A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[The Pied Piper]

Piper crumbed Matilda which is current.

Spoiler: confirming this is correct

The less you have to sell, the harder you sell it!
The less you have to say, the louder you yell it!
The dumber the act, the bigger the confession!
The less you have to show, the larger you dress it!

[The Pied Piper]

To be honest, my flavor actually would imply that I'm a cop. But sadly I am not.

It seems pretty strange to me that scum!Mirhawk would be setting up the whole "my flavor doesn't align with my role" thing early and by that he meant "not a cop".

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

The reason why we didn't want to disclose why we were crumbing an innocent on tictac to Cakez is because explaining it outed both of them. The reason why people are complaining about us lying in the first place is because we said a "bunch of" PRs instead of "a couple PRs"; the motivation for doing so as scum is non-existent; the idea that people came up with is that we were crumbing to out PRs to make it less likely that people would want to lynch us or some dumb crap like that even though the difference in gain between saying a bunch of and a couple for scum is pretty much zero, which means either A) we're liars, B) our perception of "a bunch of" is different than yours, or C) we have another PR we are trying to avoid to out. The only thing that this magical exchange has proven to me is that certain people in the town either want everything or nothing; there's no use trying to explain this situation to everyone's satisfaction because no one actually gives a shit what I'm typing, and the only small benefit that could come out of our slot explaining further is being driven a little less crazy but that obviously isn't happening so there's no use in trying.

You say that our play is pretty "cut in dry" scum, and yet you've gone through no effort in explaining it. Can you explain why scum in our position would crumb the innocent on tictac Day 2 and then refuse to explain it? Can you explain why the motivation we would give for explaining it as scum was "out a bunch of PRs" when we could have pretty reasonably said that it would out two PRs as opposed to a bunch? You were pretending like we were a universal scumread with our backs against the wall throwing everything and the kitchen sink at everyone to avoid a lynch but WE WERE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY SCUMREAD. WE WERE NOT GETTING LYNCHED TODAY. The only reason there is even lynch pressure on us period is because of the claim situation that we got ourselves into if scum and had no motivation to get ourselves into if scum. People are lashing out and calling us "obvious scum" because of a situation that they don't understand and won't understand until everything's on the table, which isn't happening period.

[The Pied Piper]

Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

We must be remembering a pretty different Day 1 then because last time I checked, it was pretty difficult to classify Friendless Seniors as the "I don't give a shit" type from Day 1. What I do remember is hiplop refusing to do anything until beeboy left him alone, then I remember crappy attacks on Ranger, Amihan (for "faking too much" - remember when everyone thought Amihan's miller counterclaim looked pretty solidly town and hiplop went "nah guys she's faking too much"), shifting off Ranger to push an alternative tictac wagon even though they were very very confident on Ranger, and then nonsense nonsense nonsense. They are voting you because "they could be wrong" - this isn't why town people vote other people, this is how scum compromise on wagons they know will flip town so they can continue pretending that there's something behind the shit scumreads that they've been pushing and pushing and pushing - and for what reason? Why are Friendless Seniors pushing us again? Oh yeah, "pointless meta bullshit" - calls clumsy wagoning a scumtell from Plot based on Butterfly Mafia where Plot was uncharacteristically disengaged and frustrated and angry, calls us scum for SOFTING A GUILTY ON HIM TO GAIN SUPPORT which is a line of shit repulsive enough where even Dwlee, who has done nothing this game but single-mindedly push us, said "no, that doesn't make any sense", and has pushed us for the claim bullshit that everyone else has pushed.

[The Pied Piper]

The only reason there is even lynch pressure on us period is because of the claim situation that we got ourselves into if scum and had no motivation to get ourselves into if scum.

Well that's patently false.

Could you remind me why you're scumreading us, Dramonic?

[The Pied Piper]

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.

Your dislike of meta is your dislike of his playstyle; this has absolutely nothing to do with his alignment and is a dislike that is not game-related. He didn't spend "most of Day 1 with his thumb up his butt doing nothing"; at the time, I thought a lot of it didn't really make sense, but saying that he wasn't doing anything at all is pretty much completely wrong if you make the effort to read his posts. If you'd like to disagree with this, go right ahead and I'll start happily dumping quotes as long as you need me to. Today, he's been reiterating his townreads on us/FS and scumreads on you/Axel. This is not really different from what every single player this game day has been doing; it's been a lazy as fuck game day where the only thing that seems to happen is people keep reiterating shit they already said, so Cakez isn't exactly some shiny amazing scumread that everyone are idiots for missing for doing something that everyone else has been doing all day.

[The Pied Piper]

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Consistent, yes. Good? No. I'm also struggling to see where you're seeing substantial posts in his ISO; could you be hallucinating them? For fun, let's just take a glance at a substantial dramonic post:

*furious dryhumping*

In reference to Marquis voting a scumread. This is no different than what he's been doing every time someone votes one of dramonic's very consistent scumreads.

He's scum is what's up

"My scumread is scum". No different than anytime he mentions one of his scumreads, isn't that just remarkable???

I'm pretty sure I called out all three of your asses before you adressed me.

"My scumreads aren't OMGUS because I called you out first!" - Probably not false, definitely not substantial or "pretty good".

That is one shitty excuse to vote me mate. You're "not comfortable" voting someone else without review? That is such wishy-washy bull

"You're not comfortable voting anyone else but me? You must be scum!" - dramonic. Substantial? Good? No.

I'm not going to waver unless you provide a reason for me to, but every post you make just confirms my read further so...

"You are scum!"

Okay, I want everyone to take a moment to read that quote and tell me what sort of town tries to convince someone of a read by saying "But he attacked you, therefore he must be scum!"
So I guess the answer to the rest of that post would be that yeah, you're just a bad player

This is the best and most substantial thing dramonic has posted the entire game, but is unfortunately horrendously wrong and shows that he either doesn't know how newer players tend to approach the game or doesn't care.

TPP come on

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

And after I dryhumped you for a good fifteen minutes. SHAME man.

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not trying to convince

you

of your own alignment. My ISO is there if you need a refresher and it's not a long read.

EDIT: @Cerb: I'm not saying some people aren't purely focused on that, I'm saying "ITS ALL BECAUSE OF THE CLAIM!" is (yet again) bull from the tpp slot.

I wasn't asking you to try to get you to convince everyone of my alignment. I'm trying to get you to show the people how terrible your read is in your own words; all I can read from your ISO in thinking that we are scum is because we sound fake and some garbage logic that has to do with the claim stuff. Am I wrong or does that summarize your read on us pretty solidly?

All of the people who aren't purely focused on that (Dwlee, Friendless Seniors) have garbage reasons for scumreading us that don't have a chance in hell of gaining any sort of traction whatsoever. The reason there is lynch pressure (which you + Dwlee + Friendless couldn't create in just your little trio alone) is because of the crumbing situation. I suppose there's also a situation in which True Ogre could maybe create lynch pressure on us given sufficient time and paranoia but I also have no idea what his reasons for scumreading us are other than "I love Nacho's town play but I don't love Nacho here" and don't think that's a very rousing and inspiring case.

[The Pied Piper]

What are you trying to say about dramonic?

He's annoying as hell.

[The Pied Piper]

The whole colorcoded post from your hydra with the interpretation he has of everything was indeed pretty substantial.

I will enjoy this very much.

[The Pied Piper]

that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...

This is part of why you don't understand what we were doing.

This was in response to Mirhawk saying that he didn't understand what the wizard stuff was about. Plot said "yep, you don't understand what we're doing". Can you explain how this is suddenly "we're so good so don't question us" to me, Cerb?

[The Pied Piper]

that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...

It sounds like you think that we're town, and you know that we're not village idiots, and therefore it is not too much to ask for you to have extended some measure of trust towards us that even if you couldn't fully understand why we're doing something, we're doing it for good reason that will make sense in a day phase or two.

Mirhawk said that he believed us, and that we handled it awkwardly. He was asking what the town benefit in exaggerating the number of PRs was. The response was "give us a little trust, it will make more sense later". Does this sound nothing like "we're so good don't question us?" or is this just me?

[The Pied Piper]

that "we're good so don't question us" asbsurdity...

You don't understand how newbies think. The rest of us know that you only need five completed games to be an IC and we think "five games? that's not that many. i was practically a newbie myself when i only had five completed games! oh man I was so dumb back then."

Plot's argument was that newbies tend to have a skewed perception of what an IC is, and that they didn't think that tictac would go from newbie game as town immediately into neighborizing their IC. I understand where this argument is coming from although I do disagree with it. The problem with it is nowhere near "we're so good don't question us" unless you are a person who is completely incapable of reading which, although you couldn't tell from this game, dramonic isn't.

[The Pied Piper]

Eh, that's not really relevant to anything. He's the least intrusive type of annoying there is, and it says nothing about how you feel about his alignment. Why are you wasting time on it?

Why am I wasting time on it? Because people are going "wow, look at dramonic's posts, they make so much sense and they are great!" and I am annoyed at reading things like that. I'm tired of being railed on for shitty reasons and I'm annoyed as hell at this game so my alternatives are currently "rip the annoying people apart until they shut the hell up" or "go back to lurking because I hate how much this game pisses me off". Which would you rather me do?

[The Pied Piper]

Pedit: It sounds to me like he got the impression that that comment was ego fuelled, rather than an honest description of the situation . It could easily be taken to mean plot was implying that Mirhawk wasn't capable of understanding what they were attempting, rather than meaning (as is clear to me) that Mirhawk lacked the appropriate frame of reference to interpret what they were doing, because he had no experience with what they were referencing..

"It sounds like you think that we are town" - where is there ego in this comment?
"You know that we're not village idiots" - saying that we aren't idiots is a pretty far cry from "omg we're the greatest people alive you could never understand what we're doing because we're so advanced!", no?
"therefore it is not too much to ask for you to have extended some measure of trust towards us" - trust us. that's all this line is saying is to please trust us for once. is that ego driven? is that "you can't understand what we're doing because we're an idiot?"
"that even if you couldn't fully understand why we're doing something, we're doing it for good reason that will make sense in a day phase or two." - even if you don't know what we're doing right this second, you will understand it soon. that doesn't mean we're saying that mirhawk is dumb. that doesn't mean we're saying that we are smart. that means we are operating from a different frame of reference that will become clearer in a day or two. where does that say that we are ego-driven and fuck you because you don't understand what you're saying?

It's clear to you that the comment isn't ego fueled because you're reading and understanding what we are saying. Do you really think that anyone who reads that comment and actually thinks about it reaches the conclusion that it's ego driven? No, you don't, unless you think the player in question is an idiot, and dramonic isn't an idiot. He just isn't reading.

