Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Miss Lane]

Hi. I'm Miss Lynch. I exclusively play in MafTiger in protest for how terrible it is. Did you know that there are several buttons that are completely invisible in MafTiger, and some (like the Q+ button) simply do not exist at all?

VOTE: alskadel

[Miss Lane]

Also, the font editing that makes votes stand out so much on other themes is not present at all on MafTiger. That vote was serious and I have skimmed enough to be somewhat caught up.

[Miss Lane]

I'm townreading a lot of the active posters, primarily.
Homura is coasting on the TSE attack.
Miss Lynch's opening posts are scummy, she "skims" the game and votes Aldusskel without any explanation.

My play might not match your expectations of my townplay, by the way - I'm a lot less serious about this game

What's scummy about that? Solid reasoning for Alk has already been given, I don't like how you're trying to frame "skimming the game" as something scummy to do.

[Miss Lane]

Additionally, I think explanations for votes are overrated and used far more often than warranted. While it's possible, even likely, that we don't see eye-to-eye on this matter, thinking that it's scummy seems to be a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

[Miss Lane]

Ok I might read this game now but I'm going to take one shot every time Hectic posted and it wasn't a VC, every time anyone mentions masons, and one shot any time CheekyTeeky says something that doesn't make sense to me.

You're going to get wasted awfully quick.

[Miss Lane]

Request to treat the witness as scum?


I'm going to assume

Solid reasoning for Alk has already been given

You're the only vote on Alk. Maybe I missed it, where's the "solid reasoning for Alk"? Quote please.

This isn't a rebuttal, at best an excuse. I think we both know that you know better than "just because someone isn't voting them now doesn't mean they've never voted them."

Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Lot of words in your posts but little reasoning. Maybe show me the "solid reasons for suspicion"? Who are these several players?

When you ask me questions like these while simultaneously trying to accuse me of being scum for skimming, it definitely doesn't put you in a good light.

I'll explain an Ask read when I'm ready.

[Miss Lane]

Also just because the reasons I provide aren't ones you like doesn't make any of it "little reasoning." I think it's a stretch to say I have lots of words, either.

[Miss Lane]

How do you ever convince people to lynch your scumreads then?

Are you implying I want you lynched right now? This post confuses me so much.

[Miss Lane]

How do you ever convince people to lynch your scumreads then?

Are you implying I want you lynched right now? This post confuses me so much.

This post makes absolutely no sense unless you assume that I want you lynched right now and the only purpose for my vote is to push for your immediate lynch.

[Miss Lane]

bruh you haven't even given reasons

and as for your question, it's more of a playstyle question about how you, as town, try to get your scumreads lynched if you're not into vote explanations
like what would you do if you wanted someone lynched but you were the only one voting them?

I already said I'll explain when I'm ready?

I like vote explanations when I need to get someone lynched.

[Miss Lane]

bruh you haven't even given reasons

and as for your question, it's more of a playstyle question about how you, as town, try to get your scumreads lynched if you're not into vote explanations
like what would you do if you wanted someone lynched but you were the only one voting them?

I already said I'll explain when I'm ready?

I like vote explanations when I need to get someone lynched.

Situationally. But if I was trying to get you lynched right now I'd definitely have explained.

[Miss Lane]

well then what's the purpose of your vote on me?

[Miss Lane]

well then by that logic shouldn't every player be trying to hide? VTs to look like masons, masons to avoid getting shot, scum to look town, etc.?

the fact that miss lynch's spelling of my name changes every time is kind of funny

well then what's the purpose of your vote on me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_deduction_game

[Miss Lane]

Not really relevant but here's my counter-wiki: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _Your_Vote

I think a certain understanding of the quoted article doesn't oppose my stance in the slightest and even supports it.

[Miss Lane]

Proposal/question: should we be posting townreads at all in this setup? Maybe we should only bring them up at L-1?

I was thinking about this earlier. Posting townreads shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't clearly bucket them into "strong" and "weak" townreads IMO.

I think this makes sense
and I think people should pay attention to this thought
MISS LYNCH MISS LYNCH MISS LYNCH

COUNTRY MUSIC SUCKS??

I don't mean it but idk you're skimming techniques.

I'm not certain what you're saying here.

==============

I have read the thread at this point, BTW. This morning I was a bit short on time and I read a couple pages, but skimmed others. Prior to responding to anyone tonight, however, I had read the entire thread. I wasn't expecting everyone to make a deal out of the way I informed everyone I was caught up on the current events if my responses displayed an understanding. I was wrong.

[Miss Lane]

Thor was my IC in one of my first newbie games.

[Miss Lane]

This isn't a rebuttal, at best an excuse. I think we both know that you know better than "just because someone isn't voting them now doesn't mean they've never voted them."

I'm confused by what you are saying in this post. Can you reiterate?

Auro tries to accuse me of voting for Asduck with no previously stated reasoning, and backs up his claim by saying that no one is currently voting Askud. My response to him is that this looks like pointlessly flinging shit in my direction. Someone had previously stated reasoning for voting Asgard while doing so, and (as far as I'm aware) solely unvoted due to said player finding a more appealing reason to vote elsewhere. So not only is his argument theoretically irrelevant to the point that he's trying to reach, it is practically so as well. He should know significantly better than this. To me it looks like he's trying to find players that he can get away with scum reading and he doesn't want to back off of his stance because it draws negative attention in his direction if he can get away with saying things that seem like they're relevant but aren't.

[Miss Lane]

Additionally, I think explanations for votes are overrated and used far more often than warranted. While it's possible, even likely, that we don't see eye-to-eye on this matter, thinking that it's scummy seems to be a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Which players fit this criteria?

Klick, woodchuck, Asgor, chemist

[Miss Lane]

Auro tries to accuse me of voting for Asduck with no previously stated reasoning, and backs up his claim by saying that no one is currently voting Askud. My response to him is that this looks like pointlessly flinging shit in my direction.

You're the only vote on Alk.

Maybe I missed it, where's the "solid reasoning for Alk"? Quote please.

Miss Lynch, do you still stand by your response that this looks like "pointlessly flinging shit" in your direction?

I think there's definitely a point to it. It's possible I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you're aware of a few things:

1. Mafia team doesn't daytalk
2. There are no nights.
1 + 2 = 3 there is no communication between the mafia players

4. An important part of mafia is sorting, and sometimes, in order to do that, it is a good idea to try and entice other players to do things by taking stances or moving votes or saying things that you might expect someone to react to a certain way as one alignment, but differently as another. Especially in a game where scum have no communication
5. A good way to make other players aware of what a certain player is doing, to remove any value from the actions of that player, to negate any nuance in a certain amount of play, to make the game difficult for town is to relentlessly ask "why." To unendingly bring up points which will very likely bring very little to any argument as to why that player is scum or should be lynched. To continuously remind other players that certain people are trying to do things that are not to be taken at face value.


Multiple times throughout the game I have pointed you in the direction you can look if you'd like to find the reasoning for my vote. Several times I've made it blatantly clear I have no intention of explaining it right now. I think you'd have a very hard time making an argument for my immediate lynch due to voting without an immediate explanation. I think your current train of questioning leads absolutely nowhere and you know it. If the statement before this one isn't true, please tell me where you do expect for it to lead. If you still are completely incapable of finding the long list of clues I've left you as to how you can find part of why I voted the way I voted, you will have to wait for the others. As it is, you have likely already ruined anything I trying to almost in its entirety. If, up until this point, I've been completely wrong about you and you fail to have the depth of understanding of mafia I had come to expect from you, I guess I will have learned the hard way.

[Miss Lane]

I would like to see a defense of any purpose you can assign to your line of questioning other than the conclusion I have reached, Auro. Unless your argument is that it is all pointless, and you ask for the sake of asking. Then I'd just like you to acknowledge that and we'll both be on our ways.

[Miss Lane]

pedit: jk not gonna read these 2 posts

I see that I"ve returned to form.

[Miss Lane]

isn't it weird that miss lynch is attacking auro way more than the person she's voting for

You should read the posts you're criticizing.

what does my decision to post without reading the 2 posts that popped up in my preview have to do with your "form"?

It was an inside joke. Sorry.

