Newbie 2019 | Game Over!

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Micc

I didn’t know mods played the game and he’s a Wisconsin fan.

[ItalianoVD]

BTW good to see you again Mini. Apologies for voting you off last game.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: redados why do you care how many votes they have on them?

Why do you care about why he cares how many votes they have on them?

[ItalianoVD]

BTW good to see you again Mini. Apologies for voting you off last game.

You too Italiano, kind of brought it on myself with not being active much.

The scum played into it very well, but now it’ll be something you can look into if it happens this game. Hopefully we can all stay as active as possible.

[ItalianoVD]

Why do you care about why he cares about why...

He gets it.

[ItalianoVD]

Hmm... interesting. Now, how shall we begin fruitful discussion?

What’s interesting?

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I didn't care for post 24. feels non productive and actually a bit harmful to whatever Porken's goal is by asking Redados the original question.

I’m questioning the questioner; with a bit of tongue in cheek, but questioning him nonetheless.

[ItalianoVD]

2 votes isn’t close to day ending, and pressure promotes discussion. This is not a good reason to unvote. Why did you really unvote?

My question was with a bit of jest. Personally I agree and think the unvote is weird and deserves pressure.

[ItalianoVD]

ok what id you learn from asking your question?

His answer makes sense. I agree.

[ItalianoVD]

@Micc How is it non productive?

[ItalianoVD]

I assume Micc has left RVS according to 32. Still got players who haven’t checked in yet. Like to hear from those people.

[ItalianoVD]

Who has reads this early?

VOTE: Redados

And why’d you pick out Shelly? Why not N0blenoob or T-Bone?

[ItalianoVD]

@Micc How is it non productive?

I feel like it's pretty clear that the reason Porkens asked the question is to launch into a push of some sort. I know this because Porkens voted in the same post.

i guess if you weren't able to deduct that reason out yourself then there's some value in asking your question. I'm giving you credit for deduction skills that are at least a little bit better than than having watched you play a game.

so then I look at how you asked the question, as you said yourself mostly in jest. By doing that you downplay the importance or seriousness of the push that Porkens is about to launch into before it even happens. And you can see just by looking at Redados's posts that a reasonably serious answer was given in post 21, but then by post 28 he's basically dodging Porkens follow up by continuing on your joke.

so i overall i feel like at best you asked the most softball of questions without really thinking about it, and at the worst you sabotaged Porkens attempt to make a read. those things lean mafia indicative to me.

Okay fair enough. I’ll be more careful now. Pretty sure we’ve left RVS, yes?

[ItalianoVD]

I suspect it’s the

other

interpretation.

Why are you answering questions directed at other players?

Guess I can ask you the same question.

[ItalianoVD]

Is 107 a shade? Am I using that right? I don’t get that from Porkens at all.

[ItalianoVD]

The problem I see with having post based reads is that they are not alignment indicative so it’s not a real solid way to read players.

[ItalianoVD]

Either I’m missing something in your argument, or you’re missing something in mine. Everyone is either town or scum. I provided a reason why he would do it as town and a reason why he would do it as scum. I could do that for basically any action that anyone carried out. My approach is to analyze what players do.

It is to understand what they would do in certain situations and why they would do what they have already done.

I get your analysis, but you have no idea what certain players would do in a given situation. Sure you can speculate, but that’s all it is, speculation.

[ItalianoVD]

"Because I’m already aware of the reasons why he would do this." sounds like extra info or something to me, which would only be available to scum. So you're saying that he's either town or scum in your defense, which is what everyone is (could be town or scum). This brings us back to the starting point, yet your words suggest that you already "know" something...

Either I’m missing something in your argument, or you’re missing something in mine. Everyone is either town or scum. I provided a reason why he would do it as town and a reason why he would do it as scum. I could do that for basically any action that anyone carried out. My approach is to analyze what players do. It is to understand what they would do in certain situations and why they would do what they have already done.

I actually missed this. I like Shelly’s rebuttal here 106, it’s pretty easy to understand. Comparably you’re response in 109 is kind of weak. Several players have called you out on your wording and I can’t say I’ve liked your responses up to this point.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not really feeling any of these posts:

i just spent an entire post defending your not being here for the last five hours and you vote me

i feel betrayed

So defending players is alignment indicative? Town alignment? Your wording makes you sound kinda town, but I don’t know, I don’t like the framing here.

I too find that odd. In what seems to be the RVS, voting for someone who protected you doesn’t seem right. Probably not much to base a read off of though.

You find it odd, then say it doesn’t seem right, but then say it’s not much to base a read off of. So then why’d you even mention it?

I do not think that Tbones vote is a serious one, most of what he has said seems in jest

Agreed. T-Bone can’t really be called a lurker yet. I suggest that the people who voted for T-Bone should unvote.

Again, you found it odd and said it didn’t seem right. But here you say you agree that it was in jest. You’re confusing me man.

[ItalianoVD]

The problem I see with having post based reads is that they are not alignment indicative so it’s not a real solid way to read players.

Want to clarify: ...unless you know how that player’s tells and see through it...

[ItalianoVD]

It would be nice to see Porkens create content that is not just investigating and pushing. However, investigating and pushing is

good

, that is how we find information and contradictions, and that leads to finding scum.

Huh, what other form of content is there? Fluff?

[ItalianoVD]

@ItalianoVD: So post based reads are the main thing we've got (there is vote analysis).

No I get it, I’m saying only basing ones reads on lurkers or heavy posters will be inconsistent because it’s not alignment indicative.

In my opinion defending players can be of either alignment, though it often happens unconsciously as scum.

Right that’s what I’m saying. We’re in agreement.

[ItalianoVD]

This game has a lot of contradictory/head scratching posts and it’s pretty confusing to me so far as I don’t know if it’s coming from scum or from newbie town and why is Porkens being labeled as aggressive and pushing like it’s a bad thing. Redados and Shelly read him this way, but say it’s a “good” thing.

I kinda feel this way about it.

[ItalianoVD]

Why can’t I post this picture?

[ItalianoVD]

Oh so you can see it? I can’t

[ItalianoVD]

Alright, now that everyone has posted I’ll give my leads up to this point which are subject to change as the day goes on. (Knowing this game, they probably will)

I think T-Bone is town based off his posts and questioning.
I already know I’m town because I am, heh.
I assume Mini is townie again because she is posting like she was last game.
I also assume shellyc is townie
N0bleNoob could be a bit lower, but so far I like his posting.

These people I have no idea about:
I can’t get a read off of Micc. Then again wouldn’t know what I was looking for anyway.
Same with Porkens. Don’t know their meta or tells so wouldn’t know anything about them unless they flip.

These are the people that I am having trouble deciding if it’s scum posting inconsistencies or newbie townie posting inconsistencies:
Genius made some contradictory posts about an interaction between Micc and TBone that stood out to me
Redados idea of not wanting to be on a wagon early in the day


If I had to just guess at who I think is scum, I’d say it’s Redados based on overall posting and listing a reads list on page 2 before everyone posted and being unprompted. almost like a “Look At Me I’m So Town” Wasn’t needed and seemed forced, but that’s just me. Others may see it differently.

As I said all these reads are subject to change as the day progresses. I also want to get more into what the SEs think. Last game I played, all the SEs were town. I’m really hoping it’s like that this game. Even if it’s not I’d still like to get more of the SEs thoughts.

[ItalianoVD]

ItalianoVD - He has been active. I think his posting leaves a little bit more to be desired. I’m getting slight scumvibes but nothing concrete.

Any particular posts or actions that stand out to you? What are the slight scum vibes?

[ItalianoVD]

So far I have no reads for what role a person might have in the game as I am new to it I don't expect to have solid reads for a while.
My main suspects for now are those accusing others of being scum, it seems to me a good way to keep yourself from being seen as scum if you accuse others of being the same.

This is an interesting quote. I can definitely understand the premise, but how else would you find scum unless you pressure players and otherwise accuse?

[ItalianoVD]

I don't agree with your basis of what looks scummy. I don't think that some of the things you have called out as suspicious are indeed suspicious. This may not be malicious on your part, if you're town.
Okay, that’s fair. With that being said, just like you said to N0bleNoob, if we don’t accuse people with pressure and with what we think is scummy then how are we going to catch scum? Whether we agree with it or not it’s what people see or feel.

When other people are aggressive, I either agree with their line of questioning, or it reads very obvious to me as newbie play. Your pushing doesn't make me feel like either of those do.

If I continue to feel this way, I'll try to flesh out these ideas more.

Well you feel that way now, I’d like it if you could flesh out these ideas more now.

[ItalianoVD]

I also assume shellyc is townie.

Any particular reasons?

Just overall posting and feel of the posts. Like I said though these reads are far from concrete and if I see something that stands out or if someone has a good argument for why my read(s) should change I am open to that analysis. Right now she just feels townie.

[ItalianoVD]

Had to clear up the quoting in 192.

I don't agree with your basis of what looks scummy. I don't think that some of the things you have called out as suspicious are indeed suspicious. This may not be malicious on your part, if you're town.

Okay, that’s fair. With that being said, just like you said to N0bleNoob, if we don’t accuse people with pressure and with what we think is scummy then how are we going to catch scum? Whether we agree with it or not it’s what people see or feel.

When other people are aggressive, I either agree with their line of questioning, or it reads very obvious to me as newbie play. Your pushing doesn't make me feel like either of those do.

If I continue to feel this way, I'll try to flesh out these ideas more.

Well you feel that way now, I’d like it if you could flesh out these ideas more now.[/quote]

[ItalianoVD]

mafia would not have the motivation to investigate, but what better way to defend yourself as mafia than play the part of the investigatory townsperson?
This is still my rebuttal for that statement, it DOES NOT MATTER the motivations of what a scum would be, smart people would not play like scum so they would not be seen as scum.

