Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[James Brafin]

Hi all, your friendly neighborhood GM here. Totally not going to plug and say you should check out R2D because it's the best thing since sliced bread.

That being said, VOTE: Nauci
Semi-serious. I'm not sure why town cares about there being a scumchat, but if the mod forgot to set it up, it would not surprise me if scum had a comment.

[James Brafin]

Oh, kk. Still suspect, but it's a valid albi.

Unvote

That being said, Thor, I think the answer to your question in #16 is "Who is scum." Also not a fan of post 15, I'll explain in a bit.

[James Brafin]

tl:dr - this entire commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

From top to here, I'm comfortable. All normal IC stuff.

Ah, scum do have day chat apparently.

I don't think I've played against scum with day chat before, so I'm not sure how that changes the meta/strategy. Any thoughts, IC?

Some suggest it changes everything because *scum can plan!*
I suggest it changes very little except town getting paranoid about how much it changes.
I tend to ignore it, myself, doesn't appear to affect my scum spotting accuracy.

I feel like this is odd. Daychat does change things a lot. Scum no longer has to associate with one another, and therefore it makes it harder to hunt, esp. by association. It has nothing to do with planning; they can effectively go two completely different directions and screw up town royally.

(does it give too much info to scum? Is it easily faked? idk). I'm similarly against tracker claiming as I was against the previous "breaks." I'll let the IC explain this stuff though, because I don't think I can do it justice. And also because ICs are bound by the rules to tell the truth about theory.

The current "break" is not a "break".
It is a strategy that is not inherently bad.
I suggest that optimal Tracker play is to claim Day 2, but many would disagree with me both arguing earlier and later and no singular group is overwhelmingly correct (except me, my answer is the best).

Mabye this is just me, but this feels like it might be shading AtA a bit. The actual post isn't bad, it's the specific wording that is pining me a bit.

Vote: Nauci

Because I don't feel like allowing him to let personal feelings dictate votes instead of evidence.
Or maybe he's scum.
Win either way.

And this bothers me. We are in RVS; personal feeling is all we are voting on right no. No info, remember? This post feels conf-biased, a bit forced, and I honestly can't see teh town beifit from posting it. By far this is what has me the most concerned.

[James Brafin]

Oh, kk. Still suspect, but it's a valid albi.

Why would you expect scum to post in thread as opposed to, say, PMing the mod?

It's not that I expect scum to do it as much as I don't expect town to do it. If you believe what you say and don't think the daychat matters, don't YOU think it's odd they mentioned it?

That being said, Thor, I think the answer to your question in #16 is "Who is scum."

If that's true, why isn't he doing it?

A fine question. I will agree with the idea that he may be active lurking.

Also not a fan of post 15, I'll explain in a bit.

Cool, I look forward to the detailed and full analysis requiring the pause to collect your thoughts

I appreciate that. But it feels to me that you're trying to shade taht I'm trying to build a case without any basis. Is this correct?

[James Brafin]

I feel like this is odd. Daychat does change things a lot. Scum no longer has to associate with one another, and therefore it makes it harder to hunt, esp. by association. It has nothing to do with planning; they can effectively go two completely different directions and screw up town royally.

Can you describe an example of them doing this and why they could only do it with Daychat as opposed to scum play without daychat?
Because I can't think of one - but, like I said, some people disagree with me.
Also, you are aware that, as an IC, I'm actually not allowed to lie about game theory...and this is a game theory question, so by definition either my answer is my honest thoughts or you should report me to the mod.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74985

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

Mabye this is just me, but this feels like it might be shading AtA a bit. The actual post isn't bad, it's the specific wording that is pining me a bit.

Again - not allowed to lie about game theory.
Also, how would me "shading" this game theory help me win as scum/hurt town exactly?

I suggest that optimal Tracker play is to claim Day 2, but many would disagree with me both arguing earlier and later and no singular group is overwhelmingly correct (except me, my answer is the best).

Again, opinion, not fact.

And this bothers me. We are in RVS; personal feeling is all we are voting on right now. No info, remember? This post feels conf-biased, a bit forced, and I honestly can't see the town benefit from posting it. By far this is what has me the most concerned.

You don't understand the context of my response, that Nauci didn't react suggests she does.
Why did you decide it was scummy and call me out on it after multiple days as opposed to just asking 'hey, why did you do this?' and then getting my answer and calling *that* scummy or townish?
You put the cart before the horse, yeah?

I suppose I did. So then I will ask you, what WAS the point/context of your response?

It's not that I expect scum to do it as much as I don't expect town to do it. If you believe what you say and don't think the daychat matters, don't YOU think it's odd they mentioned it?

I find it non-alignment telling, but I will admit my knee jerk response is town would be more willing to bring it up because they wouldn't think it would make them look scummy, whereas scum would be less likely to for the reverse reasons.

Why do you think scum would be more likely to do it?

Because, imo, as town, why do we care about scum daychat, or multiball factions, or whatever? We don't (I don't, anyways); we only care about finding scum and getting them lynched. So when players estimate on scum numbers as a whole, I don't find it suspect, but any further and I always start asking "Why does town care at all?"

I appreciate that. But it feels to me that you're trying to shade that I'm trying to build a case without any basis. Is this correct?

[/quote]
I was absolutely trying to shade you - were you expecting me to agree that I look like scum regardless of my alignment, or to agree that you could have a remotely worthwhile case on me?[/quote]

No and no. I wasn't, however, expecting a shade on me not actually having a case and trying to look townie. It seems to me that genuine town would be interested in other reads, even if they are slightly delayed. I don't see that shade coming from town.

Vote: Thor665

Fairly confident in this.

[James Brafin]

Welcome Irrelephant and Flicker!

VOTE: teacher

Wtf

You can't just come in this late, long after non RVS discussion had begun, and lay a vote on a wagon while claiming randomness absolves you of responsibility or something. How can you doubt something random?

Totally in agreement with this. Also, I can stop bolding, but I'm going to keep the red when I respond like this so people can see at a glance what I have to say.

Hello World!

Nauci made me feel welcome, so now I feel sad as Nauci is my current most favorite for scum what with just nice welcoming posts and some chat about the setup

This seems both odd and sort of misrep-y. If anything, Nauci has made a lot of conversation. I am starting to null-read her.

James, can you break it down a bit better for the rest of us plebs?

Break down what, exactly? You're going to have to be more specific than that.

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

MAGES
There is so much wrong with this post. A) You don't policy lynch for posting style (I mean, how weak and untownie is that?). B) Why is confidence a bad thing? Scum is not going to be confident in their reads, they are going to waffle a bit. C) If you agree with something someone is doing, why wouldn't you follow them? D) Where is this Meji Fan thing coming from?

[James Brafin]

I'd like to apologize for being absent. We've had company this weekend and I forgot to V/LA. However, a lot has happened and I hope to address most of it this afternoon.

