Newbie 1744 - Game Over

[Toto]

VOTE: Kaladin

If that is the same Kaladin from Stormlight Archive, then he is too altruistic to play this game under any circumstances.

[Toto]

I'm voting the IC until we get an IC post explaining basic mechanics. Only scum!IC would want to cause this kind of mayhem early game. (yes, I'm kind of joking, but seriously, would be nice)

VOTE: Spy

(also I just realized I have no idea what the VC is, so mod, please don't lynch IC if this is the lynching vote).

[Toto]

What's a VI?

[Toto]

Nice...

This game is boring so far. I propose the following strategy:

Let's lynch Frank and see if he turns scum. If he does we lynch humansequencer, and we go home.
Otherwise on day two we lynch Gideon who is overly-defending Spy. If that doesn't work, then I propose we lynch Jason for being an idiot on day 3.

We can also adapt the strategy along the way!

Who is with me?

[Toto]

What about gideon was actually defending me and from what?

He was pretty upset you were being voted by two people in page 1. I think frank just quoted that post.

Why would you lynch frank first?

Double suspicious of him because of the wall.

Why do you have no opinion about the giant walls or the parties involved?

Yep. Both of them are included in the strategy. You have to admit it is close to perfect!

[Toto]

actually I forgot about copper. I'll think about the strategy.

[Toto]

Surprise! Not I!

Sure, I might be a little biased about your Day 1 lynch pick. BUT my real reason is your plan is perplexing/hectic.
I've read scum like to create confusion, so how about a plan that's a little easier to follow?

Just my two cents.

Why are you still voting for spy?

I don't have a reason to move my vote yet, and don't see a point to unvoting.

What's so complex about my plan? It has a day by day guide!

I understand your unwillingness to follow it, though. What do you suggest we do instead?

[Toto]

Aww you guys think I'm posting walls? *blush*

Dont give me so much credit.

Nope, wall and insults I could not follow were generated by copper and jason respectively. That's why I wanted to lynch Jason on day 3 for good measure.

Sorry for the wrong accusation.

[Toto]

I highlighted the important part.

Nope, wall and insults I could not follow were generated by copper and jason respectively. That's why I wanted to lynch Jason on day 3 for good measure.

Sorry for the wrong accusation

.

Why would you lynch frank first?

Double suspicious of him because of the wall.

Help me understand this.

[Toto]

Of course I'm not serious about the full plan! Are you crazy? I just wanted to get the ball rolling.

I was serious about VI. About the VC, I was reasonably sure it would not kill anyone, also someone told me telling that to the mod would work. Apparently it doesn't, so don't try this at home.

And since you asked, I'm not scum. Are you scum? (not sure if this is going to help us).

Look, if you are feeling flustered about my plan to lynch you today, we can always lynch HumanSequencer instead. What do you think?

VOTE: HumanSequencer

[Toto]

I'm worried by Toto. He makes several accusations against Frank, but then doesn't vote him, and instead votes Human. Seems to me that he's making this up as he goes. Innocent men don't lie.

VOTE: Toto

What do you think about HumanSequencer lying about why he asked frank how long he's been playing. Innocents dont lie, right?

[Toto]

Otherwise on day two we lynch Gideon who is overly-defending Spy.

Oh, now I see the concern with my defense of Spy. Forgive me, this is my first game, I was confused why somebody was being lynched randomly. Now, it may be my first game, but I'm not stupid. If I were mafia the smart thing to do would be to distance myself from him. I'm not doing that, am I?

Unless this is your first game and you, not understanding how RVS works, were worried your scum partner got two votes for no reason, leaving you alone to deal with the rest of us. I can see how it could happen both ways (you!town or you!scum). If you are scum, it doesn't mean you are stupid, it just means you are new.

[Toto]

You know. Telling me that defeats the whole purpose. Are you sure you just want to see how I react under pressure? or you just want to get me closer to a lynch?

[Toto]

@Human: Well my whole argument (albeit weak) on Frank&You is that, as you point out, you are scum partners. I don't really have anything else than that so lynching one or the other "made sense". I hadn't thought about it in much detail as you because that was not my actual plan. I just wanted to get a few reactions. Like what would frank say about lynching you, for example. That's why I changed the target. And more importantly, I wanted to hear what other people would say. We can always lynch one of you as a last resource. So lynching you now doesn't make sense.

My case is Gideon+Spy on actually also weak. Mostly was a reaction test, which I'm now convinced he passed. Especially due to the fact that he doesn't seem to understand why I changed my vote to you.

What I was looking for here with this (my evil plan to kill everyone) is actually scum trying to get advantage of my dire situation, and the 3rd vote, for a stupid reason, is rather suspicious.

VOTE: TownCop

[Toto]

Ok, keep the heat on me then? Either way, TownCop is scum.

[Toto]

You know. Telling me that defeats the whole purpose. Are you sure you just want to see how I react under pressure? or you just want to get me closer to a lynch?

Well that's the way I've seen it done in previous mafia games - people say that they are reaction testing.

Bad excuse. You don't say you are about to reaction test someone. You do it after the fact. Like me.

