[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[mykonian]

seems logical. I think I would like

don't cut the red wire.

[mykonian]

Nominate JK9

I think Eye C9 is too harsh on scum

Eye C9 has two roles that have basically half the chance of a cop of catching scum, and can't confirm innocents, though they have the advantage over a cop of not both being able to die in one night. So I can't see how it's harder for scum, than, say, California.

simply wait till tracker has found one scum: after that, he claims, that night, watcher watches tracker and the game is close to unwinnable for scum.

[mykonian]

Games where mafia can become town are

bad.

not normal

[mykonian]

Clever name goes here

2 Scum
1 Recruiting mason
6 Townies

Scum & masons each get a quicktopic, recruiting mason dies if he targets scum, recruiting is not compulsory.
I was considering putting a watcher/night watchman in there, but wasn't sure if it was necessary... thoughts?

This looks pretty cool on principle

Is it balanced and has it been

seconded

yet?

I've played something like this before, and it is hard enough with only one scum. I think town will lose quite often by misrecruiting.

[mykonian]

Ack! Hans! Run!

2 Mafia

1 Hans (Can call the coast guard once to stop the mafia kill, whatever it is)
5 Townies

=
2 mafia, 7 town minus nightkill N1

[mykonian]

I disagree. If hans doesn't think he is dying he saves the kill, at least night 1. Getting the right lynch is more important than preventing a non-hans n1 kill.

I think hans is a really interesting role.

It is an interesting role in this case, as it shouldn't be lynched till the power was used (2-6 is mafia favored, isn't it?). And in case Hans is sure he doesn't get killed the use can be that the fakeclaim is still available.

But if Hans would be killed night one, he kind of lost the game, didn't he? And if he uses it later, how much does he win?

It is not a bad setup, but "hans" doesn't make it more interesting then a 2-7 setup.

[mykonian]

death millers aren't that bad in open games, you see them coming then.

[mykonian]

Sure Gurgi, you have a point. But if people want to play with a dead miller sometimes, open games is the place to do it. And also, the setup leans more on scumhunting then with a normal cop, because town will probably have contradicting evidence from "cops" at the end of the day.

On the other hand, I don't know if the doc is needed here. In case the real cop is very convincing, something that is likely to happen when he finds a guilty, the setup is broken instantly. in lylo there is less chance of this happening. That means that in case (1/3)*(3/5)*(2/3) ((chance of guilty n1)*(change of non pr nk)*(chance of investigating someone still in lylo)) the game doesn't have to be played. 13% of the times this happens.

[mykonian]

ok, instant lylo. How big do you think the chance is that mafia is lynched then?

after that, the vig must shoot mafia, while the mafia cannot shoot the vig. (2/3)*(1/2), that happens 1/3 of the time. This is in case the vig isn't lynched. That's what I first thought.

Best town strategy? cop claim? If there is a cc, then two possibilities:

cop is lynched, vig shoots fake cop, 50% chance mafia doesn't shoot the vig, and it is game over. otherwise 2-1 lylo.

mafia is lynched, cop is nk'ed, vig shouldn't shoot. 2-1 lylo.

randomly 75% chance on 2-1, 1/3 that you win there. 25% town has lost anyway. Mafia wins 25%+(1/3)(75%)=75%

unbalanced...

[mykonian]

Why shouldn't the vig shoot?

because the in case the mafia is lynched, and he misvig's, the game is over. Situation doesn't change if he doesn't shoot, only that there are 2 more talking about the lynch.

NK-Immune Miller Vig V.2

2 Mafia

1 Cop
1 NK-Immune Miller Vig (Loses powers after N1)
1 Fake NK-Immune Miller Vig who is also a back-up for the real NK-Immune Miller Vig(Told he's a NK-Immune Miller Vig but isn't.)

doesn't change: this is biased towards mafia, and by a lot. town wins 25% of the times with copclaim.

without copclaim. Assuming mafia isn't lynch day 1 (that is hard to do.), then town wins only 1/9 of the times.

[mykonian]

What makes you think cop claims the best?

because that can confirm one person, and in case of a cc, it also confirms one scum. Both cases you get 50% of lynching scum randomly.

