Death Curse

[Hopkirk]

It’s somewhat an annoying curse
When one is forced to speak in verse
Though this from Hectic I’d expect
It harms my power to detect
Yet this trifling impediment
Does not mean I’ll be negligent
The game begins with a full day
Easy to hide out of the way
I could just lurk and survive this
But I’d prefer to be LAMIST
‘I’m town’ I’ll cry from my rooftop
Not kill nor vote shall make me stop
Now all, convinced I’m innocent
And may I add, magnificent
Shall back me up as I scumhunt
Leading the town right from the front
The scroll will pass from hand to hand
And on the scum shall surely land
The mafia we won’t acquit
We’ll kill them all, it will be lit

[Hopkirk]

I have myself some suspicion
I’ll vote now, without omission
My choice is good, although not rare
VOTE: Pookymagicalbear

[Hopkirk]

Hello! How I've missed you all!

Vote: Pooky

Since town gets to control at least two of the eliminated each day (the first scroll bearer and at least one of the next two), I think that we should use a points based voting system to rank who gets E'd from the game. I propose that we all pick our top three suspects each day, rank them, first choice gets 4 points, second gets 2, and third gets 1. (The exact number of points is up for debate, but hey ho this is what I settled on as a pretty straightforward one, which I think is better that 3,2,1 at reflecting people wanting to E their first choices). I think adding up the points will give pretty good guidance to the cursed where to pass the scroll and will hopefully be more accurate than treating the scroll as a vengeful shot.

For the first pick, I'm pretty happy sticking with the usual voting, but I'd also be curious to see if using the ranking system produces good elims generally.

While at first glance this may seem good
I'd oppose this, don't think we should
I'd be concerned of the EVs
Counting charisma changes these

There's twenty of us, five are scum
And no nightkills from them will come
If one of five doth top our list
They shall continue to exist
If a single one appears town
Victory will not come around

Sure mafia can kill obvgood
Discussing picks in their dayhood
Best case is twelve dead by day four
One good read then would doom us, aw

Scum in top threeish is loss right
So point system may not delight

[Hopkirk]

Hey Isis you were the reviewer
How should we best make scum fewer
You must have thoughts on the setup
I'd recommend you cough 'em up

[Hopkirk]

No, don't give the scroll to obvtown
That would just bring our win rate down
More, the list is easy to game
Follow too closely feels a shame

I'll rephrase the flaw if I may
Even if we kill one each day
That leaves us little wriggle room
To find the last or soon face doom

[Hopkirk]

Does this look right in terms of stats
The answer could affect our strats

---
D1
Kill 0 40%
Kill 1 54.5%
Kill 2 5.5%

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Noraa

[Hopkirk]

The plan seems fine on paper, but you have to also bear in mind that people who get scrolls know they are dead anyways, so they aren't going to be held accountable if they go rogue and want to be a hero and shoot an unpopular target.

The renegade or loose cannon
Selects the target of their gun
Probably someone who's sent insults
But damn, they sure do get results

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.
Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/
Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

I'd call this a high effort flail
To win my trust your post did fail
This post you've made it feels because
The pressure getting to you was
The townreads do not feel deserved
Is how I'd sum what I've observed

[Hopkirk]

Hey Noraa please tell me
All of your thoughts on LLD

Taylor swift 3rd scum thanks bell

While I assume this is a joke
I'll give advice, make it bespoke
There's no third parties in this game
A waste you say, yeah it's a shame

'How did you know?' You ask of Hop
'Your game knowledge I'll never top'
You all could know as much as me
If only you would read OP

[Hopkirk]

Isn't that just kind of telling on yourself that you don't really have a ground to call this tunnelling

no you are tunneling. its clear as day. if anyone doesn't think its tunneling, I'd think they r weird

?

I don't understand why Noraa is getting defensive here in this type of setup. Noraa if you were the first to be given the scroll wouldn't you give it to your scum read?

Taylor asking do scum have a daytalk I couldn't tell if this was a joke or not.

Hey pick a side and show some sense
We don't need you warming the fence

[Hopkirk]

.

Nice try to post, but mod or not
I'll try my best to steal pagetop

[Hopkirk]

I got that wrong, it feels spooky
I've townreads on Lamb and Pooky.

[Hopkirk]

Hey Noraa please tell me
All of your thoughts on LLD

I think pooky's point is valid and understandable considering I would likely agree if I weren't in my own position rn in which case I disagree that was a forced townslip because I had not read the OPs. That aside, LLD jumped on my wagon right off the bat which didn't surprise me bc I definitely understand that from a town pov, that prolly read bad and not willing to give me the benefit of the doubt is understandable. The problem is that LLD used an argument to back Pooky's case up that was misleading as I was not as she implied, super hyped up and ready to play since long ago. I was actually one of the last few people to /in so her saying that I was so hyped up that it's impossible I didn't read the OPs is just unreasonable not to mention using an argument like that against me is just mean considering its literally not even on ms.

I pointed this out immediately and she never responded until I poked at her again later.

she is overly confident and half of her reasons are just like "this post is bad"

Also can we point out that I am a noob compared to the majority of the people here? I do not understand why a lot of my posts are labelled as bad bc I am absolutely solving. My reads are weak and shit but really they are always going to "look scummy" if you first assume that I am scum and then look at my posts.

I see a lot of buddying in my wagon and tbh if I flip today, it'll be really interesting to see them immediately start doubting each other for pushing me this hard. I think a lot of people this game are over their heads and way too confident. I generally associate confidence with time and experience but regardless, a day 1, 10 pages in, lock scum!Noraa is just ridiculous especially from my pov.

Can you make that more specific
The phrasing isn't terrific

You said you thought it would be fun
Did you say to everyone
That was because Hectic was mod
Or slightly on the setup laud

[Hopkirk]

Can you make that more specific
The phrasing isn't terrific

You said you thought it would be fun
Did you say to everyone
That was because Hectic was mod
Or slightly on the setup laud

what do you need more specific?

How obvious did you make it
Reading setup you did omit

[Hopkirk]

Can you make that more specific
The phrasing isn't terrific

You said you thought it would be fun
Did you say to everyone
That was because Hectic was mod
Or slightly on the setup laud

what do you need more specific?

How obvious did you make it
Reading setup you did omit

When you said the game 'would be fun'
That's this question for you done

[Hopkirk]

When you said the game 'would be fun'
That's this question for you done

yeah I said the game would be fun in the discord server with LLD. I mean ... hectic's modding so it'd be weird if it wasn't interesting

Did you specify ONLY modding
And mention not another thing

[Hopkirk]

Average eighty-six posts per day
That's quite impressive I must say

[Hopkirk]

I'm skimming 'cause thirty pages
Doing more would just takes ages
Plus I like the hyperposters
Much more than the no post coasters

I trust that Noraa received several votes for that? So I'll hold off for a moment.

UNVOTE:

Ok let's clarify something rq. I asked Cabd to bring me along to spectate the next game he was going to spectate. He said he was gonna spectate this game and that I was in it already. I was at the time, not even aware of this games existence. I checked out this game and saw it was modded by hectic and was like ooooo sounds fun! so then I directly inned. I don't read setup. Everyone says that I town slip as scum. So to be completely honest, a lot of the "townslips" aren't even town slips for me cuz I legitimately don't pay attention to the OPs. Pooky since you referenced Mafiasunny, I was a mafia goon that game and I legitimately asked my partners in the pt if there were town prs. Dumb question ig you could say and considering my partners were voyeur and Roleblocker, it should've been pretty obvious there were prs. I didn't read any of the setup in that game either and submitted actions in the pt when the mod directly said you had to pm him. I literally do not read OPs of games with setups I've never played in before(that was my first mini theme). I want to reference two different games as well but they're ongoing so I can't but regardless I only skim OPs and sometimes I dont even do that. In this case, I did not read anything believe it or not.

I do not understand. Why did you feel the need to ask how many scum are in the setup rather than looking? If you thought this setup was closed, why would one of the designers/reviewers (Isis) play it?

I am playing with the idea you're just easy elimbait, but what an odd question to ask.

I dislike this, it's fence-sitty
The first sentence is a pitty

¶

Votecount 1.4

[9] Noraa:

UNOwen, Lady Lambdadelta, Hopkirk, MURDERCAT, PookyTheMagicalBear, Adorable, Flea The Magician, Toogeloo, shellyc

[1] Tayl0r Swift:

Tayl0r Swift

[2] shellyc:

VaultDweller, Bell

[1] PookyTheMagicalBear:

Isis

[1] Bell:

Lapsa

[1] Adorable:

Noraa

[5] Not Voting:

Gloria Cleary, MUSHSHAGANA, Theta Alpine, Fidget, Zdenek

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to curse someone with the scroll. If there is no majority by the deadline, the mafia will choose who to curse.

The cursing deadline is in (expired on 2020-10-28 03:35:35).

Joint moderator ISO.

Whether nora flips bad or not
It feels like bussing we have got
Most likely scum on the wagon
Feels like Ador or Unowen

[Hopkirk]

Bell will you help me with this game? I think you're town. I guess you could be scum doing fancy soft defend anticatalyst stuff people said but you feel like town and I don't care

ok isis/bell/noraa/???/???

hmmmmmm

ok mush is town
mush LLD taylor pooky are locktown

Woah, one hundred percent my reads
I'd expect soon the scum concedes

Sadly due to lacking the time
Until tomorrow I'm a mime

[Hopkirk]

As the double replacement conditional post restricted townie, I'm conflicted about these changes. On the one hand, I can post properly. On the other hand, we're loosing Isis. On the other hand, we're getting Vax. On the other hand, I have more hands than I realized and that's pretty good tbh.
That role probably would have been better in a micro than a large tbh.

Vaguely aware there's some kind of wagon on me.

Ok, I see the so-called fake townslip. My first thought was that it was a joke post, but nowhere did they state that it was a joke post. At least from what I could read. So yeah, that makes it kind of scummy, especially with the link Pooky gave: (viewtopic.php?p=12236870#p12236870). I will abstain from voting for now though, with the wagon so close to being hammered and the day only 24 hours old.

This is probably scum.

LLD has several scummy posts
but some towny posts too
she's back to eh now

Your inability to read me is tilting me off the face of the earth.

I don't even know what meta bullshit game you are referencing to get this weird "tell" on me that wouldn;'t work even if I WAS SCUM (you moron)

but let me make this fucking really simple for you.

I'm going to die this game you fucking dummy. There's a 0 percent chance I live to endgame.

Fuck's sakes, like. How are you this dense?

Or is it this was a distraction or something?

IDFK

Yeah, you don't seem like a particularly fun person to play with based on this. I saw you had 200 posts, so hopefully they're not just all flinging abuse.

Frankly speaking - this game's a garbage so far.

To an extent of people openly claiming scum and getting away with that.

The lack of follow up here is scummy/too scummy to be scummy hm.

Shelly/Denek/Mush/LLD/Pooky/Taylor fairly obvtown as of p27.

[Hopkirk]

A decent part of my Zdenek townread, looking to be one of my spicier reads atm, is that blatantly bad 'we should do this strategy' style posts come from newbtown from a good place (which I get in the tone of their follow ups to me in regard to it), not newbscum trying to fake content.

Made it to page 15.

Bell, I feel like I should be town reading you, after pages 7,8. Could you say something that will make be not be concerned by you?

I think Swift is probably town, and I think that Noraa-Swift scum buddies would be shocking.

You don't get to use this excuse after you won that other scumgame against very competent players.

What was your opinion of that game - it was one of the few that I looked at since signing up for this one. My own impression was that Noraa’s win really was quite lucky. Also, LLD, can you clarify what was said on the discord server? Preferrably in a way that town!Noraa would be bound to agree with.

Hopkirk, what were those numbers anyway?

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

Numbers are something like this, I didn't check this so 1 might not add up right. If so just throw in a balancing β and we're fine.
0 = 15/20 * 14/19 * 13/18
1 = β or (15/20*14/19*5/18) + (5/20*14/18)+(15/20*4/19)
2 = 5/20 * 4/18

"I should be TRing Bell"
"proceeds to SR Bell"

inconsistency = bad

Are you for real with this and the flailing thing. I feel like you can’t be given the number of games you’ve played just from sheer blocks being knocked over after building them up.

Zdenek: I genuinely don’t know what you want me to say from that post. It just looks like you’re fence sitting.

Nope.

My top three scum reads are Noraa, Owen and Bell.

What's this all about?

UNOwen is here! Quick, get 'em!

UNOwen, I would like your opinions. All of them (that are relevant to the game). I would like them soon, because right now your slot is /content free/. Zero calories. No fat, sugar, artificial flavors, natural flavors. 100% empty.

I disagree my slot is content free. It has a juicy and filling Noraa scum read, I do not expect to vote elsewhere until she is cursed.
If there is something specific you'd like me to opine about, ask and I will provide.

This is the slot that needs flak for the Noraa scumread. Trying to give an image they've had that read from the start when I don't see anything I like on the progression post rvs. Scum Uno here can't unvote at that point and is locked in, but I haven't seen a sincere pivot or deepening of the read.

[Hopkirk]

I'm catching up in between work btw, so don't expect this to be super quick until I finish.

UNO i would like these names arranged in order of town -> scum
shellyc
Mushagana
isis
pooky
LLD
hopkirk

im getting major gut townvibes from hopkirk btw, based on the resistance to leashing, the pushing on noraa and reasonable TRs

LLD
MUSH
shellyc
Pooky
Hopkirk
Isis

insightful

why is mush that high though

Reeee why is this insightful.

The LLD read is a consensus read and not too out of place.
The Mush read is well-reasoned and logical
The Pooky read is fine since pooky/isis s/s is possible
I would like you to elaborate on hopkirk tho

Isn't this the exact order you wanted to hear though? You picked 4 people you thought were obvtown, one slight town, and one suspicious (all reads you'd said) then Uno's order didn't conflict with that at all. What was your logic behind those specific 6 being the listing?

They didn’t give a reason at the time of that post tho and no logic was provided.

Hopkirk I just have trouble reading through the rhymes because i’m not enjoying him like I usually would due to anhedonia.

Ohno, hope you're feeling betty soon

[Hopkirk]

LLD is town, but I've noticed that essentially none of her posts can be reduced down to 'gr I'm angry' rather than any meaningful content.

hectic is a rather boring mod

don't modkill me

an investigative mindset leans town though, it's not making something out of nothing, it's quite clearly a solving mindset

Right but if Noraa is correct that she did not mention setup in discord, does that make her more likely to be town?
It doesn't seem like a useful line of inquiry, because I already presumed she had not mentioned setup.