[Toto]

@copper: see the reason for putting me at L-2. Also, statistically the 3rd vote is more likely to be scum. Specially with a bad reason.

[Toto]

TownCop. I'm not suspicious to your will to reaction test me. It is suspicious that your excuse for voting me is "I want to see how he reacts under pressure". Which doesn't make any sense. Because if that's what you really wanted you would not say that.

So that means you are voting me for another reason.

Also a 3rd vote is non-committing. Safe. If I get lynched "is not your fault". You didn't start it, and you didn't finish it. Perfect for scum.

@copper: on me over posting. I think the problem in this game is the underposting from other people.
@copper: I guess the newb card on 'I've seen it in other games' does weaken my case.

Still, the only reads I have are:

1) HS+Frank: for the "scumslip" early on.
2) Gideon+Spy: for Gideon "protecting him" (I'm less convinced of this). Gideon is acting as newbtown. I think.
3) TownCop + ???: for the suspicious vote on me. (I have a strong, albeit debilitating, gut feeling I caught scum here)

[Toto]

What you are doing here however is scum hunting by association, that is a very dangerous thing to do because you are looking for and finding tells about a player that assume the alignment of a second one to justify the case, when you don't know if that's true.

While I generally can see how this type of hunting can be more difficult my only reads so far (except for TownCop) happen to be suspicious associative displays. I wish I had more to give you. I blame the lack of content.

[Toto]

@Human. Since you say there is a lot of content. Why don't you give me a read list.

@Gideon. You don't seem to be asking questions, and you seem to also want someone (i.e. me) to die today.

[Toto]

You didn't have to say that last part. Now I have a bad image of how my lynch could have developed.

[Toto]

So.... what's the plan now?

[Toto]

I already explained my reads. I'm not sure what you mean by my accident. I'm not trying to make anyone look scummy. I'm trying to find scum. I have a large target audience since I don't know who is scum or town yet and I think that got me into trouble.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself for a while from now until I have something more concrete and hear what other people have to say.

p-edit. I'm not saying that means you are both scum. But it is an interesting signal and the only real signal we had at that point in time. Even HS agrees it was kind of a bad thing to say.

[Toto]

@Toto
What was a bad thing for me to say? Please be more specific.

The whole thing about the "Scumslip". Basically the fact that you:

(1) Asked frank, and exclusively Frank, how long he's been playing in your first post.
Then (2) Told Spy, when he asked you about this, that you did this because he had posted before in the thread (when he actually had not posted anything yet).

[Toto]

@Toto
Oh, that. Well, I've already addressed the mistake I made

Yeah, that's what I was trying to tell Frank, sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Toto]

Also I verified if HS was telling the truth about Frank being eager to play in the sign-up thread and that pans out.

Okay, I guess that was easier than what I tried to do.

[Toto]

Spy. What do you think of my wagon? If you assume Im town what chances are there is one scum in it?

[Toto]

Gideon is really set on killing me. So I have a hard time admitting he does look town.

[Toto]

HS. Random question, why didn't you RVS on your first post?

[Toto]

Gideon. I'm not mafia. Spy probably isn't either. You don't look self-incriminating. You look confused.

[Toto]

Guys, can we lynch towncop and copper and /in into the next game please?

[Toto]

So,

Just to explain things a little bit. The case on TownCop is already damning. But I'm actually more concerned about Copper

You, see. I didn't pay attention to the first post in this game.

VOTE: TownCop
You Sir, are clearly fake claiming .

HumanSequencer did. And they were trying to hide an innocent question with other question which got her into trouble in their first post.

By itself, it looks rather petty argument. But everything fits so well.

It explains why Copper was so kind in driving the conversation on my lynch. He would not want me to just get lynched while yelling his partner is Scum. At least not without first getting some town cred, and telling everyone to not try to hunt by association, in case TownCop got lynched on D2.

It also explains why Copper went from telling one person he doesn't like Village Idiots to helping the ultimate Village Idiot / Scum in the group so far.

So, copper, what do you think about lynching TownCop? should we leave you the honors?

[Toto]

If TC is scum I'd say there's a very decent chance his buddy is SB.

Why SB?

[Toto]

The player I'd be willing to be the game on being town is HS for me

Explain this for me. Why are you so convinced?

[Toto]

@TC. Tell me why SB is scum.

[Toto]

While we wait for TC answers,

@Spy: in 21 you promised to reveal a mystery in page 1. Also, in 123 you promised meaningful content.

And one more IC question, are you scum?

[Toto]

@Spy. The two thing are unrelated. I was bored and nobody is posting. I'm not calling you out, just wanted to know when that will happen. Simple curious. Specially the comment on 21

[Toto]

TownCop. I think Snow is town. If you assume that, how does it change your reads.

[Toto]

LMAO. sorry. must be your avatar.

[Toto]

I'm getting second thoughts, but I want to hear his answer first.

[Toto]

TownCop, in particular I want you to pay close attention at what you said about why SB could be scum, and what Copper said on 182. Do you see my problem?

[Toto]

UNVOTE: towncop

It could mean many things. For now lets say you are town or really good at this.