One thing I will say: Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

[James Brafin]

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

MAGES
There is so much wrong with this post. A) You don't policy lynch for posting style (I mean, how weak and untownie is that?). B) Why is confidence a bad thing? Scum is not going to be confident in their reads, they are going to waffle a bit. C) If you agree with something someone is doing, why wouldn't you follow them? D) Where is this Meji Fan thing coming from?

A) When the posting style is as visually irritating (and potentially confusing, given your quoting mistakes) as yours initially was, I think it's something to consider. No one else here feels the need to make their text a different color (save the mod, of course), and we can follow the back-and-forth just fine. I already had a bit of a headache when I started reading, which made your text seem extra irritating, but still - I don't think players should have their own text colors, and if a policy lynch on you discouraged that, good.

Why does changing my playstyle entail policy lynching and potentially throwing the game? In fact, why would town care so much about posting style of this form at all? This is a discussion for outside the game, not something to lynch over, and I don't like the fact that you continue to defend it so vehemently. But for your and other's sakes, I'll just underline my comments on others posts from now on.

B) Just because you don't think scum is going to be confident doesn't mean that town should feel confident with little information. Especially since, when you posted your read on Thor665, there were three slots which either hadn't posted or essentially hadn't posted (ImBad14/Irrelephant11, TheGoldenParadox, and CH4M3L30N/me), and it's possible that one or both scum is in this three (I don't know what the exact % is on that, math wasn't my strongest subject). (Also, I know I just FoS'd myself, but what'cha gonna do in pursuit of the truth? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Going to cover a few things here: A) Scum will be confident in a bad read on a few occasions, but only if they are for sure going to get away with a lynch, imo. Why would scum have such extreme confidence in a read that has literally no chance of getting lynched at that point? B) Argument from probability. Just because something is possible doesn't make any of my points less valid.

C) I didn't want to just come in and copy-paste Nauci (or anyone's) vote, especially since I don't have any good reads yet. I also thought pursuing a new vote would be more productive and sheeping would be lazy.

This is fair, and I understand the following comments as well.

D) The "Meji Fan thing" is me acknowledging that they also thought teacher's vote was off (post #40). Speaking of...

UNVOTE: nauci

Still travelling though tomorrow night USA time so will be brief. My vote was knowing it would be L-2. I figured it would either prompt some mafia to bandwagon or to speak up in defence if he was maf. Neither really happened though James did speak. As for silence, that’s what I meant - not Nauci but others not defending him or creating another wagon.

Look forward to reading tomorrow.

If that was your intention, why not wait for more activity before unvoting? Whether or not you're confident in a vote, I don't think backing off of it so quickly is very helpful.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74985

Could you narrow that down a bit - I have zero interest in reading an entire game.

My point is that scum showed no association whatsoever, and threw me, then came in for a clever hammer and duped me into trusting them.

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

What the heck are you even arguing now?
That I'm giving bad advice intentionally and I'd guard myself by claiming it was opinion not fact (even though, as already noted, that would be against IC play policy)

No, other way around; you give off opinions and use the fact that you are the IC and know more about the game to validate them.

I suppose I did. So then I will ask you, what WAS the point/context of your response?

Not a fan of this handwave of the blatant hole in your method.
I'd like you to discuss your thoughts on why you had a confident read based on me breaking the IC rules and based on a random theory of what I meant with no questioning about it first.

To answer your question - do a search for Nauci and I in a game, my comments are very valid in that context. I'm not allowed to say any more.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but this counts as discussing ongoing games. (Believe me, I've been reprimanded for this before.) So though I'd love to, I can't do what you are asking me.

Because, imo, as town, why do we care about scum daychat, or multiball factions, or whatever? We don't (I don't, anyways); we only care about finding scum and getting them lynched. So when players estimate on scum numbers as a whole, I don't find it suspect, but any further and I always start asking "Why does town care at all?"

Isn't it your argument that scum Daychat changes the way scum play, and thus town *should* be aware of it to adjust their scumhunting (indeed, you're implying I lied about this to fake town out) how can you both believe it is game changing and also that town shouldn't care whether scum have Daytalk?

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

No and no. I wasn't, however, expecting a shade on me not actually having a case and trying to look townie. It seems to me that genuine town would be interested in other reads, even if they are slightly delayed. I don't see that shade coming from town.

You're saying town should love and embrace cases on themselves?
That seems nonsensical.
Do you have a long history of supporting cases on yourself when town?
I think it's super reasonable that when any case on me is, by definition, based on one post, that I can believe it's probably weak without having to hear it. After hearing it, even you are admitting you maybe were a touch sloppy, so I appear to be objectively correct on some level, yet now you're calling me scummy for being right?
How does that work?

A refutation is one thing. A subtle shade to discredit before I can get the words out of my mouth is another. I don't expect town or scum to support a case like mine, but I do expect town to be at least neutral toward it before they hear it. I don't think you being right that I was sloppy is scummy, I think that it's scummy that you called me out on it before I even did it.

James, can you break it down a bit better for the rest of us plebs?

Break down what, exactly? You're going to have to be more specific than that.

Flickr basically answered this but...

Your initial post with broken quotations, bolded red text just made it an eyesore to read. We can identify who is who pretty clearly without the need to superfluously enhance the text. For me, I initially couldn't identify Thor and Nauci. Could you please not use the color text at all unless it is absolutely necessary?

Yes, I am underlining now. Hopefully this helps.

I'm going to not bother with the quotes because they're broken and I suck at fixing them.
In regards to your back and forth with Thor...

1. I agree with Thor on daytime scum chat - gameplay is little to no different overall. Scum wouldn't be associating themselves to begin with, day chat wouldn't change this.

2. I wouldn't call stratagem discussion as a form of shading. Discussion of stratagem is really NAI but it detracts town from scum hunting. Not sure how you can misinterpret it as a scum tell, or how can you spin it off as the IC basically doing (not doing in your eyes?) his job. He gave his opinion on the subject of said stratagem. There is no factual "yes you should play this way," "no you shouldn't play this way." You either agree with the IC's assessment on it, because the IC is still just a player like you or me, or you disagree with it and move on.

3. There's a few ways to play out D1. Ask questions, get reactions, vote for pressure. I like the evidence style. If a player is actively acting like they're pursuing an obvious mislynch for example, that's evidence to be used. Towns best weapon is the vote, and it should be used to put pressure on players that are acting negatively.

There really isn't a case to build upon on Thor. We could just go off of his wiki and just say we lynch him based off of that. Think that's a better case.

While I respect your opinions, I don't agree with the first, and when an opinion is stated by a player with more experience and then is attempted to be made sound more forcible by "authority," I get jumpy. That always bothers me.

I'm lost on how I am originally involved in the conversation. I reached to X with Y and that meant Z?

I'm super lost within the red text and broken quotations on what either of you guys' opinions are of whatever it was that I did/didn't do? Like I don't know if this is something I need to clear up about my actions o_o

You are incredibly lost, because, for starters - I never made *any* comment about that. And even if his posts are all a mass of confusion, I don't think mine have been. Maybe do a second skim over the day or something?