[Miss Lane]

isn't it weird that miss lynch is attacking auro way more than the person she's voting for

Ironically, if you'd read the posts you were criticizing, you wouldn't make this post.

[Miss Lane]

Well, what's your read on Auro?

Where do you expect this information to lead you?
Do you expect to draw some conclusion as to my alignment? I doubt it. If you think this is the purpose, please, what response from me would result in what read?
Or are you simply questioning everything at face value simply because you can?

[Miss Lane]

Just give me one. Please. I want one reason for one of your posts. One reason that the post is actually productive, and not just some reactionary question because you play the game on auto-pilot. Just give me one snippet that displays you've put even the slightest amount of thought into the questions you ask.

[Miss Lane]

I'm starved for faith here, give me some reason to believe you're worth my time.

[Miss Lane]

Telling you what response what result in what read defeats the purpose of asking the question.

In the same way, telling you what I'm doing defeats the purpose of doing what I'm doing.

I don't understand what is difficult about this.

[Miss Lane]

Like, I think I made it apparent I care naught in what your read of me is when I refused to respond amiably to the first question you asked.

[Miss Lane]

So I'm scummy because I couldn't find said reasoning and asked you to please quote it because I seem to have missed it?
I'm not relentlessly asking "why", I'm asking "what"; since you claimed there were solid reasons/cases blah blah.

You repeatedly bringing up the things that I'm doing is scummy. Call it whatever you'd like.

I expected it to lead to you quoting said cases and me saying "Oh yeah, okay". Right now with my line of questioning I'm expecting you to either back down on your push of me (and by this I mean the specific attacks you made on me), or attempt to justify it more.

You and me being on the same page about a certain player only matters if I'm trying to get you on the same page as me about that player or if I'm trying to get you to read me a specific way. Given that I've already made it clear that I don't care how you read me or whether or not you're on the same page as me about that specific player at this point in time, I don't understand why you expect any sort of response here.

[Miss Lane]

I expected it to lead to you quoting said cases and me saying "Oh yeah, okay". Right now with my line of questioning I'm expecting you to either back down on your push of me (and by this I mean the specific attacks you made on me), or attempt to justify it more.

I would have thought that you would be able to deduce the fact that I don't care about your stance on me or your stance on the player in question considering I haven't shared this information. If I wanted you on the same page as me, I'd ask you to be on the same page as me. Or I would respond amiably when you asked me for information that would help you get on the same page as me.

[Miss Lane]

Just give me one. Please. I want one reason for one of your posts. One reason that the post is actually productive, and not just some reactionary question because you play the game on auto-pilot. Just give me one snippet that displays you've put even the slightest amount of thought into the questions you ask.

I'm starved for faith here, give me some reason to believe you're worth my time.

Can you tone down the hostility? It's fine if you think I'm scum, but please don't act like I'm brainless.

Ok. Stop asking stupid questions that have already been answered.

[Miss Lane]

If you don't care about Auro's stance on you or me, then why keep replying to him?

Because that has a worse reaction than responding to him does. At least in the past, ignoring players that questioned everything I did lead only to those players throwing a fits in the thread about how they're ignored, and the same (if not worse) negative response resulted to the point where anything I might have been doing before was ruined by the egos of players who'd rather ask a question when they don't know something than just watch and see if anything worthwhile happens. At least if I respond to him and repeat the same thing over and over again, he remains at least somewhat appeased and there is hope that eventually he'll shut up and allow himself to read the thread and ask the questions: "What purpose does me asking a question here serve? Could allowing this to play out result in a better game state for town through one way or another? What do I lose by allowing this person to do what they're doing? What do I gain by immediately interrupting everything and calling attention to my own lack of understanding?" At this point there is hope that the game might continue in a way that is more beneficial than the other method.

[Miss Lane]

I would like to see a defense of any purpose you can assign to your line of questioning other than the conclusion I have reached, Auro. Unless your argument is that it is all pointless, and you ask for the sake of asking. Then I'd just like you to acknowledge that and we'll both be on our ways.

How I read your posting:
"Stop questioning me because I said I won't respond amicably to any of your questions! And stop scumreading me as well! Here are a ton of clues which tell you why I'm acting this way, but I also think you're scummy, and don't question me about that either. Anyone who questions me is stupid."

If you read my posts that way, feel free to continue to do so, but this isn't a response, it's a defensive attempt to spit back at me because I called you out for playing without thinking.

[Miss Lane]

@people who played with Miss Lynch before, is she usually like this as town?

It would surprise me if you hadn't already looked at my account and seen that I've played in a total of one other game before. Considering you seemed to like stats, I think both of us know that 1 game isn't a large enough sample size, even if you could achieve both scum and town play in one game, but conveniently I was an SK in that game. This question, therefore, serves absolutely no purpose.

Respectfully request you back off and stop questioning everything I do just because you can and this whole debacle will end.

[Miss Lane]

Multiple times throughout the game I have pointed you in the direction you can look if you'd like to find the reasoning for my vote. Several times I've made it blatantly clear I have no intention of explaining it right now. I think you'd have a very hard time making an argument for my immediate lynch due to voting without an immediate explanation. I think your current train of questioning leads absolutely nowhere and you know it. If the statement before this one isn't true, please tell me where you do expect for it to lead. If you still are completely incapable of finding the long list of clues I've left you as to how you can find part of why I voted the way I voted, you will have to wait for the others. As it is, you have likely already ruined anything I trying to almost in its entirety. If, up until this point, I've been completely wrong about you and you fail to have the depth of understanding of mafia I had come to expect from you, I guess I will have learned the hard way.

What are you hoping to gain from this? It's not likely to get you anything and will cause more damage to what you're trying to do than just leaving it alone.

I've tried leaving it alone before. Multiple times. It always ends about as poorly as this, likely worse, depending on how far he pushes this.

[Miss Lane]

I think the Alduskel vs. Miss Lynch interaction has an SvT look and I hope soberpops can sort which side when she is done chastising drunkpops's staying up late

nah we're both masons, this is an elaborate distancing tactic


pedit: D&D mafia?

chkflip ran some 40p theme game with a cult themed on D&D. the game title wasn't D&D i can't remember what it was.

Mainstream Mafia II: D&D Edition

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81273

I was a backup SK.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch why did you decide to play multiple games on the same alt instead of making a new one?

Because I like this alt and it's more obscure than my other alts. Also because I don't really hide who I am. The only purpose to playing under alts is to avoid people who would try and meta me without putting any effort into it. If you know who I am, you're either capable of meta-ing me, or you've paid enough attention to my previous game to know who I am. Either way, it's an easy way to refute players who would assign a read to me off of some half-assed skimming. Basically it's an antidote to the type of mafia that really bugs me.

[Miss Lane]

I'm too impulsive, rash, and I have a bit of a temper, even though I think the way that I play is generally pretty close to optimal.

Exactly.

And I have difficulty not responding to things, and when it's proven to be just as bad for me to not respond as it is for me to respond, I'll take responding each and every day.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch stop straying out of Ankrange when what I really need is for Yshtola to get out of Ankrange


aside from like not knowing how much Ank would be willing to mess with my mind about lying about her alts

Did you think I was Ank?

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch, I think you should realize that you're increasing the toxicity of this game, and taking a step back might help.

It takes two to get tangled. I've both of you multiple times to stop doing what you're doing, and I have yet to get a straight answer that defends your actions. I resent the implication that the fact that this continues to rise is solely my fault, especially due to the fact that most of the response from Auro has been defensive venom and your responses have been deflective at best.

From my cultural understanding of people, the vital point at taking a stand is right now. If I admit fault and back down, I allow room for more nonsensical questioning of my play in the future, whereas if I continue my course of action and allow other players to understand the level to which I will make it difficult for them to do things that are anti-town like make the moves that have been made against me, I believe I can expect the rest of this game to go increasingly smoothly. Understand that I have no intention in rising in toxicity, nor am I in any sort of uncontrollable rage. I expect you to follow Auro's suit and stop posting for a bit, and I don't particularly intend to post much more at the moment either. I also very much expect both of you to return to the thread, realize that the arguments you were defending were a bit silly and you aren't as completely attached to them at said future point in time as you are right now, and the game can continue without further unnecessary provocation, as I very much expect both of you to ask more ... pointed? questions in the future.