[The Pied Piper]

and looks like i was responding to the wrong comment which means that you actually agree with dramonic - do you mind explaining this to me a little bit? where in that second comment did plot sound like they were saying that they were smarter than Mirhawk and Mirhawk just couldn't understand where we were coming from with our awesome play and he shouldn't bother to question it because he didn't understand?

[The Pied Piper]

Pedit: It sounds to me like he got the impression that that comment was ego fuelled, rather than an honest description of the situation . It could easily be taken to mean plot was implying that Mirhawk wasn't capable of understanding what they were attempting, rather than meaning (as is clear to me) that Mirhawk lacked the appropriate frame of reference to interpret what they were doing, because he had no experience with what they were referencing..

Where did Plot imply that Mirhawk wasn't capable?

[The Pied Piper]

Obviously the first, or the unlisted third option of not wasting your time and instead outline your thoughts on people who aren't FS, because even if you're right about them, there are still two other scum out there!

I've explained why I'm doing what I'm doing. Me doing this doesn't mean that I'm not going to comment on anything else, but it does mean that I'm going to confront people that have been pissing me off. I've tried ignoring them and doing other things, and that lead to 2. I'm taking another approach. Why are you talking to me about my approach instead of taking your own advice and outlining your thoughts on people?

[The Pied Piper]

Pedit: I already explained it? I don't agree with it, but I CAN see how someone could get the wrong impression from a post that is essentially saying "yes, you don't understand what we're doing".

I can too, or else I wouldn't be telling dramonic he was annoying the shit out of me. I would be telling him that he is scum.

[The Pied Piper]

That shitty little "but wait, there's more!~" attempt

He's right. There is more.
So either we're lying and digging a deeper hole about the thing that's pissing off everyone so much, or, and bear with me here, THERE ACTUALLY IS MORE.

"We were crumbing an innocent on tictac."
"Why, what information role do you have?"
"We don't have an information role."
"Oh, so you are lying???"
"No, we crumbed an innocent on tictac because he said some shit in our neighborhood that seemed really town."
"Why would you do this?"
"Well, tictac is bulletproof and we told him to activate his bulletproof because we thought the vig shot him."
"Why did you think this?"

etc.
We're still getting asked questions, we're still getting asked to explain further. Yes, there is more.

[The Pied Piper]

that mudslinging at people who actually see you're BSing

Dramonic accusing us of "mudslinging" is ridiculous considering the source, but EVEN IGNORING THAT, Plot was saying that it's annoying as hell that people continuously pester us to reveal information that is pretty obviously anti-town when there isn't any scum motivation in revealing that we had it other than fending off lynch pressure that, again, didn't exist, and that they had trouble believing that somehow all those townies were that annoyingly stupid.

[The Pied Piper]

that awful speculation based on vig requests,

I could explain why we're confident that Cakez is the Vig, but that seems pretty fucking anti-town and pretty fucking stupid. I'd love to know how "incorrectly speculating who the vig is" is a scumtell, though!

[The Pied Piper]

that appeasement aimed @TO,

I don't know what post this is referring to. I don't feel like looking it up because Plot's response seems to imply that he's referring to the post where Plot said that they were sick of talking with Ogre when it wasn't getting anywhere and that actually sounds like the opposite of appeasement for some strange reason but I'm sure that I'm missing something ~magical~ that only dramonic can see.

[The Pied Piper]

Wow, what an awesome and substantial post! And so pretty too! Kudos, dramonic.

[The Pied Piper]

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

"Connected with the goings-on of the rest of the town". What game are you reading and can I replace into that one and out of this one? What has Dwlee done other than tunnel us this entire game? How has he shown awareness with what's going on with the rest of the town when he barely shows awareness with what's going on with us?

[The Pied Piper]

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

Pip's first significant read was a scumread on tictac.
His first read's list had Axel as maybe town but maybe scum based on a specific tell, FS could be scum for ass backwards reads and was frustrating in general, didn't like you for your Ranger push, didn't like Podo for the 834 readslist, Sakura was ?, Tictac scum but improving, Skybird null. He had a theory that you and tictac were strongly connected. Attacked Podo in order to sheep dram (strong townread), read evolved to scumreading him for pushing a policy lynch. Started to read Podo as town (I think?), swapped to Axel. Switched to Skybird. Reread Skybird, thought she might be town, swapped to you. Reiterated case on Axel, continued pushing you.

Your characterization of Itle having you as "by far" his weakest read is either not reading or not understanding how fluid his scumreads were early game: he didn't have you as "the only one left" of the scumreads he could push; the only one that he got major pushback for was his Podo read. I don't even see where the Piper thing happened but I'd love for you to point it out to me.

[The Pied Piper]

The rest of your reads are weak, lazy, or/and insubstantial. I do think that bringing up the miller situation that it took you approximately 100 pages to get out of was something that you were far more likely to do as town than as scum, and I think that your reads don't really line up how I'd expect them to if you were scum; don't expect FS to fall as flat null if they're a partner or if they're town, you hedge on people you can safely call town as scum and you attack people who aren't getting lynched and who have a louder voice and more cred than you do.

[The Pied Piper]

-Plot literally asked people to TRUST your slot. There is zero reason to trust your slot, there is no solid evidence to your alignment. So no, "trust us it'll make sense" is a bullshit stance and a thinly veiled attempted at an Appeal to your own Authority. Furthermore you think you know how the newbs play better than the newb themselves. The only way you could be THIS confident is... obvious. I am eagerly awaiting for the " I told you so!~" posts from your slot when tictac flips town.

Oh god, Plot asked people to TRUST US. How utterly, utterly terrible!
Mirhawk was asked to trust us because while both playerslots have done things in the past that people didn't understand in the time, neither of us are known for doing things as town that are incredibly stupid for no fucking reason. Mirhawk didn't understand why we were softing an innocent on tictac to Cakez. We explained it, he understood. This situation is like that one; we have reasons for playing it the way that we are and explaining it is anti-town so maybe stop pestering us about it? The appeal to authority shit is a nonsense argument; asking people to trust us because we can't fully explain ourselves isn't an appeal to authority, it's asking people to trust us. An Appeal to Authority would be "vote him, he's obviously scum, you're all idiots for not seeing it" which sounds an awfully lot like what you're doing but nothing like what we're doing. Funny, that.

And yes, I think that I play better than someone brand new to the game when I have been playing it for 7 years. I don't think that this is an unreasonable or horrendously arrogant assumption to make. Are you really trying to argue this point?

[The Pied Piper]

-You have been crumbing speculative results and treating them as gospel, further using those (fake) results to push your agenda, most obvious case being driving the lynch off of tictac based on getting neighborized. That is flimsy

We've been crumbing reads that we have based on inside information, and we crumbed it to the vig because the vig thought that his failed shot was added evidence for a player that we have pretty great reasons to think is town for being scum. We've been treating them as gospel because we're confident, just like a little owl that I know that's treating his scumreads like gospel because he's confident. We haven't described why we think that Cakez is the vig in detail because this seems incredibly and stupidly anti-town, but it really wouldn't be too difficult to do that.

[The Pied Piper]

-I don't think what I do (call everyone trash) and what Plot is doing (call anyone who disagrees with their opinion on information dispensal antitown) really fit on the same scale, but whatever. half-baked crumbs read bull is absurdly scummy to do and pretending people hounding you on it are antitown is ludicrous anyways.

You're correct. Calling people trash for not sharing your reads is ACTUALLY mudslinging while calling people anti-town for attempting to powerroles is not mudslinging. It is not on the same scale at all. Half-baked crumbs: where were our crumbs half-baked? We said that we thought tictac was town. We crumbed this to the vig. We said that we weren't explaining it because explaining it was equivalent to outing power roles. These are half-baked crumbs, these are pretty full crumbs and crumbing isn't scummy unless you can assign scum motivation to it, which I'm pretty sure you're incapable of unless you have some actually not-shit reasoning that you've been hiding up your sleeve for some unspeakable reason.

[The Pied Piper]

-vig spec goes back to "WE HAVE INFO!~" that is pretty obviously a lie, pushed further by the fact cakez counterclaimed your ass. Speculating on people's role is null, pretending your speculations are gospel is not.

Vig spec goes back to we had info: the information was neighborhood posting only we were privvy to and the knowledge that tictac activated a bulletproof last night. That's information. That's not a lie. If Cakez was the vig, do you think he would go "great job guys! i'm actually the vig!"? No. He wouldn't, because that's completely idiotic, so using that as "cakez counterclaiming our ass" is dumb. Still interested why confidence is apparently scummy when you're dripping with it. Is it because we're only supposed to be confident about scum/town reads and being confident about anything else automatically means that we're scum?

[The Pied Piper]

Plot....did outline a number of quotes pointing to the vig connection for cakez. So....I don't really know what extra information you have thar you could share about it.

I don't actually understand why cakez, as a vig, would think it more likely that tictac was scum because his shot failed. BP is NAI when multiple teams have killing abilities. Why did you guys think he'd view it as extra cause to suspect tictac?

I can address counterarguments, and I can explain why I agreed that Cakez is the vig. Do you want me to elaborate? Do you think that elaborating if I am correct is a good move? Do you think that I would say that I could provide more information if I couldn't, regardless of alignment?

Cakez shoots tictac and tictac doesn't die. If Tictac is scum, possible explanations: scum blocked Cakez because they thought he was the vig about to shoot tictac. Scum protected tictac because they thought he was a likely vig shot. Tictac is bulletproof to counter Cakez. If tictac is town, tictac is bulletproof. If I shot a strong scumread of mine and they didn't die, I would probably double my efforts in getting them lynched the next day too.

[The Pied Piper]

Cerb, do you see why I'm townreading Mirhawk?

[The Pied Piper]

You could have made one big post instead of separating everything, it's a hassle to reply to <_<

It's an annoyance to reply to you so it's good to know that I can get under your skin a tiny little bit by making posting more shit comments directed towards us just a little bit harder

[The Pied Piper]

UNVOTE: Mirhawk
VOTE: Piper

Why do you keep unvoting Mirhawk? We have less than a day left.

Would you vote FS if it was viable?

[The Pied Piper]

@Itle:

The rest of your reads are weak, lazy, or/and insubstantial. I do think that bringing up the miller situation that it took you approximately 100 pages to get out of was something that you were far more likely to do as town than as scum, and I think that your reads don't really line up how I'd expect them to if you were scum; don't expect FS to fall as flat null if they're a partner or if they're town, you hedge on people you can safely call town as scum and you attack people who aren't getting lynched and who have a louder voice and more cred than you do.