His issue with you remains your commentary about Day chat.
His last commentary about you was that he null reads you - so I'm not even sure what you are looking to understand, as he's kind of half admitting now his entire push was meaningless.

Does that help you?
I really think you need to go read the game again.

My opinion is that your comment on scum daychat is odd and not town-aligned. But that's just me. And I'm aware I need to reread, thanks.

It would also explain why the two of them have been arguing over what feels like a lot of nothing - or at least, it's mostly goign over my head, these arguments about how the game works and how an IC works.

Why is it going over your head? I feel I'm being very clear, and I'm starting to feel people are using one ugly post by James to claim they can't assess the debate. Allow me to make it a very simple debate for you (James can feel free to weigh in if he thinks I'm misrepping him;

Thor: 1st post.
James

I suspect that post - reasons coming soon!

Thor: I find needing time to pull together your thoughts to imply your thoughts will be hogwash.
James

It's scummy that you would say that - also here is my case on Thor, I think he lied about theory and also called me scummy!

Thor: (I am just now realizing that him calling out how I shaded his case on me as a reason to present in his case doesn't make a lot of sense timeline wise But here's what I said;)There are rules governing how an IC answers theory questions, so by definition your case is 50% wonky. Also, why should I support a case on me?
James

I disregard your point about the rules due to a very twisted concept of what an IC can do, even though I can't describe how it helped you if you're scum - also I will now kind of call you scummy for downplaying scum daytalk while also saying that Nauci is scum because town shouldn't care about Daytalk enough to ask about it

Thor: either Daytalk is potent enough that I should describe it as scary *or* it's not scary and town shouldn't talk about it - you're currently claiming both to call both Nauci and I scum, which makes no logical sense. How do you justify this dichotomy?

I can't decide whether this is misunderstanding or misrep, but it's bad either case. I'm aware that IC can't lie about theory. Never what I said. I think you are using your status as IC to make your opinions sound like fact and therefore more reasonable. WHICH IS ALLOWED.
I never said you should support a case on yourself.
And I've answered the rest above.

And that's where we're at.
Does the argument read to you now, and can you understand our stances and points?
Do you still consider them meaningless, or do you have an opinion about someone being more or less correct? Do you see scum motivation still in either or both of our stances and why?

In 31, JB accuses Thor of "shading" him for what was pretty clearly a joke. And in 35, Thor asks "Also, how would me "shading" this game theory help me win as scum/hurt town exactly?" which from what I can tell (if I'm reading these posts right - yikes), JB doesn't respond to?

How can you say this and think;
1. It was a joke (when James doubled down on it)
2. That I would castigate my scumpartner so painfully if he was joking with us, since you seem to believe I'd be coaching him for any misstep?

4.

Flickr

. Replacement in at 43. Immediately votes James at 45 because of chat mechanics, but indicates uncertainty. Post 45 criticizes me for wagoning, but Post 57 criticizes my unvote (contradictory?). Post 57 notes who was AFK early game, and responds to James's suspicions in post 50.

Bottom Line

: Has been active since arrival, and provides analysis of player's (mostly my) moves. Slight townread.

I wasn't criticizing you for wagoning, I was criticizing your

reasoning

for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning. I was counting the number of posts more than the time between them, but either way the game had been fairly slow up until that vote, and jumping off the vote that soon rather than waiting longer to see if your "gambit" worked struck me as odd. Your further explanation in post #68 does not make me feel better, as A) more than 24 hours had actually passed, and B) I don't understand why a vote count would mean your vote could no longer produce information.

I also don't like your blow-by-blow analysis of every player (including yourself for some reason?) in post #66. It's a lot more (unnecessary) summary than analysis, and a little hard to read. Maybe even too try-hard, like a scum player thinking "how can I look the most town"?

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

You should not be voting just to get others to follow you. Maybe that's not your intention, but it sure is what it reads like.

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

I agree with Nauci's town reads/leans on you and Thor. I have the slightest town read on DirtyDishSoap, based on differences in play style between this game and Newbie 1856.

I was feeling a conflicted null about Nauci, but something about the in-and-out of the hospital and on powerful meds info, and continuing to play through that, makes me think she's town? If she was mafia it seems like those would be more of an issue.

I think I've made my scummy feelings about James and teacher pretty clear.

Meji Fan and TheGoldenParadox have not posted enough for me to get any read on. Feel free to post more at any time, you two.

PEdit:

Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

I've been thinking of scum teams already, too. After reading teacher's analysis the first time, I thought it might be you and Nauci. But, my reads changed before I posted again, so it wasn't worth mentioning. It's barely worth mentioning now, except to say that I don't think that having a scum team theory is scummy.

Neither do I in some situations. But the timing of it, the doubt of it, and the lack of hunting before pings me. He went from "Oh, I'm not really doing anything" to "Possible scumteam." It honestly feels like he's trying to set one or both of us up for a fall.

And I'm going to unvote because really, there is no reason for my vote to be where it is right now.
UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

[James Brafin]

A) What about Elephant?
B)

I feel like this is odd. Daychat does change things a lot. Scum no longer has to associate with one another, and therefore it makes it harder to hunt, esp. by association. It has nothing to do with planning; they can effectively go two completely different directions and screw up town royally.

Can you describe an example of them doing this and why they could only do it with Daychat as opposed to scum play without daychat?
Because I can't think of one - but, like I said, some people disagree with me.
Also, you are aware that, as an IC, I'm actually not allowed to lie about game theory...and this is a game theory question, so by definition either my answer is my honest thoughts or you should report me to the mod.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74985

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

Mabye this is just me, but this feels like it might be shading AtA a bit. The actual post isn't bad, it's the specific wording that is pining me a bit.

Again - not allowed to lie about game theory.
Also, how would me "shading" this game theory help me win as scum/hurt town exactly?

I suggest that optimal Tracker play is to claim Day 2, but many would disagree with me both arguing earlier and later and no singular group is overwhelmingly correct (except me, my answer is the best).

Again, opinion, not fact.

Nowhere did I say that you were presenting opinion as fact. I even said you were approaching it as an opinion. However, you CAN state an opinion and make it sound plausible by AfA.
So you ARE misrepping.
C) NO! Just because something "changes the game" doesn't mean we should care as town. Aesthetic "changes the game" but does town care? No. The same is true of multiball (only scum cares then), and I'd argue the same is true of daychat.
Now totally confident this is scum.
VOTE: Thor

[James Brafin]

*sighs* I've got a lot of catchup to do.

I'm starting to scumread DDS for post #126.
A) I didn't do it to be annoying; I did it when I quote lots of stuff to make it easier to read. I'm going to take Irrelephant's advice tho and start just leaving the post number and comments. But regardless, this is a massive misrep and Attack on Person. Not to mention we aren't DISCUSSING stratagem, so I have no idea where that came from.
B) There's also an Attack on Person on Nauci. DDS seems to be trying to make players seem inept and their opinion trivial simply on the grounds that "they are bad posters." While the complaints about her being sick are a tad bothersome, they don't warrant THAT.
C) Aren't YOU discussing stratagem in your post, in your paragraph about NOT discussing stratagem? Besides, we are far beyond that topic. Only YOU are still hung up over it; my reasoning is that Thor could make opinion sound like fact because of his IC role. It is NOT a strat discussion.
D) That was obviously a joke, not a scumslip. He's not "lied multiple times," he's making a humorous statement, and I think you know it. This is a crappy placeholder vote.

