Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Nauci]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

[Nauci]

Wait the primaries here are over

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Irrelephant11

[Nauci]

its like school all over again

I'll take YOU to school til you accept the facts
Join my superPACs, Bern is dumb as anti vax
Relax, my impacts pack a hell of a punch
Let's axe the backs of Bernie Bros til they crack or crunch

I am pro anti Bernie Bro

You may live for now

[Nauci]

I am enjoying this PR a lot

Pls don't stop

[Nauci]

I am enjoying this PR a lot

Pls don't stop

Can't stop, won't stop
Drop reads so I can BoP

Edit: PR = Post Restriction, no one's claiming cop
Keep playing the game, for now I'll be a backdrop

I once did an entire game in haikus and limericks

I may have been the only one amused but I was SO amused

Side note,

I'm about as serious as I could be at this point, Invis. Voting on policy for behaviors outside this game seems like the most pro-scum thing so far, plus I wanted to start building a wagon since everyone was splitting the votes.

Shoshin what "behaviors outside this game" are you referring to? ...are you saying Math was policy voting BS because of actual criticisms of the candidate Bernie Sanders?

[Nauci]

I'm not sure what to make of Math's attempt to discredit my play when he's never even interacted with me before. Anyone play with him before and know what he's like as town/scum?

Math very frequently reads/skims people's previous games for meta clues, and is generally really good at figuring out PR (moreso when he's scum), based on our game together where we were town, and a couple of previous games of his that I skimmed.

I usually put too much worth in meta but I've only played w/ Math and Irrelephant out of everyone here and I don't have enough time to deep dive people this time around, so I guess I'll have to actually put on my thinking hat.

That said, Irrelephant hasn't post yet and I am so very looking forward to it. My vote stays where it is.

[Nauci]

I signed up for this game because of Irrelephant so I'm looking forward to that too. I hope he's town.

Oh you've played with Irrelephant?

[Nauci]

No. there’s not a lot i can conclude from what has went down so far given the amount of time i have, but my gut has urged me to an early townlean on mathdino, so VOTE: naucy

Huh, weird.

I sliced myself open and printed on my guts was "otherwise"

Though it's mostly null

I'm not one to give (or have) reads in the first several pages though

[Nauci]

I signed up for this game because of Irrelephant so I'm looking forward to that too. I hope he's town.

Oh you've played with Irrelephant?

I feel so popular.

Early reads are hard

I’m fine with Shoshin’s push out of RVS. I’m enjoying math’s rapping and will sort him later

@Keyser explain 45 for me?

@Nauci why keep a vote on me after rvs is over and before I’ve posted? Do you have any scumreads yet?

@stun why couldn’t scum Keyser make those posts? Doesn’t seem like it’d be hard

VOTE: Skitter
Just a feeling. y’all should sheep me

Because you hadn't post yet

And because I will never trust you again unless we're masons together after that first game!

(Irrelephant11 and I were scum together; I replaced out but he was super universally town read and carried the game to flawless scum victory. It was beautiful!)

[Nauci]

Woah I didn't notice NSG was in here

HEY! I hear you've become quite a formidable player!

[Nauci]

My reads are mostly not enough data.

The strongest page 5 reads I have are that shosh/skitter are probably the same alignment, and that said alignment is town. Correcting for misconceptions by someone else about someone else feels town motivated to me because scum would just sit back and let the confusion do its thing.

I feel not great about Math thus far, and that I'm going to really struggle to read Keyser

Serious vote though, VOTE: Gamma Emerald for 100% 4/4 fluff posting

[Nauci]

P.S. Where is Mr. Sanders

[Nauci]

Serious vote though, VOTE: Gamma Emerald for 100% 4/4 fluff posting

Too easy. What don't you like about Math? And what're your thoughts on Stun?

Anyone not mentioned by name means I either null read their posts or null read their lack of posts.

My gut read on Math is that he hasn't been as towny as he could be thus far.

[Nauci]

mathdino you MFer I had to stop myself from actually getting into this bernie bro shit mad bait I was flooding tabs with news articles open and was going to get into polls and shit

I just finish binge watching the Wire s4 and you slap me right across the face with this where I least expect it

forget the game for a moment I WILL get you back on this one day somehow

meet me in the parking lot

lets debate nuclear energy and education financing

[Nauci]

I don’t like the transition here at all; shoshin goes from obsessing over skitter’s townread of mathdino to later asking what there isn’t to like about mathdino’s play; it seems like a very strange transition to make in a matter of hours with no explicit townread or townle on mathdino for the slot, so this makes its way onto my scumdar. These questions seem like their fishing for scummy responses to take advantage of

Skitter didn't townread Math. And I didn't really "obsess" over anything. So that's a pretty strange way to read the game.

I asked Skitter some questions and then I asked Naucy some questions. What's the "strange transition"?

You're a pretty aggro player so anything you dig into looks like (to hyperbolize) "obsessing"

Also pls my username is Nauci

[Nauci]

Hey I'll have you know that I am both extremely excellent at excuses

And also at actually doing things

...Occasionally...

When I'm not preoccupied with being really good at the first thing

Okay after a quick re-skim I'm feeling not good about how easily pushed back Stun was. Vote on me without follow up justification, even highlighting not asking anyone else to do so, and then very quick unvote from just being asked why. I mean it's relatively unimportant here that the vote was even on me vs anyone else because not much substance besides "didn't see town motivation" was ever discussed. The debacle is telling about Stun though, IMO.

Then again, I'm used to inexperienced scum who are shy, and I'm afraid there's plenty of experienced players here with plenty of gut.

Still feel pretty okay with Skitter, more null about Shoshin (who has a relatively aggressive style that I have a hard time reading because I have a slight emotional reaction to it).

Math I dislike PRs because they make it easier to obfuscate and I was hoping that wouldn't be the case but I very much dislike that you even outright said it'll get in the way. Rhyme all you want but don't use it as some shield to dodge requests for real content.

My vote stays until GE posts more, because that collection of posts is skirting under the radar pretty hard, even compared to other less noisy posters.

For some reason I can't seem to read momrangal/invis/Gemini posts and actually retain any of the info. I've read the game twice and can barely remember the gist of their posts and will have to read again. Maybe I should be asleep at 5 AM and try again later...

Side note, it's quite refreshing to go this many pages without setup speculation posts.

[Nauci]

that latter referring to my man the blue pokemon

Obligatory "um, actually, that's a neopet"

[Nauci]

Holy crap y'all were active on the weekend

I deep cleaned my boyfriend's nasty apartment for like 11 hours and have been recovering from the extraordinary soreness since

Catching up once I get home!

[Nauci]

Catch up through page 8

my answer: aside from nsg, i’d be most prone to join the gemini wagon as of right now because i don’t have any sort of town vibe from her yet, and i shared a town mason with her last game i played. i feel like her questions might have an intent of stirring the pot—so that would be my official reasoning. i would like to see more AI content from her. haven’t gotten much of that yet. i want to give her a chance to give some gamereads first though, because she’s not one i want to gang up on yet. after all, she’s the main reason i decided to join this game (well along with invisibility playing and mwnn’s alt modding). but i can’t deny that something feels off from her content so far.

@nauci: between the lurkers (players with 10 or less posts so far), which one(s) do you feel are most likely to be pushing forward a town agenda as of now, and which one(s) a scum agenda?

my answer: i have to go with nsg for scum agenda, because not having much substance to her posts is why i couldn’t gather much of anything when she was scum in the game i played with her where i was town and she was scum. my answer would be gamma emerald on the basis of making an effort to townread (townleans already on skitter and keyser soze), and not yet pushing forward any scumreads. i don’t see that sort of effort so far from any of the other lurkers

p-edit: @irrelephant: i’m not all “lynch the lurkers” at all. i’m adamant about pushing more content out of the lurkers, which is a clear difference. this is how i always play d1 as town, because i’ve learned from the mistakes of not doing so (case in point: lynchpin mafia where nsg and creature lurked their way to victory). and anyways, scum have a serious tendency on d1 to stay in the background, and we cannot allow that to happen. I definitely don’t like that you are the one arguing against lynching all lurkers, when your content so far could be considered lurker all by itself (7 posts with several of them looking like they may be trying to spread doubt about the gamestate + no given townreads), so spreading doubt about that doesn’t really look good to me coming from your perspective. it’d be different if it was someone like shoshin or keyser soze saying this, but it’s not in this case. i also don’t see how you are reluctant to townread keyser, the evidence is there

more questions to come as i try to make some early predictions. power went out while making this post, so had to switch from ipad to mobile. good thing i had everything copied already.

The whole issue w/ people lurking is that there's very little content to sort them by. I find that the #1 strategy for scum is coasting by (my unintentional AFK helped me out a TON in my game scumming w/ Irrelephant), so I couldn't have answered that beyond my existing vote on Gamma for having very nearly 0 substance posts at the time of my vote. Not sure how I feel about a few weak town reads since then. I need more posts to have any idea if there's even a discernible agenda from said lurkers, whether it's town or scum.

My opinion of NSG from the games I've seen is that she can be a little quiet early on but has every ability to town HARD as the game progresses. I'm not willing to vote there atm but definitely something I expect to see later on if she's town.

Day 1 (but also in general) my meta is to push less active posters, so my "lynch the lurker" stuff isn't just some lazy tactic. I think that talkative voices getting into fights has been what let scum hide almost every game I've participated in, so it tends to be the biggest red flag to me when I don't have meta knowledge on a player. I'm very much in agreement w/ Stun on this one.

it’s worth noting, actually, that gemini and i stated in a pm before this game that we were really looking forward to being the same faction again this game; so her replacing out might actually be a scum-indicative replace-out, especially with her doing it after she’s put under pressure for the first time. i prompted her to sign up for this game, and we were looking forward to playing with each other again.

but at the same time, this could also mean she’s got things going on irl, that she has general disinterest, or other things. so i want to give her replacement a chance first before i jump to any conclusions from this, but also want to throw it out there since i am town this game and had already sensed that she might be scum. sure enough, it’s a scumlean for me until further content develops, though

@skitter: what’s your reason to believe shoshin is scum playing super aggressively?

Hmm I'm not sure what the replacement speculation is worth.

Very much would like to see the Skitter/Shoshin question answered, however.

I am not a huge fan of Shosh's posts just because they're so unlike my style/way of thinking, but it does seem unlikely for scum to play so aggressively unless it's already in her meta, if anyone could enlighten us on that.

I don’t see the direction you’re heading with hem.

This series of questions/contributions felt like the most number of words for the least amount of sortable/productive content possible; still feeling not good about this slot.

[Nauci]

Through P11

201 204 Math I can't deal with your PR if I have no idea what you're saying

205

Okay so my one game with irrelephant was pretty intense. He played a brilliant scum while I had real life in my way. He's excellent at asking thoughtful (or at least thoughtful-sounding) questions and was hard town read by at least half of the game beginning day 1. He's also great at town reading people in ways that leave the slots open to plausible change of mind (like in that post). He's prone to lots of pre-planning and strategizing, increasingly so later in the game (we had probably the most active scum thread of the year in our little newbie game), and went from a relatively precocious posting style to rather aggressive mislynch pushing by day 3. Very excellent at spinning up mislynch reasons. I was both super excited about playing w/ him again, and totally dreading the amount of paranoia I am now going through because he's a damn good player.

I would expect a scumrelephant to keep FOSing me because I will be the most suspicious of him and be a pain in his side unless I die. Thus far I'd say he's a null read from me with a helping of extreme caution, so I'd be wary of a "oh he's making lots of effort" town sort, (semi-directed at Shoshin in 207 but also just generally). IMO, he can be sorted but only with a lot of pressure.

i'm too tired to think

I don't know your meta but this type of post usually is excellent smokescreening.

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

I like the reasoning you later post for this comment, but disliked that you like the posts town reading you.

quack quack

Oh gee oh boy hello

I was reading the game

because the rapping is

and soft mind melded with Gemini a couple of times so the slot was too good to pass up

Duckster is a lot of fun to play with but largely because he is a master of bullshitting sooooooo

Bernie I appreciate you wanting lurkers to not lurk but I find it hard to believe you think everyone who’s posted regularly reads town

Like just the plausibility that the scumteam is all lurkers atm is <1%

I mean I think we learned a hard lesson in the newbie game about taking the conversation away from prosecuting lurking and into "oh who of the loud people would be scum" based on some vague "oh there's no way all of the scum would be lurking/off (or on) wagon" or whatever. Especially in d1.

I know because I taught that lesson to the game haha.

...but I know you know so I'm moving you into the bad-feels pile for this one.

nauci who would you look at if you ignored gamma for a second?
he can take some time to warm up tbh

I take a pressure-the-lurkers stance for at least half of day 1 usually because I have a hard time forming reads off of just a handful of posts. At best, I can think that any particular set of posts was plausibly scum-faked, or motivated? I'd say I have bad-feels about irrelephant, nsg, and the worst, and bad "I can't read this at all which is bad in itself" feels about gamma, math, and invis. I feel not-bad about shosh, keyser, Bernie, and my not-bad feels about skitter have cooled down to null for the moment.

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

why exactly for the record?
I'm only saying this because it reminds me of when I townread lovebird one time for somewhat comparable townread/paranoia/elsewhere progression (except it was harder; my thought was why bother faking that strange progression?)

Yes, that's part of it. Also:

158 shows a very clear and natural thought process for town to have - "oh, Sho is town but I disagree with her because it looks like it's more of a misunderstanding" - but it's also a thought process that's pretty foreign to scum and not easy to fake. Scum usually express agreement with someone when townreading them, or disagreement when scumreading. But disagreement coupled with townreading in a situation where that's a perfectly natural thought process is pretty difficult to fake.

168 shows some natural second-guessing that town tend to have in these types of situations.

169 reflects some of the thoughts I was having about Gemini at the time and that I'm sure a lot of town would have when figuring out who to vote. I think scum would have jumped onto someone that was already being voted at this point instead of pursuing something new.

A+ post would love to see more "here's what made me feel bad" posts; there's always the argument that directly calling something out might make scum more aware of what they're doing wrong and correct it but I don't know if I think that's a super convincing argument.

[Nauci]

279

Agreed on Shosh, like these explanation posts, agreed on momrangal (append to "I can't seem to read this slot" list).

I liked 283 quite a bit. Not-bad vibes are back on the menu.

284 :< Stupid sexist internet statistics. This is the most women I've ever seen in one mafia game (...or maybe on any internet forum thread I've participated in...), which is neat.

Stun, that's a very odd way to use/define "take advantage of" to the point where it doesn't make sense except as a retcon explanation.

Agreed with 285 on the question to duckster: what were those "couple of times"?

Side note, I think that putting the worst under a lot of pressure makes him very sortable, but this is mostly based on the one instance where Mathdino hounded him until the end of the earth one game, to great results.

I liked Keyser's p13, except I disagree with 308 because I think that it's totally natural for town to want to jump in and correct a misinterpretation if the misinterpretation post was as hard-stanced as Shosh's, because it would be bad for town to make a multi page fuss on a false premise. I think getting everyone on the same set of facts is pro-town.

320 I really hate these imposed/self declared posting style explanations. Even if they're true, that's a lot of smokescreening for very scummy behavior.

338 Suuuuure...

(This is less poem_for_your_sprog and more poem_from_a_scum thus far

I know you love to self-meta and others-meta and just generally metabolize all over mafiascum but that one's a pretty weak WIFOM!)

I was a lot less concerned about your format, and a lot more about your content. I know you can put up great content, so it would be unacceptable for you to not do so

and attribute that to the gimmick

.

346 I'm not sure if I've ever played w/ non-scum Alisae but boy is Alisae is the star of aggressive gimmicking when scum. So entertaining. So suspicious.

[Nauci]

[quote]377[/post] While I agree your alignment becomes more obvious later on, you're a great enough player that I am also constantly paranoid about you as well, short of if you hard play against scum win-con.

385 Someday I will figure out what you think my glaring town tell is >:C

394 Not really seeing this after 178?

421 Disagree w/ Irrelephant. Seems reasonable to agree w/ momrangal's post while questioning why she seems to have blinders on. This plus 423 feel like a disingenuous push.

I'm also confused about what more you want from skitter, who I feel like has been one of the 3 most transparent posters.

426 Unrelated. I just happen to be a HRC fangirl with a hatred for misogynistic Bernie Bros (shoutouts to quitting reddit for a massive QoL improvement). I'm super politically active so I enjoy dicking around w/ this theme.

452 Maybe The Worst

460 Excellent question

I do however, think that tunneling on one player with only a few posts is oddly not scum indicative. It's weird, but I don't know what it means? One player in Irrelephant and I's game tunneled me so hard (and w/o much explanation) the whole game that it just confused everyone and, if anything, made me less scumread. But it was just ??? and not scummy.

470 these reads are... so close to general opinion that I am suspicious.

I think 483 feels very towny unless shosh/invis are scum together.

491 My rule of thumb that I absolutely don't vouch for is that, when heavily pressured, scum!tw becomes exponentially more dodgy/bullshitter, and slightly more serious as town. (based on one game w/ him and skimming a couple of others)

495 Huh. Looking back, I agree w/ irrelephant's read of me. I've only been scum basically twice but I definitely played it pretty differently/fast and loose that last game.

However, I'm basically always pretty casual/memey/contributing observations without evaluations or correcting misinterpretations for the first 10-15 pages of a game because I can't fathom how people get real reads from so little data. When I have the time, town me gets reeeeaall tryhard deep meta divey, but that's not always the case. And I have a habit of saying shit like "ugh I don't have time to post because X" and then pulling an all nighter posting like a 1900 word thesis because sleep is for the dead, which may be what Math thought my town tell was.

Hell at this very moment, I'd busted up my right hand pretty badly and it hurts to type and I almost post about it but nope, I'm on my laptop typing away.

500 Holy crap TIL proxying is a thing

502 Hahahaha yeah every time I read about it I think the same thing

503 This is bizarre and I have no idea what to make of it

511 it sounded to me like Keyser wanted to see them duke it out because people 1v1ing generally creates lots of sortable content, but that's through a biased lens because I am extremely of that philosophy

514 Ouch. Clairvoyance by Keyser at 400. Very sad; love seeing NSG tryhard. Sorry about the burn out; hope to see you again in some other game!

518 Oddly enough, I thought the replace out made you/nsg scum less possible, but this post actually swung it back the other way. Like it's totally plausible to me that she was totally quiet in said scum thread, and you therefore smelled a replace out coming and post about it, but in that context you'd think people would immediately be suspicious that you called it and pre-emptively want to say otherwise. Bit WIFOM, but that's just the thought that crossed my mind.

[Nauci]

Oh man skitter v shosh is everything I'd hoped it would be

Agreed on 549.

569 While grossly metagaming, I think this is not totally impertinent, and feels consistent with NSG personality.

578[/post//[post]583 I post this kind of crap when I'm unmotivated scum so it's hard not to read it this way

586 I read it as disagreeing with reasoning. There's a ton of conflating disagreement with a scum-read and defense in this game and I think it's anti-town. If I disagreed with "Nixon is a crook because he has a shitty hairline," it wouldn't be because I wanted to defend Nixon. Maybe I'm biased because I'm the kind of pedantic nut who spent half of a game constantly criticizing and correcting a player I town read (the team mafia tie-breaker game, where people constantly thought I was scum reading Sky_Paladin for how much I criticized his posts for bad attacks on a player I didn't town read).

591 I disagree wrt irrelephant. The bizarre push on Skitter despite being one of the most active posters, and possibly nervous turn off from Keyser, feels bad to me. Side note, IIRC Irrelephant generally wasn't a fan of bussing and would avoid it if possible (even when I suggested bussing me multiple times. He was right about that in the newbie game though).

597 lol this makes me put BS in my town pile regardless of what TW is

612 he literally linked his profile and games?

Okay finally caught up; writing general thoughts post after submitting this

[Nauci]

Damnit how did I swap a ] with a /

[Nauci]

Here have a listicle

• Nauci
  • I don't like self meta any more than y'all do but I want to give a few bullet points:
    
  • I generally gives 0 fucks about how I'm perceived in the game. If I am challenged on a specific thing or if someone has misinterpreted something I said, I'll address that. Otherwise, I just endeavor to town harder.
    
  • I don't give any reads or alignments sorts until I actually have them and IDGAF how much pressure someone likes to apply.
    
  • I'm extremely capable of separating someone's read of me with my evaluation of the circumstances of how they read me as if it was any other player and their content.
    
  • I don't sheep. And I generally don't play by wagon-meta until it's close to hanging time (if at all). Don't call my votes vanity >:C
    
  • I will get exhaustibly pedantic to correct a misconception so try not to make any or I will be here arguing w/ you on it for 9 pages.
    
  • Mentioned Games:
    • Newbie 1863 Scumming with Scumrelephant11
      
    • Open 719 Town with TownDino and Scum Worst (and Brassherald)
      
    • Team Mafia Tiebreaker, where I hit record levels of pedantry
      
    • Newbie 1834 Scum but kind of a fluke game
• stungun0404
  • Probably my strongest TR. I like most of Stun's posting even when I didn't agree w/ them. Hope this isn't just from being biased for effort.
• skitter30
  • Generally good feelings. Biased because we seem to have very similar perspectives/feelings at a whole lot of times in the game, but I think that I can reasonably give town points for that.
    
  • Lots of active discussion points and willingness to explain thought processes and feelings that seems difficult to fake.
• Bernie Sanders
  • Generally good feels. Pretty solid posting.
    
  • I don't know if it's wise but I put TW's vouch in the list of good things; I just feel that scum TW would still try to pocket here.
• Keyser Soze
  • Not seeing what some posters' complaints about writing style and whatnot are about. See generally pro-town good posting from here.
• Mathdino
  • I have a slightly town lean on Math atm. Was being overly difficult to read earlier, but has made an effort to be less absurdist just to rhyme. I'm willing to give Math room to get more involved, because tossing out a bunch of town reads is pretty town!math
• Shoshin
  • This is why I split my "null" into 2 groups: null because I don't know what to feel vs null because i feel lots of things in lots of directions. Shoshin is a bit polarizing in posting style and hard for me to figure out. I want to town lean but maybe I'm compensating for my bias too much. Feeeeeels like she's just gotten into a lot of TvTs though, so I guess kinda town lean?
• Gamma Emerald
  • Null. Super null. Small contributions but no brave or new insights. Some agreements, fluff 253 320, and shallow deep-thoughts (318 319)
• Momrangal
  • I don't really know how to feel about this one. Not pro-town, but not necessarily scummy just because not much effort (lots of basically empty posts). "Not-great" pile vs "bad vibes" pile.
• Irrelephant11
  • I'd like to TR Irrelephant, but thus far I am not seeing the strong performance I expected. Even while scum, Irrelephant put up a good scum hunting game in 1863. More defensive posts and less active hunting, IMO.
    
  • As previously mentioned, Irrelephant avoided attacking me even when I was putting up a poor performance. Feels too favorable to lurkers/momrangal without great justification, while keeping up cases on some of the most active/vocal/potentially great scumhunting players in the game (BS, Keyser, Skitter) that don't feel forced instead of robust, and potentially pocketing Shosh (which was rather successful in our game on a few people)
    
  • Acknowledging the "bad" vote on Skitter doesn't really address it at all? Admitting it's bad just means that we're all in agreement it was bizarre.
    
  • Excited for this 516 promise
    
  • I don't want to scumread Irrelephant because it'd be awesome if we were town together, and I tried to not read with too much bias from my obvious paranoia of his brilliant scum play, but I came away from the catch up with less good feelings than I had hoped. I could see plausible associations w/ Mom or Shosh or TW (or even Math), while NOT w/ Bernie/Skitter/me/Keyser.
• northsidegal
  *
  • Bad vibes about the slot but the thread has already beaten this horse to death so I'll wait for a replacement.
• Invisibility
  • Apathy isn't cool and edgy, yo.
    
  • Vvv bad vibes. Such flippancy. Such attitude. Not going to let this one skirt under the radar. Naughty list!
• GeminiTwin12/the worst
  • TW your bullshitting is definitely indicative of apathy, but your apathy is also indicative of scumminess! I had hoped for better but haven't seen the kinds of posts that my skims of Town Worst games had. However, I do concede that pressure won't necessarily make his posting any better if he's town.

I hope that was listacular enough to give y'all some listicular torsion contusions

[Nauci]

491 My rule of thumb that I absolutely don't vouch for is that, when heavily pressured, scum!tw becomes exponentially more dodgy/bullshitter, and slightly more serious as town. (based on one game w/ him and skimming a couple of others)

*takes notes*

I post that because I this is like the placebo effect; being aware of it doesn't necessary change it.

I'm telling you rn if you wagon me to L-1 nothing will change.

VOTE: The Worst

I honestly couldn't decide where to throw my vote but then I read this

hey now you don't tell me what to do!

Also this only brings you to -2

[Nauci]

I find it hard to believe that Nauci "wants to townread" Irrelephant yet doesn't. She observes differences between his play here and his play as scum, she says his play as scum is strong and his play here weak, but she scumread him for that? He's been pretty careless this game and a lot less calculated with his posting than he was as scum, so why would someone who wants to townread him instead scumread him? I get the feeling that Nauci's faking the scumread and she keeps saying that she wants to townread (i.e. the opposite of what she's actually doing) to hide her actual intent (i.e. faking a scumread).

