A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[SirCakez]

First
VOTE: The Wrong Lynch
The wrong lynch, but the right RVS wagon!

[SirCakez]

Cakez how long did you have that quip queued up?

A while, I'll admit it :p

[SirCakez]

My wagon is better

[SirCakez]

Hi everyone! Are we all ready to sing?

VOTE: Sir Cakez

Hi Cakez, how ya doing?

Hi Skybird. I'm pretty happy right now

[SirCakez]

That was pretty great BTW Axelrod

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors
I have been sold, and Hiplop is really hard for me to sort.
Wrong Lynch had a good entrance.

[SirCakez]

It felt very relaxed and ready to engage with the game. As you did with that post ^

[SirCakez]

Axel why the desire to wagon hydras specifically?

[SirCakez]

@hydra hate - I like playing with hydras personally, I didn't know there was a big hate from them actually. That's why this "lynch hydras" thing has me confused.

[SirCakez]

Snarky do you agree with Beeboy's reasons for Seniors being scum?

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

Why not vote anyone in your entrance then immediately sheep Beeboy onto Seniors?

[SirCakez]

Don't like Beeboy's flipflop on Sakura. Felt like there was no dedication or serious belief in it with how fast he got on and off.
Seniors's Snarky vote is bad as well. Not enough to justify it and Snarky is definitely not someone you get a serious scumread on from one post.

[SirCakez]

112, 116, 120
Within 8 posts, you voted Sakura, called for more votes on her, then unvoted and went back to Seniors. It's super waffly.

[SirCakez]

Sakera didn't say anything about skimming in between 112 and 120....

[SirCakez]

Look at point 1

That came before you voted Sakura in the first place. Looks like backtracking now.

[SirCakez]

Snarky is lynchbait so Beeboy's argument about Seniors pushing Snarky being a scum move does hold weight. Thus why I am still voting them.

[SirCakez]

Tictac what's your read on Seniors?

[SirCakez]

Tictac if your read on them is null I don't understand this defense of them at all. Seniors has done stuff, nothing useful though and the Snarky vote was pretty bad.

[SirCakez]

Tictac what part of my read on seniors is fake and scummy?

The part where you have a strong read on a slot that hasn't done anything.
How is this difficult to get?

Tictac you're just completely disregarding that Seniors has done things to get reads from and going, "he's null, Beeboy's push is bad!!!"
Which isn't true.

[SirCakez]

The only compelling thing in there is their "serious" vote for someone they should know is lynchbait based off one post

Is that not enough for a read?
@EP - fluid enough to vote someone, call for a wagon then unvotw in literally 8 posts?
Ogre is a scumbutt though, approve of that vote at least.

[SirCakez]

That's stupid sorry

PEdit: It's fine for an initial read but I'm not buying that people are being convinced by beeboy's other points and I don't really like some people's behavior around the wagon (i.e Pied Piper)

Who's listening to his other points even?

[SirCakez]

I'm pretty sure I'm the only other one on the wagon lmao

[SirCakez]

Be back later

[SirCakez]

Oh the other Seniors voters are Snarky and Ogre. Neither of whom have said anything about their vote on Seniors sooooo
@Sakura, as long as you don't flipflop that ridiculously quickly we should be good.

[SirCakez]

ATM scum reads of varying degrees on Tictac, Seniors, Ogre, and Beeboy.

[SirCakez]

Beeboy what are your non-Seniors scum reads? You are tunneling :/

[SirCakez]

Yeah Seniors' vote on me is awful lmao
I haven't fencesat anywhere. "Scumreading anyone making an impact" is wtf and false.
Beeboy scum read is from his ubertunnel on Seniors and the aforementioned waffle on Sakura.
Seniors scum read is from the Snarky vote, little scumhunting and now this terrible misrep.

[SirCakez]

{The Pied Piper, Mirhawk, Spiffeh}
{THE WRONG LYNCH, davesaz}
{SnarkySnowman, dramonic, podobo, pistachi0n, True Ogre, millar13, Amihan}
{SirCakez, Axelrod, Sakura Hana, Swordsworth}
{Friendless Seniors, tictac}

This is where I am at right now.

What happened to Sakura being town?

[SirCakez]

So fence sitting or what?
And you do, but 90% of your posts are Seniors, Seniors, Seniors.

[SirCakez]

@cakes
What do you mean fence sitting? Fence sitting is when I don't take a stance on a popular wagon with lots of info. Sakura isnt a popular wagon nor is there any solid alignment indicative posts from her yet.

Yes a lot of my posts are about Seniors but that is a fallacy because of my post count
.

Since when is that fence sitting?
You're waffling everywhere on Sakura.

[SirCakez]

@cakes
What do you mean fence sitting? Fence sitting is when I don't take a stance on a popular wagon with lots of info. Sakura isnt a popular wagon nor is there any solid alignment indicative posts from her yet.

Yes a lot of my posts are about Seniors but that is a fallacy because of my post count
.

Since when is that the definition of fence sitting? It doesn't have to be a popular wagon to fence sit on it.
You're waffling everywhere on Sakura.