Right now, DDS looks far scummier than Thor based on ONE POST.
VOTE: DDS

Also starting to get pinged by teach after a reread; he seems to be tryhard summarizing or active lurking, so to speak.

My reads at the moment:
=============================================================================================================================
Tonwread:
Nauci

Town lean:
None

Null:
Meji Fan
Flicker
TheGoldenParadox

Scumlean:
Irrelephant11
Thor
teacher

Scumread:
DDS

[James Brafin]

Flicker: And why do you think I care? Only scum appears about appearances. Don't try any assumption before narrative things on me here.

In agreement with Teacher on post 120. His stuff makes sense coming from town, but for some reason you are scumreading him? That's really contradictory.

Teacher, this is typical TGP. He almost always lurks as town.

[James Brafin]

Will catch up and explain my flip-flopping in a bit. Been gone all day, and I have at least 1 paper to write, AND I have a mish-mash game I need to start.

[James Brafin]

Okay, catch-up time.

Here are my suspects so far:
Flicker.
Here I am sheeping the case of Oxy against them.
MejiFan.
I don't like their obsession of Nauci; they seem to focused on them. This frequently happens to scum, there is a difference between town tunneling and scum "tunneling" and this looks like the latter.
James Brafin.
James is flip-flopping their votes and they give me a bad feeling.
VOTE: James Brafin

It's the thor-unvote-thor that you're not liking, ya?

Yes, Brafin says

Vote: Thor665
Fairly confident in this.

then

And I'm going to unvote because really, there is no reason for my vote to be where it is right now.
UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

unvoting the top and only scumread without good explanation, what is the town motivation for this?
"Hey, this one is most sus but I will unvote them!" This is likely scum. Did you ever see a townie act like that?

Then Brafin notices the problem, probably, and tries to fix it one post after that:

Now totally confident this is scum.
VOTE: Thor

the progression does not make sense.
Next is this shit:

A) I didn't do it to be annoying; I did it when I quote lots of stuff to make it easier to read. I'm going to take Irrelephant's advice tho and start just leaving the post number and comments. But regardless, this is a massive misrep and Attack on Person. Not to mention we aren't DISCUSSING stratagem, so I have no idea where that came from.
B) There's also an Attack on Person on Nauci. DDS seems to be trying to make players seem inept and their opinion trivial simply on the grounds that "they are bad posters." While the complaints about her being sick are a tad bothersome, they don't warrant THAT.
C) Aren't YOU discussing stratagem in your post, in your paragraph about NOT discussing stratagem? Besides, we are far beyond that topic. Only YOU are still hung up over it; my reasoning is that Thor could make opinion sound like fact because of his IC role. It is NOT a strat discussion.
D) That was obviously a joke, not a scumslip. He's not "lied multiple times," he's making a humorous statement, and I think you know it. This is a crappy placeholder vote.

A refuses to acknowledge that DDS never said that it was scummy, just annoying; and annoying town is anti-town. A massive misrep is far from that.
B refuses to acknowledge that DDS said that it makes them badly readable and annoying, not necessarily scum. An AOP on these grounds- how is it AI?
C looks really like a misrep. DDS told them that they differ on them on the opinion that IC strat is AI/NAI. Additionally, if Brafin continues to use that as argument, why can't DDS tell them that it is in their opinion invalid?
D jumps on a clarified misunderstanding. Why?

Scumlean:
Thor

How did we get there from

totally confident

?

We'll start with this: What is this shit? First, we have assumption before narrative.
Then, he's sheeping Oxy's EXISTENT case on flicker, but he votes me.

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

Then we have a tactic change, and he goes at me with a chainsaw against DDS.
A) Let's make something very clear:

WHEN YOU SAY SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING FOR ONE REASON, AND THEY DIDN'T, THAT IS A MISREP.

I was never trying to be annoying, I never phrased my words to make it look like I was trying to be annoying. So yes, it was a misrep, and an AoP to boot. And since when is annoying town anti-town? I have played with town that made me rage (mulch) but they were still town.
B) It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. (From the wiki)
An AoP is ALWAYS scummy, because it tries to make other players look bad based on outside information not relevant to the game.
C) No one has continued on the topic of IC strategies. since the first page. Where the frick is this coming from? That is NOT my argument.
D) If he understood that, why did he not move his vote?

I want this lynched so bad it's not even funny.

@Oxy,

A) Ignoring the "partly as a policy lynch", since it's obvious (to me atleast) that that wasn't really the main reason for her vote - it was JB's high confidence that he'd found scum so early, which I also thought was bad.

B)As someone with scum reads on both Teacher and JB, I totally understand doing her best to vote whichever one it seems like town is voting for. Like, enough townies do have to agree at some point, so this doesn't seem to say much for her either way

C) Said in 120 (the same post) that "Now more people vote for James?" was a joke.

D) I feel like I read somewhere on the wiki that copying your towniest read's vote (that's what sheeping is, yes?) is sometimes good strategy? Because if you can get a majority group who are definitely town voting together, the odds of hitting town are much lower than random. Idk, since she didn't actually sheep I don't see your problem with it. What would be the scum motivation for staying on Teacher, or for mentioning-but-then-not sheeping Nauci?

E) "Very last post called Nauci null and opined about the possibility of a Nauci scum team." huh? not seeing this. Or knowing what it means. In fact if anything it seems Flicker has been kind of weirdly consistently confident that Nauci is town all game. What are you saying here?

I would like to point out that don't you think it's weird that Flicker has been that confident on a slot that is rather null? I feel like that's a bit scum-aligned from Flicker; she doesn't like that I'm confident, but then has this weird confidence going on herself, and hers has little basis.

Oxy:

My read on James - overly confident, has an odd read list that's heavily lopsided towards scum (post #131), and re-skimming his ISO, it seems like he's trying to build up his own authority while tearing down others' (e.g. in post #85, when he says "I can't believe I'm saying this, but this counts as discussing ongoing games" re: Thor hinting at playing another game with Nauci, when it seems like the mod only called out DDS for it) (there's also been a couple comments directed at me with an air of "take my advice, I know what I'm talking about").

Are you scumreading me?

Also, flicker "likes" NK15 with two posts with any content, one of which is heavy ABN and the other is crap. That makes me super happy. *sarcasm*

So here's what I'm thinking:
First, I'm getting the feeling that DDS was jsut a very emotional, gutsy, and (dare I say it) anti-town townie, because Oxy comes in and pretty much cleans up the slot, and he strikes me as town for sure.

I'm null-reading Elepahnt now, same with Thor. There's just not enough evidence to justify a vote on either one of them.