I like this because what it does is get people thinking about the whole picture and not base your read(s) on only one thing.

For example we don’t know who the scum are. They could both be noobs, they could both be SEs or it could be one experienced and one noob. Putting tells/reads into a cookie cutter is dangerous for town and scum can take advantage of that.

I thought that you jumped on me a little quick, with little basis in why you jumped on me.

You pushed because I wanted to play the game and participate in the game?

That’s not it at all. I pushed on you because of a scumtell that has some history of being done before both on and offsite.

I find it a little disturbing that you seem to be putting so much trust in the SEs. For all we know there’s only one that we can trust. Not to mention that being an SE in and of itself makes you no better than a newbie. I think

everybody

should add in their two cents in some way and that

everybody’s

thoughts should be regarded with no basis in prior experience in this site. It doesn’t sound like you’re planning to do that.

Well as a newbie, I don’t know some of the things on this site like the SEs do. They know the meta, certain tells and more often than not they are fairly accurate in their town tells. Having town tells can eliminate candidates for scum which in part narrows down the field and helps find the scum easier. I’m not disregarding anyone else’s opinions or thoughts. Maybe I’m giving them too much respect huh?

I’m letting the town in on my thoughts, but I see a couple of you have a problem with it so I may just dial it back.

Either I’m missing something in your argument, or you’re missing something in mine. Everyone is either town or scum. I provided a reason why he would do it as town and a reason why he would do it as scum. I could do that for basically any action that anyone carried out. My approach is to analyze what players do.

It is to understand what they would do in certain situations and why they would do what they have already done.

I get your analysis, but you have no idea what certain players would do in a given situation. Sure you can speculate, but that’s all it is, speculation.

After reading it back again, I admit it sounded harsh. My apologies. I kinda tell it like it is so forgive me my responses have sounded this way. I will try to adjust it from now on.

[ItalianoVD]

Not sure where the activity went, but I’ll be off an on all day.

[ItalianoVD]

I’d like to talk about a couple of things that stood out to me in these last couple of pages.

I don’t know. I think everyone who I’ve engaged has done a reasonable job explaining themselves, and I haven’t really been thinking too hard about alignment yet. I’m hoping that when I look back I’ll see some clues.

From what I’ve seen you haven’t engaged with the whole playerlist.

You’ve interacted with Redados, shellyc and Genius from what I’ve seen. You’ve only interacted with myself and N0bleNoob when prompted. There’s still 3 players you have not interacted with (Mini, Micc, and TBone). The latter part of your quote makes me believe that you are gonna be looking for clues from those you’ve engaged with. Are you going to be engaging with rest of us?

I have some some very basic emotional gut reactions but nothing that I can explain rationally.

For example, I

feel

like Micc is playing in a protown way, but of course I

think

he’s just being a good SE.

On the other side of things, my initial reaction to Italiano is suspicion, but intellectually I think his avatar is making me read his tone in a negative way.

Genius, this is what I mean by SE experience. You have both Micc and a Porkens gut-reading each other from experience of playing together and also being on this site. So when I say I’d like to hear what the SEs have to say about things, I’m not disregarding anyone else, they just have insight we just don’t have yet and I don’t think there’s any harm in admitting that. I’m also not saying to blindly follow them. I assume they would say the same thing.

And lol @ Porkens. So I should change my avatar and then you’ll feel better about me?

As far as my reads, they’re pretty much the same, especially since nothing big happened since I last posted my reads. I’d say the slight changes are for Mini, shellyc and Micc. I still would like to give Mini the benefit of the doubt because although I feel a bit more comfortable playing the game I was her two games ago. Even last game I was so frustrated with not knowing stuff I almost voted myself off. Shellyc has just seemed like town with her posting and actions. For Micc to re-evaluate the way he has me thinking town. My last two games scum didn’t do this or if they did it felt fake or forced. I could be wrong, but I’m not feeling that here.

I guess these guys are in my no-elimination group, for now.

Everyone else is pretty much where they were before. I’m actually pretty lost right now and don’t actually know where I’d go. Seems like all the pushes kind of faded out and now we’re all staring at each in awkward silence.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, I was questioning things that stood out to me. If there’s something specific you think I’m ignoring please point it out and I’ll tell you what I think.

No issues with that at all. Was going by your statement and it just seemed liked you weren’t going to be looking at the others, but your explanation makes sense.

Humans have bias, and I think avatars have an effect on reads. How you choose to present yourself is up to you.

Hmm, maybe that’s you. I find it strange that you are only suspicious of me because of an avatar. I thought you were playing around, but you’ve reiterated that you are not. Personally I don’t care what avatar a play has, anyone/everyone is just as likely to be guilty/innocent.

T-Bone kinda pinged me with his buddy buddy talk with Micc.

It actually wasn’t buddy buddy talk and TBone has mentioned he has thought Micc was scum.

Genius not voting is off putting to me because I think scum can be afraid of how their votes will make people read them.

Very good point. I’ve noticed the uneasiness to solidify a decision from the start, which is also why I’m reading him the way I am.

Italiano is a bit inconsistent. First calling post based reads bad and then doing quite. A bit of post based reads.

I didn’t call it bad, I said post based reads are not alignment indicative and can’t be relied on as sole read indicators.

Shelly has some questionable logic and she and red have a weird synergy going on. Mostly it’s Shelly shadowing red on certain things but there’s a touch of reciprocation. Red has also given some questionable justifications.

Let’s say for hypothetical purposes that both of Red and Shelly are town. Is it not possible that as new town players they found solace in having agreements together and not sure if you mentioned it but what would their alignment be in your opinion? TvT SvS or TvS?

Mini mega could be mafia based on the “confused noob” posts but also could be ropebait.

So “confused noob” can only be from mafia?

Noble noob has said nothing about mini mega and vise versa, and the “I’m glad someone saw what I was doing there” post felt kinda like unnecessary justification to me.

Fair point. I can see that.

[ItalianoVD]

Micc is quite scummy to me, they haven't been contributing much as an SE. Also her reads post were SRing almost everyone, which is fairly suspect.

VOTE: Micc

Do you think he is scummy because he hasn’t been contributing? Or because he’s an SE? Also do you think SEs have an obligation to contribute more than anyone else? And how do you feel about Porkens who pretty much did the same thing with their readslist?

[ItalianoVD]

I am always suspicious of not voting your strongest scum read, voting when pushed, or simply not voting because of whatever reason. Our vote is our most powerful weapon against scum and when people are scared to use that power it throws my antennas up.

[ItalianoVD]

Whew, it’s a lot to unpack in these last few posts. Gimme a minute.

[ItalianoVD]

@Redados

At first I was gonna through 293 and breakdown questions of each section because I didn’t know what you were doing but your follow up at the latter part of the post makes me realize you were just making a point about everyone’s reads before giving your own. I think that’s okay.

ItalianoVD - what do you think of Porkens’ alignment?

I don’t particularly trust them. I think some of their reasons for suspecting people are a bit ambiguous or incomplete. And they also haven’t really hunkered down on a real vote. Shellyc mentioned this in 279. Also what Micc said about him in 234 which he has yet to really come back and address. So they have somewhat moved down from my null read to more of a suspicious/scumread.

After going through that, I'm going to share my gut alignment thoughts, which are in no order within lists:

Town:
ItalianoVD
Porkens
Redados
T-Bone

Neutral:
Micc

Suspicious:
ShellyC
N0bleNoob
MiniMegabyte
GeniusGamer

Obviously, right now, I am overly suspicious as there are not four mafia members in this game.

VOTE: N0bleNoob

What changed in your read for me that makes you think I’m town now?

And in your suspicious reads, who do you think is

more

likely to be partners out of the 4?

[ItalianoVD]

I could be down for a noob lunch.

So is it generally a thing that SEs don’t want to vote or eliminate any of the other SEs? What do you mean a noob lunch?

[ItalianoVD]

Something that has stood out to me is that Porkens votes for Shellyc early and to me it seems like you’re trying to fit a scumread into your vote instead of voting for your scumread. I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s genuine.

[ItalianoVD]

@TBone what are your thoughts on Porkens and I may have missed it, sorry if I did. Who do you think are Micc’s potential partners?

[ItalianoVD]

So my criticism of the play of GeniusGamer, MiniMegabyte, and N0bleNoob is that you aren't giving opinions on people. You don't have to be "aggressive" to say that you're think that X is scum and that Y is town. Tell us who you think is scum, who you think is town, and why.

To be fair, you did say this.

After typing this all out, N0bleNoob, Mini, and GeniusGamer are all in the same category of being passive,

not being aggressive, and that's what seems scummy to me.

It's also frustrating because I would like to hear more from them.

How else are they supposed to take it?

[ItalianoVD]

I didn't give any thoughts on Porkens. I don't really have them.

I don't believe in dealing in partner hunting on unflipped players. I don't know for sure that Micc is scum, there is no reason to try and tie him to another player unless he flips red. This is a thing, were you not a new player, I'd seriously hammer you for (and maybe that's unfair of me to give you a pass for your join date but ce la vie). It's not really good if you're town, and is one of those things that can easily be used to fake scumhunt.

Okay well the two games I’ve played all I’ve heard is “who’s the partner” “if you think they’re scum, who are they partnered with?” “That doesn’t make sense because I don’t see the, being partners with X”, etc and that’s come from SEs. If that’s not what should be done then I thank you for saying it. Personally I never liked it but figured that’s what is supposed to be done.