[Miss Lane]

I never thought you were Ank, sry don't be butthurt Cephrir/maybenotCephrir

Oh ok. Thanks.

Have a good night, by the way.

[Miss Lane]

Also this is a reminder that this is just a game and I don't think either of the people I'm arguing with are stupid. I think they've both made mistakes and are trying to justify the mistakes rather than simply letting them go. I like (at least what I've seen of) both Auro and Asphodel, I just disagree with the way they responded to certain things in the game and may or may not think some of them may or may not be scum.

[Miss Lane]

Ok. That is all. Good night, all.

[Miss Lane]

Auro has been defensive venom

:O

{Lot of (scummy?) words with little substance} is still where I'm at regarding her, I'm finding it difficult to search for meaning in her posts and think she's a fine lynch.

Pretending you didn't post this?

I would like to see a defense of any purpose you can assign to your line of questioning other than the conclusion I have reached, Auro. Unless your argument is that it is all pointless, and you ask for the sake of asking. Then I'd just like you to acknowledge that and we'll both be on our ways.

How I read your posting:
"Stop questioning me because I said I won't respond amicably to any of your questions! And stop scumreading me as well! Here are a ton of clues which tell you why I'm acting this way, but I also think you're scummy, and don't question me about that either. Anyone who questions me is stupid."

[Miss Lane]

Like your counter point to me saying you're asking stupid questions without purpose is that I'm doing things without purpose, which is a remarkably elementary retort.

I have difficulty legitimately believing you, as town, think that any player short of incredible takes the stances I do as scum.

[Miss Lane]

I'll deal with you more in the morning. I don't know why you insist on giving me bullshit to anguish about right before I go to sleep, though.

[Miss Lane]

But to be honest I have difficulty you're as completely dense as scum as you are here. So you must understand the dilemma I'm in. Why is it so fucking difficult to give someone else space to try to read the game without throwing tantrums and insisting immediate and complete answers to every question that crosses your mind?

[Miss Lane]

Like I could sort you if you'd fuck off for a solid 12 hours and do something other than hound me to answer your insecurities.

[Miss Lane]

Eh. Maybe I'm being picky, but request that in that period you also interact with other players.

[Miss Lane]

And in case anyone doubts the accuracy of my assessment of Auro's approach to this game, I'd like to point out that I had posted a grand total of 79 words before Auro asked a question I had already answered and displayed he has no interest in actually attempting to read to the entirety or understand for himself what anyone else is doing past what is explained to him openly and blatantly.

Random vote, or serious?
If serious, why?

Sorry, didn't read properly. But I'd still like an explanation

[Miss Lane]

is roleplaying really necessary

I can't tell if the 3 players you named are your townreads or scumreads

From what she said, could be either; just that there's something from those 3 to sort from.

But to be honest I have difficulty you're as completely dense as scum as you are here. So you must understand the dilemma I'm in. Why is it so fucking difficult to give someone else space to try to read the game without throwing tantrums and insisting immediate and complete answers to every question that crosses your mind?

Am

[Was] I

the one

throwing tantrums though?

Yes.

[Miss Lane]

PEdit: Hello!
I'm not interested in those four today for a combination of reading them as town and liking how they're influencing the gamestate.
I got pretty strong town vibes off of Yshtola's Post 92 and like where she's going with things in general. With Auro I don't really have anything specific off the top of my head, but I feel like he's pushing this game in the right direction. If he keeps doing what he's doing I feel like it will benefit town in the long run, even if he winds up having a scum Role PM.

Is this post expressive of your current feelings towards the game or are you explicitly answering only the question asked?

[Miss Lane]

Before questions, I'd like to hear your opinions on reading the game first.

Auro continues to exhibit a line of anti-town questioning.

[Miss Lane]

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Up until this post the only scumread you've expressed is Alduskkel.

Hypocrisy Is Not A Scumtell

Irrelevant, but not hypocrisy. I haven't stated who I do and do not find scummy at this stage in the game, he has. I have at this point at the very least implied I find other people scummy. I simply chose to ignore it when Klick figured it was more important to make irrelevant stabs at me because they can't manage to read and understand a couple paragraphs completely vise responding to them.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch are you scumreading Auro?

I'm torn on them.

[Miss Lane]

Before questions, I'd like to hear your opinions on reading the game first.

Auro continues to exhibit a line of anti-town questioning.

Yeah no it's not anti-town to try making someone more readable, fresh thoughts on entering the thread are always useful.

That's an excuse at best.

Look, how about you take your own advice, ignore my slot and play the game?

I'm being legitimately conversational about items of interest to me and pushing what I think might be a somewhat decent lynch and now you're trying to get me to find someone else?

I asked you to ignore my slot because you're insisting on asking questions with no purpose other than to sate your ego or remove any possible nuance from the game, you asking me to ignore your slot because I'm pushing you is completely different.

[Miss Lane]

Actually.

Please explain how my comment was

not

playing the game.

[Miss Lane]

I dislike having to push you.

You're making a lot of comments about how you might push something but I have yet to see you do anything that requires taking a legitimate stance yet.

[Miss Lane]

When given the choice between Auro and Albusdumbledore, which would you push?

What if you had to lynch one of them right now?

[Miss Lane]

No clue on the flavor but it could be that she was remarking that we were aligned with each other but not necessarily certain what that alignment is.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch is overreacting. Auro has a perfectly reasonable response to what she's been posting

I'm curious about why Miss Lynch hasn't reacted to this.

Why?

[Miss Lane]

I think it's pretty clear I was overreacting. I'm just not sure how to react in a manner that allows me to make the plays and observe player's reactions to it without having so much attention drawn to everything I do that anything I might have been going for is lost by shear familiarity.

[Miss Lane]

I also don't necessarily disagree with the fact that the way you reacted is reasonable or even unexpected - I actually very much expect it, especially from players who may or may not be putting a whole lot of thought into the way the things they do affect the game at this moment in time (which is not something I particularly expect from any player at this early in day one). It just majorly fucks with anything I'm trying to do.

[Miss Lane]

I don't think you legitimately scumread me

[Miss Lane]

I don't think you legitimately scumread me

At least not in any meaningful way. You scum reading me also has little to do with what I was frustrated with.

[Miss Lane]

Err.... I don't know that I was planning on talking about this this early, but since other players seem to be at standstill, I'll share what I have since it doesn't seem to be all that large of a deal anyways. The way I saw it at the time there were four major groups of people. At least one of them was likely scum. It goes a bit like this: TSE defended Auro. Those are groups one and two. I think TSE has the highest likelihood of any player in this game to be town, by the way, so I don't think this contains scum. Players voting for TSE seemed a bit strange to me, because TSE seems to have a solid town play this game. Players reacting to those votes by voting players voting TSE also seemed kind of strange because I guess I could see where voting TSE could be acceptable. Without saying too much, I wanted to vote Alkaline since he was in the group most likely in my opinion to contain scum so that I could see who felt strongly about what position they held. But then the game became about me placing votes and explaining everything I did which is very much counter to anything I was doing.

[Miss Lane]

Like if I spend the whole time talking about why I voted Algy, it takes any pressure off of any scum to figure out why I voted Albany because I've already discussed it. IDK how to explain it and it sounds super stupid when I do, but I did now.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch, assuming all actual groups (Masons, VTs, Scum) are playing properly, the groups you notice in game will be a mixture of these groups.
You're going into like 4-level associations (Auro<-defended by TSE<-Attacked by XYZ<-Attacked by ABC), each link in that chain becomes weaker and weaker.
It's easiest if you simply vote for people with individual scum equity and wait for scumflips before associative hunting / grouping.
Not being transparent in your thoughts make it harder for others to develop a read on you... since it's not difficult for scum to take random stances and refuse to explain them, while the nuances in town stances help recognize town.

I agree with everything you say here, but with respect it does help to find scum by seeing if there is irrational support for a player defended, regardless of whether or not the link between two said players necessarily contains scum.

Additionally, I am very unconcerned with my ability to town side without the help of anyone else if necessary, this is easily one of my greatest strengths, in my opinion.

[Miss Lane]

pressure off of any scum to figure out why I voted Albany

Why would scum bother, if no one's joining you? It's kind of more useful to present your case, get people to sheep it, and then watch scum react to it, no?