Only 5 min so quick response

I want to TR Irrelephant because he is my friend but he put up a great performance as scum so my desire to TR is totally overwhelmed by my paranoia, if that makes sense? The mind is willing, but the trust is spongy and bruised, you know?

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it: I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

I think that it's very good to get explanation and opinion posts from Irrelephant and not just these question and stir the pot posts that made him sound so town, because it wasn't until opinions had to be tossed around explicitly that he was alignment readable in our game. I'll link some examples of what I mean later from our game and our shamefully manipulative scum thread.

[Nauci]

the worst enters the game and begins his obsession with telling us Bernie Sander's is town:

"are you town bernie?"

[Who don’t you want lynched today?]

"Bernie"

"Bernie Sanders struck me as very towny"

"Are people scumreading Bernie here?"

"I strongly suspect Mr. Sanders is town"

"Bernie Sanders remains probably my strongest townread"

Reeks of over-compensating. Stinks of over-kill. it's making me theorize some interesting associations...

Hmm this is a good point. I didn't take into account that that behacior could mean wrt BS, especially in the context of their recent conversation. I'm not sure what exactly it means but I will put this in my thoughts bucket.

[Nauci]

If anyone wants reactions from me regarding any specific Nauci points, just ask. I had the same thought as Shoshin, overall - Nauci knows I'm better than this as scum (not to mention the help I'd be getting from most possible scummates on a playerlist that averages pretty talkative & experienced). I'm messy, unfocused, and acting overconfident, and it's because I'm still figuring out how to play as town.

Your meta-tell must be strong for Nauci. Impressive if you caught scum in a few posts.

reminding myself to respond to this later

My response here is that I wanted pressure on Nauci to determine her alignment, but as someone mentioned already it doesn't work if you present it as pressure. I actually *didn't* have a good feel before these long posts. Her scumread of me feels fake, though. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but that would require something like "well maybe if she had thought it through more" which, clearly, I was actually #1 on her mind (I'm flattered btw). Not townreading Nauci rn.

More thoughts on all players coming soon

1: I know you're really good at certain things, but that what you were great at in that game was done when there wasn't anything like the pressure you've faced in this game, so you could keep doing the Good Questions Posts. Your defense can't be "I would never slip and not sound town as scum, so I'm not scum!" That's absurd. We know it's possible to make you nervous and that it impacts your post quality (p.s. I'm sorry if after being in the trenches together I am now using that knowledge to nail you to the wall. Can we still be fronds?).

2: I feel like "scumread sounds fake" is something you pushed several times in our game to mislynch... Post links later when I get to a computer.

3: if you want to refute any of the reasons I am scum reading you, you'll have to come up with better evaluations of the other players in the game. If you want to just try to de-legitimize me by FOSing me (also something we did in that game, poor Teacher), that will make me far more suspicious but hey if you get me mislynched, go you I guess. But once I flip green I don't think you're going to have a good time.

VOTE: Irrelephant11

Serious vote.

[Nauci]

I was once a huge jerk like this to drive my own boyfriend to crumble in a game of secret Hitler because he was a dirty fascist so don't take it personally ;D

[Nauci]

@brassherald:

Can we know if scum has daychat or not?

This information will not be made public.
-Brass

Irrelephant11 says they do

[Nauci]

It's referring to your claim that your teammates would be helping you polish, which would imply day chat

[Nauci]

I seem to recall pointing out that I ask about day chat all the time regardless of alignment due to a thing that happened in one of my newbie games

I have many opinions of Irrelephant11 but I will wait for your write ups on other players (as in anyone except you, but including the thoughts about me) to give you a chance to change my mind first

[Nauci]

[*]

Mathdino

• I have a slightly town lean on Math atm. Was being overly difficult to read earlier, but has made an effort to be less absurdist just to rhyme. I'm willing to give Math room to get more involved, because tossing out a bunch of town reads is pretty town!math

eh throwing out townreads is really easy and doesn't commit to anything like scumreads would
I was expecting going into the game to see a lot from mathdino on the people he played with previous here to really analyse but as of yet it's some kinda boring statements and not so much stances or analysis on their alignments here

I fully agree that throwing out a bunch of town reads isn't very strong play for day 1. I think I criticized him on that thing in our last game. But, I do think it is very consistent with town Math d1 play and that he tends to throw out town reads but become aggro about his POE scum reads later on.

But I should really refrain from being as meta dependent as Math is haha

[Nauci]

I seem to recall pointing out that I ask about day chat all the time regardless of alignment due to a thing that happened in one of my newbie games

I have many opinions of Irrelephant11 but I will wait for your write ups on other players (as in anyone except you, but including the thoughts about me) to give you a chance to change my mind first

First point: I was inquiring about what Irrelephant said, not you
Second point: is this at me, and wtf does it mean?

I was responding to Irrelephant's post but quoting is kind of a mess on mobile sorry

[Nauci]

Reading the worst in 1870 does a ton of heavy lifting for the game even super early and does a ton of just picking at things in general (in a useful way). Highlight this as well on what he says his approach would be if not much in scumreads which hasn't really happened either, mostly other people have been engaging him not other way around

Now OTOH sharing is caring scum TW still does seem to throw some votes around more (suggesting TW is just less interested here even compared to say his scum games) though his play is a lot more fluffy and there's less focus with his pokes (it reads more random which is what this game feels like).

In Pick your power as town again I see a lot more focus and direction in TW. I get the impression that while TW has some fluff or fun in games it's more balanced as town whereas here it dominates and I'm left wondering what he's doing or trying to accomplish

RE: Low interest
TW has claimed very low interest in this game and this is just almost certainly the case regardless of his alignment. However speculation as to why TW is not interested here is relevant IMO

A) replaced into scumread slot as town and not feeling it
I know this can be a thing that happens but this is exactly why I try to avoid immediate harsh pressure/judgment on replacement slots in general. But I've held out, I don't think TW was given that much of a hard time on replace, and I think he got a fair whack of time to get comfortable but still didn't really impress with it. If anyone thinks I'm being way off base with this judgment of the situation please say so but I feeling like I've been pretty charitable here and not confbias

B) replaced into scumread slot as scum and the "dead inside over it" tell
My impression is scum generally have a lot worse time dealing with replacing into bad situations exactly because they're overly self conscious about it and they feel the case against them as worse than it may actually look (because if scum they know what is likely-but-uncertain evidence to others is actually true and so the case is more solid from that viewpoint). I had a game that really highlighted to me here where I thought transcend had an okay chance of defending and there were other viable lynches but he acted very uncharacteristically defeated because of the situation he found himself, to the point where I wondered why he replaced in at all if not to play. Granted that's more extreme a situation than here and there also were PRs involved which did make the game very unlikely for him though he could've easily still survived that given day

Didn't think this would get this long. Again, very interested to hear cross reference with people with experience, atm skitter and nauci if anything have a similar take and others (@@@Mathdino) IIRC haven't spoken up much yet. I may have missed something though so please highlight it if so.

I think I had a harder time participating in my last game because I was scum, even though I was pretty enthusiastic about the game as a whole (see scum PT spam). I didn't make my giant catch up post in time despite writing up 1400 words in a .txt (which is why I portioned it out here as I went instead of waiting until fully caught up), and got replaced out because AFK. Brass subbed into my slot and also got hit with the apathy hammer even though I've seen him pull off some fantastic posting as town, so I suspect that it affected him. Quick picked it up last and didn't even read the game/try much and I suspect because he also felt defeated about being scum but also that being lower activity actively helped the slot a lot.

It's anecdata but lends the theory credibility, IMO.

[Nauci]

I think I had a harder time participating in my last game because I was scum, even though I was pretty enthusiastic about the game as a whole (see scum PT spam). I didn't make my giant catch up post in time despite writing up 1400 words in a .txt (which is why I portioned it out here as I went instead of waiting until fully caught up), and got replaced out because AFK. Brass subbed into my slot and also got hit with the apathy hammer even though I've seen him pull off some fantastic posting as town, so I suspect that it affected him. Quick picked it up last and didn't even read the game/try much and I suspect because he also felt defeated about being scum but also that being lower activity actively helped the slot a lot.

It's anecdata but lends the theory credibility, IMO.

Mmm I don't doubt the theory it's just always a case of how much it applies specifically (I can almost guarantee the trend on average but on the individual level there's so many extra variables)

So the games I previously skimmed led me to believe that TW is more bullshitty and less tryhard when scum, but he claims it's just general apathy.

I think this calls for asking for links to more apathetic town or tryhard scum games.

I do think that tw tends to step in more when the rest of the game is more laid back, and vice versa.

P.S. to any town PR out there, don't crumb one damn thing because Math is purportedly a PR killer with a super high rate of PR murdering if scum. According to him in that one game, at least, where he spent a ton of time self metaing.

@Math: wait are you going to actively try to change your meta to be less readable like in this game but also fall on your meta to defend yourself a lot

You can only have one of those things

[Nauci]

i try not to focus on associatives pre-flip because i kinda get fucked over if i think about it too much without real data, and then tend to find evidence that fits the theory instead of the other way around.

he probably isn't scum with nauci, but i dislike that he lampshaded the associatve in

Hey at least now you can all probably see that me/Nauci isn’t s/s wooo

if nauci is scum with him she'd have to have literally started a bussing wagon which i find kinda unlikely.

irrelephant doesn't have a read on tw as far as i can tell?

this is the last time 'the worst' appears in his ISO by ctrl+f; he doesn't mention gemini or 'duck' anywhere at all.

I can't read the worst tell me more

shoshin just listed a scumpool of five (incidentally including tw) and he was like, ok, sure, that's cool, lets be buddies now; i don't think that has much significance wrt tw being a potential irrelephant partner. i'm actually more concerned about the buddying he was doing there-ish to shoshin than his tw read, especially since she was focusing more on other players in that pool at the time (ie me), so if tw was theoretically a partner he might not be too worried that town!her had FOS'd partner!tw there. basically i don't think shoshin's scumread of tw there is really significant or indicative of partners either way.

The weird thing about my game with Irrelephant was that despite me over lurking and working on that Master thesis catch up post I never finished, almost no one pressed me on it. Irrelephant11 actually pushed my slot the most out of everyone in the game except the tunneled person, but this was only maybe 2 questions in 30 pages. I think he tends to try not to talk about associates, which is why I previously mentioned the potential TW association because his only comment was that he can't read TW (which is what he said about me that game).

He had a tendency to sheep others' ideas relatively readily so any criticisms of town would be magnified, so I'm going to be continuously pressing for deeper explanations of his reads to strip that comfortable method away.

Invisibility catch up posts were sorely disappointing. I honestly don't know who I want off the island more right now between some of the options.

[Nauci]

T_T cutting my write up on my naughty list because my smashed thumb looks infected af and I should go see a doctor (who wants to see pics!!).

Hopefully I can type it up tonight or tomorrow

I have thoughts on the ones that aren't Irrelephant11 but I was reading their past games because I don't know much about them. Maybe I'll dive the town reads later too, but I'm starting a 9-6 programming boot camp on Thursday so maybe I just have to forego the meta work

[Nauci]

I continue to vibe with Skitter and Stun, and TR Keyser and BS when when we don't agree

I think it's better to make cases for scum instead of trying to clear who you think is town because I don't think it's a distraction to turn over every rock—so long as it's not preventing us from turning over the other rocks.

@The Worst: PRETTY SUPER DUPER PLEASE tell us what those couple of mind meld moments with Gemini you mentioned were? That was a pretty big dollop of potentially "yeah this sounds good" bull to drop and I'm not letting you go on that one. It doesn't take any time or bandwidth to think about and contribute to the game with because clearly you've either already thought about what they are or should just come clean about making it up.

TIA

[Nauci]

re:

consistently focusing on refuting a certain person’s

points who looks town in an attempt to spread doubt/confusion.

oh, i do that to everyone if i think they're wrong; my read on him isn't really relevant.

I must admit being super empathetic with this style. I got to epic levels of pedantry in the Team Mafia Tiebreaker game because I was *so* unbelievably frustrated with Sky_Paladin constantly being *wrong* about stuff, despite reading him as town. I was constantly correcting him because I think it's very anti-town to post incorrect information and thought it was bizarre that he was doing so consistently, when he seemed definitely town to me. It was hugely distracting from actual scum hunting and we probably would have lost if GIF wasn't Jesus Christ himself.

As an aside, that's a game where Bellaphant and I were constantly on the same wavelength and agreed on so many points that we liked each other despite our best efforts to remain neutral, and everyone kept FOSing us for it. In fact, I kept declaring that I had the same reactions to things that Bella did *but wasn't town reading her for it because I was wary of pocketing.* What I learned from the experience is that sometimes town just agree on stuff and have similar thought processes, and that it's actually more indicative that they are town too if it is done organically enough. I think it's difficult to fake it well (but I'm sure that does happen).

Okay, responding to some stuff directly about me before jumping into some deep dives coming up tonight. It'll take me several hours at least.

[Nauci]

Nauci is probably town. 749 discouraging any sort of town player from even crumbing a power role seems like a town-motivated push, not a scum-motivated push. I still need to see more from here, however, to upgrade my read on her.

This is a good point
Hm
You’re perceptive

Wait.

A question that just occurred to me: if you do believe in the theoretical soundness of my point, then what is making you feel justified to keep your vote on nauci? especially when you already acknowledged in your 753 that naucy is sounding towny sometimes yourself. is this just a placeholder vote, then? because it’s bothering me right now how your vote is left there hanging.

VOTE: Irrelephant

Funny enough, I think that of everything Irrelephant has said, this determination to scum read me based on my case on him makes me less suspicious of him. It feels like an instinctive OMGUS instead of a mislynch push because he could just as easily not make these "oh that's a good point" posts when I'm trying to start a wagon.

[Nauci]

676 @Keyser:

I want to make it clear that I'm not defending Skitter here, but rather the specific behavior you are questioning. I firmly think that correcting misinformation is important and can be disconnected from alignment sussing.

I managed to get unbelievably mad that one game because Sky kept both making wrong statements AND accusing me of tunneling him as scum because I kept mopping up after him. Misinformation is anti-town. Period. (Side note: I am VERY careful about when I say scummy versus anti-town for reasons like this.)

695 No commentary of use here but vertically symmetrical fake Ben Frank is perturbing as hell

726 So I think that it's very difficult for anyone to answer questions about what I'm like when scum, because I've only had 1.5 scum games here and a baby one on a different (private WoW) forum like 3 years ago. The first one was in a newbie where I was fairly aggressive pushing a mislynch IIRC and succeeded but my partner accidentally hammered so they figured him out immediately and with the way things were in that game I basically conceded (I probably shouldn't have but it was amazing how much the game was basically POEd by the start of day 2).

The game w/ Irrelephant I was actually super ill in the first half and constantly on opioids for pain that made me loopy, give 0 fucks, and write in an ultra casual style (and have a very short temper), before I got better and too busy catching up on work to play.

If you read the scum pt though you'll find that I'm happy to pull emotionally manipulative things like asking to be bussed or whatever, but also that I struggled to make meaty scum hunting posts and kept delaying my catch up post and wasn't motivated to really actually do it. Sounding genuine when you're as wordy and overanalysis-prone as I am is hard af

I've made relatively aggressive pushes in the past on day 1 but only as town, and sadly I was usually wrong (which is why I'm going to ISO irrelephant + the worst and try to shake off my preconceived notions later).

OK be back in a few hours I have errands to run and thumbs to ice

My d1 lynch pool is still anyone shaded red in my listicle

[Nauci]

Gemini asked people to elaborate when reading!me was like "yeah I'm not totally sure I see those reads" which was a solid start. her commentary on your comnon sense defence of rvs math was good too (this game pwned rvs)

considering how young this game is I think I've pretty much seen what I'd expect from town!you if that makes sense? like its not a strong read lol, what makes you ask?

My bad; I didn't realize what this was in response to before

[Nauci]

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I also disagree and alot of her posts have alot of words and doesn't seem to really do anything or take much of a stance even when she kinda does. Though it is very stream of consciousness so

Even w/o knowing Irrelephant, I'm not seeing how this pinged you as town?

WRT my posts, yes, a lot of them are stream of consciousness because I tend to make lots of posts addressing individual points and occasional listicles where all of the things I am taking into account are coagulated into reads. Like I've said multiple times, even when I'm not ready to make a reads post I respond to things addressed to me or other noteworthy items.

I treat mafia like a courtroom and like I'm presenting evidence/data points; I don't like to just state MOMRANGAL GIVES ME BAD VIBES GET ON THIS WAGON or something. I think that if town all see the same set of data, we can draw better conclusions.

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Sure it was weird, but Gemini was engaging before she ghosted. It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

I think this is a very bad faith post. I remember several people commenting on the worst's posting, I specifically wrote about him and my experiences/read of his meta (I don't think I even commented on his predecessor), and BS wrote a whole meta schpiel about his play. I can't tell if you're selectively reading or deliberately misrepping.

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

Trick question you're always bullshitting

don't give me that phoney AtE crap. if you think it's fake tell me why you think it's fake. the fact you're trying to call me out on a personality thing when you don't know me is g r o s s

but also most of the player list just feels totally resigned with my lunch. like if I was revealed as IC where would people even go?

You'll notice that several of us moved our votes off of you. I was waiting for these purported effort posts down the pipe, and what we're getting is just garbage defensive posts and I'm not sure how I AM NOT A CROOK is going to help you out here.

I'd look to invisibility, also maybe gamma or even the NSG slot (mostly on a poe basis).

I think if you're town you should try to talk about or case who you think is most likely scum here and convince or work us through your thoughts rather than why people should stop focusing on you.

^This is a good post.

828 Aww Stun I am sads :< It was fun playing with you!

This game has some great players but it's frustrating to try and scumhunt w/ quite a few lurkers/absent players.

@brassherald If it takes a long time to find replacements, can we get an extension?

[Nauci]

Irrelephant Write Up

Each section is super long. Tl;Dr at the bottom, "summary" in Conclusions, details and links if you really wanted that much detail, but at that point you should just skim those threads.

This will definitely read like I'm tunneling on Irrelephant, but I'm really not. Even though I have only one game with Irrelephant and I haven't seen his town game, we were very chatty with our innermost thoughts in our shamefully manipulative scum thread. I have the most insight into Irrelephant's play so, unlike most D1s, I have an unusually strong negative feeling about his posts. I still don't have him in my scummiest pile, because a lot of my distrust is from him being able to make pro-town posts as scum.

Tl;Dr Irrelephant is absolutely brilliant and thinks 11 steps ahead of the game and can fake the best of town effort posts, so don't bank on that. He has employed several scum ploys we discussed in our scum pt so I get very bad vibes. His weakness is being rattled under pressure/accusations that hamper his ability to fake aforementioned tryhard posts AND having the "this feels fake" posts challenged for more detail.

Spoiler: Newbie 1863 Scum PT highlights

Well prepared. Read several games before playing, mused about faking a townslip and even a fake claim, and says he'll use a "oh I'm new to this" excuse. Sound familiar?

12 Links the Stop Bussing! article. This turned out to be excellent because I would have been an avid busser otherwise. Mentions that he should not town read partners because of association but also not scumread hard.

Can get very nervous when pressured. (Evidenced in several more posts.)

26 Speculation about trying to shade the most threatening players. Continued theme.

Early town bloc rumination

Irrelephant planned his posts like a game of chess, with much ruminating about potential lynch orders, who would be good to pocket, who is the most threatening, who would be the easier to frame threatening player. He's very keenly aware of associations (something I almost never paid attention to until playing that game), both in other players and his own optics. He's also keenly aware of the advantages of being strategically inactive and mentions it several times.

Doing my best to keep multiple people in the scumlight, while not looking mislynch-happy. Hard to balance...

Side note, I did somewhat aggressively push one of the players initially (because it's exactly what town me would have done), and then had trouble faking it when I realized he was 100% a TPR. So I guess we'll call that one NAI (I've run up D1 wagons on Mathblade and Thor and Lord Gurgi etc. etc. as town).

89 He came up with the entirely dastardly and dumb-risky superevil move where we skipped the first NK which ended up framing Thor hahaha. Good times bud.

N1/D2 is largely setup/no kill speculation/debating fake claiming

There's a lot of intense speculation on how to frame a town player while not looking bad. He begins to make really tryhard posts postulating stuff like player X seems plausible with any other person as scum while ruling out other associations.

D3 Irrelephant posting goes from precocious to pretty aggressive, even chainsawing at times and works hard to keep brass from being lynched.

Spoiler: Newbie 1863 Thread Notes

Irrelephant ISO

Irrelephant is a pretty pro-town scum. Lots of great questions like in #64 and observatios phrased as questions. I say this because I think that I usually TR people for this level of effort/content/scum hunting, but that is absolutely not a safe thing to feel when it comes to Irrelephant. Also lots of shade-throwing or smokescreening hypotheticals and back-and-forth wavering, like in #64 or #69 or #108.

I take back the credit I gave earlier for those "good point" posts because of stuff like this.

Irrelephant does a very good job of keeping most players open as lynch options, and spends a ton of time on tryhard setup speculation posts that look extremely effortful and towny. Day 3 MYLO he got very aggressive about pushing various people and wrote up a ton of smart sounding stuff about association speculation (that made it much easier to make even previous town reads plausible mislynches), and chainsaws quite a bit. He constantly posts "paranoid" thoughts that sow seeds of doubt or shade without any sort of hard commitment, which may not be alignment indicative but certainly works in scum!relephant's favor if so.

Totally brilliant Day 3 that nearly got the tracker killed even when he outright crumbed his track target by spelling it out in this post.

Spoiler: Irrelephant Posts In This Game

Points against Irrelephant, either because they are independently suspicious or similar to tactics mentioned above:

• super early hypothetical scum pools (111)
  
• questioning if a player's post arc was genuine (205, 421) as a reason for suspicion that's deceptive because he's literally saying someone is scummy for sounding town but only qualified as far as "feels too good to be true"
  
• shades another strong/active player for a less than stellar reason (412)
  
• backs off on Keyser as soon as he's called out for a weak case in order to shade another one of the active/threatening players (423)
  
• withdraws town reads on players in the same breath as making them and also retcons a post as "for the SPICE" (473)
  
• non-commital shading "I don't actually know if that's because she's scum" while saying that he made a case on her already even though half of the case was about not having enough content which was debunked shortly afterwards (468)
  
• more "feels off" type shade (488)
  
• 494 and 503 read like joking-not-joking about buddying/pocketing/blocking
  
• I feel bad vibes about the defensive posting like 619 628 650. He acknowledges that those posts were bad, but continuously gets defensive when it is brought up as a data point against him. It's like admitting to a murder but protesting that every time someone brings up "irrelephant is bad because he murdered that dude" with "UGH WE'RE JUST GOING IN CIRCLES." I mean it's not like the situation has been rectified, and continued posts are just desperately trying to claw back into our good graces?
  
• In the same vein, 697 HA YOU SAID I'M GOOD AT SCUM SO WHY WOULD MY SCUMMY POSTING BE SCUMMY? is a nervous defensive response. Also more "fake" feels accusations. I *did* find the sloppy posts strange, but still felt that the things that made me uncomfortable outweighed that hesitation.
  
• Town/scumslip stuff is top of Scumrrelephant's playbook IMO (I mean, I helped teach some of it) so 707 is totally lacking value in my eyes. I also think that sloppy play does NOT equate lack of concern for how he comes across. I think it's quite the opposite: that because he's under pressure instead of universally town read this time, he's fumbling due to trying to stay on people's good sides and not get caught out. Wait was 729 serious because why would you be so bothered by pressure if you're innocent ((this bit is joking and I'm aware I sound like WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HIM)
  
• After 516 and 697 I'm disappointed that all we got was 752 and 758 saying he doesn't actually really know

Spoiler: Conclusions:

A lot of it is circumstantial, like what feels like an unsubstantiated town read on momrangal, while continuously trying to push poorly justified shade on several of our most active players (skitter, keyser, bernie, and I) even when he's made several "oh this thing X did was pretty towny" concessions about all 4 of us. There are strategies he frequently employed to keep options open (shade qualified with "paranoia," early <scum is in this large group of people> posts, and associations hunting) but those could just be general Irrelephant posting style so I don't put as much faith in that. The stuff that most pinged me was usage of things he explicitly plotted in our scum thread about (pocketing people, trying to get in an early town block, actively deciding which viable mislynch would be the most advantageous and pursuing it, or taking advantage of existing suspicion the way Stun accused Skitter of in 284.

When I lavish praise, I mean that Irrelephant's play is unbelievably prepared (reading many games and the wiki as preparation and strategizing), intelligent, methodical, and planned out 11 chess moves ahead (see scum thread). He's extremely capable of tryhard posting (see day 3 posts in newbie 1863), and super nice and polite which tugs at our heartstrings. Those are things we usually town read people for easily, and here is not one of those times we can do so. I initially was just planning to warn everyone not to trust him because he truly is a brilliant player, but the more notes I wrote the more I realized I actively felt scum vibes.

I think irrelephant's weakness is the eagerness to please and desire to do well, so being FOSed really, really rattles him and decreases his ability to make those confident posts which he was able to comfortably do from a position of most town read player in the game, who probably held 1/2 the authority of everyone alive.