[ItalianoVD]

Something that has stood out to me is that Porkens votes for Shellyc early and to me it seems like you’re trying to fit a scumread into your vote instead of voting for your scumread. I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s genuine.

What have I said about shellac that strikes you as disengenuous?

It’s not so much what you specifically said, but what you’ve done. You voted for Shelly early and have really spent the day trying to prove to either us, yourself, or both that she is scum. As I said, I feel like you are trying to force a scumread into your vote. It just doesn’t feel organic. I’m probably biased because I feel Shellyc is town, but what you have framed as scummy I can genuinely see coming from town.

[ItalianoVD]

What makes you think Shelly is town, exactly?

I answer it post 193. With that post in mind, I haven’t seen anything that stands out to me and no one has pointed anything out that makes sense for me to be suspicious of her imo.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano can I ask why you see Redados as scum? I may have missed it I would ask noblenoob the same but atm he’s been prodded and hasn’t posted

Initially he posted a readslist on page 2. This was after he had gotten some heat for inviting GeniusGamer in RVS. For me it seemed like he was trying to look town and I even mentioned that it was something that had some history of being done so it wasn’t me just making something up. Then he didn’t care for my push on him but was okay with everyone else pushing others. Voted for me, which I thought was kinda OMGUS, but not as blatant as it was with you and Shellyc. I thought that was a bit contradictory. Then his 180 on me without much reason except gut. I’m usually suspicious of people who do 180s on me regardless of where their they think my alignment leans.

With all that said, while I don’t see a reason to not keep my vote here. I am a little less uneasy about Redados as I was the first half of the game. Not sure, but I may or may not be voting for him the closer it gets to the deadline.

[ItalianoVD]

unvoting not inviting. Stupid autocorrect

[ItalianoVD]

Oh I forgot. He is reading Shellyc as scum at the moment. From what I have seen he has only done this AFTER he was called out so to speak by Porkens as a potential partner with Shelly. He then goes on to come up with reasons for scumreading her in the exact same way Porkens did it and for the exact same reasons.

He is literally doing the thing he is scum reading Shelly for. Personally I don’t use sheeping as a read indicator especially and more so on Day 1.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not denying it, I’m simply saying I feel the read can come from town as well, so I’m not gonna be comfortable voting or eliminating someone based on a read that I feel could come from town. That may not be the case in this meta, but I’m just telling you why I’m not doing it.

So you think it’s disingenuous to combine Shelly and red?

[ItalianoVD]

That’s fine.

Shelly has plagiarized red’s reads and posts. Red is agreeing with me On an actual thing that happened and supporting that with new evidence. It’s not as if red is copying what I’m saying, which is all Shelly is doing in those examples.

Italiano, I think it's totally fair that you feel that way and I'm fine with you leaving your vote on me. Feel free to ask me questions and I will continue to be honest and open.

Votecount 1.6

Redados(2)

~ ItalianoVD(46), N0bleNoob(17)

MiniMegabyte(2)

~ Micc(19), GeniusGamer(51)

Micc(2)

~ T-Bone(21), shellyc(39)

shellyc(1)

~ Porkens(54)

N0bleNoob(1)

~ Redados(37)


Not Voting (1): MiniMegabyte(27)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-24 16:20:10)

Well we have just under 3 days left now. We should probably move toward consolidating one or two wagons. I really do not feel like Redados is a good elimination today. I'm just OK with Mini. Micc I am not feeling at all. ShellyC and NobleNoob would be my top two choices.

So T-Bone, Italiano, and Noob can you make a compelling case why I should join your wagons? If not can I interest you in consolidating on either shelly or Noob?

Italiano, I think it's totally fair that you feel that way and I'm fine with you leaving your vote on me. Feel free to ask me questions and I will continue to be honest and open.

It’s not that I don’t trust you and that I think you’re being dishonest. I think you are being honest, I just think you’re honestly scum.

That’s fine.

Shelly has plagiarized red’s reads and posts. Red is agreeing with me On an actual thing that happened and supporting that with new evidence. It’s not as if red is copying what I’m saying, which is all Shelly is doing in those examples.

The fact that you are okay with Red sheeping you but not okay with Shelly sheeping red is why it’s disingenuous to me. Not understanding why you think he’s not copying. The context of the game says otherwise.

So T-Bone, Italiano, and Noob can you make a compelling case why I should join your wagons? If not can I interest you in consolidating on either shelly or Noob?

Well seeing as both Micc and N0bleNoob are replacing out I’d give their replacements a moment to catch up and see if I/we feel any differently about the slots. With that said, I’ve already said that I wouldn’t vote for Shellyc. If she is scum, I would be surprised. I could be convinced to vote Noobs slot later on, but not today. I’ve also laid out why I’m voting Redados. And why do you think Redados would not be a good elimination? Maybe I’ve missed it.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry for the extra quotes at the top. I thought I cleared them out.

[ItalianoVD]

Does this mean that when all replacements are in we still have 2 days left for day 1?

Yup.

[ItalianoVD]

Just some quick questions/comments for some of things from page 16:

@SJReaver: Welcome to our game. Appreciate you replacing in. I love your energy and positivity. You seem very happy to play and that’s always a good thing. I agree with a lot of what you said in your readslist, but my question is this. In 389 you said

Italian-guy is town

. Now while I can appreciate that vote of confidence, how can you be that confident? I’m a little wary of people just completely alignment reading me with no hesitation and with no evidence. I don’t want this to come off as if I’m rude, but I just would like to know if you can elaborate on your confidence in my read.

@Shellyc: To be fair you scumread Mini for OMGUSing you and backed off when she unvoted you. Redados pretty much OMGUSed me but then backed off. Do you think he deserves the same benefit of the doubt as Mini? Or is there something else that makes you uneasy about him and the OMGUS was just something else added?

@Redados: You say your change wasn’t a 180. Your last response to me was 199. You still felt scummy vibes from me which is fair. You then didn’t make another mention of a read on me until 294. So what changed? We didn’t have any other conversations and you didn’t mention me at all for almost 100 posts. There was no way to change your mind because we had no interactions. It didn’t feel like an organic read change. It was inconsistent and was in fact a 180.

I know it’s old, but I’d also like to clear up my post based reads argument a bit. In 48 Shellyc votes for TBone for being quiet. Then in 51 states that in games she played scum tended to be quiet, but assumed it could also be from apathetic town. She then states Micc, Mini, and Redados seem pretty active. Almost disregarding them as scum since they’re active.

Redados did the same thing in 55. Unvoted Shelly because she started posting and votes for TBone because he wasn’t posting. At that time I hadn’t posted for a few pages but in 125 after seeing those posts/actions) I said what I said.

So I’m not talking about reads based on a post that a player made (which I assume is what Porkens was talking about in 247)... when I townread Micc in 241 because of 230 followed by 234 in which he gave reasons for his change in reads.

I’m talking about reads based on activity which is not alignment indicative and that can be faked by scum.

[ItalianoVD]

But I'll do better this time, I'm sure!

Why is this?

[ItalianoVD]

That’s the exact elaboration I was looking for. Appreciate you. I see you townread players like I do. I think we’ll get along just fine.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m liking Sunflower Guy so far. Welcome to the thread!

We still need to decide who exactly to eliminate though. So who will that be? I do notice a wagon on Redados, and I’m not getting very town-like vibes from him... I’ll just keep my vote here until I’m convinced otherwise.

VOTE: Redados

Welcome to the game word321. Happy to have you. Personally, I still think TBone and the Micc slot (You) is a town vs town interaction. Hopefully I’m right.

As of right now, I only see a couple players I could vote for instead of Red. I still feel a little questionable about Genius especially with his recent vote, so I could maybe go there. Porkens is the other player I’ve not been too high on. Everyone else seems like town to me. If any of my townread players are scum then kudos to you. I don’t really like the partnership thing, but if I had to guess I’d say Red/Porkens.

[ItalianoVD]

After 458, now I’m completely lost. That didn’t sound like a scum driven post. Oy ve.

[ItalianoVD]

I can do that.

VOTE: Genius

[ItalianoVD]

That’s L-1 @Shelly.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, why did you hop on this BW? without any further agreement / disagreement on the vote. There are 2 people on and i'd like to hear his defense before voting

Because it’s better than being on you imo. I work fast as you saw with my vote on you; I don’t do a lot of explaining. I don’t know, but your response is kinda weird. It’s different now because he’s at L1, but at the time of your post, he was only at 2 votes.

[ItalianoVD]

...and I was the second vote.

[ItalianoVD]

To expand further @Red

Genius’ vote on you kind of stood out to me. And it stood out to me whether you were scum or town. SJReaver had already unvoted you so no one was leading in votes. There were I think 4 wagons at 1 vote. To be fair George hadn’t updated the votes yet, but I assumed Genius thought you were at 2 votes still and was willing, almost eager to put you at 3 votes (E2). But you weren’t the leading wagon. There was no leading wagon. I can expand in more detail later if you want, but that’s what my initial thought process was. I was actually gonna vote Genius first right after my post about your 458, but Porkens beat me to it.

[ItalianoVD]

Yes, wait for a claim. One thing is for sure, if genius does flip scum, none of the people who just voted for him are is prtner.

I don't think we can know that. If he flips scum, like I said before, I think the partner is inexperienced too, so all bets are off

Well I can kinda get Porkens point, but I can’t speak for em, so if you could elaborate on that premise Porkens, that would be great. And if Genius flips scum you can’t rule out the idea that his partner is “experienced” also?

[ItalianoVD]

Correction, I see Porkens already voted before my 469 post, but the sentiments are still true. I was gonna be voting for Genius regardless.

[ItalianoVD]

really? I read it was E-1 but eLimination works

My bad. Didn’t even see your post.