EBWOP for clarification

[SirCakez]

Since when is that fence sitting?
You're waffling everywhere on Sakura.

Fence sitting isn't having trouble reading someone sorry.

If you're having trouble getting a read in them then why vote her so confidently earlier and slot her on the reads list?

[SirCakez]

Because that is flip flipping and you're arguing it's not

[SirCakez]

Beeboy how do you have 100 posts good god

[SirCakez]

No I said it was flip flopping but it isn't alignment indicative to have your reads change more than once in incredibly early stages of the game.

Yeah, but it is when it's ridiculously fast and unjustified.

[SirCakez]

being tunneled on by two of the most stubborn players =/= fun

You are appealing to cakes here.

What?
Also Axel is prob town

[SirCakez]

Ayyy Pistach made himself easy to sort
Or at least, Rob made Pistach easy to sort

[SirCakez]

Ayyy Pistach made herself easy to sort
Or at least, Rob made Pistach easy to sort

Fixed, sorry 'bout that

[SirCakez]

I've never seen scum claim miller, wtf

[SirCakez]

Oh I have you're right derp
But she did wait to claim miller until like day 4 which is super shifty in itself
I don't think I've seen scum claim miller day 1 before

[SirCakez]

Ami is that a CC?

[SirCakez]

This is what happens when I believe things qq
VOTE: Pistach

[SirCakez]

Sakura what do you think about Tictac and Spiffeh?

[SirCakez]

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Dude I thought you were town then you made this post wtf

[SirCakez]

Yooooooo

VOTE: beeboy

I'm a miller.

Tip: if you want to fakeclaim Miller as scum, you should probably wait until everyone else has posted so you can be sure nobody else is an actual Town Miller.

VOTE: pistachion

You are voting Pistach....

[SirCakez]

^
What the hell?

[SirCakez]

But this Mirhawk push sucks

No its good Mirhawk's posts just went to shit shush

[SirCakez]

349 is a giant fencesit, and now you're questioning if Ami claimed Miller or not when its obvious she did.

[SirCakez]

Beeboy are you even reading the thread?

[SirCakez]

My initial post was actually cross-posted by beeboy. I wanted to see where he was going with the Sakura thing, but in the meantime he decided to back off and go back to Seniors. Seemed consistent to me and since Seniors were my stongest scumlean at the time a vote on them (and a sheep of beeboy) didn't pose a problem, and still doesn't.

You said in your entrance you didn't think anyone warranted a vote thohh.

[SirCakez]

Yes you said that as well. My issue with is Beeboy made one post and you just voted Seniors instantly, despite expressing reservations in your previous post.

[SirCakez]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

That's not what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to how you said "I'm withholding my vote for now" then immediately voted in your next post.

[SirCakez]

Correct via the game state? Wtf
These reads could easily be scum together. I was scum with Beeboy in Borderlands, we scumread each other the entire game. He's definitely one to distance.

[SirCakez]

Obviously I do

[SirCakez]

Yeah Wrong Lynch is super town Beeboy you should un-revoke that.
What do you think about Mirhawk saying Ami didn't claim miller?

[SirCakez]

Spiffeh is PP your only scum read?

[SirCakez]

Well then who else is scum?

[SirCakez]

Maybe FS

Maybe pistachion because of Amihan's CC

Maybe Mirhawk because of their reaction to the CC

These are good
I'm not seeing PP!scum though :/

[SirCakez]

In what world does Ami CC that as scum wtf

[SirCakez]

In what world does Ami CC that as scum wtf

I thought the CC was null tbh.

Wtf CCs aren't null
Its either from town or scum, stop fence sitting

[SirCakez]

If Ami claims she wasn't actually CCing there I'd vote the hell out of her.

[SirCakez]

Oh god Swords you're scum aren't you?

[SirCakez]

Oops

[SirCakez]

Now I have too many scumreads though <.<
The four from earlier + Pistach, Mirhawk and Sword
Need to sort the earlier four better

[SirCakez]

Tictac, Seniors, Beeboy, Ogre

[SirCakez]

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

[SirCakez]

What about it?
Jester is bastard, so it couldn't be in this game as its non-bastard.
Dram said "that's three scum(reads presumably)" so I want to know who they are.

[SirCakez]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bastard_Mod
Basically a bastard game is one where the mod is basically trolling the players, and there's overtly crazy/unfair roles like cults, jesters, etc in the game. This game has been designated non-bastard, so none of that can be in this game.

Jester wins if it's lynched yeah.

[SirCakez]

Your answer is better anyway :p

[SirCakez]

Pist prob scum, but 2 millers isn't impossible. Jester also not impossible.

Oh it was Tictac here

[SirCakez]

Ami posted before I claimed Miller, didn't day anything about it until she CC'd me. Odd.

And why isn't she voting me? Because she knows I'll flip town, making her look suspicious?

This is bs lol
326 was Ami's first post where she declared V/La, then immediately after in 327 she CCed. There was no post before you claimed Miller.

[SirCakez]

AMI
I TRUSTED YOU

[SirCakez]

:/
VOTE: Mirhawk
Ami is right at least, those reactions did suck

[SirCakez]

Why not?

