Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

Lol

To his POV

[VP Baltar]

Actually, the more I think about it the dumber that sounds [my last paragraph].

VOTE: Gamma

Did you look at the exchange between pooky and Gamma before you made this vote?

[VP Baltar]

How do you know pooky is correct about Gamma if you aren't looking into the argument yourself?

[VP Baltar]

If Pooky’s argument

Key word if.

I changed votes because I realized my reason for voting Dunn is stupid.

Why is it stupid?

Also, when and how will you know IF pooky's points are valid?

[VP Baltar]

Fun and Games vs Gamma didn't change a ton for me. It looks like Fun and Games saying why they suspect Gamma and Gamma getting upset . What does stand out:
-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.
-I wasn't gonna say anything but Bingle already did and scum is never killing Gamma anyway. I also noticed a long time ago Gamma "spewed non PR" . So that's why I've been so willing to compromise on him.

This reads like you're more suspicious of the F&G side of things, but more willing to vote Gamma.

[VP Baltar]

Fun and Games vs Gamma didn't change a ton for me. It looks like Fun and Games saying why they suspect Gamma and Gamma getting upset . What does stand out:
-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.
-I wasn't gonna say anything but Bingle already did and scum is never killing Gamma anyway. I also noticed a long time ago Gamma "spewed non PR" . So that's why I've been so willing to compromise on him.

This reads like you're more suspicious of the F&G side of things, but more willing to vote Gamma.

I don't want to vote either. But Gamma does look better than Pooky in that exchange so it makes sense you'd see it that way. Overall I still think the Fun and Games slot is townier. Consider it more of a "my eyes are open" moment on that slot than a scum read. Gamma I still think is town too just not with a ton of confidence. I think Darby is the only scum who is viable today.

So you are willing to vote there strictly because you think scum won't eliminate Gamma?

[VP Baltar]

Shower thought for the day before I leave for a bit: does it seem odd to anyone else that Gamma has scumread p much everyone pushing her except me?

I had been thinking this for a few days, but kind of ruled it out because Gamma has definitely OMGUSed me before when he was town.

[VP Baltar]

It's hard for me to separate Gamma's personality from his play sometimes, basically.

[VP Baltar]

I know I have to big shoes to fill here but I hope I won't disappoint

Thanks for replacing in, Dwlee!

[VP Baltar]

I know I have to big shoes to fill here but I hope I won't disappoint

Thanks for replacing in, Dwlee!

Yes

Now tell me who is scum or I'll end up aimlessly isoing people

Probably Dunn, maybe Darby and Gamma.

I also think Sleepless, but no one is supporting me there.

Bingle is town. Datisi is probably town.

A flip should give some clarity on the rest.

[VP Baltar]

unless you're about to tell me that you spend a lot of time spectating games you do not participate in, i am highly skeptical of that claim there

You saying cakez hasn't seen you as scum?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

how come this vote switch happens now?

I'm full of whimsy

[VP Baltar]

F&G's interactions with Gamma feel like such bad faith like they are trying so hard to make Gamma look bad

Really? I had the opposite reaction. Like Pooky was definitely being aggressive, but Gamma was pushing pretty poorly formed responses and then doubling down on them when pooky shot them through.

[VP Baltar]

Let's yeet Gamma now so we can keep D1 under 100 pages.

[VP Baltar]

Let's yeet Gamma now so we can keep D1 under 100 pages.

That all you have to say?

Yes. The game needs to move forward, and your flip has enough support/has generated enough conversation to be informative. You seem to want out of the game, so there's little downside here.

[VP Baltar]

Illuminati shit

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: D'Arby

Gamma sounds like he has accepted his fate as today's lim despite the fact we still have time and there is a counterwagon. I am still not fully convinced he is Town, but it could be that D'Arby is also Scum with a stronger role which explains why Gamma prefers his own lim over D'Arby's. Either that or Gamma is Town and believed his "issue" was worth pushing.

Anyway, this makes the wagons even @4 votes each, and I guess this gives us even more info once both slots have flipped.

You all have 48 hours to decide which of the two goes through.

P.S. I may change my mind later, as I believe I need to ISO both Iconeum and D'Arby at this point, but I'm not in the right mindset to concentrate enough at interactions and motivations behind every post, so will do it later today (I hope)

Hate this entire post!

[VP Baltar]

lmao I SR the 3 top wagons, this is funny

You're probably scum based on your own logic! Better check that role PM

[VP Baltar]

I'm 10 pages in. I want to vote skitooky from what I've seen. It's Thanksgiving weekend, I'll probably be fully caught up by the end of it.

Someone tell me bullet points to be mindful of.

I’ll do a thread tl;dr when I’m not mobile, but by far the most important thing is that VP likes IPAs and we need to teach him about beer that doesn’t taste like sweaty socks.

I live in FAHKIN OREGON and this one is lecturing me about beer

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

how come this vote switch happens now?

I'm full of whimsy

this is a very funny response but how am i supposed to copy your reads now

I was sort of wanting to see what people's reactions would be if I changed it up with no explanation. Gamma's giving up/not really giving up makes me feel like it was a good choice.

Bingle is also my strongest townread at this point + we do get probably the most info about player interactions from a Gamma flip. Lots of plusses to just following through with this path at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Fuck, I already submitted a nightkill on you. Outplayed again.

It's OK, I'm vigging you both

[VP Baltar]

I find this last minute move away from Gamma extremely interesting

[VP Baltar]

yeah, n_m is funny sometimes

Fatality

[VP Baltar]

Oop. Well that’s hammer hammer lol.

I just know this is going to be used against me in meta.

This a scum claim?

[VP Baltar]

Scum buddies in the PT telling Darby to shut it hahahha

[VP Baltar]

who is online...

balrar!?

I'm here, but about to go for a run before I eat too much

Pedit - obv my malware is working your brain for secrets currently

[VP Baltar]

lemme know if you find anything interesting there

i will attempt to sleep despite there being a hammer but no goddamn flip

There are literally spider webs in my running shoes lol

[VP Baltar]

If darby flips scum though, that's likely dats confirmtown. If Gamma is scum as well, today was a complete cluster fuck for the red jerseys

[VP Baltar]

Turkeys take time to cook, or something

[VP Baltar]

If darby flips scum though, that's likely dats confirmtown. If Gamma is scum as well, today was a complete cluster fuck for the red jerseys

kinda sounds like baltar scum tsk tsking at his soon to be fallen comrades :3

Lol excuse me?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: gamma

I think dats is a p weird kill ngl, makes me think there's a p deep scum

I also think that dunn/toog is very +town from the slots interactions with ico

I wonder who's scum offwagon as well

~ skitter

I agree with the Dunn/toog read.

VOTE: gamma

The Ico slot and Gamma were barely mentioning each other yesterday until shit got very bad, then Darby and Gamma began forcing interactions with each other.

[VP Baltar]

Folks who replaced in at the end of the day....can we get your general reads now that you've had time to read the full game?

[VP Baltar]

read the full game?

Not happening

Why do you hate me

[VP Baltar]

Folks who replaced in at the end of the day....can we get your general reads now that you've had time to read the full game?

I didn't read anything after hammer. You're still scum, if anything, skimming Gamma's ISO has me believing even more it's you over Toogaloo

Perhaps you should actually read the game then.

Pedit @ dwlee - I'm teasing you

[VP Baltar]

VP is very scummy lol

I think we have already proving you are extremely bad at reading me pooks.

I honestly don't want to get into a big argument with you about it unless Gamma flips town.

[VP Baltar]

I've liked what I've read though

It's a lot of ISO stuff, with how Gamma/Darby/Toog have interacted with VP, also look at the final wagon. VP stayed on Gamma. Gamma will flip red. Gamma was more obvious than Darby, it makes more sense to try and keep the vote with your obvious partner. Idk how you tr VP

So I'm scum because I was trying to flip someone who was red in your eyes, and arguably is more competent than Darby?

