Panda, Red Gary, PV, {CF/Nacho/Fox}

How does this not contain magenta again?

Look, PA.

I'm sorry.

I am really, truly, sorry.

But it did bug the shit out of me you weren't townreading me, and I do agree fully I should have read that game however I promise you (I don't think you'll believe me but I'm telling the truth) the last time I posted in that game was post 97. The rest of it was bert. I'm a shitty hydra partner, I get it. I get that we ended up voting a town tracker or whatever and it was bad and I should have been there the whole time trying to do shit but I wasn't and I can't change that.

All I want is to be townread because then I can actually start working shit out with you and Tammy and Fox because there's no way in hell I'm trusting nacho. GIF/pie are dead, natimuffin are dead. I want to sheep bro but that doesn't mean I'm not uberly paranoid of him.

I'm sorry I'm being really obstinate but I'm trying to come back in and do shit but my first and foremost goal in every game is to be townread and not being townread here just... yeah.

Why can't you try to solve the game without being townread?

I'll take the one at the top right please.

How rough is the read up, fox? Like, the tension atm is so thick I could cut it with a rubber ball. Is the read worse?

Yes. You have no idea.

@ fox: our role is garbage, though. at best we can confirm two town on d5, or three town on d7 <---with four scum, if we're on d7 we did something wrong (and guess where we're headed!)

we just happened to get lucky and use it optimally last night. this is as good an opportunity as any to remind everyone that without our report on AP, katsuki's claim most likely would have resulted in securing a mislynch on AP, and if you don't think kats could use the roleblocker paranoia that is currently permeating the thread to skirt the lynch tomorrow you're fooling yourselves. think about that the next time you (or kats himself) tries to suggest that what he did was suboptimal scum play. it wasn't, he just got caught

I still don't think your role is garbage. Confirming townies is really fucking good.

nope my goal is to be as deliberately antitown as possible to bait all the potshotting you all are directing at each other at me instead so shit actually gets done

pedit

Thanks AP it means a lot

Who says that v.v

-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be dragging out like this if that were the case.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Got some music going and now it's time to continue going through exciting, enthralling, not long at all ISOs! YEEEAAAAHHH!

And after a whole bunch of distractions....

Spoiler: JSU

-The defense of AP in 3549 would be pretty bold from a scumbuddy and probably pretty unnecessary if AP is town (Bro has quite decent excuse to scumread AP if Mastin-town was), and was pretty much exactly what I was thinking when I saw the posts. Also I'm pretty sure it's even less likely that JSU misses the fact that CF was a miller.
-3449 is probably able to be faked but is townish all the same.

Stopping here given recent post. Will return later depending on the answer.

Ok, now the main thing I want to check is how well JSU's references to their role match up, but if I notice anything else I'll post that too.

-Note that 5823 is where they confirm that they were avoiding the night kill, with 5701 from CF talking about how Desp didn't care about being transparent in thread. I'm worried that I'm being excessively paranoid here, but I still feel like it doesn't match up. If at one point you think your role is town enough that you don't need to post in thread, I don't feel like you'd suggest yourself as a lynch claiming that your role is garbage in another. And deliberately trying to avoid the night kill so that RBD could gladiate them really feels quite far-fetched.

Actually never mind, I've been proven wrong. That's enough of that.

Spoiler: Nacho/Kagura

First off, I will say that I'm anticipating his case on us with great relish, cheese and guacamole. Extremely sure of his scumread on me? Mmmm yum.



So I just learned that you can't use a spoiler within a spoiler.

Anyway, I agree that his push on CF isn't amazing, but I know my degree of passion varies quite significantly as town, and ime it's similar with Nacho (I think it's especially hard after getting really invested in what turns out to be a mislynch so this makes sense as town for me)
5909 is weird if there's suddenly more than lack of towniness fueling his read of us.
5893 does lean town for me too, because depending on how good their position is, we're probably a pretty vital mislynch for scum, so why actually help me post more? It's possible that it is to look town, but I'm not sure if it's that predictable that I'd respond well to it.
I'm still a little bugged by the sheer confidence in F-16 and Tammy town after the mastin misread and 5172, but less so than before.
I don't recall getting my answer to the emotional thing either?
Reading over Nacho's Mastin suspicion again, it still feels pretty genuine.
I'll continue this later.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sorry, I'm DV. I think Ceph is asleep.

Also, I'd be happy with a Cupcake lynch now. I have suddenly become psychic and have this inkling that I'm going to be around tomorrow, so I can continue my stuff then, and with the weekend pretty much over now, I don't know if I'm going to be able to get out of catch-up mode throughout the week (so if we could have night falling on weekdays that would be great!)

PEdit: Oh I meant Cupcake. Sorry. I think I might have meant that I was agreeing with you, but it was several hours ago that I typed that so I'm not 100% sure.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also just in case this is necessary, I'm not serious about having everyone else change what they do so that I can be more lazy.

[The Fox and the Hound]

CF, I don't know if this is silly, but if you'd prefer not to hammer I can do it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh but DV/Ceph, I wouldn't be surprised at Nacho being confident in a read on me even if he was wrong on Mastin? Nacho's probably in the top 5 people who *can* read me with confidence. Like he probably really doesn't need many posts to figure out my alignment, so.

Thanks.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Actually Tammy, just assume I'm town for a moment. How picky should I be about the accuracy Nacho's read of me? Because I'm struggling with this a lot.

PEdit: Well I don't really care honestly if it's now or later, and I don't care whatsoever if it's you or me that hammers, but if you feel funny about hammering I'm certainly happy to, but I don't know if this is actually a big deal at all or not.

I'm also very indecisive.

[The Fox and the Hound]

That's all I need!

VOTE: CUPCAKE PANDA

PEdit: yeah that's why I offered.