[SirCakez]

:/
VOTE: Mirhawk
Ami is right at least, those reactions did suck

I voted Mirhawk Rob.

[SirCakez]

@cakes
What do you mean fence sitting? Fence sitting is when I don't take a stance on a popular wagon with lots of info. Sakura isnt a popular wagon nor is there any solid alignment indicative posts from her yet.

Yes a lot of my posts are about Seniors but that is a fallacy because of my post count
.

Since when is that fence sitting?
You're waffling everywhere on Sakura.

Why is waffling a problem?

It's an out for scum changing reads to fit the game state better. And it shows no conviction in reads which is another scum sign.

[SirCakez]

sircakez - I would love to hear who your biggest scum read is and why without using the phrases fencesit or waffle. gogogoogogogogogogogogoogogoogogogoogogogogoogogogogoogoooo

Currently Mirhawk because his reactions to Ami's Miller CC was very questionable, felt like he knew it was fake, and then I really don't like his dave push.

[SirCakez]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

That's not what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to how you said "I'm withholding my vote for now" then immediately voted in your next post.

Why is this problematic?

And can people stop acting like shit is scummy that isn't, you're making my head explode.

It's backtracking. Why even say that in the first place if he was going to dump a vote two posts later?

[SirCakez]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

That's not what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to how you said "I'm withholding my vote for now" then immediately voted in your next post.

Why is this problematic?

And can people stop acting like shit is scummy that isn't, you're making my head explode.

It's backtracking. Why even say that in the first place if he was going to dump a vote two posts later?

You're positing his big scum plan was to say he wasn't putting a vote down and then 8 minutes later coming back to the thread and voting?

How is that even backtracking? Why does that make him scum?

No I'm saying it looks like trying to blend in after realizing his initial "not voting" thing sucked. And that I'd backtracking.
I've completed like 10 or so games onsite now? That's just a guess from memory. I've also played like 20 off site.

[SirCakez]

Cakez, can you clarify for me your read on Sakura and beeboy? I know that you think beeboy waffled, and I agree with you, but where does that leave you on reading their alignments?

Sakura has been solidly town for me pretty much the whole game.
Beeboy is a slight scum read for me, he's improving past his initial waffle/Seniors tunnel.

[SirCakez]

My reservations were to do with his push on Sakura who I was not reading as scum. I did not expect him to back off so quickly but when he did I was more inclined to read him as town, as scum-beeboy had no reason to back off unless he was town and open to changing reads. Thus the sheep. Along with my own read on Seniors anyway.

That's not what I'm referring to.
I'm referring to how you said "I'm withholding my vote for now" then immediately voted in your next post.

Why is this problematic?

And can people stop acting like shit is scummy that isn't, you're making my head explode.

It's backtracking. Why even say that in the first place if he was going to dump a vote two posts later?

You're positing his big scum plan was to say he wasn't putting a vote down and then 8 minutes later coming back to the thread and voting?

How is that even backtracking? Why does that make him scum?

No I'm saying it looks like trying to blend in after realizing his initial "not voting" thing sucked. And that I'd backtracking.
I've completed like 10 or so games onsite now? That's just a guess from memory. I've also played like 20 off site.

You think he, as scum, purposefully said he wasn't voting, didn't realize it at the time, posted then a few minutes later went shit I should blend in? You actually think that's a thought process someone has? I still don't get why it's backtracking. Why is no voting shitty in the first place and why can't he have simply changed his mind?

You have more than five games to your repertoire and you're actually trying to argue the waffling is a scum tell thing?

No he obviously did realize it, and then decided it looked bad and backtracked on it two posts later. Yeah that's a thought process people have, I've done it before as scum.
No voting there sucks because there was definitely enough to make scumreads from at that point. He didn't say anything about changing his mind until prodded pages later, he just naked voted.
Yeah I am

[SirCakez]

Yo so I think Podo is town because his posts are actually good and Seniors is tunneling him for bad reasons.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: Swords

I am wheeling spiffy until I get more motivated.

Wtf is this
This is a good vote but wat happened to Seniors who you've been scumreading for so long?

[SirCakez]

Fair answer.

I think I'm just curious because I want to be townread by more people so I don't have to scumhunt as "aggressively" this time.

Not scumreading this. I just got out of a game with Ami where she had to play incredibly aggressively because she replaced into the craziest scummiest slot. She had to play hard because we had reason to scumread her.

If she wants to be able to lay back a little bit and relax more through this game, that totally makes sense to me.

^ can attest to this, was also in that game. I'm thinking Ami is town here, that cc gambit was pretty town.

[SirCakez]

Yo so I think Podo is town because his posts are actually good and Seniors is tunneling him for bad reasons.

What do you like about his posts specifically?

His posts feel open and nothing to hide, like 576 for example. And he's doing more scumhunting then half the playerlist which is a plus.

[SirCakez]

I haven't re-read yet, that is still coming, but I had this thought. What about a "Musical" claim. i.e.: just what Musical you are from, and nothing else?