The rest of the read is mostly founded on him sounding genuine and his play making no sense coming from a scum perspective, but I'll expand on this when I'm done catching up.

[The Pied Piper]

A town protective could have also protected him for the same reason. And cakez being blocked, could have happened independent of tictac alignment.

Plus...it's entirely possible the vig could have simply NOT shot last night. Maybe they have limited shots? Maybe they have a non-consecitive limitation. Maybe they just didn't have anybody whose death they felt was likely to improve the game state for town?

Your conclusion is, like, ridiculous and way too focused on one possibility, rather than all of them.

And, I didn't see anything in your recent posting that looked like you were townreading mirhawk.

You said "why do you think that he'd regard a failed shot as reason to push tictac" but you're responding like my answer wasn't referring to that.

[The Pied Piper]

The vig mindset that you're also describing is also incredibly rare on this site or else Bad Idea mafia games wouldn't unfold in the same way every time. This is not my first assumption in a majority of cases. You're right that the vig could be limited-shot, but I don't really think that this is incredibly likely. Us being convinced that Cakez is the vig explains where we were coming from when we crumbed to explain to him specifically but isn't relevant to anything else unless you really want me to outline why I think that Cakez is the vig, which wouldn't be the most anti-town thing that I've done this game.

[The Pied Piper]

I was going to go fuck all y'all and not give a full reads list, as I'm moderately annoyed with several players in this game, but I'm in a better mood today and that's kinda childish so I'll throw one together.

What's the point of saying this? "I wasn't going to do the thing but I decided to do it anyway--lucky you!!"

If he's coming from the perspective that I'm coming from, being transparent about your emotions instead of trying to be polite and proper is surprisingly refreshing. Why do you think he would say this if he was scum?

[The Pied Piper]

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

Me or you. We're not doing this shit tomorrow.

[The Pied Piper]

And no, I'm saying why do you think a vig with a failed shot wouldn't consider all the options, and instead you assumed they'd act as though they knew the shot failed because the target was scum? I don't get how you get to the situation where you feel you have to soft tictacs innocence to the person you think is the vig, on the strength of a possible failed shot on him.

Cakez is an impulsive person with a preexisting scumread on the person he shot. Certain people have a tendency to get biased pretty easily and things like "failed to kill when vigged" can be the straw that break the camel's back.

[The Pied Piper]

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

Me or you. We're not doing this shit tomorrow.

Oh, and if you want to lynch me? Push me. Stop waffling around, stop complaining, stop trying to get out of this because you're the one who created this shitshow and continuously fueled it, prodded it along, and once it looked like killing us was going to be harder than it seemed at first you backed out and ran away. Stand your fucking ground or die.

[The Pied Piper]

Nope. Why is it scum?

[The Pied Piper]

I WANT TO LYNCH SCUM

YOU WANT TO TURN THIS INTO A PETTY FEUD.

IM FUCKING BATMAN. YOU'RE NOT MY JOKER, YOU DONT COMPLETE ME

You want to lynch scum. If I'm scum and you don't lynch me today, I kill someone that has the potential to lynch me tomorrow and then I'm harder to lynch the next day. If you think I'm scum and you want to lynch me, you lynch me right here and right now.

I'm not trying to turn this into a petty feud, I'm sick of this bullshit way that you've been pushing me, I think that you're scum, I'm not going to continue to put up with it.

[The Pied Piper]

Mine are more expansive, I have substantial reads

Like what?

[The Pied Piper]

I am quite willing to vote axel. Nacho, what's your read there?

I think he's scummy because he doesn't do shit. I'm not going to compromise from FS because he doesn't do shit unless you can either convince me that FS is town or you can convince me that Axel is scummier than FS.

[The Pied Piper]

Because this "oh look Nacho's pissed off! I'm BATMAN! You're not even the Joker!" and "you're trying to make this a 1v1! you're trying to make this a petty fight! you don't have reads but I DO" is not how FS behaves when their top scumread is digging their heels in and trying to make it a 1v1 with all the bravado that he's been showing; he's been bitching for pages and pages on how hard I am to lynch but when he actually has the opportunity, he backs off. Do you really think that's coming from town, Cerb?

[The Pied Piper]

fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...

hmmm?

vote the pipers plz they make enough noise you dont need to

I CANT DO IT, I CANT DO IT
THATS NOT ME
I'M A LOSER, IM A COWARD
IM A CHICKEN DONT YOU SEEEEEEEEE

piper is scum. its pre obvious

piper isn't going to die because theyre a wallposter and lazy posters see that as a town thing.

sigh.

I am currently both Plotinus and Nacho; come talk to me. I remember in the future that hiplop says something like he didn't like Plot's clumsy wagon handling but that doesn't exactly seem like a scum tell to me (and especially not like a Plotinus-specific one); did you have a different reason for being uncomfortable with Plot? What did you think of their reads?

It is. they are playing very akin to butterfly mafia. And I expect yall to be going after someone...better than skybird? who is like consistently mislynched in games? It seems very planned, which is the defining quality of plotscum. Someone else said this is nachscum sooo.... their ways of interacting with me just seem way off!

other one is for ep, idk

Dwlee slot = town

Cerb slot moves down. He seems to be hella trying to take advantage of Dwlee here. I'm sorry. Fucking cerbs case is "ranger thought it"? Bullshit. This isn't town cerb.

Let's Lynch Piper.

Pip, axel etc, the important thing here is that your case seems to be based on skubird not playing well. Honestly, your points are irrelevant to alignment. Town fucks up too.

Vote actual scummy person Piper, please? Not just mislynch bait.

Dwlee is 100% right. People forget scumreada all the time. Shit happens. Cerb knows that, and him pushing this angle is ridiculous. Same with Nacho (IMO top 10 scumhujters on site), Plotinus (spectacular)

These people pushing a case this bad is just plain scummy.

Why are you presuming that Mir is town here?

Thoughts on Piper now.

This is a terrible vote. As itlepip said, burden of proficiency. Your problem with the slot is that they haven't provided "penetrating analysis". Seriously?

cerb you're going OUT OF YOUR WAY to discredit the plotcase.

Look at how she is interacting with dram, that isn't town trying to show their side, its a strawman. A discredit. A chest pound.

It has LOTS more to do than just meta, axel. This is a slot with like 2029382838 words in their posts that have said like...2 things of actual content. This is a slot changing their reads based on convenience (Scumreads all day yesterday...now hard townreads me to no tomorrow? Same with people like skybird. Her read progression is illogical, fake, planned.

Plot is very good at recreating meta; but the important thing is that, she actively tries to recreate it. Shes gotten caught doing that poorly.

ew wtf. how are you townreading TICTAC?

are you kidding me? Being unsure, okay I agree, I can see that. Tictac as...town? ludicrous. You don't understand the actual tone of this game which is why you're scum.

plot that sentence you dissected makes perfect sense. Sorry, it does.

I said you replicate town meta as scum and methodically create situations where reads can make sense

your reads feels fake and replicated

ergo, scum.

very different than what you're saying

your unstoppable townread on pipers for no reason is honestly SO frustrating

SO VOTE TPP CERB

only one with an actual case besides "u playbad"

pied piper drooling for a lynch

no one sees them as scum...STILL?!

so disappointed.

VOTE: Pied pipers

Obvious reasons. their weird handling of the skybird wagon, overall scummy play.

Tictac okay too

i'm quoting all of your mentions of us and all of your mentions of axel starting from the most recent page of your ISO.
do you want me to go further or do you want to admit right here that your little "I scumread you both the same!" argument is complete and total bullshit?

[The Pied Piper]

dear.

[The Pied Piper]

THE 1V1 ISNT HAPPENING.

WE HAVEN'T GOT THE SUPPORT EITHER WAY

SMARTEN UP AND BUS YOUR PARTNER

I don't mind staying here and talking people about their reads on you because I have a feeling that the big fight that I'll have to face today is convincing people to actually read your posts and I have a feeling that won't be too difficult at all. I've also heard the "you don't have the support" line before, plenty of times, but if you don't fight then you won't drown and I don't think you have the fight because even if you pour ALLL of this effort into lynching me today and somehow succeed, you won't be able to escape tomorrow.

[The Pied Piper]

I can't convince you of either of those things.

You could if you put some work into it. Can't convince anyone if shit if all you can say is "they feel town!".

[The Pied Piper]

And really, even if you don't want to put in work and you're stuck in lazy mode, describe to me the perspective of these last few posts:

You want to lynch scum. If I'm scum and you don't lynch me today, I kill someone that has the potential to lynch me tomorrow and then I'm harder to lynch the next day. If you think I'm scum and you want to lynch me, you lynch me right here and right now.

I've been calling axel scum just as long as I've beenc alling you scum, honey.

I point out that if I'm scum, the chances of me getting lynched go down every day that one of FS/we aren't lynched today, not up. His response is "I've been calling Axel scum for a really long time!" even though he's been absolutely obsessed with our slot and not absolutely obsessed with Axel's. I don't think he'd be so willing to compromise if he was scum and just really thought that I was scum and wanted to lynch me; the Mirhawk push in particular looks COMPLETELY out of whack because if Mirhawk flips town, he looks worse and we look better and it makes it more justifiable for us as scum to lynch him. When we call out his reasons for scumreading us as the pieces of shit that they are, he backs off and talks about we aren't in a 1v1 and we can't make it one and how his reads are so substantial and ours aren't instead of saying "no, here are the reasons why you are scum" and at least attempting to defend them like dramonic did.

Do you really think that's town, Cerb?

[The Pied Piper]

THE 1V1 ISNT HAPPENING.

WE HAVEN'T GOT THE SUPPORT EITHER WAY

SMARTEN UP AND BUS YOUR PARTNER

Does this read like a genuine response to you?

[The Pied Piper]

can we PLEASE lynch axel OR piper.

Pick one.

And what the fuck is he doing going from this to "IT'S NOT A 1V1 BETWEEN US! I KNOW YOU WANT TO MAKE IT ONE BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE I HAVE MORE SUBSTANTIAL READS HUEHUEHUEHUEHE"? Axel has 4 votes. I have 2. Dramonic would vote us, FS would move over, Mirhawk would move over, there's plenty of paranoia abounding on us from all angles. Why isn't he pushing us today when this is, again, the best opportunity to get us lynched?

Because he knows that if we 1v1, he will die, and he knows that there is no way in hell that we get mislynched after he flips scum.

[The Pied Piper]

UNVOTE: Mirhawk
VOTE: Piper

Why do you keep unvoting Mirhawk? We have less than a day left.

Would you vote FS if it was viable?