[The Fox and the Hound]

-DV

And yeah I don't know I don't know I don't know.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Is there someone else who went oh tammy you're right maybe all the investigative claims do sound odd? Because all I remember is katsuki bringing up too many investigative roles and me saying no else commented because no one here cares.

What is your problem by the way?

yes, falcon did. he already told you like 10 posts ago that he, too, was erroneously questioning the existence of multiple investigative roles that can't catch scum by design

Yes, I remember his attempts to say that AP was a godfather ala vesperia, but no one talked to me after I laid out all the claims and questions with the setup. Though I think he did point out that Nacho was scum from it.

Look, your credibility is absolutely shot with me and I have no idea why you're approaching me like an overaggressive asshole. If your opinion of my alignment changed over night, savvy, otherwise save your pompous antics for someone who still thinks you have a handle on this game and should be listened to.

IE...NOT ME.

Credibility shot?

Also it does not matter if Bro was the one who had the town read on Katsuki and you didn't.

Bro was here and posting yesterday and didn't seem to have any issues with declaring his previous oh so certain town read was scum.

True :/

vote: magenta_thegreat

*

This does make an awful lot of sense admittedly.

re jailer claim & target thereof: an interesting coincidence.

Overnight DV and I have determined that we don't have a clue who the scum are basically. Everything just keeps not working...
-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

But he later decides he doesnt care and calls Tammy town because everyone else was which does not feel like the PV I know and love. UGH. Can people just actually be awesome and town this game? For once? Just one person?

Wait that happened?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think me saying that I'm working on figuring out how to use it in a protown way. Why are you guys bugging me to out what if she's town and scum don't know what she gave me, it could be immensely beneficial for town?

I thought we were talking about "why the game could have ended" still, not whatever the hell PA gave you.

That's what I'm referring to.

But, why are we still talking about me being paranoid?

Because unless you guys are going to turn this into some weird case for me being scum. OHMYGODS she's such obvious scum because she got paranoid and thought the game could end. Only scum would do that! Look she didn't even have the mindfulness to look at the numbers?!? Gotta be caught scum there.

Unless you're going to do that, the both of you are just engaging in this for a distraction.

Yeah, I really don't see how Tammy not knowing/caring how many players are alive is actually very relevant to anything. There has got to be someone this game who's deliberately antagonized her, it's just happened so much.

I'm on phone but I don't think you/pv are scum together. Feel free to correct me.

I know you've realized there is no reason for this now, but if there's exactly one scum here it's probably magenta just like it has been all game.

You are talking about me confbiasing AP when AP has been confbiasing me since he entered the game. It is pretty obvious I am town here if you rethink everything I've done in this game. Day 1, I cc'd RBD when he fake-claimed miller. You know that my scumgame isn't at a level where I would do such a gambit. I don't care if people who don't know my playstyle think that I gambited but you know it is impossible coming from me. There's also not a chance I'd leave you alive over Pie who was townreading the absolute crap out of me because you are a massive threat to me as scum. I've played with you enough and read enough of your games that I know that if you truly want someone dead, it is highly unlikely that you'd be unable to drive the lynch through. There's no way, I'd let someone like that live on, least of all when they are very closely familiar with my game. Third, look at my activity level. I really shouldn't be posting in this game when I've been so busy - and yet I am. I've been trying really hard to figure this game out even amongst the chaos and the noise. Even, look at the tone of my posts for over 500 posts - walls and all. Look at my interactions with other players, with you etc. It is also really obvious that I genuinely believed in my suspicions of Mastin and Rancid wrong though they may be.

I think it's pretty damn fair to be full of questions right now. No matter what one's reads are, there comes a point where you have to step back, realize you are doing something massively wrong, and try to figure out who/what the issue is. I'd be more concerned about people *not* getting paranoid.

Tammy, if you're town, I expect you to do a metric shitton with that VC.

...???

Votecount 1-31

With 17 players alive, it will take 9 votes to lynch or nolynch.

PeregrineV

(2):

AngryPidgeon

,

Mac
MastinSSK

(1):

CupcakePanda

Just Sheep Us

(5): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados,

Breakfast With Stalin

,

Rancid Broderick Drake, MastinSSK

, Kagura

AngryPidgeon

(1):

Lord Business
Rancid Broderick Drake

(6):

CarbonFiber

,

Just Sheep Us

,

PeregrineV

, The Fox and the Hound,

Yggdra Union

, Clyton
Not Voting (1): Titan

Blue is probably town claims (Vig+Miller)
Purple is confirmed to me/desp via our role

Weren't you going to do some giant VCA or something? Is that not happening?

VOTE: JSU

btw

You seemed pretty sure AP was scum just now and suddenly it's sheep time?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh also, with regards to whatever Tammy is not talking about, I think it's reasonably clear she is being deliberately vague, and it probably isn't for no reason, so why are we badgering her about it

[The Fox and the Hound]

An eyebrow? Sure. Spending multiple posts attacking her about it, no.

If Cabd put a death godfather in this game I will fly to California just to smack him upside the head.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Try to use VCA in a cabd based game as a bullshit reason to push me while avoiding saying why things I've said come from scum ns.

Does the game change how useful VCA is or isn't? o.o

At this point, as we've recently established, we're getting to the point where the burden is on you to look actively town if you are. In my view, at least, that hasn't happened thus far.

[The Fox and the Hound]

dear cf/nacho scumteam hypothesis,

shut up.

sincerely,
common sense

[The Fox and the Hound]

Titan, I don't think there was anything scummy about Carbon's actions toward the end of day. When I first saw the flip that crossed my mind as well, but I think if anything it would be more odd coming from scum than from town. Also, my indecisiveness is such that I kind of need someone to just tell me to do something sometimes. I felt like Carbon Fiber understood this.

I came up with something but I'm not sure whether to talk about it yet. We didn't really talk in the neighborhood because I didn't trust Nacho. I asked him who his last partner was besides AP and Penguin. He didn't tell me. I asked after daystart him why he didn't kill you since you'd make it harder for him to blow his cover and get me mislynched. He didn't respond to that either.