Thoughts?

SUBTLE

Wow, you're just completely useless, aren't you.

This made me lol
I'd be scumreading dramonic for doing nothing to scumhunt but he was like this in the other game I played with him as town soooo he can have a pass for now.

[SirCakez]

I like how I stopped posting and Seniors is using me as excuse to idle still. Obv scuming 101

Your vote on Swords still seems like "meh, I'm bored, let's try something else"

What do you think of Swords actually?

Your assumption is correct; I am here to pick up Plotinus's song where theirs left off.

And then, when they return, our individual melodies will merge into a beautiful song that will crack this game open like an egg flung from a skyscraper onto concrete.

This is why I love Nacho

[SirCakez]

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

[SirCakez]

No he obviously did realize it, and then decided it looked bad and backtracked on it two posts later. Yeah that's a thought process people have, I've done it before as scum.
No voting there sucks because there was definitely enough to make scumreads from at that point. He didn't say anything about changing his mind until prodded pages later, he just naked voted.
Yeah I am

True Ogre said he was leaning that way and was holding his vote. bee boy then asked him to please vote seniors and he did. I don't see that as backtracking. Soemtimes people vote when people ask then to early game. He didn't change his mind pages later. bee boy asked him and he voted. You don't need to have reasons with the vote as they were in his earlier post.

Be prepared to scum read me then because I am the waffle queen.

Argh we're going in circles now
At least I haven't seen any waffling from you yet

[SirCakez]

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

You have an issue with us because we're agreeing on a read? What?

[SirCakez]

Cakes isn't that what I told you to get you to disengage from me

Wat

[SirCakez]

Heh, I can see how Nacho and Plot could be confused by their walls tbh.
Ogre is def improving in my reads though.
Ami why are I your top town read?

[SirCakez]

tictac and cakez I'm having an issue with as they both seem to be saying *exactly the same thing* with regard to their scumread on me, and I mistook one for the other.

You have an issue with us because we're agreeing on a read? What?

You both seem stuck on me saying I'd withold my vote, and then sheeping.
I've seen scum be adamant about stupid technicalities before. It provides a focus. You don't have to evolve if you latch on to an incosistency that isn't actually scummy.

I'm not stuck on that, it's that Tammy was questioning me over it incessantly. I already said my read on you is improving.

[SirCakez]

Sorry I've been a bit absent recently. Kinda haven't had much to add. Here's a tiny readslist.

TOWN

Amihan: Her gambit has been immensely useful for the town as a reaction test. If she's scum, she made a huge mistake.

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

beeboy: Too much loud nonsense to be scum. He drew

way

too much attention to himself.

Cakez: I think his perspective on things is very towny. He's open to contribute, engages in just about every conversaiton, and his opinions seem to align with mine for the most part.

SCUM

FriendlessSeniors: Not contributing in a meaningful way, and attacks Cakez for what is clearly bs.

dramonic: The only way dramonic seems to know how to contribute is by flinging shit at people then ducking away and seeing what stuck. He's scumreading people, but refuses to provide any logic as to why. I've asked him why he's scumreading Axelrod, but no response.

Mirhawk: Hate hate hate the response to Amihan's gambit.

Swordsworth: Hate his response about as much, but he has contributed less, so I'm willing to back away from him now on the expectation that there is more to come.


Assume everyone else is null at this point.

This is how I would probably read Dramonic if I didn't know how he played tbh. Good otherwise.

[SirCakez]

okay one more thing
i totally exaggerated when i said cakez 690 was worst post in the game
basically that tunneling accusation and the podo read was really lazy that's all

-EP and that's the last you'll be hearing from me for now

I went into it when Pied Piper asked about it, if you wanted more reasoning on it.

[SirCakez]

Cerberus v666 replaces millar13. Vote count and an update to the first post coming in 4ish hours when I get to my hotel.

Omg hi Cerb!

[SirCakez]

Currently Mirhawk because his reactions to Ami's Miller CC was very questionable, felt like he knew it was fake, and then I really don't like his dave push.

It WAS fake.

How would scum be any more or less likely to know this then town?

Literally the only way for any reasoning following this line of thought to work is for Ami to also be scum.

You're on the scum team, Pistach isn't, someone CCs a Miller claim that third-party doesn't make. Boom you know it's fake.

[SirCakez]

How on earth would I know its fake?

What does a third party have to do with it?

How does this in any way invalidate my earlier statement?

I just said!

Third party wouldn't CC miller randomly.

What earlier statement?

[SirCakez]

K all caught up and I even read ALL of the long posts!!!

Town: {Amihan, Sakura Hana, Tammy, The Pied Piper, davesaz, podoboq, TWL}
Townlean: {beeboy, True Ogre, pistachi0n, SirCakez}
Null: {tictac, Friendless Seniors, dramonic, millar/Cerb}
Scumlean: {Mirhawk, Axelrod}
Scum: {Skybird, Swordsworth}

I think that's everyone

I plan on elaborating on this and answering any questions later but I have to go rn

VOTE: Skybird

When did Seniors move to null whoa

[SirCakez]

^ this, thanks Cerb.