[Nauci]

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I also disagree and alot of her posts have alot of words and doesn't seem to really do anything or take much of a stance even when she kinda does. Though it is very stream of consciousness so

Holy mother of god that was ~1600 words what the hell am I even doing with my life

I was going to follow up w/ a write up on The Worst and then ISO analysis on momrangal/invis but it's almost 2 AM and I forgot to eat dinner so in the words of SimplyNailogical:

I'll see y'all later bai!

[Nauci]

Oops accidental quote

[Nauci]

OH MY GOD I JUST LOST A 1200 WORD DRAFT BECAUSE I ACCIDENTALLY REFRESHED THE WRONG PAGE I HATE MY LIFE RIGHT NOW

[Nauci]

Okay take 2 I guess

This here save draft button is gonna get a lot of mashing from now on

Nauci, your case boils down to, "Irrelephant did X as scum, he's doing X here, therefore he's scum." It's not a very strong argument.

This comment is extremely unfair and dangerously dismissive of my write up (which provides meta, context, and evaluations in addition to any active scum-casing).

I specifically admitted that several of the gut IRRELEPHANT FEELS SO SCUMMY feelings were because he was doing a lot of the same things from that game in this game, but that they could well just be regular irrelephant posting so I shouldn't put much weight in them.

It would be foolish to discount the stuff he explicitly and excruciatingly plotted out in our scum thread, however (town blocks, pocketing, townslips, strategic shading, etc.).

My post was 50% to warn everyone that you should NOT give Irrelephant easy tone/tells/effort based town reads, because he's a brilliant player who is extremely capable of sounding super towny in a generic sense.

I think it's crucial to read Irrelephant based on the big picture: who is he setting up, could this be advantageous to his 11-steps-ahead plan, are the hypothetical posts real wavering or leaving-options-open posts, etc. I think that pushing him hard means we get posts like 897 with perspectives and details that we can evaluate much more easily for scum POV/motivation/etc. It should be *hard* to put up a detailed case for a mislynch, and I intend to make it so.

Nauci, do you think Irrelephant makes this post -

do you often ignore questions? It's very hard getting you to answer things directed straight at you)

I will vouch for the fact that this is true of town Shoshin, and is part of why I'm having an easier time townreading her than most players

- as scum? Why not let Skitter's paranoia fester?

Once again: Irrelephant is extremely capable of any individual town sounding post (see the "good point" posts that I should not have given credit for; reasons to discount are in my write up).

But in addition, it's silly to question why he would defend you (someone we're saying he's trying to pocket) from skitter (someone I've thought he's trying to shade). That's in line with scumrelephant win-con.

I think this is a very bad faith post. I remember several people commenting on the worst's posting, I specifically wrote about him and my experiences/read of his meta (I don't think I even commented on his predecessor), and BS wrote a whole meta schpiel about his play. I can't tell if you're selectively reading or deliberately misrepping.

i'm toying with the idea that she may be wk'ing a mislynch

i'm pretty confident that they aren't svs tho

Who is the "they" here? Is "she" referring to the momrangal post I mentioned, or about me?

896 I love games where half of the players are active and suss each other in circles while the other half approach non-existence. Yay!

897

@Irrelephant:

I think that as any alignment, you should veer off from these syntactical lines of thinking. Phrasing/wording/slang/idioms/vocabulary is usually mostly reflective of someone's culture/education/personality. If you know that "this works well" means "corroborates the theory," you should analyze the thought behind it OR explain in detail why phrasing X would mean thought process Y vs "I personally would have used Y instead of X here." It would either improve your scum hunting as town, or reduce your empty shading opportunities as scum.

The "I want to watch them fight" comment seems like the same sentiment as your "hopefully it at least makes other players' ability to read us easier" from 707. I've always thought 1v1s were good for sorting those involved, as a 3rd party observer or participant.

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement," and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

I think that I have done my best to be extremely pro-town thus far, but "doesn't suck up to Irrelephant" shouldn't be a point in my favor. If I were scum I'd be as afraid of townrelephant as townmathdino, and try to hide because after we pocketed flicker/teacher you couldn't possibly trust anyone buttering you up.

(Oddly enough I also confuse stun and skitter posts in my memory because they have similar tones)

Damn I'm only at like 850 words and I have no idea what thoughts were in the missing parts. Fffffuuuuu

[Nauci]

Welcome, Gustavo!

Damn those dice for filling one of the more sorted slots (IMO) >:C

I did "lurk" early game. We basically started on the weekend that I power cleaned my boyfriend's formerly-gross-af apartment for like 11 hours on Saturday and I could barely move on Sunday. My right hand is still busted as a result. :/ I am making an effort to be as tryhard as possible before my programming bootcamp starts on July 2 and I won't have the time or energy to do any meta diving or long write ps w/o sacrificing my sanity.

I don't want to self meta any more but the worst has seen town me in a game where he was scum (but I don't trust what he says because he's top of my naughty list here), and Math was in the same game. Math also skimmed a couple of my games and read Team Mafia Tiebreaker.

Was anyone else here in team mafia? Because theoretically you have also seen my town performance there if you participated in the tiebreaker challenge.

TW isn't being forthcoming on his read of me but also not on just about anything else in this game. I give him until EOD tomorrow for the effort he keeps promising, but around these parts I expect presidential candidates to actually deliver on their promises!

[Nauci]

Keyser no offence bro but you're becoming an active annoyance to play with. I'll catch up when I catch up and respond to your posts when I can. Are you actually just like lockscumreading me or is there some personal reason you continually prod and throw shade at my slot?

Dead set I've solemnly sworn under the Order of the Brass Herald not to replace out of games ever but I do not blame people for being like "lol fuck these pages" at this point.

I'm struggling to form townreads without sheeping at this point which is killing motivation further. Sorry to ruin your day but I'm town and I'm not getting mislynched today. Stop positioning me for a mislynch and move on to something else.

Look, if you aren't going to explain what you think I'm like as town, then don't answer. If you're going to answer later, then say/do that.

But this cheeky circular posting is dumb and I'm posting because I do not want you to feel like we're satisfied with your non-answers.

[Nauci]

Nauci, I agree with you that Irrelephant might be scum. But that applies to everyone in the game. Can you point me to the specific posts that make it more likely that Irrelephant's scum rather than town?

Spoiler: VERY MASSIVE WALL POST

591I disagree wrt irrelephant. The bizarre push on Skitter despite being one of the most active posters, and possibly nervous turn off from Keyser, feels bad to me.

[*]

Irrelephant11

• I'd like to TR Irrelephant, but thus far I am not seeing the strong performance I expected. Even while scum, Irrelephant put up a good scum hunting game in 1863. More defensive posts and less active hunting, IMO.
  
• As previously mentioned, Irrelephant avoided attacking me even when I was putting up a poor performance.
  Feels too favorable to lurkers/momrangal without great justification, while keeping up cases on some of the most active/vocal/potentially great scumhunting players in the game (BS, Keyser, Skitter) that

  don't

  feel forced instead of robust, and potentially pocketing Shosh (which was rather successful in our game on a few people) [there was a typo "don't" there from laptop cursor skipping around]
  
  
• Acknowledging the "bad" vote on Skitter doesn't really address it at all? Admitting it's bad just means that we're all in agreement it was bizarre.
  
  
• Excited for this 516 promise
  
• I don't want to scumread Irrelephant because it'd be awesome if we were town together, and I tried to not read with too much bias from my obvious paranoia of his brilliant scum play, but I came away from the catch up with less good feelings than I had hoped. I could see plausible associations w/ Mom or Shosh or TW (or even Math), while NOT w/ Bernie/Skitter/me/Keyser.

I find it hard to believe that Nauci "wants to townread" Irrelephant yet doesn't. She observes differences between his play here and his play as scum, she says his play as scum is strong and his play here weak, but she scumread him for that? He's been pretty careless this game and a lot less calculated with his posting than he was as scum, so why would someone who wants to townread him instead scumread him? I get the feeling that Nauci's faking the scumread and she keeps saying that she wants to townread (i.e. the opposite of what she's actually doing) to hide her actual intent (i.e. faking a scumread).

Only 5 min so quick response

I want to TR Irrelephant because he is my friend but he put up a great performance as scum so my desire to TR is totally overwhelmed by my paranoia, if that makes sense? The mind is willing, but the trust is spongy and bruised, you know?

I think it's a really good point about the purported sloppiness, and it does give me pause. But my read was *despite* it:

I feel like there is a pattern of trying to delegitimize stronger players and avoid attacking certain ones that speaks to protecting teammates and leaving things open to scum read people, and that the sloppiness is a result of disingenuous reasoning to keep those options open.

I think that it's very good to get explanation and opinion posts from Irrelephant and not just these question and stir the pot posts that made him sound so town, because it wasn't until opinions had to be tossed around explicitly that he was alignment readable in our game. I'll link some examples of what I mean later from our game and our shamefully manipulative scum thread.

Tl;Dr Irrelephant is absolutely brilliant and thinks 11 steps ahead of the game and can fake the best of town effort posts, so don't bank on that.

He has employed several scum ploys we discussed in our scum pt so I get very bad vibes.

His weakness is being rattled under pressure/accusations that hamper his ability to fake aforementioned tryhard posts AND having the "this feels fake" posts challenged for more detail.

I take back the credit I gave earlier for those "good point" posts because of stuff like this.

Points against Irrelephant, either because they are independently suspicious or similar to tactics mentioned above:

• super early hypothetical scum pools (111)
  
• questioning if a player's post arc was genuine (205, 421) as a reason for suspicion that's deceptive because he's literally saying someone is scummy for sounding town but only qualified as far as "feels too good to be true"
  
  
• shades another strong/active player for a less than stellar reason (412)
  
  
• backs off on Keyser as soon as he's called out for a weak case in order to shade another one of the active/threatening players (423)
  
  
• withdraws town reads on players in the same breath as making them and also retcons a post as "for the SPICE" (473)
  
  
• non-commital shading "I don't actually know if that's because she's scum" while saying that he made a case on her already even though half of the case was about not having enough content which was debunked shortly afterwards (468)
  
  
• more "feels off" type shade (488)
  
• 494 and 503 read like joking-not-joking about buddying/pocketing/blocking
  
• I feel bad vibes about the defensive posting like 619 628 650. He acknowledges that those posts were bad, but continuously gets defensive when it is brought up as a data point against him. It's like admitting to a murder but protesting that every time someone brings up "irrelephant is bad because he murdered that dude" with "UGH WE'RE JUST GOING IN CIRCLES." I mean it's not like the situation has been rectified, and continued posts are just desperately trying to claw back into our good graces?
  
  
• In the same vein, 697 HA YOU SAID I'M GOOD AT SCUM SO WHY WOULD MY SCUMMY POSTING BE SCUMMY? is a nervous defensive response. Also more "fake" feels accusations.
  I *did* find the sloppy posts strange, but still felt that the things that made me uncomfortable outweighed that hesitation.
  
• Town/scumslip stuff is top of Scumrrelephant's playbook IMO (I mean, I helped teach some of it) so 707 is totally lacking value in my eyes.
  I also think that sloppy play does NOT equate lack of concern for how he comes across. I think it's quite the opposite: that because he's under pressure instead of universally town read this time, he's fumbling due to trying to stay on people's good sides and not get caught out.
  Wait was 729 serious because why would you be so bothered by pressure if you're innocent ((this bit is joking and I'm aware I sound like WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HIM)
  
• After 516 and 697 I'm disappointed that all we got was 752 and 758 saying he doesn't actually really know

Conclusions:

A lot of it is circumstantial, like what feels like an unsubstantiated town read on momrangal, while continuously trying to push poorly justified shade on several of our most active players (skitter, keyser, bernie, and I) even when he's made several "oh this thing X did was pretty towny" concessions about all 4 of us.

There are strategies he frequently employed to keep options open (shade qualified with "paranoia," early <scum is in this large group of people> posts, and associations hunting) but those could just be general Irrelephant posting style so I don't put as much faith in that.

The stuff that most pinged me was usage of things he explicitly plotted in our scum thread about (pocketing people, trying to get in an early town block, actively deciding which viable mislynch would be the most advantageous and pursuing it, or taking advantage of existing suspicion the way Stun accused Skitter of in 284.

But in addition, it's silly to question why

he would defend you (someone we're saying he's trying to pocket) from skitter (someone I've thought he's trying to shade). That's in line with scumrelephant win-con.

897

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement,"

and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

Now can you stop grilling me about Irrelephant so I can take a look at everyone else?

[Nauci]

As a matter of theory, I think town tend to talk about "phrasing" more than scum (points in Irrelephant's favor) and I strongly disagree Nauci's "theory" 'that "phrasing" doesn't matter (it's actually provable that people unconsciously use different "phrasing" for the same ideas when you change their perspective (i.e. whether they're informed or uinformed about what they're saying)).

I am against "why did he say X instead of Y? That's weird" postulating. I am against "this person reads as scummy to me because I struggle to read his/her syntax." I am for "I think the words X and Y were used because of scum POV/motivations" analysis.

I think that players of all alignments make "bad vibes" posts all the time, myself included, and none of us should ever get away with ending it there.

Elaborating is how town get other town on board, or how scum fall apart on faking town points of view.

[Nauci]

Nauci, that isn't helpful. I've already read those posts and they don't contain an answer to my question. I'd like you to tell me the specific posts that make Irrelephant more likely to be scum. You can list them out. And then tell me exactly what about those posts increases the probability that he's scum in this game without reference to his previous game as scum.

And you're welcome to look at others, but I'm working on figuring out Irrelephant right now and I'd like your help to do so.

• super early hypothetical scum pools
  (111)
  
  
• questioning if a player's post arc was genuine
  (205, 421)
  as a reason for suspicion that's deceptive because he's literally saying someone is scummy for sounding town but only qualified as far as "feels too good to be true"
  
• shades another strong/active player for a less than stellar reason
  (412)
  
  
• backs off on Keyser as soon as he's called out for a weak case in order to shade another one of the active/threatening players
  (423)
  
  
• withdraws town reads on players in the same breath as making them and also retcons a post as "for the SPICE"
  (473)
  
  
• non-commital shading "I don't actually know if that's because she's scum" while saying that he made a case on her already even though half of the case was about not having enough content which was debunked shortly afterwards
  (468)
  
  
• more "feels off" type shade
  (488)
  
  
• 494 and 503
  read like joking-not-joking about buddying/pocketing/blocking
  
• I feel bad vibes about the defensive posting like
  619 628 650.
  He acknowledges that those posts were bad, but continuously gets defensive when it is brought up as a data point against him. It's like admitting to a murder but protesting that every time someone brings up "irrelephant is bad because he murdered that dude" with "UGH WE'RE JUST GOING IN CIRCLES." I mean it's not like the situation has been rectified, and continued posts are just desperately trying to claw back into our good graces?
  
• In the same vein,
  697
  HA YOU SAID I'M GOOD AT SCUM SO WHY WOULD MY SCUMMY POSTING BE SCUMMY? is a nervous defensive response. Also more "fake" feels accusations. I *did* find the sloppy posts strange, but still felt that the things that made me uncomfortable outweighed that hesitation.
  
• Town/scumslip stuff is top of Scumrrelephant's playbook IMO (I mean, I helped teach some of it) so 707 is totally lacking value in my eyes. I also think that sloppy play does NOT equate lack of concern for how he comes across. I think it's quite the opposite: that because he's under pressure instead of universally town read this time, he's fumbling due to trying to stay on people's good sides and not get caught out. Wait was 729 serious because why would you be so bothered by pressure if you're innocent ((this bit is joking and I'm aware I sound like WE HAVE FOUND A WITCH, MAY WE BURN HIM)
  
• After 516 and 697 I'm disappointed that all we got was 752 and 758 saying he doesn't actually really know

897

The "this is an attempt to scum read me later" comments ping me BADLY. Those aren't reactions I ever would have had to those comments (if they were about me instead) unless I was scum with a "oh god they're onto me" kick. One post literally says he didn't even think about scumrelephant as a possibility and it was a blind spot, so I can only see fear/misdirection motivating "this reads as excitement,"

and I really don't draw a line from "you just know Nauci well" to "attempt to scumread [irrelephant] if nauci flips town"?

You are welcome to disagree with my posts, but it is completely infuriating for you to imply I haven't already exhaustively pointed to over 15 posts that pinged me and written out why, even within the unnecessary constraint of not using meta.

[Nauci]

Nauci how do you rate your reads on powerful playstyles generally? do you tunnel as town?

I don't tunnel as town.

I spend a lot of time and effort on every single case, and I work really hard to be aware of my biases. I don't write up a lot on everyone because some players don't have a lot of material to work on, but when there is, it looks like I'm tunneling because of the amount of time I've spent here.

I have only had time to really analyze irrelephant and you, but if I wasn't answering shosin I'd be rereading momrangal and gamma right now.

I'm trying to do less wall posting because it understandably exhausts everyone as much to read as it was for me to type.

[Nauci]

Woohoo! Welcome Not_Mafia!

I don't have much direct experience w/ NM or Gustavo but I've skimmed their games because I was skimming the worst/math/other games so it's nice to see players I have soooome amount of meta familiarity with

Much hype

P.S. Math i miss u booboo come bak 2 us

[Nauci]

Out for the night doing a favor for a friend

I swear I will get to the others this week

[Nauci]

I'm vvv drunk right now (my Twitch emote is AsianGlow for a reason!) so this is the perfect time for some top of my head responses and comments, because I just went on a 40 minute rant about the power to waste ratio of nuclear energy

-Shoshin I've said several times that Irrelephant making lots of posts shading players had extremely sparse or poor or forced explanations (not liking BS's writing style, Skitter supposedly not contributing enough) and later also poor retcon explanations.
-I also found his reaction to Keyser plausible as nervous scum and implausible as town
-it's outright deceptive at this point to say I've only made a "don't rule out as potential scum" case

-i actually haven't been paying attention to votes on me (and generally don't)
-i didn't realize until this afternoon that Shoshin has had her vote on me since #191; I frequently park my vote until I get something I'm actually actively voting on so I don't react negatively to this; I am empathetic to wanting to pressure and sort me especially because I was afk all weekend. Sadly d1 votes on me factor almost nothing into my play but I'd like to think that I've stepped it up plenty without regards to that pressure
-all that grilling to me about Irrelephant feels more towny now that I know she was scum reading me; previously I worried more that it was a bizarrely aggressive defense of Irrelephant11. I was beginning to waver on my town read of Shoshin but I think it's still a mild green

-Gustavo there are several women in this game and I'd really appreciate if you used the pronouns next to our avatars. Also, as far as day 1 goes this game was much more telling than most after page 5 so it's worth skimming the entirety of

-i don't think it's scummy to point out the Shoshin vote as something to take note of but I disagree it's enough for a scum read

-going to hold off on the invis analysis because almost all of his posts were "catching up now" or "nap time" crap so I might as well wait for NM to post

-I've been ignoring vote counts for too long and should think about it

[Nauci]

-the worst wagon was because A: Gemini's replace out was suspicious, B: the worst has made lots of fluff posts and refused to effort post or explain much reasoning yet

-invis votes were for the apathy

My wagon:

-math voted me a while back for not having been as town as he thinks I could have been but that was like 20 pages and 6 wall posts ago
-irrelephant voted me because of some combination of bias from me voting and attacking him and feeling my posts were "fake"
-shoshin voted me because... ? I actually am not sure about this one but it was 20+ pages ago
-the worst said some stuff about how I wasn't as engaged as he has seen town me be, but this was also many pages back
-i can't remember when or why momrangal did tbh

-skitter I am drunk dumb rn but can you explain what you mean by white knighting a tw lynch? Does that mean being against said lynch?

-ty for the Shoshin game threads I will read those during my hangover

-so far almost all of the wagons have been largely "player x hasn't been as town as I know player x can be" based, except for my wall post on Irrelephant, I think. Let's try to do more scum strategy/pov catching?

I hope to come back to new math/Bernie/nm posts goodnight y'all

[Nauci]

I never townread Stun the same way others have but I'm unsure what to think about Gus. I'm thinking a couple things.

One, he just played as scum in Tropical and his approach in that game was to jump onto opportunistic wagons but rarely start them. His play here is different on that score. But when you compare this to his play as town in Scientific, it looks nothing like it. He never had much confidence in his reads there, asked for input from others, and didn't push anything aggressively like this.

Two, his scumhunting approach here seems to be looking for the same sort of behavior that he exhibited as scum (i.e. looking for opportunistic behaviors) and that's sort of townie on his part. , so he's looking at who jumped onto the Nauci wagon (e.g. me, Mom, etc.). The approach makes sense given the way he played as scum, but it also assumes that Nauci is town and that bugs me.

I don't think that being suspicious of unjustified (or rather, unexplained) votes requires an assumption of me being town

At first I thought it was an interesting route to pressure but now I'm really disappointed with the weird anti-town declaration of tunneling and not listening to clarifications. Can't tell if it's alignment indicative.

[Nauci]

I voted nauci for a # of reasons, none of which are stated and one of said reasons are I'm itching for EoD and top two TRs are/were strongly advocating it

Wait am I reading this correctly

Because this looked like a super blatant admission of opportunistic wagon voting to push any (mis)lynch?

[Nauci]

As far as Gustavo goes, I'm kinda confused. I absolutely see him believing in what he's saying but I don't think that should exclude him from scum. As far as my own play goes, I push logic and cases that I personally believe myself to be pushing if I was town, and because of that, there's a level of authenticity to pushes. I don't think it unreasonable to see others do it.

That in mind, pushing shoshin here is very high risk high reward because it would be clear, if he is scum here, that Shoshin is the town leader here and shutting her down would eliminate town cohesion here in this game, which should be one of scums goals

I don't remember this town coming even close to having a leader

Wat

[Nauci]

Okay so

I don't know how I feel about Gus but he did ruffle enough feathers that I now have better reads on people.

Shoshin goes from null-town to town-lean (now that I realize she was casing me more than defending Irrelephant, I'm feeling really good about her)
Irrelephant11 goes from scummy to null
Momrangal goes from null to scummy

And all of the lurkers are on the naughty list, including math

Skitter the wk is an interesting theory; do you believe the premise for it, that tw is town?

Strangely enough the duckster has somehow earned a null from me for now

There are way too many places I want to vote right now but I'll start with VOTE: momrangal

[Nauci]

I don't remember this town coming even close to having a leader

Wat

I'd say I've been one of the leaders in this game even if you haven't felt that way. Leadership isn't exclusive to one player and this town has a number of players who play as leaders - and just so you know, part of leading is knowing when to let others lead so if you're just looking for someone that others are sheeping that's not really what Mom was talking about.

You can try a leadership style all you want and keep asking people to sheep you

But besides Irrelephant I don't think anyone has followed your leads so I don't consider you a leader at all. If your argument is that there have been several, then that's absurd because in a 13 player game where only half are posting if 3+ people are leader then no one is...

Leaders are like when Math hammered on the worst so much and for so long that half the town fell in line and strung up scum

[Nauci]

like half of your case was based on meta and whether or not she gives reasons for votes

No my case has absolutely nothing to do with meta. The point of the meta dive was to prove she lied. The lying, not cooperating, refusing to provide a reason for her vote, and misrepping other players while accusing me of it are basically why I’m scum reading.

If town can you please try better at reading comprehension? It makes the game so much easier if you actually know what you’re talking about before speaking.

Thank you

Says the dude who keeps posting without having read most of the game?

[Nauci]

Okay so

I don't know how I feel about Gus but he did ruffle enough feathers that I now have better reads on people.

Shoshin goes from null-town to town-lean (now that I realize she was casing me more than defending Irrelephant, I'm feeling really good about her)
Irrelephant11 goes from scummy to null
Momrangal goes from null to scummy

And all of the lurkers are on the naughty list, including math

Skitter the wk is an interesting theory; do you believe the premise for it, that tw is town?

Strangely enough the duckster has somehow earned a null from me for now

There are way too many places I want to vote right now but I'll start with VOTE: momrangal

Couple of questions:
Why are you categorizing Math as a lurker? For the most part he's been active even though he missed his specified day of contribution.
Can you describe how exactly Gustavo helped your reads?
Why pick momrangal out of those you wanted to vote?

I had planned to elaborate on this when I got home but that's not happening until like 11 pm so I'll do some messy mobile zuihitsu

-the only reason I could see for scumrelephant to defend the towniness of both Shoshin and Gustavo is to keep Gus as a mislynch for later while pocketing Shosh, but that seemed way too far fetched. There are a half dozen good potential mislynch targets for down the road when half the game isn't close to town read. Scumrelephant would have benefited from letting one set the other up as scum to remove one of the most townread slots either way, but made cases for why neither of them might be scummy. The post digging up Shosh votes and refuting Gus without necessarily scum casing him was a point for townrelephant and I don't think there's a huge chance it was a hyper elaborate ploy, and even if it was, I don't mind scumrelephant bring tryhard pro-town. But the responses about Keyser still have me too wary to move to anything close to a town read.

-I think the reactions from Shoshin have been pretty genuine minus maybe the first few. She wouldn't stage this many fights or pick this many fights as scum, would she?