That's an insanely insulting read of my scum playing ability.

And what is the interaction with Gamma you're referring to? You mean where he screeched for my head and put a fake ass vote there for 20 pages?

[VP Baltar]

At a time when ico/gamma/dunn (toog) were the main viable options, ico kept trying to push towards dunn and ignored gamma, which i think is +town for toog and damning for gamma

~ skitter

Yes, this exactly

[VP Baltar]

Andante replaced penguin. It makes more sense now.

[VP Baltar]

and VP Baltar said A50 direction changing from Gamma -> Darby was bad

but Gamma doesn't call out VP Baltar

like that's just bad ?

What's my scum motivation in this scenario to try and yeet the more competent scum buddy assuming gamma!scum?

[VP Baltar]

to get towncred duh

Town cred doesn't mean much if you're making your chances of winning smaller.



Other reads: enchant probably IS town if Gamma flips red. Gamma had town binning him from the start of the game with bad reasons reads like pocketing.

[VP Baltar]

Andante is the last scum. Calling it now. No way town they come out this hard cherry picking and spamming stuff on the day Gamma is going down otherwise.

Pooky is just absolutely terrible at reading me and will shit tunnel the rest of the game.

[VP Baltar]

One of reasons why i even hammered is to protect Gamma from wagon, i am not pleased.

You got pocketed. Live and learn.

[VP Baltar]

So much thread spamming

[VP Baltar]

I don't think it is Toog based on the same point skitter made.

There was also some reason in my overnight read (which I can't recall now) that it didn't seen like Sleepless Assassin either. (I'll refresher on this later).

With Bingle town, that leaves Andante and A50. (Cakez shot was actually good tbh). A50 is extremely unlikely, so the penguin may be the problem here. I'll reread PP and Andante today and see how I feel about it.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Gamma

Would be better if i do.

Could have waited for bingle to post.

Also, why is it "better" for you to hammer?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Gamma

Would be better if i do.

Could have waited for bingle to post.

Also, why is it "better" for you to hammer?

It's more dramatic.

More dramatic than who or what?

[VP Baltar]

Datisi in the dead thread screaming about the speed yeet regardless of outcome.

[VP Baltar]

I’m getting the weird feels from this wagon, tbh. I push a solid case on gamma for like two weeks without luck and all of a sudden all of these kids and their meddlesome dog are gunning for the lim. Can I have 24h to process?

He is hammered, so get in here

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee replaced NM right? I guess that's a complete shot in the dark

[VP Baltar]

Okay I have pants glasses and coffee, so tell me the news. I saw Gamma came in and blew the "well that sucks" tell out of the water and was vaguely wondering if SA would push that like he did the other oldschool tell whose name escapes me.

That's what I cleared SA for! He called out the Amished tell on Darby and then Gamma tried to say it was a bullshit tell that's inaccurate.

Yeah, SA is almost certainly town. That's too orchestrated for scum to intentionally do in thread.

[VP Baltar]

I think I've talked myself out of my bad feels irt the wagon.

PoE of Baltar/Dwlee/SA/MaybeEnchant/MaybeToog?

I think I'm pretty happy just townbinning everyone else rn.

If Gamma flips red, Enchant and SA and Toog are certainly town. We can yeet me after if necessary, but Andante should be on your list there if so. Counting on you to not fuck this game up. Pooky absolutely will left to his own devices.

[VP Baltar]

VP being rude to my good friends? I'm auto yeeting VP tomorrow

You're bad at mafia, we get it

[VP Baltar]

If Gamma flips red, Enchant and SA and Toog are certainly town. We can yeet me after if necessary, but Andante should be on your list there if so. Counting on you to not fuck this game up. Pooky absolutely will left to his own devices.

I'm... Not really sure why you're aiming this at me? This just reads as a weird attempt at buddying me when you're in absolutely no danger of being the NK tonight?

Because I'm not going to argue over pooky potentially being pocketed by andante.

It's fair people have suspicions on me, but me trying to argue derpy spamming is bad for the thread. Someone with some sense will need to stop the SA and enchant misyeets being lined up.

[VP Baltar]

If Gamma flips red, Enchant and SA and Toog are certainly town.

Enchant is suspicious regardless of what gamma is. Enchant was all "gamma town" then hammered it... what is the rush to hammer day right now? You only rush if you don't want people to talk

Keep your yeet options open! Enchant is 100% pocketed town and is too bad to know it

[VP Baltar]

I do trust skitter's instincts as well, but me trying to convince half a hydra that the other half is wrong seems less efficient than just talking to my strongest town read.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar what makes you think Andante scum?

PoE and her spamming the thread trying to undermine my credibility from the start of today. Not guaranteed and I still need to reread her and penguin when I have a chance to sit at a computer, but she came out hot today specifically at me even though she said she hadn't really read the game.

It's a smart play as scum getting their asses handed to them: Bus your other buddy for some kind of cred and then throw mud at as many people as possible for the future elims. You can see her all over the place today slinging stuff. Could be poorly done scum hunting, but there isn't very strong logic too it and she is eager to play on pooky's worse instincts.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant with the quickhammer there was super suspicious, enchant literally TRed gamma just before, then like "ok, no longer tr. vote"

I will tell you secret.

I hammered still believing it will likely flip town. Well i doubted that for a second which cost us pretty.
I can't really explain my momental grudge, but Gamma selfvoting yet *again* pissed me off (I can't really explain of OGI). Consider this policy elim.

Can't tell if this is a too scummy to be scum ploy or not.

I pulled some vote count stuff over night that is worth talking about, but I am at work and won't be able to post that until a little later.

The A50 kill is interesting in the sense that he didn't seem like much of a threat this game. Bingle, what's your thought on that?

[VP Baltar]

Who is scum F&G?

[VP Baltar]

Who is scum F&G?

skitter is going to do this part

Why?

[VP Baltar]

cuz we're 1 day from mylo and she's better than me at it

I'd like to hear your thoughts. You were a primary pusher on Gamma from D1. I want to know what the reevaluation is.

[VP Baltar]

Also vp what are ur thoughts on sa presently?

~ skitter

Probably still town, but I haven't re-ISOed him since D1

When did you and pooky come to an agreement that you would deliver the updated reads?

[VP Baltar]

He was a significant sr of you day1, what changed?

And uh we didnt, i logged on and saw that so just shared them. Why are you asking this?

~ skitter

I'm asking because pooky stated it. Seems a very fair question to ask why a hydra that was wildly spam posting yesterday suddenly has coordinated messaging.

Re: SA - I did a lot of rereading of him over night on N1 and found him very townie looking in a universe with a Gamma-Ico team. That obviously proved to be a bad assumption, so I need to reread. That said, when I pulled some vote counts over night, he still didn't stick out to me as super scummy at first glance.

[VP Baltar]

Gamma flip kinda ruined my mental map of the game sooo gonna need to revibe check the thread

I don't think we got your first vibe of the game did we?

[VP Baltar]

R.e. sa i would like to hear more abt what you saw n1 when you have a chance pleasw?

Will do. I'm at work at the moment, but I'll have some meaty posts tonight or tomorrow

[VP Baltar]

So either the team is SA/Bingle or I'm very very wrong here.

Which do you think is more likely?

[VP Baltar]

The other thing from end of Day 1, skitter almost seemed to know Darby was flipping scum.

Can you expand on this. What are you seeing that's making you feel this way?

[VP Baltar]

who the heck is the last one. cause I just read an icon/dunn thing that has me thinking it can't be dunn, I'm thinking it's not VP

Gamma Emerald - Flipping red

VP Baltar - might be town
Toogeloo Dunnstral - honestly might be town
Bingle - I like 503, skimming this ISO, Bingle doesn't look bad to me, might be town
Enchant - starts off suggesting what roles town has, I see town do this a lot more than scum, with guessing about the setup, 1500- Sleepless feels like scum in that exchange. overall I think Enchant is town, my least confident townlean, but I'm ok looking elsewhere for now.


Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear) - Town
Almost50 - I'm told A50 was the person who shifted momentum to darby, that makes A50 town




So now we're left with 2:

Dwlee99 Not_Mafia - Read is based on Dw: Honestly, "reads" felt fake, and said a lot of "happy to be here!!!" "excited to play!!!" "no time for reads" I could see this being the reaction of someone replacing into scum, I haven't read N_M, but NM is never an easy read for me

Sleepless Assassin - uhhh idk who this is tbh, I haven't read anything from them, they must be coasting, jk pulled up the ISO, 1846 feels like TMI knowing Toog town, 1956 tries to throw shade on me, like, so what I didn't have perfect reads upon replace in?



No one is suspicious of Sleepless?

Can you please explain to me why you called me maybe town in this post? You had been absolutely hounding me and calling me scum right up until this moment, and I don't understand why you shifted your perspective there.

[VP Baltar]

On vote counts, I pulled several that seemed relevant for an analysis:

VC 1.4
Dunnstral (5)- Fun and Games, VP Baltar,

Iconeum

, PenguinPower,

Datisi

Gamma Emerald

(2)-

Almost50

, Bingle
VP Baltar (1)-

Gamma Emerald

Fun and Games (1)- Dunnstral

Datisi

(1)-

SirCakez

Iconeum

(1)- Sleepless Assassin
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant

Not voting (0)- Nobody

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)



VC 1.5

Gamma Emerald

(4)-

Almost50

, Bingle, PenguinPower, Sleepless Assassin
Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar,

Iconeum

,

Datisi

VP Baltar (1)-

Gamma Emerald

Datisi

(1)-

SirCakez

Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant

Not voting (2)- Fun and Games, Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)


VC 1.7

Iconeum

(3)- Sleepless Assassin, PenguinPower,

Gamma Emerald

Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar,

Iconeum

,

Datisi

Gamma Emerald

(2)-

Almost50

, Bingle

Datisi

(1)-

SirCakez

Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant
PenguinPower (1)- Fun and Games

Not voting (1)- Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)

VC 1.8

Iconeum

(5)- Sleepless Assassin, PenguinPower,

Gamma Emerald, Datisi

, Fun and Games
Dunnstral (2)- VP Baltar,

Iconeum

Gamma Emerald

(2)-

Almost50

, Bingle
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant
Fun and Games (1)-

SirCakez

Not voting (1)- Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)


VC 1.10
Dunnstral (4)-

DArby

,

Gamma Emerald, Datisi,

VP Baltar

DArby

(3)- Sleepless Assassin, PenguinPower, Fun and Games

Gamma Emerald

(2)-

Almost50

, Bingle
Fun and Games (2)-

SirCakez

, Enchant
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia

Not voting (1)- Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)


VC 1.FINAL

DArby

(7)- Sleepless Assassin, PenguinPower, Fun and Games,

Almost50, Datisi, Gamma Emerald

, Enchant (HAMMER)

Gamma Emerald

(4)- Bingle,

DArby,

VP Baltar, Dwlee99
Toogeloo (1)-

SirCakez

Not voting (1)- Toogeloo

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-26 13:00:00)

------------------------

Gamma Emerald

(6)- Fun and Games, VP Baltar, Andante, Dwlee99,

Gamma Emerald

, Enchant (HAMMER)

Not voting (4)-

Almost50

, Toogeloo, Sleepless Assassin, Bingle

With 10 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in 12 days, 14 hours, 25 minutes

I'm not pulling a huge amount from these vote counts, but a few things that stand out to me is Enchant's hammers look scummy in a vacuum. Enchant, do you often try to hammer in games?

The way Penguin camps on Ico/DArby also seems worth reviewing. I want to go back and review why he followed Sleepless onto that wagon. He of course kind of ghosted the game, but it did stick out to me.

The other notable item I see is that Fun and Games looks the most likely to be in a bus slot on DArby if it's not Enchant or Penguin. Again, I need to spend some time reading ISOs to feel out their reasoning for the Ico/DArby read and vote.

My instincts here say scum was more likely than not to try bussing D1 given that at least Ico replaced out from that team. I, of course, also have the benefit of knowing my alignment on these vote counts as well.

F&G -- what do you see in those vote counts?

[VP Baltar]

VP wrote:
Can you please explain to me why you called me maybe town in this post? You had been absolutely hounding me and calling me scum right up until this moment, and I don't understand why you shifted your perspective there.

When Bingle posted and I thought it was you and I called out all these motives in that post, I realized my frustration with you made me see things that maybe weren't there.

This was directed at Andante ...?

[VP Baltar]

like i said we were p confident that he was flipping scum

After the hammer, what made you confident he was flipping red though?

[VP Baltar]

Preview edit: No, VP, that was my reply to you

haha, I'm saying my question was to Andante...that's who I was quoting, not you.

But thank you for answering!

[VP Baltar]

i also somewhat object to the notion that our vote on ico looks like a bus :shrug:

do you think scum bus in that situation with Darby?

Also noticed you didn't say anything about Enchant there.

[VP Baltar]

i also don't think ico camps on a buddy, so i think that's +town for toog

why not camp on a buddy with a wagon that's not really going anywhere despite my best efforts?

[VP Baltar]

why were u confident he was flipping scum in post 1996

Because I didn't see any reason as town someone would think their D1 elimination would count against their meta. Datisi caught it too obviously when he backed me up in that next post.

sounds like it

s_s please do the thing i am tired but i won't be able to sleep now

[VP Baltar]

i also don't think ico camps on a buddy, so i think that's +town for toog

why not camp on a buddy with a wagon that's not really going anywhere despite my best efforts?

uh i recall more of your efforts day1 being on SA?

and that was ico's one and only push basically, you're trying to tell me taht his only push of the game was on a buddy?

~ skitter

I pushed Dunn very hard for a good chunk of the day, but people wouldn't listen to me on a semi-meta based argument.

As far as Ico, I can't speak to what he would do, but it's also not like he found his footing this game. I don't think it's that crazy of a possibility. It's all speculation either way you look at it unfortunately.

[VP Baltar]

what's the point of asking me about having basically the same reaction to the same post that you did

you're basically criticizing my 2007 when your 1996 has the exact same sentiment for the same reasons based on the same post ...

~ skitter

I'm criticizing you?

[VP Baltar]

maybe criticize is the wrong word but you're adding some oomph to SA's assertion that we were overconfident r.e. ico's flip with this and i'm pointing out that you had literally the same reaction we did so not sure why you're asking this

I'm asking so I can understand your thought process, as it's not clear in 2007 why you stated optimism about the flip. So you're saying you saw the post I commented on as a possible scum slip and that's what gave you the confidence?

[VP Baltar]

Hella quiet on opinions from people who are not me and F&G

[VP Baltar]

Based on the combined associatives from both slots

Got some examples you can point to?

[VP Baltar]

Based on the combined associatives from both slots

Got some examples you can point to?

I hated it in school when teachers told me to show my work too, lol. I'm not going to effort that much, but I pointed you in the direction. You can either trust me or go look for yourself.

You can just tell me. That's pretty low effort, right? No quoting required.

[VP Baltar]

Btw game ended and i can say, Gamma selfvoted (you all stupid included) as scum in game not so ago, so it was really throwed me off, because i did townread this before flip.
And then i died. Yeah...

Seems like it's simple Gamma thing, but it's late to regrets.

Link?

[VP Baltar]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88151

Ok, just for reference, that's not really the same thing. Gamma self hammers as scum in that game...which is a valid play to shut down discussion if you think you're absolutely going to be yeeted that day. That's different than self voting as town out of frustration, as happened this game.

And that game does show town-Enchant hammering. Need to read the context and see how comparable that is to this game.

[VP Baltar]

I was townreaded because it was popular.

THAT'S HOW TOWN WORKS.