But my scumread on NK15 is so hard it's not even funny. Consider it a death tunnel.
As For flicker, her play isn't any better and then she goes and associates herself with NK15, gets friendly with them, and encourages them. It reads to me as a reminder from NK15's scumbuddy that he's still here and not to vote him. Because honestly, what town wants to be friends with an ABN, chainsaw-defending, bad-argument slot? Combined with the fact that NK voted for

me

with no case on them instead of

Flicker

with a decent case on them, I think I know where our scumteam is.

VOTE: NK15

And watch the flak come in for changing my vote again. But there will be no misrep or confusion on why I did it this time.

[James Brafin]

@JB - I dont disagree with the NK vote. That slot had been inactive, and NK didnt provide much info (esp. as compared to Oxy) after arrival. But I do not appreciate your not answering several questions put to you. Speaking of, heres another one: Can you articulate the case on Flicker again?

I also, FWIW, disagree with you on the def of a misrep. We know very few peoples motives here. We can read into their posts as we will, and suggest potential motivations. It is not a misrep if the reads/assumptions are wrong, as they are simply assumptions. It is a misrep if the motives were explained, and then mischaracterized. For a good example of a misrep - though it was inadvertent - my suggestion that Flicker defended a DDS townread in 120, whereas the reality is that he backed away from it. Flicker would have been right to call it misreppy (but didnt, which I appreciate). You have used Misrep alot so far this game, and I have disagreed with almost every instance.

1) I'm not sure I understand what questions I missed. I have been skimming a lot tho so if you could point them out, I'll answer them. The Flicker case I'll elaborate on in a bit, but I'd be happy to! It just really needs its own post.
2) While I don't agree with your opinion, it is your opinion and I will respect that. However, it feels to me that there's a lot of lack of reading between the lines this game, and that might be part of it.

Thanks, James. I've got a couple follow-up questions.
1) Could you please explain why you go from the first quote to the second quote? (emphasis mine)

I want this lynched so bad it's not even funny.

But my scumread on NK15 is so hard it's not even funny. Consider it a death tunnel.

As For flicker, her play isn't any better and then she goes and associates herself with NK15, gets friendly with them, and encourages them. It reads to me as a reminder from NK15's scumbuddy that he's still here and not to vote him. Because honestly, what town wants to be friends with an ABN, chainsaw-defending, bad-argument slot? Combined with the fact that

NK voted for me with no case on them instead of Flicker with a decent case on them, I think I know where our scumteam is.

Those both apply to NK15. If I'm not being blatant enough, I think Flicker is his partner.

2) Could you please tell me what you believe the phrase ABN means, and why it applies to NK's argument? I think I'm probably being dense here, but please humor me.

Assumption Before Narrative.

Sorry (maybe) for multipost

@James You might consider this part of Teacher's question, but I want to make sure you address it. How, and on which slot, has Flicker shown overconfidence?

On Nauci, and again, I'll elaborate in a further post.

Are you scumreading me?

... why do you even have to ask?

And if you're so sure that

I'm

scum all of a sudden (you've been pretty null on me until now), why not vote me instead? Wouldn't teaming up with Oxy be more productive than trying to create a new wagon this far into the day? Or did you not notice that Nauci moved her vote to teacher?

I don't find teacher nearly as scummy as you and NK15. But that's a nice try, trying to make me look flip-floppy again. TOTALLY not contrived. And I'm sure your scum because your case is bull. again, more on that in a bit.

[James Brafin]

Flail-y much?
We'll take this one objection at a time.

Here are my suspects so far:
Flicker.
Here I am sheeping the case of Oxy against them.
MejiFan.
I don't like their obsession of Nauci; they seem to focused on them. This frequently happens to scum, there is a difference between town tunneling and scum "tunneling" and this looks like the latter.
James Brafin.
James is flip-flopping their votes and they give me a bad feeling.
VOTE: James Brafin

ASSUMPTION

It's the thor-unvote-thor that you're not liking, ya?

Yes, Brafin says

Vote: Thor665
Fairly confident in this.

then

And I'm going to unvote because really, there is no reason for my vote to be where it is right now.
UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

unvoting the top and only scumread without good explanation, what is the town motivation for this?
"Hey, this one is most sus but I will unvote them!" This is likely scum. Did you ever see a townie act like that?

Then Brafin notices the problem, probably, and tries to fix it one post after that:

Now totally confident this is scum.
VOTE: Thor

the progression does not make sense.
Next is this shit:

A) I didn't do it to be annoying; I did it when I quote lots of stuff to make it easier to read. I'm going to take Irrelephant's advice tho and start just leaving the post number and comments. But regardless, this is a massive misrep and Attack on Person. Not to mention we aren't DISCUSSING stratagem, so I have no idea where that came from.
B) There's also an Attack on Person on Nauci. DDS seems to be trying to make players seem inept and their opinion trivial simply on the grounds that "they are bad posters." While the complaints about her being sick are a tad bothersome, they don't warrant THAT.
C) Aren't YOU discussing stratagem in your post, in your paragraph about NOT discussing stratagem? Besides, we are far beyond that topic. Only YOU are still hung up over it; my reasoning is that Thor could make opinion sound like fact because of his IC role. It is NOT a strat discussion.
D) That was obviously a joke, not a scumslip. He's not "lied multiple times," he's making a humorous statement, and I think you know it. This is a crappy placeholder vote.

A refuses to acknowledge that DDS never said that it was scummy, just annoying; and annoying town is anti-town. A massive misrep is far from that.
B refuses to acknowledge that DDS said that it makes them badly readable and annoying, not necessarily scum. An AOP on these grounds- how is it AI?
C looks really like a misrep. DDS told them that they differ on them on the opinion that IC strat is AI/NAI. Additionally, if Brafin continues to use that as argument, why can't DDS tell them that it is in their opinion invalid?
D jumps on a clarified misunderstanding. Why?

Scumlean:
Thor

How did we get there from

totally confident

?

NARRATIVE

Any questions?

[James Brafin]

@James Yeah, I have a question. Why is him scum reading and voting you for something, and then explaining that something, scummy?

To both you and NK15: NK made me scum, and then built his case on why I was scum (which is now falling apart btw). That's why he's scummy; he said I was scum, and then had to defend it, not the other way around; he should have made a case, and THEN scumread me and voted me.

[James Brafin]

Oxy: Yes.

Nauci: I am afraid, good lady, that we are never going to get along.

[James Brafin]

Kay, just skimmed after two busy days. I'm not sure WHAT everyone thinks I softed, but I didn't. I'm a VT. Hammer as you will. My scumteam remains between Flicker and NK15 and maybe Teacher now too for that bullshit soft claim. Lynch if you want, I'm not backing down and I'm sure that both scum are on my wagon. Have a nice day, and I'll do a more thorough catch-up later.

[James Brafin]

Yes. I am also townreading Nauci. Irrelaphant & you, and nullreading thor.

[James Brafin]

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

You seem to have missed this question.