-I hadn't seen a math post in like a day and he hadn't post enough to reach even 15% if the potential we all know Math has. I think I can read active math but I sure as hell can't read inactive math

-I voted momrangal over you/others because out of everyone who has made posts that pinged me or gives me bad vibes, it seemed good to focus one who's actually participating in the thread and who I can easily see associations for; you're my other top pick for that

[Nauci]

Nauci, there's different ways of leading a town. I can tell that your understanding of the word "leader" is different from mine or Mom's.

I'd like to hear your definition

I'd even more like to hear Momrangal's definition before you post yours

I can't tell if invis or nm will be more frustrating to try to read lol

TW: you've played with Gus, right? What's your opinion of this stubbornness?

[Nauci]

I don’t really wish dragging the shoshin conversation on any longer. Either you side with me or side with her. Telling me I’m wrong isn’t going to change my mind because clearly I don’t agree with that. If you want to say it isn’t AI, that’s great you don’t think so but from what I’ve seen of her play, all of her play, it’s AI for me. You are entitled to your opinion, I’m entitled to mine. Nobody is really pointing to anything protown from her which also supports my read. Now don’t go run off and do that either because I’ve made my mind up.

If you want this game to turn into a shit show, I assure you that it will turn into one if you continue trying to change my mind. My mind isn’t open to be changed on this topic. Not day 1 anyway.

Irrespective of shosh, I'm offended that you don't count the things multiple people have said were pro town about her. I had post a couple of times that her pressure on me was pro town.

I think Mom's town, Nauci.

I haven't heard enough posts or thoughts from the slot to think so and would appreciate if you didn't defend her because I want her to engage instead

I'm happy if you want to help me clarify anything I've clearly misunderstood from her but for now I need to see more of her thoughts and motivations instead of yours

[Nauci]

"the responses about Keyser still have me too wary to move to anything close to a town read." what does this mean Nauci?

@Not_Mafia I asked you for some specific reads recently - find it in my ISO?

I'm somewhat townreading Gamma at this stage fwiw

I was explaining why I moved you from scummy to null instead of towny based on what seemed like a town series of interactions

[Nauci]

@Nauci I never asked about scum!irrelephant?
And how am I your other top pick based on that logic?

You asked me how the Gustavo interactions helped my reads, so I explained the two reads that I now have more data points for because of his interactions

You are the other poster who is currently active and needs a lot more engagement to swing my scum vibe, versus nsg/tw/etc.

I have no idea how to even get nm to converse so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nauci]

Right I know I'm asking what "responses about Keyser"? My scumcase of him?

The parts that I said pinged me really badly as reactions from "oh god she knows I'm scum" POV to Keyser posts; I don't feel like your subsequent follow up was satisfactory so it's still a big point against you

@Nauci

For me, leading is about figuring out what we need to do to win as a team and doing my best to get everyone moving in that direction. It's not about saying, "hey let's lynch this person," it's about getting the right people to come together to discuss things in a way that makes it very difficult for scum to avoid getting caught and then from that point working together to figure out who the scum are. It's also about knowing when to follow others and when to push things yourself.

In terms of my play, I'd say from the start I got things moving out of RVS and have been pretty strongly trying to work with everyone to develop some sort of consensus on who the townies/scum are, more so than anyone else in this game.

Ffffuuu I wanted mom's answer first

Because in the context of what she said to Gus, I needed to know what she meant very importantly to sort her without being able to reference your answer

[Nauci]

That's -2 for gamma, btw

[Nauci]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

I just really wish you would stop interfering with my ability to question and pressure people. It doesn't make any sense. I don't gather the same data or interpret it using the same methods as you do, and don't enjoy the condescension. It's anti-town to keep discouraging me by saying turning over these rocks is useless.

I dont think that's a clearing vote actually.

Maybe I'll read the past three pages at some point.

So many options of who to vote and he chooses Gamma? I dunno. If Gamma's town, it's pretty meaningless, but if he's scum, it's a pretty strong indication that NM's town. If he were scum, he could have hung around without placing a vote. He could have waited to quickhammer Gamma and try to fake a town-tell. But putting him at L-2 where he's unlikely to get much town cred is precisely the point where scum NM doesn't vote for scum.

I think it's really anti town to provide answers and excuses for people who hadn't explained themselves. It's difficult to sound genuine as scum so any chance we have to make them say something that shows their thought processes, it helps town sort them. Covering for people like this is super anti-town, and is why I also had an issue w/ your criticisms of my Irrelephant write up. It feels like you scumread people without explaining it much, but then you tear down a lot of other people's pressure or cases.

NM has clearly expressed that he has no interest in reading most of the game or contributing real content. Someone also mentioned he plays anti-town frequently and quick hammers.

I don't see how this empty vote immediately after someone else's vote gets him credit when there's every possibility it was a "fuckit I'll just sheep this momentum with a pressure vote" or even lazier potential scum motivation. There's absolutely no evidence it was any more complicated or telling.

Hey!!!

Welcome!

[Nauci]

@Irrelephant: I did like your response about wording though.

I appreciate the explanation/analysis on the specific wording and what it could mean; I feel like previously your word choice posts were basically about writing style and not specific-word-linked-intent, which is just a matter of difference IMO.

[Nauci]

@replacements: this game has had a lot of meaty posting starting as early as page 5 and I honestly recommend skimming everything. There are wall posts from people like irrelephant, skitter, myself, etc. where we respond to lots of little details which can be skipped, but read over any of the read list posts and votes that have happened thus far.

[Nauci]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

It's Mafia theory. It's NAI. it's pretty naive to think that I won't have an answer as scum because as scum i need find town leaders. To find them, I need to know what I am looking for.

Here's what makes shos a town leader though.

She's driving the discussion of the game. Every post she makes, more or less forces people to get engaged in the game. Her questions and points are made so that everyone needs to make an opinion.


In this game, no one is allowed to get away with simple reads. She is attempting to discuss with

everyone

. Forcing all of them to think critically and in doing that, she is forcing town to be their best version of themselves and forcing scum into the difficult situation of somehow making genuine thought processes. That is not an environment scum thrive in, no matter how well seasoned their game is.

It's also the fact that she's leading in this way is why she's town.

We are, after all, a democracy

I didn't at all imply that you wouldn't have an answer as scum. But it was a good opportunity to extract a very detailed thought process about a major aspect of the game which we hadn't seen much from you.

I'll agree that shoshin has been great as an agitator driving the momentum of the game but leader to me means having followers, but this disagreement/symantics discussion is irrelevant versus hearing the thought process behind why A: shoshin is "the" town leader (versus "a town leader"), and B: why that specifically should mean NOT "shutting her down." Did you mean you didn't want to lynch her? Or that you didn't want her antagonized and discouraged from posting? At the time, it sounded like you were saying a lot of people were following/sheeping her and it would destroy the town to think otherwise, which I strongly disagreed with.

[Nauci]

Nauci, I'm guessing you don't have experience with NM but trust me when I say that pressuring him for more content is an exercise in futility. I understand that you don't want me answering for others but that's not what I'm doing; what I did is offer a read on NM based on the available information and then briefly discuss that read with Skitter.

Based on the NM games I had seen, I had assumed as much.

But I think it's bad to give him credit for an empty vote on the basis that he can't contribute any himself. I understand it was your read on him but skitter and I seem to disagree with you that there was any basis to form such a read on his motivations.

But mostly, I hate this "that won't give you any information anyway" discouragement from us TRYING to ask questions.

[Nauci]

@Nauci I never asked about scum!irrelephant?
And how am I your other top pick based on that logic?

You asked me how the Gustavo interactions helped my reads, so I explained the two reads that I now have more data points for because of his interactions

You are the other poster who is currently active and needs a lot more engagement to swing my scum vibe, versus nsg/tw/etc.

I have no idea how to even get nm to converse so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

I understand why you read my words in that manner, but I'd like to clarify that "more engagement" meant literally just more words/posts. I haven't seen enough posts to really get a feel on what your thought processes or emotions or whatever else are like, and I generally read people by what I feel like their point of view/thought processes may have been. I have seen a bit that could be scummy, and I haven't seen enough that feels very town to me to change that evaluation much. I just need more content from you, regardless of what you comment on or who interacts with you.

Do you *need* someone to prod you in order to post? Why not just comment on the relatively dramatic events thus far? It's not like our arguments are a VIP only party and you're not invited.

VOTE: gamma

The fact he’s not voted all game and his first vote is on me and his reason basically implies he knows I’m town is a red flag for me

I can’t be scum who doesn’t give a shit if I’m wrong. I’m fairly obviously town. He’s not scum hunting imo.

How can't you be that? Despite half or more of the game telling you you're wrong you're still bullrushing the "shoshin is scum for lying" idea. As I see it you will never consider a counterargument because it doesn't fit your scum agenda.

Being wrong implies I don’t know sho’s alignment. So I can’t be wrong and scum.

I can be scum pushing a mislynch but you didn’t say that. I could easily call that a scum slip on your part.

Me as scum would be stupid to push somebody everyone is town reading because of the negative attention I’d receive, and look. I’m receiving negative attention.

I don't have an alignment read to this statement but I just wanted to say that lying and being wrong look exactly the same to us, so it's useless to say "if you think I'm wrong then you don't think I'm scum" because scum would be purposely wrong and town would be unintentionally wrong.

Shoshin is still a woman, btw

It's just a weird question coming from Keyser. He doesn't ask "Do you replicate this way of getting out of RVS as scum?" he specifically asks "Do you replicate this strategy as scum and actually lynch your own partners?"

I can't think of myself ever asking that as town at that point

Whereas scum afraid of being caught having "taken the bait" (something he gets weirdly focused on for long after everyone else has stopped talking about it) might lampshade the idea that if Shoshin had successfully caught scum that could somehow be scum-indicative for her, which doesn't make sense?

So I'm really not understanding your complaint here? It seemed like a super standard "do you do X when you are scum?" meta question? I mean it's asking someone to self meta so efficacy is questionable but it's like how I keep saying you shouldn't be town read because X and you were perfectly capable of doing X as scum, so knowing whether someone does X as scum is important.

I had personally read "caught the bait" as in "scum like to make a lot of noise over very little so they don't have to make noise over the big things and still look like they're making noise." I read "bait" as "opportunity for faking effort" and that shosh's posts about math were the kind of low hanging fruit scum would love to attack.

It's just a weird question coming from Keyser. He doesn't ask "Do you replicate this way of getting out of RVS as scum?" he specifically asks "Do you replicate this strategy as scum and actually lynch your own partners?"

I can't think of myself ever asking that as town at that point

Whereas scum afraid of being caught having "taken the bait" (something he gets weirdly focused on for long after everyone else has stopped talking about it) might lampshade the idea that if Shoshin had successfully caught scum that could somehow be scum-indicative for her, which doesn't make sense?

I'll let Nauci attempt to explain my play again, and how you've miss-read it.

You are short-sighted in viewing my behaviour mate. [

I don't see it as scum-Irrelephant miss-repping me though, just town-Irrelephant being very shortsighted

]

@Nauci - over to you.

Goddamnit how did you know

[Nauci]

I'm completely open to you explaining yourself? And confused why you won't

So I normally wouldn't have made the post I just did but I TR Keyser pretty hard because I felt like I had a pretty good grasp of his train of thought and what he was trying to communicate

I do really hate this behavior though, so I will not be doing it again; Keyser clarify your own damn interactions >:C

[Nauci]

@Nauci I never asked about scum!irrelephant?
And how am I your other top pick based on that logic?

You asked me how the Gustavo interactions helped my reads, so I explained the two reads that I now have more data points for because of his interactions

You are the other poster who is currently active and needs a lot more engagement to swing my scum vibe, versus nsg/tw/etc.

I have no idea how to even get nm to converse so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

Before I finish my catch up I just keep mentally going back to posts like these

So much of your content was fluff (Bernie speculation, "I don't feel like posting" posts, posts like these, etc.). I FOS you for the exact same reasons that I did back in page 5, just a little less because there's *some* engagement on the board.

But this reaction to my read of you just strikes me as strange and I don't have time to meta-dive you to figure out what it means for your alignment.

[Nauci]

I'm saying your logic is wrong. Multiple people have objected to your reasoning and you haven't taken any of it in.

This still implies I’m town.

I’m not taking it in because those people aren’t really looking at his actions. They are biased because they already town read him and they refuse to consider a new perspective.

Nobody has explained why town sho would lie like he did, why town sho would refuse to answer me, or even why town show would accuse others of misrepping when he is guilty of it himself.

So since nobody can do that, their opinions don’t really hold any weight.

This is basically multiple cases of conf.bias.

IDK. I feel like I internally put forth a real shake on the scumshin idea, and it just didn't hold water under scrutiny. I'm a pretty paranoid person so it's rare for me to actually have as many town reads as I do this game. I'll be sure to do another careful ISO towards the end of day 1 but seems like a waste to focus on one of the most substantive slots that we already have so much data for.

A lot more engagement how? If I need to be more engaged, what the fuck do you want from me? If others need to be more engaged with me that's placing the burden of removing the scumread on other people which isn't fair to me because regardless of what I do if no one else does what you want "oh no one is engaging with him, SCUM!!!!"

Oh dear lord.

*FEELS INTENSFIES*

has Gamma finally cracked?

I mean in a sense yeah? I'm not very happy with the standard Nauci seems to be judging me from.

I'm having a really hard time understanding this bit.

Are you angry that I have a high bar for town reading someone? Or just that I applied that bar to you? I mean I evaluate what there is to evaluate and it's nothing personal if I don't think your contributions deserve a town clear, and I'm not posting my reads of you like some angry command to DANCE MONKEY, DANCE UNTIL I PERSONALLY DEEM IT A SUFFICIENT PERFORMANCE.

I'll town read you if I see posts with town motivation, and defensive posts are at best NAI...

[Nauci]

Okay so I felt like all of the little side comments and whatever I had to contribute weren't super useful and I was bogging down the thread so I took some time off and made this instead. I struggle really badly with keeping mental track of vote record and therefore VCA so I thought this might help everyone. I went through the whole thread 3x so I think it's accurate.

@Brass: Do you want the google doc for this? It's auto generated after vote info input.

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record

Gamma Emerald (5) -

Nauci #102

,

Mathdino

#734[/size],

Bernie Sanders

#841[/size],

Shoshin

#1162[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1163[/size],

stungun0404/Gustavo #1189

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1199[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1300

Bernie Sanders (2) -

Keyser Soze

#1252[/size],

Irrelephant11 #1254

,

Momrangal

#1270[/size]

Momrangal (2) -

northsidegal/Errantparabola #97

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #315

,

skitter30 #427

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #428

,

skitter30

#1070[/size],

Nauci

#1079[/size]

GeminiTwin12/the worst (1) -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #169

,

skitter30 #527

,

Bernie Sanders #633

,

Nauci #675

,

Gamma Emerald

#1294[/size]

Mathdino -

stungun0404/Gustavo #12

,

Shoshin #13

,

Bernie Sanders #323

Nauci -

Mathdino #189

,

Shoshin #191

,

Irrelephant11 #473

,

Momrangal #799

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #801

Irrelephant11 -

Nauci #9

,

Nauci #704

,

skitter30 #741

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #788

skitter30 -

Irrelephant11 #85

,

Keyser Soze #219

,

Irrelephant11 #222

,

Irrelephant11 #423

,

Momrangal #502

Shoshin -

skitter30 #15

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #970

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

Momrangal #51

,

Bernie Sanders #142

stungun0404/Gustavo -

Shoshin #96

,

Irrelephant11 #99

,

Bernie Sanders #133

,

Shoshin #965

,

Gamma Emerald #1140

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

stungun0404/Gustavo #170

Keyser Soze -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #227

,

Irrelephant11 #421

UNVOTE (3) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #136

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #569

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #828

,

Keyser Soze #851

,

Irrelephant11 #900

,

Shoshin #999

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1191

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1193[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1303[/size],

Irrelephant11

#1315[/size]

VOTE RECORD BY PLAYER

Gamma Emerald

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #1140

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1294

Bernie Sanders

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #133

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #142

,

Mathdino #323

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #633

,

Gamma Emerald

#841

Momrangal

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #51

,

skitter30 #502

,

Nauci #799

,

Bernie Sanders

#1270

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Keyser Soze #227

,

Momrangal #315

,

Nauci #801

,

Gamma Emerald #1300

,

UNVOTE

#1303

Mathdino

-

Bernie Sanders #7

,

Nauci #189

,

Gamma Emerald

#734

Nauci

-

Bernie Sanders #8

,

Irrelephant11 #9

,

Gamma Emerald #102

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #675

,

Irrelephant11 #704

,

Momrangal

#1079

Irrelephant11

-

skitter30 #85

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #99

,

skitter30 #222

,

Keyser Soze #421

,

skitter30 #423

,

Nauci #473

,

UNVOTE #900

,

Bernie Sanders #1254

,

UNVOTE

#1315

skitter30

-

Shoshin #15

,

Momrangal #427

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #527

,

Irrelephant11 #741

,

Momrangal

#1070

Shoshin

-

Mathdino #13

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #96

,

Nauci #191

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #965

,

UNVOTE #999

,

Gamma Emerald

#1162

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #169

,

Gamma Emerald

#1163

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

UNVOTE #136

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #170

,

Momrangal #428

,

UNVOTE #569

,

Irrelephant11 #788

,

UNVOTE #828

,

Shoshin #970

,

Gamma Emerald #1189

,

UNVOTE #1191

,

Gamma Emerald

#1199

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

Momrangal #97

,

UNVOTE

#1193

Keyser Soze

-

skitter30 #219

,

UNVOTE #851

,

Bernie Sanders

#1252

Okay I realize that deadline is coming up fast, but I basically have 2% as much time on my hands because bootcamp is starting so I'm going to be curt from now on.

[Nauci]

Woo I'm glad 3 hours of obsessive Google Sheetsing was helpful

Quick notes:

-Dislike Gus calling for early end of day w/ so many people not posting
-Gamma we can't just keep playing the "I don't think you've made many town posts if at all" vs "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE'S NOT ENOUGH WHY ISN'T THERE ENOUGH WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME" game because that's definitely not town posting
-Gamma's questions post felt like pretty surface level questions idk
-Irrelephant sorry I missed the earlier question; I realize that we were out of RVS pretty quickly but I didn't recall anything particularly meaty happening for a few more pages (I didn't think Shosh/Math interaction was meaningful, but the fallout from it was), but 5 was just an approximation.

I need to find time for an ISO but I just haven't gotten the town vibes from momrangal that apparently over half the game has gotten. Can anyone explain their gut feel? I've read some of the individual posts about it but haven't felt convinced at all and am sad that we haven't wanted to explore that at all. I think there's enough room left in the game to pressure a couple of other people.

Also going to set aside time to look at the vote stuff I assembled and see if anything jumps out at me as a result of it. I was too focused on putting it together to actually parse it but no time yet :/

[Nauci]

At a glance, I find the lack of counter wagon possibly disturbing... I also don't want to vote w/ Not_Mafia. Not one bit.

@Everyone on the Gamma wagon:

Who else would you vote if it wasn't Gamma?

[Nauci]

actually i reconsider my take on the lack of opposition to the gamma thing; nauci, if gamma ever flips scum that's a gross post and you're my first bet for a partner

specifically i'm considered that the first time you brought up this take is *after* i made a thing about it, and that you've been pushing the gamma and/or his wagon for a while now despite not joining it

like how do you just now decide 'at a glance i find the lack of a counter wagon' possibly disturbing; you literally just had a thing about people's voting patterns, and nm has been on the wagon for like three irl days now.

I'm not super sure what you're talking about but the post I made was just after I read Shoshin's reply to me and I didn't read any of the updates because I hadn't had time

@the worst

I have absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that NM is town so following that blank vote feels vvvvvv bad

Not to mention I don't town read you or Irrelephant and don't want to vote where you are wanting to either

And I don't believe in doing this just to end the day when we have a few more days

Excited to read the giant Bernie post but don't have time tonight T_T

[Nauci]

At a glance, I find the lack of counter wagon possibly disturbing...

How do you find something "possibly" disturbing?

Because while it's possible that the half of the town that's actually active has collectively settled on actual scum

Or a bunch of scum know we're about to mislynch and are happy to sit bad and twiddle their thumbs; no need to draw unnecessary attention to themselves to save their own via counter wagoning. The wagon is too big to all be scum but there's just so much passivity.

I remember the glee and anticipation of Irrelephant11 and Brassherald during d3 of our game where they were actively F5ing a lot, waiting for town to fall on their own sword to their own theories, and the quietness makes me very paranoid that's happening

But I say possibly because I have no way to rule out the possibilities that A: most of the active players are town and scum aren't fighting it because they're the afk ones, or B: scum are the people who did try to push someone else but just haven't been successful enough for there to be much of a counter wagon

I think I scrolled past Bernie voting for momrangal so that might change this analysis, but that was my train of thought at the time of that post

[Nauci]

I don't think NM would blank vote bus short of wifom, Bernie

Either he's scum hopping on an opportunity, or town who thinks gamma is scum

I don't see how he would break from apathy and silence for next level mind games when he can just as easily do what we expect: nothing.

Can't 100% rule out chaos factor for NM because I don't know him well enough; can people who have played with him comment on how often he does something as chaotic as that?

[Nauci]

Mom is town tho

1: Momrangal being potentially town is why I said Bernie's vote my change my previous feelings about the lack of counter wagon

2: seriously I don't understand why everyone is town reading her, TW can you explain your thought process there

[Nauci]

Okay you have to admit that it's reasonable for me to question if your townread on her is worth its salt if the post was defending you, regardless of the rest of the context, right?

I probably have 2-3 games where I've run up a wagon personally or there was a wagon on someone I thought was scum, but I protested ending the day any earlier than necessary before exploring more avenues and gathering more information.

There's nothing mutually exclusive about being suspicious of Gamma and suspicious around the circumstances of this vote count/game state.

@brass: NM hasn't post in 2.5 days

Irrelephant11/TW/whomever else was planning to hammer: can we wait to see if Math/NM respond to prods in time? Which is a minimum of 12 hours from now, I think?

Short list of players I absolutely do not want lynched today:

Skitter, Keyser, Shoshin

Rather not lynch:

Bernie, Gus, Math (not a TR, but would be far easier to sort tomorrow)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯:

Irrelephant11, Errant

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS (except not actually: while I'd be okay with any one of these heads rolling, I need more time to figure out which is actually scum since obviously not all can be):

Not_Mafia, The Worst, Gamma, Momrangal

Goodnight!

[Nauci]

yeah but why are you asking me to remove context from my reads on people? :/

That's a dumb misrep and is not what I said at all. >:C

I'll take heed of others' opinions on that post but I think you're susceptible to pocketing so you'd have to find other posts from her you like for me to take your viewpoint into serious consideration for my read

[Nauci]

TW I'm literally agreeing with your post there. It's not an attack to say you could have been pocketed there; it was an affirmation to that exact sentiment.

--

Hhmmm a brief analysis of the Gamma wagon and it looks pretty bizarre.

Not_Mafia empty vote
Mathdino vote w/o much explanation back on page 30
Gus voting largely because Gamma didn't vote anyone for a really long time (which isn't AI IMO). Gus unvoted because his scum read (Shosh) voted Gamma, but then put it back, and hasn't answered "do you think Gamma and Shosh are scum together" yet
Former Bernie Sanders vote basically because lack of engagement (just before the time of the vote) and POE
Shoshin blank vote - I ctrl-F'ed gamma in Shoshin's ISO and could find almost no interactions/comments on Gamma, but a lot of "X, what's your read on Gamma" and posts with gamma as a subject but not target

The Worst's for-all-intents-and-purposes -1 vote on hold actually has somewhat of a case (refusal to engage, and something about shading people in the post about activity)
Irrelephant w/ intent to hammer with a case - "He definitely hasn’t been super helpful, and in his last dozen/two dozen posts he fees less like town trying to help make his own lynch worthwhile and more like scum trying to hide associatives"

I didn't take time to think about the wagon because I had Gamma in my "yeah I'd be down w/ a lynch there" but not my "let's poke it and see if it hurts" pile, and I regret that. Me feeling like it's justified to lynch someone should not let people push for that lynch w/o declaring thought processes, so:

@Shoshin why do you prefer a Gamma lynch?

@Irrelephant Did what you referred to as "my reason for ever having a townread will either be proven or disproven before the lynch goes through" happen? Are you still waiting for it to? Can you explain what you meant?

Need to hear Gus's answer and responses from the prods too. There's way less info to be gained from this than I was under the impression of.

God I just cannot seem to shake this gut sense that it's irrelephant/momrangal + any 1 of {math, not_mafia, the worst, or even Shoshin) but I really haven't had time to formulate that hunch into line items. If I'm available before hammer tomorrow/Monday I will try to write up an exploration of that gut fear. It's 5:30 AM

inb4 I stay up the rest of the morning ISOing because this mind itch is too much

[Nauci]

Your command is my wish

[Nauci]

I voted nauci for a # of reasons, none of which are stated and one of said reasons are I'm itching for EoD and top two TRs are/were strongly advocating it

Wait am I reading this correctly

Because this looked like a super blatant admission of opportunistic wagon voting to push any (mis)lynch?

No, just you.

There are many people I wouldn't vote under any circumstance.

You're null, always have been

I think several mom posts sounded kinda town but a few pinged me

Like the original quoted post here which seemed to say she was voting me as an easy sheep to end the day which looked blatantly opportunistic.