How can it be certain that the mafa won't be lynched day 1 without making it clear that they're scum?

Simply because it is 2 against 3. All the town people must agree on the lynch, without knowledge of previous days. That is hard.

[mykonian]

Can you explain how you get 1/9, I don't get it.

sorry, yes, this is wrong. very wrong.

(chance that vig hits)(chance that mafia hits vig)
(2/3)*(1/2)=(1/3)

only in case the cop is lynched day 1, this becomes 1/9, as (previous)(chance in lylo)=(1/3)(1/3).

If vig is lynched day 1, cop has 2/3 chance of checking someone that is not killed. Mafia will probably cc, 1/2 chance of winning. That means (1/3)(1/2)=(1/6). Most likely, scum will easily win this game. Even if my numbers aren't close to right.

[mykonian]

psychiatrist makes it a bit swingy, doesn't it?

[mykonian]

Tracker/watcher is even worse as cop doc, as this doctor (the watcher) finds one scum in that case...

[mykonian]

LP, this is obviously not the place to ask it, but here we go:

games that take under a week, you only see here during marathon day. Those games take maximally a few hours, most times less.

Further, some games are "fast" but still take many weeks. This has sometimes to do with low activity levels, but also with the need of town to get as much information as possible. Some games indeed just drag out

that means that activity is not so much a problem for you, you can check your game daily, and keep up with it, or perhaps by looking at it twice a day.

[mykonian]

Adel, farside used the wrong name for the setup. It is the polygamist setup, that means 12 players.

but I can tell you that it won´t be that slow. I´m in it

[mykonian]

actually, after previous game, it seems that polygamist can be a bit more favored for town, but that is something I want to test out now.

but you are right, only 2 day's both.

[mykonian]

actually, after previous game, it seems that polygamist can be a bit more favored for town, but that is something I want to test out now.

How'd you come to this conclusion? We had an easy win on our hands

you didn't pay attention

[mykonian]

Won't the Tracker auto-nail the Mafia doing the killing, since the Tracker would be told that "Player X went to Player Y's house last night". The next day Player Y turns up dead. Player X is scum.

Am I missing something about the Tracker role? It seems with only 1 killing group in an F11 setup you're giving the tracker too much power, because he automatically knows that the person doing the killing must be scum, and not necessarily a pro-Town killing role like a Vig or similar.

The difference lies mostly in the fact that he can't say for sure someone

isn't

scum. The tracker becomes just as powerful as the cop as soon as one scum is lynched.

[mykonian]

I've seen "Suicide Bomber" called a "Yak" (Yakuza) somewhere else.

Epic.
Mafia.

sigh.

[mykonian]

oh, and the role has a small problem:

It is basically a superkill, added to the normal mafia kill. You don't want to risk to lose that, so the role is pretty much every time used N1. It isn't really a great role, and a most boring one for the player getting it.

Further, the setup is balanced with a strong force of information roles, which is needed on epicmafia, but which is generally not really wanted here. A bodyguard and a watcher KILL after a trackerclaim. which makes that setup mostly about role interactions: great for epicmafia, not that great for MS.

The second setup has the same problem: too many roles. Killing roles in that case, but that is pretty much what has to favor the town.

[mykonian]

okay. First the lie detector. Not a brilliant role, as it creates mod involvement. You really don't want that.

Next, the Yakuza. Because the Yakuza is confirmed scum after his death, his death might be beneficial to town to find his buddies. The best tactic would probably be to use his power n1, pick out a townie with a good reputation. This is quite boring for the Yakuza.

Next, randomness in the SK role. MS doesn't really love randomness, so this won't make you loved (though it isn't necesarily a bad role).

For balance, we have a 3 mafia-1 SK-10 town (if yakuza uses his power quite early in the game). That is probably quite normal, though it gives town only 1 real mislynch.

[mykonian]

I've played epicmafia too, and have played as the yak there once or twice. It isn't much trouble when the games only take 10 min. , but it is hardly a fun role in a forum game.