Absolutely. FS is my first choice of lynch, but I'm a lot more scared of a no lynch than I am of lynching town.

Will you be around near deadline?

[The Pied Piper]

VOTE: mirhawk

I was wrong once maybe wrong again

I'm just so tired of being ignored dram :\

we're right, but these people will NEVER listen.

and maybe pressure in this direction can help out

be sad.

I don't want him to die

It's blatant survivalism sure. Pretty lazy too. Why are you being so lazy in your attempt to stay alive FS??

Survivalist still isn't AI. :/

are you fucking kidding me?

seriously?

I push and push trying to gamesolve ALL FUCKING GAME WHILE BEING BACKED INTO A CORNER. PUSHING PEOPLE THAT AREN'T POPULAR

I FUCKING BANDWAGON ONE TIME AND YOU SAY THIS?!

YOURE THE ONE DOING NOTHING, CERB.

[The Pied Piper]

Pedit: that one does actually? I mean it reads as exactly what I'm thinking, like the whole idea of you two 1ving at this stage in the day is hilarious, and I even outlined right after why a lynch wouldn't be happening in the set of {FS, TPP} today.

You think that he thinks that this situation is hilarious? Why? It doesn't really mesh with his play anywhere else during this day, does it?

[The Pied Piper]

Also, I'm null on that entire exchange between the two of you. I see your point, I don't think it's impossible for him to do that as town (or even especially unlikely). Of course, I think part of this is because I've only ever seen hiplop at length as scum, and he isn't playing the way I recall seeing him play as scum.

I don't think that it's impossible for him to do it as town, I just don't think it's particularly likely at all. I don't think "he didn't do this as scum when I saw him as scum" is a particularly good reason to townread him, but I'm saying this while not really having an idea what games you saw him as scum in or what you think "this" that he didn't do is.

[The Pied Piper]

Why would he, as town, pretend that his reads on Axel and his reads on me were equivalent? Do you really think that's the case?

[The Pied Piper]

Rob: Could you send out a mass-prod that doesn't count against activity but would get more players in thread this close to deadline?

[The Pied Piper]

By which I mean your welcome for leaving you all a comprehensive reads list so you can see what my thoughts on all the players in the game were after I'm dead. It's no big deal, it only took up an hour of my time.

I'm glad to see that you read it thoroughly and have questions or opinions on the things I said.

I'm not at all annoyed/disappointed with you for only having an opinion on an inane nothing comment I threw out there before making it.

This is also a post I think that is more likely to come from town; antagonizing an IC as scum when there's a wagon on you is a great way to get yourself lynched. If he was scum, I'd expect that this post would be worded a bit more diplomatically.

[The Pied Piper]

Also, they did lie. They said they couldnt explain their read on Tictac without outing a whole bunch of PR's.

The question that Plot was answering when they said we couldn't elaborate on something without outing a bunch of PRs was in response to itlepip asking WHY we crumbed the inno on Tictac, which we couldn't explain without outing PRs and wasn't a lie. You're right that we could have handled it better as either alignment, but that's not significant unless you believe we have a strong incentive to handle it as one alignment over another.

[The Pied Piper]

I could be swayed onto an Axel wagon.
Just sayin

I'd do this, but it actually feels like Mirhawk's just given up and I don't know what to make of that.

Axel's had his "communication issues" for half or more of this dayphase and I think regardless of what happens today he's in the spotlight tomorrow.

This, incidentally, is a pretty good answer to your question, Cerb.
Compromising on Axel is a compromise that isn't going to make the game move forward in any way whatsoever. The only thing that happens tomorrow if Axel is lynched is the day that's happening right now until it gets really close to deadline and then people compromise on me or FS and one of us gets lynched. I know that you think that the thread sentiment is sitting on their thumbs and doing nothing and will inevitably end up on the top two wagons because people are too lazy to do anything different, but I disagree; again, if people actually show up and if people read FS's posts, I don't think that they will be unwilling to vote him, and I'm willing to put in all the effort and work that it takes to make him dead.

[The Pied Piper]

I think a lot of people have written Cakez off as town the whole game because they liked his early posting.

I

liked his early posting. But that was more or less just a "gut" feeling. And when you look at his actual behavior, and his logic this game - and especially his votes - it's just not Townie.

I think the first niggle that caught my attention was when Cakez was so willing to write off Dramonic's play as just "Dram being Dram" and basically said He always plays like this regardless whether Town or scum, so Cakez was willing to just completely give him a pass. And that's both (1) lazy, and (2) poor play. Incidentally, it looked like Cakez was using a sample size of 1 prior game experience to make this read, which is also not great.

I think more than one person suggested that at the very least Dram would be a good vig. target because of his play/unreadability, and I think it's worth noting that, when Cakez was proposing targets for any Vig to shoot at, he pushed hard for Snarky, and then suggested TicTac, and didn't mention Dram at all. And when challenged on why not Dramonic, he conceded Dram would be OK, but still preferred the others. And his logic here makes no sense. Because if someone is both (1) useless and (2) unreadable, which Dram unquestionably was being the first, and Cakez was arguing the second, then doesn't that make them the ideal vig. shot? It's the same logic he was using to push for Snarky, but somehow it didn't apply to Dramonic?

Anyway, that was just one little bit of inconsistency in his logic

Ranger Wagon

Then there was the whole Ranger Wagon. I already posted about this. Cakez did a complete 180 on Ranger in less than a day. Making a big post on why he thinks Ranger is Town one day, then turning around and voting her the next. He tried to say it like it was Ranger or nobody, but there was a completely viable alternate wagon - FS almost

got

lynched D1. I think less than ~6 hrs before the deadline his lynch was being more or less assumed because there wasn't "time" to vote anyone else. But Cakez didn't vote for him. Cakez voted Mirhawk. Cakes voted TicTac. Even though he had made a whole "Why Seniors is scum" post just a day before. This is the kind of stuff I'm taking about.

And even as he was voting Ranger, Cakez appeared to be trying to set up the following days lynches without any consideration for what the flips were going to be. He said he "demanded" we open with a TicTac wagon tomorrow, and, true to his word, voted TicTac immediately (also did the

exact

same thing on D3, vote now abandoned). I'm not saying that his read on TicTac should have necessarily changed after Ranger/Spiffeh/Tammy flips, but the behavior there is something that scum just often do. It's just easy and convenient. TicTac was going to be scum regardless of how Ranger flipped - which, if your reason for believing that is independent, fine, but Cakez was then trying to

use

the Ranger flip to support his TicTac vote. Which is weird because he also said that we should look at TicTac if Ranger had flipped scum. And you can't do that both ways. Not if you're being honest.

Possible slip Here, when Cakes makes the statement that "this isn't an elaborate game like Tarot," (and then that only "very standard roles" had been flipped). How could he say that based on the info. we had at the time? Not unless Cakez had access to a lot more role information than was genreally available. This was also just not a reason to Townread FS. Pointed out multiple times that Fruit Vender is a role that can go either on Town or scum. But now, apparently he's got FS as a "strong" Townread.

Skybird Wagon

Is notable because Cakez WAS voting for Skybird on D2. And it was the leading wagon, but he then

left

the wagon to try and push the alternate (Mirhawk). His reasoning: he was "No longer confident" about Skybird, and Mirhawk was "better", without explaining/arguing either. He did late say that Skybird could die (pretty much right at the end when the lynch was foregone conclusion though, and he still didn't vote there, though it didn't matter).

I also note, he did the same thing with Dramonic on D2 as D1. Even though he

said

that vigging Dramonic was the best way tio deal with him, earlir in the day, when he came out with his late in the day list of Vig. Targets, Dramonic was not on it.

I already made the point here about how it appeared Cakez started to default to "meta" reads on a lot of people late in the day. Basically just saying so-and-so feels this way or that based on his experience with them, which is super lazy/convenient. And that has continued.

Also, on a more personal basis, I point out that Cakez has been saying he could vote me forever, and not once made an actual argument for it, despite saying he would do so. And this most recent vote is literally him taking a census/dipping his toe in the water/finger to the wind and saying "Hey, there have been a lot of people who have said they could get behind an Axelrod lynch, so how about this..."

He has now been more or less throwing out the same names (Mirhawk, TicTac, me) the entire game as his scum-reads. And very little comment on other people. I already dissected his "cases" on both of them (TicTac, bad; Mirhawk, kind of null).

So, yeah, bad logic, bad votes, myopic scumhunting.

Vote: SirCakez

I don't know if this can go anywhere in the time we have, but there's nothing Townie here.

And then Axelrod makes posts like this which demonstrate how completely and genuinely disconnected and lost he is from the rest of the game. My major reason for him being scum is less that he's done nothing and more that it feels like everything he posts is wheels spinning and he never seems to get anywhere; I think that it's decently possible that he's this wheel-spinny as town, and I don't think if this is his idea of not getting lynched as scum than he will be able to do anything to escape being lynched later. The last time I played with him, it was multi-ball and I thought he was scum for similar reasons but in the very very end he finally starting making very strong posts and suddenly I had a townread on him, and part of me is still waiting for him to breakout the content here that he did there. I can't see anything changing with my FS read; he's been given plenty of space, he's done nothing with it. He needs to die.

[The Pied Piper]

Marquis, is there ANYTHIng I do tht you consider a towntell. It sure doesn't seem like it. How many times have you made this exact post bit replaced self awareness with something else

Sigh. You're probably scum.

marquis literally did it in my last game with him as scum

won the game off of it, too.

Don't like these two posts; there's the same exact perception of Marquis that Skybird had with the "you never read me as town but you're scum this game for reading me as scum". I don't understand why this would pop up in this specific circumstance, either; Marquis was pointing out that hiplop's self-awareness wasn't town because the way he tried to make his Mirhawk push look town was skeevy as hell and I'm pretty sure hiplop knows that isn't particularly alignment indicative for him.

[The Pied Piper]

I can talk with you, EP.
I'm looking at one of your catchup posts now.

[The Pied Piper]

tpp, you're being intentionally obtuse.

I scumread you more than axel. Axel has been a consistent read. You're missing that.

Axel dies today

Axel is a consistent read that you've had for a while but not mentioned at all despite mentioning and tunneling me constantly. And then, when you actually have the opportunity to lynch us, you back off.

[The Pied Piper]

"Axel is a consistent read" doesn't come close to touching my concerns on that.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm finding it hard to understand why cakez is being townread early game by, like, everyone.

Whose early townreads on Cakez were you having trouble understanding?

Mirhawk says "skybird's acting really weird" in 910, vote is on dave, just a thought
A Mirhawk scumflip means cerb is more town.