Who do you think is scum today?

[VP Baltar]

I think it’s weird VP is asking about why I called them town yesterday, like VP was THERE, didn’t think to ask then?? now it’s like, are you trying to set something up to push me?

It did occur to me, i just didnt get to it before the day ended.

Answer the question.

[VP Baltar]

ok so I’m mobile, can talk more later, basically I didn’t expect gamma to flip green at all, I SRed Darby for the Gamma read, so I guess I just got lucky there, as soon as I saw the green flip I was like, “nahhh this is a joke. has to be” checked back later, it wasn’t a joke. and have instantly gotten super nervous about my strong TR with skitter and pooky... won’t vote them out today, just nervous.

I think it’s weird VP is asking about why I called them town yesterday, like VP was THERE, didn’t think to ask then?? now it’s like, are you trying to set something up to push me?

It's later now. Have thoughts on the game?

Also, still waiting for an answer to your rapidly shifting views on me.

[VP Baltar]

I kind of like SA's point about Penguin not being on Darby's reads list seeming town indicative.

Bingle - what's up buddy? You are very quiet for someone who felt rushed yesterday and unable to get your thoughts out.

[VP Baltar]

Bingle - they both had Bingle in the town pile without doing a good job of explaining why. Darby even bumped Bingle up from a weird inclusion in a null list to town and didn't say why.

This is probably your spiciest read, so I'm interested. Bingle was being pretty universally town read at that point. Wouldn't scum also come up with weak reasons for a town read so as to not go too much against the popular opinion? Especially an inexperienced scum player?

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee, do you tend to be a low content player?

[VP Baltar]

If Bingle was scum, Bingle had no incentive to even talk D2

Bingle didn't pop in until after the hammer. Not sure that really says anything about alignment.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: VP Baltar

I'll probably end here anyways eod

Neat. You going to answer why you scum--->town read me D1?

[VP Baltar]

Or do you simply not have an answer?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Fun and Games

also a self-note to me to pick up reading from the point in D1 where FG says they're considering voting Ico but want to see a vote count first.

[VP Baltar]

shocking

So pooky has been here the whole time, just not posting.

[VP Baltar]

That my friends is called a bear trap.

[VP Baltar]

@vp why is that scum indicative

Why are you two being so guarded with your posting? Only scum care about presenting themselves carefully.

Your playstyle today has shifted notably following the speed-yeet of Gamma, who suspected you. Y'all had been playing pretty loose in the thread until today. I don't see why you'd shift like that as town. But if there is a reason, I'm listening.


Secondly, I actually was reading your ISO to see how your Ico read developed, and I have to say it was a suspiciously accurate gut read based on practically nothing, then you were focused on other people primarily. You were asking Datisi a lot of questions about his read on Ico, seeming to try and gauge off him how seriously you should be pushing Ico. You then returned to voting Ico when the wagon was more viable. I do want to read in context your change in position in relation to other people around the time you voted Ico.

But for now, Gamma was suspicious of you, Cakez was suspicious of you, and I don't care for your careful posting today. Very comfortable with my vote.

[VP Baltar]

There aren't many other players in the game who were likely better.

I would agree with this except for Bingle, which frankly is creeping me out slightly. Why do you think A50 over a Bingle kill?

[VP Baltar]

He also suspected you

gamma did not suspect me past our spat on D1. He was calling me town.

[VP Baltar]

Where exactly do you see this happening? And how are we at once being guarded and loose ...?

I see it happening in Pooky straight not posting. I asked for his scum reads, he said "skitter will handle that". Huh interesting. That wasn't an issue before.

I'm not saying you're being both guarded and loose. I'm saying you were being much more loose until the Gamma lim, now you're being guarded.

[VP Baltar]

He also suspected you

gamma did not suspect me past our spat on D1. He was calling me town.

I dont remember exactly when he switched, but again, why is this relevant

~ skitter

They are town. They had suspicions. Are you saying suspicions from confirmed town players are not worth anything?

[VP Baltar]

Are you basically positing that we're scum with ico, pushed him since like p2, but badgered dats to gauge how viable a wagon was while pushing our partner the whole time? That doesnt even make sense ...

Looking at your iso, it was not really pushing until the wagon was viable. So yes, it makes very good sense if you were buddies building a bussing case, but keeping your options open if town happened to want to lim someone else D1.

[VP Baltar]

That's a strawman, and the fact rhat he's confirmed town doesnt mean his reads are right, as evidenced by the fact that he spent half of day1 pushing you from your pov, and you're being selective in looking at gamma and cakez, and not dats or a50

~ skitter

A50 was barely playing the game to the point he died. But let's be generous and say the dead town were 50/50 on you. Guess I'm making a gut call to break the tie.

[VP Baltar]

Him not posting != 'guarded'
It means he's bored, and that's not scum indicative

~ skitter

I don't believe Pooky is bored really. He likes to play the game. Look at him going buck wild yesterday with Andante trying to spam me into the dirt. He was having fun.

Pooky is a bombastic player who is smart enough to know that following a miselim you had a hand in, that type of play isn't likely to go over well. So skitter will handle it raises my hackles.

Also, pooky is bored, but ready to drop a response the moment I vote you? okee dokee.

[VP Baltar]

Him not posting != 'guarded'
It means he's bored, and that's not scum indicative

~ skitter

I don't believe Pooky is bored really. He likes to play the game. Look at him going buck wild yesterday with Andante trying to spam me into the dirt. He was having fun.

Pooky is a bombastic player who is smart enough to know that following a miselim you had a hand in, that type of play isn't likely to go over well. So skitter will handle it raises my hackles.

Also, pooky is bored, but ready to drop a response the moment I vote you? okee dokee.

[VP Baltar]

You're ignoring the firsf half of that post, just pointing that out

~ skitter

No it doesn't mean his reads are right, but I've never played with you skitter. Two players who have and who I know are town said your posting style felt off to them very early on. Why should I not consider that?

That's the same reason you "pushed" Ico from very early on. Seems a valid concern doesn't it?

[VP Baltar]

And if he was having fun as scum with andante yesterday, why does he suddenly choose to become guarded, this isnt even internally consistant .

Because gamma flipped green. You need to be sufficiently contrite.

Acting erratically is more likely to draw attention after a miselim. And you post much more rationally and calmly skitter.

[VP Baltar]

Ironically enuf i would give more weight to a50's read

and why's that?

[VP Baltar]

why did pooky suddenly get bored with the game after the gamma flip?

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: vpbaltar

This is nonsense and seems like you're trying to construct a narrative

Pedit ya i agree

~ skitter

I am indeed trying to figure out the motivations of people, and that involves me trying to understand why people in the game are acting they way they are and pushing the people they're pushing.

Prior to voting me, you were voting Dwlee....which felt very limp and lhf.

My theory of the game after N1 definitely involved Gamma. It made a lot of sense in terms of associatives to yeet him. When he flipped green, it pretty much blew up my worldview of the game. I needed to reconsider my own assumptions, obviously.

That leaves two possible scenarios. Either it's something really simple like Enchant+Toog (which doesn't quite feel like it fits with the A50 NK), or we have at least 1 deep wolf in the game. Of you and Bingle, I think you're the most likely candidate there.

[VP Baltar]

He knows how to read me, and has demonstrated it by reading me properly numerous times

I will read A50's ISO and see what he says about you. Dats as well.

The reason I brought up Gamma and Cakez is because as I was rereading your ISO, it was obvious they were going after you a bit. So, in your defense, you are much less likely to be responding to positive comments about you.

[VP Baltar]

If I'm a cop, I have an innocent on Dwlee.

[VP Baltar]

Skitter's posting feels tonally off. Not like her usual self. Kinda awkward.

[VP Baltar]

No it doesn't mean his reads are right, but I've never played with you skitter. Two players who have and who I know are town said your posting style felt off to them very early on. Why should I not consider that?

Yeah, okay, that's the relevant one.