What was Nacho like in the neighbourhood last night?

Fox and Magenta are null.

This is a little ridiculous though.

And you are the only claimed even/odd role in the game which makes me squint funny.

There could easily be even/odd night scum roles that we don't know about so I don't think this matters all that much.

Dv feels genuinely perplexed in people sumreading them I guess although that could just be good faked scumplay.

I think this kind of thing is why you're not getting any townreads. Almost any reason to call someone town could be negated with the line 'but it could just be really good scum'.

Are you serious right now? Why are we talking about hypotheticals about whether or not you would hammer if Tammy asked nicely enough. You didnt hammer. You told DV to do it so you could be off for moral VCA purposes.

I'm feeling iffy about Carbon Fiber myself, but this is uh.. not good. I thought Cupcake was scum. Carbon Fiber obviously wasn't that into it (let's assume town for the sake of this). Although when it comes down to it I don't really care who hammers as I'd feel we were equally responsible for the lynch regardless, for CF it was obviously different as he preferred not to hammer a wagon that he didn't really believe in if there was someone who thought Cupcake was scum (me) around. As I said, I don't relate to this viewpoint, but I think it's understandable, so CF is either town and this makes sense, or is scum with this probably not being very relevant to his alignment. As I've implied before, if anything I think taking this alone would make CF less likely scum.

And part of my problem is that you're not actually looking at everything. You're discounting some things because you have a *strong read* which is fine but coming up with new ways that AP is scum without for one second considering the possibility that JSU is scum is a whole metric fuckton of confirmation bias. I, for one, don't see how you can be so sure. I have postulated that you are so sure because you guys are partnered because it's really the only reason why you've been going on about AP but not really pushing him and then using the Mastin scum read AP so he's scum scum scum! When Mastin isn't all that great at reading AP; I mean in Anything Goes he was 100% certain AP was scum when he was town telling like crazy. The day two suggestion that it should be AP instead of Mastin after you declared that Pieguy was the only person you trusted to lead the town and Pieguy was tunneling on Mastin. Why did you all of a sudden decide to suggest the day should go away from where the leader was saying to go? In some instances you look like you're trying to tie your partner AP to people in a weird manner.

Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now.

Nacho where is this case on us you promised? I need it just as I need water, food and a steady supply of mafia role PMs to feed my unhealthy addiction.

NACHO, JUST

BE

TOWN! YOU CAN DO IT. PLEASE BE TOWN.

And yeah this.

...I think I need to be the lynch today.

I'm going to spend some time in a hole, but I think that's going to be my conclusion.

Please stop this train of thought right now.

~~

Ok, finally finished reading. I'm most likely not going to have time to properly investigate anything further until the weekend, but here are my sort of not very well formed thoughts at the moment.

TOWN

Titan- So many of Tammy's posts make me think town and there is such a lack of things I find scummy that I'd be so amazed and impressed if she was scum that I'd probably be happy losing to be completely honest.
JSU- Not quite at the Titan-level, but reading their ISO pretty much quelled my paranoia there yesterday and although there are posts here that do make me go urgh, there are quite a few things that point to town that are perhaps even more solid than my reasons for Titan-town, so my conclusion is town. If there's significant suspicion of them when I get the time to do so, I'll write up why.

Then, there kind of is

AP- JSU result is very close to being good enough for me + there's his reaction to JSU today which I feel is pretty unnecessary if he's scum with JSU-town (I guess scum with JSU is still a possibility but I don't think I'm up for considering JSU-scum scenarios right now) and other reasons which I've mentioned previously.
Stalin- I think I still need to read their ISO (and if I have I've forgotten that I've done so, so would probably need to read them again anyway!), but I currently feel like putting them here, so here they go!
PeregrineV- Probably needs a read over too, but I remember thinking that how the claim went down made sense as town to the point where I wasn't eager to start considering scum-vig theories.

Probably a gap here, and then:

CarbonFiber- I'm pretty sure this will be the first ISO I go through when I have time. I worry it might be excessively paranoid of me to place him here, but it's how I feel right now so deal with it. You can probably guess at least part of the reason from what I've already posted (although not exactly), but I feel like this is the kind of read where I could be insanely stupid for scumreading it, or it could be the scum that will skate by unless someone does something about it! So yeah I'm probably not making much sense now because I'm tired and not even sure enough of what I think here to even pretend I can explain it in some sort of coherent way, but I will explain it better later, promise.
Penguin- I really liked Clyton thinking he was some important member of the town in addition to other posts of his and Penguin has looked pretty town to me too.
RedGyarados-I think it's possible I'm too attached here, but notty feels town to me.
Nacho- He needs to talk to me. I'm not going to let him get away with supposedly having a case on me but saying nothing further about it and not even paying attention to my posts as either alignment.

And then we have...

Magenta- Interested to see where their claim goes, but to me they're pretty clearly the least town of all my reads and I remember thinking them slightly scummy way back, which probably isn't anything that substantial but with me townreading everyone else that's good enough for me!

So yeah apart from Magenta I actually have no idea (and at this stage I even feel like Magenta could be town because lolwhynot), except for Nacho making me feel all weird inside which could mean scum but I don't know yet (because he won't respond to my posts!!!).

This is just current impressions though of a not-entirely-with-it DV so they could probably change as I'm going to try my best to work this out. And I can't say this enough, but please please please hold me to this. I have the tendency to be really lazy and I really don't want to be.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't get what the issue with DV's post is. How is agreeing with someone about a concern opportunistic? I feel like a broken record but I feel like people *should* be reanalyzing/losing their shit, that is what you're supposed to do when you mislynch three times in a row is it not?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Obviously someone else should chime in though since I am about as biased as it is possible to be

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'll explain properly later as I'm busy now, but CF you're being really silly.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ok here we go. This is gonna be good. (or completely horrible depending on how you look at it)

Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now.