And you are here to be loved as mod. You are there to make your players have a fun game. If they haven't, you failed. It isn't such a problem for the sk, but in mylo/lylo the difference between a towny killed or a mafioso killed can be quite big. If that part of the game is pure luck, the scum and town's influence on the game becomes less (or the extreme situation: luck deciding who wins the game): that is the part the majority of the players doesn't like.

[mykonian]

I have a small mini theme I'd like someone to look at. Shouldn't be too hard balance-wise.

[mykonian]

Switch is kind of a bad role here (as the switch and the SK don't share allingment, the switch will try to stop the sk. Killing is stronger then RB, so only the RB power will be allowed)

Ok let's try this:

Weird Wroles Open:

-Daystart
-15 players

Town
1 Super Saint (If lynched, kills the player who hammers him)
1 Guardian Angel (Has one-time ability to permanently protect a player from night-kills until the Guardian Angel dies)
1 Reporter (Chooses a player each night. The next day the mod will post in-thread if that player left their house and all players that visited that player during the night.)
1 FBI Agent (Each night PMs me a player. I will tell them if that player is the serial killer. Once he finds the serial killer he turns into a

one-shot vig

cop)
5 Vanilla Townies
1 Death miller (are you actually reading this?)
1 actor (can only vote as hammer (this could confirm him early, or could be what scum tries to fake. Really don't know if this is a good idea))

Mafia
1 watcher
1 terrorist (1x the ability to blow himself up with another townie: he doesn't know the scumteam, cannot talk with them.)
2 goons

Third-Party
1 Roleblocking Serial Killer (Each night the Serial Killer picks one player to be killed and another to be roleblocked. Wins when last one alive.)

How's this? Also how do I get to be able to use this when I mod an open game?

and sadly, if you are modding an open game, people decide what setup you are running. If you run a mini normal, you can make the setup, decide if it is open, semi-open or closed.

However, 15 players means it is a large game, plus that the roles are quite odd. You would have to run it in the large themed queue. You'll have to run 2 games succesfully before they let you mod there.

[mykonian]

and please, no multiple watchers, or a watcher and another information role in one game.

Watchers are worse then docs.

[mykonian]

A. I never put a death miller in there
B. I give up

That's because I edited your setup

[mykonian]

love the idea, but this way you are mostly creating a themed game, and not so much an open:

what roles would you use?

[mykonian]

Politics:

1 Politician (can buy 1 person's vote each night)
2 Governors (can prevent a person's lynch, gets to save each person once)
1 FBI Agent (investigates someone each night, is told if they are a public official (politician or governor)
5 Law Abiding Citizens ('nilla townie)
1 Mafia Politician
1 Mafia Governor
2 Rabble-rousers (Mafia Goons)

Good Idea? Bad Idea?

First thought: bad idea. You have 4 mafia, 9 town. With 1 mafia governer, town will lose at least one lynch. Town governers are almost always an anti town role. They serve here mostly to make sure mafia has easy fakeclaims. With 4 mafia, and 9 town, town has only 2 mislynches. With scum (per definition) buying a town vote, and with a scum governer, town probably has only 1 mislynch:

9-4
lynch is stopped + NK gives 8-4
mislynch + NK brings you to 6-4 with one townie's vote bought. If the towny politician didn't buy a scum-vote, town has already lost at this point.

The setup has the inherent problem that the politician and the governer role are much more effective in scum hands. I don't know if this:

1 scum politician
1 scum governer
2 town governers
1 town politician
4 vanilla townie's

is better. 10p setup to adjust for the mafia governer, and to make sure you end up in a lylo (in stead of mylo where the politician becomes decisive). Town would have 2 mislynches.

[mykonian]

wow, wait. You definately don't want full governors. I assumed 1-shot governers.

[mykonian]

Paranoid Gun Owners

Mafia

(3)

3x Mafia Goons

Town

(9)

6x Vanilla Townies
1x Odd Night PGO
1x Even Night PGO
1x 1-Shot-PGO or Vanilla Townie

I really like the PGO role, but many opposed to it dislike the problem associated with the lack of ways for scum to deal with a confirmed PGO. You either have to sacrifice a 1-for-1 at night, or push super hard to get one lynched. The Even/Odd night PGO's only work every second night, so they are both counterable,

and also creates an interesting gameplay for townies trying not to draw the NK, which runs contrary to how you would normally play VT.