Not presenting a case vs presenting a case is part of why it's a sorting mechanism. If I give a valid reason as to why I think Albion should be lynched, then anyone voting with me is either merely giving me a shot or thinks I have a bit of a case. But if my Albacore vote contains nothing of the sort, then any votes that join me on voting him have their own reasons for voting him. It's my own way of encouraging people to come out of the closet on certain reads they might be holding. It also gives scum a chance to vote for him, because my vote gives his wagon more equity and indicates that town might be more willing to vote him than they previously thought. An influx of votes on Alfred with little to no explanation would quickly indicate he is likely town.

[Miss Lane]

Somewhat.

[Miss Lane]

I like Sujimi and Rhul.

[Miss Lane]

Wait Miss Lynch did you watch Fringe

that show has a schtick about calling someone whose name starts with an "A" a different name every time
I just now made the connection because Asterisk is one of the botched names that was used.

Not Fringe but there is a relatively popular show (or maybe a couple) that use this gimmick that I was semi-referencing.

Also I play Legends of Runeterra as well.

[Miss Lane]

I didn’t read ML’s posts at all and can tell it’s probably scum Motivated

Lulwut

recommend at the very least

skimming

my posts.

[Miss Lane]

575 and on are 100% readable.

[Miss Lane]

Woodchuck seems intent on making himself seem like a favorable lynch.

[Miss Lane]

I'm pretty sure ML and Ceph were both in D&D mafia separately but I haven't fact checked that

I wanna Town read you for this but at the same time it isn’t alignment indicative.
So I’ll pass.
Your still Null.

Why would you town read him for that?

[Miss Lane]

I'm pretty sure ML and Ceph were both in D&D mafia separately but I haven't fact checked that

I wanna Town read you for this but at the same time it isn’t alignment indicative.
So I’ll pass.
Your still Null.

Why would you town read him for that?

Because we shared a similar thought.

His thought had nothing to do with alignment though.

If you and I both thought that 2+2=4, would you say I was more likely to be town?

[Miss Lane]

I get it.

Somehow I thought he said "it isn't alignment indicative"

and also "you're null" vise scum, which is how I assumed he'd been reading him solely due to the fact that I've been scum reading chemist. Understand

srry

[Miss Lane]

but at the same time it isn’t alignment indicative.

I get it.

Somehow I

thought

he said "

it isn't alignment indicative

"

and

also "you're null" vise scum, which is how I assumed he'd been reading him solely due to the fact that I've been scum reading chemist. Understand

srry

:/
Ima let you re-read your post and you tell me what’s wrong with it.

Or.... you can tell me what's right about it?

[Miss Lane]

Like re-read the whole thing beginning to end and it might make a little more sense.

[Miss Lane]

I'm not saying you didn't say what you said. I'm saying I thought you previously had him at a scum tell, so the post was indicating you thought he was more towny despite it being NAI. I looked back through your posts and recognized the only reason I thought you were scum reading him is that I was scum reading him.

[Miss Lane]

I'm not saying you didn't say what you said. I'm saying I thought you previously had him at a scum tell, so the post was indicating you thought he was more towny despite it being NAI. I looked back through your posts and recognized the only reason I thought you were scum reading him is that I was scum reading him.

I didn’t know you were until you brought it up.
I just remember Chemist voting me and I think it was Auro calling his post out and I was like “Nah, that’s Chemist. It’s Null for him to do that”

Fair enough. I fucked up earlier and misread. srry.

[Miss Lane]

I think we should lynch one of Pops/ML tomorrow.

Trying to set up lynches like this on day 1 is terrible on multiple levels, even just theoretically speaking.

I'm not even talking within the confines of this game, because responding to someone who hasn't even taken the time to read your posts is an exercise in futility.

[Miss Lane]

Ok I think Auro, Egix, Chemist, TSE and maybe pops are town.

Did you just pick names at random for this list?

[Miss Lane]

It sucks that the towniest people happen to be Masons... Town should be putting in more effort.

Request clarification on this

[Miss Lane]

I'm catching up, but yeah she's leaning that direction.

[Miss Lane]

Oh.

She is lol.

[Miss Lane]

Why shoot herself, though?

[Miss Lane]

VOTE: Auro

Your ISO doesn't look good WRT to cheeky.

Also her shooting herself after voting pops is almost certainly a WIFOM move, but it doesn't look good that it happened right after you said you wanted to gladiate pops

[Miss Lane]

Oh. Got it.

[Miss Lane]

What?

[Miss Lane]

Also, why ask TSE anything about me?

[Miss Lane]

VOTE: ML

Probably scum.
Strong player that can manipulate later if scum.

You voting me because I did well as scum in the only game where you were even close to paying attention after not reading my posts at all this game simply reflects on the incompetence with which you approach mafia.

[Miss Lane]

I remembered liking her early posts, I checked her ISO - I don't find them as towny as I found them then, and can't recall why I did. However, I do like her questions and stances, so, eh.

Do you find it strange that a shot happened when she appeared?

I noticed that. But I also felt that scum could lurk and take shots - for example, I recall CheekyTeeky as being a much more active player than she is this game.

You believe I'd say this if I was SvS with Cheeky?

Yes.

Actually I expect that sort of post from a player who is playing scum with another player. It's remarkably common, IMO, to see scum tell each other how they feel about each other in the thread, especially in a game w/o day talk, and you continually remind cheeky throughout the game that you think she's looking scummy without ever really applying any direct pressure - it's all indirect comments. In addition, you dropped an RVS vote on cheeky and RVS pushed her for a bit, which is another thing that I've noticed scum tend to do frequently as it is one of the more comfortable RVS moves for them and at least in the mind of a scum player, it makes you feel as if you're creating some form of virtual distance between you too.

[Miss Lane]

Your interactions with Cheeky have been textbook scum and that's my strongest reason for thinking you're likely scum this game, IMO.

I'm definitely willing to talk about lynching other players with you if you'd like, however. Klick and Egix are both high on my radar.

[Miss Lane]

You caught my scum agenda of defending you when others want you dead, Miss Lynch. Congratulations!

This is called White Knighting. Also pocketing. You pretending like this is some ridiculous thing for scum to do is just another argument for why you'd likely do it as scum.

[Miss Lane]

You caught my scum agenda of defending you when others want you dead, Miss Lynch. Congratulations!

This is called White Knighting. Also pocketing. You pretending like this is some ridiculous thing for scum to do is just another argument for why you'd likely do it as scum.

In this scenario, if I do get lynched you get town cred for defending town. If I don't, you can try and sway me using the argument you're using right now.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch, if you lynch me and I flip town, will you follow my desired lynch(es) in the following days?

I don't feel confident enough in your reads or your lynch to follow you after lynch blindly or even because I was so ridiculously wrong on you that I'll go somewhere else later.

I definitely don't condone lynching you in the next 4 days before we've had a reasonable amount of time to catch up from all the slaughter that's happened in the past 24 hours, barring some outlying circumstance.

[Miss Lane]

I tend to oppose sheeping anything, to be honest, unless I'm so confident in someone's lynch that I'll follow them afterwards if I'm wrong, or I'm so confident in someone's reads that I'll follow them afterwards if they're town.

[Miss Lane]

i dont remember /in to this game what

yeah you /outed lol

VOTE: Homura
because rebellion was a mistake

VOTE: Chemist

this is my easy strat to clear myself as a VT is it working

i dunno can a goon shoot him to check please?

Scumpost.

Hello everybody, my name is Y'shtola Rhul. I am here as an observer and a scholar to the art of mafia.

I will be on standby if needed.

Awkward tone.

Chemist what's your setup familiarity?

with this one?

I read the wiki page

What's the purpose of this question? You're veering dangerously close to an RQS scumtell which seems to be becoming a thing in recent meta.

This guy said he will be standby if needed.
He didn’t say he’s going to always continually lurk.

Cool we're vibing. TSE is currently my strongest town read.

VOTE: Aldus

I got nothing to do, so I'll jump on.

VOTE: CheekyTreeky

Hmm. To omgus or not to omgus?

VOTE: Woodchuck

Ok I want to lynch in {Wood, Aldus, Klick} at this point.

I wanna day from these.
Klick is Town
Chemist is mentioned but I’m not entirely sure if I want to lock them yet.