Are you fucking kidding me? I responded to that post ages ago.

So more on how your response is not actually a refutation at all later, but first, how does responding to/refuting an accusation mean that agreeing with that accusation is a detestable sin?

'I agree with this!
'No you can't agree with that because I RESPONDED to it before you made that post!!! So nu-uh!!! Oh you're also scum for that. Have a good day!'
'Uhhh?'

Yeah, I don't think that's how it works.

Second, I think it's pretty clear that I'm commenting on posts as I read them, so I think you'd know that I wouldn't know about your response as I made that post, and even if I had completely changed my mind about you it wouldn't change the fact that I had that thought as well, so another reason why I think you're going on about nothing!

Third, I don't even say that I think you're scum with AP. I just say that was something I was thinking and worried about (and the thing I say about Ceph should make it obvious that it was what I considered a slightly outlandish theory). The same post obviously indicates that my read on you has weakened, but I don't really explain it and actually make a note of saying that it's not exactly what I'd mentioned previously.

So, uh, whatt?

I am apparently finding new ways that AP is scum but not actually pushing him.

Um, you actually have been making a big show of how you suspect AP without ever trying to get him lynched, so I'm not really understanding the sarcasm here!

Like, are you actually kidding me with the "Woah... Tammy, this is EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY something I've been thinking and worried about. I haven't even mentioned it to Ceph yet because I thought it was too out there, but I feel so irrationally happy right now." This is just... bad.

Yes I'm not allowed to even consider that you might be scum. Got it!

Foxhound and Magenta seem to both be ??? for us (although I have Fox more as null and Magenta more as scum).

Ok I'm sick of this. You've happened to get me at a time when I don't care about the role stuff making you probably town and I'm not trying to pretend to understand why people wouldn't be townreading me (lucky you), so... WHY ARE WE NULL? (I've convinced myself the caps is actually because I don't want you to miss the question and not for any other reason). Both you and CF were previously townreading me/us for reasons I thought were pretty good! Now, even though I'm pretty sure I've been more transparent and more town than I've even been in my last ~10 town games (I mean, getting people to insult me as scum, seriously?), we get a nice, boring, inoffensive null. Problem for you two though is that I don't find it very inoffensive! If it was that we were pretty town but other people were just more town, then I'd think that was a bit odd, but I'd probably accept it (I actually feel the same way about a lot of people this game!), but I'm pretty sure scum view us as a scrumptious and juicy mislynch, and these nulls are exactly what I'd expect to happen (and CF grasping for reasons to scumread me too, how cute!)

And then DV posts saying that somehow it all makes sense and agrees with it opportunistically.

Ok so to make it clear the big thing for me was the part about you having this really weird unfailingly strong read on AP but never actually trying to get him lynched (and I think the part I quoted was pretty mainly about that?). But no apparently I think you're not scumhunting and not looking at things from a town PoV. Ok then!

I found DV's hop to be opportunistic and just overall scummy and that's why I refuted all the points to show why I disagreed with him.

Ok, so let's take a look at your grand 'you're not allowed to scumread me ever after this' refute.

You are talking about me confbiasing AP when AP has been confbiasing me since he entered the game. It is pretty obvious I am town here if you rethink everything I've done in this game. Day 1, I cc'd RBD when he fake-claimed miller. You know that my scumgame isn't at a level where I would do such a gambit. I don't care if people who don't know my playstyle think that I gambited but you know it is impossible coming from me. There's also not a chance I'd leave you alive over Pie who was townreading the absolute crap out of me because you are a massive threat to me as scum. I've played with you enough and read enough of your games that I know that if you truly want someone dead, it is highly unlikely that you'd be unable to drive the lynch through. There's no way, I'd let someone like that live on, least of all when they are very closely familiar with my game. Third, look at my activity level. I really shouldn't be posting in this game when I've been so busy - and yet I am. I've been trying really hard to figure this game out even amongst the chaos and the noise. Even, look at the tone of my posts for over 500 posts - walls and all. Look at my interactions with other players, with you etc. It is also really obvious that I genuinely believed in my suspicions of Mastin and Rancid wrong though they may be.

1. 'My scumread is confbiasing so you can't call that a scumtell!' Oh wait...
2. 'I'll just ignore your other posts and talk about how town I am' Ok, I don't think that's scummy, but it's not really refuting anything, is it? (I'll probably say my thoughts on this when I actually decide what I think. Believe it or not I still don't know if you're a scumread yet!)

I'm going to head out. I want to hear comments about DV's recent post.

It was amazing! He posted exactly what I was thinking!

I'm genuinely concerned about DV's posts. They feel scummy.

Ok, I need to go for a while now. Sorry if I've been significantly less nice than I should be anywhere. I have no idea what I think of CF at the moment, so don't ask me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

posts

points, not posts

[The Fox and the Hound]

CF, Day 2 you expressed that you'd rather lynch AP than Mastin, but apart from saying that iirc you didn't make any more effort to direct the lynch that way. This wasn't a big deal imo because you seemed pretty invested in the Mastin lynch too, but it fits in with the more concerning later stuff.
So Day 3 Cupcake lynch day. You're pretty obviously not that into lynching Cupcake and think AP is scum, but you become resigned to a cupcake lynch so early in the day, saying that that was going to be the lynch anyway. Now for someone not so invested in the game I would understand this (I'm sure I've done the same thing as town), but if you were as invested as you appeared, I think it makes much more sense that you'd at least protest against Cupcake's lynch. I don't think you even voted for AP?
And today, again, you're saying AP is scum, but I don't actually see you pushing him to be lynched and you're instead attempting to get everyone to discuss us, and it looks like you're setting us up for a lynch, especially when the reasoning your using either doesn't make any sense (from today) or is based on old posts despite the fact that your ISO contains this gem:

However, I also like DV's latest catchup walls and it feels like he is genuinely trying to figure out the game.