Show me where and who said this, cause iirc I'm the one who thought skitter was off D1, and I don't see how you could possibly know I'm town without having copped me.

oh, i see the confusion. I was referring to Gamma and Cakez because they are flipped and we know their alignment. I don't know your alignment and wasn't talking about you.

Though in going back again to find the quote, it may have only been Cakez who said it early on. Gamma's scum accusations against F&G came later in the day.

[VP Baltar]

And also were quite clearly rageOMGUS

How am I OMGUSing when they weren't voting me?

[VP Baltar]

And also were quite clearly rageOMGUS

How am I OMGUSing when they weren't voting me?

oh you're saying Gamma was. My bad.

Sure, Gamma gets emotional. But doesn't mean he's entirely wrong. Particularly since this was taking place pre-Darby flip.

[VP Baltar]

what does he hate about this post from A50?

I hated it because A50 was pushing the Gamma wagon all day and then bailed when it was a viable option. That type of move always raises questions for me, especially in a D1 scenario where only scum know the outcome of the wagon for sure.

Clearly I was incorrect though, so shrug.

[VP Baltar]

So Pooky, if I'm understanding correctly, you came into today wanting to go both barrels on me, but skitter wasn't sure, and so you agreed to not post as much then because your reads were out of alignment?

Is that what happened?

[VP Baltar]

One viable wagon to another viable wagon.

That shouldn't raise a question for you unless you heavily prefer eliminating Gamma over eliminating Darby on D1 and if you actually do have such a preference you should be stating clearly WHY you want to flip Gamma over Darby.

You're missing the point of what I'm saying. It's not that Darby wasn't viable. It's that A50 had really ONLY wanted Gamma up to that point, and then when it looked like he could get it, he bailed.

It made me suspicious of a possible A50-Gamma team.

[VP Baltar]

So Pooky, if I'm understanding correctly, you came into today wanting to go both barrels on me, but skitter wasn't sure, and so you agreed to not post as much then because your reads were out of alignment?

Is that what happened?

I tend to be more tunnelly and rarely change my mind unless something dramatic happens that resets my world view.

She has a more holistic approach where she likes to poke and things and figure things out.

I'm not going to shout over her because she's better at catching scum than I am and she's very nice.

Sure, I can see the differences in your playstyles.

I'm really only trying to understand when and why the decision was made to defer to skitter for today when you had been posting earlier in the game no problem. Skitter says you're bored, which I'm not sure if that's actually it.

If it's that you thought you'd tunnel me and maybe that's not the best approach...I actually understand that reasoning possibly coming from town. I am just having a hard time getting a straight answer here and that makes me suspicious.


p.edit -- Sure, but Gamma wasn't guaranteed to go down there. Not bussing D1 if you don't have to is still the optimal play, right?

[VP Baltar]

How am I OMGUSing when they weren't voting me?

? Gamma was OMGUS'ing skitter. I'm saying that what you described (thinking skitter was off based on tone) was specific to two players and neither is GE. One flipped town. One is me.

Yes, and I stated I misspoke. It was very clear from the context of the conversation I was talking about GE and Cakez. Your name was never even brought up.

[VP Baltar]

It feels like you don't really have much to attack me with so you're reaching for some nonsense about me not posting being scum!indicative

which is kind of hilarious because I'm probably one of the more flamboyant scum players on the site and I like posting as scum :3

tbf, I've been trying to get an answer about the posting change before I voted you.

But skitter being reasonable and offering a defense to Bingle also makes zero sense as scum just now.

I HATE THIS GAME

[VP Baltar]

Bingle, what's your thought on that?

I can see a few explanations:

There's scum in the town leaders.
Scum wants us to think there's scum in the town leaders.
Scum thought A50 lurking was a PR tell.
Scum thought that A50 was impossible to eliminate based on my read.
A50 dropped a PR tell I didn't notice and scum did.
Scum thinks they're fucked and was trying to shake up the game with an off the wall kill.

Those are roughly in order of how likely I think they are.

It's why I'm interested in Andante's push on hockey, actually.

Coming back to this post. You don't think scum saw A50 as a direct threat is a viable option?

Also, when you're saying A50 was impossible to elim off your read, you're talking about the townslip thing?

[VP Baltar]

Skitter does something townie, and then pooky acts scummy by spam posting after I call him out for hiding.

I reiterate, I HATE THIS GAME.

[VP Baltar]

I like how you can't address the substance of what I'm posting and can only hand-wave it as "spamming"

you're just posting random stuff from D1 because I wasn't on the Ico wagon. What would you like me to say? bzzzz isn't something I can respond to. I'm happy to answer actual questions.

[VP Baltar]

Who is scum F&G?

skitter is going to do this part

Why?

@skitter - Pooky has been ignoring me up until this point, so...

I had been asking since early in the day why he said this and until I voted, he was clearly not posting in the thread. Doesn't necessarily have to be scummy, but I don't think I was being unreasonable asking for an explanation. Now Pooky is back in the thread full bore when I got a little more aggressive about it. I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill here though either. I'm really just trying to get some transparency about thought process.

[VP Baltar]

I already gave you a chance to address why you pushed back on A50 vote flipping from Gamma -> Ico at EOD

Your explanation was pretty awful.

ok. I mean, Datisi had similar feelings at the time right after me. I could only operate on what I saw in the thread.

[VP Baltar]

cuz we're 1 day from mylo and she's better than me at it

I'd like to hear your thoughts. You were a primary pusher on Gamma from D1. I want to know what the reevaluation is.

Pooky never answers this. He just dips from the thread entirely and skitter takes over.

Again, not necessarily scummy, but I'm also not being unreasonable trying to understand where Pooky's head is at, especially when they're saying they each have their own reads.

[VP Baltar]

I dont have anything to add r.e. any thought process, we didnt discuss it and it wasnt a conscious decision on my part

He said that, i started posting shortly thereafter, and he didnt post again until now. If u want more of an explanation itll have to come from him, i dont have one

~ skitter

right, this is what's frustrating. I just wanted an answer to a pretty simple question and now I'm over here possibly overthinking something that should have been quite simple.

[VP Baltar]

bingle is town

therefore a50 is also town

fuck i'm good at this game

this is the last thing datisi says about a50 in his iso

where do you get the similar feelings thing?

also that's not even an excuse

Literally the next post from Datisi after the post of mine you're questioning is him saying he's unsure about A50.

Okay, yeah A50 is lock town.

please say sike

[VP Baltar]

cuz we're 1 day from mylo and she's better than me at it

I'd like to hear your thoughts. You were a primary pusher on Gamma from D1. I want to know what the reevaluation is.

Pooky never answers this. He just dips from the thread entirely and skitter takes over.

Again, not necessarily scummy, but I'm also not being unreasonable trying to understand where Pooky's head is at, especially when they're saying they each have their own reads.

I already answered this.

I wanted to kill you, she didn't feel the same way, so I decided to let her do her thing while I mostly read along and twiddled my thumbs.

Where did your reads stand pre-Gamma flip and post-Gamma flip? How did you re-evaluate based upon that information.

[VP Baltar]

bingle is town

therefore a50 is also town

fuck i'm good at this game

this is the last thing datisi says about a50 in his iso

where do you get the similar feelings thing?

also that's not even an excuse

Literally the next post from Datisi after the post of mine you're questioning is him saying he's unsure about A50.

Okay, yeah A50 is lock town.

please say sike

that's not datisi expressing suspicion of a50

thats datisi laughing at bingle townreading a50 for dumbtelling

I read that post as datisi saying he didn't think A50 was locktown at that moment.

[VP Baltar]

Gamma flipping town meant that EOD1 wagons were T/S and not S/S - I remembered Gamma was very close to dying near end of D1 so I'm looking for who was trying to kill him then to save Darby.


this is the penultimate VC:



Dwlee votes Gamma ~25 minutes later making it 6-3.