Why is Klick town?

[Miss Lane]

... wow. You should read White Flag, starting D4. You remind me a lot of Dongempire.
At least he agreed to sheep my correct read if I flipped town.

I'm not going to read that and it seems to me as if you're trying to throw shade without being direct about it, and I don't think that particularly helps anyone else here.

[Miss Lane]

It surprises me how little Chemist is mentioned as a likely scum candidate.

[Miss Lane]

I'm going to blame drunk pops and ML's ego for blowing up the thread. I'm probably not missing anything since Wood STILL hasn't posted.

Makes me think ML is indeed their buddy here.
“ego”

This is, again, not relevant to the game.

[Miss Lane]

pops, I think, is at least 50% cleared.

I think Cheeky takes the shot on her right then and there and then if she's right, she claims scum set her up and she gets away with it, if she's wrong she dies. It was beginning to look like pops was gonna death tunnel her regardless of flip anyways.

[Miss Lane]

I'm going to blame drunk pops and ML's ego for blowing up the thread. I'm probably not missing anything since Wood STILL hasn't posted.

Makes me think ML is indeed their buddy here.
“ego”

This is, again, not relevant to the game.

How’s it not relevant?

What does CT's opinion of my "ego" have to do with my alignment?

[Miss Lane]

Yeah this slot needs to die.

VOTE: ML

It’s probably this, Pops and Suji.

Your reads are so good. Did you push Egix to lynch, too?

[Miss Lane]

TSE, ML isn't scum, they're just "bad town"

There’s no such thing as ML being bad Town.
They are a strong player and should know better.

Know better than what?

[Miss Lane]

It surprises me how little Chemist is mentioned as a likely scum candidate.

Why bring up Chemist?

Chemist is arguably one of the scummiest players in the game but no one has mentioned him much at all.

[Miss Lane]

I see. Your solve is based on Aluminum being confirmed Mason.

[Miss Lane]

Miss Lynch ignores the fact that the timing of Cheeky's woodchuck slot (it was 99% her, or even otherwise, the shot itself no matter who took it) had no relation to the gamestate at the time. Cheeky simply took shots when she thought someone was Mason.

1. You're assuming that every shot was Cheeky and using that to excuse your garbage argument.
2. Your argument is that Cheeky was only capable of taking shots off-the-cuff because one of her shots was off-the-cuff.

[Miss Lane]

Yeah this slot needs to die.

VOTE: ML

It’s probably this, Pops and Suji.

Your reads are so good. Did you push Egix to lynch, too?

Didn't you just name Klick and Egix as great candidates for scum just a page ago?

Like no one's to blame for Egix's lynch. Egix being unreadable because of his poor effort at playing the game when he actually can is totally on him.

Fair

[Miss Lane]

TSE, ML isn't scum, they're just "bad town"

There’s no such thing as ML being bad Town.
They are a strong player and should know better.

Know better than what?

Strong Players like you think better as Town.

What should I have thought better?

[Miss Lane]

I'm going to blame drunk pops and ML's ego for blowing up the thread. I'm probably not missing anything since Wood STILL hasn't posted.

Makes me think ML is indeed their buddy here.
“ego”

This is, again, not relevant to the game.

How’s it not relevant?

What does CT's opinion of my "ego" have to do with my alignment?

Cheeky flipped scum.
They mentioned your “ego” without explanation.

So how about I ask you a question.
What do YOU think Cheeky meant by your ego?

Cheeky was talking about how I blew up the thread by posting a lot trying to get Auro to stop posting. That is the explanation. I don't know how you could interpret that any other way.

[Miss Lane]

It surprises me how little Chemist is mentioned as a likely scum candidate.

Why bring up Chemist?

Chemist is arguably one of the scummiest players in the game but no one has mentioned him much at all.

Ok then.
If you think he’s scummy.
Give me a case on him.
And if you truly felt this way.
Why place a vote on Auro?

How many times this game have you listed other likely scum candidates while you put your vote somewhere else?

I can count for you, if you won't.

[Miss Lane]

Chemist is arguably one of the scummiest players in the game but no one has mentioned him much at all.

I dislike this kind of stream of consciousness posting. I'd say taking notes and posting them at the *end* is a less noisy and more productive.

Sure. Sorry. I'll keep it to a minimum.

[Miss Lane]

I see. Your solve is based on Aluminum being confirmed Mason.

Not all of it.
But since you brought it up.
Before they flipped Mason why did you scum read them?

Somewhat at first, not really at the end. I didn't know they flipped mason yet.

And then why did you vote them?

If you read my posts, you would know why. I've explained that a long time ago.

[Miss Lane]

All those correct shots seems difficult to peace together for Cheeky

She seems like the only one with the guts to do that. Cheeky as a scum player prolly found that a lot more fun than dayplay.

Right. The same guts that would cause her to do the thing that I just said she likely did.

You arguing that because she took a couple random shots into nowhere means she will take every shot into nowhere is baseless and ridiculous.

[Miss Lane]

Town:
Myself
Auro
Klick
CSF

Scum: (top Lowest, Bottom Highest)
Chemist
Pops
Suji
ML
Egix

This reads list is almost as random as Cheeky's

[Miss Lane]

Town:
Myself
Auro
Klick
CSF

Scum: (top Lowest, Bottom Highest)
Chemist
Pops
Suji
ML
Egix

Chemist, Egix, Suji I think I agree with

I'm not really sold on Klick town.

I don't think Pops is SvS with CT, there were a couple of posts from CT that read as discrediting towards Pops. ML's tone seemed towny to me earlier and I'm not really seeing why ML had to have taken the shot on Aldus earlier.

ML had a bad vote.
Even as scum ML has a Townie Vibe.

Reminder that you have never played with me as groupscum before.

Reminder that you have only played with me pushing a town agenda.

[Miss Lane]

I just would expect more from you.
You vote the Mason
Mention you would vote Egix’s wagon but don’t
Your content this game has been deadline Normal for you without any indication of town.
And your actions seem scummy.
You know what they say.
Actions speak louder then words.

If you read why I voted Alderaan, you wouldn't view it the same way you do.

[Miss Lane]

Cheeky was talking about how I blew up the thread by posting a lot trying to get Auro to stop posting. That is the explanation. I don't know how you could interpret that any other way.

Did she mention that at all?

As a matter of fact, she did:

I'm going to blame drunk pops and

ML's ego for blowing up the thread

. I'm probably not missing anything since Wood STILL hasn't posted.

And wouldn’t that mean Auro is more Town by that from your POV?

Why would that mean that?

[Miss Lane]

Chemist is arguably one of the scummiest players in the game but no one has mentioned him much at all.

I dislike this kind of stream of consciousness posting. I'd say taking notes and posting them at the *end* is a less noisy and more productive.

It surprises me how little Chemist is mentioned as a likely scum candidate.

Why bring up Chemist?

Chemist is arguably one of the scummiest players in the game but no one has mentioned him much at all.

Ok then.
If you think he’s scummy.
Give me a case on him.
And if you truly felt this way.
Why place a vote on Auro?

How many times this game have you listed other likely scum candidates while you put your vote somewhere else?

I can count for you, if you won't.

Never.
I always voted who I feel is most scum or is who’s best for PoV.

Bet:

Spoiler:

I think we should lynch one of Pops/ML tomorrow.
VOTE: Egix

Ok I think maybe pops are town.

this is decidedly not town!Cheeky meta

I think Pops is scum.

Is this flipless? Or something?
Why is it Day 3?
Who got lynched Day 1?

VOTE: Pops

Your scum.
Did.


It’s you, Egix, ML and someone else.

Miss Lynch could be a Mislynch.
I'm simply *way* more confident in Pops.

I was thinking Pops up until the Cheeky Flip.
Now I think it’s Egix and ML with ML as my priority lynch.

I count 4 times.

Fuck off.

[Miss Lane]

I just would expect more from you.
You vote the Mason
Mention you would vote Egix’s wagon but don’t
Your content this game has been deadline Normal for you without any indication of town.
And your actions seem scummy.
You know what they say.
Actions speak louder then words.

If you read why I voted Alderaan, you wouldn't view it the same way you do.

Show me then.
Tell me what page.

Find it.