Apart from the last thing I'm not sure on what happened as I haven't gone through your ISO properly, but that's along the lines of what I've been thinking.

As for Tammy, I don't remember what I have agreed with and what I haven't. I'm sure there have been some of her posts I've disagreed with, but I'm not going to comment on everything I agree with and disagree with. The reason why I reacted the way I did this particular time was because for a long time I thought that you/AP was an unlikely combo because of your suspicion of each other, but then I realised that you'd never actually put AP in any danger of getting lynched and was not entirely seriously entertaining ideas of you actually being scum together. And then Tammy posts that she finds your behaviour relating to AP odd in the ways that I did and it felt worth commenting on to me. (and also made me feel like I wasn't going crazy)

She's probably the last person I plan to re-evaluate just because there's nothing I've seen that makes me think scum and so many of her posts reaffirm my townread. I know the buddying's probably been a bit much and the townread may be irrationally strong, but everything I've said is how I feel and I don't know what else to say about that.

[The Fox and the Hound]

That's not what I was saying. I was talking about mindset.

Also, my point was that there was nothing in that post that actually refuted what I was concerned about (probably not what Tammy was concerned about either), so you thinking like that was some big deal struck me as really odd and possibly struggling to find a reason to scumread us.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you've been reading the game, you'd have noticed that there was really no chance of anything other than a Cupcake lynch happening. I pushed AP against Cupcake but no one was listening and I just sort of gave up because some people seemed determine to push through the Cupcake lynch and not consider that AP was scum. And if the Cupcake lynch was happening, I wanted it to happen sooner rather than later. As for voting, please don't ask me why I am voting or not voting any particular player or when I choose to vote or not vote. You are not going to get anywhere.

Day 2, I suspected Mastin with AP as a second suspect. Mastin wagon was what was happening. That was the lynch that was going to go through - the one on my top suspect so naturally I pushed that lynch harder. I wondered if Mastin was town a few times before deadline and that's why I suggested lynching AP. I guess it is not impossible for scum to keep their buddies as their second/third suspects while pushing town lynches but the entire interaction between AP and me since he joined the game makes it unlikely that we are buddies and it should be fairly obvious to anyone. In any case, what is your read on AP? Are you scumreading him?

I suspect you =/= setting you up for a lynch. You've been doing this with nearly everyone that suspects you in this game. I said I liked DV's analysis and effort into the JSU/AP/Cupcake team but I didn't like a lot of the other posts that I linked above.

Also, if you suspect a me/AP team, quit being completely ridiculous and help me lynch him then.

Well the whole Cupcake lynch/AP thing is what I want to investigate, and I may as well do it along with the rest of your ISO. I plan to get onto that tonight.

I think my AP read is as it was when I posted my reads list last night, and as indicated there, I currently think you more likely scum than him, but as I also said there, I feel that apart from JSU and Titan (and who actually knows with them really?) I don't have a good grasp on the game at all.

Well of course you're going to say that you're not setting me up for a lynch. Even now you could go back on it and find me scummy enough to lynch or whatever. You said you liked my catch-up walls (I'm pretty sure this more accurately describes the posts you just said you don't like than JSU/Cupcake/AP but I plan on thinking about that as I ISO) and then you said you didn't, so obviously if you're scum that kind of thing is not beyond you.

I do worry about being too OMGUSy, but I feel like I've had good reason every time I have lashed out at someone for suspecting me, and it's not like I've ever relentlessly pushed a lynch because of it. With Stalin, ffery was using something as a scumtell that applied to the two main town games we shared. Nacho is nacho, and with you, it seems like you have contradicted yourself (although I am cautious about this) and I've explained why I think your response to my agreement with Tammy was kind of bad.

There's also the fact that unless the scum are all among the top universal townreads (in which case we're all probably doomed anyway) they're probably running out of mislynches to procure, and even though I think we've been really town, we're obviously not townread strongly by anyone with a lot of influence, so it makes complete sense that scum would want us lynched, and we're probably one of the easier ones left to get. So even though I'm not going to get carried away with ranting about people suspecting me, I'm definitely going to consider it and pressure people where I can.

That's not what I was saying. I was talking about mindset.

Also, my point was that there was nothing in that post that actually refuted what I was concerned about (probably not what Tammy was concerned about either), so you thinking like that was some big deal struck me as really odd and possibly struggling to find a reason to scumread us.

I think we are referring to different things. I was referring to more of Tammy's push on me about "coming up with new ways that AP is scum" while ignoring my multitude of posts pointing out that AP was doing the same thing so it felt odd that you went "oh, I agree" instead of "isn't AP doing it too?" I didn't realize your actual fear was both AP and I being scum.

Also, I take back what I wrote about helping me lynch AP in my previous post. I got serious again after swearing I'd let AP and Nacho win and congratulate them at endgame so. It if up to the town to figure shit out and I'm not going to push the town into lynching my scumspects.

See this is what confuses me. Everyone always goes on about how having good reads is only half the battle, and it has been mentioned many a time that my lack of confidence impedes me in this regard, but this kind of attitude surprises me from you and has me wondering whether you're only justifying it so that it fits with your play this game.

And if you are town I'm really sorry for losing it earlier.

oops

[The Fox and the Hound]

-No, the possibility that you and AP were scum (and reasons for it) was the part of Tammy's post that I had also been worried about, but the reason why I've become concerned about you in particular is that I think you haven't exerted as much influence as I'd expect (with the AP thing being the best example of this). That's why I said in my reads post that my changed read on you was somewhat related to my comment on Tammy's post but not exactly. I haven't gone so far as to decide whether you being scum would make me more seriously consider AP-scum (although part of my reason for thinking AP-town was your miller claim so I suspect that I could).