I'm not sure if you want this.

And hoopla is completely right about your setup, Dramonic.

[mykonian]

I WANT IT.

Do you want a theory debate?

[mykonian]

I seriously question the need for a game which gives VT's a reason to underperform. Even in normal games, it isn't unknown for townies to play in a way to avoid death. Not many VT's realize that drawing the NK might be one of their jobs. And in this game, you promote such play even more. I don't see the need for that.

[mykonian]

3 mafia against 6 town? No way.

You didn't actually take the time to read the setup, did you? <<

SMALL LETTERS.

the breaking strategy is to NL until the cop has 2 guilties, then start lynching. You end up with a 1-6 nightless.

and the watcher won't give conclusive information. A rolecop might be better, but still isn't a beautiful solution. (forcing the town to lynch as soon as he has found the cop, as he can direct the RB)

[mykonian]

myko, there is no watcher mentioned in either Hoopla's setup nor dram's. Please stop being an avocado long enough to help me understand your last sentence.

I'm not an avocado.

Mafia watcher. In dramonics setup.

To counter the NL-get cop investigations strategy, the mafia has to accurately block the cop. Otherwise, 2 mafia will be known to the town (and mafia can't kill during that time). A mafia watcher doesn't tell the mafia who the cop is, so it won't help.

The setup could be patched by using a role cop in stead of a watcher, but still, the setup wouldn't work too well. (as in the start, town dominates the night with the cop)

[mykonian]

An idea I came up with earlier.
I think it's balanced and non-breakable, but you be the judge of that...

Town

Townie x 4
Sane Cop
Doctor

Mafia

Mafia Roleblocker

Mafia Watcher or Tracker

Mafia Pacifist Godfather (investigate as town, mafia cannot kill while he is alive)

Opinions?

That one.

I think this setup doesn't do what it was intended to do.

[mykonian]

@dramonic: I really don't know. I don't think patching up that setup will help it too much.

@yellowbounder.

7 town, 4 antitown. With the arsonist shooting because it is his only chance, after a mislynch the game is in "lylo". I don't think this game is a lot of fun for the townies because of that.

[mykonian]

But then, you have to ask: do you like the mechanic (will scum actually have a choice between blocking a doctor or the arsonist)? Is the swingyness of the setup worth it?

about the swingyness: a lot depends on when the arsonist gets lynched. In your first setup, if the arsonist lives for 2 nights, town faces lylo day 2 (next night arsonist kills again and the day 3 lynch of the arsonist ensures a scum win). If he was lynched day 1, you would have a 3-5 nightless (that's quite fair).

In your second setup, the arsonist living for 3 nights gives lylo day 3. (quite fair)
if the arsonist gets lynched day 1: 3-7 nightless (scum has to mislynch 5! townies), which is very hard on scum.

/avocado

[mykonian]

this assumes the arsonist only ever kills town, but he could just as easily hit scum, right?

almost. A antitown group will usually start with shooting protown players to keep enough targets to mislynch. Town should be more often protown, which means that antitown groups have a tendency to shoot town more often.

I didn't post the actual best scenario for town, where they lynch scum and the arsonist only kills scum, ending the game d3 (which is totally not shocking and wasn't posted for that reason )

[mykonian]

Proposal
Good Cop, Bad Cop

Scum A
2 Goons
1 RB

Scum B
2 Goons
1 RB

Town
6 VT
1 Cop (returns town or anti-town, auto-roleblocked if tries to investigate bad cop)
1 RB
1 Watcher
1 1-Shot Vig (does not lose shot if RBed)

3rd Party
1 Bad Cop (Gets one investigation per night (returns town or anti-town), wins if either scum team eliminates the town, his survival is irrelevant to all win conditions, including his own) - 1-shot NK immunity

7 antitown-10 protown. After a mislynch d1, and both scum shooting a townie, town becomes a playball of the scum. You face a semi-lylo d1 and this setup is only reasonable with quite an amount of crosskills. Basically the same problem as with the first setup of yellowbound: it isn't fun for town to play in, as from d2 town can't influence if they win or not.