Mirhawk's dave scumread was his pet scumread for a while: do you think that it makes sense for him to swap votes onto Skybird if town?

Okay, so cakez might be town based on some of the later D1 stuff.
Axel being town based on later D1 stuff is coherent with Mirhawk being scum, I guess?

What was the later stuff that made you think Cakez/Axel might be town?

I want to say the worst vote on the dramonic wagon is probably podo.

Why did you dislike it? I thought that Podo's dislike of dramonic seemed pretty genuine and am having difficulty seeing a new player pushing through a policy lynch on as a tactic to be read as town and don't really see a newbie getting that clearly annoyed with a player like that if scum.

now i'm thinking that it's safe to say that both cakez and cerb should not get lynched anytime soon

Why do you think this?

[The Pied Piper]

Nacho, I really don't understand you right now. You say things like these and then you say that Axel is scum.
I don't want you dead today. I want Axel to get lynched. I think an Axel townflip begs for a mirhawk/dramonic vi

My problem with compromising right now is that I feel like my reasons for your slot being scum are a lot stronger for my reasons for any other slot being town and I don't want to compromise and shuffle off to another lynch to face the same thing tomorrow because this game is not really fun for me or Plot at the moment. If I felt better about the game, if I didn't think that you guys were that strong of scumreads, then I'd be a hell of a lot more willing to compromise. Hell, even if hiplop just calmed the hell down and posted something that even seemed vaguely town, I'd be more willing to compromise.

Axel in particular feels like a bad compromise target to me as well because he's someone I'm not confident in reading that well and he's someone who seems genuinely lost, and is someone who I think could look a lot better once he found his footing in the game. I also haven't really been reading this game that closely and don't have a lot of reads I feel confident enough to compromise on right now.

But then again- you don't think that this town is large enough for the both of us.
That's fine. You want Axel dead, right? I want axel dead. I don't understand this attitude of "if axel is scum, he'll get lynched eventually." In fact, I really don't like that attitude.
If you want, then the hypothetical vig-that-still-has-bullets-left can decide our fates.

If the hypothetical vig wasn't townreading both of us, I'd feel better in leaving it at that, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Do you want to talk to me about anything that I've said? Not hiplop- me.

The only thing that I need from you is more stuff - I don't really need big walls, I just need you to dive in and think about what's going on in this game a little bit more. It's frustrating because I understand where you're coming from and I realize that it's incredibly difficult for you to post some things and somehow undo my read on hiplop, but I'm not really sure what other approach that we could take here.

[The Pied Piper]

Although one thing that I've been wondering about - have you talked to hiplop about Mirhawk at all? Has hiplop talked to you about me specifically at all? What's been said there?

[The Pied Piper]

Cakez, why are you townreading hiplop?

[The Pied Piper]

I don't think Axel is scum, and Hiplop's recent posts have been town as fuck so I'm not going there.

What has been town about hiplop's most recent posts?

[The Pied Piper]

I'm quoting this as well:

There are only four truly horrible games that I can remember: Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Pikmin,

Fire Emblem: Awakening

, and SMITE.

Fuck you Nacho. That was a cool game and it's where I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb.

The setup was cool. The game was not.

[The Pied Piper]

I am sorry if you found something special in that game and good for you if you did but that game was a shitshow.

[The Pied Piper]

I wouldnt lynch myself over them but I also wouldnt WANT to lynch my town read

but they aren't a townread for him

[The Pied Piper]

UNVOTE: Mirhawk
VOTE: Piper

Cerb, what made you think that Ogre was townreading us?

[The Pied Piper]

It was the crumbing/soft-claiming in the first place, plus the (butthurt although i've been told not to say that in previous games) followed by the "reveal" which is worrying.

We've explained part of why we crumbed what we did when we did. I understand why the reveal was irritating, but I don't understand how it's worrying, considering how I play as scum in general.

[The Pied Piper]

Not voting piper or Mirhawk ftr

Vote FS, please.

[The Pied Piper]

Hi Mirhawk! I responded a bunch to your posts - would you mind responding to them ASAP since I'm around and other people aren't? <3

[The Pied Piper]

I won't be able to respond to Mirhawk or EP right this second since I'm headed out but:

And that isn't the mindset that you're portraying when you're engaging me. Does that make sense, nacho?

It does because that's the mindset that I have when I'm responding to you. In you, I see a player who is in a similar place that I am and I don't want to compound on that feeling by shutting you out completely whereas every post hiplop makes is simultaneously aggravating, nonsensical, and scummy as shit. If hiplop is town, there's probably no way in hell that he'll be able to fix my read on him when all he does is pop up to push my buttons, but the way you're approaching me right now is really really appreciated from this end so I'm willing to try to take a step back and give your slot another chance, if that makes sense. I don't want to compromise right now but if you are willing to show me the view of the game that you're talking about then we're taking the right steps to move forward.

[The Pied Piper]

Cerb, do you see why I'm townreading Mirhawk?

The fuck is this.

If you're townreading me why are you asking me all these pointless aggressive questions about my reads that have nothing to do with who's going to be lynched today?

I'm out. I seriously got to go now.

Leaving with this as it's scummy as fuck.

Why on earth would you ask a friggin metric ton of aggressive questions to a townread right before the deadline when they're about to be lynched?

More like Piper wants me lynched, but wants to be calling me town when it happens.

The questions are aggressive because of mood and how far from reality the reads in particular are. It should be obvious why I'm asking a townread questions about their reads but if you really need that explained I'll give it a whirl later.

[The Pied Piper]

As far as I can tell not much has changed since I was here last.

I've addressed the big claim situation that everyone hates so much, which is something I'm surprised Podo hasn't responded to yet!

[The Pied Piper]

Maybe I only looked at cakez from a surface level, but his play doesn't seem too far removed from how he usually plays. Which is the kind of stuff that gets him scumread

I understand this easily enough, but your comment there made it look a bit more like you were scumreading him and confused how people were reading him as town, which apparently was not the case.

I think i mentioned earlier that Mirhawk's vote progession made a decent amount of sense, when talking about the skybird vote later d1.

Do you mean later, not earlier? If you thought that it made a decent amount of sense, then why bring up that Mirhawk made a comment on Skybird when voting dave?

axel were actually engaging with the game in a way that made sense.

I wouldn't mind hearing more about this, and I wouldn't really mind hearing what you liked about Cakez's engagement in particular.

in the case of C, why did you tell us in the first place? There was no reason to if you weren't willing to talk about it. Also I'd appreciate it if you stopped pretending that everyone was out to get your info. Nobody's asking for it. I've repeatedly said I don't care about it and that it isn't significant to my case.

We claimed the tictac inno to Cakez because we thought that he was the vig who shot tictac and failed, which is something that we've explained before. We said that we could out a bunch of PRs because we were questioned on why we couldn't out the inno on tictac. My point with bringing up the difference between "a couple" and "a bunch" is not to large and there's literally no scum motivation to say "a bunch" instead of "a couple" since "a couple" would be a strong deterrent. People are asking for more information when they ask things like "why'd you say you outed a bunch of PRs?", and when they're saying "I don't understand why you are so confident Cakez is the vig"; in the first scenario, they are asking me to explain that there are other PRs that could have been outed, and in the second, they're asking me to elaborate on our Cakez!vig read. You can say that they aren't explicitly asking for information and you'd be right but there is no way that I can answer this question without elaborating on that information.

Does that make sense?

[The Pied Piper]

Also I've said more than once what benefits scum would gain from this, If you think those aren't benefits then say why. You're acting like I'm accusing you of something totally unreasonable, when in fact it is quite reasonable.

I'm thinking more along the lines that Piper realized that in order to justify the things they've already said they have to be able to produce the role of both Tictac and another person, and they can't do that.

You said that we were scum who said that we knew the role of two players and couldn't produce the roles of two players. The scum motivation for saying that you can produce information on multiple roles when you really can't is zilch for players who are halfway decent because saying things that you can't back up in any convincing way whatsoever is usually incredibly fucking dumb.

Piper, saying you don't want to reveal your role to protect the vig isn't necessary if you picked up on the Vig's role via breadcrumbs.

We didn't want to reveal our information to protect the vig because the reason we crumbed that information in the first place was so the vig wouldn't keep suspecting someone we strongly felt was town and either tunnel them or shoot them again the next night.

I'm not seeing a benefit in saying you had to out multiple PR's to explain your read on Tictac, would you care to explain it to me.

Again, to explain our read on tictac wasn't the question. To explain our intent behind crumbing an innocent on tictac and not really wanting to talk about it was.

Town you would not have done this without a reason, and before you claim you don't remember again I should point out that I don't believe that for a second. There's no way a player as methodical as you would lie to everyone, then forget why you did it.

The only exaggeration that I haven't explained is the exaggeration between "a bunch of PRs" and "a couple". If you really think that the difference between "a bunch" and "a couple" is enough to lynch us over then you probably need to take a couple steps back and think about what you're arguing about in this specific scenario.

[The Pied Piper]

This is an open question to everyone by the way since piper isn't here.

In what scenario does a town player decide to lie about how much information will be revealed instead of just saying that they didn't want to say.

There's no reason to do so.

Instead of?
We said that we didn't want to talk about it. People pressed us. We said we didn't want to talk about it. People pressed us.
Eventually, we had a different reaction which was to out part of the information.

[The Pied Piper]

I think that calling Cakez vig is obviously garbage, and I think it's a lie rather than something you legitimately believe.

Okay, let's talk about this first. Why do you believe that it's a lie as opposed to something I could legitimately believe?

[The Pied Piper]

They later admitted that the only PR they would have to out was Tictac himself. This was in 4302.

How on earth is that your interpretation of 4302?

Also see this post:

"We were crumbing an innocent on tictac."
"Why, what information role do you have?"
"We don't have an information role."
"Oh, so you are lying???"
"No, we crumbed an innocent on tictac because he said some shit in our neighborhood that seemed really town."
"Why would you do this?"
"Well, tictac is bulletproof and we told him to activate his bulletproof because we thought the vig shot him."
"Why did you think this?"

Explaining a question only brings two more.

[The Pied Piper]

you claim to be a lot better than all of the newbs, I'm a newb, and I know that Cakez isn't the vig

You should be better at figuring that out than I am.

You know that Cakez isn't the vig? How?

[The Pied Piper]

When I sa

[The Pied Piper]

When I say that I'm better than a lot of newer players, it doesn't mean that I'm right 100% of the time more than they are. It means that I can appeal to a wider range of audiences when scum (because I've seen more playstyles than they have) and I can generally understand where people are coming from more often as town and avoid common pitfalls (because I've fallen into them before).