Upsides
IF Nora town - full picture of the situation reduces odds of misunderstanding
IF Nora scum - they can easily get caught out in a direct lie here
Either way - any interaction with Noraa helps inform our reads on the slot.
No downsides

I want to do Noraa because Noraa has CLAIMED SHE WILL HAND TO ADORABLE.

incorrect. I said there were two possibilities and I will not be forced to choose one. I will choose for myself. Don't worry stop screaming I think ur a town that's way over your head. I suggest you tone it down otherwise its gonna look really nasty tomorrow after a green flip on my end.

I really don't understand how LL's mental image of Noraa would be 'Someone who'll do something they said earlier on, definitely not changing their mind or being annoyed with the game at all since then, definitely not chaotic or emotional as a player'.

[Hopkirk]

I asked how many scums there are. If I was scum, I would literally just be like ok so with 4 scums here, blah blah blah. Do you really think that's not a more convincing town slip?

I don't follow. Are you saying that as town you wouldn't read the OP, but as scum (you still wouldn't read the OP but) would know how many scum there were and not ask the question that town you always would?
I don't get the logic unless you're saying you plan to use trust tells in a really dumb way that hurts your win rate more than it helps it.

Give me shit to work with so if you DO flip town, it's information for us.

then give noraa the chance to do it by taking the pressure off of her and starting a wagon on someone else

if noraa is town this gives her the chance to contribute without feeling pressured to defend herself
if noraa is scum she is going to die today regardless

and it gives us the chance to get more interactions with a wagon on someone who is not already doomed

Bad post

Sometimes, as town, you just have to eat a death. This includes a miselim. Even on D1. By fighting it so hard you make yourself look worse Noraa.

I'm 50/50 on whether you are purposefully doing it as scum because you want to avoid real conversations or if you are just playing to live instead of playing the optimal way to win as town.

But we have to eliminate you because there's too many SRs. So if are town please work with us now.

This is really bad phrasing. The last part feels like a lamist mediator talking words and ignoring why Noraa isn't working with us. Like if Noraa is town here in what world does she respond positiviely to 'work with us' and nothing else? In worlds of scum Noraa it doesn't matter sure, but if you care about the say 10% chance town Noraa (guessing your priors here) then this is a spaghetti weak appeal with only limpyness behind it.

The best timeline here is Noraa town passes to scum LLD and is lauded for the big brain play

This doesn't happen because scum LL pushing town Noraa this far would give odds Noraa rage shoots LL much higher than any town benefits they'd get out of it imo.

My reasons:

Considering she can push this hard, she is 100% a threat to town. I did mess up some but I don't believe at all that she's willing to reconsider even for a second. She is way over herself and squashes all other opinions. I will bring her down with me to prevent town from having this absolute domineering player that is, as far as I'm concerned, pushing in 100% the WRONG places. She is not helping town and is so fucking frustrating to work with. I do not think town benefits from her reads and presence AT ALL. Perhaps this is hypocritical coming from me considering my playstyle also sucks ass but I mean in the end, its beneficial for town cuz we get basically two policy lims.

My problem is that scum-you threatens to shoot a strong townread here in an attempt to try and get us to say 'let's hit Noraa with the third shot instead of first'. It's essentially light blackmail, and it's a bad look for you either way.

I think you're really overestimating LL's voice in the game btw. To me she's literally just sorted noise that I've chucked in the townbin and don't really care about. If you're town then how about literally not responding to, reading, or commenting on anything else LL says today, accepting she's probably town, and trying to find some more townreads. Imo, townblocking+POE is the best D1 strat. Good odds for the POE shoots beat out good scumreads unless there's a major skill disparity btw scum/town.

Atm I can't see any serious townreads from you or any attempt to look at your wagon. Sure, you could be 'legitimately annoyed', but can you also see why we'd all have a problem with that response since scum you really doesn't want to give out associative here, while town you has incentive to be trying to engage outside the black hole LL essentially is to you?

[Hopkirk]

If I kill you while knowing you are town, maybe you should think twice before going ham on a newbie page 7 in a game.
rather than blaming everything on someone that has way less experience, consider that maybe you haven't done the best either.

If you are town you played poorly and deserved to die. I'm fallible, I can make mistakes. But you look like scum and have played like scum.

But telling me to my face that because I got one read wrong, a read that would be easy to get wrong if indeed you are town given how you played.

And that I've somehow done something wrong.

You're delusional. I'd do this 100/100. It's not my fault you're deciding to game throw. Managing your emotional state is not my job, it's yours. You came here to play a game and you have a role to play if you are indeed town. Killing a townie is playing against your win condition and is against site rules.

This has honestly got to be a really dedicated parody account lol.

yea she just realized the worst case scenario for her is to not get to shoot LLD for her scum team

Is this assuming she's ignored other scum in the PT telling her 'Noraa wtf' or that they just aren't commenting?

Oh no but his posts are so fun

I assume this is the "who I would have shot"

Correct.

His posts are exactly the space of where I would be if I were scum this game.

Agreeing with most people.

Using a gimmick to hide themselves.

They townread me without a lot of good reasons and I didn't get great vibes.

They agreed with Isis and Bell being scum which was ???

I'm pretty sure they are in the "scum zone" and I want them dead.

Ok I give up, which one of these was supposed to be alignment indicative?

Like you have to remember.

the more pubilc and vocal you are, the more likely you are to die.

People like Mush and I are townie but marked for death. IF we're scum it's kind of over.

but Hopkirk is on no one's radar. No one is marking them as scum, no one marking them as hard town.

which means they will escape most lists and live a long time.

Which is what scum want to be here.

There's a lot of people in the game who'll have seen me mention in other games I'm essentially V/LA tuesdays/thursdays because I'm bust playing mafia then. Wednesday was busy this week.

[Hopkirk]

Noraa's like 35-40 town, 65-60% scum for me at this point, but I'd flip her today (third because I don't trust the rage kill) even if that was 60-40 the other way since we've got fifty pages of discussion on her, we get all the information from it, and scum never kills her at this point

but Hopkirk writes poemz D:

I love the poems too, but my first thought when I saw them was "using a gimmick this game is a great scum cover to avoid lists and having to be dredged down in fights that kill you".

I told Hectic I was going to do this before the game. It went something like this:

Hopkirk spotted Hectic hiding in the bushes outside Pooky's house and strolled over to join him. 'I think I'll post exclusively in eight syllable rhyming couplets for Death Curse. You wouldn't modkill me if I commited hard to it then stopped would you?'

'Wow Hopkirk, what kind of mod do you think I am. That would be unethical.' Hectic gasped.

'Just like tax evasion' Hopkirk nodded.

They shared a finger gun.

'No but seriously though, Isis would literally chop my fingers off and feed them to my cat if I did.' Hectic sighed. 'What's the point in moderating if I can't just modkill whoever I want for stupid reasons.'

'What if you edit in a few rules into the OP then claim they were there the whole time?'

'I guess that might work. How'd you find me anyway?'

'You're always waiting outside Isis and Pooky's house at two or three in the morning. I checked with Isis but she wasn't home so I came right here.'

'Sometimes you're a real Flavour leaf.' Hectic chuckled. Hopkirk didn't ask him to explain what that meant, no matter how much Nero was wondering. It was fairly obvious what Hectic meant, and Hoppy knew how much his pal explaining his metaphors.

There conversation was interrupted as Pooky left his house to pick up his newspaper. Hectic leapt out of the bushes, stuffing Pooky under his arm and running off.

Hopkirk turned to Nero. 'I'm surprised you went along with this.' He began before trailing off as he noticed the look of horror that had crossed Nero's face.

'I... I never thought he'd go through with it.' Nero muttered. 'He always talked about it, but I assumed the cat was enough.'

'He needed someone else to hug.' Hopkirk shook his head. 'And we all know who's the cuddliest person on the site.'

'I guess.' Nero said. He seemed a little offended.

'You know what this means though? Now Death Curse doesn't have a mod.'

'No...' Nero said, pulling his trusty XL18 industrial strength flamethrower from its holster. 'But it's still got a goddamn co-mod. Hectic is my responsibility.'

Hopkirk tried to stop him, but Nero had already disappeared. He sighed in resignation, helped himself to Pooky's paper since he probably didn't need it anymore, then went off to do whatever he did on Thursday evenings.

------
I assume Nero/Hectic made up some time after that, but idk what happened there. Maybe Pooky saw and could tell us about what happened next?

Hopkirk iso looks null to me. I agree in principle with the logic for why that's scummy but I'm also not against hearing Hopkirk out for explanations for the reads.

Which ones? I think I only really commented on pretty obvtown slots?

[Hopkirk]

:/
hang in there noraa

noraa is right. this game is dumb. everyone is letting lld play dictator and determine everything. thats not good. the people shes "working with" are just egging her on. this is not how town wins games.

It's like, just 2-3 people, one of whom is pretty sus right now. Not sure why everyone's acting defeatist. Ovtown hyperposters being wrong isn't remotely a death sentence.

its impossible to do much scumhunting while the thread is almost exclusively you dictating what everyone should think.

give me the scroll please. please please. let me kill lld. if we dont kill her now town loses 90%.

I think by far the highest % play as town here is to let LLD work on D1 and use whether or not she lives and what the associations are to hunt afterwards.

DING DING DING

It's almost liek this has been the plan the whole day.

Really interested where your murdercat SR is coming from since I'm SRing the slot if anything.

MurderCat, what's your take on Taylor here and them trying to shutdown the Hopkirk wagon?

I would be too scared of you as scum to do what tayl0r is doing if you are right about Noraa

I think Tayl0r often stands up for Noraa here as town and might genuinely feel like she (tayl0r) can't operate how she wants too. I don't think Hopkirk/Tayl0r/Noraa/?/? is the solve because Tayl0r probably just let's hopkirk come back and defend.

Can you post a summary of what I need to defend against? Not interested in this from anyone except murdercat, thanks.

i step away for an hour and suddenly we are doing my plan

and yeah okay VOTE: tayl0r swift

we can sort hopkirk later and i am less sure about that
i still think adorable is prob scum but that is not going to be a thing we vote for i guess

You say you're not sure, don't have any lean?

hopkirk is not naturally scummy or LHF or disagree with LLD

try again

Can your explain this post? Frist 2/3 only.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk has taken no stances of note, gets maddeningly turned around and stuck on mechanics, is using an obfuscatory posting style, and is dodging any attempt to corner them into producing content.

from MUGO - which part of that is scummy from day one of the game?

Like seriously 'dodging any attempt to corner them into producing content?' Going to want to get clarification on what you mean here.

faking a post restriction would normally be rather scummy in my book but i am fairly sure in this game it is not alignment indicative

they did seem to attempt some discussion on game mechanics which i like

the blank vote on noraa is lean scum for me
i personally think scum would at least try to explain their vote though

they agreed with another players reads without much elaboration which does not sit right with me
but i feel like this early in the game it is excusable

yeah

i am willing to kill them at the moment but i strongly believe other slots are more likely to be scum

Fence sitty in post one. Doesn't take a stance until directly called to at which point has a stance. Hmmmm.
Going to what detail about which parts of that were AI in a meaningful way there and how much each one contributed since I thought that was a light town lean on me from your first post there.

like seriously how do you expect to get towncred with a blank vote
that does not make sense to me
but maybe they expected town to look for bussers so idk

why do i need towncred in this setup?

@Lady - since I'm back now it's fine for you to let everyone know you were just doing this as a reaction test for the more nullish slots. I'm assuming you've got similar leans like I have from it (bad on theta for example)

[Hopkirk]

Isis is gone so obviously I can't soul-read her and Hectic is the moderator so you're just trolling me at this point

Are you feeling ok? The kind of passive overreaction of this feels like it's come from a less good (irl, not game related) headspace.

Vaxkiller replaces Isis! Give them the warmest of welcomes.

Hey Vax I'm so sorry nobody else welcomed you very much. Welcome to our game, hope you enjoy it

This is probably scum.

isn't the pro scum play here to just. bus Noraa and get LLD and misdirect LLD

I don't get scum motivation to sit on their hands on Noraa slot
they just bus Noraa with LLD impossible to marginalise now

isn't Lapsa a lurker as either align

If Noraa is town (say 30%, though I was closer to 60% when I made this post) then quickhammering is suicide and they lose nothing by dragging a Lady vs
Noraa fight out for ages. It bogs stuff down and creates mess. I'm getting a sense like a lot of scum just aren't posting here and wanted to let things play along.

If Noraa is scum, either they think they can change the wagon, or they don't want to look like obvious bussing. I think we were already looking for people bussing at that point. If we weren't 'look for bussing' is pretty strong site meta as far as I'm aware, so I can see this just being a newbscum who isn't sure of the best way to react to this but wants to post something. The tone reads as really 'don't want to get on anyone's bad side' at a glance.

A decent part of my Zdenek townread, looking to be one of my spicier reads atm, is that blatantly bad 'we should do this strategy' style posts come from newbtown from a good place (which I get in the tone of their follow ups to me in regard to it), not newbscum trying to fake content.

ehhhh

but the easiest way of fake content is a mech oriented approach

also this feels like a game which I can solve through PoE
murder/mush/Taylor/fidget/hopkirk
these are town slots

I can't back it up with stats, but I have a strong feeling that this kind of 'propose a bad strategy that they vaguely believe in then drop it' comes from town trying to be helpful rather than scum, especially for new players. I don't think new scum ever really proposes a strategy that they

know is bad

because that's so attention grabbing and has no utility if there's even a couple of experienced players to discredit it afterwards.

Thinking back to all of the LONG (offsite) arguments I've had about 'yes we should lethal someone day one' and 'no we shouldn't list out all of our reads from most to least town multiple times a day', I gut townread the behavior.

[Hopkirk]

Upsides
IF Nora town - full picture of the situation reduces odds of misunderstanding
IF Nora scum - they can easily get caught out in a direct lie here
Either way - any interaction with Noraa helps inform our reads on the slot.
No downsides

Did you feel there was a misunderstanding from either Noraa or LLD?

I felt there were things Noraa wasn't being 100% clear on and they both seemed like the kind of personalities to shout past each other in an argument so it was definitely plausible yeah.

This is really bad phrasing. The last part feels like a lamist mediator talking words and ignoring why Noraa isn't working with us. Like if Noraa is town here in what world does she respond positiviely to 'work with us' and nothing else? In worlds of scum Noraa it doesn't matter sure, but if you care about the say 10% chance town Noraa (guessing your priors here) then this is a spaghetti weak appeal with only limpyness behind it.