[Toto]

Frank is town. I'm not happy with a SB lynch. I think he is town too, although I'm less confident than Frank. That's one reason why I dropped the vote on TC. Some things are not adding up. I need to think about this.

[Toto]

The 3 ICs are acting pretty non-committing. I think it's safe to say at least one of them is scum at this point.

[Toto]

The 3 ICs are acting pretty non-committing. I think it's safe to say at least one of them is scum at this point.

[Toto]

Wait what do questions have to do with being town?

Townies have more questions to ask, or more things to wonder. Townies don't know who is town and who is mafia, for example.

[Toto]

@TC You seem to agree with HS on the reasons for SB's scumminess. What's your take on SB's post 122.

[Toto]

@SB in post 122 you said Gideon may be 'milking' the newbie card. Can you explain why you said that?

[Toto]

Jason, can you explain to me what's the point of 188?

[Toto]

Post 122 actually looks quite towny to me, looks like a genuine towny surveying the situation. It was the posts later that gave me my scum read on SB.

Which in particular?

[Toto]

@Toto
Post 171 was quite suspicious, along with 168-169 when you connect it to 171.

Please elaborate. What is suspicious about it?

[Toto]

@mod: Jason has not posted in 2d+, are we replacing him?

[Toto]

if you thought the arguments were good enough to move you from your Toto scum-read onto someone scum-reading him, then why weren't you going to hold your vote on TC until he posted more incriminating text? What did he post that made you lean more mafia?

Can you make sure this is correctly phrased? I don't understand this question.

[Toto]

@Gideon. It seems to me he is reacting the same way you are. Does that mean you are scum too?

[Toto]

@Spy. I'm losing my patience. You better get in here and start producing some content.

[Toto]

@Spy. I'm sorry. I have a good feeling about you and I would like to hear your opinions on everyone else.

@TC. That's a dangerous use of WIFOM. In fact I feel the whole case on SB is based on WIFOM logic which is why I don't like it. In particular your analysis could be correct, but doesn't seem to add up with what he was saying in 119 (I was the one at L-1 here), and seems consistent with what he was saying about me already in post 122. So to me it feels more like a follow up of what he was saying already there, and since he joined the game. So there is actually four options here, from my vintage point:

scum!SB+town!TC: He foresaw you'd be attacked after my wagon was over and started defending you from the start. Seems unlikely to me.

scum!SB+scum!TC: He is chainsawing his way to defend you and you are accusing him for some reason. I'm not sure if this makes sense. But I guess is confusing enough it could work. Specially when you add more contrarian logic of you reading copper as town when he had been tunneling you since the beginning.

town!SB+scum!TC: SB seems he could fit a concerned townie that doesn't really understand the attack on you. His chainsaw attack to me and spy doesn't seem that aggressive. I find it odd that you town read copper and scum read SB though. The fact that copper is now voting SB seems to match this theory.

town!SB+town!TC: I can see this being a possibility too. But you are not making sense to me, and you seem pretty logical so far, so I'm having a hard time believing this.

From the above it seems you are more likely scum than town. The only reason I'm not voting you is that HS+Jason (and copper, but that is irrelevant) seem to agree on the SB case, so I'm going to let them pitch in here. Spy, I'd also like to know your opinion on this.

[Toto]

@SB in post 122 you said Gideon may be 'milking' the newbie card. Can you explain why you said that?

Not sure, but I've seen some new players jump into a game as scum and purposely act like a brand new player to dodge early bullets.

Didn't you just said you are a noob?

[Toto]

What if you flipped scum and I'm town?

Explain this again. What do you mean here?

[Toto]

B is town

I don't see Gideon expressing someone is town, actually. Are you really reading the thread or you just don't need to?

VOTE: SmoothBlue

[Toto]

that should be L-1. Please don't hammer without a claim. We still have time.

[Toto]

Actually I'm going to bed and you probably just pissed Gideon off
UNVOTE: SmotthBlue

[Toto]

In regards to Gideon,

Right now, I have a town vibe on him. He will need to add more discussion, ask specific players more questions in the future if he wants to stay alive past Day 2.

In post 276, Gideon wrote:
SmoothBlue and Spyre who's your top suspicion?


Spy and you.

This seems to have changed very recently, why? Also, why are you not voting Gideon or spy, since they are your top scumreads now.

What if the person I was defending at the time, got lynched, and flipped scum. If I'm town, what would your opinions of me be? I suspect, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Ok, I think what you are saying is "why would I stick my neck out if I was scum?" It's a fair point. However:

Quite sure everyone knew you were being tested.

I'll agree it does look that way, but I honestly thought you were wrongly accused. What if you flipped scum and I'm town?

1) You said, "everyone knew TC was being tested" (paraphrased)
2) If I was scum I would not defend him in case he flipped scum.

Does that add up to you? Where is the neck-sticking-outness if you assume (1)?

I'm 100% sure that Gideon has defined himself as town multiple times. Does Gideon not count as someone to you? Does my reasoning make sense now? Either way, he is still providing little content, which is my original point.