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

[James Brafin]

Flicker Case

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

Firstly, what the heck? Second page, first post by Flicker, and we are already discussing policy lynching? And her only other reason is that she doesn't like "confidence." I don't understand why town can't eb confident in their scum reads, esp. since she's confident in her town reads later on.

4.

Flickr

. Replacement in at 43. Immediately votes James at 45 because of chat mechanics, but indicates uncertainty. Post 45 criticizes me for wagoning, but Post 57 criticizes my unvote (contradictory?). Post 57 notes who was AFK early game, and responds to James's suspicions in post 50.

Bottom Line

: Has been active since arrival, and provides analysis of player's (mostly my) moves. Slight townread.

I wasn't criticizing you for wagoning, I was criticizing your

reasoning

for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning. I was counting the number of posts more than the time between them, but either way the game had been fairly slow up until that vote, and jumping off the vote that soon rather than waiting longer to see if your "gambit" worked struck me as odd. Your further explanation in post #68 does not make me feel better, as A) more than 24 hours had actually passed, and B) I don't understand why a vote count would mean your vote could no longer produce information.

I also don't like your blow-by-blow analysis of every player (including yourself for some reason?) in post #66. It's a lot more (unnecessary) summary than analysis, and a little hard to read. Maybe even too try-hard, like a scum player thinking "how can I look the most town"?

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Oh look, confidence in a read, after saying she doesn't are for this confidence from me. Surprise. And then there is this thing about not getting followers. It looks like she's trying to lead a lynch and gain town cred.

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

I agree with Nauci's town reads/leans on you and Thor. I have the slightest town read on DirtyDishSoap, based on differences in play style between this game and Newbie 1856.

I was feeling a conflicted null about Nauci, but something about the in-and-out of the hospital and on powerful meds info, and continuing to play through that, makes me think she's town? If she was mafia it seems like those would be more of an issue.

I think I've made my scummy feelings about James and teacher pretty clear.

Meji Fan and TheGoldenParadox have not posted enough for me to get any read on. Feel free to post more at any time, you two.

PEdit:

Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

I've been thinking of scum teams already, too. After reading teacher's analysis the first time, I thought it might be you and Nauci. But, my reads changed before I posted again, so it wasn't worth mentioning. It's barely worth mentioning now, except to say that I don't think that having a scum team theory is scummy.

James:

Why does changing my playstyle entail policy lynching and potentially throwing the game? In fact, why would town care so much about posting style of this form at all? This is a discussion for outside the game, not something to lynch over, and I don't like the fact that you continue to defend it so vehemently. But for your and other's sakes, I'll just underline my comments on others posts from now on.

Thank you - I appreciate the change (even if others have noted continued issues). I don't want to keep talking about this, so this is going to be my last comment, but I foresaw a long game full of the annoyance of reading your posts, and I figured, at worst, town could afford one early mislynch if it meant a better reading experience going forward.

This is freaking insane. Town should never shoot for a mislynch that gives them no information. That's just stupid; how are you going to catch scum if you lynch for no info, esp. that early? This is a blatant attempt to make a very scummy action (getting a mislynch) look less scummy.

Going to cover a few things here: A) Scum will be confident in a bad read on a few occasions, but only if they are for sure going to get away with a lynch, imo. Why would scum have such extreme confidence in a read that has literally no chance of getting lynched at that point? B) Argument from probability. Just because something is possible doesn't make any of my points less valid.

A) I think scum are more likely to be confident, regardless of circumstance, because they actually are more confident. It doesn't seem like a great idea to express that confidence, but maybe that was a slip. B) Even if your points were ironclad, my issue was that your confidence was suspect, given the silence from so many slots.

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

You should not be voting just to get others to follow you. Maybe that's not your intention, but it sure is what it reads like.

It's not that I wanted/needed others to follow me, just that - like Nauci said - I felt my vote was better served to double hers up and put more pressure on teacher rather than being the only one on you. Given teacher's posts after that, I feel like it was worth it.

Rereading your post, there's no way that's your intention. There's no mention of Nauci in that post, or adding pressure. This is bull.

Neither do I in some situations. But the timing of it, the doubt of it, and the lack of hunting before pings me. He went from "Oh, I'm not really doing anything" to "Possible scumteam." It honestly feels like he's trying to set one or both of us up for a fall.

Looking at the ISO, I don't think it was that severe a progression. It's more, "Hey," to, "Here's some thoughts and questions," to, "Oh! What if..."

Irrelephant:

My inclination is to say James vs. Thor is either scum vs. town or town vs. town, because if Thor is scum I feel like it would make more sense to push James' mislynch rather than keeping his vote on Nauci.

How does Thor's new vote for JB change this perspective?

It doesn't, really - in fact, it seems like bad scum play for him to move his vote to James after I pointed how doing so could be scummy.

Everybody else:

I'll move back to voting James if that's the consensus lynch we can get, but for now I'd like to get teacher today and see what tomorrow brings. Unless something drastically changes, I'd rather not move my vote otherwise. In particular, I thought about sheeping Nauci and voting TGP, but teacher's also on TGP and I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

-hella sussing TGP for 98. feels like pocketing me plus misusing my point about ic stuff to FOS Thor with made up grounds

Potentially dumb newbie question: What does pocketing mean? I can't find it in the MS Wiki or through Google.

Flicker - I like his rebuttals and dig his posts. I get a good town vibe from him based off his interactions and I think his reads on other players make sense mostly. Only disagreement I have is labeling Teacher as TTTBT.

*Her, thanks.

I didn't say he's TTTBT (assuming this means "too town to be town"). I said he seems like scum (unsuccessfully) trying to look town. Although, honestly, I don't know what would qualify as TTTBT. "You're helping town too much, you must be scum" seems like bad logic. Unless I just don't know what TTTBT means, either.

DDS - Dirt Bag.

I like this post - a lot of your reactions are similar to mine, especially to teacher's "lying" (the first time I read that, I freaked out, too). Overall, putting you back in my town-lean pile.

PEdit: That's a lot of scum and not nearly enough town, James. You're not helping your case here.

A) Okay, so I lose my confidence, but I'm still scummy? What the literal frick? That makes NO sense to me.
B) It looks like you're both sucking up to DDS and looking for town cred in this interaction with him.

(Posting this without any links because I drafted this quickly and my internet's been on the fritz, sorry y'all.)

James:

Re: 143 - I guess what I should have said was that I could follow teacher's argument and would have (barely) accepted the read if it came from town? Like, if Irrelephant had said it instead, I would have gone, "eh, okay?" I don't think it's a great line of logic (note the ellipses before "fine" in both cases), which makes it questionable coming from a scum-read.

Not Known:

Other than your read on me, I generally like your posts so far. Gonna gently shuffle you towards my town read pile.

A) So you're telling me that that post, coming from town, is fine, but coming from scum, is not? That makes loads of sense; how is something indicative one way if one persons says it, but the other way if the other person says it?
B) This is subtle buddying. It reads like you are trying to remind your scumbuddy that you're their scumbuddy.