[ItalianoVD]

Wait, wait, wait 472 was Shellyc? I thought it was Redados asking me this question. That’s why I responded the way I did.

[ItalianoVD]

So I gotta know. Why’d you ask me that Shelly?

I’ll tell you the way I perceived it now that I know it was you and not Redados.

BTW @Redados, forgive my confusion, but everything I said to you in my past several posts still stand.

[ItalianoVD]

@Shellyc: care to respond to my questions?

[ItalianoVD]

Genius not voting is off putting to me because I think scum can be afraid of how their votes will make people read them.

Really? Never heard of that idea.

TL;DR: My strongest read is on MiniMegabyte, who I think is scum because of a lack of game-advancing content. I also need to learn to condense my findings to a reasonable size.

Is there a reason you haven't voted this strong scum read you have?

as a general rule the game

will

stall out if there aren't people actively working to push it forward.

To both of you, I wasn’t planning on voting until I was really sure of the scum. Apparently, that’s a bad idea in this game. In light of this...

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

There’s probably a lot more evidence to be found before the day ends. Then again, it doesn’t hurt to vote now, I suppose.

Only a bad idea if you want to avoid suspicion?
Had you expressed a SR if mini prior to this vote?

I don’t have any reason to avoid suspicion, and I have not expressed my read prior to that post. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t misvoting town.

Originally, I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t misvoting. When you and Micc found it odd that I hadn’t voted, I decided to because it wouldn’t hurt.

Then

I realized that the information I already had was enough for a vote using my previous standards.

Genius not voting is off putting to me because I think scum can be afraid of how their votes will make people read them.

Very good point. I’ve noticed the uneasiness to solidify a decision from the start, which is also why I’m reading him the way I am.

It’s not an “uneasiness to solidify a decision”. I merely voted once I was sure that I had enough evidence. While I already had evidence, I was planning to wait for more. When it was pointed out to me that it was supposedly odd to not vote in the situation I was in, I decided to vote.

Question. What information were you looking to get? And what did Mini do at that point to give you the go ahead to vote? Well other than Micc and Porkens promoting you?

[ItalianoVD]

So this is the sample PM from the Page 1 Setup information

Welcome!

You are a Town Mason.

You know that [player] is Town-aligned. You also share a Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

With this being said I’ve ISO’d you multiple times to make sure I wasn’t reading unjustly and now I’ve ISO’d you again since your “claim” and I find no evidence of you giving any type of push or read towards anyone being town. I’m not entirely sure how the roles work but if you have been having conversations with another town player, why have you not given a readslist telling us that you feel townie towards X player more so than anyone else or something like that. Not just once but multiple times throughout the day so that it is more of an organic read. You did none of that. Zero. And now you expect us to believe that you have this role? Not sure, but I doubt scum would have picked up on a Mason role if you had given us that information.

So no, I don’t believe you and I think you are just trying to not get eliminated.

[ItalianoVD]

Here's a thought I just had: if he's the mason, there's no point in saving him, right? Because the wolves will just kill him. Which would suck, I guess. But it's already lost because he already revealed. Is there a hole in this logic?

Here’s the other thought. If we were to save him and he didn’t get night killed then he’d just get eliminated Day 2. I don’t believe any scum newbie or experienced would pass up on an obvious kill as that.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe you, for what its worth.

It’s not worth a lot if you don’t tell us why you believe him.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe you, for what its worth.

It’s not worth a lot if you don’t tell us why you believe him.

Stop. Don't do this.

Don’t do what?

[ItalianoVD]

Going fishing now??

Fishing? Nah, I was simply asking you to explain why you believed him.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe you, for what its worth.

It’s not worth a lot if you don’t tell us why you believe him.

Stop. Don't do this.

Don’t do what?

Don't push people to roleclaim PRs.

I see my question implied that I wanted TBone to claim. No, that wasn’t my intention at all. I agree that there shouldn’t be a counterclaim. I wanted TBone to explain why he believed him. I assume if I didn’t ask him he wouldn’t have given us 549.

[ItalianoVD]

After reading 560 & 561, which are good posts imo, my question is how does/did Genius’ claim help the town? For all I see we are in a much more perplexing position than favorable. Maybe I’m wrong. Can you ease my mind a bit?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay...

@Genius: I’m not sure how you do your reads and you have mentioned you are new, but I don’t know, wouldn’t it have been or be a better strategy to have reads for the entire playerlist, even if the majority is null? I just don’t get why only 3 people were in your reads.

If SJReaver is your partner, then that’s means, N0blenoob was your partner correct? None of you have interacted the entire day. To everyone: As Masons are you supposed to be distancing yourself from your partner? How does it help town. If Masons have no power other than the knowledge of the other Mason then I assume that there wouldn’t be caution to crumb their role since they can’t roleblock, or track, or protect, etc. Am I off in my thinking?

@SJReaver: If Genius is/was your partner why would you lead the town to believe that you are suspicious of him? Again how does this help the town?

[ItalianoVD]

Correct Mason play is to stay hidden and alive for as long as possible, Italiano.

Also, they cannot be scum fakeclaiming Masons. It's not possible. Mafia fakeclaiming Masons in this set-up is an autoloss.

Hmm. Okay. I don’t like it, but it is what it is.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright so with these new events in mind. I can assume:

Town:
Genius
SJReaver
Myself
Porkens
TBone
Mini
Red

That leaves Shelly and Word (Micc) as scum

[ItalianoVD]

I think its fine. The maf are stuck shooting masons for two nights so it’s essentially 5:2 right now.

Italiano I’m ok with Shelly but can you explain your reasons for a TR on mini?

Yeah, it’s as I said before, I only have our previous game together to go off of and she has played similar to last game where she was town, even down to not having really solid leads and “sheeping” others. I believe she is truly still trying to learn the game.

[ItalianoVD]

Well I guess I will get the wagon started on Shelly.

VOTE: Shellyc

Since Word is already at 2 I figure to put pressure on this slot and see what happens.

[ItalianoVD]

Eh, since there is no claim to be had I can wait a bit.

VOTE: unvote

Let’s squeeze reactions out as much as we can.

I like it. I learned that last game when scum self hammered and ruined the chance of further discussion.

[ItalianoVD]

If anyone is up to it, maybe give GG some tips on how to feel more townie?

May not mean much coming from me, but interact with the entire playerlist. It really goes a long way. That’s what I’ve found.

[ItalianoVD]

What does ropebait mean?

[ItalianoVD]

Wow I'm at E-1 all so suddenly. Also I just read the mason claim.UNVOTE: GeniusGamer
I am a

Vanilla Townie

and I don't know where this vote came from.
Suddenly Genius roleclaims and I'm voted because of PoE? Now Italiano starts this bandwagon ALL OF A SUDDEN.
I dont understand this universal townread on SJR. He replaced in, and just gets TR by everyone.
Also I feel like Redados could be a vote here

Alright so with these new events in mind. I can assume:

Town:
Genius
SJReaver
Myself
Porkens
TBone
Mini
Red

That leaves Shelly and Word (Micc) as scum

This list? how can you be sure that almost all are town at d1

I’m not actually sure, but now I know Genius and SJReaver are town, I know I am town. Mini and TBone I had already had listed as town. Redados’ recent responses, especially 258 had me change my thinking on him. Could he be scum, sure, but I’m not sure at this point. I had been feeling iffy about Porkens and I probably won’t be 100% comfortable until they flip, but the events that unfolded and the way they responded to them seemed town. He could be a master at looking town without trying to look town. From all that it was only really process of elimination.

I'm vanilla town. I'm just a town, on the verge of a mislynch.
Why is this game so unforgiving to newbies? I don't see why I'm locked scum by everyone.
SJR and Genius are town. Italiano is town-read by locked town.
Also I know that fakeclaim is impossible. Sorry I just realised SJR was the second mason.
I think word is like so much scummier here. Porkens I could see him as scum but not as much

All I see are reads lists putting me as scum, because of PoE.
SJR / GG are confirmed Masons.
Italiano is generally thought of as town
I don't know why the many options out there are not explored.
I think word321 / Porkens / Red is a way better option.
I'm new; I dont know how to defend myself.
But I WILL NOT SELF HAMMER. BECAUSE I AM TOWNIE, AND PLEASE STOP TUNNELING ME. I'LL FIGHT TILL THE END TO STOP THIS MISELIMINATE.
"not super unmotivating" hey what do you want me to do

Not everyone thinks you are scum, hence the people voting for word321 instead. Relax. Someone has to get limmed on Day 1.

You know, I got my VT role PM, went into this game as a total newbie, pushed a guy that I had no idea was Mason, and just got pushed. And I'm tunneled by confirmed town. I'm legit freaking out right now

I know scum can fake emotion and all that, but I don’t feel that with you Shellyc. I had townread you all game, but because of the actions in the game and through process of elimination there was nowhere else to go imo. And then after these last responses from, I would not feel comfortable eliminating you or have you get eliminated. This game is a mind jerk.

Intent to hammer Word321.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry that post of Redados was 458 not 258

[ItalianoVD]

Porkens isn’t voting for TBone.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry, I was out. Before I hammer I’m re-evaluating everything. As of right now Genius, SJ, myself, and Mini are who I am banking on being town. Almost 100%. I don’t know about everyone else, especially if Word flips town. Anyway.

VOTE: Word321

[ItalianoVD]

Can someone please hammer word already?

And it was a joke, Italiano.

I was referring to GeorgeBailey’s vote count.

[ItalianoVD]

And what was a joke?

[ItalianoVD]

We had 22 hours and word hadn’t even responded.

Why bother to declare intent when the person hasn’t had a chance to speak?