[mykonian]

How many VTs are needed to balance the rest of the setup as is?

mmm. 8? something like that. That would give town 3 mislynches, ending in a sort of lylo on day 4. They would have to lynch accurately in 2/3's of the cases.

if you wanted a mislynch more, which isn't unreasonable: 11.

However, we are talking about 25 and 28 player setups, just to accomodate for the 2 3-player scumteams, with the added survivorcop. Such large setups aren't very popular, and most likely will be terrible to run. The better solution would in my opinion be to have a 14 player setup with 2 2-player scumteams and the roles the same. The investigative power of town might be a little problem then (the watcher will certainly get a guilty claim the night after the cop has claimed, which is more destructive as the scumteams get smaller) but that is a minor problem.

[mykonian]

Framed Drunk Open:
10 players

Mafia

-1 Janitor
-1 Driver
-1 Framer

Town

-1 Drunk
-1 Cop
-1 Watcher
-4 Vanilla Townies

Comments Plox

EPIC MAFIA.

But seriously, I don't know. I think it is rather powerrole invested, and town is too weak to face the really powerheavy (and numerous!) scum. 3-7 means that in 1 day, you've reached lylo.

(gandalf, a drunk is a RB, iirc)

[mykonian]

@flinter. Seems to be a decent setup. I don't see a lot going wrong with that. Town might be a bit on the weak side, though. It seems newby games with only a cop are mostly lost. Since the tracker can't get innocent reports, and can only get a guilty on one of the scum, it is less strong then "half" a cop.

Sorry mallow, but you would need a lot more. At least 3 more, and then I'm still wondering if it is really balanced.

Mallow, lets assume a normal mini. It usually has 12 players now, of which 3 are scum. We see that these setups are very often won by scum.

So, a balanced setup with 3 scum and 9 (2 more then your initial setup), would need some clear town power, and a rather weak scum. Your game has a strong scumteam (all have a power, and all are quite strong), and town is only compensated with 2 strong powerroles. So, with these roles you are looking at a 13 or a 15 player setup.

@shotty: You could have thought that one through better. Massclaim leaves at most 14 players which can still be scum (just see which mason group is claimed double). This means that at the start of the game, you have already 5 players confirmed. This combined with a shared cop and a vig means that on day 3 already people can have figured out who all the scum must be (since there are no other possibilities anymore)

[mykonian]

five Cops ran into a bar...

1 Sane Cop
1 Insane Cop
1 Naive Cop
1 Paranoid Cop
1 Retired Cop (Shoots any player that visits him, cannot be night-killed)
4 Vanilla Townies

1 Stalker
1 Roleblocker
1 Traitor (Doesn't know who mafia are, mafia don't know who he is)

Cop sanities are not revealed upon death, the mod will simply state that they were a cop.

Roleblocker doesn't block Retired cop and dies if they try to role block him.

translation for MS: a retired cop is a PGO, a stalker is a Rolecop. It might actually be about balanced, but it has too many pr's to be normal.

[mykonian]

So it's a 9-3 with the potential for a Night 3 loss at the earliest? Sounds pretty balanced to me.

?

town lynches scum day 1, scum kills the PGO night 1, day 2 the last lynch.

Or, town mislynches, scum kills, all cops investigate the PGO, game over. (N1)

[mykonian]

and you have too many powerroles to justify a town watcher. If the odd night cop claims a guilty, the watcher will wait till scum kills the cop, and you have your second guilty. That means, if either the tracker or the cop get a guilty on the mafia, the mafia has probably lost. The 3rd party is fine. The town is just a too strong with all the investigative roles.

[mykonian]

Am I the only one who's thinking that the cop is near useless here?

which means it might actually be a good setup.

Finding out who the scum are is fun. Cops are not fun. They might be a necessity sometimes, but they aren't fun.

[mykonian]

Desert Island Mafia

Shirley Temple - Innocent Child (cannot be mafia or miller)
Sherlock Holmes - Cop
Columbo - Cop
Jack Sparrow - Roleblocker
Marilyn Monroe - Roleblocker
Conspiracy Nut - Miller, all who target him become miller's as well (retain's abilities)
George Carlin - Miller, if targeted by someone who is a miller, shows as innocent
Theodore Roosevelt - Bulletproof
Dio - Bulletproof

Roles will be assigned at random, then alignments will be assigned (2 mafia, 1 Sk, 6 town).