Oxy:

My read on James - overly confident, has an odd read list that's heavily lopsided towards scum (post #131), and re-skimming his ISO, it seems like he's trying to build up his own authority while tearing down others' (e.g. in post #85, when he says "I can't believe I'm saying this, but this counts as discussing ongoing games" re: Thor hinting at playing another game with Nauci, when it seems like the mod only called out DDS for it) (there's also been a couple comments directed at me with an air of "take my advice, I know what I'm talking about").

What the heck is this supposed to mean?

"If teacher won't," given his reluctance. It made sense initially, but now it strikes me as a little too concerned or accommodating.

And now we start paying attention to appearances once pressure is on.

His continued expressions of reluctance made me realize that my (similar) reluctance no longer made sense. So, I'm frustrated with him, myself, and the game in general - it feels like we're in a weird, in-between space where the day is basically over except for the actual lynch.

I've seen plenty of wagons fall apart at L-1. Trying to force the day to be over helps no one.

@Oxy: You make a good point about the lack of arguments (or counter-wagons pushed) against James' lynch. Would you like me to unvote? I'd also consider switching my vote to where you are, if you weren't voting for me.

My preferred lynch pool today includes You, Meji, and Nauci. In that order.

Welp. The only one on that list I'd be okay with lynching is Meji.

Also, I noticed you didn't answer my most pressing question, so I'll repeat it here:

Do you want me to unvote/switch my vote off James?

YES. HE does, he's telling you he wants you to move your vote btween one of those three. But you won't move your vote.

In summary: I find Flicker scummy because of her interest in the early policy lynch and her terrible defense of it, her hypocrisy on confidence and appearance, and apparent attempts to gain town cred.

[James Brafin]

If he flips scum Flicker partner makes a lot of sense.

Gonna think about it over dinner, but I might be the hammer tonight

Really, I attack my partner that hard?

[James Brafin]

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

random vote

Wrong answer.

UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

Thor as scum-lean

This does not add up.

You can have a scumlean and not be completely confident in it or confident enough in it to vote on it. You were just as confident in that Flicker case, but look where your vote landed.

[James Brafin]

Gonna return to this bullshit post, if you don't mind.

Then, he's sheeping Oxy's EXISTENT case on flicker, but he votes me.

Sheeping something means that I'd be happy to follow that path and basically agree on a case without having any other arguments. Not that I have to vote for it if I have a stronger scumread.

Why is your scumread stronger on me than Flicker?

Then we have a tactic change, and he goes at me with a chainsaw against DDS.

A chainsaw in itself is null.

Chainsaw Defense: The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". From the wiki. So THAT's bullshit.

A) Let's make something very clear:

WHEN YOU SAY SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING FOR ONE REASON, AND THEY DIDN'T, THAT IS A MISREP.

I was never trying to be annoying, I never phrased my words to make it look like I was trying to be annoying.

So yes, it was a misrep, and an AoP to boot. And since when is annoying town anti-town? I have played with town that made me rage (mulch) but they were still town.

If you wouldn't have already claimed scum, I'd ask you to be more precise about what exactly the misrep is.

It's IN THE FREAKING POST. Jeez.

B) It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. (From the wiki)
An AoP is ALWAYS scummy, because it tries to make other players look bad based on outside information not relevant to the game.

Except that information is very relevant to the game. The mood state of a player is very valuable information. And it is also not irrelevant when something irritates someone, or hinders their reads. It looks to me like "stop this plz it disrupts the game" and that is valid to say.

Let me get this straight:
It's okay for someone to tell someone they can't post in a certain way because "it's annoying?"

C) No one has continued on the topic of IC strategies. since the first page. Where the frick is this coming from? That is NOT my argument.

This is not true:

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

I'm sorry, how is A) this discussion of IC strat and B) not still at the beginning of the game?

D) If he understood that, why did he not move his vote?

No idea- unfortunately we cannot ask them now. However, it was not their only reason for voting Teacher, and they said it was a placeholder.

Then what were his other reasons for voting Teacher? Because I sure as heck don't see them.

I want this lynched so bad it's not even funny.


But my scumread on NK15 is so hard it's not even funny. Consider it a death tunnel.
As For flicker, her play isn't any better and then she goes and associates herself with NK15, gets friendly with them, and encourages them. It reads to me as a reminder from NK15's scumbuddy that he's still here and not to vote him. Because honestly, what town wants to be friends with an ABN, chainsaw-defending, bad-argument slot? Combined with the fact that NK voted for

me

with no case on them instead of

Flicker

with a decent case on them, I think I know where our scumteam is.

VOTE: NK15

And watch the flak come in for changing my vote again. But there will be no misrep or confusion on why I did it this time.

Yeah I am not confused why. You want to eliminate strong town.

that's a bold and reachy assumption considering this is your SECOND POST. This is flaily and looking to try and avoid my arguments.

Just to put the question out there, because I found it suspect, @NK - why did you pressure to L-1 half-way through the day?

It is usually not a good idea to wait until the end for L-1. Also, I thought that Brafin would need more pressure.
In a semi-open, especially, you don't want to wait too long. You need a buffer in the case that the lynch target claims a power role.
You don't lynch a uncounterclaimed power role Day 1. If you wait too long then the lynch against someone else will be rushed, especially because you need to clarify if anyone has a CC. And then there are replacements. This can easily take some days alone.

WHAT unCCed claim? WHY did you think I would claim one against your bullshit case? WHAT pressure did you add? L-2 and L-1 don't scare me none, and anyone can iso my games to find that out.

[James Brafin]

Yes. I am also townreading Nauci. Irrelaphant & you, and nullreading thor.

Since you null read me, I'd love you to answer my question to you;
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10122662
It would be more helpful to me than you skimming and claiming you're not 'backing down' from a position I'm not even fully sure what it is, nor who is asking you to back down from it.

@James - third time's the charm?

Gladly, as I've said, I was busy. If anyone else has a question or two, let me know.

Because he doesn't make a gut read, then defend it. He makes a post and votes me (i.e. accuses me of being scum) But when he's confronted, THEN he builds his case, which I just tore through in my previous post. Town doesn't have to make an accusation and then build a case. Town has a gut read, builds their case, then votes. That's the problem here; NK15 votes, then builds his case.

[James Brafin]

Oxy: Yes.

Nauci: I am afraid, good lady, that we are never going to get along.

Do you think that Nauci is the only person who scum hunts by first getting a gut read, and then building a case?

I'm not arguing as to effectiveness, but I think a lot of people probably build cases that way regardless of their alignment.

Or do you specifically believe that NK15 would not build a case that way as town?

This is the part you all seem to be missing. THERE IS NO GUT READ. He comes in with a full-fledged attack, then builds his case. once he does that, he automatically assumes everything that comes from my mouth is scummy, i.e. "you're scum, so everything you say is scummy." i.e. ORLYScum.

[James Brafin]

Am I making a bad assumption? Is scum more likely to come out of the gate arguing that the IC is abusing his position as a way of furthering his scum!IC win con?