[SirCakez]

I'm still down for a Swords lynch
Spiffeh what happened to your Seniors read?

[SirCakez]

Why is Swords a bad lynch?

[SirCakez]

I think by "clarify", podo meant "give reasons for thinking the way you are thinking".
How is Beeboy improving? His play looks almost identical to the early game play that you disliked unless you're seeing some interesting evolution that I'm not.

I mean, his tunnel died off mostly and I haven't seen any more waffling so it was an improvement to me.
Skybird where did we play together before where you scumread me and I wasn't scum O.o

[SirCakez]

Her early posts and interactions with Beeboy felt natural, liked her Tictac case

[SirCakez]

The most active player is always going to get a favorable nod, and I liked his early enthusiasm.

Yuck

Wait wtf I missed this
This is a terrible town tell from Axel

[SirCakez]

Skybird where did we play together before where you scumread me and I wasn't scum O.o

I just went looking for the game and I'm not seeing it. I'm not confusing you with someone else am I? I seem to be doing a lot of that lately.

Only game I remember playing with you that's not ongoing before was Molla's Grand Idea Mafia and I was scum that game so that's not it :p

[SirCakez]

When did Seniors move to null whoa

The only scummy thing they did was calling the Snarky vote a push and somehow getting a read off of him from his naked vote

EP has looked pretty town and hiplop's frustration seems genuine

I keep going back and forth on them and I'm actually leaning towards them being town if I had to guess

Urgh there's so much more then that though.

[SirCakez]

Picked up on something else that bothered me that I forgot to mention last night: when did Amihan and TWL end up in your scum pool and why? There's not really anything in your posts about why you were scum reading either of them.

Ami's only in the pool because I'm paranoid about the miller gambit. I actually find her play kind of town.

The Wrong Lynch has been in my pool for a long time, I've just don't talk about it. I found some of their early - mid stuff poorly justified or opportunistic or something like that. Nothing they've said since has made me consider moving them out of it though. Their posts don't feel like they're trying to find anything, more like they're trying to look involved.

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

[SirCakez]

Snarky is fucking unreadable ugh, it irritates me so much but I don't want to touch him out of fear he's just playing yet another sucky town game. 10/10 vig target though.
Need to review Skybird's posts, will do tomorrow since tired af.

[SirCakez]

No these Dram votes suck stop.

[SirCakez]

Like I tried to mislynch Dram for playing like this as scum so <.<

[SirCakez]

Because he always plays like this regardless of role p sure and its not a good reason to wagon him for.

[SirCakez]

What no I like you fine :p

[SirCakez]

You're basically suggesting a PL.

[SirCakez]

The most active player is always going to get a favorable nod, and I liked his early enthusiasm.

Yuck

Wait wtf I missed this
This is a terrible town tell from Axel

To clarify, are you saying Axel is using a terrible reason to townread?
Do you think he's scum for it?

Yes
That's partially why. His recent Dram push sucks too.

[SirCakez]

Can cakes explain to me the problem with dram votes.

I already did

[SirCakez]

Swords replace out is lol. Feels scum to me.

[SirCakez]

WAIT this means Cheet can join omg
But he'll be in a scum slot

[SirCakez]

Cakes what makes the replace out scummy?

His one post with content was super scummy and now he's just ditching?

[SirCakez]

Because he always plays like this regardless of role p sure and its not a good reason to wagon him for.

What is a good reason?

Actually scummy things from him, like not his usual play with the not explaining, loling, etc.

[SirCakez]

That's partially why. His recent Dram push sucks too.

What is awful about his dram push?

I think it is pretty plausible for anyone unfamiliar with dram to be scum reading him.

That could explain the initial push. But I explained how Dram always plays like this and he's still pushing it.

[SirCakez]

I haven't found any scum hunting from the Cakes slot that I actually like.
Discuss.

Gross
My scum hunting is on point here

[SirCakez]

Where i'm currently at is that Snarky's ISO is devoid of anything other than saying Seniors is scum (much like dram's but dram's has 3 scumreads), One of his posts was a pdodge due to Easter (If he doesn't have time due to easter has he even been reading the thread?) It is possible the lack of content is due to Easter as i recently learned that Easter's supposed to be a 4-day weekend? But many ppl have been active here despite that, so I'm unsure if the lack of activity is due to lack of time (and ergo no time to read either) or because of being scum active lurking.

Third option: he's just a habitual lurker and lynchbait

[SirCakez]

Cakes scum hunting literally consists of him saying people are playing objectively poorly not scummy.
He hasn't done any solid scum hunting yet and he is trying to give off the impression he is actively doing so.

Where did I say that wtf

[SirCakez]

Cakes what makes the replace out scummy?

His one post with content was super scummy and now he's just ditching?

How is leaving in that particular way scummy?
Is it more likely to scum to replace out while under pressure?

Yeah, especially knowing Swords. I play with him off site and he collapses under pressure.

[SirCakez]

I talked so much about your waffling to Tammy, go read that.