*if you aren’t going to give them the chance to speak?

What else is there to say? If we’re under the premise that Genius and SJ are the power roles, he’s not gonna counterclaim right? If he comes in and gives a compelling argument that he is town then what? I’d honestly just like to get this day over with.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh yeah, we got scum.

[ItalianoVD]

If Porkens hadn’t started the wagon on Genius, he (Genius) never would have claimed, which would have never caused SJ to confirm, which would have never allowed us to use process of elimination, which in turn got us the scum.

However, the action of Porkens late in the day (which is not alignment indicative) and the analysis of Redados regarding those actions seem a little off putting to me. Context is everything. Had this been normal circumstances then a hammer without waiting for a response would be looked at as bad or sketchy. In this game both town special roles were outed and after it was explained to me I had eliminated people as scum based off my early reads and the current happenings at that point in the game.

When I gave intent to hammer, I figured there would be no other claims and if Word did come in and most assuredly claim town, then what would have been the move at that point? No one said anything including the person who had a problem with my hammer about what to do or where to go in the event Word WAS town. My mind was exhausted and really couldn’t take anymore curveballs so I hammered.

But because of his defense of the move, the way his comments sounded while posting them, and other things I’ve had questions about I’m placing my vote down for now. It could possibly change, but I don’t know right now.

VOTE: Porkens

I would like to hear what everyone’s thoughts on Porkens is currently. With everything that has transpired.

[ItalianoVD]

Hmm. I’m a little surpised it wasn’t me. That’s nice, I guess...

Well why do you think they went for SJ and not you?

[ItalianoVD]

Sure no problem. I’ll give you that.

[ItalianoVD]

What makes me so scared is that I Cannot. Read. Porkens. Nothing they say is AI. All I can look at is actions. And Porkens did not find us the scum on Day One. Ugh.

Honestly it’s not there job to find scum. It’s all of our jobs, well as town. I don’t like this post.

[ItalianoVD]

*their

[ItalianoVD]

As a matter of fact I don’t like the doubt that you seem to be brewing.

[ItalianoVD]

@TBone, that’s really all you have to say?

[ItalianoVD]

Alright, as expected. You make a very compelling argument and if I wasn’t me I’d probably believe you. I will make my case against you. At that point the town will decide who to vote for. I have no problem getting eliminated if it means you are taken out the next day.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright, as expected. You make a very compelling argument and if I wasn’t me I’d probably believe you. I will make my case against you. At that point the town will decide who to vote for. I have no problem getting eliminated if it means you are taken out the next day.

Wow, you must have a lot of confidence in your case if you are that sure I'm scum. I look forward to reading it.

Well I’m gonna state my case and then I’m gonna defend myself and that’ll be it. Whatever happens at that point is what it is.

[ItalianoVD]

Chill Shelly. We have time. I’m writing.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright. So I’m gonna make my case for Porkens first. Then I’ll be defending myself against Porkens case in another post. Anyway.

I was iffy about Porkens from about page 3 or 4 and as the day progressed I just felt more and more uneasy about him. I didn’t initially assume it was a scumread. I thought it could have been because of him having a power role, which is why I didn’t really say much. From experience village/town power roles can potentially look suspicious as wolf/scum power roles. But it seemed and looked more sketchy/scummy the more he interacted with the player list . That’s when I began doing deep dives into his ISOs and interactions. It’s interesting how he highlighted everyone else’s but his own interactions with MiccWord.

Here it goes:

Spoiler:

A weird opening post 6. I know it’s not alignment indicative, but the games I’ve seen on here player’s usually will vote in their first post in. Not always, but a good majority of games I have read and the two I have played in, it has been the case.

Then he votes for Redados in 20. I figured it was RVS, which was why my question to Porkens in 24 was asked. Partly in jest, partly real. His response in 27 was enough for me. What happened next was weird to me.

Porkens wanted to put pressure on Redados for unvoting Genius. Okay fine. But also in 27 he did not believe Redados’ answer to his initial question. He said this:

”2 votes isn’t close to day ending, and pressure promotes discussion. This is not a good reason to unvote. Why did you really unvote?”

That’s when he votes for Shellyc with Redados literally several posts later without having said he believed him or that he accepted his answer, which is kind of weird to follow the vote of someone you few may be scum. There also wasn’t an explanation to why he had voted for Shellyc. His vote stayed on her until page 19 in 467 when he voted for Genius.

I have to assume that Porkens voted for Shellyc for similar reasons Redados did since he never explained why. That reason is not posting. After Shellyc posted Redados backed off of her. Porkens did not. I make mention of this in 309.Then in 312 he asked: “What have I said about shellac that strikes you as disengenuous?”

My response in 322 was met with no answer/response. Unless you wanna say 325 was a response. I don’t think it was.

For me Porkens scumread on Shellyc was not organic and was forced. He voted for her on page 2 for no reason obvious to anyone and then spent almost 17 pages trying to prove that she was scum and didn’t understand why I WASN’T scumreading her. Really never even giving my reasons much thought.

Porkens spent much of Day 1 asking questions and pressuring different people, but never gave reads and never really opened up about anything unless prompted. When he was questioned and pressured he either didn’t answer or answered with a question. Particularly I felt he was being defensive or purposely difficult in his interaction with N0blenoob on page 5.

To be fair in 204 he did ask “does anyone want to ask me questions.” However Redados asked him who he thought was scum. He didn’t say Shellyc who had been voting for at the time. He said: “I don’t know. I think everyone who I’ve engaged has done a reasonable job explaining themselves, and I haven’t really been thinking too hard about alignment yet. I’m hoping that when I look back I’ll see some clues.”

Here’s the irony in his push onto me. He seems to forget 208 where he “feels” Micc is town and “feels” I am scum based on my avatar.

In 247 He never mentioned Micc at all. He had a read for T Bone, Genius, myself, Shelly, Mini, N0ble and Red somewhat. But where was Micc. And he never came back to correct it. But actually read the list. Everyone is suspicious on his list. That is a common and historic scum tell. Shade everyone and don’t have a solid read. If you are suspicious of everyone than you can’t get caught in voting/read inconsistencies because you’ll point back to the list and say you had precedent for voting that read.

In post 285 he asks Shellyc what she found scummy in Micc. She never answered and he never went back to it.

In [post]363 he says this: “Well we have just under 3 days left now. We should probably move toward consolidating one or two wagons. I really do not feel like Redados is a good elimination today. I'm just OK with Mini. Micc I am not feeling at all. ShellyC and NobleNoob would be my top two choices.”

Funny how he was not feeling Micc at all here which makes me think he wasn’t going to eliminate him no matter what. So then how can he shade me for placing Micc on my no elimination list? Smh.

In 692 I mentioned:

”What else is there to say? If we’re under the premise that Genius and SJ are the power roles, he’s not gonna counterclaim right? If he comes in and gives a compelling argument that he is town then what? I’d honestly just like to get this day over with.”

If that was a wrong way to feel then my bad, but I genuinely was exhausted and wanted the day to be over. I was extremely excited that Word was scum. Porkens not so much. I’m probably pushing it here but Porkens’ reaction to my hammer made me feel like he was upset that we had hammered his partner and was reacting to it instead of a concerned townie trying to be genuine. Notice the difference between SJReavers response to Word and Porkens.

SJReaver: 681

Porkens: 689 690 691

All these things make me believe at best Porkens is scum and at worst he is a bad townie. Either way it doesn’t help us especially with his incorrect read on me.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry guys. I didn’t have it typed up, but I had it in my head. Kinda sorry it took so long.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright so here is my defense to Porkens case.

So let’s start from the conclusion that I am NOT MiccWord’s partner and townie. Something you failed to do; only framing your case with confirmation bias.

Spoiler:

Micc votes Italiano in what seems like RVS.

Nope. Wrong. Micc moved out of RVS

because

of the vote for me. He said he didn’t like my question to you about why you were questioning Redados. I thought it was a fair suspicion after he explained in more detail in 49.

However, Italiano asks Micc to confirm that vote was serious.

Nope. Didn’t ask him if his vote was serious. I asked him to explain why my question to you was unproductive.

Micc replies that it was, in fact, serious.

Not sure what conversation you were reading but our interaction went nothing like that.

This is how the interaction actually went.
- I vote for Micc in RVS
- Micc votes for me because of a question I asked Porkens. This leaves RVS
- I give reason for what I did
- I then ask why he felt the way he felt
- He explained why
- I accepted the explanation

In Micc's reads list, he simply has Italiano down as "seems pretty town."[/i]

Interesting how you left out the rest. He continued

“the unsureness about SE's in particular feels genuine. also thought his reaction to my push out of RVS was good. 123 is a thought from someone who is legitimately scum hunting.”

After word replaces in, There is no interaction with Italiano, at all.

I don't think Word mentions him once.

This is nai. Word didn’t mention anyone but TBone. Based on your argument anyone of us can be MiccWord’s partner.

Italiano does not find Micc's vote on himself suspicious, although he tells us that he assumes it is a serious vote.

Why would I find it suspicious? Unless it actually was. He gave a reason why he voted and in my eyes at the time it was a legitimate one.

However, instead of pursuing anything related to that, Italiano pivots to Red.

Meanwhile, Micc confirms that his vote signifies a departure from RVS (ie his vote on Italiano is serious) but then starts focusing on T-Bone.

Why don't either of them follow up on their interactions?

I can’t speak for Micc, but I’m not gonna waste my time trying to convince someone I’m town when I can be trying to find scum.

Italiano says that he "isn't feeling" Micc 74 but that "the wording sounds townie but I don't know." and then later sticks Micc in the "null" zone in his reads list.