Yes. It is easy to make a case about that. Very easy. You just need to discredit the advice.

And. let me ask you, WHY would scum try something that blatant.

[James Brafin]

Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

I'd also like to point out this is a loaded question. If my unvote does not help town more, aha, scum. If it does, however, I'm trying to look like town, aha, scum. Either way, I'm scum.

So let me put it this way: If I unvote, it does not help scum wincon, because it makes me look wishy-washy. But if I leave my vote or shift it to someone else, it does not help scum wincon, becasue there was no viable wagon to join onto and my Thor tunnel was getting scum!me nowhere.

So, what is the advantage for scum!me to unvote, rather than to vote someone else or leave my vote?

[James Brafin]

This is the part you all seem to be missing. THERE IS NO GUT READ. He comes in with a full-fledged attack, then builds his case. once he does that, he automatically assumes everything that comes from my mouth is scummy, i.e. "you're scum, so everything you say is scummy." i.e. ORLYScum.

So just to describe this without all caps to see if I understand it.

He attacks you (you claim he has no gut read to suspect you despite no evidence to support this stance).
You ask why is he attacking you.
He presents a case.
You call it scummy because he created the case after the attack (even though there is no reason town wouldn't do this, and indeed many town do - heck, I've done it in this game and you haven't mentioned me doing it yet. Frankly I think Oxy did it also)

Do I have that right?
Because it feels like even if you're onto something you're blowing it vastly out of proportion, yeah?

I'm not sure if I'm blowing it all out of proportion, but yeah, you have that right.
And I'd like to point out that his first post he comes in swinging with an accusation and a vote. There's no "Something's pinging me" or anything. So if I am using that term correctly, there cant have been a "gut read" because he didn't give himself the opportunity for one.

[James Brafin]

@everyone Here are some scummy things Flicker has posted so far. Please engage me on this read.

Spoiler:

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Great. Now more people vote for James? Rude.

I'll move back to voting James if that's the consensus lynch we can get, but for now I'd like to get teacher today and see what tomorrow brings. Unless something drastically changes, I'd rather not move my vote otherwise. In particular, I thought about sheeping Nauci and voting TGP, but teacher's also on TGP and I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

None of this makes sense from a town perspective. People are voting someone she is confident is scum, but she doesn't want to move her vote back there, but she considered moving her vote to someone completely different because sheeping.

A) I also read (and still do) Nauci as town.

Very last post called Nauci null and opined about the possibility of a Nauci scum team.

@NK15 you're telling me that THIS is less scummy than your one point about my vote/unvoting?

[James Brafin]

Feeling a little better about flicker after her defense. I may be raging at her a little because I' m really pissed off at NK15's bull (sorry flicker).
Still convinced NK15 is scum, and I'll go into that in a bit, but first, I'd like to try and relax a bit after being so pissed off for so long. Teacher, You've said a ton of stuff, but it feels to me like you've lacked commitment to anything in particular. Could you explain why? It seems to me like you're doing a lot of sheeping and not a ton of personal hunting.

[James Brafin]

I'm going to drop the huge quote walls because it's a headache to do.

The wiki is really outdated. And you should probably look at the whole part in the wiki, not just the first sentence.

From the wiki:

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a)

the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking

, and b)

the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

A) is null. But B) is very much true; there's no way you would be sheeping oxy if you didn't find his slot at least reasonably pro-town. So thanks; rather than blow my suspicions, you just confirmed them. You ARE chainsaw defending.

Yes, of course.

So this was okay:

I understand now that she is ill and uses this site as an emotional crutch, but I also don't need a reminder every post that she's ill. Not trying to be insulting or start a pity party, and I probably will get blasted for this, but I can't stand seeing it every post about her personal life with the constant need to swear. Swearing excessively just gives me the vibe that you don't know what you're talking about, or half heartedly trying with no thought/reason.

And this (sorry Nauci, but I really don't agree with your methods on a personal level here):

fuck you DDS don't police my language or tell me what to do with my time because of my health. Call it annoying if you want but fuck off with the "you should focus on your health" or "emotional crutch" patronizing language.

Do you want to explain yourself?

A) It is, you are attacking one of Thor's game strategy answers.B) This is not the first page, it is page 4; you said the first page.

I think you and I must mean very different things by IC strat. I thought it meant the stuff he can't lie about, such as site meta. But by your definition, yes, the IC strat has continued to further pages. I will concede that point with you.

Maybe a bit bold yes. However, posting frequency is not equal to being bad town.

Fair, but it doesn't explain how A) this is a crappy response; B) where this exreme, death-tunnel like confidence is coming from, and C) how you went from three people to "Oh, James must be lynched today and he's the only one I'm going to vote on." You won't engage with anyone else, you're just deathtunneling and hoping for a lynch.

1) My case isn't bullshit.
2)There was the possibility of a fakeclaim or a real claim.

A) Really? I find that laughable.
B) Scumslip. If you REALLY thought I was scum and were as sure of it as you were, you wouldn't even entertain the idea that I could make a fakeclaim. This proves you don't really believe that I'm the scum you say I am.

4) They don't scare you? I doubt that, you seem to be very defensive.

Would you like to explain how attacking your posts and pointing out the stupid things in them is "defensive?"
If anything, I've got YOU on the defensive here.

Not all vote changes make you look wishy-washy.

James is flip-flopping their votes and they give me a bad feeling.

Obviously mine did, and I was aware of it. So let me ask you, why would scum do something that they are aware makes them scummy?
I'd also like to point out that every time I make a seprate point in a different post, you completely drop that point. Why is that? Don't you think that if my case was really that bad, you would be considering all my points and not just ignoring the ones that are "ahem" decent?

[James Brafin]

Vote James Brafin again.
They already claimed Vanilla Townie.
Did you forget that they lied about their motivation and could not explain why they unvoted there with honesty?:

Spoiler:

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

random vote

Wrong answer.

UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

Thor as scum-lean

This does not add up.

The unvote is terrible.

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

random vote

Wrong answer.

UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

Thor as scum-lean

This does not add up.

You can have a scumlean and not be completely confident in it or confident enough in it to vote on it. You were just as confident in that Flicker case, but look where your vote landed.

So now we are just ignoring my refutations? That's nice.

[James Brafin]

Well that's nice. Whatever, I'm too busy for long wall posts with NK15 anyways. I'm exactly who I say I am, so HA, NK, you screwed up! No PR here!
Town is going to get itself killed at this rate. NK is for sure scum, I'm not sure how anyone else can't see it. But it will come out at the end of the day.

Null-reading flicker, thor, Meji,
Town reading Elephant, Nauci, Oxy. I think that his hammer war probably justified from a town standpoint.
Scumreading Teach, NK. I'm not satisfied with Teacher's responses at all, and I think I've made it pretty obvious that NK looked scummy.

The NK tonight will be between Oxy, Nauci, and Thor.

Have a nice day, and I hope town manages to pull through.