-But it is the reasoning that I have a problem with. Obviously town misread others all the time so I could very well be suspected by town here, but if I think the reasoning defies a player's previous experience with me, then I'm going to be concerned. Your initial posts in response to my Tammy comment were really flawed to me and because of that seemed like a read of convenience rather than a natural read change, especially since you had expressed little concern about my posts before that. I will admit that sometimes I go too far with this and I think self-centredness has something to do with it also, but I don't think there's too much harm if I react strongly as long as I'm not actually making lynch decisions out of it, and perhaps there's even value in being aggressive, I don't know.

-I need to go over this. I may be wrong.

-If you mean considering people's reads of me when forming reads then yes. Best example I can think of is my town --> scum change in read of Titus in teen wolf mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=775 (Pages 32-35), oh and also I think it was part of my AP scumread in NY 172 but finding it would be difficult.

-CF, changing my posting to help you read me as town is what I do when I'm scum (and also sometimes when I'm town and about to get lynched but shush don't tell anyone), so I don't think it's reasonable to expect that I do that... for now.

-The attitude of 'I can't make town vote for my scumread' (which I feel almost comes with the added on 'so I won't try too hard to convince them'). I expect that you'd be more involved in directing the town. This could be wrong of me, but your posting here does suggest a certain confidence in your abilities as town so I think I can assume you're not like me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm really sorry and I probably deserve a barrage of insults for this, but I've decided to put off doing more ISOs until tomorrow and the weekend.

CF, I can not discuss this properly as things stand. I've said what I thought, and your challenges are not things I can either counter or concede without looking back at your ISO (and I know I'm being difficult by not doing this now, so sorry for that).

I do not appreciate you repeatedly implying that I am not reading posts, as I have been reading every post since the beginning of Day 3. Sometimes I'll forget things or have misinterpreted something but it doesn't mean that I haven't read it.

I really feel like I need to take a break from this for a day, so I probably won't post anymore tonight.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Like this is my biggest issue

I feel really awkward challenging it

Which is what makes me nervous it's a ploy

I feel this. Like, I've been townreading them the whole game, but today/yesterday when I found myself starting to wonder if maybe that was a fakeable thing, my automatic reaction was, "stop that Ceph, you're a bad person". I'm not saying I think that necessarily, but I should be able to consider the possibility.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And that is the main reason I keep thinking you town and that's horrible of me because it also feels like manipulation, but desbro are not bring town and it's so frustrating that no one else sees what they're planning to do tomorrow,

Have you already said what this means?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Scum are 4 out of these 6 players {AP, Nacho, Penguin, Magenta, FoxHound, RedGyarados}

Whichever of you are town, make it obvious please

See, the problem is I think it's obvious already.

lol Gyarados

Fox (if they are town and I think they could be) have annoyingly been scumreading everyone that suspects them which makes it a nightmare to get a proper read.

So I think this is a pretty poor excuse to not get a read on us (especially considering 6860). It's also actually pretty unfair considering that Stalin suspects me and while I think I quite reasonably (you haven't given any good argument otherwise) pressured them on that earlier, my last reads list had them as town. And the third thing is that you've actually been behaving similarly this game. The times that you've come closer to scumreading us have been the times that I've been less sure of my read on you and pressured you accordingly. I don't actually think it has occurred anywhere else. The same thing happened with Tammy earlier, and you are similarly more responsive to those townreading you (e.g. JSU) than those not. So I don't think this quote actually applies to us any more than it applies to you, and so I wonder why you'd make a point of complaining about it if it's actually similar to your own play (and I'd actually wonder in any case because I don't think it makes any sense.)

Titan, I think JSU is town. I'll explain it in full when I get time. This weekend at the very latest. Tonight if I'm feeling keen after my CF ISO/possibly other things.

I'm not going to respond to any posts in response to this one until I finish doing my CF ISO thing, so feel free to respond, but it may take me a while to get there.

Oh wow all the PEdit.

Ok, maybe I will post some more.

Nacho. You're here. Stop avoiding me. If you're town show me. Please.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also you guys are up late.

You are all great.

[The Fox and the Hound]

or maybe you're just getting up at a reasonable time. I don't know anymore.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ugh, that sounds exhausting (and possibly monotonous)

now you get to have mafia funtimes at least...

[The Fox and the Hound]

I hope it lets up. I barely ever stay up past midnight (and often need to be up at 5 these days!), so I don't know how I'd survive.

PEdit: That's pretty fair actually.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Awesome. Hopefully you're awake enough to enjoy it!

Ahh, why can't mafia just be like this?

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV it's really strange that such a sweetheart like you prefers scum

I'm going to disagree on the sweetheart thing, but I actually suspect that the preferring scum thing might be changing. I think before I loved it because my life was just a whole bunch of masks anyway, and so it was something I felt more confident in just because I'd sort of had real life practice at it. Now, although I probably haven't made much progress in this area, I've become really tired of wearing masks and desire nothing more than the opportunity to be completely open, so being scum has become less appealing I think. I'll probably have to play another scumgame to find out for sure because even though I felt kind of indifferent during my last one I had activity problems during that. Also this is probably more than any of you wanted to know about me, but yeah!

*summer semester

mafia is always like this sometimes!

I will be awake enough to enjoy it. i Just need to sleep today to get it, but Skype already messed up my sleeping schedule so!

And here I was thinking that summer meant holiday.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Thank you Tammy.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Spoiler: CarbonFiber

-I still like FT's first post.
-The account of FT and F-16's interaction in 418 feels genuine.
-I like 443 and there definitely is a great deal of effort put into his posts.
-Note: RG only non-likely town in early CF reads list.
-Posts such as 639 and 646 feel town because it just seems so unnecessary from F-16 as scum, and doesn't have the advantage later posts had of being emotional and the type of thing scum could do to look town. Obviously not true if Titan is scum, but I don't think I'm going to be thinking that.