The response seems to be saying no, she wouldn't be opportunistically voting *any* wagon to secure a (mis)lynch, only me, but declares I've always been null. I mean I'm getting wifom in that scum wouldn't just announce blatant mislynch opportunistic voting this way, right? Idk I'm so confused by this one

[Nauci]

Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

I'm hung up on it.

Gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right.

Wagon comp could be better and I may be hung up on the fact that Bernie is on there. It doesn't seem like much of a bus placement but in my mind, both Bernie and gamma have decent chance of flipping scum but I don't see much associations between them.

That aside, I feel like gamma has been getting a little bit more engaged and I don't want to discourage that especially when I think I see some probing I don't remember coming from scum gamma

Huh this post makes me feel better about momrangal, because I'm now seeing that "something doesn't feel right" about the gamma wagon...

Hmm.

UNVOTE:

[Nauci]

My experience with Nm is he’s useless and never actually plays the game. He literally does nothing to help town

How does he not get PLed every game

Wat

[Nauci]

Mind telling the class how none of what I've been doing is scumhunting?

I don't think there's much chance of convincing you that you're scum, so not sure what you're hoping to achieve here.

Convincing me that you're not manufacturing a crock of bullshit to mislynch me?

That should be apparent from my posting. If I'm wrong about you, then where did I go wrong with my townreads?

That was the weird thing

I've been pressuring Gamma since his first 5 posts but I didn't see much commentary from you on why he's scum until the post today

But there is a lot of evidence of how much you've been thinking about his slot, asking him questions and asking others questions about him. Not sure what alignment info I'd pull out of that but I don't have much insight into your thought process on any individual post from him

[Nauci]

My experience with Nm is he’s useless and never actually plays the game. He literally does nothing to help town

I almost never want to PL but extreme inactivity and refusal to participate from a slot that only posts 2 words to prod Dodge makes the whole game so much harder to read that I want to. Like he's so anti town that it's made me question the scumread of Gamma I had for most of the game and if he's just going to be a source of this paranoia indefinitely even if he's not scum I can't abide it. The only reason I didn't already do this is because for some reason a lot of town were making "oh nm is always undeterringly useless and anti town" statements that discouraged voting there but I don't see why

VOTE: not_mafia

I do think gamma would give us more to read tomorrow than NM but literally everyone would

Not sure if nm flip would give us any info but that's just more of my frustration with the slot

[Nauci]

Okay you have to admit that it's reasonable for me to question if your townread on her is worth its salt if the post was defending you, regardless of the rest of the context, right?

Irrelephant11/TW/whomever else was planning to hammer: can we wait to see if Math/NM respond to prods in time? Which is a minimum of 12 hours from now, I think

First question pings me a ton

Yeah definitely, as long as we leave a little time for potential claiming/wagon switching

Also my towntell on Gamma has not been affirmed or refuted by anything since. Still pretty sure it’ll happen or not happen soon tho

Also this disturbs me a bit: you have a towntell on me? You've never played with me!

I think I know what he means and it's probably not a "town tell" type of thing

[Nauci]

It's important to note that just because I think it'd be a fine lynch even if he's town, I don't think he's town. However, gamma hopping on this one hope of a counter wagon feels like potentially one more cop out from scum hunting, but at least he provided context where NM actually post. Hard to square my read of gamma with my read of the reads on gamma.

I'm okay lynching nm if I don't feel like the stuff I'm uncomfortable with on the gamma wagon is resolved, because I don't think anyone is going to drop a new case in time that's superior to what we've got.

I think Bernie and Mom aren't s/s but maybe also not t/t so I need to reread there

Irrelephant11/the worst now that he's back at -3 are you going to vote gamma

No more posts until I see either non contributors post or Skitter/Keyser can give me guidance; gosh I hope my strongest town reads aren't horribly wrong

PEdit:

Shoshin I saw people saying NM is readable if he posts, which makes sense. I've skimmed games where NM posts and I would agree he's readable then. But how does your view factor in when he's averaging 2-3 words a day?

Also wait what the hell I thought PLs basically only happened D1 because it's not much worse than the otherwise uninformed reads; when is policy lynching at LYLO ever a thing? Isn't it by definition the last thing you should do at LYLO because policy lynching means beneficial even if they were town? What?!???

Man that's

What?!?!?

[Nauci]

Also wait what the hell I thought PLs basically only happened D1 because it's not much worse than the otherwise uninformed reads; when is policy lynching at LYLO ever a thing? Isn't it by definition the last thing you should do at LYLO because policy lynching means beneficial even if they were town?

What's the purpose of a policy lynch? If it's to remove players you don't like, then sure, lynch on D1. But if it's to remove players who can't be read, the optimal strategy is lynching them at the last possible moment after all efforts to read them have failed.

I think towns are capable of consistently lynching scum on D1, so I disagree that PLs aren't much worse than lynching uninformed reads. I also think PLs should be reserved for cases where a player truly can't be read, not for cases where you dislike how a player plays.

D: D: D:

This runs basically counter to all mafia theory I've ever come across

I don't even know how to process that into my understanding of your thought processes

[Nauci]

I can't sit on an NM vote because Gamma chased me on that one

It feels so gross from him. One of the few things that I had as a Gamma town point was the vanity the_worst vote because it seemed like conviction to go after a dead wagon versus hopping on a convenient counter wagon

Like I'm glad I made the NM vote because one of my hesitations with the gamma wagon was that I didn't see scum hopping on counter wagon opportunities, and that vote helped dispel those feels

UNVOTE:

Give me some time to figure out where I want to press at this point because it's exasperating that we're running a ~7 player game with Skitter/shosh/gamma/Irrelephant/Gus/the worst/myself close to deadline

[Nauci]

You disagree with what I'm saying, Nauci?

I disagree extremely emphatically with the idea of saving hard to read people for LYLO and policy lynching where PL by definition means not knowing someone's alignment at the most important point in the game to know alignments, yeah. I feel like I'm having to argue that "water" means dihydrogen monoxide in this conversation.

Ok back to work bbl

[Nauci]

I have lots of reasons to vote Gamma besides everyone else being more town.

For starters, he spent the majority of the day laying low and offering a couple safe reads on Key and Stun. Yes, he offered the occassional commentary (e.g. 318) but there's no in-depth analysis of alignments.

570 is a scummy I'm-not-town post; questioning Key here doesn't make much sense from a town perspective.

571 feels like a bullshit excuse for not having the excitement he would have had as town.

1109 and 1110 seem like someone who knows Gustavo is town rather than someone who's reading him genuinely. And the follow-up in 1140 feels opportunistic.

Then he starts playing the game a bit more actively since he's under pressure but keeps going after easy targets - eventually votes the worst, keeps talking about NM as null but now he's voting NM.

Ty for this post

I agree that he spent a lot of time laying low or fluff posting, and I agree that the gus and nm votes look opportunistic

IMO "wait why would you town read me here" posts are towny; not accepting someone's town read of you and making them cough up a reason is scum hunting just as if it is with any other town read on any other player. That might be, to me, his most town post on a very short list of them.

And I thought the same thing about Gus so I didn't see that as scummy; I questioned the about face to voting Gus if anything

But I can see your perspective on them despite disagreements

Gus you said you can see them as scum together but we want to know: does that mean you think Shoshin is hard bussing here?

[Nauci]

no rhymes, i'm going to do the read throughs i promised

catch me up

My favorite prodigal son

IMO read with a focus on the slots that are/were most up for lynch today: gamma, the worst, NM, Bernie, momrangal, me, maaaaaybe gus and Irrelephant

There's probably no time to dive anyone else and no urgency

But I'd really like your in depth thoughts on the worst, Shoshin, Irrelephant, and Bernie down the line no matter what your alignment is

[Nauci]

I don't think he's town. I think he's scum because he has cursory engagements but not follow ups and evaluations and lots of anger at being scum read.

But I disagreed about that post being a scummy one because, like you said, it's done by both alignments.

[Nauci]

is irrelephant actually ranmaru? because i was reading him under the assumption that he was

but he keeps posting onsite all like "wow i really love this new site!"

ranmaru literally said in my discord he was irrelephant wtf

Is ranmaru an engaged graphic designer? Or Irrelephant very committed to the smurf experience? Because they have dramatically different styles and Irrelephant has mentioned being new like 20x in his games.

I thought the ranmaru mention 20-30 pages ago was Bernie Sanders speculation

[Nauci]

actually i reconsider my take on the lack of opposition to the gamma thing; nauci, if gamma ever flips scum that's a gross post and you're my first bet for a partner

specifically i'm considered that the first time you brought up this take is *after* i made a thing about it, and that you've been pushing the gamma and/or his wagon for a while now despite not joining it

like how do you just now decide 'at a glance i find the lack of a counter wagon' possibly disturbing; you literally just had a thing about people's voting patterns, and nm has been on the wagon for like three irl days now.

Rereading pages 50+, I realized what Skitter's perspective looked like to the post that I typed up ignoring the 1-2 pages that happened after I started writing.

This post is an A+ reaction to those circumstances and reinforces my town read of skitter, I think. Just feels like a really good reaction that I 100% would have had in the same situation.

IDK how much credibility I have but what happened was that I spent 3 hours getting the vote count tracker just right, skimming the thread 3x for all of the votes and spending a lot of time tweaking Google Sheets formulas. I post it immediately because I was so excited to finish it. THEN I skimmed the posts that happened while I was working on that thing, and THEN I took some time to actually look at my own vote tracker.

I normally don't do VCA because it's just hard to keep track of mentally for me, so I wasn't paying attention to vote state before. I was totally shocked by the lack of counter wagons active, and then I took a look at the people actually voting Gamma. I thought that it was generally a concensus lynch by my town reads because people like Keyser *cased* Gamma, and I town read Shosh. But Keyser wasn't actually voting there (and it was a "you look like lynch bait" case, apparently), Shosh hadn't really talked about the scum read, and Math voted back in page 30 or so.

I basically agree with Keyser and Errant's notes on Gamma,

but neither of them were on the wagon

, so alarm bells went off BIG time.

That’s actually v true

I’m guessing at least two if not all three scum are in {Gamma, Bernie, people voting for Gamma or Bernie}

Otherwise they could easily be pushing one lynch or the other
Kind of like Gustavo seems to be doing?
Really can’t read Gustavo

While this didn't really apply because BS was v/la on his main, I appreciate it for teaching me what to look for when analyzing vote counts.

i don't understand why it's super hard to make a mom wagon a thing tbh; the only people like townreading her are irrelpahnt and duckling

+Shoshin (IIRC Shoshin answered at least half of my prods at/about momrangal)

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

well, duh, because she defended you

who are the scum that positioned your slot for a lynch?

i didn't like that post from her; most of her posting doesn't seem *sincere* or *real* to me; a lot of it feels kinda mechanical is maybe a good word? going through the motions? i don't know how to explain that better

--

besides honestly that's just the wrong track. Gamma is just not town here, and it's seriously gross the way you're pussyfooting around his lynch.

you know, for someone who's that confident he's scum, i'm wondering why you're not on the wagon yet

--

do you think shoshin and gamma are scum together, y/n?

@gustavo for like the third time

Idk

ok, let's try it this way. given that you scumread them both independantly what do you think of the fact that shoshin is pushing a gamma lynch right now?

Creepy mind melding with skitter continues (I'd like to think that a bunch of my previous posts were essentially these same thoughts; this isn't some I AGREE empty claim)

Huh this post makes me feel better about momrangal, because I'm now seeing that "something doesn't feel right" about the gamma wagon...

Hmm.

UNVOTE:

bleh, no, why'd you hop off?

Any time I go to sleep or be afk from a game in the final 72 hours, I unvote unless I'm *confident*. The last thing I did was ISO momrangal and I was seeing some towny stuff I had glossed over before. If her "something doesn't feel right" comment was for the same sentiments we had, then I was willing to give her some room.

People are probably bored like I am. I called for the day to end a while back. We just need to end it. The stall could be because you are scum and it’s mostly town on it, or you are town and it’s scum led.

Who knows

um, no, the the entire point of the game is to figure out which of the two it is; atm i think it's the latter from the complacent gamestate

Get out of my head kthxbai

i'm literally always down to pl nm if there's nothing better in the given gamestate but there's like legit scummy people in this game so idk why we'd settle for this today. like this is just a cop out.

and idk why his naked vote on gamma is enough to make you question your read on gamma; he always does that as either alignment and like i don't think that vote is ai like at all tbh

like this just feels like such a lazy resolution to today, even worse than a gamma lynch

if there's like a vig he's always a great shot; same with a cop check imo

there's justs so many scummy people in this game i have no idea why we'd settle for a pl in this gamestate

I didn't have as many strong scum reads as you do. While waiting for the weirdness on the Gamma wagon to shake out, I realized a ton of the weirdness was because how much frustration NM added to the whole evaluation. I went back and saw comments like "NM NEVER contributes" and "he never does anything pro-town" and thought that it was something to confront. Also I hadn't seen an NM game nearly this quiet. Thank you for the meta context here; I'd been waiting for Math to tell me about NM.

who are the scum that positioned your slot for a lynch?

re-read my ISO
literally said the idea crossed my mind, net all things I didn't find anyone particularly scummy for it. the way Bernie pushed it was a bit icky but he's already a hard townread.

still means I find it townie for someone to reach the same conclusion.

I frequently look for that kind of scenario but your posts for the first 45+ pages were *so* devoid of townness that it's not fair to consider it lynchbait analysis.

Also wow good memory Nauci, the one correction being *recently married

Congratulations!!!

Irrelephant11/the worst

now that he's back at -3 are you going to vote gamma

I'd like this answered but more importantly I'd like to know why those votes haven't gone up because TW only unovted to avoid quickhammer.

[Nauci]

I assume Brass won't adopt my VC because that'd be endorsing its veracity/endorsing me in some way so I'll keep posting these every 5 pages or 5 votes or so

Spoiler: UPDATED unofficial vote record

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record

Gamma Emerald (4) -

Nauci #102

,

Mathdino

#734[/size],

Bernie Sanders #841

,

Shoshin

#1162[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1163[/size],

stungun0404/Gustavo #1189

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1199[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1300

Momrangal (2) -

northsidegal/Errantparabola #97

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #315

,

skitter30 #427

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #428

,

skitter30

#1070[/size],

Nauci #1079

,

Bernie Sanders

#1363[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia (1) -

Momrangal #51

,

Bernie Sanders #142

,

Nauci #1411

,

Gamma Emerald

#1413[/size]

Bernie Sanders (2) -

Keyser Soze

#1252[/size],

Irrelephant11 #1254

,

Momrangal

#1270[/size]

Keyser Soze -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #227

,

Irrelephant11 #421

Nauci -

Mathdino #189

,

Shoshin #191

,

Irrelephant11 #473

,

Momrangal #799

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #801

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

stungun0404/Gustavo #170

GeminiTwin12/the worst -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #169

,

skitter30 #527

,

Bernie Sanders #633

,

Nauci #675

,

Gamma Emerald #1294

stungun0404/Gustavo -

Shoshin #96

,

Irrelephant11 #99

,

Bernie Sanders #133

,

Shoshin #965

,

Gamma Emerald #1140

skitter30 -

Irrelephant11 #85

,

Keyser Soze #219

,

Irrelephant11 #222

,

Irrelephant11 #423

,

Momrangal #502

Shoshin -

skitter30 #15

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #970

Mathdino -

stungun0404/Gustavo #12

,

Shoshin #13

,

Bernie Sanders #323

Irrelephant11 -

Nauci #9

,

Nauci #704

,

skitter30 #741

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #788

UNVOTE (4) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #136

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #569

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #828

,

Keyser Soze #851

,

Irrelephant11 #900

,

Shoshin #999

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1191

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1193[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1303[/size],

Irrelephant11

#1315[/size],

Nauci #1385

,

Gamma Emerald #1390

,

Nauci

#1445[/size]

VOTE RECORD BY PLAYER

Gamma Emerald

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #1140

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1294

,

UNVOTE #1390

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1413

Momrangal

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #51

,

skitter30 #502

,

Nauci #799

,

Bernie Sanders

#1270

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #169

,

Gamma Emerald

#1163

Bernie Sanders

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #133

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #142

,

Mathdino #323

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #633

,

Gamma Emerald #841

,

Momrangal

#1363

Keyser Soze

-

skitter30 #219

,

UNVOTE #851

,

Bernie Sanders

#1252

Nauci

-

Bernie Sanders #8

,

Irrelephant11 #9

,

Gamma Emerald #102

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #675

,

Irrelephant11 #704

,

Momrangal #1079

,

UNVOTE #1385

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1411

,

UNVOTE

#1445

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

Momrangal #97

,

UNVOTE

#1193

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Keyser Soze #227

,

Momrangal #315

,

Nauci #801

,

Gamma Emerald #1300

,

UNVOTE

#1303

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

UNVOTE #136

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #170

,

Momrangal #428

,

UNVOTE #569

,

Irrelephant11 #788

,

UNVOTE #828

,

Shoshin #970

,

Gamma Emerald #1189

,

UNVOTE #1191

,

Gamma Emerald

#1199

skitter30

-

Shoshin #15

,

Momrangal #427

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #527

,

Irrelephant11 #741

,

Momrangal

#1070

Shoshin

-

Mathdino #13

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #96

,

Nauci #191

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #965

,

UNVOTE #999

,

Gamma Emerald

#1162

Mathdino

-

Bernie Sanders #7

,

Nauci #189

,

Gamma Emerald

#734

Irrelephant11

-

skitter30 #85

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #99

,

skitter30 #222

,

Keyser Soze #421

,

skitter30 #423

,

Nauci #473

,

UNVOTE #900

,

Bernie Sanders #1254

,

UNVOTE

#1315

[Nauci]

Hard to decide where to vote. Still waiting for follow ups from math/keyser/errant/gustavo/etc.

I hate the fact that I have so many scum reads because of a lack of reason to town read/lack of activity, versus having a few strong scum reads because of noticeable scum motivation.

Errant, why still no vote?

Momrangal + Skitter + anyone else previously giving The Worst room to breathe: how do you read him now? That wagon fell apart on the basis of giving him more time, but we didn't really come back to re-evaluate properly. I will answer this once he answers me.

Just did a full ISO on Bernie and I don't see anything suspect beyond a lack of super dramatically towny posts (Keyser do you still think Bernie-Mom could be a thing when now that they're voting each other?).

I'll vote with 2 of my town reads while I wait VOTE: momrangal

[Nauci]

uh what am I meant to reply to?

End of 1466 I asked you + irrelephant 1419 again

[Nauci]

WRT momrangal, I've done more like a 45° and back. I went from having a bad gut feel from a few posts that pinged me (see my ISO) to voting to try and figure it out to rereading her ISO because several people were defending her as town and seeing town!mom as plausible so unvoting before I went to bed last night. But town!mom being plausible isn't nearly good enough and I'd like to see more here.

WRT counter wagons, I feel like the momrangal wagon is composed of town and people are either fully inactive or not jumping on the chance to get pressure off of gamma, but that I haven't waited for enough people to get the opportunity to read which of those two it is. Mom is voting Bernie but most town seem to town read him plus inactivity so I see why a wagon isn't building there (yet?).

The whole point is that if Gamma is scum, people would have been suspiciously trying to push counter wagons instead of sitting around contentedly waiting for the "inevitable" lynch to happen (while on or off the wagon itself). Half the people who cased Gamma aren't voting there but the quiet people we've been FOSing for inactivity are, so it's a weird spot where there's a good case against Gamma but also a ton of potential for opportunistic scum votes. The mom wagon is a result of these worries driving us to do more due diligence. Of course, scum could be inactive or giving up on Gamma or even bussing but it's my first game in a long time w/o competing wagons by end of day 1, and usually unchallenged ones were mislynches (a hard lesson after I drove a couple of those wagons).

We're back to Keyser's question from early in the day: does Scum!shosh hard bus? Because this is a pretty active and loud push from her and she's plenty active enough to take advantage of a counter wagon on Bernie or Mom or even starting one on me from the ill-timed optics of the quasi-Gamma-defense. I am very paranoid about Shoshin so I sit and question potential motives for her actions constantly but unless she's playing 12d chess I dont' see why she would do half of the things she has done, even when I disagree with them a lot.

The lie you say you caught her in didn't hold water because she said she frequently blank votes (not always) and she did that in her game. You can't say she lied because she sometimes explained unless she said she *always* blank votes or she explained almost every vote.

[Nauci]

Okay taking a 2 hr nap before boot camp but first week will be super intense 11 hr days so

officially LA through Friday the 6th

[Nauci]

though I have to question why he called out the fake hammer

^ hmmmmmmmmmmm

Justification is what scum do.

U fockin' wot m8

I continuously learn that I have absolutely no idea what's going on in your head

Like I don't see scum Shoshin because she has turned over more stones than almost everyone else combined this game and the aggro style aids with that but damn we apparently disagree on a whole lot of mafia theory on a fundamental level

[Nauci]

Bolded bit quick exp

I felt it was weird scum didn't try to counter wagon gamma so I wanted to see if one would form

But the momrangal one doesn't count here because I town read you and Bernie so it didn't change my weird feels about the gamma wagon because the people who are not counter wagoning might just be afk

But I think this train of thought was not very fruitful pending actually reading page 61+ and I don't have time yet

[Nauci]

oh i think i misread what you meant then

interested in hearing you elaborate on when you thought you were a viable lynch candidate

It was a list of the major wagons of the game; I think I had as many as 4 people voting me at one point? Maybe 5? Idk I wasn't paying attention but people kept taking about my wagon

[Nauci]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

I actually have a feeling

VOTE: bernie sanders

VOTE: bernie

You know, I extremely hate the fact that Irrelephant did that at least twice this game

[Nauci]

oh i think i misread what you meant then

interested in hearing you elaborate on when you thought you were a viable lynch candidate

It was a list of the major wagons of the game; I think I had as many as 4 people voting me at one point? Maybe 5? Idk I wasn't paying attention but people kept taking about my wagon

i guess i'm just finding it weird that you said you were a lynch candidate given that that wagon was hundreds of posts ago and i don't think you were in danger of getting lyched at any point

I don't see why you think it's so weird

I said are/were up for lynch aka being voted by a bunch of people with any level of seriousness, and to the best of my recall that's gamma, momrangal, Bernie, and previously the worst, myself, Gus, Irrelephant, in descending order. I wanted to include dead wagons and it'd be dishonest to not include mine when there was definitely serious FOSing on me

[Nauci]

I was writing a post on how I hate that there are 4 people I FOS + 2 people I town read but drastically disagree with voting for someone I scumread but I can't find what happened to it, damnit

3-4 hours of homework before back to lectures 9 AM no time to rewrite QQQQQQ

[Nauci]

Gamma Emerald has been lynched he was Ulysses Simpson Grant, Vanilla Townie

if only someone had spent a week shouting that this was going to be a town lynch ...

bernie, your progression from 'the wagon comp is bad and i see no scum motivation from gamma' to hammering him was gross and you have lost your townread

i'm now down to like ~3 townreads: shoshin, gustavo (provisionally because of stungun and because i think he actually believes what he's saying even tho he's wrong about everything), and nauci (because i actually see some town motivation from her; it's not a strong townread, more like there has to be town somewhere)

i'm going to start here i think

VOTE: the worst

and i am very happy to wagon mom too.

i still note that there was an *insane* amount of resistance to mom yesterday and now i'm actually proven right about the gamestate/counterwagon thing so you can't all argue something stupid like that she was scum!gamma's counterwagon

Weirdly enough, I read that progression as more town motivated because I couldn't see why he would wait until the last last last minute to pull out an incriminating meta dive, especially when Keyser had just made the momrangal wagon also viable. Unless mom-bernie actually is s/s which would seem weird too.

Anyway, loose groupings:

Good little boys and girls:

Skitter, Keyser, Bernie Sanders, Gustavo

Sigh, I Don't Have Time So I'll Be Up Until 5 AM Reading ISOs Because What the Fuck Is Happening Here:

Shoshin, Irrelephant, Errantparabola

Shitlist:

Momrangal, Not_Mafia, Mathdino, The Worst

Let's start with the fact that VOTE: Mathdino you jerk come in here and actually post the catch up you promised several times

Side note:

Irrelephant and I did a No Kill night 1 in Newbie 1863 and it tricked the town into thinking that there was a doctor or that the jailer successfully targeted scum night 1 (...which led to lynching the IC) so I have every paranoid thought about the night no kill regardless of the night extension shenanigans.

[Nauci]

Speaking of which, Keyser's vote wasn't reflected in the final vote counter.

I just finished updating mine. I messed up a thing and the first 3 votes weren't showing up but it's fixed now.