Nope. It doesn't make sense that this is equal to Gideon saying "A is scum and B is town". I don't see how this the same thing and why feel the need to defend this.

[Toto]

Yeah he did the same to me as well and that has the potential to look terrible if he is scum, so he probably doesn't care about how it looks and that is a town mindset (not one I appreciate but that's besides the point), either that or he is super cocky scum, a strategy which I have never seen a newbie try.

VOTE: SB

This sets a dangerous precedent. Not answering questions is not good for town. Cocky seems anti-town at the very least. Copper. You should know this. I don't like this post which is encouraging that behavior.

Gideon not answering questions leaves us with open suspicions on him which makes him a likely D2 target. It would be a shame if both SB and Gideon were town.

Gideon, I expect you to answer all open questions to you. SB, please answer yours too.

[Toto]

Alright. We have 6 days left. I think it's time to come up with a timeline for this.

SB, here is my

intent to hammer

you. I'm going to give you 24 hours to convince us you are not scum. After, if we are still not convinced, that I expect a claim within the next 24 hours. Make sure you read up on how to claim if you are town.

(anyone messing with the timeline above will be treated as scum)

[Toto]

(sorry for typos)

[Toto]

Why do we need 24 hours? Spyrex has already implied intent to hammer.

Spy said to wait for a claim. I'm giving out a timeline for the claim. I don't want to wait until the end of the 6 days, but I also feel it's fair to let the man speak up for himself.

We still have time left. I don't see why we need to rush it. How convinced are you he is scum?

[Toto]

Thats a good point Spy. I don't see what I can learn here if he flips town. Does that clear TC+copper? I don't think so.

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

[Toto]

If you are scum you have to confirm SB is town. That is the rule I think.

[Toto]

@SB
Assuming the claim is legit, do you still feel like the TC wagon was questionable?

This is a very odd question. Are you asking if he still feels that there is no case against TC or if he has changed his mind about the case we had back then?

[Toto]

(disclaimer, still assuming no counter claim, please don't take this personally)

Put on your scum hat for a moment. You want to make sure town get lynched. Usually that is going to require a vote. But,of course especially as a newer player, you're them forced into a fabrication time. You don't want to leave an unjustified vote so you have to give a reason. Ideally, something you can swing away from if necessary.

Something like for pressure.

And talking about the statistics, presuming knowledge, reading games, etc. You would see while in and of itself a vote is a vote the growth of a wagon starts to dictate scum will be on it.

I see your point, but it is almost the weakest point in this entire thread.

Placing people under the gun is a valuable asset as town. "If you don't claim, or defend yourself, you are on the brink of getting eliminated from the game". I think it was stated VERY clear a couple times in the thread that nobody wanted an early lynch. If this had come about nearing the deadline, I would look more into your reasoning, but this early into day 1.... TownCop even stated he was doing it to pressure Toto. We will need to put people on L-2, L-1 more often for information. Toto/Spy, not placing Mafia into these positions gives them free range and makes them much more dangerous. This makes you both look scummy in my eyes.

TownCop may be scum and was hoping some new townie would hammer Toto. Thus putting the pressure onto the new townie for hammering. Giving mafia two quick kills. I do honestly see where you are coming from but I feel it is way too early in the day for that play.

In my opinion, Toto did a brutal job of trying to defend himself and had votes flying everywhere and settled on TownCop. The fact that Spy/Gideon instantly switched their votes based on the above reasoning is quite ridiculous IMO.

I guess I don't see the point of beating on a dead horse

[@TC:] I honestly thought you were wrongly accused

Why do you expect a different answer? If you are not expecting a different answer, why do you ask this question? It would seem you would like to doubtcast the original wagon. Why would you... oh yeah...

VOTE: Copper

[Toto]

Great, more WIFOM.

Taking a deep breath because this is a newbie before continuing... your posting lately is fucking abysmal, think before you post.

Nice try at discrediting my post. Were you taking the deep breath at the same time you were thinking this post? Doesn't look like it!

More importantly, you forgot to answer my question:

Why ask a question you already should know the answer to?

(hint: I know the answer to this one too)

[Toto]

The reason why I asked, a question I already answered (hint read the thread, by your own logic you would be scum), is that at the time I did not give much credence to SB's post as I had him as a scum-read, now that I suspect that was a genuine read and something that I did not consider at the time I want to know more in detail why he felt that way and if I can rely on his TC read at the time or if he changed his mind.

You are telling me you don't see a conflict of interests of you asking SB to confirm he indeed did think that TC was not scum? Why do you need him to confirm the read was genuine? Seems quite obvious to me given that he is most likely confirmed-town. Why would you expect a different answer?

@Others: Am I taking this too far?

[Toto]

Alright. Ill drop it then.

UNVOTE: copper

Im fine with Jason. gideon would be second. I dont have anything beyond whats already been said.

[Toto]

@hs you can use the filter posts by user below and use the + button

[Toto]

Something is not adding up for me.