[The Pied Piper]

So you know that Cakez is the vig because you know who the real vig is?

[The Pied Piper]

For some indescribable reason? Or you know that Cakez isn't the vig because you know what his real role is?

[The Pied Piper]

Why would you bring up that you know Cakez isn't the vig if you don't want to talk about it?

[The Pied Piper]

OK.
Why would I lie about thinking Cakez is the vig?

[The Pied Piper]

As scum, you're claiming to "know" all this stuff about the town, and presenting yourself as an easy leader. It's clearly working, because most people townread you, and most people are trusting what you're saying, especially in a game where it appears a lot of players just aren't reading, and are inclined to trust the player who seems to be doing the most.

People naturally regard us as a leader because we post a lot of posts and we post long posts. Getting a leader position that we already have by being loud by saying we "know things" about player's roles but having no capacity whatsoever to back it up is... stupid as shit, and doesn't make sense as scum motivation since it means we could get caught by people asking "what are the roles?".

[The Pied Piper]

Why would you bring up that you know Cakez isn't the vig if you don't want to talk about it?

Not wanting to talk about it is not the same as not wanting to reveal who I think the vig is.

(that wasn't a serious question)

[The Pied Piper]

As scum, to convince town that you are useful.

And why would I do this when the town already thinks that I am useful?

[The Pied Piper]

Meta. You're appealing to knowledge I don't have. I see clear scum motivation here. But hey, fair argument. Taken note of.

I'm appealing to what was happening earlier in the game; people were already looking at us as a leader before the whole claim business, and it's not like there's a player in the game who would go "they say they know things! they must be town and a leader!" and not "they're busting their ass this game and look at all that pushing they're doing! they must be town and a leader!"

[The Pied Piper]

As scum, to convince town that you are useful.

And why would I do this when the town already thinks that I am useful?

Wonder how long Nacho can pretend these posts don't exist.

Your posts? A pretty long time; not like they have an impact on the game.

[The Pied Piper]

I was looking at Marquis as a leader, because she had information. Actionable, real information. When you claim to have the same, it elevates your position from being a good player with strong reads to being more than that.

But, as scum, this is not a risk that's worth the reward. The only way that I can get anywhere by lying about information on ROLES that I don't have is by people not questioning it, and the benefit is that I'm elevated slightly above where I already am, and the place where I am is good enough where I can still push mislynches and get shit done. As scum, I wouldn't lie about something like role speculation when I could tell the truth instead and where a risk of that magnitude gains me basically nothing. I don't know why you think that I as scum would lie about Cakez being vig if I wanted to act like I knew things when I could just focus on the tictac neighborhood, and I don't know why you think that I would tell tictac to activate their bulletproof if I didn't think I knew who the vig was.

[The Pied Piper]

the way I view the information reveal on Tictac is that you never had to mention it at all.

Not arguing that I had to, but I did explain why I did.

[The Pied Piper]

One of FS or TPP must be scum, as far as I can tell. Seems obvious to lynch one of the two.

Where did this come from?

[The Pied Piper]

Also, you keep saying trust me. But the thing is, I don't. I don't have any reason to either, you haven't been the townest player around this game. Obviously I'm not either, but I'm not telling everyone to listen to me just cuz.

I think we said "trust me" once. The narrative right now is "leave me the fuck alone and try scumhunting something else because this isn't the only thing we've done this game".

[The Pied Piper]

One of FS or TPP must be scum, as far as I can tell. Seems obvious to lynch one of the two.

Where did this come from?

Do you not think that's accurate? You think there's a chance that you v FS is town v town?

That question wasn't about me.

[The Pied Piper]

But what you're doing in regards to our lynch is not helping town. I get that you don't want to face us tomorrow. But you are painting a picture that points to Axel scum, and here we are, agreeing with you.
Is it the fact that we're agreeing with you that you're becoming less confident in your axel scumread?

How is the way that I'm handling your lynch not helping town? I think that you're scum and I want you to die. I think that one of us dying progresses the game far more than lynching outside of us two and playing this same tired game tomorrow. I am not "painting a picture that points to Axel scum", though; I'm scumreading the slot, but it's not an immensely confident one. The only reason I brought it up was because Cerb asked me my read on him. If I was looking to compromise, I'd compromise on Dwlee but people seem determined to clear him but compromising on my third scumread because ??? seems kind of dumb just because some people are asking me to, don't you think?

this definitely doesn't gel with what i'm getting from the other stuff that you're saying about axel. Not one bit.

The other things I've said about Axel isn't really significant; I've called him scum a couple of times but I haven't really pursued him to any significant extent, whereas I've recently and significantly attacked you and dwlee. That suggests distance inbetween those reads.

[The Pied Piper]

You've tunneled FS so damn hard here, that I think it's clearly not bussing. If FS flips town, you're just wrong on a scale that I think points to scumminess rather than ignorance.

This line of thinking is sort of fucked.

[The Pied Piper]

If I flip town, I'm right about FS because I pushed it so hard. If FS flipped town, there's no way that I could be town because there's no way a townie could be so wrong. Right?

[The Pied Piper]

I had a feeling!

[The Pied Piper]

you spam the thread with long elaborate sentences and I dont have the mental capacity to deal with that and you did the same thing to me in history mafia.

<---isn't plotinus

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah, I get what you're talking about. But I think that you and I both know that it's highly unlikely that both of us are going to make it to the endgame.

Okay, sure. But delaying this sort of thing because I know it will get resolved

eventually

is the type of thing that isn't particularly convincing to me and is equivalent to masochism thanks to your typically lovely hydra partner.

That was pretty much just a really long way of saying- I'm not posting in an attempt to undo your read on hiplop. I didn't ask you to engage me because of your read on us. I asked you to engage me because I want your perspective on my outlook on the game as it stands if you're town, and to hold you accountable to leave behind associatives if you turn out to be scum, as WIFOM-esque as they may be, because I am confident that you don't live to endgame as the game state stands. Does that make sense?

If this is the case, then I understand your approach less - why ask me if I had any questions for you if you weren't trying to help my read on you instead of present your vision of the gamestate as a whole? What is your vision of the gamestate as a whole?

[The Pied Piper]

Nacho, if this weren't likely my last game on site for a significant period of time, i'd say something like this-

I'm really looking forward to playing with you in the future. From how you've interacted with me, you seem to care about the people behind the role that they get in the game. That's the kind of attitude that gets people to enjoy playing this game.

-EP

I'm really sad that this is the game where we've connected, and I'm especially sad that this the moment that we've managed to connect. I hope things go great for you in the future and I'm really grateful for the way that you've approached this game and I'm sorry if you're town. And if you do end up coming back eventually I'll still be around and I look forward to playing with you then and if you're interested in hydraing please let me know.

[The Pied Piper]

And if you're looking for specific things to talk about before you go to sleep, I'd rather you just talk about what you care about as opposed to addressing specific questions.

[The Pied Piper]

I am here and will continue to be here until the deadline; it falls in the afternoon in my time zone.

I apologise for my absence in the past few days, got bitten by something in the thread but I think I'm over it now.

[The Pied Piper]

Nacho thinks Mirhawk is town.

[The Pied Piper]

@itlepip, Marquis, pistachi0n + anyone else who'll be around in the next three hours: Seniors is at L-2. Let's make this happen so this game can finally move on and Day 4 won't be a repeat of Days 1-3. Once we have two scumflips, this game'll be in easy mode.

[The Pied Piper]

We can do this, we have two hours!

[The Pied Piper]

Hi Flubber! Thanks for voting Seniors!

[The Pied Piper]

Thank you, itlepip. I know it isn't what you wanted, but thank you for compromising.

[The Pied Piper]

Thanks Mirhawk!

[The Pied Piper]

This game is going to break me.

I'm gonna reread stuff. Figure out where I went wrong.

[The Pied Piper]

Yeah, well, someone thought "she looks so helpless and her body's saying hell yes" was remotely an acceptable thing to say in a fucking game thread so yeah i'm avoiding the game thread so as not to ruin everybody else's enjoyment until I calm down but I've been making ISO maps in my hydra PT and i'm about halfway done with Axel's ISO. Nacho's been pretty busy right now with Chicago meet coming up but he hopes to have time for this soon.

[The Pied Piper]

While I'm here, though:

Interesting wording you have there

Interesting how you aren't confirming/denying anything.

I didn't notice at first, but Axel was a ninja, hmm.

Also, did somebody not speculate about ninja's earlier in the game? I definitely have no desire to go back and look for it, but I seem to remember a conversation about that.

It was Ogre. There's a little "Search this topic" thingy up top, below where it says "A Musical Mafia! (Day 4)", to the right of the "Reply" button.

Spoiler: these 3 posts

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

What would I be lying about, though, if you're a flavor cop?

I was wondering if you were a flavor cop because my flavor is Roxie Hart from Chicago who did in fact kill people, your claim is a little less believable hearing you had no result.

My cop wouldn't give me your role name, just the musical you're in.

Ultimately I decided on you in an attempt to use the role to clear (or damn) you because you'd refused to claim flavour and you were unconfirmable by normal means. I had a few other ideas (ie Tammy, TWL, Piper) but decided this wasn't a role that was going to be used like a normal investigative. Had I gotten a result on you I would have crumbed it but not said anything. However given there was no result and there were two kills I thought that maybe you were an SK with a 1-shot ninja (thinking about that later I'm not sure if that actually works against a role cop) or that scum had some kind of protective effect. I just thought it really, really unlikely that I'd be roleblocked or jailkept given I hadn't crumbed anything and hadn't been playing like a PR.

Umm. It seems clear that he assumed you were an ascetic of some sort. Very strange for an ascetic to fake claim miller though. The conclusion he drew doesn't really fit with the information? Can you explain your thought process, True Ogre, in a way that makes more sense to me at least?

Not in a way that's going to wrap it up in a nice neat package for you, Cerb.

Also, since you asked so nicely, this is roughly where I am:

Mod-Confirmed Town: pistachion
Almost certain Town: Marquis, davesaz (based on result), Malakittens (based on result), podoboq (based on strong read)
Leaning Town: True Ogre, Mirhawk
Undecided: Pied Piper, Friendless Seniors, itlepip, Cereberus
Scummiest: Dramonic, SirCakez, TicTac (now replacement), Dwlee99

Undecided represents FS actually moving up from where I had him early on, itlepip is down from where I had Beeboy. Pied Piper is the one I feel most in need of re-reading, but I haven't found the time or energy to just do it yet. In scummiest, I've said everything I have to say about Draminoc. Pretty sure I've made my position on Cakez clear too. TicTac is also in need of a re-read, but I know there were several things I didn't like. Dwlee is just bugging me.