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record DAY 1

Spoiler: final vote count day 1

Gamma Emerald (7) -

Nauci #102

,

Mathdino

#734[/size],

Bernie Sanders #841

,

Shoshin

#1162[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1163

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1189

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1199[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1300

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1472[/size],

Irrelephant11

#1484[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1485[/size],

Bernie Sanders

#1620[/size]

Momrangal (3) -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #5

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #97

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #315

,

skitter30 #427

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #428

,

skitter30

#1070[/size],

Nauci #1079

,

Bernie Sanders #1363

,

Nauci

#1468[/size],

Keyser Soze

#1573[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

Momrangal #51

,

Bernie Sanders #142

,

Nauci #1411

,

Gamma Emerald #1413

Bernie Sanders (1) -

Mathdino #7

,

Nauci #8

,

Keyser Soze #1252

,

Irrelephant11 #1254

,

Momrangal

#1270[/size]

Keyser Soze -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #227

,

Irrelephant11 #421

Nauci -

Mathdino #189

,

Shoshin #191

,

Irrelephant11 #473

,

Momrangal #799

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #801

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

stungun0404/Gustavo #170

GeminiTwin12/the worst -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #169

,

skitter30 #527

,

Bernie Sanders #633

,

Nauci #675

,

Gamma Emerald #1294

stungun0404/Gustavo -

Shoshin #96

,

Irrelephant11 #99

,

Bernie Sanders #133

,

Shoshin #965

,

Gamma Emerald #1140

skitter30 -

Irrelephant11 #85

,

Keyser Soze #219

,

Irrelephant11 #222

,

Irrelephant11 #423

,

Momrangal #502

Shoshin (1) -

skitter30 #15

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #970

,

Gamma Emerald

#1503[/size]

Mathdino -

stungun0404/Gustavo #12

,

Shoshin #13

,

Bernie Sanders #323

Irrelephant11 -

Nauci #9

,

Nauci #704

,

skitter30 #741

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #788

UNVOTE (1) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #136

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #569

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #828

,

Keyser Soze #851

,

Irrelephant11 #900

,

Shoshin #999

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1191

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1193[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1303

,

Irrelephant11 #1315

,

Nauci #1385

,

Gamma Emerald #1390

,

Nauci #1445

VOTE RECORD BY PLAYER DAY 1

Spoiler: final votes by player day 1

Gamma Emerald

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #1140

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1294

,

UNVOTE #1390

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1413

,

Shoshin

#1503

Momrangal

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #51

,

skitter30 #502

,

Nauci #799

,

Bernie Sanders

#1270

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

Momrangal #5

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #169

,

Gamma Emerald #1163

,

Gamma Emerald

#1485

Bernie Sanders

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #133

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #142

,

Mathdino #323

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #633

,

Gamma Emerald #841

,

Momrangal #1363

,

Gamma Emerald

#1620

Keyser Soze

-

skitter30 #219

,

UNVOTE #851

,

Bernie Sanders #1252

,

Momrangal

#1573

Nauci

-

Bernie Sanders #8

,

Irrelephant11 #9

,

Gamma Emerald #102

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #675

,

Irrelephant11 #704

,

Momrangal #1079

,

UNVOTE #1385

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1411

,

UNVOTE #1445

,

Momrangal

#1468

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

Momrangal #97

,

UNVOTE

#1193

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Keyser Soze #227

,

Momrangal #315

,

Nauci #801

,

Gamma Emerald #1300

,

UNVOTE #1303

,

Gamma Emerald

#1472

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Mathdino #12

,

UNVOTE #136

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #170

,

Momrangal #428

,

UNVOTE #569

,

Irrelephant11 #788

,

UNVOTE #828

,

Shoshin #970

,

Gamma Emerald #1189

,

UNVOTE #1191

,

Gamma Emerald

#1199

skitter30

-

Shoshin #15

,

Momrangal #427

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #527

,

Irrelephant11 #741

,

Momrangal

#1070

Shoshin

-

Mathdino #13

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #96

,

Nauci #191

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #965

,

UNVOTE #999

,

Gamma Emerald

#1162

Mathdino

-

Bernie Sanders #7

,

Nauci #189

,

Gamma Emerald

#734

Irrelephant11

-

skitter30 #85

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #99

,

skitter30 #222

,

Keyser Soze #421

,

skitter30 #423

,

Nauci #473

,

UNVOTE #900

,

Bernie Sanders #1254

,

UNVOTE #1315

,

Gamma Emerald

#1484

[Nauci]

Irrelephant and I did a No Kill night 1 in Newbie 1863 and it tricked the town into thinking that there was a doctor or that the jailer successfully targeted scum night 1 (...which led to lynching the IC) so I have every paranoid thought about the night no kill regardless of the night extension shenanigans.

Lol

Funny enough I'm WIFOMing and think this makes you less likely to have been scum who pulled this because I'd immediately post that.

Just... scum who tried to kill someone unsuccessfully if you're scum.

[Nauci]

Skitter, Keyser, Bernie Sanders, Gustavo

Can you explain these reads?

In tl;dr form yes I have 4 minutes before my ride home shows up and then 20 hours of homework to do in 12 hours.

I have grokked almost all of Skitter's posts so hard that it feels like my own smurf account. I understand just about every thought and reaction to what she sees from her POV this game so if she's scum then fuck me it's gg.

I generally like Keyser's POV and thought processes and observations as well.

Bernie I've ISOed and just not found anything that says scum to me (plus the slightly WIFOM note from above).

Gustavo because I hard town read StunGun day 1, even though I totally disagree with most of his posts they read as kinda genuine town stubborness.

Can you explain what you meant by refusing to post justifications (about gamma potential partners) day 1? Is it that justify and explain mean different things to you?

[Nauci]

Can you explain what you meant by refusing to post justifications (about gamma potential partners) day 1? Is it that justify and explain mean different things to you?

Yes and yes.

Okay, follow up: what does justification mean to you?

[Nauci]

my biggest reads are keyser and bernie as town.
scummy off the wagon are skitter and momrangal but I'd have to read on how they interacted with Gamma prior for specific scumminess related to being off the wagon

That's kind of weird when Skitter (and I, but less so) started the momrangal wagon and is the only reason it continued to be a thing at all.

[Nauci]

You guys have got to stop town reading math

He's promised to come back and post several times, but I'm pretty sure every time he glances over, he sees that people are oddly town reading him and decides lol I can only make it worse by posting and fucks back off

I know because I suck at scumming and that was basically how I did it. And because Math repeatedly professes to suck at being scum.

Even NM has participated more at this point than Math and it's gross that we're letting him off the hook with some bizarre sort of elder respect or "seems good" approach.

It's even more questionable than the mysterious stubborn town reads of mom all of day 1

Outside of that though, I still scumread momrangal.

But this game doesn't look like it's going to progress at all w/o the half of the game who have been left behind actually participating so I'm de-prioritizing this versus bootcamp for now. I guess I need more than 3 hours of sleep a night...

Irrelephant, after all we learned from teh newbie game, why do you still think that wagon analysis has credence? What are you basing it on? Hunch? Statistics? Why is on/off wagon such an important measure to you? Does the VT flip factor into it? How?

What does "gross" mean WRT mom's posts on Gamma? If you think Mom is scum, does that affect your read of Bernie?

What about Keyser's end of day behavior makes you FOS him?

Your posts fell back into complacent/shallow as soon as we backed off the pressure on you and I don't like that one bit

[Nauci]

Irrelephant, after all we learned from teh newbie game, why do you still think that wagon analysis has credence? What are you basing it on? Hunch? Statistics? Why is on/off wagon such an important measure to you? Does the VT flip factor into it? How?

Also I'm basing VCA thoughts on this

But wait, if you think VCA is so useless, what is this for??? Sounds like you're admitting it's just LAMIST

Speaking of which, Keyser's vote wasn't reflected in the final vote counter.

I just finished updating mine. I messed up a thing and the first 3 votes weren't showing up but it's fixed now.

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record DAY 1

Spoiler: final vote count day 1

Gamma Emerald (7) -

Nauci #102

,

Mathdino

#734[/size],

Bernie Sanders #841

,

Shoshin

#1162[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1163

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1189

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1199[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1300

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1472[/size],

Irrelephant11

#1484[/size],

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1485[/size],

Bernie Sanders

#1620[/size]

Momrangal (3) -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #5

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #97

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #315

,

skitter30 #427

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #428

,

skitter30

#1070[/size],

Nauci #1079

,

Bernie Sanders #1363

,

Nauci

#1468[/size],

Keyser Soze

#1573[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

Momrangal #51

,

Bernie Sanders #142

,

Nauci #1411

,

Gamma Emerald #1413

Bernie Sanders (1) -

Mathdino #7

,

Nauci #8

,

Keyser Soze #1252

,

Irrelephant11 #1254

,

Momrangal

#1270[/size]

Keyser Soze -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #227

,

Irrelephant11 #421

Nauci -

Mathdino #189

,

Shoshin #191

,

Irrelephant11 #473

,

Momrangal #799

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #801

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

stungun0404/Gustavo #170

GeminiTwin12/the worst -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #169

,

skitter30 #527

,

Bernie Sanders #633

,

Nauci #675

,

Gamma Emerald #1294

stungun0404/Gustavo -

Shoshin #96

,

Irrelephant11 #99

,

Bernie Sanders #133

,

Shoshin #965

,

Gamma Emerald #1140

skitter30 -

Irrelephant11 #85

,

Keyser Soze #219

,

Irrelephant11 #222

,

Irrelephant11 #423

,

Momrangal #502

Shoshin (1) -

skitter30 #15

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #970

,

Gamma Emerald

#1503[/size]

Mathdino -

stungun0404/Gustavo #12

,

Shoshin #13

,

Bernie Sanders #323

Irrelephant11 -

Nauci #9

,

Nauci #704

,

skitter30 #741

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #788

UNVOTE (1) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #136

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #569

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #828

,

Keyser Soze #851

,

Irrelephant11 #900

,

Shoshin #999

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1191

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1193[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1303

,

Irrelephant11 #1315

,

Nauci #1385

,

Gamma Emerald #1390

,

Nauci #1445

VOTE RECORD BY PLAYER DAY 1

Spoiler: final votes by player day 1

Gamma Emerald

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #1140

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1294

,

UNVOTE #1390

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1413

,

Shoshin

#1503

Momrangal

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #51

,

skitter30 #502

,

Nauci #799

,

Bernie Sanders

#1270

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

Momrangal #5

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #169

,

Gamma Emerald #1163

,

Gamma Emerald

#1485

Bernie Sanders

-

stungun0404/Gustavo #133

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #142

,

Mathdino #323

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #633

,

Gamma Emerald #841

,

Momrangal #1363

,

Gamma Emerald

#1620

Keyser Soze

-

skitter30 #219

,

UNVOTE #851

,

Bernie Sanders #1252

,

Momrangal

#1573

Nauci

-

Bernie Sanders #8

,

Irrelephant11 #9

,

Gamma Emerald #102

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #675

,

Irrelephant11 #704

,

Momrangal #1079

,

UNVOTE #1385

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1411

,

UNVOTE #1445

,

Momrangal

#1468

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

Momrangal #97

,

UNVOTE

#1193

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Keyser Soze #227

,

Momrangal #315

,

Nauci #801

,

Gamma Emerald #1300

,

UNVOTE #1303

,

Gamma Emerald

#1472

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Mathdino #12

,

UNVOTE #136

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #170

,

Momrangal #428

,

UNVOTE #569

,

Irrelephant11 #788

,

UNVOTE #828

,

Shoshin #970

,

Gamma Emerald #1189

,

UNVOTE #1191

,

Gamma Emerald

#1199

skitter30

-

Shoshin #15

,

Momrangal #427

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #527

,

Irrelephant11 #741

,

Momrangal

#1070

Shoshin

-

Mathdino #13

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #96

,

Nauci #191

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #965

,

UNVOTE #999

,

Gamma Emerald

#1162

Mathdino

-

Bernie Sanders #7

,

Nauci #189

,

Gamma Emerald

#734

Irrelephant11

-

skitter30 #85

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #99

,

skitter30 #222

,

Keyser Soze #421

,

skitter30 #423

,

Nauci #473

,

UNVOTE #900

,

Bernie Sanders #1254

,

UNVOTE #1315

,

Gamma Emerald

#1484

Wagon on/off is a small subset of vote patterns and behavior. Seeing who has pushed/voted for people throughout the game is very important.

I think declaring the number of scum you think were on/off the wagon is like looking at a bunch of stars and going into astrology instead of astronomy. It's important to look at who voted and what their reasons were, and who didn't vote and what their reasons were. While it's often true that some scum are on and some are off the wagon, there's really no reason to assume that. Weren't we both off wagon for the JB lynch?

[Nauci]

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record Day 2

Momrangal (3) -

Bernie Sanders

#1660[/size],

Irrelephant11

#1662[/size],

skitter30

#1663[/size]

Keyser Soze (2) -

Shoshin

#1629[/size],

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1674[/size]

Mathdino (1) -

Nauci

#1638[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

None

Bernie Sanders (0) -

None

Nauci -

None

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

None

GeminiTwin12/the worst -

skitter30 #1627

stungun0404/Gustavo -

None

skitter30 -

None

Shoshin -

None

Irrelephant11 -

None

UNVOTE/Not Voting -

None

Vote Record By Player Day 2

Spoiler: day 2

Momrangal

- None

Keyser Soze

- None

Mathdino

- None

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

- None

Bernie Sanders

-

Momrangal

#1660

Nauci

-

Mathdino

#1638

northsidegal/Errantparabola

- None

GeminiTwin12/the worst

- None

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Keyser Soze

#1674

skitter30

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1627

,

Momrangal

#1663

Shoshin

-

Keyser Soze

#1629

Irrelephant11

-

Momrangal

#1662

@brass I unofficially got chu fam

mmk class time peace y'all

[Nauci]

(Irrelephant it would be nicer if I didn't have to come after you to get posts like these!)

[Nauci]

Lol it would be nicer if you would just know I’m town and believe the things I say

But I guess I could write out my thought process in full more often, when that’s helpful

Actually it wouldn't be nicer >:C

It's nicer for everytown involved if you continue to write out these thought processes regardless of how much I think you're dirty dirty scum

[Nauci]

People who think they are logical are the biggest stubborn asses lmao

Your stances can be as logical as you'd like but if your premises are wrong then you're still wrong

And most others obviously seem to disagree with your premises

Appeals to logic only work if we share a reality, after all

[Nauci]

But aggression means screaming other people down instead of of explaining your reasoning or premises. "BECAUSE I SAID SO" and "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE IT'S OBVIOUS" are so utterly unproductive as to be counter productive and actively make you impossible to sort.

Is it not obvious that no matter how good your reads are, if you don't make yourself sortable we can't trust a damn thing you say?

@irrelephant: I happen to excel the most in emotional reading and empathizing do a lot of my scum hunting is base on a somewhat organic approach of seeing if someone's opinions and thought processes come from a genuine place, so every question I have that gets people to explain their state of mind is directly useful. No "but it feels weird!" Is allowed to stand for long, including my own!

[Nauci]

But my premises aren’t wrong.

I'm not sure if you understand the definition of disgree

[Nauci]

It feels like I'm forced to look like a lazy suspect the lurkers type but there are so damn many lurkers.

[Nauci]

I was super looking forward to playing with math so I am pretty sad he's getting replaced (right?).

[Nauci]

On mobile but

@irrelephant you said you still scum read Keyser and I'd like to know why and how his EOD posts affected that read progression

[Nauci]

Weirdly enough, I read that progression as more town motivated because I couldn't see why he would wait until the last last last minute to pull out an incriminating meta dive, especially when Keyser had just made the momrangal wagon also viable. Unless mom-bernie actually is s/s which would seem weird too.

I agree with this read of Bernie EOD1, though I'm curious why you (Nauci) think mom/bernie s/s would be weird

Because they had been FOSing and/or voting each other for most of the day I guess

[Nauci]

my biggest reads are keyser and bernie as town.

scummy off the wagon are skitter and momrangal but I'd have to read on how they interacted with Gamma prior for specific scumminess related to being off the wagon

yes, please do so and elaborate

--

You guys have got to stop town reading math

He's promised to come back and post several times, but I'm pretty sure every time he glances over, he sees that people are oddly town reading him and decides lol I can only make it worse by posting and fucks back off

I know because I suck at scumming and that was basically how I did it. And because Math repeatedly professes to suck at being scum.

i'm not townreading him; he's hard null; i can't imagine that he's decided to stop posting everywhere on-site in order to win this game as scum; it's just not something i see him doing like ever

i think he's just busy irl

pressuring him when he isn't here to see it doesn't do anything and won't get him to post content, and brass said he'll replace him in the next couple of days if he doesn't come back

pushing him is a waste of your vote because if he's literally not here and doesn't see it voting him won't make him do anything. like that isn't an effective solution to this problem

--

he's been offsite for a few days with irl stuff

focus elsewhere nauci.

duckling you need to do the 'talk about the game' thing

--

he's been offsite for a few days with irl stuff

focus elsewhere nauci.

the way i pointed out all the problems you have with her play yesterday and you ignored them because she was on your highest tier of townreads, which you couldn't actually justify when prodded to do so

i'm slightly worried that both you and bernie jumped on her today and it makes me wonder if she's either the designated mislynch or the designated bus, although your pair of votes does seem to be indicative that the two of you (bernie and irrelephant) are probably not partners

--

But vca is a helpful tool and it is honestly just very likely that I'm write about the 2/1 split, with a possible exception in the case of lurky scum

there's almost for sure at least one scum on the wagon, and i doubt all three of them are on it

i really have no way of pinning down whether it's one or two at this time

Gamma Emerald(7) ~ Mathdino, Shoshin, Not_Mafia, Gustavo, the worst, Irrelephant11, Bernie Sanders
Momrangal(2) ~

skitter30

, Nauci
Bernie Sanders(2) ~ Keyser Söze, Momrangal
Shoshin(1) ~

Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (1): Errantparabola

although if i actual look at this and color in the flips and me it's indicative that if there's two off it's one of {errant/nauci} and one of {keyser/ mom} (ignoring my own personal reads + the fact that i don't think two scum were sitting on bernie at eod)

if we factor in my reads it points to mom + errant i think given town!nauci and scum!mom

that's my most likely guess if there's two off.

Well I feel like I was obviously talking to the people who did town read him so lol I don't think that was necessary

I was kinda vote parking while I figured out which stone I wanted to check under

Here seems decent while I still don't have time to catch up

VOTE: the worst

[Nauci]

And most others obviously seem to disagree with your premises

I don’t care if poeple agree with them. I can’t control what I find scummy. That’s why I abandoned my sho push. I really regret doing it but that’s the thing people hate about my play so I adapted to please people. It sucks for me but that’s how I get better supposedly. It’s not working

Well you should care, because theoretically your premises are facts and people are saying they are incorrect.

Whether or not Shoshin explained all of her reads or just some of them in the game you mentioned seems to be a fact, not an opinion, and multiple people have pointed out that it was the latter and therefore not inconsistent with this game.

[Nauci]

Still skimming really hard but still feeling Gus is town

I moved Shoshin to null at beginning of day because I realized I was giving her tons of credit for the replies she has provoked from others and maybe the thought processes I attributed to her needed revaluation if I'm disagreeing with so many fundamental aspects of the game.

I voted tw for now because "move off math" is yet another look-busy

[Nauci]

Oops accidentally hit submit while trying to edit

It was another "look busy" post without contributing much post

There have been more since but I don't have time to read d2 yet T_T

[Nauci]

Hi guys! I was spectating the game but was skimming pretty hard. So, I'll give it a thorough read-through. I'm going to do something different here and actually post walls of quotes responding to everything I find notable and then post a list of my reads in the end. I think it'll help me process the game faster. Also, I have to leave for work in around 3.5 hours but I have the day off tomorrow so that's when I'll do the bulk of it.

Welcome!

Excited for some new activity!

P.S. are you scum?

[Nauci]

Lmao did I just see half a page of "Nauci is trying extremely hard this game but nothing town besides that"?

Because lol fuck off

What do you want from me besides trying incredibly hard all game: the first letter from all of my posts spell out my role pm?

I hate this bullshit kind of "but it feeeeels off" without actually pointing to any single thing

[Nauci]

@errant How is it inconsistent?

@blackvoid all questions you directed to me have been answered. :thumbs up:

@nauci while it’s tempting to go re-read the first letter of all your posts... You’re certainly working hard, but I know from experience that you put in hard work as both alignments. You only got replaced that game because you spent too long writing too many words (as scum)! Off the top of my head though I can’t think of anything that comes from town-you more likely than it comes from scum-you. Sorry if that’s insulting, but it’s certainly notable that two other people said they felt the same way unprompted. I’ll have more to say about your alignment when I ISO you later

@Not_Mafia any chance you wanna vote someone?

2 people? TW and who? One is on my shit list this game

There's not enough data to really back it up but I gave up in my 2 early scum games and procrastinated hard in ours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But you're supposed to be reading my effort posts for perspective and motivations and if you find anything remotely pro scum or even anti town, post it and we'll talk

But this "feels off" shit is annoying af

However I will take the compliment that I would be clever enough and care enough to have an excellent scum game if I were scum, because I'd like that to be true someday. I think I have way more fun as VT than anything else though

I'm in the middle of a dozen hours of homework and figuring out how to see a doctor with no health insurance so I'm putting this off for a while longer

Might as well wait for NewMath and momrangal posts

[Nauci]

Ironically I feel like my reads are being brushed off unfairly. If you're town having a hissy fit and saying I'm in your shit list really doesn't help me correct them dude.

I'm brushing off the "feels" posts without specifics. I've been scumreading you for most of the game so what do you expect me to do with these empty reads?

Like if you want to contribute a case to solve the game, *case me,* but someone scum read by the game throwing out a "doesn't feel town" isn't earning credibility or contribute useful data points. The one point someone made about me that was a useful one was Skitter noting me notice the shitty gamma wagon just after she did, which showed town POV from her IMO. Do *that* instead.

I've literally spent the entire game criticizing "feels wrong" without reasoning posts and explaining why they are bad; do you need me to go quite the dozen places in my ISO where that happens to explain why I don't give your read any credence as it stands?

I don't know where you're getting these replace out or alignment spewing or whatever ideas and I'm not totally sure what they mean.

[Nauci]

5 min break from homework yay

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record Day 2

GeminiTwin12/the worst (4) -

skitter30 #1627

,

Nauci

#1768[/size],

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1770[/size],

skitter30

#1776[/size],

Bernie Sanders

#1839[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia (1) -

Irrelephant11

#1692[/size]

Nauci (1) -

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1826[/size]

skitter30 (1) -

Shoshin

#1784[/size]

Shoshin (1) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #1695

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1783[/size]

Momrangal -

Bernie Sanders #1660

,

Irrelephant11 #1662

,

skitter30 #1663

Bernie Sanders (0) -

None

Keyser Soze -

Shoshin #1629

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1674

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

None

stungun0404/Gustavo -

None

Mathdino/BlackVoid -

Nauci #1638

Irrelephant11 -

None

UNVOTE/Not Voting -

None

Vote Record By Player Day 2

Spoiler: Click Here

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Nauci

#1826

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

- None

Nauci

-

Mathdino/BlackVoid #1638

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1768

skitter30

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1627

,

Momrangal #1663

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1776

Shoshin

-

Keyser Soze #1629

,

skitter30

#1784

Momrangal

- None

Bernie Sanders

-

Momrangal #1660

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1839

Keyser Soze

- None

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#1770

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Keyser Soze #1674

,

Shoshin #1695

,

Shoshin

#1783

Mathdino/BlackVoid

- None

Irrelephant11

-

Momrangal #1662

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#1692

I'll probably uncontrollably slack off during lectures tomorrow to angrypost if I'm not tired from working all night? Idk I really don't want to evaluate the game state when mom/nm are silent and BV hasn't finished catch up. Feels like a waste of compulsive 1600 word posts.

It's totally bullshit for anyone to hand wave my literally thousands of words worth of analysis and postings and in depth thoughts as a bunch of meh NAI effort, then dare to accuse me of not presenting a proper case for my reads. Like it takes self control to not just passive aggressively quote my own posts about you back at you.

[Nauci]

Mom is town tho

Do you think Mom is scum now who pocketed you?

IMO it would be more useful to ask questions w/o feeding potential answers in the same stroke, just a side note.

[Nauci]

My apologies.

I promise to go back to actual reading today or tomorrow!

[Nauci]

UNVOTE:

Don't see a recent VC I am not risking the day ending early before I catch up

Ttyl 2 days of group projects I am dying

[Nauci]

Does anyone oppose a Mom lynch?

I'd like to take a look at tw first

Yesterday it was too hard and now it was too easy to wagon there...