I would put Spyre high in the list of hypothetical Gideon's associates since he has been defending him a lot. So that's why I get conflicting reads for him. I don't see how else scum!Spyre could have protected Gideon if he happened to be newb!scum. He could have bused him but he also expressed that this was not a good strategy for Scum at this point. So if spy+Gideon are the scum team as initially suspected Spy's behavior seems consistent with that to me.

What I don't understand about this, and Gideon's case in general, is that most people seem to be reading Spyre as town and Gideon as scum. So clearly I must be missing something important here. Look at HS's last post. It basically presumes that Spy is town while at the same time saying Gideon is Scum.

[Toto]

Actually... Gideon + Jason could make sense.

[Toto]

Gideon, explain this

166 - You agree with me and Spy about TownCop. You Vote TC.
173 - TownCop doesn’t like you switching votes so easily and attacks and votes you.
205 - You say you were not planning to keep the vote in TC for long, but now that he is throwing accusations

everywhere

you are going to keep it.

Look closely at your post 205:

I honestly wasn't planning to maintain a vote against TownCop, but after his most recent posts, I have a pretty strong feeling that he might be mafia. I'm generally wary of people who make a lot of accusations. So far, the most accusations seem to have come from Toto

and TownCop[?]

. Before TownCop was accused, he was rather quiet and uninterested in scum hunting. After the accusation, he frantically started

pointing fingers everywhere[?]

. Seems like a pretty strong 'read' to me.

Still, all I know is that I'm town and somebody here isn't.

I’ll make it easy for you, answer these questions:

1) Why did you say towncop was ‘throwing accusations

everywhere

when in fact he was only accusing YOU?
2) How do you reconcile that '

the most accusations

seem to have come from Toto and

TownCop

' and next you say 'Before TownCop was accused, he was rather quiet and uninterested in scum hunting'. So he was throwing accusations everywhere, but at the same time he was uninterested in scumhunting?
3) How long have you been playing mafia and where?

[Toto]

Wow. haha. Ok.

@HS. What, in particular, did you find confusing about my last post? I'm happy to clarify. The questions in there are for Gideon, though. Also can you explain the part where I'm the one trying to incriminate Gideon now?

[Toto]

@toto:
You're not wrong in that I've been a proponent of Gideon town, but i wouldn't say I've defended him. In fact the fact i appear to be in a minority has made me doubt myself some.
It's good to think about associative tells but be very careful on their application. A gideon scum flip would make me a lot 'easier' scum read but a town flip doesnt make me town

That was my impression too. Defended was indeed too strong a word.

I'm a probabilities fan. All I wanted to say with this is that the more we suspect Gideon, the more we should suspect you, and the fact we are not suspecting you seems to conflict with this reasoning.

[Toto]

You were going a bit further than that questioning the validity of Gideon's wagon because people were not questioning Spyre as well, which doesn't make sense other than in your world where you are constantly looking for pairs, and that's where associations are dangerous and can lead down rabbit holes.

You are mis-interpreting my conclusion, or that's not the entire conclusion, at least.

The conclusion is that you have to either Suspect Gideon less, or Suspect Spyre more. Or some combination of the two. For example, it doesn't make sense to hard-town read spy and hard-scum read Gideon at the same time (just based on this data).

I was honest when I said I must be missing something. That's where I'm looking more feedback on.

[Toto]

@Huntress
This is the second time I've played with Wazza and both times he randomly lurked out

Was he Town or Mafia?

[Toto]

That's L-1

. Gideon, we need a claim.

Also make sure you answer questions.

[Toto]

I don't like this. I have a gut feeling Gideon is town. I won't hammer.

[Toto]

Counter claim. In essence, claim something that is counter to his role

He would have had to say so earlier in order for it to have any credence. This would result in instant lynch IMHO.

[Toto]

One has to notice that they placed the person at L-1 if they claim they are reaction testing, yet no unvote nor reaction testing analysis in the same post.

Are you admitting L-2 is not a reaction test, then?

[Toto]

Gideon is in deep shit. I don't think claiming VT is the optimal strategy in this situation for scum, neither is a CC.

[Toto]

No. Either L-1 or L-2 will work as a reaction test. However, as most reaction tests are done at L-1, it makes sense for him to realise such (at least consider and check) when he is posting about him doing a reaction test. I think Gideon fully intended for a L-1 reaction test from the start, and knew so when he voted me.

Ok, either he is lying about not knowing the L-1 thing like you say, or he didn't know if it was going to be L-1 or L-2 but was reasonably sure it was not going to be a hammer. Wouldn't scum in this situation be more careful?

I can sympathise with the latter because I had a similar situation at the start when voting Spy.

[Toto]

It's very clear to me that you simply forgot that you mixed Toto and TownCop in post 205, and didn't bother to read back on it. So instead you decided to manufacture out an answer that will make the town happy, even though that answer is as dodgy as the devil.

Can you clarify this for me. I actually don't understand why you think he mixed the names.

[Toto]

1) Why did you say towncop was ‘throwing accusations everywhere when in fact he was only accusing YOU?

Immediately after he was accused, in #197, he posted this:
"Current reads:
Copper: Towny
HS: Slightly Town
Toto: Slightly Town
Jason: Slightly Town
Spy: Slightly Town
SB: Slightly Scummy
Gideon: Scummy
Frank: Null"

Basically calling 6 people less than town.