I tend to re-evaluate reads if my townreads disagree with me if I am not confident about them. But if I am, I am usually the one persuading the others to lay off and it shows more with my townreads i.e. I am more stubborn about derailing bad lynches than caring too much about which of my non-townreads are lynched.

Keep the above in mind for later.

Only halfway through page 1 over their ISO, but it's getting to the point where there are so many posts I'm reading over at least twice when I realize I wasn't actually thinking about their alignment the first time, so this will have to continue tomorrow!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Except Mastin said with his dying breath that you were scum and his townflip made me suspect you more. I initially considered that you were scum together but also wondered if he was town and you were scum at some points.

I don't really see why this would be a change, she said it with every other breath too. She also called basically every player in the game both town and scum (hi).

The playerslot I was pushing were fake-claiming my role.

This still isn't logic, there is still no reason two millers would be totally farfetched.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Well, your opinion is of decreasing relevance to my interests.

[The Fox and the Hound]

No, I've been viewing you as more and more crazy as the game has progressed. I might take your opinions more into account if you stopped bouncing off the damn walls.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Your response felt scummy because you are commenting on stuff that should be incredibly obvious. X knows Y very well, X died and flipped town and called Y scum. So, I take X's opinion into consideration. I don't get why you are acting like it is really far-fetched logic that you can't understand.

I guess it's just that I never see anyone actually doing this

Secondly, there are several things in AP's post that are factually wrong. For example, saying that I called Nacho scum for not voting. I didn't. Saying that appeal to authority is scummy (it isn't). The fact that you didn't comment on anything or correct him shows you are either positioning yourself to scumread me by commenting negatively on my posts. Because you would either a) not comment at all and let it play out, or b) call out something that is blatantly wrong and don't mind inserting yourself into arguments.

The fact that you doing it selectively feels like you are not actually scumhunting.

You're assuming I have a clue. I wander into people's arguments all the time. I'd think the "let's wait and see what happens" approach is more one I'd take as scum.

You keep doing this thing where you attribute plans and trajectories to my posts. Like, "Ceph must be hating on this post because he plans on scumreading me later". I don't really work that way.

[The Fox and the Hound]

No, I've been viewing you as more and more crazy as the game has progressed. I might take your opinions more into account if you stopped bouncing off the damn walls.

This feels like a massive discredit because I pushed you and DV earlier. Your reaction was just bad. You and RG were two of the slots I was unsure on and so interacted with both of you to try and sort you.

NotScience responded wonderfully. He addressed my concerns about his slot, explained Brian's reads, explained his other reads when asked and in general was incredibly transparent. You and DV on the other hand, scumread me for scumhunting you, throw in discredits, and try to position yourself against me. If you are town, I don't even know what to say.

It is a massive discredit. I think everything you're currently saying needs to be taken with a grain of salt if we don't want to drive our paranoia bus into the ground.

I can try to explain our shitty reads if that would make you feel better? If we're not being transparent in any way it's because we have no idea what is going on.
I can't really comment on DV's responses to you intelligently seeing as I didn't make them, but I feel like that conversation pretty much happened and everyone else can take from it what they will.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I still can't get over how many hoops you're jumping through to make AP scum. This is something that continually bugs me.

re 169: I stopped following that game. Perhaps you did.

My lack of clue about this game and wandering into arguemnts are uncorrelated. I do the latter constantly and usually get scumreads for it. Ffery could testify to this if she was still here.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If my objective was to discredit all points made on any front by every player who was scumreading us don't you think I'd have done it to anyone but you

It's almost like I'm describing my true intentions or something!

But, you trying to dismiss my suspicion of you as crazy doesn't bode well.

I don't care for the insinuation that I'm not also concerned about your other things

[The Fox and the Hound]

I still can't get over how many hoops you're jumping through to make AP scum. This is something that continually bugs me.

Why

doesn't

it make you suspicious that AP is jumping through a bunch of hoops to paint me as scum?

Instead of telling me two millers are unlikely, you should be telling AP that godfathers exist in the game. It is your take on the argument that I find scummy. If feel like you are spending time refuting the arguments of people you are positioning to scumread instead of looking at it objectively and then falling back on a "I have no idea what I am doing."

Because I can kinda see where he's coming from, and it's all based on inthread things anyway rather than cop results.

Of course they do. I am sure he is aware of this. The point does remain that you should be hesitating given the cop result rather than immediately jumping to the godfather conclusion. Overconfidence makes me wary, largely because of who I am.

I'm not positioning. I'm saying what I think about different posts. This is how I play mafia. Eventually it all, in theory, adds up to an opinion. If you look at every comment I've made towards you this game, in entirety I think it's pretty clear I still believe you are probably town. So does DV at present, and I imagine rereading you will probably lead him to affirm that opinion. D3 and 4 have been giving me more doubts than I had before, sure, and the game just generally going to shit is making more dubious of everything in general.

Assuming you are right is not the same as looking at something objectively, and it's kind of silly of you to claim such when you are clearly tunneling.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This still isn't logic, there is still no reason two millers would be totally farfetched.

i'd like everyone to take a moment and consider why there would need to be multiple millers when neither claimed cop role can catch scum as it is. if there were multiple replicas in the game, our role would fail against at least 6/16 players in the game + all the roleblocking shenanigans, moving it past the point of kinda shitty into totally and completely useless.

There wouldn't. But you hadn't claimed at the time.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh, unless you had in the neighborhood?

[The Fox and the Hound]

@JSU: what I'm saying is that when CF pushed to lynch RBD based on him being a miller, there was no reason for anyone other than you to think two millers was stupid.

Obviously there is NOW reason to think there weren't two millers, because we can see that our investigative role(s) are not very strong and RBD has flipped not miller. By "still" I pretty clearly meant "I continue to feel that at the time this line of thinking was kind of sily".