Thanks and I read the top half of your post as well. You're a fucking enigma to me right now. A scummy one, but I'm really not connecting with your processes so some of that might be my own predispoition to your play. I suppose... Do your thing? It'll make it easier for me to know where the hell you're coming from if you happen to be town.

Also I have role-based reasons to *tend* to think Piper's town. It's not strong, but it's another consideration for me. And if you haven't picked up on what my role is yet, then you're just going to have to wait till I die or until it becomes super-relevant.

First Question to you: Given your claim, what "role-based" reasons are making you think PP is Town? You didn't ever target him, and I don't believe he's claimed anything.

They crumbed flavour and locking that in so early I think would be disadvantageous for scum.

Okay. Well this is going to be fun because I'm late for work again so I imagine there's going to be a nice rush of activity. But it was you I was waiting on to say go ahead itle since I assumed you had some part in the results.

I'm Willy Wonka, flavour cop. (Slightly amused at this role given my alt.)

No result N1 investigating pistach, and no result again N2 investigating Axel.

I thought it extremely unlikely that I'd be interfered with N1 so I assumed pistach was lying.

*sigh* have fun.

Second question: Did you by any chance inquire of the Mod. for any clarification on what would cause "no result". i.e. is this what the mod. would tell you if you were role-blocked (instead of just saying, for example, "you have been role-blocked.")

I didn't enquire as to that specifically because I think it'd be pretty rare that a blocking action of any kind gives the blockee that level of information.
I was thinking of asking whether a Ninja-kill would return a no-result but it's moot since it doesn't apply to pistachion anyway.

Things get a bit muddy if it's applied to my investigate on you and you happened to attempt ninja-kill and that also failed somehow. But I doubt that's what happened.

You can always ask Rob yourself if you think it's relevant. I'm sure he loves it. Each of my submits have been "Dear Diary" entries.

I had overlooked the possibility of a ninja and that could make both players town where I was thinking one had to be scum.
Though I wonder what made it enter your thoughts.

3802
8 tabs in Firefox is working fine for me.

[The Pied Piper]

Because they were incredibly active yesterday, but have vanished today.

I don't think this is particularly unreasonable when yesterday was us pushing the shit out of our strongest scumread and today is very clearly not that. Do you disagree?

[The Pied Piper]

I'm not completely out of a game.

[The Pied Piper]

Three days, Cakez.

[The Pied Piper]

yeah i'm avoiding the game thread so as not to ruin everybody else's enjoyment until I calm down but I've been making ISO maps in my hydra PT and i'm about halfway done with Axel's ISO. Nacho's been pretty busy right now with Chicago meet coming up but he hopes to have time for this soon.

[The Pied Piper]

So it turns out that I can't post the ISO map that I spent a few days making because the maximum size of posts was reduced after the tiger attack

What I can do is look at it piecemeal and talk about how Axel approached different slots.

Skybird

=31 ==904 +1340 =1954 ☾ --2500 -2528 -2530 -2930 -2951 =3166 =3168 -==3240 -3332 -=3335 -v3398 -=3487 +-+-3511 -3540 -3586 ✝

Axel largely ignored Skybird on day 1. His first serious mention of her is on page 37 in 904 where he nullreads her, saying that "Skybird hasn't done much of anything" and that he kind of liked Ami's point about her so he might be leaning scum on Skybird instead of being completely null. That post is interesting because every slot except Cerberus' is mentioned.

His townreads are:

Marquis

(for counterclaiming pistachi0n),

itlepip

(for being active but he feels uneasy about the meta argument with

Seniors

),

Tammy

(for enthusiasm).

People he feels okay about:

podoboq

,

Sir Cakes

, Mirhawk (because he doesn't agree with the

Mirhawk

hate)

People he's neutral on:

Mala

(because he liked

Tammy

better in

Tammy

vs

Mala

),

pistachi0n

(miller claim is null and hasn't done much),

Piper

,

Flubber

(strong entrance but meh posting),

Shotty

,

dwlee

(omgus),

Skybird

(hasn't done much of anything),

Spiffeh

(hard to read, posts too many 1-liners)

People he doesn't like:

Dramonic

(less content, worse opinions),

Seniors, Davesaz, Ranger (lurking), Snarky (lurking)

.


So there's this thing where humans are pretty bad at simulating randomness and if you ask someone for a random number between 1 and 10 they're pretty likely to pick 7 and if they don't pick 7 they're also pretty likely to pick 3, and those numbers feel more random than the other numbers because they're not exactly in the middle (5) but they're kind of in the middle of either side, and they're odd numbers and prime.

And when scum produce a readslist, particularly less experienced scum like Axel, they often want to put their buddies "at random" in the readslist, so that it's all smoothed out and their buddies don't stand out. It's why you don't get all the scum on the same wagon as each other all the time but you get them spread apart in 1s and 2s across wagons.

I'd expect 0-1 scum in each of these groups:

[Cerberus] <-- left off the list
[Marquis, itlepip] <-- townreads
[podoboq, Cakes, Mirhawk] <-- townleans
[Mala, Flubber, Shotty, dwlee,

Skybird

] <-- nulls
[dramonic] <-- scumreads

So, Cerb, dram's a bit of a surprise because I've been townleaning him but I'd be surprised if the scumreads were an all town list so I need to think about that some more, and probably someone in the townreads/leans too. If I can't post the ISO maps that I make then I think I'm going to have to try reading the game in order to figure out who in [Marquis, itlepip, podoboq, Cakes, Mirhawk], if anyone. I would be really surprised if Marquis or podoboq were scum, though.

Anyway next he kind of defends Skybird +1340

and that's it for day 1. Other slots he didn't interact with very much on Day 1 were: Cerb, shotty, flubber,

pistachi0n

, podoboq,

Spiffeh

, and

Tammy

. I've noticed that scum like to vary the read they have on their buddies, townreading one and bussing another, but they tend to want to interact with all of their buddies roughly the same amount of

times

and this either goes back to humans being bad at simulating randomness and a subconscious need to even things out, or possibly it could be that players tend to fall into habits and there are players like yosarian who usually ignore their buddies and players like RC who usually bus their buddies and players like mastin who usually don't like to bus their buddies and it's rare to interact a lot with one buddy and not at all with another buddy, so I would expect there to be scum in [cerb, shotty, flubber, podoboq] too, but that's just a list of slots Axel interacted the least with and I might not be setting the cut off at the right place.

Axel spent day 2 bussing skybird starting in --2500. It seems like he saw the writing on the wall for her with Marquis' posting and wanted to position himself to look good after she flipped scum.

I want to point out posts like +-+-3511 where he talks about her like she's scum and town at the same time (green for town, pink for scum):

Cerb, I'm Oscar Jaffee from On the Twentieth Century.

This seems passable as a flavor claim.

But

So IMO that's not a role that can be given to scum without compromising balance to the point of impossibility. The claim strengthens my town read.

So are we going to lynch town, or try to switch it to someone else?

Why do you assume Skybird is telling the truth about it?

Just because of prior town read?

I agree you really can't have a scum "Kingmaker"

,

but I have serious doubts if that's what Skybird really is.

Another notable thing about that post is that he seems to be trying to tie davesaz to Skybird before she flips.

I need to make lunch but I'll spend some time thinking about who else he was positioning himself around and how later!

[The Pied Piper]

Soup is on the stove. So the way I tend to do this is that it's like a venn diagram. One scum's ISO gives me a bunch of slots to look closer at, and another scum's ISO also gives me a (probably different but with some overlap) bunch of slots to look closer at, and then I look at those slots and think about them in relation to the flipped slots and if I can find some slots that look like good bets for scum when approached from several different angles and when looked at in various different lights then yay.

Cerberus v666/millar13

_904

=953 =959 =1749 =2039 ☾ =2535 =2575 -3332 ☾ ==3875 -4297 -4425 ☾

904 sees a new symbol in my ISO maps: _ means "conspicuous absences", the only slot not mentioned in a post that mentions every other slot in the game.

Axel's other interactions with Cerb on day 1 are = interactions which means replying to somebody or chatting with them or disagreeing about mafia theory or just mentioning them, but neither pushing them as scum nor working together with them as town, the null sorts of filler interactions that everybody has with everybody else. These posts aren't significant by themselves and nothing important is said in them; what is significant is the lack of other types of interactions, not until 3332, towards the end of day 2, do we see some other kind of interaction, where he "kinda agrees" with

Seniors

about Cerberus moving down because it "seems like he's sitting back now and following". Axel didn't like Cerberus trying to use dead Ranger's readslist, probably because Axel himself was near the bottom of it.

(I've coloured in the flips and updated the names to make it easier to follow)

Final thing before I go: {

Tammy

, SirCakez, itlepip, Marquis, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, dwlee99}
{

Skybird

,

pistachi0n

, podoboq}
{

Spiffeh, davesaz

}
{Malakittens}
{dramonic,

SnarkySnowman

}
{

Axelrod

, drmyshottyizsik}
{Flubbernugget}
{

Friendless Seniors

, Mirhawk}

There's probably some more scum near the bottom of that list, then. (ranger was town, so her reads were genuine and the "0-1 scum per tier" thing won't apply. that only shows up when someone already knows who the scum are. her reads are more likely to be accurate because scum were discrediting them.)

On day 3, Axel produces another readslist (updated names and coloured in flips):

Mod-Confirmed Town:

pistachion

Almost certain Town: Marquis,

davesaz

(based on result), Malakittens (based on result), podoboq (based on strong read)
Leaning Town: drmyshottyizsik, Mirhawk
Undecided: Pied Piper,

Friendless Seniors

, itlepip, Cerberus
Scummiest: Dramonic, SirCakez, Flubbernugget, Dwlee99

I would, again expect about 0-1 scum per tier.

In 4425 he attacks Cerb and

Seniors

in the same post, saying Cerb is willing to lynch anyone who isn't him and that

Seniors

is attacking anyone who votes for them (but that he's not crosschecking that fact).


Skybird had 4 interactions with axel (up to the point where i made that iso map of her which was towards the end of day 2).

Axelrod

+24 -?465 -636 ☾ -=2567

She also had 4 interactions with Cerb.

Cerberus v666/millar13

+975 +=1752 +1753 ☾ =2649

Other living slots she didn't interact much with were dram, dwlee, us, mala, flubber, mirhawk, podoboq, shotty.
ranger's scumreads: mirhawk, flubber, shotty, dram

crossover: shotty (3), flubber (3), cerb (2), podoboq (2), mirhawk (2), dramonic (2).