[Miss Lane]

@Ml
Still doesn’t explain why you vote Auto over Chemist

He's higher priority.

And I still have no case on Chemist from you.

I have no intention of casing a player for someone who refuses to read my posts and yet is trying to push me as scum regardless.

[Miss Lane]

Cheeky was talking about how I blew up the thread by posting a lot trying to get Auro to stop posting. That is the explanation. I don't know how you could interpret that any other way.

Did she mention that at all?

As a matter of fact, she did:

I'm going to blame drunk pops and

ML's ego for blowing up the thread

. I'm probably not missing anything since Wood STILL hasn't posted.

And wouldn’t that mean Auro is more Town by that from your POV?

Why would that mean that?

1) in that same Cheeky post she also talked about Pops.
Not just you.

Your post accused me of being scum because Cheeky mentioned me in that post.

What does pops being in the post have to do with anything?

2)If they mentioned you telling Auro to shut up then that could indicate Auro is Town
Well at least I believe Cheeky’s Interaction There says that if what your saying it true.

Also didn’t one of Cheeky’s Reads have Chemist as Town?
@ML put that in your case on him.

Are you trying to defend Chemist by saying he can't be scum because scum never list each other as town?

[Miss Lane]

XD
What?
You just posted me Confirming I’m right LMAO.
I did say Pops, Egix and you were in my PoE.
And you only showed me voting Pops.

You said that you never mention another player while you are voting the first one. I've quoted three times that you've done that.

Stop trying to make the conversation about something it's not to distract from the fact that every statement you make is in blatant contradiction with reality.

[Miss Lane]

XD
What?
You just posted me Confirming I’m right LMAO.
I did say Pops, Egix and you were in my PoE.
And you only showed me voting Pops.

You said that you never mention another player while you are voting the first one. I've quoted four times that you've done that.

Stop trying to make the conversation about something it's not to distract from the fact that every statement you make is in blatant contradiction with reality.

ebwop

[Miss Lane]

TSE: *makes argument*
ML: *counters argument*
TSE: What does what you said have anything to do with this thing that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about?

[Miss Lane]

Just checked, that was hammer. I didn't realise, though I think a quick lynch on Egix is optimal here and probably would have done it were I aware?

This isn't a good post from Klick

[Miss Lane]

To me you said.
I scum read (blank) more but I’ll vote Alu with Suji instead.

So I ask you again.
Why did you scum read Alu so much you were willing to vote them?

No. I never said that to you.

[Miss Lane]

1) Yeah your honestly not that stupid as Town.
That Cheeky post talks about BOTH Pops and You.
You say Cheeky’s mention of “ego” you is because of your interactions with Auro.
But what about Pops.
^
Like how do you not understand this?

pops was drunk posting in the thread for pages on end. Just like Cheeky said she was. What bearing does that have on anything?

2) The opposite actually.
What made you jump to the conclusion I was defending Chemist?

I can find any number of posts where you specifically try to lean town on Chemist or you try to keep him null. Why would you ask for a case on him if you weren't defending him?

[Miss Lane]

To me you said.
I scum read (blank) more but I’ll vote Alu with Suji instead.

So I ask you again.
Why did you scum read Alu so much you were willing to vote them?

No. I never said that to you.

Then explain.
And you still don’t respond to the second part.
When I’d expect a player like you to be able to do.
But then Again if your scum I don’t expect you to do it.
LOL.

I'm not going to respond to the second part, because it was answered long before you started seriously coming at me. If you want a response to that part, you're welcome to read my posts. If you'd expect me to not respond as scum, you've got a problem with your expectations. I'm responding to you right now out of courtesy, but to be honest I think you hold no sway in this game, and that most people see and agree that you have very little clue what you're talking about a majority of the time.

[Miss Lane]

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

This is disgusting timing.

Combined with the Cheeky vote that immediately follows it, I can go w/ Chemist scum right now, and I'd be willing to at least temporarly town block w/ CSF and TSE.

[Miss Lane]

@TSE and Auro:

Convince me on CSF? They've given very little content that I've cared about so far. Is it all related to daykill stuff?
I'm willing to accept TSE town. I'm going to have to sit and think for a bit tonight about Auro. If Auro is Town I have a lot of trouble seeing Enter as town.

What major game did we play together?

I agree TSE is town, but blocking with him means we have to reach an agreement, which means we have to be able to communicate and I don't think that's happened successfully once this game?

CSF is likely town because of Cheeky and Chemist jumping on their wagon so quickly. This is based off the assumption that Chemist is scum, however.

[Miss Lane]

I have never been anything but SK in a TSE game. Anyone who's played w/ me as Enter will know that I'm outside my scumrange.

[Miss Lane]

CSF is likely town because of Cheeky and Chemist jumping on their wagon so quickly

Good point. Pops was also on this wagon and advocating the "CSF was active" theory at the time.

iirc, that was yshtola. pops rebutted the wagon.

It also seems more likely that there would be at least one town advocating a wagon before two scum jump on anyways.

[Miss Lane]

VOTE: Cat scratch fever

I still think Yshtola's theory is probably wrong, but I think this second kill was quite possibly motivated by the win/win of killing Y'shtola or generating a scumflip that distracted the conversation off of CSF.

That interpretation would still give her a remaining kill, and looking at CSF's posting patterns, she is likely to return in 3-4 hours. If we can flashwagon her very, very quickly here, we could lynch her before she can desperation shoot. As soon as she's aware of this level of pressure she's likely to keep more of an eye on the thread.

Oh I must have missed that.

That is p scummy from her.

[Miss Lane]

Actually that's really garbage.

Especially w/ Cheeky and Chem jumping on.

VOTE: Chemist

[Miss Lane]

No sweetheart. The Bolded is you.

I have more success working with other players in the one game you call me "scum" than you have in the last three games together combined most of which players have strongly agreed you're town in. I'm really not certain you're in any sort of place to make a statement like this.

[Miss Lane]

Then accept Auro is Town here as well as Klick.

Why would I do that?

I resent the assumptions you have to take to make a statement like this:

1. That I've never seen Auro play before. I have. BoP 1 I caught him as scum. I was not town or scum in that game, so it was exclusively me observing him, with no chance for the opposite. We also played uPick Rapiers together as well as a few other games, iirc.
2. That it's impossible for me to read a player w/o playing a game with them before this. That's ridiculous.

[Miss Lane]

Unless you're making the assumption that because I think you're town I'm willing to sheep your reads.

That doesn't follow because I think your reads are probably around average, possibly a little below (although I will admit that the sample set may be skewed at least slightly against you). It's also kind of ridiculous to unironically ask a player that you are scum reading to sheep you.

[Miss Lane]

I think before I'm willing to sheep you in any game, TSE, I have to 1. Be able to carry out a conversation with minimal disruption due to failure to understand each other and 2. See that you're willing to at the very least read the posts that I've pointed out are worth your time.

That said, I very very rarely sheep players at all, and I doubt that even after meeting those criteria you will be in the sort of bracket of players that I am willing to sheep.

[Miss Lane]

Egix96 [5] -

TrueSoulEnergy, Cat Scratch Fever,

Auro,

popsofctown,

Klick

Color coded based on my reads

[Miss Lane]

UNVOTE:

[Miss Lane]

If I cared where you were voting I'd do something to change it.

[Miss Lane]

From my perspective, at least one Mafia member has to have been on Egix96's lynch. Unless you view that lynch as entirely accomplished by Town, I do not know why we are looking at the players outside of the wagon for today.

Fallacious reasoning, Sujimichi. Think about it.

It is not fallacious if you are simultaneously not on the wagon and have town role PM.

[Miss Lane]

From my perspective, at least one Mafia member has to have been on Egix96's lynch. Unless you view that lynch as entirely accomplished by Town, I do not know why we are looking at the players outside of the wagon for today.

Fallacious reasoning, Sujimichi. Think about it.

It is not fallacious if you are simultaneously not on the wagon and have town role PM.

Like if you believe that I'm town or Suji is town, there must be at least one scum on the wagon.

[Miss Lane]

It is not fallacious if you are simultaneously not on the wagon and have town role PM

Neither have any bearing towards the validity of the argument itself.
"The sun rises in the east, therefore I'm town" -> I have a town role PM but that's still a fallacy.