[Nauci]

Lmao that's beautiful

Okay I opted out of group work so I can slack off and read today and then code until 5 AM too make up for my hubris

Priorities for me are evaluating, in this order, momrangal, bv, errant, tw, Shoshin, Irrelephant unless Keyser/Skitter have suggestions

Updating vote record first

[Nauci]

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record Day 2

Momrangal (4) -

Bernie Sanders #1660

,

Irrelephant11 #1662

,

skitter30 #1663

,

Bernie Sanders

#1893[/size],

skitter30

#1947[/size],

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1953[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2073[/size],

Irrelephant11 #2081

Keyser Soze (2) -

Shoshin #1629

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1674

,

Shoshin

#1928[/size],

Irrelephant11

#2100[/size]

GeminiTwin12/the worst (1) -

skitter30 #1627

,

Nauci #1768

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #1770

,

skitter30 #1776

,

Bernie Sanders #1839

,

Irrelephant11 #1936

,

Keyser Soze

#2109[/size]

stungun0404/Gustavo (1) -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#2010[/size]

Shoshin (1) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #1695

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1783[/size]

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) -

Shoshin #1927

,

Nauci

#2055[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

Irrelephant11 #1692

Bernie Sanders (0) -

None

Nauci -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1826

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

None

skitter30 -

Shoshin #1784

,

Irrelephant11 #1910

Mathdino/BlackVoid -

Nauci #1638

Irrelephant11 -

None

Vote Record By Player Day 2

Spoiler:

Momrangal

- None

Keyser Soze

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2109

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Nauci #1826

,

Momrangal

#2073

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Keyser Soze #1674

,

Shoshin #1695

,

Shoshin

#1783

Shoshin

-

Keyser Soze #1629

,

skitter30 #1784

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting #1927

,

Keyser Soze

#1928

UNVOTE/Not Voting

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

stungun0404/Gustavo

#2010

Bernie Sanders

-

Momrangal #1660

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1839

,

Momrangal

#1893

Nauci

-

Mathdino/BlackVoid #1638

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1768

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting

#2055

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1770

,

Momrangal

#1953

skitter30

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1627

,

Momrangal #1663

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1776

,

Momrangal

#1947

Mathdino/BlackVoid

- None

[Nauci]

Vote Record By Player Day 2

Reposting this because I somehow deleted Irrelephant's vote record line before.

Spoiler:

Momrangal

- None

Keyser Soze

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2109

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Nauci #1826

,

Momrangal

#2073

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Keyser Soze #1674

,

Shoshin #1695

,

Shoshin

#1783

Shoshin

-

Keyser Soze #1629

,

skitter30 #1784

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting #1927

,

Keyser Soze

#1928

UNVOTE/Not Voting

-

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

stungun0404/Gustavo

#2010

Bernie Sanders

-

Momrangal #1660

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1839

,

Momrangal

#1893

Nauci

-

Mathdino/BlackVoid #1638

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1768

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting

#2055

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1770

,

Momrangal

#1953

skitter30

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1627

,

Momrangal #1663

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1776

,

Momrangal

#1947

Mathdino/BlackVoid

- None

Irrelephant11

-

Momrangal #1662

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1692

,

skitter30 #1910

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1936

,

Momrangal #2081

,

Keyser Soze

#2100

[Nauci]

Readthrough Notes and Responses - Beginning of Day 2 through page 76

Spoiler:

1664 1670 1671 @Irrelephant

: My biggest objection to your statement was the sheer arbitrariness of "two scum on wagon and one off." Mastina discouraged it

twice

in that guide (which also says scum are less likely to be on a mislynch wagon). I don't understand on what grounds you made that statement, and why you would go so far as to ask us who of the rest is likely to be scum. It more appear-to-be-scum-hunting rather than real analysis. I want to know what aspects of the "lynch and the counterwagons" you're referring to and how they "felt" and what logic directs you to conclude 2 on 1 off from those things. Even after 1683, it's unclear why 2 on 1 off vs 1 on 2 off (et al).

As someone trying to sort people I demand that you (and Shoshin) not *just* stir up conversation but *contribute* your own thoughts because it's very easy to sit back and stir shit up and look productive as scum while not giving us thought processes and point of view content that is hard to fake.

I do not claim that my vote tracker effort is alignment indicative; I do claim that it was a more pro-town use of my time than continuing to drop 1600 word posts that make everyone dread reading the game.

___

1672

-Irrelephant I take back my view that mom-bernie being s/s is implausible. I thought at the time that it was implausible because while momrangal voteparked there and fucked off early, them voting each other was unnecessary. But I take that back because voting mom as a counter wagon doesn't get credit after the switch to hammering Gamma. However, my standalone analysis that the progression felt towny stands.

___

1698 1705 @Irrelephant

, your reads change really often, and usually seemingly closer to popular opinion/likely lynches...

___

1701 1702 @Gustavo

Town having to work together probably means you should pay more attention to who's voting where! And also stop calling people's posts "crappy shit" and telling them to stfu. Abrasiveness is generally anti-town because it's hard to read people when irritated.

If voting with your scumreads doesn't change your mind, does it mean you don't think about why someone you think is scum might vote someone (regardless of who)? How does telling someone to

not

ask questions/post analysis/vote help town? Were we supposed to read your mind and know that you voted with your scum read because you didn't see it, and factor that into our analysis via magic? Or know that you're town (if you are) magically?

It's ridiculous to keep interlacing posts insulting players with posts demanding teamwork and posts lambasting disagreement as not-teamwork.

___

1739

Okay

@Bernie

we have got to come back to this "I feel like I might've been the NK target last night" bit.

___

1744

-Errant lol yeah I was hoping for Math to get all NAUCI IS TOWN GODDAMNIT for 6 pages again. C'est la vie.

___

1746 @the worst

u fockin' wot m8

Whichever night you meant, please explain

___

1749

-Keyser I don't think Math made any scummy posts. But I think it's impossible to sort Math without a whole lot more posts, so I absolutely don't town read him. (I do think it's very possible to read him when he posts a lot, but, sadness.) I realize that the RL stuff factors in heavily, but I think Math is like me and would still make an effort to poke in a little even if unbelievably busy. Quiet Math != VT Math...

___

1756 @Keyser

I can't express how much I appreciate this post. I was feeling a bit paranoid/lost WRT Shoshin.

I also giggled at the "bludgeoned Gamma to death" bit. I think this was a pretty good example of "villagery fury."

___

1777 -The Worst

There are so many things wrong with the post, and the amount of OMGUS from TW only making maybe last place.

___

1782

-Gustavo



___

1783 @Gustavo

Thank you.

This post helped me figure out what the bad vibes I had gotten were about. I felt like I had a good grasp of her state of mine through her posts but her vote pattern pinged me several times.

___

1784

-Shoshin Like here!

___

1792 @Shoshin

Why?

___

1792 1797 1801

-Shoshin -Errant Good catch y'all.

___

1803 @Shoshin

Why? here also.

___

1805 @irrelephant

Actually I was silently eating crow because for all of my hesitations and circumstantial worries, I was leaning scum on Gamma albeit with increasing doubt.

___

1812 @the worst

Towntelling as in what you think my towntells are, or what you consider to generally be town tells?

___

1813

-Keyser

Still don't like it but still think this is also town fury.

Not sure if I understand why pre-flip hypothesizing is town AI, however.

___

1824 @BlackVoid

TBH I'm a bit fuzzy on my thought process back at page 5. I think that it was I thought Shoshin's reaction was really genuine, and Skitter's reaction to her analysis of Math was very genuine, and then their continued interactions were not likely to be faked. Looking back, I feel exactly the same way that Skitter's correction of Shoshin's potential misconception was very towny, but don't know why I would have thought it made s/s more plausible than scumshoshin/townskitter, because I now don't have that reaction.

WRT 151, I think it felt like it was "quick" because I was reading all of those pages in a catchup instead of real time.

___

1829 @Keyser

I think you should do a similar analysis for the progression of TW's reads on momrangal, and how often TW voted/FOSed people who FOS him. I'm not saying this Socratically like it'll have an obvious conclusion; only that they are important thought processes we need to investigate.

___

1832 @irrelephant

TBH, I don't think anything I'm doing would be out of my potential scum game (if I ever had a good one). I'm capable of thinking to do anything of the things I've done so far. However, any one of those things would be waaaay more difficult for me to do (a large part of why I procrastinated so long that game, mixed with how I kept getting away with it and not being FOSed by anyone but you for lurking), so the amount of intense thought process posts I've been making would have taken me a maaaaassive amount of time (whereas as town, the tryhard zuihitsu wallposts come to me very fluidly). So the same post that I spent so long working on that I got replaced out, I would have finished in 6 hours as town that game.

On one hand, it's very complimentary to each other that we're FOSing each other so hard because we think we'd be such capable scum players, but on the other hand, it's really not helping anybody (us included) sort us. I'm going to continue to try and force you to post things that would be extremely difficult for scum you to come up with, and, I'm guessing, vice versa.

___

1833 @Skitter

I think one component of why it was really hard to start a mom wagon yesterday was that she wasn't around. I know I moved off briefly because one of the reasons I FOSed her was low content, but pressure wasn't producing any content so I wanted to use my one vote to turn over other rocks. Meanwhile, Gamma was responding but not in ways that could break exisitng confbias.

I scumread the slot more for all of the inexplicable town reads on her very few (not terribly towny) posts than for her posts, so I question less why she didn't get votes and more why so many people actively defended her.

Actually, it's not just the inexplicable town reads. It's all of the seemingly inexplicable reads thrown around this game, a large portion of which have been regarding momrangal. While reads based on circumstances (like wagon momentum) are sensible, I get very bad feelings about how people seem to find her few posts and much silence indicative any which way, especially when it changes. I will give leeway for those things changing immediately after the flip since quite a bit was predicated on gamma's alignment, but no excuses on day 1.

___

1836 @Gustavo

Nauci = good as in... town? Or a good vote and you think I'm scum with Shoshin? I think it's the latter but don't want to misinterpret.

___

1838

-Irrelephant I wish to try this in a hydra someday. It worked for Meji, after all!

___

1840 @Gustavo

Agree to disagree on 102? I think that calling people out for exclusively fluff/look-busy posts is a very strong scum hunting tactic.

As for 675, my post meant that my scum pile was so large I didn't know where to start, so I picked an arbitrary reason to start there. In addition, putting someone to -2 is good pressure/scum hunting when >4 votes are required for a lynch.

I'm not bothering with links but I never stop turning over rocks day 1. There's plenty of people to stick to momentum wagons but just because there are 4 days (or whatever other number) left doesn't mean there aren't more opportunities to explore other avenues. I end a lot of days on what people like to call vanity votes but I consider them due diligence.

I was extremely unhappy with the Gamma wagon ending the day early and no other people I wanted to vote were even around, so vote parking in hopes that there were posts before ending the day seemed like the sensible option. What alternative do you suggest if you were working with the same premises? Or do you just find my premises "not acceptable"?

Why was it so clear at the start of day 2 that Math had stopped playing? He made repeated posts promising a return.

Also why do you think the TW vote is terrible?

Why is it perfectly okay for you to tell people to stfu and tell us we're all blind and terrible and bullshit and asshats, but not okay for anyone else to be anything but patient and kind to you and sheep all of your viewpoints? This is some narcissistic bullshit right here. There's no reason you couldn't have just asked me for clarifications or pointed out why you thought my votes weren't pro-town without using explicitly sardonic language. This is the shit Irrelephant touched on as well: it makes people not want to interact with you (skitter) or participate in this game (irrelephant). You shower us in condescension yet feel entitled to respect and teamwork (and people seeing things your way). Not only is it just plain irritating to read, it psychologically antithetical to teamwork.

___

1860 @Errant

Oh god I suddenly feel very weird about myself for spending 5 hour chunks on a forum mafia game. What am I even doing with my life excuse me I need to apologize to my boyfriend

___

1881 @momrangal

I mean you can't play the "before I could even get back from VLA" card if you were going to be VLA for long past the deadline... That's a pretty manipulative way to frame that progression.

What do you mean by "betrayed"? Does that imply some sort of sense of "loyalty" and expectation that irrelephant was in your pocket? Why does your point of view have that expectation? (Yeah, what @Shoshin said in 1882.)

___

1889 @momrangal

Now I have no idea what you are or were trying to say.

As of this page I'm still feeling Skitter/Keyser as very town, lean town on Errant and BS, slight TR on Shosin and Gustavo, and and a ??? for most of the rest of the game for either conflicting things or lack of things. I am concerned that I haven't seen much that I want to strongly scumread but I think I'm just being too forgiving.

Besides the individual questions/comments in the above wall, I have these questions/comments:

-

@People who think/thought Skitter is scummy: why?

-Are we all collectively silently deciding to mostly not discuss the lack of night kill because it could be any one of like a dozen reasons? I've never seen a game with this little setup spec. In fact, it's especially weird after Irrelephant spent hours and hours thinking of every game theory possibility, but that was with a semi-open Newbie setup.

-I don't know if this will change in another 10 pages, but I don't feel like I have nearly as much information that would allow me to make reads as I want. Do others feel this way? Because we never really chimed in on Bernie's idea of hypoclaims in a game w/ low information and high eagerness to flip-hypothesize. (I am extremely against any other forms of claims however, even with Math out).

It's fucking 4 AM I have to be up in 3 hours for class. RIP. May not have time to finish this kind of catch up before Sunday. Would y'all prefer I skim the rest and give tl;dr, or do you still want more of these granular thought to text walls for sorting me?

[Nauci]

I didn't realize that the TW wagon fell apart long before I was even paranoid about ending the day too early and unvoting.

Skitter, Irrelephant, Errant, BS: Did you move because your <current vote target> is scummier than tw to you, or because you town read something(s) tw post?

[Nauci]

nauci.......all of those 3 posts of mine are 2 questions of unabashed busywork and one weak shadethrow.
I'd like you to please try and guess the answers to both, and explain what your actual issues with that post are, why you think it's scum motivated and why you think "omgus" is bad + comes from scum!me in this instance

For the first and third, I legitimately want you to answer/explain. I do not know what you are trying to say, and I think town benefits from knowing your answers.

As for the other one:

-OMGUS FOSing is not scum hunting or casing. It's confbias.
-I continue to find that you post reads without providing thought processes and want thought processes. I want to understand why you think your wagon had scum on it besides that they are voting you, and why you townread momrangal previously but threw it away with relative ease today.
-Why do you consider 3 votes on you "pushing a cw this hard," especially when 2 of the 3 also scumread momrangal and created the wagon on day 1?

[Nauci]

I'm used to seeing walls of solving from you fam. not walls of shadethrowing and asking questions with obvious answers. :c

I don't ask questions when the answers are obvious to me (in fact, I apparently answer those questions on Keyser's behalf compulsively).

If I'm asking, I want to know, whether it's because I do not understand, or I want to hear it in your own words (usually the former!).

I'm not sure when you think you've seen me game solve because I rarely have strong game solving posts or opinions in day 1 or 2. Just a shit ton of posts like these walls asking for clarifications and correcting misconceptions and pushing people for more content.

If someone's willing to interact with me I'll push them hard and case them (like with Irrelephant here, or Xiao Long in Mini Normal 1957, or Gorny in Newbie 1828, or Mathblade in Team Mafia Tiebreaker. But this game has neither setup spec to narrow shit down, or scummy people who were around to actually press and respond before I started bootcamp.

But I'm not really giving a shit about how you read

me

. I need you to answer so we can read

you

. I don't think I'm the one who hasn't posted enough alignment indicative content.

[Nauci]

it's really obvious gamestate stuff that I'm sure I've already talked about???

i was a conspicuous cw to mom here.
the fact that {you, skitter, mom} actively read like scumbuddies is like, a fucking honeypot fmpov.
you're also both weakly shading me, ignoring my reads and really clumsily positioning me for a mislynch

I am not easy to mislynch, even if I am kinda only half engaged with this game. sorry to disappoint you but i'm not going to roll over and take this shit.

I have literally been repeatedly asking you to explain your thought processes and scum reads.

Is that how you define "ignoring"?

You realize that I've not even been actively casing you? I've been asking you questions to get more information for half of the game.

You don't answer BV because you want him to ask you questions directly and and succinctly. You don't answer my succinct and direct questions at you because??

Spoiler: This is the collection of The Worst's posts on reading Nauci.

What is Nauci

null

TW who do you think is scum?
if deadline was right now I want some names of who would you lynch and in what order

also interested in your momrangal read, I read it you saying she's NAI and voting my impression was as pressure but then she did content and I haven't seen you respond/update there

you're correct my Mom vote was mostly pressure. her response didn't rock my world so I'm gonna need to spend some time processing it.

kinda not an easy question to answer right now but maybe something like Mom > Gamma > Nauci right now, but my scumreads are currently the slots I also feel the most bland about...which has me realising I'll be deeply boring until I have more time.

Math nsg and skitter are viable scumspects but I have really low interest in pushing either of the 3 currently

I'm in "everyone voting me but Bernie could easily be scum and I don't currently know where to go next" mode. I also don't have time to sort thru them or take the time to analyse Mom's last few posts, but my gut is telling me Nauci is not town here.

So... chill.

I'm like 15 pages of splotchy reading behind but Nauci is not feeling like town!Nauci.

if I was active lurking as scum I'd go closer to the prodge range, as much as I love charismatic spamming it is an awful strat when you want to be townread.

I don't want a 1500 page essay. Simply two or three sentences to say why Nauci isn't town Nauci in your opinion, then I leave you.

so what impressed me about Nauci's playstyle when I was scum vs. her was how transparently conspicuously town she was. she was constantly critical, open minded and worked well with others townies.

she feels less attached and engaged here and I cannot shake the feeling that her posting is pushing an agenda and specific preconceived stances rather than actively forming opinions fluidly as she goes.

if that makes sense??

Despite multiple posts announcing a scumread on me, it takes quite a few people/posts pressing you on what "town!Nauci" means before you explain what it is and why you don't think it is happening.

My question is, how is it not?

Where have I not been transparent? Have I not been constantly critical? I've cased several people and changed my mind after a lot of evaluation on several people (irrelephant, gamma, shoshin), updated my reads very transparently for people who swing back and forth from null (bernie, errant, etc.) and I've kept my reads on several people after repeated evaluation (skitter, keyser). I've clearly been critical of you the whole time.

Have I not worked well with others? Do said others agree here? Would you care to explain where in my 1600 word posts I stay up until 3 AM writing are less engaged than you've seen before?

What agenda do you think I've been pushing? That the most town read people in the game are town, and the people who aren't posting enough should post more? Or like, illuminati takeover of the solar system?

Nauci how do you rate your reads on powerful playstyles generally? do you tunnel as town?

I do not tunnel as town, basically ever. I am literally constantly evaluating new data and if I maintain a view it's because I haven't seen data otherwise.

nauci is probably town too

super interested in why you think this, the nullness of my read on Nauci is like. nibbling at the back of my skull.

what part of the wagon composition is bugging you? note for myself to reconsider this.[/quote]

> calls Gamma and Nauci partners
> Gamma and Nauci start a PL wagon at EOD to avert from Gamwagon

this is almost too good
almost

It's somewhat unclear where the first part happened but I do think the fact that Gamma did that right after I did looked really gross and I quickly unvoted because I was scumreading him (but simultaneously unhappy with his wagon composition).

I see tryhard!Nauci
but no not towntelling

I'll do Nauci>Skitter>Mom I think

@TW I'm not comfortable letting you off though
I thought your play was working with your townreads and get stuff done, so?
You really think skitter nauci are scum duo after you?
Or you think BV and consequently math is now scum for busywork catchup I think they generally do?
Granted I don't like quotewall stuff but BV will take stances and commit to things when he's finished, probably regardless of align

Talk more about your mom read given you were townreading her yesterday

quoting to remind myself to hit u up when I'm not @ a job
gamestate is highly highly consistent with Nauci and skitter being scum with Mom. in retrospect vesides recognising that I shouldn't be lynched she hasn't done a lot. I think I was being stupid yday.

This is the collection of your posts shading me. Almost none of it presents any explanation of your read, and what little is circumstantial and/or outdated. For example, obviously I was not defending scum!Gamma. You went from thinking I was pushing momrangal as a CW to Gamma to pushing you as a cw to Momrangal. Is that plausible to you?

It's lazy and gross to dismiss all of my contributions this game as "no towntelling" and it's worse that you keep saying you've already explained.

[Nauci]

Spoiler: Mathdino Case on The Worst in Open 719

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

-The Worst - not really seeing scum TW

what does scum tw look like?

he looks like town

that's the problem. he can be motivation-read but he also knows i know that since i've gone over his scumgames with him

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

he's VERY good at replicating his town meta

i don't intend to fall for the trap of metaing him again

from his scumgame:

Regardless of alignment I tend to get lazy around power players. But I'd say I play a more tryhard scum game, and definitely a lazier town game if I can get away with it. It's largely not intentional, there's just big battles of personalities which I don't really have the energy to get involved in.

As scum I loathe bussing and try to consider my partner/s as remote possibilities at best. The biggest tell I can see from myself is that I try to adjust my style to suit apparent PRs and conftown as scum while as town, I tend to totally disregard their asses and try to work with "obvtown" or sort "probtown" players

Also. Low key I abhor drawing scum but it happens to me a lot. xD (2:2 finished games on MS and I'm almost policy lynch in a Discord server I play in sometimes because of how often I'm evil)

Lowlight of my year so far: trying to explain my scumgame without softclaiming scum with Not_Mafia

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

VOTE: Math lmfao still at page 20

D1 paranoia here was this is the first time Math hasn't tried to read me by like page 3. I was trying to work out if he had me pinned for a future mislynch but afrer one post (I'll find it if ppl want)

I figured he was just being cautious bc he's underestimated my scum range before.

Lukewarm associatives and WIFOM about how scum!tw would play with town!math after our last game noice

welcome back

- i've literally played 2 games with you? the first time i replaced in and read you by VCA in my first posts. the second time, yeah, i'd seen 2 of your towngames (counting the one i modded) and i figured you were playing it and locked a townread on you.
the bolded is true though. so what exactly are you voting me for?

- that kind of WIFOM logic is also how i got a read on beefster in earthbound (based on how scum!beef would play against me after the last time i lynched him).
so are you voting me for anything other than BoP?

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

You had really good intuition with noticing the bad D1 wagons all around. mutant and Screenplay were easy mislynches, and often are lynchbait in other games. Townhunting is often more important than scumhunting. Problem is I think Espeonage assumed you were scum who already knew they were town.

You nailed Jay and Montosh. Jay really outplayed town with the super convincing roleblocker claim.

the worst, you fully know i think highly of your towngame
and also your scumgame
i just don't believe you think i'm scum here

Subject: Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

1. Stay in the background D1, make smart sounding statements but don't step on any toes. Never be the scummiest person.

2. Broadcast that you're gonna claim PR. Bonus points if you do this as town anyway.

3. Openly push scum wincon without looking like you're trying to. Play dumb at every opportunity. If experienced players are trying to lynch town, defer to them. Bonus BONUS points if they're trying to lynch good town.

4. Get indignant when people try to lynch you. OMGUSing acceptable.

5. Ham it alllll the way up to the point where half your posts are scumclaims while the other half are "townslips" and dumbtells because you're having fun playing scum and you're having fun fucking with town's heads. You're having even more fun when you know you won't get lynched through a PR claim.

sound about right?

Well since I am having a little trouble deciding how to feel about The Worst refusing to respond to any of my questions (any of anyone's questions?), I went to look up a little wisdom. We all are sad Math isn't here and think he's pretty good at reading The Worst, Not_Mafia, and more, right? So here's Math's posts casing TW from our game. And some quotes from TW on his own scum play from somewhere else.

I'll let y'all decide for yourselves if this stuff applies here because I don't want to confbias, I only want to provide evidence. I have to go find some The Town games but preferably when it's not 6 AM.

[Nauci]

you actually sound actively frustrated here which has like thrown a curve ball fmpov

but this is 100% a playstyle issue. you get what's on my mind when it occurs to me and a snippet of where I'm at if you ask for it. it sounds like what I'm giving isn't enough for you but I have 0 interest in typing walls out regardless of the potential benefits.

I'm really happy for you that you have a hobby you're so passionate about that you're driven to stay up until 3am posting about it but what. I'm meant to give you a free townread over it? you don't like my stance because I'm not going "OH EFFORT NAUCI YAY TOWN"?

back awwfff

AGAIN: I. Don't. Care. What. Your. Read. Of. Me. Is. I have no problem posting the kind of content that lets everyone else sort me.

YOU

don't get a free townread for

not

posting or saying "I already answered that" "I refuse to answer" "it's hard to be engaged" "your questions need to be more succinct" "the answers are obvious."

[Nauci]

ok that's fine

why are we yelling at each other again?

Maybe because every time I've asked you a question, you refused to answer every single time, and accused me of everything from ignoring you, to asking "wonky" questions, to throwing a tantrum about the exact thing I *just* said wasn't what I'm posting about? I mean you're making misrepresentations I explicitly debunked in advance in the very posts you're misrepresenting.

But I'm not really giving a shit about how you read

me

. I need you to answer so we can read

you

. I don't think I'm the one who hasn't posted enough alignment indicative content.

VOTE: the worst

[Nauci]

If I knew you were town I’d still policy lynch you. You’ve lied and been uncooperative which means I can’t trust you to cooperate with me later when it’s more useful.

Twice I made great posts that show you are scum and you didn’t even try to defend yourself. Town defend themselves from false accusations, scum try and ignore them and hope others do as well.

Plus that whole scum/town thing that somebody else pointed out was spot on. You trying to shade my predecessor as doing the same when it never happened is just more shade throwing. When asked about it you again just tried to ignore it instead of supporting your claim.

This isn’t a town mindset and if people can’t see that idk what else to do

Okay, so what is your opinion of page 87?

[Nauci]

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

I am out of snacks and would appreciate if you stopped summoning a craving for Skittles.

(I'll assume that you cased Skitter in the 10 pages I haven't read yet, for now.)

[Nauci]

oh no not a scum vote
anything but a scum vote

[Nauci]

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Scumread of me is new I think? Where’d that come from?

Where’d your other scumreads (for example on Mom) go?

This game was easier with only 1 Meji

[Nauci]

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

Scumread of me is new I think? Where’d that come from?