I thought it might work because I had a recent game where I baited an NK on N1 and the town PRs went on to play a big role in the win. But I have tried to interact with Noraa in many different places in many different ways.

I'll take a look at you again yeah. I've got at least three townreads saying you're town and you do have the kind of posting style I frequently (wrongly) gut tunnel so I want to reread you soon.

Which ones? I think I only really commented on pretty obvtown slots?

lol at this entire post but..

They townread me without a lot of good reasons and I didn't get great vibes.

..I was responding pretty directly to this, as in, I want to give Hopkirk space to respond to you and not just do what we did to Noraa agin.

100% sheeping a TR to pressure someone then? That's reasonable.

Can your explain this post? Frist 2/3 only.

it means I think you're a good player

Which of my games have you read?

Shelly/Denek/Mush/LLD/Pooky/Taylor fairly obvtown as of p27.

talk to me about denek and pooky?

Zdenek was the mech stuff in a big part then his later posting felt like he wasn't just waiting around on Norra. 685 was a nice post.
Pooky I townread a lot of the casual/happy tone around the Noraa interactions. Idk about him anymore because there's some weird un-jovial stuff that feels off, so I'll get back to you on that.

[Hopkirk]

I feel like its going to turn out that LLD's push on Hopkirk was just reaction testing like hopkirk said.

It was a pretty good one too since I think 3 people- notably Theta - jumped to agree with her. Pushing a low content slot for NAI stuff then seeing if people go along with you on something you don't agree with is a good way to catch out whether people are just agreeing with you.
This post was why I thought that btw: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12253586

hopkirk
almost the entirety of my scum lean on you is that you made a blank vote on a popular wagon
with slight influences from faking a post restriction and the way you agreed with another players reads without elaboration

and honestly the more i thought about the blank vote the less i wanted to kill you because it simply did not make sense for scum to behave that way if noraa is scum
but i am also operating under the assumption that noraa could be town in which case that would be a valid scum lean

so let me just say that i do not think you and noraa are scum together
my scum lean on you is conditional on noraa being town

The 'I am willing to kill them' really doesn't line up with what came before it or from this imo if it's literally 'they made a blank post' and you thought all of the other stuff was NAI? Are you using 'kill' in a really weak sense, or do you not really care who's first lethaled here? I really don't get your point of view here since as far as I can tell if you're town that's happy to vote me for how I interacted with the wagon then I'd expect to see you looking at the early wagon and potential bussing/avoidance a lot more and I really don't get that from you yet.

@Hopkirk counter question to town cred question. Why are you trying to look town right now if you don't care about town cred by dropping the act?

I dropped the act because two people replaced out so I wouldn't get modkilled for dropping it, and also because there were a lot of pages. I realized 'oh yeah, it's literally impossible to catch up on thirty pages of stuff and comment on it with this, I really should have saved this for a micro shouldn't I'. I could commit to it hard yeah, but then It's going to take me literally five times as long to format everything right and you can probably tell I don't want to spend my time like that.

Behavioralism. She's scum reading whoever gives her a hard time and town reads whoever doesn't. Also, I voted her way before she voted me so I can't be omgusing her, when she's omgusing me, but she keeps forgetting that.

Who would be your next vote?

I'm not sure. There's kind of like, 4-6 people I want to vote RN.
Lapsa, The guy that just replaced out. Hopkirk. Zdenek. pooky.
Maginally Theta

Pedit: I knew you'd say something like that.

Really not a fan of your POE here. Can I get some more thoughts on all of those slots?

[Hopkirk]

replying to hopkirk
i slightly lean scum on you
though i have several better targets

VOTE: adorable
i want to get a wagon on this

why do you lean scum on hopkirk? why are teh other targets better? why a vote on adorable?

hopkirk read is 1176 and elaborated on in 1457
it is a conditional read so i guess that is technically fencesitting
but at this point i would not kill them today
i would want to see what noraa is first

adorable read is 832 and was elaborated on in 1191
tayl0r read is 1169

@Theta and Vaxkiller: 1426 is interested in what you think.

i do not want to read noraa at this point
but strictly speaking
i want to believe noraa is town
but she does suspicious stuff that makes me doubt that is actually the case

So can you expand on the Noraa/Hop being different teams a bit? That's a hot take and I'm interested in why.

I don't agree that I was throwing shade at him. I was genuinely curious. I know that hopkirk generally knows what towncred is and how to get it and his switch in posting style is designed to get it.

....@Pooky confession: I don't think I can read taylor. But she seems to be try harding which is new and exciting to me.

Fortunately I'm self aware enough to recognize that I'd be actively making the game worse if I committed to actively harming my ability to talk properly. Unlike people who spend the entire game prod dodging until they get force replaced, or commit hard to other gimmicks that make them perma null I have the self awareness to realize that the gimmick had played out.

More importantly, I can recognize when a joke's played out. If I kept going it isn't any funnier than it was initially, and I wouldn't want to do it until it was played out and actively annoying people since they couldn't read my slot because of it. Knowing there was some kind of wagon (because I was egoing myself by searching mentions of Hopkirk on the site. No, I'm not telling you why...) on me is a pretty good sign that keeping to the gimmick is going to piss people off/make the game less fun for them if they want to engage with me. Making it better is a lot more valuable in overall game enjoyment than keeping it going. Those kind of people who over commit to the bit when nobody cares anymore aren't entertaining.

Even more importantly, two people had been replace out at this point so I didn't have to keep going. Why would I have kept going out of choice? Try and phrase your answer to this as an eight line set of four two line eight syllable rhyming couplets. It's harder than you think. My fingers were literally hurting a bit after about thirty lines on D1. Imagine doing hundreds in a catch up.

Not sure why you think town-Hop would continue the gimmick, very interested in the why there.

[Hopkirk]

No, to me it seemed like a contradiction. I had a thought (he is lying), but like a good truth finder I decided to directly ask him rather than just go for one explanation out of many.
His explanation was 1) unexpected and 2) Makes sense. So I'm glad I asked.
@Hopkirk, why aren't you a fan? Besides zdenek and you? tho, your read on zdenek makes no sense to me.

I thought the guy who replaced out meant Isis, so it's only 2/5 of these I don't like rather than 3/5 which is much more fine.
Can you highlight which part of the read doesn't make sense? It's much easier to explain if you point out why it doesn't make sense first.

hopkirk
almost the entirety of my scum lean on you is that you made a blank vote on a popular wagon
with slight influences from faking a post restriction and the way you agreed with another players reads without elaboration

and honestly the more i thought about the blank vote the less i wanted to kill you because it simply did not make sense for scum to behave that way if noraa is scum
but i am also operating under the assumption that noraa could be town in which case that would be a valid scum lean

so let me just say that i do not think you and noraa are scum together
my scum lean on you is conditional on noraa being town

The 'I am willing to kill them' really doesn't line up with what came before it or from this imo if it's literally 'they made a blank post' and you thought all of the other stuff was NAI? Are you using 'kill' in a really weak sense, or do you not really care who's first lethaled here? I really don't get your point of view here since as far as I can tell if you're town that's happy to vote me for how I interacted with the wagon then I'd expect to see you looking at the early wagon and potential bussing/avoidance a lot more and I really don't get that from you yet.

i mean i have shifted my vote to adorable twice now because their vote on noraa reads like either a bus or advancing an easy mislynch
also
i specifically said that i would hammer you
it would take near majority of other players voting you for me to actually join in
i was willing to kill you because i believed you to have a better then random chance of being scum then town
but i tried to make it clear that i did not really want your wagon and that other people were much more likely to be scum in my opinion

Shifting your vote doesn't clear you from a bad vote/position. I'm not accepting your offer to drop it.
So you're just going along with the majority is essentially what you're saying?
You still think I'm more likely to flip scum? Why's that.

[Hopkirk]

100% sheeping a TR to pressure someone then? That's reasonable.

I was pretty explicit about it

Fair enough, I'll take another look in a bit. Fairly easy to misread some stuff when you've got a ton of stuff to read.

well that quote got messed up somehow

p-edit
i heavily believe scum would not bus with a blank vote the way you did
in my opinion it does not make sense to do that
there is a wifom argument there but i am going to ignore that for now since very little else you had done at that point was scummy in my opinion

So what's your read on me right now? From your posts at the end of the last page it seems like you're trying to throw shade at me in a 'I'm moving off, but watch your step kiddo' style move. I noted immediately that you didn't express a clear current read on me there and feel like that could be hedging because you want to go with the flow/wait to see if other people now TR and either move back to me or drop it based on whether you can blend with gameflow. This is largely based on what else you've posted giving me the 'go with the flow' impression, including what you just said about would hammer.

[Hopkirk]

none of my votes so far have been on majority wagons
at the time i would have gone along with it because i do not have a good reason to contest lambdadelta a second time

as for your second question
i used past tense very specifically there
as i developed my read on you it turned into a conditional read for reasons i have already explained

So you've said Hop not scum if Noraa is scum. You've said it, I don't think you've explained it anywhere.
You've also said if Noraa town > Hop scum. That's not been explained and it pretty much implies reasons to not like me outside what you've said.

Assume Noraa's flipped town. Why's Hop scum there?

[Hopkirk]

Carefully Hectic, I know how much you love bolding stuff.

[Hopkirk]

So literally because I blank voted on the wagon? I'm going to want to know why you haven't given thoughts on a lot of questionable posting around that wagon from low activity posters. I'll give you a list if you can't work it out yourself, but I'd prefer to see what you come up with as part of the utility of this.

[Hopkirk]

What people assume scum would do really isn't close to what scum do in practice. Think about this, if everyone knew scum always do it then scum would stop doing it. Most of what I used to find scummy was just new townies I tunneled on. Personally I find scumslips to be more of a towntell than a scumtell tbh.

[Hopkirk]

Vault dweller...scum?

That's pretty out there. What is it in their 4 posts that has you leaning scum?

You distancing now, Swift?

Unvote;
Vote; Noraa

Looking back at the timings I don't like when this vote happened. Toogeloo didn't initially vote Noraa (or comment on it) after she made the posts that Toogeloo later comments she's 'caught scum' for making. The timing doesn't really gel unless he just fully skipped the posts (which is a possibility based on what else he's said I guess). Interested in hearing a bit more about when/why Noraa became definite scum for you Toogeloo, because I'm not convinced here that your were sincere voting since it's based on stuff that happens before your post 171. Side note, did you like VD here? They pinged me a little at this point.

When I first read my role pm, I thought it was a mod slip lol.

i think town are much more likely to read the setup tbh

You put way too much faith in town. I think the opposite actually. Town are more likely to be complacent while scum are more likely to read rules so they can put IIoA into their posts and scheme without hunting.

Vote: Pooky

Because it makes them happy. But I can get behind the Noora train. While I disagree with using the sign up thread or discord to scum hunt, it's still worth pushing.

Given you didn't push me or Zdenek around here, how much stock have you got in this?

What exactly pinged your gut? It was only 4 posts at the time, I'm curious.

I asked for expansion of reasoning for Vault dweller and never got it.

This feels like a weird thing to be your only interaction with Noraa on. Not sure how to explain it, but something about it feels like an odd angle to be engaging on.

I think the best way to get LLD to do something different is to just be done with Noraa so we can move on with our lives.

You made a lot of posts pushing for 'let's just finish this day and kill Noraa, it's inevitable and we should just do it', or words essentially to that effect. I'm having trouble understanding where this is coming from for you when you still want to catch up, people are saying do Noraa later etc. Also, you don't appear to really have reads at this point?

No one's letting LLD do whatever the fuck she wants (though I personally don't care if she does whatever the fuck she wants).

You got caught saying something you probably should have not said. No one is going to let that go. It's a great place to start the game. There are no power roles in this game, so you aren't worth protecting by anyone, town or scum. Accept your fate, start working with us on who you'll pass the scroll to
and why, so that that person can start formulating a plan that works with town's will as well.

I don't really get the mindset you're in when making this point? The second paragraph is tonally off.
Can you specify which thing Noraa did that you didn't like? I'm fairly sure I know what you mean, but It's worth clarifying in case you're just saying it, since I don't

think

you've said it directly.

You're a detriment to town's win condition this game, Noraa. You're just too stubborn to realize it. There is 0% chance you live past flip 1. It's increasingly worse that talking to you is pointless because no one else exists outside of LLD to you.

Again, this feels off when taken in the context of Toogeloo's limited engagement with the thread.

I'll see you all tomorrow.

Woah, you should be spending 'tomorrow' (now today) with your family instead of using your electronic devices. For shame *shakes fist*

[Hopkirk]

Ok MURDERCAT can be town. The posts have a much more consistent POV and sincere/natural thought process on Noraa and the surrounding issues when I take the ISO as a whole instead of individual posts.

ok lets sort those slots and loop back to noraa later on in the day. people are wayyyy too confident for page 10. this is not a good push.

I mean, I am using the wagon to sort others as well. I think it will be very useful for that.

Did you ever do this or nah?

I know I've just been going with the flow, but here's some of my hot takes. I don't understand all the tip toeing, this isn't like a normal setup where town has to stop talking once we flip someone. There's still scenarios where Noraa flips town and I'd rather have time after that first Noraa "flip" and after we have more info to come to a decision about flips 2 and 3. Also this is like the most fun setup to get miselimed in so I don't really understand why town Noraa would be so upset, but whatever. I think odds of hitting 2 scum day 1 are higher if we flip Noraa scum and get LLD confirmed early than if we try to go backdoor, and I think if we flip 2 scum today we win outright. I don't think town Noraa venges LLD out of spite. If this is town Noraa I want to know sooner rather than later.

Town Noraa probably does get this frustrated but I'm not convinced scum Noraa doesn't fake it and we 100% have to flip Noraa at this point regardless. So Noraa if you actually are town please take a step back from the game and come back ready to find scum instead of just yelling at LLD.

This sounds like Noraa is just an angry emotional player. I'd be run up half my games with this standard. Do you not believe the case?

I'm currently at about 70% chance of Noraa scum. The problem is that Noraa is an emotional player and did have a very strong emotional reaction. But I also respect her scum game enough to believe that she would use that in her favor and she recently said that she fakes townslips in all her scum games.

Bell are you coaching Noraa in the scum PT you sly dog you? :3

I'm willing to roll with Bell and Noraa being lockscum based on this just for memes

Theres a thing called luck. Luck played in big time that game. My partner accidentally nokilled and that ultimately lead to our victory. Without that along with another player's lurking due to rl, you really think I could've won that game?