This feels to me to like fishing for evidence that he was throwing votes everywhere. Why not be honest and admit that he wasn't?

This is the only reason I have to lynch Gideon TBH. We still have 3 days left and I would like frank to either replace out or come back and

confirm he has no counter claim to SB

and ideally give his thoughts on this situation.

[Toto]

SB: Why don't you like me? I was the one defending you until you started not making sense.

[Toto]

I disagree. If this game was only about logic it would be very boring. There would be no real tells.

[Toto]

Yeah. Sb is correct. Im out of patience.

VOTE: Gideon

[Toto]

Thats a hammer

[Toto]

<rant>
Gideon, if you are reading this, you should have told us you were the doc. You completely screwed our chances in this game. We would have one live tracker with some info for us instead two dead PR.
</rant>

@Everyone: Should we draw any conclusions from the fact Frank hasn't been replaced yet? My guess is not.

@Everyone: I'm sorry for the hasty hammer. I did it for a few reasons. One of them is that I was hoping we could use our tracker + the above to draw some conclusions. I didn't like HS last post on D1. In fact, I don't like a lot of the posts from HS on D1, specially since we now know they are not a PR. I will come back to this later.

@Copper: I think it's time to tell us why you are so convinced HS is town.

[Toto]

@HS I think you may be right about Gideon. About post 100. It does make you less likely (at the time) to be a PR. I did not realize it before. I need to think how that affects my other reads on you. Not sure if it does.

The player I'd be willing to be the game on being town is HS for me,

Copper, you pointed you didn't want to explain this before. I'd appreciate this now. What made you say this in post 178.

[Toto]

Solving effort does make a good case for Town!HS. However, I don't think the cases he built were legitimate.

+ SB's case was not good. It had many assumptions about what everyone else was supposed to be thinking at the time and how SB knew that and was util¡zing that information. I could make the same case against HS in many posts. Including the one where he accuses SB. It was also selective. It didn't include SB attack on you in post 122, Copper, which was definitely not something everyone else was thinking. Selective accusations and quoting are pretty bad.

+ Gideon's case had some false accusations in it and was very opportunistic. I don't like that Gideon was an obvious easy mis-lynch and he pushed so hard on it.

Chaos is a second option for me today. I didn't like that slot early interactions and I don't like the replacement's job so far.

I haven't thought of TC again. What's your case on him?

[Toto]

That's L-1

[Toto]

Spyre preemptively justifying his continued existence in the game in case of a town flip is worrisome, but he has a ton of cred for the Gideon read.

So you are worried he could be scum, but not so much because he correctly town read someone? How does that make sense?

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I mean. Doesn't mafia KNOW the truth? Why is your correct guess more likely to make you town? .I just don't understand the thought process. I actually think you are town.

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Well. It didn't stop it and got you town cred. Maybe you thought the lynch was going to happen at some point anyway.

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Seems convenient. How many games would you say you have ICed?

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You joined in 2008 so Im guessing you are good at this. Nevermind. I was going to ask an unfair question.

What do you make of Frank and his continued participation?

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Im guessing the fact he didnt get replaced in the last 48 hours is not AI?

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What do you think of the last question in 132. Is that a towntell or posturing?

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Well, not to be a dick, you are not doing so well on this one. Unless of course you are scum. In which case you are doing very well.

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I was thinking if two ICs are scum it would make more sense for one of them to be lurking. Frank makes sense but that post reads more like town to me.

I know. I know. Don't hunt by association.

Im going to go away for a while and let TC, Mr Chaos and Frank contribute a bit.

[Toto]

Im starting to like towncop

[Toto]

Im starting to like towncop

Dig deep on why because in getting a very inverse feeling.

I just like his reasoning. I also like how he now seems to be more active. But maybe I just got my hopes up.

I can see why you don't like him, though, since he is making some negative, or at least non-positive comments about you.

[Toto]

I don't like Chaos defense so far. I think HS is winning the debate.

How does one earn 'Best Town Performance' thing? Does that imply he sucks at being scum? Because he is not doing well.

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@Frank: by CT you mean TC (TownCop) ?

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Though, he could be avoiding easier targets to create potential associations. Know what I mean?

Please do explain.

[Toto]

For more completeness. Here are all the wagons in D1, plus some thoughts (from my point of view). Mostly things I found odd and suspicious.

Toto <- Frank, Gideon, TC, HS. This was the first wagon and I intended it to be bait. Not sure if it worked. Frank+HS could be OMGUS votes given what I was saying. We know Gideon is town now. Most suspicious is still TC.

TC <- Copper (RVS), Toto, HS, Gideon. Copper did say he considered TC scum but both him and HS and to some extent TC redirected the attack to SB.
Of people in this wagon HS is probably is the one with the weakest arguments. And to some extent Copper who was already in it via RVS. Gideon was also suspicious but now we know he was town.