A50 is the one who changes momentum by flipping his vote from Gamma -> Darby making it 5-4. 1861

This is probably the single most important part of D1.

You push back on A50 with 1867 berating him for vote-flipping but not providing any reasons.

Reading all the posts in the pages since A50's vote-flip, your post is the only pushback he gets for vote flipping.

Which makes sense in the context of scum!you seeing your mis-elim starting to walk out the door.

If you're town, that seems like an understandable analysis. I know it's incorrect, but I guess I can see where you'd be suspicious. Still think you could have answered my question at the start of the day instead of ghosting me or being obtuse about it.

In response to the point you're making, I don't think it'd be a wise play for me as scum there to make a stink about A50 ditching, especially since he is semi-erratic as a player. Seems like a play that is unlikely to get him to flip back to Gamma and the safer play would have been to just shut up or join the flop to a bus in a VP!scum world.

[VP Baltar]

given how much you defended Ico/Darby throughout Day 1, I really doubt a voteflip to bussing Ico/Darby would work out for you at the eleventh hour

I defended Darby? I don't remember that.

I also wouldn't call it a defense or town read of ico so much as not really getting the case being made because most of it was vibe and meta based. At least that's how it was coming across to me

[VP Baltar]

Mostly think it can't be all the scum because I'm not that good.

fair enough

what makes you put iconeum in there?

Same reason for all of them. Lack of free flowing response to the game. More reactionary than active engagement. Ico is a tougher case because he has been busy and gone it seems

making excuses for Ico despite having him inside POE.

This is some serious bad faith.

Someone said ICO was busy with real life. Why would I not take that into account when what was pinging for me was lack of engagement?

[VP Baltar]

Dats -- you still want to lim the Ico slot now that it's being replaced?

tries to use replacement as if it somehow washes away the sin

Also extremely bad faith interpretation when the actual point of my question was to gauge Datisi's feelings on Darby. In a town!Datisi world, I trust his reads.

[VP Baltar]

As far as this chainsaw stuff, you're just posting things you already said and acting like you're making new points. I found SA scummy, we tussled and I ended up townreading him out of it. So complete bullshit to call it chainsawing for Ico. His camped vote for 50 pages looked sketchy.

[VP Baltar]

sure you can make the excuse ico is busy irl but that's not a reason to townread him.

Show me the post where I used the words Ico is town.

[VP Baltar]

You literally don't present any reasons to townread Ico but you are very invested in making Datisi re-evaluate on the slot and you are very invested in pushing people who are not Ico.

That's not me being bad faith that's literally what you did.

I never said Ico was town! I said I thought the wagon was not well explained. Those are not the same thing. Ico was very null for me

[VP Baltar]

How do you believe Ico!scum is being pushed by SA!scum but you are happy to vote for Dunnstral or Gamma?

Because after SA and I fought, I felt I was wrong about him. Like, that is VERY clear in context D1. You're cherry picking a midday fight and acting like that was how I still felt at the end of the day. It's simply not true.

[VP Baltar]

sure you can make the excuse ico is busy irl but that's not a reason to townread him.

Show me the post where I used the words Ico is town.

you are very careful not to do this

you just conveniently make the cleverest excuses to push for people to die that would allow him to live!

I'll be honest I wouldn't suspect you as much if you actually townread Ico rather than trying to sneakily get him to live by murdering people that are not him!

You literally just said twice I was townreading Ico. Nice backpedal

[VP Baltar]

sure you can make the excuse ico is busy irl but that's not a reason to townread him.

[VP Baltar]

You literally don't present any reasons to townread Ico

[VP Baltar]

The question is if you're scum or just being tunnel pooky with this level of intellectual dishonesty.

[VP Baltar]

You literally don't present any reasons to townread Ico

this literally says you don't present any reasons to townread him...

so it makes no sense for you to avoid voting him and pushing for people who are not him to die....

that's not saying you townread him

Yep keep playing semantics.

As I stated earlier, I had ico null and didn't find the "vibe" case compelling.

I also was uncertain about Gamma D1, but I did feel that was going to provide more D2 information when I placed my vote since Darby was posting like a noob. This is all in my iso and easy to find. You're just not looking for context in the slightest.

You can attack me all day for being wrong for not joining the Ico wagon. Fair play. My vote was in the wrong spot when the bell rang. But you're being full of shit and backpedaling when I caught you overstepping in your accusation.

[VP Baltar]

Quoting the same post and acting like you're saying something new, so townie

[VP Baltar]

But yeah, keep quoting a post from page 20 and acting like I felt exactly the same on page 83 after Ico had replaced out. Totally a good faith point.

[VP Baltar]

But let's remember pooky was lurking until I voted him. Now suddenly he can't stop talking LOL

[VP Baltar]

For four hours. Glad you're not bored suddenly

[VP Baltar]

Remember when you said I defended darby

[VP Baltar]

I guess if my vote is needed on the Ico wagon to finish it, I'm not opposed, but it feels slightly too popular for ambiguous reasons to me.

Textbook soft-defense of Ico by shading his wagon as "too popular" rofl

Yeah, crazy I said that and stand by it as my feeling at the time on that wagon.

Rofl!

[VP Baltar]

But yeah, keep quoting a post from page 20 and acting like I felt exactly the same on page 83 after Ico had replaced out. Totally a good faith point.

How does him replacing out make him go from suspicious to null?

More intellectual dishonesty! I didn't say the replacement changed my read. I said 63 pages later and a completely different player in the slot and you're stating I couldn't possibly go from twinge of scumminess to a null read.

More top shelf intellectual honesty!

[VP Baltar]

Lol I should stop drinking. My zingers are coming in doubles now

[VP Baltar]

that shit would drive a man to drinking lol

You drove me here with your spamming!

[VP Baltar]

As far as this chainsaw stuff, you're just posting things you already said and acting like you're making new points. I found SA scummy, we tussled and I ended up townreading him out of it. So complete bullshit to call it chainsawing for Ico. His camped vote for 50 pages looked sketchy.

wait a second when did you flip to a townread on SA

i'm not seeing it in your iso

Idk, I'm on my phone and trying to make dinner, I'm not going to look for posts right now. I very clearly went at it with SA and didn't find him scummy after some time had passed and I reflected on his play post that point.

[VP Baltar]

it's ok next time we fight I hope you have better teammates buddy

love you long time

If we are both town here, I'm going to be annoyed because this was how you tunneled me wrong in Hidden Temple.

[VP Baltar]

And on that note, I do need to cook here. See you all tomorrow and sorry for my part in adding like 10 pages!

[VP Baltar]

We are probably like the same person in RL pooky lol

[VP Baltar]

Go hard in the paint, never say die

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:

BTW. I'm totally unsure now if you're being you or scum. So well played if the latter.

[VP Baltar]

Lates

[VP Baltar]

they’re not misrepping what you said, saying very clear reasons you’re scum and you don’t have good answers

There were several misreps in that mix, which I clearly pointed out.

The one valid suspicion I would have if I was him would be asking questions about my question to A50, which I explained from my perspective. Pooky can take or leave whether he believes that. The chainsaw argument is a serious reach if you look at the context of the discussion I had with SA, especially since I was questioning myself from the start and asking people if I was having tunnelvision on him. You don't undermine your own read confidence if you're truly chainsawing. That's like tying your hands behind your back.

You however have done nothing this game and still can't answer your thought process on flip flopping reads on me on short notice.

[VP Baltar]

Toog is likely partner, I agree there,

Who said toog is a VP!scum partner?

[VP Baltar]

I will talk to anyone except VP here, and answer questions from anyone except VP, normally I interact with my sr to see if I'm sure, but this guy is genuinely frustrating me, I was getting frustrated reading his stuff with others, and here, the stuff he's saying, genuinely trying to anger me, so nah not doing this. if anyone needs me, I'm here just @ me, otherwise, I'm just not talking to VP, putting this bias aside, I do think he flips scum, so yeah.