Noraa not taking credit for a win looks bad to me

why is murder town btw, entrance doesn't really ping either way

I'm town for immediately jumping on Noraa with no remorse when she flips scum, but also because memes

[Hopkirk]

Atm I'm not even convinced It's Noraa scum since gamevibes feel more like 'scum coasting to not rock the boat and enjoying drama'. I'll keep y'all updated as thoughts progress.

I’ve now read over 50+ pages of this game but everytime, I believe I’m finally caught up, there’s at least 10 more. So what I think so far is Mush, LLD. Isis and Titus for town. I really don’t know who’s scum yet. I will probably be useless until D2 or 3, so I might just sheep Mush/Titus until I get some clarify.

Three of the more obv-obv townpicks is good. Not commenting on Noraa whatsoever in the entrance I kind of like tbh. I want more here but for in the five posts so far I'm not upset with this slot.

Frankly speaking - this game's a garbage so far.

To an extent of people openly claiming scum and getting away with that.

VOTE: Noraa

This slot is garbage so far. This is what I'd call a bad naked vote. Especially if Noraa flips town.

Next post I should probably catch up, then back to isos.

[Hopkirk]

does anyone else feel like alpine's reads are pretty artificial?

for example he says "ever since this post i guess i scumread noraa"
a townie would say "ever since rereading i scumread noraa"

Feels like talking style, got any meta to show it isn't?
I liked the effortposting when she was going through all the game and giving her thoughts. It had a sincere tone, and I kind of liked her towards the end of my interactions with her yesterday.

Titus replaces VaultDweller! Give her the welcome of warmest.

Welcome Titus
Thanks for subbing in. It's an intimidating game with a lot of players and pages, short deadlines, and a massive amount of spectators. Kind of scary to play in a game with so many people watching and judging, especially when you think about who they are. I mean look at that spectator list:

PenguinPower- I can only imagine how much they're roasting us all right now. The spectator topic is probably full of stuff like 'The best way to resolve our problem with getting sign ups in the newbie queue is probably to let some of these guys sign up as newbies. What does Hopkirk even think he's doing lol.'

skitter30- Highly underappreciated player and spectator imo.

Andycyca- Too cunning to be caught signing up to spectate in the actual sign ups thread, but I still caught you. Don't feel too bad about it, I'm a highly skilled paranormal investigator

Gypyx- Incredibly cunning player. He knows how much Finland trusts me and is probably spectating the game purely for those codes. Naturally we manage to thwart those fiendish schemes of his every Saturday morning, but you've got to respect that level of dedication. In fact I'm willing to give you Sweden's as a reward for the persistence: 8765 5442 9499 1739

Cabd- What can I even say about this guy. I considered subbing out when I saw that spectate sign up. What a player. Just wow.

fferyllt- Cabd's sidekick and possible apprentice may seem non threatening at first, but don't be fooled. I feel like any day now she's going to show us all that she's taken everything Cabd's taught us as vastly improved on it. Then we'll all be sorry. We'll all see.

Syryana- I think we all remember this guy from his classic post back in the 'stop fakeclaim as town!: the case for

lethal

all liars'. Can you believe it's already been 1789 days 14 hours? Wow, time sure flies.
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... ct[]=20972
I can barely imagine how he'd feel about Noraa if he were in this game.

Ydrasse-

petapan- I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure who this is, and I'm fairly sure none of the other spectators are Hectic alts. Got a strong Hectic alt read on this slot.

[Hopkirk]

like how much more of this trolling are we allowing TS to do

By trolling do you mean 'scum making posts' or actual trolling trolling?
I don't really get your problem with her in general, could you go over it a bit more?

254 this feels like it was premeditated
i mean seriously it feels like this exchange between noraa and adorable was planned out ahead of time
why is a self-proclaimed newbie attacking adorable and effectively daring them to vote themselves
and not attacking hopkirk who had placed a blank vote
or unowen who had an rvs vote

Yes exactly. Noraa is not a fool, if she fears that she has been caught and is 100% going down then I believe her instinct would be to perform some sort of distancing with one of her partners. The highlighting of the Adorable post was pretty strong considering the context of Noraa getting swarmed that was going on. "Theres so many questions that I get when I see this post that I am definitely SRing you for it. I think I'd actually like to place my vote here bc I want to put some pressure on you." sounds like a very calculated statement, not naturally worded at all. Noraa later follows up with declaring she would give the scroll to Adorable too. However at no point does Noraa reach out to other players to support the Adorable vote, which I think she would if town and convinced she had identified a clearly scummy player hopping on the wagon. That she has this reaction to Adorable but is apparently not alarmed about the way I have lazily sat on her wagon (unlike both shelly and taylor) has further suggested to me that something is up.

On Adorable, she is busy and it is not clear that she has completely caught up so perhaps there will be better information later. But the vote was awkward as anything, independent of Noraa's alignment. Noraa is right that the whole "I don't understand why Noraa is defensive?" was a scummy question to ask. The implication is clear but instead of just stating a suspicion and acting on it there is a smoke screen of questioning to build up to the vote. Then immediately in 277 the facade drops, Adorable thinks Noraa is sus and declares she would give the scroll to Noraa. This looks like scum attempting to find their way onto a wagon.

I sure don't like Unowen's play around the Noraa wagon.

This is Taylor being 95% Confident I'm Scum:

Spoiler:

but you'd still rather hit LLD with the scroll instead of Pooky-Scum? yea ok taylor good story

i want to hit both of you. but i only get one shot, and lld is a disaster for town, while you just arent a member of town.

people who are scum:
pookyx10000

im 95% confident in saying that pooky is scum and isis is town here.

ooky is a strange one to read. i think the best, perhaps the only way to read pooky is by ignoring most of the words pooky says, and instead look at what pooky is trying to say, and gaze into pooky's soul. in this case my read isnt so much based on specific posts pooky made, but the way pooky has oriented himself in the thread.

1. pooky is canadian. canadians are scum
2. pooky is being more aggressive than town!pooky ever is
3. there are some interactions i would expect from town!pooky that im not seeing
4. pooky is not scumhunting, but is being manipulative, and has attached himself to the hip of the self proclaimed town leader (and fellow canadian, see point 1 above).

After I offer her 1:1 in this post:

im actually thinking

Taylor - > Pooky -> Noraa would be a pretty damn good scroll pass

it's radio silence from Taylor. She knows T - > P -> N is a disaster for her scum team and she just disengages and starts poking at someone else.

if she was actually town and 95% confident she'd be all aboard

There is a difference between town mindset this game and scum mindset.

Town WANT to trade 1:1 for scum and blow them up to kingdom come.

Scum WANT to survive and hide until endgame.

You trying to spin this as "suicidal stupidity" is downright ludicrious.

@Pooky - town Taylor would never accept this because she's getting the first lethal and you're getting the second. If she 90% scumreads you then it's a terrible trade for her to trade her own life and a strong townread (who scum you would scroll) as opposed to giving you first or third lethal. Town her would definitely never consider this over Pooky-Taylor-X and this feels kind of obvious? Like neither alignment Taylor would consider it a good offer, and I feel it's hard to miss that it's objectively a terrible offer from her POV, and also worse than the other virtually identical offer.

I'm not bothering to recap thoughts on the utter chaos that happened in my absence. If I'm skipping questions, get to me before 12AM CST.

I'll tell you my reads are mostly the same, except I'm willing to stuff Hopkirk into null. (I don't like the content, but the readable posts help. I'll need more time to determine my thoughts on what the content says for Hopkirk's alignment.)

I do like Titus. The aggression mixed into the curiosity is pinging me as town -- it reminds me of my high pressure pushes.

I'll also say that I think Pooky is super scummy and while I would love to save Tayl0r or doomed Noraa from the curse, Pooky is a great trade because they've been dodging deep inspection because of the town leader (who I think has been pocketed) running interference all game long. Noraa is doomed regardless, and Tayl0r's going to be hard to fit into everyone's townbloc and could create issues with town coalescence as a result, so we get game progression and easier reads for the folks who aren't getting what I'm getting from Tayl0r and Noraa.

Here's a funny little thing about Pooky: we've discussed the dangers of leashing scroll-passes, we decided that a Noraa leash was an acceptable compromise (well, not for me but I agree with the logic of the argument if I was scumreading Noraa), and then Pooky proposes a fully locked down chain of scroll-passing. I'm not sure if this is more likely to come from town who is not paying much attention to what they're doing, or more likely to be gambiting scum to retain their safe position, but I don't like it either way. (Another possibility is that it's scum playing a double layered gambit, presuming that Tayl0r has a spicier, townier target she'll take first if she does accept the scroll. See the Tayl0r vs LLD thing.)

Nah, I don't accept your locktown read on me. You're going to have to try harder before I allow you to townread me.

[Hopkirk]

@Fidget - are you a public alt? I'm wondering who you are since you said I've got a 'very good scumgame' and I haven't rolled scum in like two and a half years and 20-30 games at this point.

@Noraa - I'm online and going through stuff and want to interact with you a bit in real time. Idk if I'm starting to buy that 'hard effortposting Noraa' on the last five or so pages feels like town. Can you describe how you feel scum you would react in this scenario (basically to this whole game). literally just shoot me up with a post full of AOE? Also, please don't shoot Lady. I know you don't like their play this game, but it's a town slot and really doesn't have the influence you think.

[Hopkirk]

So priorities

- Bell/Adorable/Flea/VS/Fidget/Unowen ISOs.
- Hard reread of Pooky and Theta to see if I can get the mindset. Current impression is slots that I want to gut sort as town.
- Decide if we actually kill Noraa or not today. Hi Noraa.

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk - I hope the spectators like me.

Yeah, they're a scary crowd. Any of them you're specifically terrified by?

VD is actually a very short iso and I like the later end of it from a town POV actually. This feels t.o.w.n https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12251872

Are you seeing Pooky vs Taylor as TvT or TvS Titus?

[Hopkirk]

@Titus - not sure if anyone directly said this, but all flips happen after the third lethal. We don't get to see what the first flip is before they scroll someone else or they scroll someone else else.

[Hopkirk]

That wasn't in relation to anything specific. I just noticed you'd mentioned something that sounded like you weren't aware of it, and wanted to make sure you were. Obviously there's a big difference in flipping someone and knowing what they are then updating reads based on that vs 3 simultaneous flips where there's two chances for reads to update.

Got a read on Fidget?

[Hopkirk]

Hey MURDERCAT, Hectic knows how jealous I am of his adorable cat, no point trying to pretend I'm not, so I'm going to be blunt. If you want to sheep me from now on instead of Lady I've got a slot open.

After a reread my current read of Pooky is easier to express in a picture than words. Should be fairly self explanatory:
[hide][/hide]

You can get in another one of my pockets if you want buddy.

[Hopkirk]

Ok I've realized I want to do other stuff today so I might get back to this later.
I'm going to vote one of these people. Hm.

Toogeloo
Unowen
Fidget
Bell
Noraa

VOTE: Fidget

[Hopkirk]

To clarify my POE is closer to 10-12 than it is 5. Those are just the ones I was thinking of voting right now (less so Noraa

right now

but they're more the names I can see myself voting over the next two days)

It's largely that the tone feels under the radary/uncontroversial in general, but there's a couple of specific things that pinged me.

My understanding is that scum get one day vig you can’t shoot a scroll holder.
We get three flips at once.
That occur over a 7 day voting phase.
Then 2 baton passes for an additional 6 days of content.
3 flips repeat.

No scum NK?

You have a pretty good understanding of the setup, up until the part where you question whether or not scum has a NK. What is your intention behind the last line?

I trust that Noraa received several votes for that? So I'll hold off for a moment.

UNVOTE:

Ok let's clarify something rq. I asked Cabd to bring me along to spectate the next game he was going to spectate. He said he was gonna spectate this game and that I was in it already. I was at the time, not even aware of this games existence. I checked out this game and saw it was modded by hectic and was like ooooo sounds fun! so then I directly inned. I don't read setup. Everyone says that I town slip as scum. So to be completely honest, a lot of the "townslips" aren't even town slips for me cuz I legitimately don't pay attention to the OPs. Pooky since you referenced Mafiasunny, I was a mafia goon that game and I legitimately asked my partners in the pt if there were town prs. Dumb question ig you could say and considering my partners were voyeur and Roleblocker, it should've been pretty obvious there were prs. I didn't read any of the setup in that game either and submitted actions in the pt when the mod directly said you had to pm him. I literally do not read OPs of games with setups I've never played in before(that was my first mini theme). I want to reference two different games as well but they're ongoing so I can't but regardless I only skim OPs and sometimes I dont even do that. In this case, I did not read anything believe it or not.

I do not understand. Why did you feel the need to ask how many scum are in the setup rather than looking? If you thought this setup was closed, why would one of the designers/reviewers (Isis) play it?

I am playing with the idea you're just easy elimbait, but what an odd question to ask.

So two things here. First, this kind of reads as someone waiting to see how much traction it gets before deciding to vote and/or bus.
Second, less Fidget based, but something Fidget picked up here is that Bell's kind of doing a fake townslip there too with the 'not knowing if scum have a nightkill' comment. Feels like that didn't really get a reaction. Hey Fidget, can you go a little more into where your solid Bell townread comes from because it feels like you handed it out quickly, and it feels a little (not completely but a little) at odds with your Noraa perspective.

I like Bell's tone, but pointing that out ruins the Noraa coaching/bussing joke so I'll shelve that for later.

Taylor - town for realizing that this isn't AI due to previous experience playing with me
Murder - null bc he didn't realize it wasn't AI even tho he has played with me before but the paranoia towards shelly is very town bc when playing with shelly, it is nerve-racking trying to determine if you're being absolutely fooled or if you are judging too much and she's actually town. I feel this paranoia all the way after one scum game with her where she told me about all her evil plans in the scum pt and after one town game where I was fooled by her big time. Something that town pings + something that scum pings cancel out and so I am null but prolly town lean still.
Pooky - town because I believe he believes in his SR on me and scum wouldn't bc scum knows who their scum buddies are.
Lexi - null. I still dislike the discord argument. Lexi's been more eager to push me than Pooky has which tbh is a bit strange considering normally the one that starts it is the biggest on pushing it :/
Isis - town because the tone is towny and I relate to some of those posts in that I would say something similar in her position
Bell - townie confusion. could be faked but I'm willing to believe it is real for now
Shelly - scum for misrepping people and also for throwing shade at pooky yet never voting pooky.
Vaultdweller - scum. can't quite put my finger on what's wrong here but I'm def getting scum pings.
Hopkirk - null but lean scum. dislike the jumping on all biggest wagons for no reason.