[SirCakez]

@cakes
What do you mean fence sitting? Fence sitting is when I don't take a stance on a popular wagon with lots of info. Sakura isnt a popular wagon nor is there any solid alignment indicative posts from her yet.

Yes a lot of my posts are about Seniors but that is a fallacy because of my post count
.

Since when is that fence sitting?
You're waffling everywhere on Sakura.

Why is waffling a problem?

It's an out for scum changing reads to fit the game state better. And it shows no conviction in reads which is another scum sign.

Ok in my defense this "discussion" on waffling is 1 post so I was never really wining.

How was I changing my read to fit the state of the game better when Sakura was mass town read and the push to begin with would go against this statement?
I have lots of conviction to my reads that directly contradicts the tunneling argument that you are making against me.

because you were pushing Sakura then suddenly stopped it. Like this should be obvious.

[SirCakez]

If anything tho i'm more concerned about SirCakez totally ignoring my switch from Mirhawk who i was strongly pushing earlier towards him whom i barely commented on.

You actually looked in my ISO apparently, so it's more justified then Beeboy's rando switch earlier.

[SirCakez]

what game?

Open 623
That game sucked >.<

[SirCakez]

What solid discussion? You voted and unvoted within 8 posts.

[SirCakez]

Look at 116 then 120

[SirCakez]

Both

[SirCakez]

I'm pretty sure you're like....the only person scumreading The Wrong Lynch so you're gonna need to explain this more.

Like I said, they're around a lot but don't really seem to be looking for scum. More like they're trying to look involved. Mala more so then GM. They don't appear to have any other scumreads than me and (maybe?) FS. I'm not even sure if they actually think FS is scum or if they're saying he's scum if I flip scum.

There's a bunch of stuff in individual posts that I don't like either, but it's mostly smaller stuff and is admittedly kind of omgusy.

Can you quote some examples of this? I'm not seeing it tbh.

[SirCakez]

You should read Dram's ISO in this game
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=64567
Also hi Ranger!

[SirCakez]

I'm not inclined to believe that replacing out is alignment indicative, though ironically enough in the last three games I've played there have been six scum replace outs.

This should be a sign for you that it is indicative. There were three scum replace outs in a Mini Theme I just finished and no town replace outs.

[SirCakez]

A vanity wagon is a onevote wagon that has little chance of growing, thus its for vanity.
Dram wagon isn't vanity since there are votes on it, although not good ones.

[SirCakez]

@Cakes
I get what you're saying, but if replacing out was a sure scumtell people would have figured that out a long time ago.

For me a vanity wagon doesn't have to be a one vote wagon. It's more if the person is ignoring a more viable wagon to be on one with low chances of going through.

Its not a sure scum tell, but this one just feels like one given Swords position in the game.
And that's my personal definition, I don't think there's a standard one.

[SirCakez]

Podo did you read the ISO I linked?
Snarky is a quality vig shot, no point wagoning him.

[SirCakez]

How many pages are you in Ranger? I think I know where you are given how Ogre just appeared at the bottom but I'm curious.

[SirCakez]

Oh nvm those numbers on the lists were the page numbers gg I'm dumb

[SirCakez]

Omg Ranger's reads are pretty fantastic.

[SirCakez]

WAIT this means Cheet can join omg

I'm sorry, I'm not Cheetory.
You'll have to live with someone who's probably not quite that good but is still at least decent.

No you're great too. I just remembered Cheet being on top of the replacements list :p

I actually really like Ogre's Axel case. Axel saying "Seniors is worthy of a vote is a joke" reeks of backtracking for example.

[SirCakez]

Swords was definitely new PP, I play with him off site.
Snarky is still unreadable, for the people debating that. Someone please Vig him tonight.

[SirCakez]

Snarky you're doing literally nothing. Make us not want to vig you.

[SirCakez]

Ranger literally never explains reads, that's not indicative.
I got all excited and thought Marquis was in the game somehow but it was just Ami again :p

[SirCakez]

Tictac why is Post your top lynch still?

[SirCakez]

Pist*

[SirCakez]

I think Ranger is town here tbh. Her play is reeking of her town game, I read Mafiaception and her play is nothing like it was there.

[SirCakez]

Ok ya Seniors is still scum. Mirhawk has just kind of vanished too.
Still standing by Ranger townread, her entrance/catchup felt super natural and open.
Why is everyone fighting with Tammy she's obvtown stop.

[SirCakez]

Town-ish. You're less active then usual but this game is also just fairly inactive so that might be why. Your posts have been okay but nothing that reeked town.

[SirCakez]

Oh no Cakez are you scum?!?!

You might be!!!

Beeboy how does that logic even work

[SirCakez]

Didn't you literally say earlier I avoid bussing? Yea scum theatre but I don't like actually pushing buddies to a lynch as scum.

[SirCakez]

High degree of activity with town play

[SirCakez]

^^^ this flurry of posts is town.
Cerb where's the ISO you said you would do on me :/

[SirCakez]

Huh. It felt like it had been a lot longer, never mind that then.

[SirCakez]

I thought I'd be his bread and butter for a scum read.