Yeah well I didn’t like his post in 74 because defending is not alignment indicative. Unfortunately he never answered me. The reason I said it seemed town is because his wording could come from town, but the logic didn’t seem right. I placed him in the null zone because I didn’t know how to read him or how to feel about him.

After that, Italiano talks with NN, Red, and GG. Not long from there he says micc's "reevaluating that way makes me think town" and puts him in a no-elimination group. Finally, Italiano questions Shelly on her vote for Micc, stating that they are both town reads.

I just don’t like how you are leaving out the context. This is what I posted in 241: “For Micc to re-evaluate the way he has me thinking town. My last two games scum didn’t do this or if they did it felt fake or forced. I could be wrong, but I’m not feeling that here.”

My first two games players who kept their vote on me without evaluation turned out to be scum on the other hand players who re-evaluated why they were voting for me turned out to be town so what else do I assume in this case? You tell me.

Interestingly enough I WAS wrong, but at the time I felt it was a good town read. I’m assume Micc did it on purpose to get in my good graces. It worked.

Towards the end of the day, Italiano agrees with SJR's reads list but warns "I'm suspicious of people who townread me ".

I'm not sure if this is pocketing or LAMIST or what, but it's something.

I am suspicious of people who townread me for no reason. In this instance I didn’t understand the reason and wanted SJ to elaborate on it which she did.

As I said though I’m suspicious regardless of the alignment read. So either an unfounded scum or town read I will question. Key word is unfounded. If I think it’s a legitimate reason than I can only go by the person’s word. I can’t speculate into what they actually. I have to take it for face value.

About the time Word replaced in, Italiano was leaning in to ShellyC. He welcomes Word, and calls both he and T-Bone town. Then, in 585, Italiano says scum are between Shelly and Word, but votes for Shelly. There are no posts from word for some time. Italiano publicly talks himself out of voting for shelly and hammers Word.

Yes, at the time Genius and SJReaver had come out as the town Masons. I had town reads for TBone, Mini, SJReaver, Genius, myself. I placed you and Redados as town due to the previous posting and reaction to the Masons coming out. So through process of elimination I ended up on Shellyc and Word. In 604 I mentioned putting pressure on the Shellyc slot to see what happened. She got to L1 and that’s when she pretty much lost it. In 674 I let Shelly know based on her response I wouldn’t be comfortable voting her so I decided to go onto the other slot (based off the process of elimination) I didn’t know for sure that Word was scum, but I was hoping the process of elimination was correct and he was scum. The latter part of the day was confusing and was throwing all my reads out of whack, which is why I had to keep reevaluating them. It was crazy.

I believe this is correct. There are a smattering of other associative as I've described, but in the unlikely event that this flips town, I'll reevaluate at that time.

Sure you will. If I am eliminated and I prove to be town what will be your plan then? Make a case on Mini or TBone or Shelly again. What are you gonna keep making wrong cases until it’s Lylo?

[ItalianoVD]

Alright so as I said there is my case and my defense. At this point it’s in the hands of the town. Whatever happens happens. If it comes to me I WILL flip green. In any event we will need a direction to go. I still have strong town vibes for TBone and Mini. Genius is an obvious town slot. And Shellyc, based off her L1 responses has me thinking town. Which leaves Porkens and Redados.

I could very well be wrong about Porkens, but I don’t believe I am.

[ItalianoVD]

In conclusion I feel like a partner is plausible from Porkens' ISO. Both Italiano and Porkens are possible partners according to what I saw.

And that’s fair, but if I do get eliminated make sure you eliminate Porkens the next day. It would only be fair and consistent.

[ItalianoVD]

Which leaves Porkens and Redados.

Why haven't you considered Redados as a possible candidate for suspect? How about the unlikely event that both Porkens and Italiano are town

This is a weird post. Did you mean to write this? Lol

[ItalianoVD]

Hmmmm. From my PoV one scum is between Italiano and Porkens.
If Italiano flips scum, game over.
When Italiano flips townie, we should elim Porkens, right

Fixed that for you.

[ItalianoVD]

You quoted this:

Which leaves Porkens and Redados.

I had literally just said that I thought Redados was a suspect along with Porkens

That’s when you posted this.

Why haven't you considered Redados as a possible candidate for suspect? How about the unlikely event that both Porkens and Italiano are town

Do you see how I find that a weird post?

[ItalianoVD]

My suspicion is based on his interactions with flipped scum. If we had flipped ShellyC instead, I probably wouldn't think IDV was particularly scummy.

I'd be willing to look at that game if you want to link it.

[ItalianoVD]

So in the event Porkens is townie, I’d like to give my thoughts; since I would be the next elimination.

With that being said I just can’t bring myself to believe it to be TBone or Mini. If Shellyc appealed to emotion as scum she did a good job and deserves to win. If either TBone or Mini is scum then they also deserve to win because I just don’t see it. We already know what Genius is. Redados would be the only one left. This is only my own analysis though and could all be completely wrong and in that case I’m lost. But that would be the direction if I wasn’t Porkens or myself.

@Porkens: We have to prepare as if we are both wrong. A scenario where we are both town

Also could someone else look at this and read it several times and tell me what you feel about it?

My suspicion is based on his interactions with flipped scum. If we had flipped ShellyC instead, I probably wouldn't think IDV was particularly scummy.

I'd be willing to look at that game if you want to link it.

After you guys tell me what you think about it I will tell you what I think and you can let me know if I’m off or onto something.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh wow. I see that Porkens is now claiming Shellyc is the last scum now. If you aren’t scum you are not helping the town with this back and forth. I was only guessing with my last point in 799, but it appears that is your plan.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, I like it. Let’s make a death pact and then solve the game from the grave.

Okay let’s do it. What are you thinking?

[ItalianoVD]

My plan to what? Win after I’m dead?

No, your plan to just keep making wrong cases.

[ItalianoVD]

If Shellyc appealed to emotion as scum she did a good job and deserves to win.

I stated what I felt when I was at E-1. Because I fear a mislim. I want to avoid a mislim at all costs, especially my own.
Someone declared intent to hammer, I didn't want mafia to get the advantage day 1.
It was all genuine emotion. Not "appeal to emotion", as you put it. I was afraid and that was the defense for me to avoid that miselimination.

Yes. That was my exact point. I felt genuine with your response to being at L1, that’s why I unvoted you and at this point I am willing to put you in the non elimination group.

[ItalianoVD]

I've given my reads of the 4, what are yours?

Well given that scenario I don’t think anything changes as far as my reads are concerned. I still have:

Redados >> Shellyc >> TBone >> Mini.

In that order

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, okay, okay. Let’s push the brakes for a second. Who OMGUSed who now? I voted you first and had been You caused me then voted me. I then cased you and defended myself. Chill out, why do you keep framing things so incorrectly. Your case against me is faulty coming from you because it incriminates yourself. You don’t have the have the moral authority to have the case you do and you act as if it’s foolproof and cannot be poked with any holes.

[ItalianoVD]

I do think, though that you are being genuine.

Well then care to explain why you didn’t mention that here?

I’m not sure how I feel about shelly’s reaction.

[ItalianoVD]

Great, thank you. I think Shelly and Mini are fairly obvious reads, but I'd like to dig in to Redados and TBone. Why do you find Red scummier than TBone?

I mean, you still have to ask? I’ve been an open book the whole game. If you still don’t know why I find Red scummier than TBone than you haven’t been paying attention.

[ItalianoVD]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

[ItalianoVD]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

Now you are just making things up out of whole cloth.

Am I?

[ItalianoVD]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

What is this though?

This is what I see from Porkens. My perception of his play.

[ItalianoVD]

Só italiano your angle tomorrow is going to be “a Zoe porkens was town well how could I have known that? His play made no sense as town I guess he was just bad.”

Hopefully no one falls for that.

Mark this down and quote it. If you flip town I will personally lead the way to get myself eliminated. First vote and I will get everyone to follow suit. Day 3 will probably one of the quickest days in this sites history.

[ItalianoVD]

Give me some specifics instead of "he's playing bad". How do you know?

At the very least part of my argument has been that Porkens is playing well. So at best this is lazy, at worst, this is what Porkens pointed out in #937...a pre-excuse for if Porkens flips town.

1) Can you explain OMGUS to me. If I was the first to vote for Porkens, how am I OMGUSing him? Are you talking about the case or the vote?
2) His perception and conclusion in 923 of what you said in 920 is very strange. I’ve seen him take what people say and then create an elaborate conclusion that doesn’t match what that person said. Instead of asking what they meant he goes with his own conclusion and then frames it that way.
3) He has not once talked about the case I have on him or the fact that he is scumreading me for something he himself has been guilty of. It was the same thing with Shelly and Red. When Shelly was sheeping Red he scumread her, but when Red sheeped him, he gave it a pass saying that “he’s agreeing with me”. It’s not consistent.
4) As I stated in my defense, he has left things out of quotes and generalized statements made by people without including the context.

So as I said, his play has been erratic, unobservant and the perception of what people say is poor and inconsistent. I didn’t say that as an excuse or a way to wiggle out of elimination, I said that as a reason at least more of one of why I think he’s scum.

On that note I see I should have explained it better. I was annoyed at the time I posted it.

[ItalianoVD]

And I was annoyed by the things Porkens was saying not by the death pact. Wanted to say it before anyone else did.

[ItalianoVD]

[quote="In post 766, Porkens"]My suspicion is based on his interactions with flipped scum.

If we had flipped ShellyC instead, I probably wouldn't think IDV was particularly scummy.

I made mention of this before. Is this a scumslip? Pay attention to the bolded.

Picture this:
I didn’t vote for Shellyc. I actually jumped off of her and put my vote onto Word.