You

really

don't want to die, do you?

I'm not sure how natural Fidget's progression reads since they had a problem with Noraa, but got a much bigger problem with her after it became clear pretty much everyone did.

I don't like that you went offline just when I wanted to interact with you Noraa

[Hopkirk]

My definition of 'vibing' is more 'would I give the person single point finger guns (both hands obviously) if this was irl mafia'.

Also, to clarify my position on Noraa- it's currently 'likely to flip scum at maybe 60% odds, but even if those were 30% odds I'd still be happy giving it the third lethal.' I'm just assuming we make her the final scrolled atm.

Are you seeing Pooky vs Taylor as TvT or TvS

wanna comment on this: I TR'd both pooky/taylor and am pretty sold on that being a town conflict
pooky was one of the drivers of noraa wagon, pushed scum!bell with me
taylor is always town imo, no way they would WK a scum buddy in that position

pooky failing to engage with others and hyperfocusing on taylor reads pretty townie counterintuitively as scum is aiming to shade as many people as possible since they have no proper nightkill

I'm at TvT for it now too after the Pooky reconsideration yeah.

Did you ever do this or nah?

Yes. I'm still in the "don't share too much" mode because I think I'm pretty widely town read and I'm likely a contender for a scroll when scum is hit. So as long as that's true and I've expressed who I want to flip and others agree (Noraa), I'm chilling.

You definitely don't get hit before Lady and a couple of other people it's probably best not to mention imo. I'm also very opposed to the idea of not sharing reads to avoid a NK. If we just solid townblock and do a POE today that's much better than the 'stay low until later in the game' when you're honestly more likely to eat a scroll since we'll have lost some of the bigger voices.

Given the scroll on Noraa is the better strat for dealing with the slot, we still need to pick an actual Lethal. I'd like as many second opinions as I can get on that, so any thoughts would be useful.

I'm assuming you hard townread me right now though right?

[Hopkirk]

I'm happy with a Uno lethal right now, but I'm going to have to take a quick detour on Fidget.

I'm looking at this for the town/deepwolf block:
Hopkirk
Lady
Taylor
Vaxkiller
Mush
Zdenek
MURDERCAT
Shelly
PookyTheMagicalBear
Titus
Theta

If you're one of the other nine then

[Hopkirk]

Pooky - Is that last comment about my spectator list a Mastina or a Hectic?

No, to me it seemed like a contradiction. I had a thought (he is lying), but like a good truth finder I decided to directly ask him rather than just go for one explanation out of many.
His explanation was 1) unexpected and 2) Makes sense. So I'm glad I asked.
@Hopkirk, why aren't you a fan? Besides zdenek and you? tho, your read on zdenek makes no sense to me.

Hi Bell, I asked you to follow up and be more specific on which parts didn't make sense. Not sure if you were getting to this or missed it, but want to bring it up again.

[Hopkirk]

Sorry, why is uno scum?

Can you give him an iso and post some thoughts?

Hopkirk
Lady
Taylor
Vaxkiller
Mush
Zdenek
MURDERCAT
Shelly
PookyTheMagicalBear
Titus
Theta

seems fine but the other nine seems like the lurker block?

A little, it's just I like a lot of the more postery players. There's probably a deepwolf in those 10 somewhere.

For reference: lurkers/unsortable are

Gloria Cleary
Flea The Magician
Lapsa
Adorable

Push block
Toogeloo
Unowen
Fidget
Bell
Noraa

1 deepwolf + 1 lurker + Noraa + 2 of (Toogeloo/Unowen/Bell/Fidget). Could be 2 deepwolves, 3 in push block, or 2 lurkers or something. I need a lot more for a solid solve, but this is where i'm vibing around.

[Hopkirk]

Pooky - Is that last comment about my spectator list a Mastina or a Hectic?

I don't know who Mastina is

@Pooky - town Taylor would never accept this because she's getting the first lethal and you're getting the second. If she 90% scumreads you then it's a terrible trade for her to trade her own life and a strong townread (who scum you would scroll) as opposed to giving you first or third lethal. Town her would definitely never consider this over Pooky-Taylor-X and this feels kind of obvious? Like neither alignment Taylor would consider it a good offer, and I feel it's hard to miss that it's objectively a terrible offer from her POV, and also worse than the other virtually identical offer.

This depends on your game-state read of Noraa - is Noraa currently locked in as 3rd elim or not? Do we need some kind of pseudo vote to decide this?

Also you fail to account for T-Swift's feelings about me - if she is 95% SR me and I'm a higher influence slot in that I'm driving a lot of the action - it absolutely makes sense for her to 1:1 trade me out if she has little to no traction on my slot. - Look at the feeling Isis had about LLD in early d1 - if you're a townie and you see someone who you consider almost certainly scum being townread all over the place and driving people out left and right - you want to trade your life for theirs early to avoid them doing more damage.

The issue is this
If Taylor is town and thinks you're scum then the actual order would be

Taylor-Pooky-One of Taylor's townreads

That's a shit bargain for Taylor. If she dies she absolutely wants to be in the middle.

Like nobody would EVER accept that because it's literally the worst possible outcome except for hitting 3 town since she dies and the mafia get the effective nightkill. It's far superior for her to kill someone she scumreads with the first slot. I especially don't get why you think Taylor as a player would like the deal based on the personality read I'm forming around her. What you SHOULD be asking her is whether she'd accept Pooky-Taylor-X since that's a deal town would consider taking. Choosing not to make that deal ensures she'll never take it as either alignment.

You're also definitely overestimating your game impact.

[Hopkirk]

@Bell - put your vote down somewhere, thanks.

You definitely don't get hit before Lady and a couple of other people it's probably best not to mention imo. I'm also very opposed to the idea of not sharing reads to avoid a NK. If we just solid townblock and do a POE today that's much better than the 'stay low until later in the game' when you're honestly more likely to eat a scroll since we'll have lost some of the bigger voices.

I'm in the town block already though, no? I do plan to share my opinions as they become relevant. The thing about Noraa is that there's enough there for me to think she flips town some of the time, I don't think town Noraa spite passes, and LLD could legitimately still be scum. My plan for LLD is "hope she dies early, if so she's town." If scum Noraa passes to town LLD I fully believe we go S>T>S on day 1 and if we go S>T>S on day 1 I believe we are in such a commanding position that we win outright regardless of one town read player being gone. So I don't really see why we are trying to milk this. Worse case scenario is town Noraa passes to town LLD who I think manages to hit scum for sure, so we still go T>T>S which is not that bad because we still deny scum a kill (though they would be happy with LLD being gone off course).

So we're shooting X-Y-Noraa. Who do you want to be X (and Y if relevant). We need to decide on who's first shot, and as many trustable voices helping me sort is really useful.

i'd swap fidget -> zdenek in your solve but the rest of this seems quite solid

p-edit: why re you so confident in lld's ability to find scum

I mean he could just take the deepwolf slot right?

[Hopkirk]

I never see posts like the one fidget just made come from town. Ever.
Why do I have so many scum reads this game.

Hey Bell, how come you didn't take me up on my offer for a Fidget wagon?

[Hopkirk]

The issue is this
If Taylor is town and thinks you're scum then the actual order would be

Taylor-Pooky-One of Taylor's townreads

That's a shit bargain for Taylor. If she dies she absolutely wants to be in the middle.

Like nobody would EVER accept that because it's literally the worst possible outcome except for hitting 3 town since she dies and the mafia get the effective nightkill. It's far superior for her to kill someone she scumreads with the first slot. I especially don't get why you think Taylor as a player would like the deal based on the personality read I'm forming around her. What you SHOULD be asking her is whether she'd accept Pooky-Taylor-X since that's a deal town would consider taking. Choosing not to make that deal ensures she'll never take it as either alignment.

You're also definitely overestimating your game impact.

X is already fixed at Noraa

I might be over-estimating game impact sure.

I think I see your issue.
Imagine town Taylor looking at the scenario. Let's say she 95% scumreads you and 95% TRs Lady.

If she gets the lethal
Taylor-Pooky-Lady (as scum you does NOT shoot Noraa)

If you get the lethal
Pooky-Taylor-Noraa

Why does she even take option 1?

Would you be happy with Pooky lethal, scroll to Taylor who insta passed to Lady? From town Taylor's perspective it's literally this and that's not a good trade.
Really want you to comment a yes/no on the above point.

[Hopkirk]

@hopkirk: just did.

If you don’t specifically ask me to sheep you, I probably won’t sheep you,

My problem isn't that you're not sheeping me, it's that you expressed a bad read on the slot when I'm not happy with the interactions between the pair of you, then when given the opportunity to join a wagon there you didn't join in.

You want to sheep now?

So we're shooting X-Y-Noraa. Who do you want to be X (and Y if relevant). We need to decide on who's first shot, and as many trustable voices helping me sort is really useful.

is 3rd scroll fixed at Noraa or not? you seem to be one foot each world right now Hopkirk

Third scroll is fixed on Noraa UNLESS 2nd scroll is scum since scum doesn't pass to Noraa no matter what alignment Noraa is.
I think this is what you're missing in my posts about Taylor/you, since it's consistent with everything I'm saying.

[Hopkirk]

So we're shooting X-Y-Noraa.

I guess so but I don't see why my logic is bad? Like there is a good chance of T>S>T here.

Who do you want to lethal first right now?

[Hopkirk]

Not really. You’re kind of like somebody who wants to control the game but I don’t respond well to what you’re doing. So I’m tactfully side stepping you.

I'd like to wagon someone yes. I'm not clear what you mean by 'wants to control the game' outside of that, and why you don't want to follow onto that wagon if you actually want that wagon.

[Hopkirk]

I think I see your issue.
Imagine town Taylor looking at the scenario. Let's say she 95% scumreads you and 95% TRs Lady.

If she gets the lethal
Taylor-Pooky-Lady (as scum you does NOT shoot Noraa)

If you get the lethal
Pooky-Taylor-Noraa

Why does she even take option 1?

Would you be happy with Pooky lethal, scroll to Taylor who insta passed to Lady? From town Taylor's perspective it's literally this and that's not a good trade.
Really want you to comment a yes/no on the above point.

is this a troll i already promised to shoot noraa and theres no way taylor thought of that because she didnt respond to the offer that way. now you're just putting words in her mouth.

Pooky, if you're scum then YOU WOULD LIE ABOUT WHO YOU WOULD SHOOT. Why would Taylor accept the offer if SHE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM since scum you WOULDN'T shoot Noraa. Are you trying to say that scum you would still shoot Noraa? I outright don't believe you would.

Would you accept
Taylor-Pooky-Noraa.

Yes or no?

[Hopkirk]

I guess so but I don't see why my logic is bad? Like there is a good chance of T>S>T here.

Your logic gets stronger the bigger the chance of Noraa town.

So we're shooting X-Y-Noraa.

I guess so but I don't see why my logic is bad? Like there is a good chance of T>S>T here.

Who do you want to lethal first right now?

Noraa, because of the 30/40% chance she's town

I thought you were in the Noraa 3rd camp, ok then nevermind I guess.

If I wanted that wagon I would be trying to make that wagon, no?

Why don't you want that wagon?

I’m currently trying to wagon Shelly because she’s scum this game,
Would you like to join my wagon?

Can you see the difference between 'want to wagon one of your top scumreads' (me to you) and 'want to wagon someone in your townpool?' (you to me here)

[Hopkirk]

I can get why you don't want to go full reads MURDER, but can you give me a couple of likely scum if you've got any? Like thoughts on Unowen/Bell/Toogeloo or something. Slots scum doesn't shoot.

[Hopkirk]

Go find the other scum then there are 4 left to find.

Also, I’m not sure on LLD’s schedule.

Can you do something?

[Hopkirk]

Tell me how obvtown I am Bell.

[Hopkirk]

Why do I feel like 75% of the vig shots are going to be emotional decisions.

[Hopkirk]

Pooky, if you're scum then YOU WOULD LIE ABOUT WHO YOU WOULD SHOOT. Why would Taylor accept the offer if SHE THINKS YOU'RE SCUM since scum you WOULDN'T shoot Noraa. Are you trying to say that scum you would still shoot Noraa? I outright don't believe you would.

Would you accept
Taylor-Pooky-Noraa.

Yes or no?

no I'm saying Taylor literally didnt think of that because if she did she would've said that.

She kind of says it later on in your argument, but not early on. I can pull that up if it would affect your thoughts on the matter, but won't bother if it wouldn't.

I really don't get why you're ready Taylor as someone who'd be happy with it on principle. They feel like a pretty lone wolf player who cares most about their own role in the game a lot more than 'I'd be happy to die if it marginally improves things'.

[Hopkirk]

Currently I'm not the biggest fan of lady. Don't get me wrong, I think she's obvtown here, the bit I don't like is the whole 'look at me' ego thing.

Fortunately, I have a strategy to address this. I know I was planning to do more stuff tomorrow, but I feel like a much more valuable use of my time (in addition hopefully rather than instead of) is going to be reading up on lady a bit.

I've already found the perfect straying point. I plan to have a quick deep dive into lady's thoughts and perspectives on relationships. This feels like a great starting point where we can begin to build a better, more cooperative and sustainable working relationship.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm hoping to get out of this, and there's several hundred posts worth of content that I'll need to get through, but I'm fully expecting it to be both incredibly productive and only about half as creepy as it sounds.

[Hopkirk]

I should probably clarify I don't mean 'post about it' or anything, I just want to get inside your head.

Good old Hectic told me a story the other day about a fabled mafiascum player that used to stalk people online, reading all of their posts in non mafia threads, finding their other online accounts, and trying to trace them back to their irl identity. They'd follow that up by reading anything on their facebook and other social media. I assume they made fake accounts to try and get access to more data. They'd read everything they could about these fellow scummers and try and get as far into their heads as they could so they could work out whether

this kind of person

would make the posts they were making based on the model they formed of them. Call it method acting, high quality detective work, or an excessive amount of work to put into a mafia game, I've been told it worked. I don't want to disprove that, so I'm not going to look into it. The core of all this is that they'd try and wear the metaphorical skin of other players to try and live their point of view. It sounded fun and I've always wanted to give it a try myself.

So yeah, weird to do for a townread, but let's face it, has anyone here not wanted to 'wear someone's skin' without actually going through all the trouble? I think I can speak for Bell, Pooky, and Theta when I say none of us can.

[Hopkirk]

I'm not sure what you think buddying is, but even if you've got an idea then you've still got a thing or two to learn about it buddy.