You don't understand what I'm saying.

It took 5 players to lynch Egix. There are 5 town in the game. (6 if you count Egix, but he wasn't on his own wagon). Therefore, if you are town and not on the wagon, there are a maximum of 4 town players on the wagon.

[Miss Lane]

@ML: I'm not saying that one scum is likely on the wagon is fallacious, but implying that you hunt in the wagon while not lynching outside is.

Why is that the case?

If you're going to do any sort of VCA, Sujimi's approach is the only logical one I can see from here.

[Miss Lane]

Sure, it's likely there's one scum on the wagon (and I think it's Pops), but there's equal likelihood of scum outside the wagon as well; so "vote within the wagon" is incorrect.

Wrong. If you are town and not on the Egix wagon, there is a 100% likelihood that scum is on that wagon. The other two players off the wagon could be town, so there is a <100% chance of scum being on the wagon, therefore the likelihood of finding scum on the wagon > the likelihood of finding scum off the wagon numerically speaking.

This applies to the Egix wagon because it doesn't seem like a scum generated push; it was an entirely reasonable wagon. And that's strengthened by the fact that flipped Masons scumread him too.

This argument has no relation to whether or not there is scum on the wagon numerically speaking.

[Miss Lane]

I'd like to point out that the only argument made against me or Sujimi (as far as I can tell) has been an argument of BoP, and no one in this player list has played a significant amount of games with me, and from what I've seen, no one has played a significant amount of games w/ Sujimi, this seems a bit ridiculous FMPOV.

[Miss Lane]

Why are you ignoring the actual argument for looking on the lynch?

There is no argument. As I said, one scum being on wagon doesn't imply you look on the lynch.

Miss Lynch, you misunderstand. Sure, scum can be on the wagon. The idea that you hence look "on the wagon" is problematic.

We townbloc and lynch the highest equity scum (this also insures against an incorrect townbloc).

I think you just approach the game differently from Suji. I haven't seen any reason why their approach is "problematic" other than your opinion. I don't see a solid reason why you'd oppose approaching the game the way they are proposing we approach it. There are 9 days before deadline. Arguing about approach seems a bit ridiculous, especially when you can seem to find even a somewhat decent reason to oppose it.

[Miss Lane]

I'd like to point out that the only argument made against me or Sujimi (as far as I can tell) has been an argument of BoP

No. Suji's reasoning has been bad, her pushes have been bad, her actions have been scummy. This is not a BoP argument.

Her most recent reasoning seems in line with a relatively logical approach to the game. I'll have to look closer at her pushes and her actions, but I don't know that I've seen anything I dislike from her more than I dislike from Klick.

[Miss Lane]

TSE stop calling me sweetheart.

[Miss Lane]

I guarantee I will bring up harassment claims against you if you do it again.

[Miss Lane]

I think you just approach the game differently from Suji

Indeed, but I'm not suspecting her based on her playstyle.

Sure, but you're opposing her reasoning based on her playstyle.

[Miss Lane]

What does that even mean? I'm calling out bad reasoning based on the bad reasons, not on playstyle, you're making little sense.

It's not bad reasoning though. O_O

[Miss Lane]

@ML: I'm not saying that one scum is likely on the wagon is fallacious, but implying that you hunt in the wagon while not lynching outside is.

Why is that the case?

If you're going to do any sort of VCA, Sujimi's approach is the only logical one I can see from here.

You'd have to townread Sujimi though to take this approach. Do you townread her?

No, I don't.
I only have to townread myself. I am not on the wagon, therefore there is guaranteed to be scum on the wagon.

[Miss Lane]

I could also townread Chemist.

[Miss Lane]

@ML: I'm not saying that one scum is likely on the wagon is fallacious, but implying that you hunt in the wagon while not lynching outside is.

Why is that the case?

If you're going to do any sort of VCA, Sujimi's approach is the only logical one I can see from here.

You'd have to townread Sujimi though to take this approach. Do you townread her?

No, I don't.
I only have to townread myself. I am not on the wagon, therefore there is guaranteed to be scum on the wagon.

No the argument was whether there was exactly 1 or more than 1 scum on the wagon. If you think there's only 1 scum on the wagon, then it's easier to lynch off wagon, since the pool is smaller and you yourself are in the pool and can immediately take yourself out.

I see what you're saying. I'm entertaining Sujimi's approach right now while I try and ISO her to see if I can validate it, mostly because I enjoy being able to take complicated problems and boil them down to numbers, but I guess this might have been what Auro was saying earlier, in that practically speaking I'd have to town read Sujimi and Chemist in order to truly subscribe to only observing the wagon.

If that's what you were trying to get across Auro, I apologize.

[Miss Lane]

I like Sujimi's approach and questions so far. She's at the very worst null, the only hesitation I have about her is that certain suspicions from her seem to be directed towards players who are confirmed town at this point.

[Miss Lane]

I've seen very little I like from Klick. A few posts here and there, but generally speaking one of the most fence-sitty players in the game.

I don't think I'd put him as more likely to be town than Suji.

[Miss Lane]

Talk to me about Suji

I will, in a bit

I'd still like even just a tldr on this as well. There's a lot of talk about Suji from you with little substance.

+1

[Miss Lane]

Klick, which way do you lean on Chemist?

[Miss Lane]

There's a fascinating relationship between the amount you read from me and how strongly you town read me.

[Miss Lane]

I would like to hear from pops again

[Miss Lane]

CSF I'm gonna be honest most of your post seems remarkably nitpicky. This part in particular stands out as wrong:

Her reads here are very simplistic. All of her scumreads townread Aldus, and her townreads scumread Aldus, which doesn't make sense because if you're going to make associative reads like that, you should also consider that scum aren't all going to townread each other.

First, assuming that this was the basis behind her reads with no reason to assume it at all is weird. But in addition to that, pops was townreading Aldus at this point, Klick has been townreading him the entire game, and Egix had no read on him at all. Your statement is so factually incorrect, that you could say the reverse is true and it would still be just as wrong.

[Miss Lane]

Homuras questions additionally look like some of the better questions asked this game and the points brought up are solid ones that should be brought to notice.

[Miss Lane]

The posts about Aldi's are irrelevant. The way Aldi's arrived at his TSE town read was awkward and supports Suji's stance on him, IMO. Your disagreement over assignment of meaning to the word "weird" is merely that: a disagreement. I don't see how she's really pushing Auro at all in the place where you accuse her of doing so, and ending a conversation when it is no longer fruitful is a good thing to do and something I've regularly done as town. All I really see in that "case" is a list of misrepresentations, and I'm not really certain why you would do that considering I'm town reading you.

[Miss Lane]

Do you have a gut read on Suji that you just can't justify?

[Miss Lane]

Like even if one of the things you called Suji out for doing was anti-town or scum indicative, I've seen all of them come more from town than from scum, which gives even less weight to this argument.

[Miss Lane]

Let me preface this by saying that single game meta is a bad sole reason to town or scum read anyone in a mafia game outside of early day 1, and especially in potential Mylo. That said, I skimmed Suji's recent scum game and recent town game and found too few similarities between either to support a scum read on them except in the most dire circumstances. The scum game bring used lasted only 9 days and seems to be a mechanically run game - a game where posting a mere 30 times in 13 pages isn't really a whole lot to write home about, and a game where a player who seems to not be making much of an impression at all will likely fly mostly under the radar. In addition, Suji's posting in that game seem to be largely concerned with her scum buddy, with mastina coming up in roughly 70% of her posts. I don't see a correlation here with her and cheeky. In fact, she mentions Cheeky almost not at all. Combine this with the fact that her most recent town game she also posted largely like this - the only notable lacking factor from my skin is that she's less aggressive and controlling in this game - could be explained by a plethora of reasons. Fearmongering over Suji's play in this instance does not seem like a good move to make, especially when there are 9 days left to allow a more reasonable approach to make an impact.

[Miss Lane]

CSF I'm gonna be honest most of your post seems remarkably nitpicky. This part in particular stands out as wrong:

Her reads here are very simplistic. All of her scumreads townread Aldus, and her townreads scumread Aldus, which doesn't make sense because if you're going to make associative reads like that, you should also consider that scum aren't all going to townread each other.