[The Fox and the Hound]

ap you are just wrong. i am saying that we subtly supported falcon's push because his claim fit our role

That's great but is also missing the point

i was never defending carbon fiber and everything you said you were saying to me is irrelevant because i wasn't bringing up my role as a reason for falcon thinking anything. i was bringing up my role to remind fox, who said "there STILL IS NO REASON there couldn't be multiple millers" that my role speaks against that.

Yes, obvouly it is now the case that there are not two millers, why would I say that? The other claimed miller is dead...

I'm gonna go play league now instead of this

[The Fox and the Hound]

AT THE TIME, falcon's logic was sound and we knew that because our role says so

do you get it now?

His logic doesn't count as sound if he didn't know why it was sound v.v

Nachomamma8 propose a scum team for me.

Orc/PV/penguin/fox

..................................................................................

Everyone, look at this very carefully and tell me what you see. Concentrate on it for 5 minutes.

It could not possibly be more boring?

[The Fox and the Hound]

The only thing I find at all town about PV's post is his explanation re Tammy, but even that is curious seeing as he doesn't seem to have such stringent requirements for anyone else

[The Fox and the Hound]

Woah, what is going on?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Woah, what is going on?

Vote Tammy please or explain in detail why you won't.

I'm not voting Tammy because I have no idea why I should (I'll read up soon though).

[The Fox and the Hound]

Thank god, someone that actually makes sense posted. You should have killed AP N2. Anyways, PV, give me a quick update on where your reads are at.

Unless the last 30 pages contain mystical answers to as yet asked questions,

Town-me, you, JustSheep

Not first choice for scum -
Breakfast
FoxHound

Used to think was town before replacement
16 Penguin_Alien16 Clyton
4 Magenta_thegreat (mara and orci) 4 orcinus_theoriginal

Leaving 4 scum by PoE & play

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8) <--most likely
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane) <---I know this is unpopular, but I want empirical evidence of townhood, not circumstantial
9 AngryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling) <----This may be switchable with the 2 categories above it.
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience) <-----because I still have a null-read 7000 posts into the game. Experience says that it's probably scum.

Thisthisthisthisthisthisthis. So fucking this.

Just look at this post, see how much sense it makes.

I was getting really confused and lost with all the latest posting but I'm glad PV jumped in and actually started making sense and looking at the game in a way that I can understand. Thank god you are in the game.

How is this not sarcasm??????????????????????????????????????

Like really

If we want to lynch town who isn't worth shit lynch me (but save brian because he is :d)

Town-Tammy doesn't vote me. She scumclaimed. What do you make of that?

I don't have enough ellipses to express what a retarded argument this is.

Woah, what is going on?

Vote Tammy please or explain in detail why you won't.

I'm not voting Tammy because I have no idea why I should (I'll read up soon though).

You'll still have no idea why you should when you catch up.

The very idea that you would ask our slot, of all slots, to vote Tammy when she has been our strongest townread since page 20 or so, is truly baffling.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Gah, pretending to suspect Tammy always ends in disaster.

UNVOTE:

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am actively searching for a reason you would deliberately antagonize Tammy AGAIN after apparently feeling bad about it before and I am coming up empty handed

[The Fox and the Hound]

Okay here's the thing Falcon!town doesn't actually make a case for my scum game being awesome while reading me as town. Falcon!town doesn't do the shit he's doing this game. Falcon!town doesn't see PV post a reads list which has his strongest town read in the scum team and go THANK GOD YOU MAKE SENSE I NEED SOMEONE LIKE YOU.

Falcon!town never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a million fucking years, goes tammy wants to be lynched what's the hold up.

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER.

Like really

If we want to lynch town who isn't worth shit lynch me (but save brian because he is :d)

Town-Tammy doesn't vote me. She scumclaimed. What do you make of that?

I don't have enough ellipses to express what a retarded argument this is.

What is the difference between 7151 and 7146?

Why is 7151 not also a retarded argument?

Because they are completely different?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Okay here's the thing Falcon!town doesn't actually make a case for my scum game being awesome while reading me as town. Falcon!town doesn't do the shit he's doing this game. Falcon!town doesn't see PV post a reads list which has his strongest town read in the scum team and go THANK GOD YOU MAKE SENSE I NEED SOMEONE LIKE YOU.

Falcon!town never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever in a million fucking years, goes tammy wants to be lynched what's the hold up.

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER.

Like really

If we want to lynch town who isn't worth shit lynch me (but save brian because he is :d)

Town-Tammy doesn't vote me. She scumclaimed. What do you make of that?

I don't have enough ellipses to express what a retarded argument this is.

What is the difference between 7151 and 7146?

Why is 7151 not also a retarded argument?

Because they are completely different?

Tammy: Town-Falcon doesn't do X!
Carbon: Town-Tammy doesn't do X!

Logically, they look the same, as in the same arguement.

Tammy cited fourish things she didn't see Falcon doing.
Falcon said "voting me ever is a scum claim".

How is this not sarcasm??????????????????????????????????????

You recognized that I wasn't being serious?

No, I thought you were, because it sounded like sarcasm but you'd been saying that for a solid page so I figured it must not be, which I found baffling.

I am actively searching for a reason you would deliberately antagonize Tammy AGAIN after apparently feeling bad about it before and I am coming up empty handed

I never antagonized but do you find it scummy?

It's certainly not doing you any favors. In before you accuse me of posturing again.

And what exactly do you suppose is that scum motivation for making purposefully weird looking posts directed at PV to see how he would react?

The thing that bugged me about him was he never, ever doubted my affiliation in a way that bothered me. I acted strangely in front of him to see how he would react. I didn't expect Tammy and Fox to find me scummy and push me for it but when they did, I rolled with it to see how others would approach it.

The one solid read I got out of it was NotScience as town.

How on earth would you not expect us to attack you for that

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sorry to disappoint, still Ceph. To answer the question anyway, I'm not sure there is anyone aside from Magenta that I actively want to lynch right now.