LL isn't even the third biggest personality in this thread. She just wants to think she is. That's why I'm sending all sorts of subtle, thinly veiled mean comments at her. Pooky absolutely didn't put me up to it.

(I'm not sure how you read those last two posts as serious btw, that's kind of weird)

[Hopkirk]

Legit though, I would consider reading through your submissions to the following threads to get a better read on you this game if you're okay with that Noraa:

- Relationships
- US Politics
- Post ITT to get an anime girl avatar
- Post itt and ill guess your 16types personality
- Noraa's Lair of Cuteness and more
- Face with a name

If you can link me specifically to any political debates/other non mafia stuff where you get pissed off and I can see how you react to it then that would help, but no pressure apart from all the obvious pressure.

[Hopkirk]

Ok, I'll see if I can find any pics of Hectic's pets that he's posted in mafia games, that sounds like a good thing to add to your lair of cuteness.

What if you posted something in face with a name then Pooky started roasting it? That might be able to create a multipage angry argument? Worth a shot.

pedit - Hectic

did

tell me the story (I embellished a little) and it sounds fun if really not effective

[Hopkirk]

(phoneposting so only posting adjustments to the nominal thread, not workings)

Yeah, I don't want to lethal noraa at this point.
Pooky/Taylor I read as TvT.

(Unowen/Fidget/Toogeloo/Bell) - anyone want to make a wagon while we have time?

[Hopkirk]

I have some DND in about five minutes, so won't be able to get into this properly until later.

So anyone who doesn't want a Noraa lethal at this point and isn't trying to create a counterwagon isn't putting that much effort into avoiding it.

(phoneposting so only posting adjustments to the nominal thread, not workings)

Yeah, I don't want to lethal noraa at this point.
Pooky/Taylor I read as TvT.

(Unowen/Fidget/Toogeloo/Bell) - anyone want to make a wagon while we have time?

Really don’t want to hand Noraa the scroll like ever.

They’ve given us everything we need to read them correctly if we still can’t see that they’re town this game than this town sucks.

If you no longer want to kill Noraa then don’t you think these posts point to Bell town?

Not really, mafia can choose to townread Noraa here with little cost, and Bell doesn't strike me as trying to form an alternative in actions, just in words. He's also got poor interactions with a lot of my other scumpool tier players. I still need to reread Bell though, so expect more detail eventually.

@Hopkirk - Do you enjoy kite flying?

Be direct with your words or they aren't worth much.

[Hopkirk]

I'm up for four wagons here. I'm not really up for a vanity wagon with two days to go.

pedit - Strahd doesn't stand a chance.

[Hopkirk]

No plans this evening so will be posting after work.

My vote is wrong on the VC, should be for Fidget but VOTE: Unowen

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Toogeloo

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Toogeloo

Vanity voting when time is running low? interesting

Which one of you/Pooky/Noraa would you prefer I vote?

MURDERCAT expressed a scumread on this slot and it's got one of the best two or three levels of scum equity in the game. Want to join me?

[Hopkirk]

Likelihood of flipping scum. Care to join on? It's a terrible slot that's blatantly run out of contributions the moment Noraa wagon steam died down.

[Hopkirk]

Unvote;
Vote: Noraa

See you all Monday.

Scum

Have fun with DnD Hopkirk!

No, I am pretty much creating an alternative wagon and me not interacting well with other scum reads when you don't have flips is just weird thinking. Especially when, I'm town so like, what the heck kind of weird interactions could I be having with them?

Thanks, we got about into the castle. Death clerics are very fun.

The weird interactions are in terms of the reads between the three of you just feeling off, and the lack of any wagoning going on in the subset. I'll substantiate when I do isos this evening (if I still get that impression)

I'm up for four wagons here. I'm not really up for a vanity wagon with two days to go.

pedit - Strahd doesn't stand a chance.

You could always try making an argument?
I was waiting for your ISO so I had something to engage with, but if you're floating my death before doing that then some sort of justification of your thoughts would be good.

If you tried obvtowning then you wouldn't need to be defensive.

Honestly, consider my vote on anyone other than LLD or Pooky.

PEdit: Nope.

Why is Pooky exempted for you?

LLD hasn't been here but looking at the activity overview, I'll suppose that's RL.

I'm not sure what you think buddying is, but even if you've got an idea then you've still got a thing or two to learn about it buddy.

LL isn't even the third biggest personality in this thread. She just wants to think she is. That's why I'm sending all sorts of subtle, thinly veiled mean comments at her. Pooky absolutely didn't put me up to it.

(I'm not sure how you read those last two posts as serious btw, that's kind of weird)

I don't follow this post. Is this a joking post or real?

Can we flash wagon Lapsa?

You're ok with a Noraa wagon first but not Pooky or Taylor. Why? You also seem ok with a Lapsa wagon.

What is your intended order of scrolls?

@Bottom of 79 - Toog could be scum looking to put scum earlier in the scroll order.

There were several jokes in the post but the main points were serious.
-That's not buddying
-LL isn't as big a thread influence as they feel like imo, stall on wagon feels like the gamestate mafia were going for not 'nobody wants to challenge LL'

[Hopkirk]

Can I get a quick read on Flea from anyone?

[Hopkirk]

Ride or die 1v1s where the other person is guaranteed to shoot you if they get lethaled are technically 'wifom' but in practice feel like a terrible strat.

VOTE: Toogeloo

Why do you keep voting vanity wagons?

You know how we need a wagon?

VOTE: Toogeloo

Whya re we voting toogs?

It's a good wagon. I did a little case earlier on about why I didn't like the slot and their return amounted to about twenty posts worth of spinning their wheels doing nothing in the thread then returning to the Noraa vote.

Hey Murder, can you scumcase Vax? Toogeloo and Lapsa are in my POE. Pooky feels good. Shelly I townread in the same way I light townread a lot of scum. Vax I have a townlean leftover from Isis but don't really remember any of Vax's posting.

[Hopkirk]

If we are not doing Noraa first then I would lean more on Unowen is scum which was mentioned earlier. And also I wanted to add on #101 what Theta said are my thoughts exactly. On #680 it looked like Isis also had the same thoughts as me and Theta which makes me think Isis is also probably town with Theta. On #708 Unowen said Isis is suspicious and I would have assumed town Unowen would have picked up on what Theta was saying on #101 and would have also assumed Isis also picked up on this too and would have leaned town on Isis. This makes me think scum did not know town were asked to confirm that scum had daytalk.

I also saw somewhere that doing this t>s>t is bad and I'm assuming town would have to pass the scroll to a town read if the first scroll is handed to a town player.

I saw on Noraa's recent reads list she put me as newbtown and I find this strange she still leaves her vote on me.

@Theta You never responded to #1658 and your theory looks really weird. shelly said on #347 Noraa hates bussing.

I was going to ask why this is town but the genuine optimism is heartwarming.

[Hopkirk]

There's nothing I like in the Flea iso and I don't understand their approach to the game.

VOTE: Toogeloo

Whya re we voting toogs?

this is also a scum claim btw

I can see why but also, I got death tunneled like ten pages in for one post and I'm not doing that to anyone else.

Also Hopkirk is kinda scummy. I really dislike the flip flopping. Like I understand being indecisive and changing around but I feel like his changes are more forced and very consensusy. Like the moment it loses heat, he's ran far away to the next hot wagon:/

Are you sure you mean 'Hopkirk'. You're literally the only wagon I've been on except the one I just started so 'running to the next hot wagon' doesn't make any sense.

Care to point out which reads I've flip flopped on? Except you obvs.

[Hopkirk]

My current POE pool of non deepwolves that probably has 3 scum:
Bell
Unowen
Flea
Lapsa
Toogeloo
Fidget

[Hopkirk]

Nora was a bad vote. Pooky is still a good option. Who is panda?

why do you find the need to say this just like ... in general?

Are you sure you mean 'Hopkirk'. You're literally the only wagon I've been on except the one I just started so 'running to the next hot wagon' doesn't make any sense.

Care to point out which reads I've flip flopped on? Except you obvs.

I could've sworn there were two people that kept jumping around and if I recall correctly it was Lapsa and you

Nah, I'm the one who's been naked voting my scumpool and seeing if anyone else felt like joining me. You might have a different definition of wagon to me here, I was reading it in my definition which would be like 3-4+ votes here.

[Hopkirk]

MURDERCAT you can't have solved the game yet because then we don't hit even three hundred pages, lot alone 500.

[Hopkirk]

My current POE pool of non deepwolves that probably has 3 scum:
Bell
Unowen
Flea
Lapsa
Toogeloo
Fidget

Why are we letting this reads list live

You're just jealous.

Also I get sick for one weekend and this game becomes a hellhole of bad plays.

Good lord.

I salvaged your mess, no need to thank me.

[Hopkirk]

That's her ego and lack of reading comprehension not letting her see it's actually me or MURDERCAT that scum auto shoots lol.
Lady is obvtown but scum must love having her around crapping on the game.

[Hopkirk]

Thoughts on Flea? Nothing pinged me as town and there's a few bits I didn't like. Not enough content for a strong read either way though.

I have, how would the consensus be established is what I meant.
It's all well and good having a handful of vocal players doing what vocal players do, the consensus could be easily lost under a vocal minorities persistent screeching.
Given the 2 day window to allow pass alongs that's a bit of time for reads to change based on bits of information, the scroll going to the first player shouldn't be a hard lock on the process at that point.

Entry to thread had a couple of other mech posts like this then nothing else really. Kind of eh, didn't add anything useful here then left until post Noraa wagon then stuck with that trajectory without moving to date.

Jeeze you folk get busy.
UNVOTE:

The Lady needs to detangle her drawers methinks, that was some serious momentum buildup.

So, keeping it brief, it's past midnight and the discord conversations posts don't sit well with me, and neither does the list of reads this early into D1. Giving someone townpoints for meta'ing seems funky to me, like "oh! we played before! you know when I'm town!", followed by the emotional null read [how dare you use the discord against me! I will not read you now! - is how that looks to me] combined with "Oh woe is me, I'm always the wagon of choice!"...

More I read, more I dislike. Acting defensively to EVERYTHING including things which aren't aimed at her , then defending taylor from Lady's frankly freaking impressive presence at this point. I don't actually see Lady actively saying or even implying Taylor is a scumread. Maybe it's just my brain being out of whack. Noraa seems far too defensive of Taylor imo. Even defending against the jokepost.

VOTE: Noraa

the overjustification of the vote here feels kind of awkward and like an excuse to jump onto the wagon

Still here, migraine day, reading what I can ^_^;

Isis, Shelly and Bell aren't sitting right with me as I've been reading. More likely a dirty duo than a terrible trio in there though.

Important for later.

UNVOTE:

I'm gunna say I'm with Taylor. D1 is one big personality who honestly looked me like shes more worried about how long she has, and is actively drilling people into dirt. The moment it seemed control was shifting from her I got a slightly panicked vibe.

Honestly feels like Lady is shutting down any discussion that isn't what she wants and I kinda feel Noraa has been shoved into a corner and locked there, kinda feel as well Noraa hasn't given us much choice beyond reading her as scum though with a lot of the reactions which could be what Lady was aiming for and

argh

- basically.

This ain't a scumread on Lady btw. This is a "what the actual fluff have I got myself into here?!". Who on earth drives into people that hard and then says "Controlling your emotions isn't my problem" when you're clearly trying to get on every last nerve?

I literally don't have the requisite attention span to read in depth the 10 pages that appear every 2 hours, especially after a pain day.

Specifically defending against 'this isn't a scumread on lady btw' reads as scum that's scared of upsetting lady.

Spoiler: Adorable ISO - Null -.-;

This ISO reads as fairly opportunistic early on, at least to me. The vote on Nora was placed based on "Nora getting defensive is sus" #277 ISO#1. She calls Nora out on an OMGUS vote.

Aw great, now I gotta add UNOwen to this...

Ok so the interactions with Noraa on the Adorable end are some seriously weak sauce. Like Bell Pepper on the scoville scale weak.

Spoiler: UNOwen ISO (read in part with Adorable) - Scum Leaning

So UNOwen claims their RVS vote to have provoked good things, and seems rather keen on Noraa scum as a result, that's fine and fair. Seems a little to proud to me but that's just me reading it.

Claims in #708 to have "juicy and fulfilling Noraa scum read" - with a total of 3 game related posts. An RVS, an Adorbs accusation, and questioning someones read. Doesn't want to vote elsewhere until Noraa be cursed. Ok then.

At some point I will have opinions that are more substantial and worth offering without request. But the game has just started, and it is going at a good pace, so I see no reason to rush.

But the juicy noraa scumread?

blah blah blah discord/meta.... my brain hurts.

Ooo Adorable is scum apparently. #1201. Adorables made like 3 posts at this point. That's a pretty heavy read for a slot with nothing happening. That I can work out it's currently based on slightly whiffy vote nobody else was really bothered about at the time...

I gotta agree with Adorable in #1301. There's a definite sense of pride and knowing in UNOwens posts about Noraa.

Adorable and Noraa scumbuddies? That's a corker of a bus if that's the case. Shelly is implicated in this quite heavily and is someone I need to read over anyway.

More meta -.-;

This slot isn't sitting well with me.

Need to check Shelly and pooky at some point, this has used my attention span for the day.

So I really don't get Flea's approach to the game. They call out three people as sus then iso two random people they haven't talked about instead. The comments on those isos are only surface level and pretty meh. There's no real follow up, and the choice of them to look at doesn't come through as making sense to me. Flea's play feels inconsistent tonally around Noraa like they're just waiting until day end, not trying to rock the boat, and doing busywork that doesn't have an obviously consistent flow or mindset.

[Hopkirk]

Get on the Panda wagon Taylor. Don't make MURDERCAT or Hopkirk ask again.

[Hopkirk]

Can we kill hopkirk please

Lol.

[Hopkirk]

Hop"I drop my gimmick posting when I get a slight amount of pressure, proving it was for a purpose and not just a for fun gimmick"Kirk

Hey lady, how about you try taking the same post restriction and try making a reasonable number of posts. How long do you think I was planning to keep that up exactly?

Give it a go for your forty page catch-up m8

[Hopkirk]

Hey lady, how about you try taking the same post restriction and try making a reasonable number of posts. How long do you think I was planning to keep that up exactly?

Give it a go for your forty page catch-up m8

why did you even do it in the first place

Fun.
Then there were forty pages overnight and I didn't have close to the amount of time to make my thoughts readable.in that style

Also obviously two replacements meant I wouldn't get modkillwd for it.