^if we flip me today, check this post for future review.

Giant AtE as an excuse to not answer questions that potentially reveal Andante's scum motivation.

[VP Baltar]

Toog is likely partner, I agree there,

Who said toog is a VP!scum partner?

I'll go ahead and answer this for Andante so she doesn't get frustrated.

No one said this. It also makes absolutely no sense. I spent much of D1 trying to get a Dunn yeet....which is now the Toog slot.

Andante is trying to chain misyeets, but fucked up and thought someone else had mentioned Toog in relation to me.

It's possible Andante just confused dwlee and Toog since they are both low content slots, but the instant defensiveness and poor me act to being asked a simple question is a red flag.

[VP Baltar]

It do be looking like VP can’t argue against the core issue (bad associative with ico)

Which aspects would you like me to address? Don't feel like I was asked all that many questions or specifics, just got in a spam fight with pooky (which he had the advantage of being on a computer with my iso open, and I was operating from old man memory and a phone) - but I can go back and explain specific contexts with quotes and shit if there are specifics you want to hear.

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee, what do you think of andante's AtE above?

[VP Baltar]

I think F&G's push looks like how I bus so?

Does this mean you plan to vote me? I would like to know if I need to spend today putting a final thoughts post together

[VP Baltar]

Maybe

Depends on how Pooky twists my arm

Why would that be a factor if you think F&G is bussing me?

[VP Baltar]

Maybe

Depends on how Pooky twists my arm

Why would that be a factor if you think F&G is bussing me?

If Dwlee was convinced F&G was 100% convinced it was a bus, they'd be voting you right now

Thought you weren't talking to me?

[VP Baltar]

I'm making a point that you can take pot shots at me apparently, but not respond to legitimate questions. I'm not the one acting in bad faith here.

[VP Baltar]

I'll respond to legitimate stuff, you asked me like 2-3 times why I TRed you day 1, and if I TRed you d1, I said why at the time, and your recent play doesn't even want to make me reconsider my read on you. yeah I know I TRed you at a point, haven't looked back for why. you didn't wanna question skitter/pooky? when 1 TRed you?

No, I asked you to explain how you went from scum reading to town reading me at that point in the game. It was unexplained and seemed opportunistic to me, so I wanted you to explain your thought process. You've been dodging me since, seemingly on purpose.

As far as your last two questions there, I'm not following what you're asking me. Can you explain what you're asking me so I can answer? Are you asking me why I didn't questions F&G when they had split reads on me? I did. I expressed frustration at that very point.

[VP Baltar]

Like, I come into today like "F&G is probably scum" and it just so happens that after I say that you start pushing them, vote them? like it was half me being nervous my tr was so strong on them, and half "lets see who jumps on this" but I didn't really get the chance to follow up reactions on that

Wait, are you suggesting I went after F&g because of an offhand remark you made?

[VP Baltar]

seemed opportunistic to me

how the heck is me going "vp might be town" opportunistic? you weren't even a consideration for the wagon yesterday. Gamma was getting yeeted regardless of what you did

Opportunistic in the sense of trying to sway me to your side at that point with a town read.

Can you, pretty please I'm genuinely asking here, explain what I did or said at that time that made you flip your read on me?

[VP Baltar]

yes. yes I am

I think you are vastly overstating your relevance so far in this game.

The Gamma flip made me want to question NY own view on the game because he did make a lot of sense as a Darby partner, I agree. In my experience, the best approach when you have bad reads in the game is to scrap it all and start reconsidering everyone independently. You can see from the very start of the day today, I am asking questions to both FG and Bingle. In my head at that point, I'm worried about deep wolves and focusing my energy on stress testing those reads.

I'm actually quite glad pooky and I went at it because it gave me a better feeling about him in some respects. At least there is something I can work with there to make an evaluation. On the whole, he probably made me slightly less suspicious because I can see the thinking around the A50 thing, even if I disagree with it.

I assure you, your comment did not even land on my radar

[VP Baltar]

I think you are vastly overstating your relevance so far in this game.

ouch. my ego is sad

We all do it, don't worry. I'm guilty too.

[VP Baltar]

one of the larger reasons being, I tend to clash with town more than scum, like when I was calling VP scum a few pages back, and tunneling for about 0 reason, kinda felt like a towny response to me, idk, again I haven't read much of anything from VP, but the clash kinda had me thinking, I end up in a lot of TvT arguments, and scum doesn't tend to fight me too hard, idk, just an idea, I don't have a whole lot of time at the moment!!

VP loves to fight tho! He does as both alignments so it's not really AI imo.

This is true.

Although, I will say, I am much more comfortable being in fights as town because I have nothing to lose, and I often gain a better read on the person I'm fighting. As scum it tends to be much more defensive. But self-meta, ymmv

[VP Baltar]

In post 737, Sleepless Assassin wrote:

Unvote, Vote Gamma

This is better than Dunn. 732 feels more like someone who feels they have no value in this game once they're gone. I don't want to say survivalistic because it feels more like giving up but... I'm trying to think how to phrase this. Just the lack of any kind of "if I die do this" or "let me post some final reads" just feels like he thinks he's going down so his game is over. If that makes sense? It's hard to put words to it.

Coming back here, this stinks to high heaven to me. 1) There is no real explanation why Dunn is a bad wagon, just a desire to deflate the wagon. 2) SA was trying to feel out an Ico wagon in his previous post, but when no one bites he jumps on Gamma, where the momentum was starting to shift at this point. Very high Dunn-SA partner equity, which improving forecasts perhaps for Gamma.

In post 800, Sleepless Assassin wrote:

In post 789, Bingle wrote:
@SA

Fwiw contextually I’m pretty sure gamma has been going through rough times IRL (<3 Gamma). Does that info color your read of the wagon response?

Unvote

I can see where that would make it unmotivating to do townie things after being wagoned. Hope things get better soon Gamma. I still think Dunn is more likely town than Gamma so if the wagon pops back up as a counter to Dunn I'm probably jumping back on.

But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

Can we just do this? It feels like there's more support for it than the votes have suggested so far and usually when I get that feeling, it turns out I'm voting scum.

lol wut dafuq? (emphasis mine)

I'm just going back to review my own ISO following Pooky's accusation of chainsawing for Ico, and these posts stick out to me in particular as disproving his claim that I attacked SA as a clear chainsaw. Now that I'm at a computer it's much easier to see this, and why it absolutely came across to me like Pooky was cherry picking posts without looking at context.

This series of posts very clearly shows that what bugged me about SA at that time was his lack of an explanation for voting Gamma over Dunn. It seemed to me at the time like he was poking around for places to jump and was shading my wagon without a good explanation. Then he voted Gamma, then shortly after that he said he didn't find Gamma scummy at all. Ico's involvement is incidental at best if you're looking at the context of the posts.

Pooky is, of course, applying hindsight of knowing Ico's alignment and alleging bad intentions on my part. But my thought process is very clearly laid out in these posts, which is why I take offense to it being characterized as a chainsaw. SA-Dunn-Gamma were the primary focus of where my head was at in that fight with SA. I was very much focused on Dunn, and people fighting that wagon because that was my strongest scum read at the time.

[VP Baltar]

I don't like that Ico slacked off on the thread as soon as Datisi had a day off.

Me calling out Ico lurking at a not great time for him.

do you think i should be townreading you, vp?

You can have whatever read you want on me. I think it is illogical to put me in a scumpile with dunn/Gamma.

Those theories of the game are in direct conflict with each other. Or at least they would appear to be if i was in your shoes.

Seems a bit contrived.

So Fun and Games is equally bad with their readslist because they have me as scum *with* Dunn, whom I want yeeted today?

I haven't looked for associatives between you and Dunn yet. I will say that F&G hasn't struck me as super suspicious to this point. I saw you were making some kind of case against them in the last few pages. I'll give that a careful look when I do a detailed catchup post in a few hours.