But let’s say for the sake of Porkens’ hypothetical before I hammered Word Shelly’s wagon advanced and she got eliminated. Then let’s say she flipped scum.

My move OFF of her would have made me extremely suspicious, but Porkens made that hypothetical statement without taking into account the possibility of Shelly being scum, which is not congruent with his previous line of “My suspicion is based on his interactions with flipped scum.”

To me this implies that he knows she is town.

[ItalianoVD]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

Italiano, what does this mean?

It was for Porkens and it means what it says.

You can read the full interaction here:

934 936 937 939 940 941 943 944 945 946 947

[ItalianoVD]

I think she’s town based on the fact that Micc was scum and I believe you are his partner. Oops!

Huh? But you didn’t say that. You specifically said that you wouldn’t have scumread me if we had eliminated Shelly instead of Word. The way it looks to me is you couldn’t have possibly known that and wouldn’t have said that unless you are/were coming from a place that you know/knew she is/was town.

[ItalianoVD]

I agree that sometimes what Porkens has said has been erratic. For example, he thought my lack of paraphrasing was a scumtell.

I'm not sure he's as bad as your described though

That’s not necessarily erratic imo. That’s really just a read and that‘s nai. What’s erratic was him voting and pushing for you, but saying he didn’t know who the scum was when asked.

[ItalianoVD]

ItalianoVD, how much mafia have you played offsite?

I’ve played the wolf game version of mafia on a boxing forum called WeBL since 2006. This style and version is very different from what I’m used to, but the deduction, analysis, tells, etc is the same since it’s the same game really. I’m still trying to get the hang of this style and all the thousand terms and abbreviations.

[ItalianoVD]

Just so everyone knows, if Porkens ends up flipping town I will personally lead the push to my elimination no matter what.

On that note are we waiting for Porkens to come back from V/LA before hammering?

[ItalianoVD]

We have three days to lim. We're going to lim Porkens. Porkens is V/LA. I'm thinking about declaring intent to hammer with what - 36 hours left in the game? It seems like this day is much slower than day one.

Oh you answered my question.

[ItalianoVD]

T Bone already said he could hammer in the morning, whenever that is for him.

[ItalianoVD]

ItalianoVD, are you really going to champion your own wagon tomorrow?

Yup. If you flip town then yes I will. I am a man of my word.

[ItalianoVD]

No more or less of reach than your case on me.

[ItalianoVD]

But to actually answer your question, I don’t know. I’m leaning more towards the 50%+ side but I honestly don’t know.

[ItalianoVD]

Redados.

[ItalianoVD]

PoE, gut, NKA.

Why do feel the need to clarify that it’s not a trap? I didn’t take it that way.

[ItalianoVD]

I guess I can ask you why you have Red over TBone now in 997.

[ItalianoVD]

So?

[ItalianoVD]

We all died shelly lol

[ItalianoVD]

hammer away.

So... is anybody going to hammer Porkens?

Yeah don’t be scared. We already know where we’re going if we’re wrong.

[ItalianoVD]

Nike.

[ItalianoVD]

If T-Bone tries to stop the wagon on ItalianoVD tomorrow, flip T-Bone immediately.

If you’re town, don’t worry. I’m not letting anybody NOT kill me. With that said this doesn’t make sense to me:

1) Why would scum!TBone try to stop a wagon on a townie?
2) Why would town!TBone try to stop a wagon on scum?

[ItalianoVD]

I can see town!TBone stopping a wagon on a townie.

[ItalianoVD]

Does he?

[ItalianoVD]

Make it happen Mini.

[ItalianoVD]

Gosh, that really sucks. I was like 85% sure Porkens was scum. Not sure why you decided to play so weird Porkens. Don’t worry though, I will be joining you shortly.

As promised
VOTE: Italiano

Now that that’s out of the way. I still believe Mini and TBone are town.

Through process of elimination Redados and Shelly are less town than Mini and TBone imo.

With that said. Let’s get this wagon going and someone hammer it quickly. This day can be over like now.

The game will be in Lylo at that point, with 2 townies, 1 scum. At that point, it should be pretty obvious who the last mafiascum is.

The night kill should definitely tell us who the scum is.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, unvote. What is wrong with you?

Okay I guess. I thought this was the thing to do since I was wrong about Porkens and because of our pact.

And after you unvote, I want you to quote this post and answer this question. Italiano, are you a townie?

Well yes I am Vanilla town, it’s what I’ve been saying and alluding to this entire game. But that’s my word against the towns suspicions. The truest confirmation is by flipping. Once I flip town than that suspicion can be to rest and the final scum can be found/killed.

[ItalianoVD]

But this is interesting. Shelly, you were quick to vote for me, without even a hesitation and without using actual logic. I actually wanted to vote for myself to see the town's reactions and you ma'am, your reaction was less than ideal. Your reaction was what I was looking for, not you exactly, but your reaction. It didn't matter who it came from, it was the response I assumed would come from scum. So with all that said.

VOTE: Shellyc

[ItalianoVD]

Or...we can just eliminate the final scum today? Would you like to unvote and try that instead?

Sure.

[ItalianoVD]

I think it's Red or Mini. scum!shellyc has nothing to gain from that vote.

Sure they do. It helps towards their wincon and would in fact get the gamestate to Lylo. I'd actually rather do that, so I may eventually vote for myself again.

[ItalianoVD]

I think that you should unvote because you're at E-1. Let's wait for T-Bone to make his case, which he previously indicated would be on me, then we can make a decision.

This is a super interesting reaction. Hmm.

Can you elaborate? To be honest I don't see scum of any experience level TRYING to stop a townie from getting eliminated. If Redados is scum he knows I am not. Logically it doesn't make sense for him to not vote for me or to make it seem like he is concerned or hesitant about getting me eliminated.

[ItalianoVD]

No, think it through. Does it get her to a LimLo state that she could then win?

In this instance sure, because you townread her and mini hasn't been confident with her reads and decisions.

[ItalianoVD]

Are you planning on voting Red today? Or Mini?

[ItalianoVD]

Let’s think about it. This is for everyone.

One of us is scum. What is the logical play for scum at this point? They’ve lost their partner and there has already been 1 miselimination. They are feeling the pressure. Townies not so much. We have 1 miselimination left before Lylo.

The ideal scenario would be to get another miselimination which helps their wincon and doing so with as little attention on them as possible.

I know I’m probably missing it, but I don’t see another scenario that makes sense to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Let’s also give scenarios of what each of us would do with a given role.

As town, I would be re-reading and re-analyzing everything searching for scum, but if my elimination could help find scum, I would 100% be down with that as is the case here.
As scum, I would wait for whatever case is the best and ride that wagon. Also this game would have gone a lot different for me if I was scum. I’m not great at it.

[ItalianoVD]

@Redados: the site url is webl.vivi.com so not sure if you went there.

It’s a very antiquated forum, but here’s the steps...

Create a gym. Doesn’t matter what it’s called, just so that you can read the forums.

Once you do that I will link you to two games. One where I am wolf and the other where I am villager.

[ItalianoVD]

@T-Bone: What did you mean by “the only player that wants that is scum!italiano” in 1055 I wasn’t sure what you were referring to.

[ItalianoVD]

Cool, cool. It’s a major read so prepare, lol.

Wolf

https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185615
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185620
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185624 This is where I got lynched by the village.

Villager

https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185425
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185439
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185445
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185449
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185450
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185456
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185462
https://webl.vivi.com/cgi-bin/Forum.fpl ... _id=185463

[ItalianoVD]

I know I’m town and I know the scum, whoever they are, knows I’m town so for reasons I’ve already stated if a person votes for me too easily my antennas go up. And I didn’t disregard your reasons for thinking I’m scum, it’s fair.

You also seem to forget the gamestate. As the second piece of a death pact, I want to honor my commitment. Again I have nothing to hide and if my elimination gets scum then I have no issue with it. Something you will eventually know about me the more games we play together or more games you read is that I am okay with getting eliminated IF and the keyword is IF it makes sense. You may see it in the games you read from WeBL that regardless of my alignment I will more often than not accept my fate without fighting IF it makes sense and I feel that my team can win. If my team can’t win, I will still accept my fate as no amount of fighting will change it. In this case I feel that even with my elimination town can still win. What scum would say that? Come on.

If you feel I am scum than vote for me. Me flipping town will ease the towns suspicions and maybe it will lead the town to get the actual scum. I’m probably wrong as I was with Porkens, but at this point I’m just as lost as you and willing to do something

[ItalianoVD]

I’ve done as much analyzing as I can do. Apparently we cannot agree on who to eliminate.

@Shellyc: you’re right. I don’t know. I can’t give an answer that makes real sense. I let TBone and Red talk me out of it. I will vote for myself again, but no one wants to pull the trigger, so this day will be prolonged and boring again. And maybe my vote on you is wrong, maybe not. I’m kinda lost. I did say I’d be voting for Red, but him not hammering me and being reluctant that I be at L1 made me question and rethink that slot again, which is why I am voting you right now. Mini hasn’t given her thoughts yet. We’re at somewhat of a standstill.

Listen I will do a final analysis and give you my final thoughts and then I will layeth the smacketh down on myself and we can move on. Maybe I can count on Mini to hammer me since TBone and Red don’t want to do it.

[ItalianoVD]

First UNVOTE: shellyc

Is there anyway to determine what Word’s partner did or will it be 100% speculation.