2-1-6 > 2-1-3 = means that you are practically in mylo already. I think the setup might be too small to have 2 mafia and a SK.

[mykonian]

Empking's No Lynching Town

2 Mafia
5 VTs

If town would lynch a VT they No Lynch instead

Please check my maths.

Mafia wins if:

3 consecutive mislynches: 5/7 * 4/6 * 3/5 = 2/7
first a correct lynch and then 3 mislynches: 2/7 * 4/5 * 3/4 * 2/3 = 4/35
mislynch, correct, 2 mislynches: 5/7 * 2/6 * 3/4 * 2/3 = 5/42
2 mislynches, correct, mislynch: 5/7 * 4/6 * 2/5 * 2/3 = 8/105

I thought these were all the paths for a mafia victory, which adds to (60+24+16+25)/210 = 125/210 which is about 60%

That is pretty neat if we assume town can scumhunt better then random.

[mykonian]

Nominate: At least one of the retalitory mountainious games

- I have to say that I find the 64.6% chance the best.

My first

second

. I'm quite in love with the setup.

[mykonian]

Mykonians 7p setups.

1 mafia lightning rod
1 mafia goon
5 vanilla townies.

EV=65% for scum

By adding one claimable role:

1 mafia lightning rod
1 mafia goon
1 gunless vig
4 vanilla townies

the EV = 55% for town.


2 mafia goons (killing via poison mechanic, target dies next night)
1 compulsive one shot vig.
4 townies.

EV is about 74% for scum. However, town gets three shots before scum gets their kill and only one scum shot isn’t forced. There is a chance of over 70% that this goes to a 3p lylo.

I ran the last game, and a variantion on the first two, which both proved to be fun. I think that they aren’t much worse as open, and especially the third one was more suited for an open game then a closed one.

[mykonian]

I don't really know if I want to. The game when played (closed) was a very clear town victory. Scum has almost no way to kill very towny players.

And then, I don't know if I can. Just the addition of a claimable role shifts balance a lot in a small open, and in case of the third game, makes all scums kills possible in the game forced. (They have to kill the two confirmed townies). I don't really feel like calculating it now, but knowing that 70% of the cases you would get to a 3p lylo, and assuming that nobody claims day one, you would already have a shift in EV of (0.7 * 2/3 - 0.7 * 1/2) 11%. This is only considering the changes of odds in lylo, but earlier it will also have changed the odds already. Scum's chances of winning in a random game would already be below 50%, I think, and if you add to this that they can't even choose who they shoot, the game seems to be very town sided.

But yeah, you are right, 74% randomly doesn't sound good.

[mykonian]

Reverse Mafia

1 Tracker - sees who a nominated person visits
1 Vigilante - unlimited night kills
1 Recruiting Mason - can choose a person each night to become a (Town aligned) mason and talk in a QT (doesn't happen until the following night though); if they try to recruit a mafioso, ALL masons die
1 Jester - wins if lynched, wins with the town
5 Traitors - win with the mafia, do not participate in mafia meetings at night
1 Mafia Role Cop - wins if he and the traitors are the only roles left alive, wins if he singlehandedly outnumbers the town (ie he is one of two people left), if he is killed the game ends in a town win

No, for a few reasons. A. this game might be fun, but it is mostly fun in a environment where you already expect a lot of pr's. Chat games/Real life. Not on a forum. B. This means this game goes to unwinnable fast or is swingy. C. This particular setup relies heavily on a whisper function, as the Role cop needs communication to survive.

So please, don't copy a setup straight from EpicMafia. Their games can sometimes be boring from a certain moment or very swingy. People invested only 10 minutes in them anyway, so who cares. Here people do, because they are playing it for weeks.