First, assuming that this was the basis behind her reads with no reason to assume it at all is weird.

What did I assume? I don't think I made any assumptions here. It's an observation that her scumreads all townread Aldus and her townreads scumread Aldus with the exception of maybe Klick.

But in addition to that, pops was townreading Aldus at this point, Klick has been townreading him the entire game, and Egix had no read on him at all. Your statement is so factually incorrect, that you could say the reverse is true and it would still be just as wrong.

Pops wasn't not townreading Aldus at this point. Why do you think this? pop's vote on Aldus as of 442, and 456 also implies she was still scumreading Ald there.

Klick I admit I could've been wrong on simply because I don't remember what Klick's view of the game was at the time off the top of my head. But notably, you and pops were both active at the time and were pushing there.

Klick and Egix. Youre right on pops, I admittedly only read her posts up until she seemed to flip on Aldi's, but the more recent posting seems wrong. Your assumption is that her reads are based on associatives, and 67% correlation in a 6 data set is only barely a sample, IMO.

[Miss Lane]

Combine this with the fact that her most recent town game she also posted largely like this - the only notable lacking factor from my skin is that she's less aggressive and controlling in this game - could be explained by a plethora of reasons.

What were the similarities? I can take a look myself later

Posting that engaged a larger majority of the player base vise her "only my scum buddy matters approach in her scum game" higher posting frequency (a small thing to take into account, however, given the size of her scum game). Additionally, I believe she had day chat with mastina in her scum game.

[Miss Lane]

Or like, in 476 they were anyway

Redactions made with regard to associations.

I interpreted that as she left people out due to associations, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask her.
@suji

[Miss Lane]

The posts about Aldi's are irrelevant. The way Aldi's arrived at his TSE town read was awkward and supports Suji's stance on him, IMO. Your disagreement over assignment of meaning to the word "weird" is merely that: a disagreement.

I didn't think Aldi's trajectory on TSE was that odd, although I might be biased because early game I also thought TSE was towny by meta so there was some degree of mindmeld there.

I thought TSE was town from game start as well, but I still think Aldus' change on him felt weird.

I mean Ald was arguably her top scumread at the time, so I'm looking at her reasons to justify the scumread and seeing if the stated reasons match up with her confidence in the read. And I don't think they do

I agree with her that the first quote from Aldus seems to be framing TSE, and in the second he seems fence-sitty.

[Miss Lane]

Or like, in 476 they were anyway

Redactions made with regard to associations.

I interpreted that as she left people out due to associations, but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask her.
@suji

Oh I think I read redactions as reactions lol

Oh. Err... maybe it was a typo and I'm wrong, I guess. I never saw it as that, lol, but that maybe makes more sense?

Fine but 66% is still a lot imo.

Fair. I won't completely toss the idea for now, and there's definitely more weight to it than I originally conceived.

[Miss Lane]

@ML

Do you have me on ignore?

If I wanted to find the last coherent post from you, I'd have to open a history book, and the last post I've seen you comprehend was possibly even farther back. I've tried to minimize misunderstandings with you and that's proven about as productive as arguing with a two-year-old. On the date where you make a post that seems to understand what a post is trying to say, respond in a manner that displays such comprehension, and add a thought that has more depth than the kitchen sink I will start giving you the time of day again.

[Miss Lane]

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

The first one is saying something that not only doesn't really counter my point, it just proves you have no clue what I'm talking about.

[Miss Lane]

So these aren’t important enough for you Blood Wiplasher?

The first one is saying something that not only doesn't really counter my point, it just proves you have no clue what I'm talking about.

This is a really mean way to say that mastina is infamous for setting up her scum team after she's dead, and considering the game only lasted 3 days, having a partner there for the large majority of the game is what matters.

Your point about mastina doesn't really apply here.

[Miss Lane]

Alright. I can see what you're saying there, TBH I forgot that scum have to push town to win here and that was a pretty big factor in Suji case. I'll look more closely later tonight or tomorrow.

[Miss Lane]

Alright. I can see what you're saying there, TBH I forgot that scum have to push town to win here and that was a pretty big factor in Suji case. I'll look more closely later tonight or tomorrow.

Like a lot of the points made earlier are arguably non-factors in a game where this isn't necessary.

[Miss Lane]

I need to hear some pretty solid reasoning as to why you feel worse about my slot today pops.

[Miss Lane]

It could be as simple as suji pops klick, I think.

[Miss Lane]

I am becoming more and more sold on Auro town as the game goes on and as I continue to ISO people.

[Miss Lane]

I'm on with town locking Auro and TSE at this point. I'm having a really difficult time seeing Auro as scum. I think CSF is effectively also in this group.

[Miss Lane]

I am ok with lynching pops today. I need to look a lot harder at Klick and I need to examine Auro's Suji case more closely before I can PoE the last one out.

[Miss Lane]

Chemist isn't doing any gamesolving, do tell me what you think of his ISO

I think in any game it's garbage, and I'd want to lynch it, but Klick said he's seen both from Chemist before, so I'd have to get examples of him doing this as town before I can really read him either way, IMO. I'm just being lazy at this point and not metaing him mostly because I don't want to. Part of me wants to say that Klick only defends Chemist if they're on the same team and that them both being town is impossible with the current PoE, but I have to recognize that Klick defending scum Chemist is still possible.

[Miss Lane]

I thought it seemed scummy that you came into this day without much of a coherent worldview, in particular scum reading both me and Auro doesn't seem that plausible? I think it can be valid to feel strongly a quarreling pair has a scum in it and not be sure which one, but when it's something like this game where it looks like SvS never ever i would expect that to come to the forefront in the thought process. It makes it look a lot like you're playing close to the best about how this day is going.

You've moved towards a more coherent solve without someone calling you out on it, though.

To be fair I was gone while a lot of large things were happening, and I wasn't really scum reading you until recently.

[Miss Lane]

Yes.

[Miss Lane]

May I please town read you?

[Miss Lane]

I very much see where you're coming from on Auro. I very much see how he looks a lot like I'd expect scum to look, at least in style. However, his product is often town. The goals he pushes towards seem towny. He would have to be very strong scum to be playing like this as anything but town, which I haven't completely written off yet, but I'm beginning to be very much convinced by his attitude of pushing towards clarity which is generally speaking a solid thing to do as town.

[Miss Lane]

Some examples include: his interaction with Cheeky seem textbook scum, his questions often seem to be lacking in any sort of real motivation to do anything other than look like you're doing something.

However, he continues to push for clarity, for a town block, he seems to be constantly up to date on the state of the game, the energy he's out in would be difficult to replicate as scum

[Miss Lane]

He has almost too solid a sense of exactly how many town reads he needs to have to get away with playing scum - because it feels like he has too many town reads for him to be scum. If you could pick someone else to push today, who?

[Miss Lane]

Auro, in BoP 1, how much of Michael Scott was you?

[Miss Lane]

Also, do you think I'm a competent mafia player?

[Miss Lane]

If I'm supposed to assume Auro is town and his reads are probably good, then I'd sheep his Sujimichi case.
If I'm supposed to assume Auro is town and misreading me means this is an offgame for him and I should believe in myself, I think there's some good reasons to scumread A Fever You Can't Sweat Out
If I'm supposed to get really scared of mislynching in MyLo I think I push Chemist because he's kind of been a nothing sandwich like he is in most of his games but circumstantial evidences from lots of slots seeming to have town equity + Chemist never getting pushed makes the chances he is scum rather high

The first of those perspectives makes the most sense. If Auro is town I'm having just as bad a game as he is, worse because I'm tunnelier, if he's scum I have the best chance of changing hearts and minds after a missed or abstained vig tomorrow if he had more ownership over a today's lynch.

How does the game change perspective if for some reason you are allowed a vig shot and Chemist flips town?

[Miss Lane]

Auro, in BoP 1, how much of Michael Scott was you?

Also, do you think I'm a competent mafia player?

Yes, and I don't know. I think your logic is wonky at many places.
I can absolutely fake this energy as scum.

Yes, most of BoP was you?

[Miss Lane]

I agree that most energy can be faked by a competent enough player. The problem I'm trying to overcome is whether or not you'd have the motivation to fake it.

[Miss Lane]

You're ok with Suji, pops, or Chemist today, Auro?