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk, why Toog's in particular?

I voted several people. I'd have been wagon with a wagon on any of them. Toog I've gone over why I didn't like the slot, I liked the wagon comp, and I didn't like their reaction so I'm happy on it.

I can see flea being vague scum hiding as vague own.

Pls rephrase, don't know what you mean.

VOTE: TaylorSwift

Why? Also, what did you mean in the possible perspective slip post?

Can I get a quick read on Flea from anyone?

whats your read on flea?

Scumpool, so like 45-50% scum vs 26% baseline

[Hopkirk]

Is there even a 5 player set of people in the game who wouldn't realize that in the several weeks it takes to get to lylo?

[Hopkirk]

what is town about panda

[Hopkirk]

To rephrase on Flea.

I think they're just in the sweet spot that scum like to occupy.
Vaguely town read for saying townie things^Tm

+1

The reaction is bad because it's clearly manufactured to look like "I don't care about doing" town

I agree, and would like to add that saying townie things isn't even town indicative.

[Hopkirk]

Taylor and Pooky.

[Hopkirk]

I reisoed Zdenek and don't see how anyone can't townread the slot.
@Hectic - It's even immune to prods.

[Hopkirk]

Can anyone who's got a townread on Fidget or Bell sell me there? I remember some people had them.

[Hopkirk]

So for UNOwen I could go through their iso quoting half their posts, but it's easier to get a sense of this if you read the whole thing. They have no meaningful presence in this game. I can't find one meaningful thing in the second half of their iso. It's all just hollow, shallow, 'I'm here and speaking' but it doesn't actually say anything. Nothing Unowen says advances the gamestate. It's commentary and random comments but it's not actually doing anything. I can't even tell what their reads are beyond the vaguest sense. Can't even see who they want to lethal and it doesn't feel like they care. General vibe is just a 'keeping the presence and flying under the radar while people get into conflicts and dodge the lethal.'

Some specific pings, although the biggest ping is the null enthusiasm tone that permeates the iso. I don't get any pings of authenticity or caring.

Ah yes, I knew that my vote against Noraa would lead to good things.
The wagon looks promising, Noraa's reaction to the pressure has indeed been flaily.
Adorable's vote was not great.

UNOwen is here! Quick, get 'em!

UNOwen, I would like your opinions. All of them (that are relevant to the game). I would like them soon, because right now your slot is /content free/. Zero calories. No fat, sugar, artificial flavors, natural flavors. 100% empty.

I disagree my slot is content free. It has a juicy and filling Noraa scum read, I do not expect to vote elsewhere until she is cursed.
If there is something specific you'd like me to opine about, ask and I will provide.

So in these two posts Unowen is basically locked into the Noraa vote after making it in RVS. Tries to act both times as though their vote had any meaningful impact on the wagon and glosses over the actual cases on Noraa at this stage. Coasting nil effort and trying to let it build.

Yeah I got so fucking pissed that she used an outside influence against me. I literally just said I was excited to play a game that Hectic modded and she twisted that to somehow prove that there's no possible way I didn't read the OPs. Uno you have played with me before and you really think I'm scum here?

I'm afraid I do.

owen what are your reads atm?

Noraa scum.
Adorable scum.
Zdenek scum?

As earlier, if you want me to look at a specific player then I will.

These people, please read Hopkirk and give me a read. "Null" is not a read unless you can justify it real well, please. I want you to lean TOWN or SCUM essentially "would you kill Hopkirk?"

Yes I would kill Hopkirk, I can see him as scum. That is a low confidence suspicion though and would prefer cursing elsewhere for now.

In the above two posts, the below ones, and above ones you can see Unowen only does stuff when promopted. There's so many cases of 'if you want me to do x then ask' which doesn't give me any sense of proactivity/enthusiasm.

The reads also suck. Noraa read doesn't seem justified beyond consensus despite not engaging with the case in a way that they'd take flak for on a townflip. The other 3 reads (me at the time, Zor, Ador) are all just low activity players, unsubstantiated, and look like fishing for LHF.

Noraa's read list was interesting enough, but she is very capable of high effort as scum in this situation. It's a bit mean if she is town but we are in a game state where there appears to actually be an overwhelming majority that thinks she is scum so I believe the best way forward is to clarify that at the first opportunity. Going through the process of cursing two players while this is hanging over the game does not seem a very smart idea.

Adorable's spiderweb accusation against me which connected together posts from three different players was pretty earnest, which could suggest newbtown. I think it will be possible to get a more solid read there as they post more.

Fence sitty as hell. From this point on it's unclear how UNOwen reads Noraa outside of their vote staying on. Seems like trying to distance from the wagon while still wanting it to go through by doing nothing to get any other wagons gaining momentum and sitting on it until deadline forces it then tries to avoid any blame for it. Feeds into my overall read of scum lightposting and trying not to rock the gamestate.

[Hopkirk]

What's your hardlocktownblock look like Adorable?

[Hopkirk]

Good news is, I got the apartment.

Bad news... it's unfurnished.

So less anxiety but less time.

Congrats.

[Hopkirk]

I feel like there was a reason I townread Titus but I don't remember. Can you obvtown Titus or remind my Pooky?

[Hopkirk]

I think it was something like two of my townreads said it and I thought 'ok sure, I'm not great at sorting her so sure'

[Hopkirk]

I still want Panda.

God, I really am glad we got Toog to head this. Basically best case scenario it's looking like.

Hopkirk
Pooky
Shellyc
Zdenek
Lapsa

This is in order of what I think is valuable to town, not order of scumminess. I scumread (at least a bit) every slot listed, regardless.
My Hopkirk case has been gone into. A bit gut, dislike of the reads, disliking the combination of early gimmick posting and early joke/sarcasm posting, recognition of Hopkirk as probably a player who is very dangerous as scum. Number 2 scumread, but the danger and the lack of useful content to play off of bumps this slot up.
Pooky is hyper-active and has a lot more town sway than I'd like for my number 3 scumread. Pooky red clears Noraa. Pooky's postcount in thread may be a major contributor to the thread bloat (uncertain).
Shellyc is largely sheeping Hopkirk's garbo reads and propping up Hopkirk as a town contributor in an adverse environment. Some weak out of date meta brought up about Shelly hard-tunnelling as scum and being more uncertain as town. I don't trust myself to read this slot well, but I think this is one of the only cases where a red Shelly indicates a red Hopkirk, so that's valuable.
Zdenek: number one scumread. I think if this slot isn't scum I'll need to buy a hat to cut up, deep fry and eat. I see absolutely not one single solitary hint of town play in it. That said, the slot is weak and they give us little to no information.
Lapsa is blatantly obvious. Shitposting, self-voting, lurking. If they aren't scum they're gamethrowing town and we should eliminate there sooner than later no matter what... but they're such a universal scumread and their play is so unspeakably bad that I think their alignment is the hardest one to determine in this game. Essentially a policy elimination, I think we get no guarantees of hitting scum here.

Gimmick/Joke posting - @Taylor @Pooky @Bell @Anyone I've played with: do I joke post quite a lot? I've written more than one 2k word joke post in the middle of other posting.
Danger as scum - why? You haven't played with me before and I literally haven't played scum in 2.5 years and over 20 games (counting hydras) and I've completely changed my playstyle since then. Garbage reasoning.
Dislike of reads - If you don't say why you don't like them then you're not saying anything tbh.
Gut? Doesn't mean anything when everything else you've said is meaningless.

[Hopkirk]

The reads Hopkirk's giving are trash though. Zdenek a townread? Ever? Also, like, on the face of it half of the nulls and half of the scumreads in Hopkirk's readslist make no sense.

Which strikes me as someone who is angling for miselimination bait more than actually paying attention to what looks town. Which would be way too much work for scum normally, but strikes me as a Hopkirk thing to do.

There's also the fact that most of Hopkirk's interactions where their reads are being questioned are obfuscated by jokes, sarcasm and generally ambiguous meaning. That seems not very much like town to me. Like ... jokes and sarcasm sure, but you'd generally separate those out or use them to punctuate points, rather than covering the surface of your post in an even coat.

So I mean, I don't think I need to do a metadive here. I'm not a fan of meta to begin with, and this is one of those things where these sort of elements come from a certain kind of personality. That sort of personality being faked when you normally play differently is scummy enough on its own, I think.


PEDIT: Noraa... god. Just as I start to townread you again you wreck it /why do you want to derail this wagon so badly just stop/ Toogaloo wants the scroll give 'em the scroll why is this up for debate with the deadline looming THIS CLOSE.

Ok, you're going to have to have some hard backup for 'normally play differently' if you're saying joke posting isn't my town meta. This is an outright lie

[Hopkirk]

If you want to address my townread on Z then how about you either comment on the reasons I've given for it, or do literally anything except sitting around being a waste of a townslot. Same thing goes for Lady.

[Hopkirk]

Not going to comment on MUSH's read of me then Bell?

[Hopkirk]

What's your confidence on Taylor and why do you want it?

I finally play in a game with a UK mod and we have a 7.20am deadline. Hectic, did you start this game right before going to sleep?

[Hopkirk]

I'm also so confused about Nero being comod now that I think about it. I thought he was head of the anti-Hectic society.

[Hopkirk]

You townread Pooky right?

[Hopkirk]

I still like that for a TvT especially in a setup where conflicts like that are horrendous for scum to get into and perpetuate.

[Hopkirk]

You're in my dodgy section but I can see you flipping town since I misread you until the middle of last game and you're tonally similar.
Shelly's in my good section but I can see her flipping scum that's been pocketing me.
Neither of you are preferences.

[Hopkirk]

These posts all read as genuine. I liked her when she got pissed off at Lady for being useless.

hey does anyone know if theres scum in this game? im not in the scum PT so im not sure.

Taylor is probably town

yeah but im sensitive about it, please dont rub it in

so. the current gamestate is a disaster. LLD, you need to shut up and take a step back. your town leadership is frankly awful and we are about to wind up with three dead townies and nothing to show for it.

there was a huge noraa wagon that appeared out of nowhere and became very large. no counterwagons developed. no one defended noraa, except a couple people who know noraa well on weak meta grounds. but like, no one really stood up for noraa. where were scum trying to sow division and chaos? where were they trying to start counterwagons? scum LOVED the game the way it was, because it was a huge 1v1. and VCA and wagonomics are impossible because lld is bullying everyone and being town leader. all other voices are drowned out, and so the scum can just float on by without doing anything.

so why are you upset about the Hopkirk wagon again?

purely because youre leading it and you need to sit down and shut up and let the game develop organically. 9 times out of 10 when a big ego comes in and takes over the town it ends badly for town, regardless of whether they are town or scum, because scum can nudge the plan away from themselves and skirt by without having to expose themselves at all. what we need is a bloc of townies working together. what we have is a dictator deciding everything.

fucking just give me the scroll then.

wait is the scum team conceding taylor? cuz right now i just see scum lining up to eat the scroll so they can stop the bleeding

this is low-grade trolling. a) you can do better. b) im really not in the mood.

you posted 1468 and i posted 1472 3 minutes later your next 6 posts avoid 1472 and you basically veer off me completely because you realize I am ready to trade my life for yours and that's not something you want despite scumreading me at 95%

stop fucking misreading me. take a second. read what i wrote. did any of my posts refer to posts that came after your post? because i probably hadnt read your post

[Hopkirk]

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Everything okay Nero?

Weren’t you the one saying what matters is what town do and not what they say?

Not that I remember. Most of my townreads come from genuine/sincere looking approaches.

[Hopkirk]

@hoppy if you think getting pissed off is a town trait why arent you TRing Bell for being pissed off at me.

Getting pissed off isn't a towntell inherently. Taylor's annoyance flows naturally.
Bell's I didn't get any vibes on and is about interactions between players including themselves which is much more eh.

[Hopkirk]

ours

oof

Hum,

Well,

We could go for zedenek but we’re lowish on time.

I still think that 'dumb strategies in response to a setup that aren't actually a good idea' are a towntell. This is based on my experience of it and is most of my read there.
I'm assuming the lack of people townreading the slot disagree, but I've gone over this at least three times now and nobody's bothered to address it when naked saying they dislike Zedenek. What am I meant to do here.

[Hopkirk]

talk to me

[Hopkirk]

I don't want Taylor>Pooky>X.

[Hopkirk]

Isn't that by a couple of % points? If there's newer stuff let me know or link it.

I've seen so much garbage 'should we lethal d1', 'shall we all post our reads lists from best to worst every day' and so on (offsite) and it comes from town so much more than scum. The scum were usually the ones who chime in when a couple of people are wasting time on bad setup optimisation/spec imo.

[Hopkirk]

I've got reads over a couple of % points.

I'm working from a baseline of 0 and people going up from stuff I like as town mindset rather than a 75% then adj based on a Bayesian calc. From the second method if you plug it in I wouldn't say I've got enough of a sample size that I can say it's above 76% adj for margin of error.

[Hopkirk]

79%*

[Hopkirk]

Still makes a +ve adj though doesn't it. Observing thing that's more likely to come from town swings it a couple of %points back towards town

[Hopkirk]

You aren't wanting Toogeloo anymore?

[Hopkirk]

I have no issues with the wagon buildup.

[8] Toogeloo:

Hopkirk

,

MURDERCAT

,

Titus,

Toogeloo,

Theta Alpine

,

MUSHSHAGANA

,

Lady Lambdadelta

,

Noraa

It's a selfvote and seven people that I like at least somewhat. Who's on the wagon that you don't like? I think all the people you've wagoned recently are off it?

If I remember you like
-Me
-Lady
-Noraa
-Mush
-MURDERCAT
On the wagon, so excluding the selfvote that's Titus/Theta who you might have an issue with.
It feels towndriven. If you don't think it is then why not look at (Titus/Theta) on it?

[Hopkirk]

Like I have no outright scumreads on the wagon except themselves and a lot of the slots going through my mind as 'hm am I reading this right' aren't there.

[Hopkirk]

Wow, that's a pretty scummy write up.

[Hopkirk]

I don't plan on moving wagons.

[Hopkirk]

You forgot 'on herself'.

[Hopkirk]

I started the wagon not murder noraa, and I think it's got about 45-60% odds of hitting scum (good odds)

[Hopkirk]

That's exactly what I was assuming pooky. I skipped over the meta whenever I catch up because it's long and probably not worthwhile without a solid read on it myself.

She seemed to be playing within her interests in matrix.
What's your read on the ex Isis slot now?