Wtf does that even mean

[SirCakez]

Podo did you read the ISO I linked?
Snarky is a quality vig shot, no point wagoning him.

Why have you been shooting things down this entire game without bringing much of anything better to the table?

Do you think wagoning Snarky will get anything done *roll*
You were in Machina, you know how he goes.

[SirCakez]

There are better things on the table already tho. Mirhawk, Seniors, Tictac, Axel are all good wagons. Still need to review Skybird when I stop being lazy (saturday mornings qq).

[SirCakez]

That's pretty accurate looking back at my ISO tbh. I have a pretty solid scum pool so I'm trying to sort out townreads.

[SirCakez]

Yeah I said I wanted him vigged pls

[SirCakez]

Why ask Mirhawk of all people?

[SirCakez]

<.<

[SirCakez]

Wtf why is Mirhawk townlean?

[SirCakez]

Because he's a scumbutt.

[SirCakez]

If you just want a case I can put one together but there's already been some solid ones I agree with.
Beeboy who is townreading Mirhawk? I see Spiffeh, Tammy, you presumably. Who else?

[SirCakez]

Seniors wagon composition isn't bad looking at it actually. Only vote that sucks there is Snarky's.

[SirCakez]

We have 4 days, we could move a new wagon.

[SirCakez]

Ya I could but others would have to push it as well.

[SirCakez]

VOTE: sircakez

oh cake - bread and butter scum read means that I expected that I'd be the exact type of person you'd scum read.

This still makes no sense
Like I don't think you're scummy? Why, should I be scumreading you?

[SirCakez]

Ya this counterwagon on me stinks. Both Seniors and Mirhawk got on, but both waited until two townish people, Spiffeh and Tammy, voted.

[SirCakez]

Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

That game actually had fluid game state. This game has been stuck on you and Seniors the entire game so ya I vote parked.

[SirCakez]

Cakes is scum because he isn't looking for scum, rather he's coasting and has been doing so for most of the game.

In the last game I played with him (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=65594) he actively scumhunted constantly, in this one he vote parked on me over a thousand posts ago and hasn't done much of anything since.

How much time does he spend pushing the scumread he's had all game? Almost none. He doesn't analyze any of my posts and the extent of him pushing my wagon consists of him occasionally reminding people that he thinks I'm scum.

Also his reaction to Rangers readslist was outrageously fake.

This is all so true

This is not town!Cakez

Can we please lynch him

When have I been town with you O.o

[SirCakez]

Cakez and Ranger in particular are way too complacent with the most popular wagons today being their top two scum reads and doing no further digging beyond that

That's how I roll. Flip any of the four I listed earlier and then we'll talk.
P-edit: shit you caught me

[SirCakez]

UNVOTE:

I think EP and Hiplop may just be lynch bait imo.

VOTE: Ranger

The fuck
After all that tunneling earlier are you serious

[SirCakez]

I went with the flow in GOT lol. Went right on the massive wagon and never left as soon as I replaced in.
Only other game we played together was Walking Dead Episode 3 p sure and I was scum there.

[SirCakez]

Huh I don't remember that but I'll take your word for it I guess.
And ya that didn't go so well q.q

Idk I need to reanalyze.

[SirCakez]

Easiest wagon is Seniors lol
I'm not even the first vote on your wagon. Why aren't you attacking TWL and PP for vote parking if that's your big concern?

[SirCakez]

That's what your post revolved around so I assumed it was your big concert.

[SirCakez]

Concern*
Autocorrect wtf

[SirCakez]

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

[SirCakez]

Did Cakez ever reply to this point?

I did not, missed that. That's a fair point.
Investigation on him is probably the best option with this big argument imo.

Unvote
Vote: Ranger

Look at the scum following the wagons everywhere. Seniors is doing the exact same thing.

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

Yes I use meta to avoid some lynchbait players like Dram and Snarky. Ranger genuinely feels town to me and I don't like these cases on her. Is meta a part of it? Yea but that's not the whole thing. And using meta isn't a scumtell regardless.

[SirCakez]

I think you're both scum but the Seniors wagon has some irky people (Snarky, tictac) on it while this one is pretty clean.

[SirCakez]

I asked earlier if you wanted a case, I can build one if you do.

[SirCakez]

Wtf is the progression from 1756 to 1759
brb for case

[SirCakez]

Because there has been a shitload of cases on Seniors in thread and building another one feels pointless but ok.

[SirCakez]

I'm already basically done with the Seniors case so I'll just post it anyway.

[SirCakez]

Seniors is scum because

-Initial Snarky vote in 96 was terrible. This has been hashed over a lot but basically both players should have known Snarky is lynchbait and that was a terrible vote.

-263 case on me was a boatload of misrep, went over this in 275

-Podo case stinks in 479. Nothing there is actually scum-indicative.

-Basically throws a temper tantrum and stops doing anything to scumhunt in 651. 665 is another bad vote follow up.

-845 is a dumptruck of useless questions because ??? Trying to look like they are doing something is what I think.