SB <- HS, Jason/Chaos, Gideon, Copper, (Toto, intent to hammer, gives some time to prove innocence before claim)
Spy, apparently also intent to hammer, HS calls it implied intent to hammer, HS pushy to get claim. <-- I wanted to ask about this but forgot.
TownCop was reading SB as 'slight scum', but not on the wagon, was on Gideon.
Copper jumped to Gideon, but then decided to jump back on SB. <-- this also looks slightly suspicious, specially after we all ended up on Gideon.
Jason/Chaos just jumped in this wagon without much justification.

Gideon <- TC, HS, Chaos/Jason, Copper, Toto (lynch), Spy (intent to hammer, but reading as town)
This wagon is easy to mislynch and most likely to contain Scum. Unfortunately it has all of us except for frank who was dealing with the storm.
TC: Pushy
HS: Spearhead with some wrong accusations
Chaos: Joined and came swinging at Gideon straight away.
Copper: Hops on agreeing with Chaos easily (why do you agree with Chaos so easily if you were suspicious of his slot?)


Incidentally, Copper didn't 'join' the TC wagon. He was in it already from RVS. It seems odd he doesn't mention it in 553

[Toto]

Copper displayed intent to vote SmoothBlue earlier.

I think you meant Gideon instead of SB, and still, why doesn't Jason/Chaos gives him pause?

The question was supposed to be for Copper and would like to hear from him.

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Are you sure? You seem to have a problem with names. I hate wifom.

[Toto]

Considering the quote actually involves you talking about Gideon, yeah I'm pretty sure.
I hate wifom too. Why does it apply here?

Wifom was mostly a joke. Are you pretending to mix up the names so we stop giving you shit about Frank?

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@Toto
Chaos becomes a lot more suspicious once Gideon flips and when I saw the quick unvote from Jason (and then from you) on SB I pegged one of you down as the actual doctor, so I was even more hesitant to push there.

I see. I did not see this as probable doctor at the time. I was just following the pattern as I thought that was the protocol.

[Toto]

Jason's main scumread progression went from Copper is scum, to Copper's strongest scumread is scum, to immediately unvoting said scumread.

For disclosure I still find Jason's behavior suspicious. But this is not exactly what happened. Gideon was your top scum read at the time he voted SB (before you did).

[Toto]

Considering the quote actually involves you talking about Gideon, yeah I'm pretty sure.
I hate wifom too. Why does it apply here?

Wifom was mostly a joke. Are you pretending to mix up the names so we stop giving you shit about Frank?

No, and it's pretty absurd that you think I am.

Yeah, I which is why I hate wifom. (I know this is not exactly wifom).

[Toto]

You missed a '?'

[Toto]

Gideon was your top scum read at the time he voted SB (before you did).

I list the players I am looking at, after having interacted with TC, a few posts before he votes (those are Frank, Gideon and SB), including a post where I say I understand HS's case on SB and he may well be right so no Gideon was not my main scum-read at the time.

That may be all well and true. But I don't perceive that SB is your top scum read from that part of the thread. You seem more interested in Gideon at the time, from my 3rd person point of view. Your point that Jason voted SB because he was your top scum read is not completely valid, even if that was true in your mind.

[Toto]

I'm noobtown

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Toto, what's the difference between copper's L-1 vote on Gideon following me when copper said he was suspicious of my slot and your hammer vote when you said you had a gut town read on Gideon and wouldn't hammer?

Are you asking me what's the difference between these two situations or why I changed my mind and voted Gideon?

One difference is I didn't just say "seems solid" and proceeded to vote him.

I also asked him questions and grew more suspicious when he failed to answer convincingly to my well intended questions. When I made my mind to lynch him, even though I thought it was a lower chance than I would like it to turn scum, I also thought it was a good timing to end the day (I explained this earlier) on what seemed like a locked lynch, and the worst case scenario was going to be a VT to my knowledge.

Why do you think these are similar situations?

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

Let's clarify the Frank situation first. I'm interested in TC's follow up as well.

Are you satisfied with Franks situation and TC follow up yet?

[Toto]

@Toto
You're annoying, I hope this is not scum and I'm slowly getting tuned out, read the thread and you'll see where I am at.

There have been some disconnects between what I read in the thread and where you were in the past so I'd rather let you clarify.

@TownCop: If Chaos is your top scum read why are you not voting him? maybe you are undecided? who is your other(s) scum read?

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Can 2 IC's or and IC and SE both be scum, while every newbie is townie?

Hey Frank,

Why would you ask this while strongly suspecting me at the same time?

[Toto]

@chaos

Im on my phone... Post numbers should be close to this:

398 i ask questions
415 declare i wont lynch him
424 he answers questions
451 i don't like one of the answers.

If you read the thread you notice I also try to clarify and remove some of the other accusations.

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@chaos also don't forget to answer my question about why you think cases are similar

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Spy. Your Yoda style prose I find confusing sometimes. Like normal people can you speak?

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I was thinking about the hypothetical scenario where Chaos flips green. Wouldn't we want to be prepared for that, I mean, it's Mylo in that case, and mafia may be prepared for blitzing us.

Early unjustified votes like the one from HS today could be... disastrous? Why do we want to end the day early again Spy?