[Hopkirk]

That's exactly what I was assuming pooky. I skipped over the meta whenever I catch up because it's long and probably not worthwhile without a solid read on it myself.

She seemed to be playing within her interests in matrix.
What's your read on the ex Isis slot now?

We have slightly more experience with Taylor and have met the more creative, less safe and sound taylor.

as scum only or as scum more?

[Hopkirk]

You refused that trade too Pooky...

Vax I'll look at again sometime then. I had them as town due to the Isis replace out.

[Hopkirk]

If you give someone you think is scum a vengeful shot then it's a 2:1 not a 1:1. That's consistent with Taylor or you or anyone as town or scum. We've been over this so many times now

[Hopkirk]

a townie with first scroll would want scum as last scroll

You should also give it to the most obviously town player in the game. Otherwise you might accidently give the second shot to scum and then they'll just use it to kill obvious town players.

[Hopkirk]

Shooting vax doesn't seem terrible

[Hopkirk]

Sadly Hectic and Nero missed the very sensible 'you need to post game advancing content rather than prod dodge' rule.

[Hopkirk]

As long as we find out before I have to set my alarm for tomorrow morning.

[Hopkirk]

I think they're just upset we're shooting them third

[Hopkirk]

It is, but if we lethaled scum with the first shot then we hit two.

[Hopkirk]

Unown
Fidget
Vax
Flea
Bell

[Hopkirk]

There's a whole lot of people who're saying they'd have been happy voting Unowen who didn't take me up on the whole 'shall we wagon Unowen' offer.

[Hopkirk]

(phoneposting so only posting adjustments to the nominal thread, not workings)

Yeah, I don't want to lethal noraa at this point.
Pooky/Taylor I read as TvT.

(Unowen/Fidget/Toogeloo/Bell) - anyone want to make a wagon while we have time?

No plans this evening so will be posting after work.

My vote is wrong on the VC, should be for Fidget but VOTE: Unowen

I switched to Panda a few pages after the vote.
People who posted and didn't join: Shelly/Bell/Vax/Flea/Lapsa. Also MURDERCAT and Titus.
Which is a pretty large amount of my POE not being interested in the wagon at that point.

Unowen/Vax is a decent call at two scum slots.

[Hopkirk]

I'm also happy to policy lethal Lapsa at essentially any point tbh.

[Hopkirk]

20 pages a day is a lot to read. Comparing current pages to other larges and considering we've kind of still got 3 days left in d1 we could easily hit 600 pages this game. Especially if Pooky's alive until then.

[Hopkirk]

Hey Unowen, you asked me several times to go through your stuff and you haven't commented on the place where I did that yet.

[Hopkirk]

What motive does Adorable scum have to switch things up with a Vax scumread when she could just stick to her guns and go reasonably unchallenged?

I suppose I don't see what's so special about Adorable's Vaxkiller read. It reads the same as all of her other scumreads to me.

Her earlier posts did not mention Vax/Isis suspicion at all, in fact the opposite. She could have just ignored that slot and replaced them with Flea or someone. Placing Vax as top scum read does not fit with the narrative of her posts, so it feels like a natural development.

Town indicative from Adorable imo.

[Hopkirk]

Fidget prob flips scum here too

[Hopkirk]

Uncontroversial townreads

Hopkirk
MUSH
Lady
Murdercat
Gloria
Taylor
Adorable
Theta

More controversial townreads

Pooky
Shelly
Noraa
Zdenek

3 scum in (Fidget,Flea,Titus,Unowen,Bell,Vaxkiller,Lapsa)

Vax-Fidget preference I think?
Titus needs more looking at.

[Hopkirk]

3-4 would make def make any analysis more meaningful.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk, how easily would you say you find it to try hard or have high WIM as scum?

I haven't rolled scum in 2.5 years (twenty something game streak whoo) in a forum game, and my entire approach to mafia changed in the last year or so (much more jokey being notable, but also a lot of other things). I could say how scum-Hop used to play, but can't give a meaningful answer to this because I don't know myself.

Currently whenever I get a role pm think 'I hope it's town', whereas I used to like playing as scum a little more than town.

[Hopkirk]

What's WIM?

[Hopkirk]

Probably only about 18-20 town in a row on site then ~3 offsite in the same timeframe.
I feel like motivating myself to keep playing as scum would drop off as the game went on, but you saw the same thing happen in the game we just finished with town Hop so idk. Relatively heavy posting that gradually dropped off as I became happy with my POE.

[Hopkirk]

Or Panda could just shoot Vax.

[Hopkirk]

Same tbh.

[Hopkirk]

Same tbh.

Was at MURDERCAT

Vax has gone up in my list since yesterday/day before.

[Hopkirk]

Vax & Fidget have the greatest disparity in 'how people I like read them' vs 'how people I don't like read them'. The only person I don't like who put Vax on their list was Bell with a 5. I'm assuming town-Panda would be removing his scumreads from the weighting or giving them a greater weighting.

[Hopkirk]

If we are not doing Noraa first then I would lean more on Unowen is scum which was mentioned earlier. And also I wanted to add on #101 what Theta said are my thoughts exactly. On #680 it looked like Isis also had the same thoughts as me and Theta which makes me think Isis is also probably town with Theta. On #708 Unowen said Isis is suspicious and I would have assumed town Unowen would have picked up on what Theta was saying on #101 and would have also assumed Isis also picked up on this too and would have leaned town on Isis. This makes me think scum did not know town were asked to confirm that scum had daytalk.

I also saw somewhere that doing this t>s>t is bad and I'm assuming town would have to pass the scroll to a town read if the first scroll is handed to a town player.

I saw on Noraa's recent reads list she put me as newbtown and I find this strange she still leaves her vote on me.

@Theta You never responded to #1658 and your theory looks really weird. shelly said on #347 Noraa hates bussing.

I was going to ask why this is town but the genuine optimism is heartwarming.

Because these are genuine. She's also either got good reads or is sheeping me to pocket me.

[Hopkirk]

Lot of your list doesn’t make sense to me actually. I don’t wanna give you too much work but a concise summary for each read would be nice.

I can go into it a little more after work.
Either say which reads don't make sense or which ones do. No point going over stuff like Cat/Mush

My reads are largely a POE, accepting I'm townread at least one scum.

[Hopkirk]

Given scum’s one job is to get you to town read them I’d expect more in’ that. Or maybe not.

I guess everyone that isn’t obvious town.

Obvtown is what, Lady/MURDERCAT/Mush/Shelly/Taylor/Me?

[Hopkirk]

So what you're asking is for me to explain my read on these 6?

Pooky
Shelly
Noraa
Zdenek
Adorable
Theta

[Hopkirk]

So

Pooky
Taylor
Noraa

Adorable

Theta

[Hopkirk]

What kind of weighting is that. Shelly being that high with a 2/3/5th pick doesn't make sense. Some of your totals are off as well.

[Hopkirk]

oh, you've used Shellyc and shelly, that's throwing the countifs off

[Hopkirk]

I should probably have checked totals.

[Hopkirk]

Ok mine is fixed. I'd assume you made the lists/used the same names throughout.

[Hopkirk]

Panda def town then.

[Hopkirk]

my list is fixed on my end now

I very much approve of the pick. MURDERCAT may want to give any last words around now though

[Hopkirk]

Ok now my variance stats point a lot more towards Vax/Fidget and away from Shelly/Lapsa and slightly away from Zdenek/Taylor/Adorable

[Hopkirk]

Very strongly to town Shelly and scum Vaxkiller.

Vax/Fidget are two. We go with Fidget lethal 1 tomorrow. Easy.

[Hopkirk]

No? Vax kills a town here so we do stuff before Vax and Hectic get here.

[Hopkirk]

Discussing now.
If they troll it then it's irrelevant.
If they insta shoot then it's bad for us.
I see no issues.

[Hopkirk]

explain your problems Noraa

[Hopkirk]

'Scum just comes in the thread, says fuck you all, and goes to their pt to discuss.'

They objectively don't.

[Hopkirk]

bell and pooky, what are your reads on fidget?

I thought she was scum but then she said she was disappointed in me and I never, ever want to disappoint someone.

@Noraa, LLD's pretty good. I figure if she still holds that read she has good reason for it. Hopkirk got two of his eliminations and struck out both times. Time to actually give someone with a reputation for being good a try rather than just the loudest voice in the room.

So you're saying Vax is town before the flip?

[Hopkirk]

Working with him in case town, sure.
Advising him as though he's town sure.
Changing your personal reads pre flip based on an assumption he's town in an inorganic way, nah.

My posting style is how I post. I don't really care that mush and lady are bad at interpretating tone.

[Hopkirk]

I think you're still misremembering.
I said you were scum, that's the extent of my reaction.

[Hopkirk]

How do you feel about shelly's progression?

Haven't reread anything around end of days wagons/reads on you and Panda. That's something I'm going to look at post flip.
I could see Shelly flipping scum but I still townread them.

and how do you feel now?

I can still see you flipping scum, but that's getting lower the longer the phase lasts. Realistically I'm not going to do any in depth posting until after you've taken a shot anyway though since I'm busy tue/thu evenings. A little bit of snark (like saying Mush the slot reminds me of a mushroom because of how in the dark they are) is about all I can do atm.

My biggest wish is that hopkirk noraa and shelly would be quieter allowing me to read other people.

I like how I'm in this list and not two of the people with three times my post count.

[Hopkirk]

I can still see you flipping scum, but that's getting lower the longer the phase lasts.

When did you start town reading toog?

40% town pre flip. About 75% after 24h, now 98% based on pass.

[Hopkirk]

This post is highly meaningful.

[Hopkirk]

I guess Hopkirk and some regrets about not engaging other players more.

Pros:
A robot
Came in with a gimmick, abandoned that gimmick because it was hard.
Most of us have experience with gimmick accounts or entrances.
Instantly dropped the gimmick, did not slide back into it even accidentally like most town inevitably end up doing.

Cons: active
The post at the spectators was very ???? For scum.

Weirdness: playing a little below his capacity. Making assumptions about what scum would do in this scenario, instead of thinking about what scum are actually doing. Could be positioning. Could just be...his capacity. Perhaps better put pretty sure that thinking up what strategies scum might try to enact is very backwards from just reading unnatural interactions.

Sometimes makes these posts that seem totally pointless. Usually delineates between joke time and serious time.
But all serious all the time here after that be at the start and that other bit.

Led two wagons on town (probably). This is in weirdness because town lead wagons on town all the time. I’m a little iffy that he hasn’t directly communicated with most of his scum reads, while maybe (pretending) to have trouble reading me. It’s hard cause it’s not an uncommon thing for my initial posting to seem pretty vapid(because it is!). And there’s a lack of adaptation involved.

Don't expect much since most of your case is personality/playstyle (same as Mush/Lady who haven't played with me - which makes yours worse than theirs since you have).

Pros
-Robot?
-You try the gimmick.
-How exactly does someone 'slip back into' 8 syllable rhyming couplets? I have to count the beats with my fingers. I for one notice when my fingers are doing weird stuff.

Cons
-Activity isn't AI
-How the hell does that post only come from town-Hop. It's objectively NAI. I like making long joke posts because it's fun. I absolutely wouldn't force myself not to have fun if I rolled scum because having fun is why I play mafia.

Weirdness
-I don't like larges. Not sure what your specific issue is here.

Pointless posts - like the game we just played.

Final point - They weren't responding to me, and long 1v1s help you tunnel and lose objectivity more than develop a read so are meh in general. I was happy to vote any of my POE. Panda was the only wagon that got traction.

My playstyle in general - find townreads. Deepen townreads. Create POE. Vote off people in the POE. You saw this in the game we just played where I hard locktowned Pooky/Isis d1 and kept those locktownreads until we won. I think my approach to this game has been basically the same as this game, Pooky/Taylor seem to see that, so I'm not sure why you're reading me as really different.

[Hopkirk]

Don't expect any serious work before flips for fairly obvious reasons.

[Hopkirk]

If your strongest play is from town hunting why did you lead two wagons on town.

I don't see how you can interpret 'trying to find a group of locktowns, other townreads, then voting in the remaining players POE' in this manner (never lethaling town).
I'll be happy to engage with you again when you admit this post was intentionally misrepresenting what I said. Until then you're lock scrolled for me.

[Hopkirk]

I'll be very generous this time and say you can just admit it was misrepresentative rather than intentionally misrepresentative this time, but this is a limited time offer.

[Hopkirk]

Having two scumreads (one unflipped that I can still see flipping scum) be 'wrong' has gone from NAI to 100% scum very fast for you there.

[Hopkirk]

Having two scumreads (one unflipped that I can still see flipping scum) be 'wrong' has gone from NAI to 100% scum very fast for you there.

I don't really understand what you mean.
I mean, sure they could flip scum. But I already explained my reasoning for why it's probably better to interact with them as if they were town given it harms nothing to do so.
I suppose later it might make me untouchable because I probably wouldn't want to make myself look like a clown as scum, but that's a problem for scum later down the line.

You're claiming to have developed a strong scumread on me based on a flip (vax) that hasn't happened.
If he flips scum it doesn't sound like you're planning to retract your read on me.

[Hopkirk]

Ok, I can see your perspective of Vax-townflip assumptions if you're looking from town-Vax'-with scroll's perspective

[Hopkirk]

Fortunately most of the thread is reading me right. Sadly, two of my top townreads aren't.

[Hopkirk]

Bell, do you feel comfortable being able to sort out hopkirk eventually?

Haven't we played together more than once? I've only played with Bell once.

[Hopkirk]

Because it's ages ago and I don't remember anything meaningful.

Turns out it was two games. One we didn't really interact, the other I developed a breaking strategy that won it and we didn't need to.
Not especially useful as meta goes tbh

[Hopkirk]

Hm, I thought it was like 6 months - 1 year ago. Turns out it was before I had the jokey style.

Taylor or Pooky should probably be best placed for any meta reading on me.

[Hopkirk]

I was playing some games with Hectic last night and I almost got him to tell me the entire scumteam. He skilfully managed to haggle it down to two (Karna and Nero), but I'll keep working at it. I think he'll give it up soon enough, after all he doesn't want anyone to know about that thing that happened in July/Augustish.

[Hopkirk]

I don't think Shelly flips scum here.

[Hopkirk]

Fortunately Hectic won't be up for a few hours yet (I've talked to him about his sleeping times, don't blame me here), so you've got time for any thoughts before the flips.

[Hopkirk]

You were town I'm assuming?

[Hopkirk]

Unowen/Lapsa have oddly similar top 5 lists. Shelly 1/each other 2/me 3.