-855 makes no sense. "Hard skimming, makes sense for him to be town" lol what

-In 1256, calls Ranger town. 1465 Ranger is meh. 1467 says "why us over Ranger", basically calling Ranger a scumread. 1474 votes Ranger
This progression is balls

-1615 - waits for three other people to vote me before actually voting. Looks like scum making sure the wagon goes somewhere.

-1639 - back to "don't want to lynch Ranger". ???

-1654 - discredits their entire wagon, calls everyone on their wagon shitty/scummy. Terrible reaction.

-1704 - back to Ranger after "not wanting to lynch Ranger" earlier and only after the votes started moving back to Ranger. Scum following the wagons.

Wheee done
mirhawk next

[SirCakez]

Why Mirhawk is scum (went through his ISO to back up main points)

-The entire "dave is scum for calling someone out for pulling back on hydra discussion" push stunk. That was not indicative at all, I see town do things akin to that all the time.

-349 - the whole "fencesitting miller" thing. This has been hashed over a ton but yeah looks like scum who knew they were both town.

-852 - Makes a big deal out of "not liking" PP's post then says "not scumreading them for it". Wtf is that, why even bring it up then?

-865, 878 - what the hell are these?

-895 - this accusation sucks. "I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players."
That's not scummy at all.

-908 - "I DID know Ami was lying."
???
911 doesn't make it any better.

A lot of junk about the fencesitting

-969 - this still isn't a scumtell?

-1002 - Wrong Lynch is in your scum pool? Why haven't you pushed this at all? He hasn't even voted them.

-His Dav push basically completely dissolves because...? No explanation given.

-1335, 1341, 1342 - Initiates a push on Ranger, but no vote to back it up until way later in 1748. Looks like waiting for someone else to start the wagon so he can hop on.

-1612 - suddenly develops a scumread on me, his counterwagon, only after Spiffeh and Tammy start a wagon. In 1585, he says he only wants to vote me a bit? That progression is fake af.
1700 is fake, literally zero mention of ISOing or checking other games until justification requested.

-1748 - right to Ranger as soon as the wagon shifted to her. All his recent voted are just "follow someone else" and he's not actually starting any push without someone else going first.

Tl;dr
-Dave push early on stinks and was dropped randomly.
-Miller fencesit thing still sucks.
-Recent votes have just been following wherever other people go and he's not voting anyone until at least two other people go there first.

[SirCakez]

hey cakez, you realize town does not act super productive all the time, right? a lot of your case seems to be based on some weird concept that town is hard working, productive and collaborative while scum is lurky and mean.

I don't know if that's how you really feel or if you're scum, but even if I WERE scum, that isn't a good case. Things like the "skimming the thread in a way that I see coming from town", that's a common thing town does. Obviously not ideal, but scum skimming and town skimming are very different and the difference is usually quite apparent. both skim thread, scum are skimming for very different things than town are

First part: yeah I do

Explain this. How is the skimming different?

[SirCakez]

is this nacho or plot? I'm going to go back and look. I've forgotten what that was about, in all honesty.

@cakez, scum get lazy. I'm sure you've noticed a game where you're town and missed something, skimmed over some content, ya? It happens to everyone (except plot). People make mistakes, miss things etc. They are primarily looking for a fundamentally different thing than scum. Scum concerned with votes, lining up of lynches on people who aren't them. Town are more likely to be "lost" while scum are more likely to be vanishing.

Not a great explanation, but dif win cons means different attitude, brain will pick up dif info

Oh
This makes sense actually, thanks.

[SirCakez]

We have two days
Someone (Ranger I think?) brought up a tictac wagon earlier. I'd do that.

[SirCakez]

Actually
VOTE: tictac
Still think Mirhawk is scum but I want to try this. I have been voteparked too long, that part of the case on me is true.

[SirCakez]

Mixture of gut + meta + liking the reads progression (it was very very similar to mine) + catchup felt genuine
Stuck on mobile can go more in depth later if wanted

[SirCakez]

Spiffeh can you case Ranger for me?

[SirCakez]

My thoughts on what Seniors?

[SirCakez]

OK will do when I get to computer later Seniors
Ya I agree Swords was scummy but the only other thing that really applies is the read changing on you which isn't enough for a vote alone.
The wagon complacency is iffy because I'm guilty of the same thing and I'm town so :/

[SirCakez]

Why are you still scumreading Ogre?

[SirCakez]

I'll do the Ranger ISO and town case as soon as I get home, sorry for flaking on that.
I'm not as comfortable with a Seniors lynch anymore. I'd really prefer Mirhawk.

[SirCakez]

Were Ranger's reads fantastic primarily because they agreed with yours? What read of hers did you find most surprising?

Yes, they were very very similar to mine which I liked because mirroring a town mindset. Nothing was especially surprising about it.

[SirCakez]

I'll do the Ranger ISO and town case as soon as I get home, sorry for flaking on that.
I'm not as comfortable with a Seniors lynch anymore. I'd really prefer Mirhawk.

What has changed your read on Seniors?

I like how they are actually interacting with me, a main accuser of theirs, and trying to show how the case I made was wrong while Mirhawk just went "Cakez is obvscum his case on me sucks!".