[mykonian]

Synergy Mafia

Mafia

(3)

2x Mafia Goons
1x Mafia Godfather/Bulletproof/2-Shot Roleblocker/Role Cop

Town

(10)

1x

Cop

/Vigilante
1x Innocent Child/

Tracker

1x

Bodyguard

/Jailkeeper
7x Townies

~~

- Daystart
- Pregame, the Cop/Vig, IC/Tracker, BG/JK, GF/BP/RB/RC have to choose which role they'd like to be.
- Innocent Child (if selected) is announced at the start of D1 by the mod.
- GF has investigation immunity only to the cop.

Did town have a choice? Well, if they don't know that the cop is apparently less succesful then the vig, but that's all. Scum will have to pick Role cop just to avoid being killed by your dreaded combination.

It's really a shame hoopla, but choices don't really work. There is simply too much difference between the several roles.

[mykonian]

is it worth it? Is it going to be played that often that you'll get your meta-setup-tells?

Is it going to be a better game then the ones already played?

[mykonian]

is it worth it? Is it going to be played that often that you'll get your meta-setup-tells?

Is it going to be a better game then the ones already played?

- Perhaps not. It's more just an assurance it will stay workable if ran multiple times, as it self balances (with the right roles).

- I think we're lacking quality 3-scum Open games, so it has a market. Plus getting the choice pregame to be something you want is fun.

Ok. (self balancing is a tad optimistic though). It feels slightly on the town's side, esspecially as they are the one's that have the initiative and as in any open there is little to no room for fakeclaims. But if you want a 13 player game in, this one is certainly decent.

[mykonian]

Don't the town essentially control the nightkill, though? One townie will claim doctor on day one. MAfia don't know if its real or not, but can't take the chance it isn't because if it is the real doc they can't kill anyone else. Next day, same thing. If the doctor doesn't die in the night, you know the person claiming was mafia, lynch away!

I guess the mafia could try and shoot elsewhere, but they would have to balance this out with the possibility the actual doctor did claim, and they would be wasting a night.

This "breaking stragegy leans on two things which are doubtful

Mafia has to act in a particular way to make it work (shoot the claimant)
This breaking strategy only works as long as the real doc doesn't claim.

And these work against each other. Town can 100% break the first day, and then lose their doc n2. Which is minimal return for a Pr (and only unique role). So yeah, I wouldn't worry about this.

[mykonian]

I feel like you've poured water into three glasses, realised that one glass has too much water in it and poured more water into the other two, then realised one of

them

now has too much water and poured more water into the other two instead -- and now the glasses are completely full.

i.e. I think it could be simplified.

1 fool (can select investigation immunity or 1-shot BP/lynch immunity) (wincon: wins when lynched if its lynch means the mafia gains a majority/equals the town)
1 mafia rolecop
1 mafia goon
2 of (cop, doc, JK, tracker)
9 VTs

or something like that anyway I have no idea how balanced that would be

Just compare it to a setup you do know: 2 goons, 1 rolecop, 2 town powerrole, 9VT's. That probably could be run without trouble. And now you change the goon for a fool, who doesn't know who the mafia is, and who can only win at the day after lylo/mylo. I'm pretty sure this is town-sided.

[mykonian]

Maybe scrap it altogether. Janitors suck. I don't know what I was thinking.

We didn't know what you were thinking either.

[mykonian]

3 VTs
2 of the following (random):
Cop
Doctor
Watcher
1 mafia goon
1 mafia roleblocker (negates cop, doctor, or watcher)
Day start

7p's can do with heavy town power. They don't work really well with scum power, simply because 7p mountainous is so incredibily scumsided. Just do the calculations for yourself. Where the old newby game didn't even get a 50% winrate with a cop a doc and a mafia RB, you do expect this to work in a 7p (the old newby game was 9p). I don't think this is such a good idea.

Town's power lies in the mislynch and the fact that scum cannot find power roles outside of claims.

Town generally gets more then one mislynch. Here they don't. scum chance of winning randomly is: 5/7*3/5+5/7*2/5*2/3+2/7*4/5*2/3 = 81/105 or 77%. You need quite a bit of power to pull into somewhat reasonable shape, and because you have only a few nights to do that, you can't really afford to weaken them. The mafia doesn't need a counter, there is no time, nor room for a follow the cop strategy, and the nightkill generally works as a pretty good counter anyway.

[mykonian]

I like the idea, Hoopla. It's a funny setup.