I mean did Word’s partner vote for him (TBone,

SJReaver

, shellyc, Redados, Myself) or did they not vote for him (

Porkens

, Mini)

We know Porkens and SJ have flipped town. TBone was the first on the MiccWord slot. While it is a possibility that he could be MiccWord’s partner, it’s not likely. I’m still trying to understand Porkens take that if TBone tries to thwart my wagon that we should eliminate him. shellyc pretty much claimed townie on Day 1 when she was at L1. I’m not sure how likely it is that shellyc and Word decided to vote for each other in the event one of them died. I ant to lean towards Word placing his vote on townie, but I just don’t know. Redados’ reaction to me being at L1 seemed townie, but the reason why he didn’t hammer could have been because of what TBone said (knowing a hammer on a townie would get him eliminated the next day). It’s a possibility but not sure how likely. Again why would scum TRY to not miseliminate? I have a poor showing in interaction and read with the MiccWord slot. I will take it because I genuinely thought Micc was townie from my perspective. Hindsight is 20/20 but I’d probably do it the same way if I had to do it again. I hammered Word through PoE and we were pretty lucky. I am not his partner and I didn’t hammer him on purpose to get towncred. As I said we were lucky. You can choose to believe me or not, but if you don’t, don’t just say you do. Vote.

Mini hasn’t actually been on a deciding day closing wagon on both Day 1 & Day 2. At first I was willing to let it go because Porkens wasn’t on a day closing wagon on Day 1 and TBone wasn’t on a day closing wagon on Day 2, but our vote is the greatest weapon against scum and Mini has not used it twice.

To me I don’t count votes that are throughout the day because those can always change and usually do. I look more at the close of day votes and the deciding votes on wagon. So even though Mini was on wagons and did vote for people off and on throughout both days she wasn’t the deciding vote or on a day closing wagon. However, I don’t know how to feel about that because it’s really nai imo.

[ItalianoVD]

Let me clarify. I don’t mean to say on a “day closing wagon” per se, but voting on a wagon when the day closes is more of what I’m trying to get across.

[ItalianoVD]

I honestly can’t remember about D1 but D2 I know I was really unsure about it as everyone kept talking and let’s face it if I had hammered in the middle of discussion you would probably be calling me scum right now

Sorry, I worded that wrong. I tried to clarify it. What I mean by not voting is that as the day closed on both days you weren’t voting for anyone. I wasn’t meaning for you to hammer, again sorry for wording it weird.

[ItalianoVD]

And what is towntold? Scumtold? What is this?

[ItalianoVD]

The death pact is dumb and only helpful to scum.

To be fair Porkens did say as much. He also said to never do it, but he was so sure I was scum that he was willing to do it. If I was scum I never would have agreed to it and I wouldn’t have been as confident as I was to do it knowing I didn’t have anything to hide. Like I said if I was scum I probably would have been eliminated Day 1 as I am not great at it because I have a hard time lying and deceiving and it shows through.

[ItalianoVD]

And what is towntold? Scumtold? What is this?

what do you mean?
Towntold = slipped as town, making posts that would only make sense if the poster has a town perspective
Scumtold = slipped as scum, making posts that won't be possible from a town perspective

Okay that is fairly easy to understand. Thanks.

@TBone: what specifically did you see from myself, shelly, and now Red that has you thinking we towntold? I mean you said it but where is your evidence of it? I’m curious.

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah Redados, it is wayyy different on here. Our meta is very freestyle. Not just our meta but our setup and flow of the game is like night and day to here. There is a player on there that claims wolf everytime regardless of his actual alignment and we have to wait for a seer check to see if it’s true or not.

I think a lot of the stuff on there would get us lynched on here and vice versa. As you alluded to, it is why I voted for you early on because of your readslist. I’ve caught wolves doing that exact thing over on WeBL plenty of times, so I figured.

So when I say I am still trying to learn the ins and outs of this game you can at least believe me on that. I know it’s not alignment indicative and doesn’t prove I’m town and disprove I’m scum at least you don’t have to question if that part is genuine.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano - your day three gambit LOL. Town!Italiano fakeclaimed seer and then immediately led a successful lynch on the real seer lmao and then DIDN'T GET IMMEDIATELY LIMMED lmao. I'm literally chuckling

I'm done reading the games. AWFUL gambit Italiano hahahaha. Geez. I'm feeling Italiano as town but can't point to a specific thing that makes me feel that way.

Lol, yeah things went a lot differently in reality than it did in my head that game.

BTW the link to your game is taking me to the main forum. Do I have to make an account?

[ItalianoVD]

Something I now see that Porkens was trying to allude to was the way Shelly sheeps. She writes her reads and thoughts as if she came up with it, but literally says what another person says almost word for word. For me it’s a bit different from the way Mini has done it or may do it. I still stand on the basis that that’s not necessarily alignment indicative, but I will say it’s very weird. Why do you do that Shelly?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay, so looks like Mini is the vote for today. If you are scum Mini, kudos to you. Your play on being inexperienced worked for you.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Shellyc

[ItalianoVD]

Hmm. Redados was killed. That’s an interesting kill. Let’s see if TBone comes in and tries to say I’m scum. I’m leaning towards TBone at the moment, but I wanna hear what you have to say Shelly.

[ItalianoVD]

Shellyc. I voted for you because I was fairly certain Mini was town and I was only a little ess sure of you so I sheeped Mini. I also thought to put the votes at two to have TBone decide who to go for. I didn’t want to say anything that persuaded his decision so I just voted.

I don’t think we need to overthink this Shelly. If we both use common sense and we can believe that we’re both town then it’s obvious who we need to vote for.

[ItalianoVD]

The night kill was really weird though. Why would scum kill Redados here?

What kill would have made more sense to you? Or been less weird?

[ItalianoVD]

Honestly I thought I would be killed myself.

[ItalianoVD]

No, that’s up to you. What I’m saying is that the more we try to analyze and make sense of what doesn’t make sense the more confused we’ll be. I’m not gonna allow myself to do it anymore.

TBone hasn’t done anything scummy up to this point until he allowed Redados to sheep him and then went and killed him. I am leaning towards us both being town so that’s it for me. By all means do your iso for both TBone and I, but I don’t need anymore evidence. If you really are the scum then congratulations. I don’t believe so though.

VOTE: T-Bone

I won’t be changing my vote.

[ItalianoVD]

Hey Redados came back from the dead. Hey brother. The game is not over though until George comes in.

[ItalianoVD]

@T-Bone. I’m not sure if shellyc is scum, I am leaning towards no. I know I am not so that only leaves you. If Shelly is the scum then as I’ve said already great game. If we are right and you are scum, you also played a great game and you and MiccWord had a great strategy.

[ItalianoVD]

All in all whatever the outcome is and had major major fun and this playerlist was awesome!

[ItalianoVD]

*I* not and. :palmface:

[ItalianoVD]

Are you lying T-Bone?

[ItalianoVD]

Basically, do you have the ability to lie as scum? If so then I chose correctly. If you are telling the truth then I assume we need to vote for Shelly, yes?

[ItalianoVD]

I’d rather not have George come in and end the game without T-Bone’s response. So for now...

UNVOTE: T-Bone

[ItalianoVD]

Okay Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure there was an answer before the game I was actually over.

VOTE: T-Bone

[ItalianoVD]

Great game Shelly! Wow.

[ItalianoVD]

Either way, how did u arrive at the conclusion that T-Bona simply decided to bus me/micc?

Ego.

"The super SE is doing a super SE play and I'm going to out-think it!" feels better than "I've miseliminated all my teammates because I've been tricked by a scum playing their first game."

You’re absolutely right. Ego. Going deeper than that you don’t know who to trust especially in lylo and I had been overthinking everything. That is a HUGE flaw in my game. I overthink. I thought getting more reps in could possibly help, but not sure how to overcome it.

[ItalianoVD]

If you're town, don't vote first in LimLo. Would have improved it. Should have allowed Shelly to vote for me first.

Other than that, don't get down on yourself. I should have made it a point to explain why this was a good final 3 for scum!Shelly. And not let her get into my blindspot. Ah well no big deal.

I think all you newbies played great, whether you were with us for a single day or through most of the game. I hope to see you in other games on site, whether it be more newbie games, or in other queues.

Thanks. Appreciate the help as always man. I will definitely take everything you and Porkens said (sorry Porkens) to heart. Do you or does anyone have any pointers or ideas for overthinking?

[ItalianoVD]

Nah dude, I over do it as town all the time. You didn't do anything really wrong, except thinking that you were gonna follow through on the death pact. That's about it.

I think what will help you long term, is not getting rattled if people read you as scum. It's gonna happen. If you let it get to you, it wastes time, and gets you off your game. When people scumread me, I don't spend a lot of time addressing it. I will continue to play my game instead and let the playerlist come to their own conclusions. I feel if I'm town, it'll shine through with my play, and if I'm scum, well I can make my town play shine through. I can't do either of those things though if I'm arguing with someone over scumreading me.

By that same token, I don't argue with people I scumread either. That's not productive in my opinion. I do subscribe to the theory that not every post a player makes is alignment indicative, and arguments aren't alignment indicative, therefore, I feel it is counter productive.

I'm not saying you should model your play after me or anything. You do what you feel works for you. If that means reading completed games to read someone, go for it. What works for me works for me in part because most players aren't doing the same things I'm doing. And I have blindspots too because of the way I play.

Really I'd like you to take away from this is a) always trust your own alignment and don't feel like you should ever need to self-sacrifice and B) know when it is time to move on from a line of posting.

That’s great insight. Really. I appreciate it. I especially like the premise of not arguing if 1) you know your alignment (provided you’re town) and 2) you feel someone is scum. It does waste time and clouds you from seeing things clearly. Thanks again. Awesome game. Thanks for running it George. Beans are uhh... they’re great.

[ItalianoVD]

Beans, beans, the magical fruit. The more you eat, the more you catch scum!

Love it.