Ico trying to undermine my wagon with a lame attack on F&G

do you think i should be townreading you, vp?

You can have whatever read you want on me. I think it is illogical to put me in a scumpile with dunn/Gamma.

Those theories of the game are in direct conflict with each other. Or at least they would appear to be if i was in your shoes.

Seems a bit contrived.

Me being the first person to call out Ico's scum reads list as questionable.

it's a very shallow and general binning of like 4? players?

When Ico tries to defend said scum list, I throw his own words back at him.

Opens game after day and a half gone:

Scummy
Dunn
GE
VP
Fun and Games

Oh well this should be entertaining.

It'll take me a minute to catch up this morning because I have some work to finish, but I can't wait to see how me and my scum reads are teammates.

Me being snarky at the original reads list (sorry shit is out of order, I was scrolling backward through my ISO)
---------------
Again, I think pooky was being very selective in look at my posts to come to a pre-determined solution last night (which he would do as town or scum). I'm not saying I was on the right wagon D1 -- I certainly was not -- but I don't see how you could look at my ISO and say I'm carrying water for ICO or even more ridiculously, that I town read that slot.

I'm not even scanning my ISO thorougly, I'm just picking from a single spot near where the SA stuff was and I'm scrolling backward. There's no lack of stuff here that contradicts the characterization Pooky put forward.

Bingle, did you actually look at the context of what Pooky was talking about or only at my responses from last night's fight before you voted me?

[VP Baltar]

funny how you shade ico but coveniently dont vote for ico and push people who are not named ico to die.

I did actually vote Darby toward the end of the day, but then ended up switching back to Gamma. Again, I'm barely skimming my ISO here and seeing this stuff.

You should admit you're being selective or weren't looking that hard. Ico and I had a notable amount of back and forth at times that was me putting a lot of questions to him, coupled with him attacking or undermining the wagons I was pursuing. It doesn't look remotely like a scum buddy relationship if you get into the details.

[VP Baltar]

wait a sec didnt you say you had ico at null

lol

yes. do you not question your null reads and press them though?

[VP Baltar]

that actually makes me scumread you more dude - you have reasons to scumread ico but you dont push for him to die, you just coveniently push everyone else lol.

if you had actually a townread on ico that looked reasonable it wouldn't look as bad for you to be chainsaw defending him.

The things I was questioning him about were not strong in my book. There was some logical inconsistency there that I was poking around trying to understand and see what the motivations were.

Hardest part was him saying he was busy IRL and then replacing out. Trying to separate out poor reading comprehension as busy town and lazy scum is a fine line that I was struggling to parse, hence the null read.

[VP Baltar]

wait a sec didnt you say you had ico at null

lol

yes. do you not question your null reads and press them though?

you r trying to make it sound like you suspect him and you called him out etc but you also claim he was null for you.

this is a contradiction.

Not at all. What I"m saying is you cherry picked stuff and claimed my whole ISO was bad around Ico, when that's simply not true. You're being deceptive with the knowledge that most people aren't going to go back and actually read these interactions. Now that I'm at a computer, I'm presenting the much fuller context you intentionally or unintentionally ignored last night. Sorry that's inconvenient for you.

[VP Baltar]

is he null or did you think he was a suspect

make up your mind dude lol

explained above. you can have the last word though. Trying not to clog the thread anymore. Just wanted to respond to stuff from my computer.

[VP Baltar]

Are you saying that what I posted as the core of skitters case not accurate?

You restated his accusations fine, but I guess what I'm saying is that I countered by saying what he was stating was very cherry picked and inaccurate --- to which you said it looked like I couldn't really defend. I was curious if you actually looked or were just taking pooky at his word because he was memeing.

I've pulled the fuller context around his accusations now that I think clearly shows what I was saying was correct.

[VP Baltar]

The pushback on monkey when you didn’t have a strong reason you’d stated to prefer gamma to ico.

I stated quite clearly why it weirded me out that A50 was dumping his preferred wagon all day.

I also think it's stating a pretty low opinion of my scumplay to think I'd throw a fit in thread in that scenario where a hypothetical buddy was going down. Darby would have been completely useless to me as scum and I would have bussed the fuck out of him without blinking an eye. Not like he was playing well and worth saving.

[VP Baltar]

Dude scumslipped in thread before the flip and you think VP would have been trying to save him at E-1. I know we haven't played together much...but does that come across to you like something I would do?

[VP Baltar]

Here is where I think we are at:

Toogeloo

- most likely town based on the way Ico flip flopped on this slot.

Sleepless Assassin

- town for actually attempting to solve. His positions evolve logically.

Fun and Games

- null to townish. Still think Pooky is making very opportunistic points and bad faith arguments, but he's sort of being the same asshat he was in Hidden Temple. I still don't like him lurking until I called him out and voted, but after much prying, I find the explanation believable enough.

Bingle

- early town read, but sliding to more nullish due to lack of engagement. When I sit back and try to think what Bingle has actually done since D1, I come up very blank. Could be paranoia on my part.

Dwlee99

- very hard to read since Not Mafia posted like himself, and Dwlee is low efforting as well. Null to scumish.

Enchant

- null to scumish. The hammers are objectively bad, but his aloofness kind of throws me as town vibey. This slot feels like my gut is saying town and my brain is saying scum.

Andante

- null to scummish. Also seems to be playing very opportunistically, and if F&G is town, is absolutely pocketing. Andante's reads seem very wrong (Gamma, me, toog) and she's not reading the game to attempt to correct them. She's been dodgey on basic questions, and I'm not a fan of the AtE. However, I'm pausing a bit on the way she backed off on me. That'd be completely unnecessary as scum there. I would have tried to press through my misyeet in that position by swaying dwlee and SA. Of course, galaxy brain, maybe she felt F&G did enough to put the nails in my coffin and she was looking for a way off? IDK. Of course, Penguin also camped on the Ico/Darby wagon early. This is a good reminder that I meant to go review his vote in relation to when he replaced. Note to self.


-----

Bottom half of my list is giving me a lot of headaches trying to sort. I feel most confident about Toog and SA. F&G is a bit of a wild card, and after that it's a fuck all if I know for sure.

Enchant has the most scummy vote play, but who would be his partner if that were true? Bingle? Dwlee?

[VP Baltar]

I come up very blank.

I tried to derail the gamma wagon in twilight and have struggled to keep up with the game since.

Is there something about the Gamma yeet that is affecting your ability to keep up? Other than last night, the pace of the game hasn't felt super fast to me.

[VP Baltar]

I'd be drinking after that too.

[VP Baltar]

Eh, I'm trusting toog for now.

VOTE: enchant

[VP Baltar]

I'm confused enchant, are those your reads or you're trying to mock me? It's like a mixed bag or something

[VP Baltar]

I am mocking you.

And yet, you're saying people are scummy who I don't think are scummy, so are these your reads? You think me-toog- SA is the most likely scum pool?

[VP Baltar]

I am mocking you.

And yet, you're saying people are scummy who I don't think are scummy, so are these your reads? You think me-toog- SA is the most likely scum pool?

Dwlee99, You, SA, Toog.

I have good feeling about everyone else.

I would argue this scumpool makes about as much sense as Ico's on D1.

What's scummy about toog?

[VP Baltar]

What about bingle's play do you find townie?

[VP Baltar]

What about bingle's play do you find townie?

Particularly post-D1?

[VP Baltar]

What's scummy about toog?

[VP Baltar]

He not even trying to find mafs, he trying to kill someone.

Idk, the argument he made about you seems more nuanced and at least accurate, namely that you have negative associatives with Ico and your hammers are suspicious.

You want to explain why you hammered Gamma so fast D2?

[VP Baltar]

Toog, can I get a couple sentences each on what you see in relation to SA, FG, Bingle and Andante?

[VP Baltar]

Did you think you were hammering?

[VP Baltar]

Did you think you were hammering?

I knew i am hammering.

Had you been suspicious of Gamma D1? I can't remember