[Toto]

It's true that I did not follow up vote him, but I wanted to interact further with him.

The fact that you only consider

me

not voting, and ignoring FrankJaeger (to some extent) and Toto.

FrankJaeger

does

seem a bit suspicious

Something is missing in here. Looks like an edit error.

[Toto]

Spyre brought up the CC thing when Gideon claimed VT. That was probably the strongest thing he did to defend him. However, it was technically wrong. But (1) still doesn't matter because he was defending him and (2) I don't think he did it on purpose because he can not lie about those things.

He also started voting Jason since then, and brought up good reasons why he is scum already when the Gideon wagon was forming. I think Spy is town if Chaos is scum. He may also be town if he is not but I will also jump to the drawing board in that case.

If he was busing Chaos then, it's a damn good bus.

[Toto]

Do you guys think there was one or 2 scum on D1 lynch wagon?
If 2 TC is best pick.
If you think it was split SPY IS 100 PERCENT SCUM.

Why is TC the best pick if there was two in that wagon?

Why is Spy 100% scum if there was 1?

The only logical way to conclude 100% scum spy is if there was 0 scum in that wagon. Are you bussing Spy?

[Toto]

@Copper.
What I'm reading is that if Frank is scum, he is probably not scum with Chaos. I can explain but it is based on what will be the optimal plays for Frank in the following days and this seems to be advantageous in that situation.

To be honest I'm not reading TC as scum either he seems to be focused on clarifying the attacks by Frank, and not actively scum-hunting which is a bad sign. This is somewhat scummy but I can also understand that Chaos is not really answering questions right now and we don't have more leads.

I'm still leaning scum on Chaos but want to wait for him to give his input in case he is green. We still have some time.

If Chaos flips green Frank has a lot to gain if scum by playing how he is today.

[Toto]

The setup doesn't really work in my eyes because you're pushable only with a Chaos town flip and Frank explicitly builds that in his assumption of Spyre scum, if we were to lynch TC and he flips town at least some of us will likely think, damn I should have listened to Spyre, and I don't see how he plans to convert that into cred to lynch you.

It helps if Chaos is not scum and we lose at Mylo.

[Toto]

and the two TC's don't match up well.

This is a good observation I had a similar feeling when he was accusing SB of being scum because he was defending him too much. It didn't make sense HE was saying that.

[Toto]

If Chaos is

green

, spy lives, doesn't that mean

Spyre has ALL his flipped reads CORRECT

?

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. How does Chaos green means correct Spy?

[Toto]

Information denial? interesting.

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I don't think you are supposed to self-hammer as town. Unless this is a rage-quit sort of thing but Chaos seems like chill person.

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Frank, you may want to go back and answer my questions you haven't answered yet.

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which ones would you like me to rephrase?

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This is a mechanic that's only helpful for town, and I don't believe he'd be so willing to teach me about it if he wasn't so comfortable and confident using it himself. Plus, it still reads genuine to me.

I don't see how this is AI. What's with the highlighted part though?

[Toto]

I'm still want to hear what towncop has to say about his upcoming lynch tomorrow, after we lynch Frank today.

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Finally your reaction to Chaos's hammer after you gave him 12hrs to post kinda gives it away, don't you think.

Can you explain this?

[Toto]

What's with the highlighted part though?

Nevermind, I think I get this now.

[Toto]

I wrote that post to ask TC to come and tell us why we should vote frank and not him since they are the two most likely to be scum. I have not decided who Im going to vote today. It looks like you wont need my vote to lynch frank though.

[Toto]

Copper is town. Im betting the game on that at this point.
Im reading HS as town too. Less confident than copper.

Im not assuming there is going to be a tomorrow but I think there is a reasonable chance frank is town and tc is scum.

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One thing that stands out for me is that Jason never commented on TC's wagon

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@TC. I'd ask you to take your time to come and post but I'm starting to get impatient.

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Ok It seems TC is on a semi vl/a for a week or so.

I think at this point the votes are settled. Copper/HS if you are scum then well played to you.

Here is what Im going to do. I keep going back and forth between the two of you.

VOTE: frank

thats l-1

Tc if you are town go ahead and lynch frank. If not consider accepting defeat graciously and saving us all a couple of days by voting self. Same goes to you frank.

[Toto]

@Frank,
I would not try VCA in your place. I can say that you are the only living player that never was on the same wagon as Chaos/Jason outside of RVS. If you think TC is scum you better provide reads. Also, I don't know of any evidence that says whether your VCA analysis on TC, even if true, is indicative of alignment.

If you think TC is scum, you better provide actual reads. Yes, TC will try to discredit them but he is not the one judging here.

@TC. If you are scum you are just making this whole thing a lot longer than it should be. There are no extra points for making it to Lylo in this site AFAIK. It is win/lose.

[Toto]

Whoohoo! Well played everyone!

[Toto]

I also enjoyed this game and learned a lot (big thanks to the ICs/SE).

I think I should trust my gut a bit more and push harder on town/scum reads in the future.

Also, I'm sorry if you found me annoying. It is part of the game.