Where’d your other scumreads (for example on Mom) go?

This game was easier with only 1 Meji

Okay I ammend that statement to "more fun"

But we rather demonstrated that Meji-style is pro-scum, eh, old chap?

[Nauci]

I mean yes but also I don’t know what your point is here?

My frustration with the game correlates with the number of gif replies I make

it was just a bit of banter commiserating on the game state

[Nauci]

Comments + in depth responses to BV's questions:

Spoiler: Oh christ did I really just spend all of that time responding to a single page (77)

VOTE: Key

I really don't like the worst's response to BV.

___

Yesterday, bernie hammered gamma and i thought i saw the reason for it being something about me being flash lynched while V/LA yesterday.

Today, knowing im V/LA he makes a push for it before i even come back from said V/LA

though towards the end, it was partially a matter that he was claimed VT and I was slightly worried of an certain outside risk of deadline flash wagon momrangal VLA even if I scumread her more).

Yeah here.

I dont understand why he would be worried if he scum read me.

Further more, this proves he's aware of my V/La and the fact that he pushed be knowing i couldnt respond.

Also, if he was worried of the flash wagon, why wouldnt he be still worried of it considering i was still V/LA

Well we were no longer 24 hours from deadline, so...
___

Not_Mafia who did you try to shoot last night?

Was this a joke about scumreading Not Mafia or did I miss something

___

My rule of thumb that I absolutely don't vouch for is that, when heavily pressured, scum!tw becomes exponentially more dodgy/bullshitter, and slightly more serious as town. (based on one game w/ him and skimming a couple of others)

Why reveal this before you have a chance to see what he's like under pressure? Even if he's not pressured immediately, there's a chance he would be at some point. Edit: Just read 675 where you call it a placebo effect. Why can't he act serious if he's scum and gets pressured if he knows that's what you're expecting?

Like I said in that post though: being aware of placebo affect doesn't affect placebo affect. I don't think that he could change his style enough even if I called it out. But I mostly post because I tend to be ultra transparent with my reaction/catch up posts and don't consider this kind of game theory.

578, 583 I post this kind of crap when I'm unmotivated scum so it's hard not to read it this way

Would you mind linking me to places where you've said this as scum.

One game is from a private forum elsewhere but in Newbie 1863 I did it several times. At first I fell behind because I was in the hospital again but after I got better something like posts #44 onward in my ISO were dodging or otherwise excuses for not reading the game closely. I've linked it somewhere in my ISO here.

I generally gives 0 fucks about how I'm perceived in the game. If I am challenged on a specific thing or if someone has misinterpreted something I said, I'll address that. Otherwise, I just endeavor to town harder.

This pinged. This is a game of perceptions and to do well as town, you need to read people correctly and be read correctly. "I give zero fucks about how I'm perceived" feels like bravado/putting up a front. The most content you've written about anyone in your readslist is yourself (tied with Irrelephant) which is also odd for someone who doesn't care about how they are perceived.

I actually don't like anything you've written under the heading of yourself. Why give bullet-points when you don't like self-meta?

Okay thank you this gives me room for clarifications what I mean when I keep saying that I don't care how I'm read.

I specifically mean that:

-How I am read does not impact the way I think about others and read the game on a personal level. I'm not going to scramble and panic trying to think of ways to look more town to appease people. I'm not going to scumread people for scumreading me.

I will evaluate people's reads of me as if they were reads of anyone else: does their train of thought make sense from their perspective. I have a history of demonstrating this so my votes for people voting me don't need to be taken with as big a grain of salt as some others on the site.

I don't like self-meta as in I don't like when I read people's self meta, because it's super unreliable. But since not everyone shares that opinion, I provided some on myself, and with as many links as possible so it's something they can discover for themselves (made logistically easier) instead of taking my word for it.

I'm extremely capable of separating someone's read of me with my evaluation of the circumstances of how they read me as if it was any other player and their content.

What's the point of saying this?

See above.

I will get exhaustibly pedantic to correct a misconception so try not to make any or I will be here arguing w/ you on it for 9 pages.

It's well within your control to not argue with people for 9 pages if you don't think it's alignment-indicative so I don't see the point of this either. Obviously if do think it's alignment-indicative, then it's a good lead and not just being pedantic.

In the Mafia Tiebreaker game, Sky_Paladin repeatedly made statements that I thought were unbelievably wrong. He was the other loudest poster and driving much of the momentum of the game so I thought it was very important to correct his misreads. But pages and pages of correcting him later I still thought he was town, and just very wrong and very stubborn. I think it's critical that town operates on a shared set of facts before we draw opinions, and it ended up making the difference between lynching scum and lynching the person he was misreading.

How do you reconcile your stance of not sheeping with using TheWorst's vouch of Bernie as part of your reason to townread Bernie?

Sheeping = taking someone's word for it and assuming their stance

I took TW's read as a data point (among other data points).

___

Man, TW"s reactions to BV posts are truly heinous.

___

@BV

: TW on Gemini

[Nauci]

Everyone should probably either vote momrangal or at minimum respond to my points on her.

AFTER seeing the new momrangal responses, I feel approximately what you felt here =>

Momr I think might be scum now. half hearted nauci wagon join when she had way more reason to do me i dont like or understand. view on gamma and concern feels fake and even kinda excusatory. I get the impression she magicks reads because when she talks or responds to other people about her reads shes just like boring justifying and explaining and not like reconsidering doubting but also still not really like town explaining their thoughts. lack of emotion but also I feel like she doesn't try to convince or care if her explanations make an impact if that makes sense?

___

Hell even in general I think looking to lockdown and call out fullteam distracts given if you have 2 scum but misread town as a third it potentially detracts from the whole thing and that approach you end up focusing on the people you feel least strongly and picking between them for a game of who is partner spec rather than actually pushing lynching most likely scum

Agreed.

I don't find that scum teams on this site really do all that much interaction/coordination outside of game ending hammering and trying to read into relationships is often like tea leaves. The first time I was scum here I wrote a huge wall of plans and strategies and whatever only to see my partner replaced out for inactivity, then the replacement replaced out for inactivity as well. Scum PTs I've read (besides Irrelephant and I's) were pretty sparse. There's a few player based behaviors that can be analyzed post flip, like the worst and irrelephant generally preferring to not bus if possible, but until we get more concrete info it's art, not science.
___

Alright I'm getting distracted. I don't think we have good odds of hitting scum off-Gamma-wagon, unless anyone has reason to specifically think more scum were offwagon than on.

VOTE: the worst,

this is L-2

Honestly think Not_Mafia has good odds to be scum here too, but it's hard to make a case for obvious reasons

I still don't understand why you would think there are more scum on than off wagon. Scum tend to let town mislynch while bussing the kind of inevitable wagons Gamma had, but more importantly that kind of thing can only be evaluated if the game circumstances are considered, and it's a rather unique situation where half of the wagon was afk so it was a rubbish push but enough people off wagon scumread Gamma that they had some sort of smokescreen. It's more important to think about that kind of influence than the statistics. I agree it's unlikely that all scum are on or all off, but the 1/2 debate remains to be seen.

___

He can towntell pretty hard with this playstyle. He just hasn't this game

He didn't when he was pressured. He didn't when the pressure eased up. He has decided that NOT doing so is the hill he will die on when pressed more.

ttyl

[Nauci]

Okay, so what is your opinion of page 87?

I haven’t read it in depth, what am I supposed to be looking for?

teach us your ways of town teamwork, wise sensei

[Nauci]

I'm going to hard pull the BoP card and ask people to stop speccing PR and NK stuff anymore today, and I think I have to insist on mom today over duck. Nauci irrelephant I'm sorry but despite the meta thing I think my experience makes my judgment here more reliable.

Where I'm voting at any given time is usually a subset of people I'm okay with lynching

but we're so far from end of day that I'm not seeing why this is an issue versus pursuing appropriate avenues

[Nauci]

There are lots of pages I have to read that was missed while on v/la. Asking me to comment on page 87 without reading the pages before that is kind of hard. I need context that I don’t have. I’ve been skimming while on vacation.

For instance I misread bv’s post. I thought he said my vote today was bad. He was referring to day 1 on gamma. None of the active posters even pointed that out to me which pings me. Why didn’t somebody correct me?

Let me sit down and read tomorrow with my AC is being worked on and I’ll have more time. I’ve been on vacation since the 3rd.

I didn't ask you to skip everything and just read 87. Just tell me what your thoughts are once you get there.

I haven't read up to BV's post about you yet and I assume that both of us will get to the recent topics as we get there.

[Nauci]

I've said a lot today, and I'm not sure there's a ton more information to be gathered fmpov, so I'm ready for a flip and more useful information.

I am extremely not ready for this until BV is done with 500+ more posts and counting

And I have 8 pages to go but can't get to it until after class and projects, which might be tomorrow night

There's plenty of room for mom or BV or even my interactions left in the day. I haven't even put on my casing gloves

[Nauci]

Not majoring in anything (dropped out of Carnegie Mellon Computer Science ages ago).

I'm in a programming bootcamp 10 hours a day with 3-6 hours of homework, and I've been trying to catch up on sick days. Missing one day is like missing several weeks of a class at college

[Nauci]

UNOFFICIAL Votecount Record Day 2

Momrangal (4) -

Bernie Sanders #1660

,

Irrelephant11 #1662

,

skitter30 #1663

,

Bernie Sanders

#1893[/size],

skitter30

#1947[/size],

northsidegal/Errantparabola

#1953[/size],

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2073[/size],

Irrelephant11 #2081

,

Irrelephant11 #2212

GeminiTwin12/the worst (2) -

skitter30 #1627

,

Nauci #1768

,

northsidegal/Errantparabola #1770

,

skitter30 #1776

,

Bernie Sanders #1839

,

Irrelephant11 #1936

,

Keyser Soze

#2109[/size],

Nauci

#2175[/size],

Irrelephant11 #2201

Keyser Soze (1) -

Shoshin #1629

,

stungun0404/Gustavo #1674

,

Shoshin

#1928[/size],

Irrelephant11 #2100

stungun0404/Gustavo (1) -

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

#2010[/size]

Shoshin (1) -

stungun0404/Gustavo #1695

,

stungun0404/Gustavo

#1783[/size]

Invisibility/Not_Mafia -

Irrelephant11 #1692

Bernie Sanders (0) -

None

Nauci -

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1826

northsidegal/Errantparabola -

None

skitter30 -

Shoshin #1784

,

Irrelephant11 #1910

MathDino/BlackVoid -

Nauci

#1638

[/size]

Irrelephant11 -

None

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) -

Shoshin #1927

,

Nauci #2055

,

Irrelephant11

#2213[/size]

Vote Record By Player Day 2

Spoiler:

Momrangal

- None

GeminiTwin12/the worst

-

Nauci #1826

,

Momrangal

#2073

Keyser Soze

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2109

stungun0404/Gustavo

-

Keyser Soze #1674

,

Shoshin #1695

,

Shoshin

#1783

Shoshin

-

Keyser Soze #1629

,

skitter30 #1784

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting #1927

,

Keyser Soze

#1928

Invisibility/Not_Mafia

-

stungun0404/Gustavo

#2010

Bernie Sanders

-

Momrangal #1660

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1839

,

Momrangal

#1893

Nauci

-

MathDino/BlackVoid #1638

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1768

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting #2055

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst

#2175

northsidegal/Errantparabola

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1770

,

Momrangal

#1953

skitter30

-

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1627

,

Momrangal #1663

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1776

,

Momrangal

#1947

MathDino/BlackVoid

- None

Irrelephant11

-

Momrangal #1662

,

Invisibility/Not_Mafia #1692

,

skitter30 #1910

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #1936

,

Momrangal #2081

,

Keyser Soze #2100

,

GeminiTwin12/the worst #2201

,

Momrangal #2212

,

UNVOTE/Not Voting

#2213

UNVOTE/Not Voting

-

[Nauci]

The perpetual catchup stalling strats.

Nooooooo you stole my pagetop

[Nauci]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

@insanity, fair enough. I kept trying to stay in the game because I wanted to make this big, pro-town catchup post full of in-depth reads and then go from there but it really never panned out. The longer it took, the more I felt like I was in this game long enough without posting so felt obligated to catchup. Also, yeah I shouldn't have replaced in. I thought I could handle a short game. What I didn't realize was how content-dense it was even with a low page count. I certainly apologize to both you guys and the town.

Are you my smurf account

@insanity, fair enough. I kept trying to stay in the game because I wanted to make this big, pro-town catchup post full of in-depth reads and then go from there but it really never panned out. The longer it took, the more I felt like I was in this game long enough without posting so felt obligated to catchup. Also, yeah I shouldn't have replaced in. I thought I could handle a short game. What I didn't realize was how content-dense it was even with a low page count. I certainly apologize to both you guys and the town.

I ended up spending my catchup time filing human rights violation reports to the UN for an Egyptian activist though

I learned from that game that my catch ups should be incremental

[Nauci]

Oops I meant to link this

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10184714

Doesn't matter sorry for fluff posts

[Nauci]

Gustavo can you please respond to this, or maybe let me know that you're going to later? I'd like to know why you are no longer scumreading Bernie or Keyser, and whether or not you scumread me (& if so, why).

I don’t town read you. I’m good with day 1 policy lynches.

Sho/skittles/nauci are my current scum reads. I don’t have good feelings about you or Bernie.

Though I’m kind of annoyed right now. Not a single person scum reads the scummiest person in the game yet nobody can explain what about this behavior makes him town.

Maybe you just haven't read those explanations, or refuse to acknowledge they exist, or we live in parallel universes where some parts of this mafia game are a crossover event

[Nauci]

Spoiler: @skitter

I have paranoid thoughts about BV; can you answer a couple of questions?

Do you remember how he treated his partners in his scum games?

Did he also post granular thought processes in those games?

[Nauci]

I guess I'll go investigate for myself this weekend.

[Nauci]

What I mean about 414 and 547 is that those interpretations don't make any sense from a town perspective (as you said, he blatantly misinterprets you), they only make sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about (e.g. in your case, that interpretation only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows math is town).

I have contorted myself into a pretzel trying to see this POV but still can't

[Nauci]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

I think you don't see it because you're reading the post as if it's about you when it's probably not - the more likely explanation for 547 is that Key read Math's posts knowing that Math was town, so he couldn't imagine any other response to Math other than an apology. You could say he was pocketing Math, because I just don't see how else he arrives at his interpretation.

It's the same thing in 414 ("Mom came back with a bang" doesn't make sense unless he was already pre-inclined to read Mom as town, either because they're partnered or because he knows Mom is town).

Mom wasn't ever under much pressure, so I disagree about that. The moment Mom turned into a potential counterwagon (when Key voted her), Bernie immediately switched his vote to Gamma. So, yeah, if Mom flips scum, that's something worth looking at more closely. But otherwise, I don't see any sort of counterwagon that drove scum to vote Gamma.

I just saw it from the interpretation that lots of us who have played with Math show him a lot of deference, and Skitter was the same way, and Keyser called out that social dynamic essentially. After Math dunked on TW so hard for the game solve, I have a lot of deference to his authority too (pending his alignment, obviously).

And "mom came back with a bang" was a pretty natural hyperbole for "mom went from crappy posts and lurking to making a post with real opinions," IMO.

I do agree that there was no pressure for scum to vote Gamma when so much of the town was happy to "inevitability"-lynch there, but I'm not sure if it means that there actually aren't 2 scum on the wagon.

[Nauci]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

See

2235

[Nauci]

Nauci, can you explain why you're townreading Key?

Because in his extensive posting I have seen transparency, scum hunting, careful analysis, and reactions which I both empathized with and thought were natural for town to have.

I think that you scumreading him is based on differences in personality and therefore difficulty in understanding his POV but that he hasn't done anything scummy as far as I know.

[Nauci]

@Bernie

While I was previously suspicious of Mom and TW's slot equally, the former is at least willing to engage with us a bit more and make it easier to understand her state of mind as time goes on.

Based on the last few days of posts from TW, I firmly think that he will be no more cooperative and has at this point no interest in elucidating his POV or scumhunting. He's refusing to answer questions (and not just from me), dismissing people's effort posts, unable to explain why he hated BV and now my posts but not skitter's (which did not probe him for answers much), and not casing any of his scum reads beyond telling us that they are scummy, and saying that asking him why just demotivates him.

I find it a stronger priority to go there at the moment, but I'm not done exploring all possibilities, as I still need to do a deeper investigation on mom, bv, and irrelephant.

[Nauci]

orly

v/la until end of game

guess who's lynchproof

I'm not letting you be VLA the rest of the game

sorry--just confirming this was a shitpost

Oh I think I misunderstood this. Was "this" directed at Skitter's post?

[Nauci]

I usually read my town reads with significantly more paranoia in previous games, but haven't in this one specifically because the town reads I so grokked in previous ones always turned out to be town. I'm not sure if I am in serious need of reconsidering the Skitter/Keyser/Shosh/BS pile, hmm.

[Nauci]

Wait shit the pages I read contained some PR shit?!

Okay I'll have to go re-evaluate everything

[Nauci]

Key, do you have any games as scum / town?

Yes, I’ve played around 15-20 games on Mafiascum.

Can you link your games as scum?

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

I sadly cannot help you right now as I am busy reading Momrangel's posts.

How hard is it for you to find your scum games and post the links?

The Momrangel slot demands my complete attention and full focus.

This may be a pivotal moment in the game.

The fuck is this shit; it takes like 30 seconds to link previous games

[Nauci]

I don't understand your appeal to Mom. You think Mom would rather be lynched than see you lynched?

Lynch or not, I'd say that it's pretty factual that Keyser has put more effort into the game than momrangal, no? We can disagree on if that effort translates into "town points."

___

I believe BS will be a hard player to lynch...

Can you explain why you said this?

___

The two derails involving Keyser are fucking dumb, but I'm not sure what they mean alignment wise.

-Linking your own scumgames is faster than us clicking all of your games and looking for which ones you were scum in
-Not linking them is being unhelpful and "prioritizing mom" is a stupid excuse because in the time it has taken you to post 6x defensively on this you could have linked them already
-Not linking them is not so indicative of "hiding" because the data is still there

-Why wouldn't you vote NM? =/= NM IS SCUM

Why are so many people in this jeezeless game being so difficult

[Nauci]

Catch up through p91.

Let it slide for now I guess.

Sorry I'm slightly confused on what "it" was referring to here.

@Bernie

can you elucidate?

___

Speaking of two term presidents, Grover Cleveland is both the 22nd and 24th American President and is the only President to serve two non-consecutive terms.

Grover Cleveland also basically married his adopted daughter! He bought her a crib as a baby and then basically was her adoptive father at age 11 and then started dating her at like 18 or 19! Good times.

Totally serious and should be considered real warning to Nauci for possibly stealing a factoid from me. (I actually did not know this, though) -brass

___

Oh fuck I mentally noted TW's post about being the NK target as shenaniganry but just mentally connected that as some weird soft PR shit with what Math said is his MO (definitely as scum, possibly while also as town)

___

@Keyser

was your entire scum read of me "paranoia"? Was there more meat to it? You've discussed your other scumreads but I don't think you explained this one beyond paranoia due to irrelephant/tw posts?

___

@Irrelephant

who are your town reads right now, and how strong are they?

___

@BV

I made the vote counter because A: I wanted to have one because I have a hard time following vote patterns and because B: people were saying wall posts were bogging down the game so I thought I'd do something probably more helpful. Also I just have a penchance for doing programmatic stuff and started a bootcamp the day after \o/

Also most of my self meta is to pre-empt stuff I've previously dealth with that I would be erroneously scumread for. I don't think I make a lot of "I'd never/only do this as scum" but rather "I do this as either alignment so it's a dumb thing to scumread me for"?

I post my own tl;dr *with links to games* so people can verify my assertions and make it easier to read me by meta. Which I *do* think is a reliable way for others to read me. "I always do this" vs "I do this and here are 7 places I did so" are very different kinds of information.

I'm surprised that you think Skitter and I are that different. We've had different thoughts, but every time I read her reactions I feel like they're either ones that I've already made, or ones that I extremely understand. It's an even closer mind-meld than I had with Bellaphant in Team Mafia Tiebreaker, except I'm not paranoid about her alignment like I was with Bellaphant *because* of Bella being town. Like if you were to go through Skitter and I's posts in "real time" (as in matching my reactions to the same posts skitter was responding to, even if later), you'd see a ton of overlap.

___

@Shoshin

I think that *everything* Scumrelephant did was calculated, and his votes especially. He was opportunistic, but never blatantly so, and will try to run a wagon up on a player he considers threatening to scum if given the opportunity, as well as fall in line with a popular wagon without the greatest of reasons if necessary, including flip flopping. So don't let Irrelephant sheep without providing perspective,

ever

. I don't think Scumrrelephant would dare to start any wagons, but I'm not sure if Townrrelephant would either and will need to go read his town game. I do think Scumrrelephant is fairly reluctant to succumb to momentous town reads on formerly easy mislynches though, once he has declared a scum read on someone,

unless it's his partner

.

Lol Irrelephant. Correct in 2144

___

@Gustavo

I don't see a case from you on Skitter. Why do you scumread her?

As to the programming question, language doesn't really matter? Like there are 50 follow up questions I have for how that would work like how you know when the data is updated and you'd probably have to setup some backend magic dependingon the answer to that quesiton, but it really doesn't matter what language you're using for the backend stuff or the frontend display/app except which platform you want for the app?

___

Every time I read more Keyser posts with a "hmm don't confbias him being town" I came away thinking he was town through day 1 and his analysis of various players at the beginning of day 2. Halfway through day 2 I have a few reasons to pull him towards null and into the "read meta then reevalluate" pile but it really wasn't until the stuff mentioned in my last post.

___

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

-_- Again,

@mom

, today your V/LA did not extend to deadline so pressuring you when you would be back to actually read and engage (...or

choose

not to) is completely different. This is grasping at straws for reasons to make him look bad.

___

Looks like very few people have read/engaged with my catch ups so far even though I bolded names to make them easier to engage with :<

[Nauci]

You were combative when you didn’t need to be.

[Nauci]

Holy fuck, Gustavo. I didn't lie. And everyone in the game agrees with me, not you. You're just blinded by your own arrogance. And you're the one who has been needlessly combative from your very first question to me. Everyone in this game agrees with me, and if it weren't for Stun, lots of people wouldn't even townread you.

But whatever. I'm pretty tired of this, so fuck it, I'm just gonna claim because I'd rather have you invested in the game in a meaningful way.

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

I voted him today to see if I could tease out some reactions from scum. Then I decided to stop doing that because it was obviously pissing Gustavo off. I didn't think he'd actually abandon the wagon on Key because of my prodding but I guess he's obsessed with me to the point of still harping on all this lying bullshit.

And with that, I'll probably die tonight. Which is okay with me, I'm getting burned out from mafia anyway.

Now, Gustavo, stop talking about me and reevaluate the game please. I actually want your input and want you invested in this.

Hooooly shit

I don't even know how I would process this

Why on earth would <a very large number of things that I now don't understand>

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Nauci]

So if you are town. You were combative when you didn’t need to be. You blatantly misrepped (lied) about your play last game (I proved this true), and you claimed doctor when you were under no threat of being lynched.

Yeah don’t worry if I’m wrong about you, I’ll never play with you again.

That said, I don’t think I’m wrong about you. It doesn’t matter though cause nobody is lynching you.

I will say that if you were town, there is no way scum would kill me so your story is definitely not believable. You as town were more likely the person to be killed.

Why would scum kill me unless my reads were right. If they are right you are scum

So, technically speaking, it's possible that scum(including scumshoshin) failed to skill gustavo for whatever reason, and Shoshin is claiming doctor because of the failed NK in hopes of either giving her conftown status OR baiting out an actual PR claim

But @Shoshin, what kinds of reactions were you hoping to provoke?

@Game, how many TPR would a 13 player normal usually have? 1-3?

[Nauci]

Well then between TW trying to soft claim and Shoshin hard claiming

I say we lynch TW

Especially since that is a classic Scum Worst meta play

However, I think that >1TPR in a 13 player game is totally plausible, AND I do put forth the idea that scum chose to not kill anyone night 1, bonus points for if irrelephant is scum!

Still finishing the last few pages but I have a growing gut feeling that irrelephant is scum and am currently working on gathering notes for that

[Nauci]

Based on the wiki, if scum has a PR, probably 3. If not, probably 1

can you link me that page I couldn't find it TIA

[Nauci]

@Irrelephant what are your thoughts on BV

[Nauci]

I just browse the setups in my free time and that's the pattern I've noticed

Fineee I'll put work into reading BV
I've mostly been ignoring him because I townleaned math and he scumreads me and that makes me want to scumread him because I'm apparently bad at disassociating. I'll get back to you soon

I couldn't even figure out why you TR Math so this one I especially want to know! I'll hold off my opinions of you until then I suppose!

[Nauci]

Irrelephant I wish you would stop saying you're voting mom because Bernie told you to.

Skirting responsibility like that is gross and also when did you turn into a Bernie Bro anyway

Also,

@everyone

, would it be useful for Shoshin to announce a doctor target for tonight? Or would that be somehow bad, on the off chance that scum would target someone other than the claimed, widely town read, interrogating-everyone doctor?