This would make Cerb a priority for ISO mapping but if I can't post the maps that I make then that's kind of demotivating because it's a lot of work but i'm a bit lost without it. So instead Cerb just goes onto the list of people to pay closer attention to when I reread the game.

My soup is ready in 4 minutes but I'm not done thinking about who Axel interacted with and how. I might not be able to come back to this today but I should have some time tomorrow morning.

[The Pied Piper]

I'd probably post it in something like pastebin.com, but I need to ask if it's allowed or not; many mods don't allow outside links to game related content. I can copy paste the code into the reply box and hit preview and see it and from there I can follow the links in a new tab, and it can even be saved as a draft and all that, it just can't be posted without getting a mysql error. I ran into the same error when trying to post the final mod scenes for a game I just finished modding; it was irritating.

I could also take a screenshot of the preview screen but it is better if the links are clickable, to be able to look for patterns on your own and then follow a link or two to see where they go.

@Mod: may I put a bunch of post tags in a site like pastebin.com similar to the one in 3114 and link to it?

[The Pied Piper]

Not everyone's. Just ours.

[The Pied Piper]

There's the old Piper!
A question - do you think Cerb's interactions with Axel make him more likely scum?

I think Axel's and Skybird's interactions with Cerb make Cerb more likely to be scum. Rereading Cerb's posts is higher on my todo list as a result.

@dwlee would you prefer me to do all of my thinking out loud in my hydra PT and only post in public when my thoughts are all neatly wrapped up and packaged and tied with a bow?

A town mindset when doing that would be saying "I think there is 0-1 scum in this group, if there is scum in this group I think it is within {person 1, 2, 3} because I'm townreading {person 4, 5, 6}
They did "I think there is 0-1 scum in the group" without analyzing what that means and having that affect their reads.

So,

Cerb

,

dram

's a bit of a surprise because I've been townleaning him but I'd be surprised if the scumreads were an all town list so I need to think about that some more, and probably someone in the townreads/leans too. If I can't post the ISO maps that I make then I think I'm going to have to try reading the game in order to figure out who in [Marquis,

itlepip

, podoboq,

Cakes, Mirhawk

], if anyone. I would be really surprised if Marquis or podoboq were scum, though.

crossover: shotty (3), flubber (3), cerb (2), podoboq (2), mirhawk (2), dramonic (2).

I'm not done thinking

When people accuse you of not reading our posts, this is what they mean.

[The Pied Piper]

If I post a list of people and say that

I think

scum

is more

likely

to be in that list (particularly the areas where there's

crossover

between the different ways i'm approaching the game), that is an

opinion

.

So,

Cerb

,

dram

's

a bit of a surprise because I've been

townleaning

him

but I'd be surprised if the scumreads were an all town list so I need to think about that some more, and probably someone in the townreads/leans too. If I can't post the ISO maps that I make then I think I'm going to have to try reading the game in order to figure out who in [Marquis,

itlepip

, podoboq,

Cakes, Mirhawk

], if anyone.

I would be really surprised if Marquis or podoboq were scum, though.

I know that reading isn't your strongsuit, but...

[The Pied Piper]

Those are five names that I'm looking more closely at because I expect there to be a larger than usual amount of scum in the pool of [cerb, dram, marquis, itlepip, podoboq, cakes, mirhawk] but I took Marquis and podobq out because I think they're town, leaving [cerb, dram, itlepip, cakes, mirhawk], and then i went further and said probably only one scum in [itlepip, cakes, mirhawk], but I have to do more reading because I was townreading that group before this.

[The Pied Piper]

I'd look at shotty a bit more as well because of all those crossovers but talah was pretty town.

[The Pied Piper]

Frabjous news! The maximum post length has been increased again.

Axelrod 5157

Cerberus v666/millar13

_904

=953 =959 =1749 =2039 ☾ =2535 =2575 -3332 ☾ ==3875 -4297 -4425 ☾

dramonic

-720 --904 =970 v1024 --1027 -1031 -1036 -1038 -1068 -1069 -1296 -1299 -1343 --1512 --u1698 =1749 --1954 ☾ -2500 -2575 --2667 -2930 -2933 -2964 -3240 ☾ =3743 --3875 --4822 ☾

drmyshottyizsik/talah/True Ogre

==904 =923

-1299

-1357 ☾ +2500 =2575 =2640 +2928 +2930 =3013 -?3240 =3335 ☾ =3741 =3743 -+3757 ++==3875 =4823 =4824 r r ☾

dwlee99/Sakura Hana

-?=52 -56 -61 -68 -152 -288 ==904 =962 -970 =1749 -1939 ☾ -+2532 --2539 -2547 -2575 -2640 r +-+3154 =3240 +-3332 ☾ -==+3757 --3875 +4400 ☾

Flubbernugget/tictac

+152 =154 ==904 =1954 ☾ -2500 -2526 -2535 =2538 --2543 =2582 -+-2660 -2698 +-2933 +2951 +3165 ☾ =3743 r --3875 -+4400 -4434 +4822 ☾

itlepip/Jim/beeboy

-152 -155 -+288 ++904 +923 =970 -1291 -1294 -1357 -1512 =1954 ☾ r -+2533 r =2660 =2698 =2928 -2933 -2964 =3240 ☾ =3757 ==3875 ☾

Malakittens/THE WRONG LYNCH

v-29 -46 -61 -68 =73 +u152 =288 ==904 -?=1939 ☾ --2539 --2543 +2928 =2930 -2933 -=3013 ☾ -+3757 ++-3875 ☾

Marquis/Amihan

+506 -+-538 ++904 =943 =953 =1299 =1340 ☾ r +-+2528 =2535 ++2660 -2930 +3240 ☾ +3741 ++3757 ++3875 =4013 =?4015 +4487 -4734 =4735 ☾

Mirhawk

+152 +288 ++904

++943

=953 +959 ++1512

-?+?=1697

+1699

=1701 =2341 ☾ =2500 =2528 +2530 +2538 +2539 +2930 +2951 +3165 =3240 ++3409 ☾ =3743 -+3757 ++==3875

++4487

++4734 ++4735 -4744 +4822 +5157 ☾

pistachi0n

v506 u538 ==904 =943 =953 =1299 ☾ -2500

⌾

=2575 =3240 ☾ +3757 ++3875 =4734 ☾

podoboq

++833 ++904

++1300

++1343 ++1954 ☾ ++2536 +2582 +2660 -2928 +2933 =3540 ☾ +-+3757 ++3875 -4772 -4774 =4775 =4808 ☾

SirCakez

+152 =516 ++904 -1027 -1031 =1036 =1296 +1357 -1701 -1749 -1750 +1954 ☾ -2500 -2530 =2535 --2538 --2539 =2543 -2660 -2698 -2928 -2951 -3165 -3401 =3409 ☾ =3741 =3743 =3757 --3875 -4400 -4487 -4734 --4735 --4774 --4775 --4808 --v4822 -4876 u5157 ☾

The Pied Piper

-29 =33 -61 -68 =73 +152 =288 ==904 =943 =1357 =1939 ☾ =2535 =2538 =2640 -2930 ==3013 =3152 +-3163 =3166 +3240 +==3332 +=3409 =3586 ☾ -3741 -3747 +-+3757 ==3875 -4294 --4400 =4434 =4734 ☾

---

Ranger/swordsworth

--904 r +1290 -1358 -1512 -1697 -1699 =1749 +1750 +1838 =1954 ✝

SnarkySnowman

+?=298 --904 -1357 -1359 --1512 --1698 =1749 +1954 ✝

Spiffeh

=727 -==904 =996 ==1512 =1698 =1939 ✝

Tammy

++904 ++996 ++1696 ✝

Skybird

=31 ==904 +1340 =1954 ☾ --2500 -2528 -2530 -2930 -2951 =3166 =3168 -==3240 -3332 -=3335 -v3398 -=3487 +-+-3511 -3540 -3586 ✝

Friendless Seniors

-29 -46 -52 -61 -68 =73 -?+?=152 +?155 -+288 -v298 u506 v538 -+--904 +-923 =970 u1024 -1069 +1294 =1299 -1340 +-1357 --1513 -+-1697 +1699 -1702 v+1838 -1843 -1939 +1944 +1945 --+1954 -+-2038 -?2341 ☾ -2500 -2526 -2528 -2533 --2535 -2536 -2538 --2539 -2575 =2577 =2660 =3240 =3332 =3409 ☾ +3741 =3743 +3744 +3745 ==3875 -4400 -4425 -4487 -4822 --4853 -v5157 ✝

davesaz

-152 -288 --904 --943 +1024 =1068 -1299 =1343 --1512 ☾ +2500 +-==2526 =2535 -2930 =3240 -3511 ☾ =3743 ++-3875 ✝

I will write more words about this in the morning.

[The Pied Piper]

legend

• + working together with somebody, townreading them, defending them, buddying them, helping them, allying with them
  
• - working against somebody, scumreading them, attacking them, pushing them, discrediting them
  
• = neutral interactions, usually quoting somebody without either attacking or defending them, sometimes these are just interactions about setup spec or passing mentions of a slot, sometimes this is responding to a case someone made against you without making it clear whether you’re scumreading them in return or townreading them.
  
• == stating explicitly that a person is a null read
  
• ? I didn’t understand this reaction. this modifies a previous symbol, so +? means “is this an interaction with a townread?” and -? means “is this an interaction with a scumread?” and +?-? means i have no clue what’s going on in that post.
  
• v votes
  
• u unvotes but only if someone says who they’re unvoting because i’m lazy
  
• ☾ marks boundaries between days.
  
• ✝ a gravestone to mark that a slot has died.
  
• R marking the boundaries where a replacement of the slot i'm mapping occurred
  
• r shows where the slot they're interacting with was replaced
  
• ⌾ marks a slot that has been tree-stumped or had their alignment revealed by the mod (IC or similar)
  
• _ conspicuous absences (the only slot left off a readslist, for example)

[The Pied Piper]

Also I agree with Dwlee to a certain degree. I expect more of a position from you on which people you think are most likely to be scum. Which of the players you've singled out do you think are most likely to be scum? Least likely? Why?

I think that this is an unreasonable thing to ask for thanks to the whole "we are working on a reread" thing and the whole "we just posted a bunch of analysis" thing. You pointed out that Plotinus is pointing out a bunch of work on ISO maps and that you'd expect that reading can give you opinions, but the entire point of rereading is starting from a fresh slate and trying to see things that you haven't before. This was a specific type of analysis. Plot pointed out that some of it led in unexpected places and that they wanted to actually read people's ISOs before they saw how they felt about it, which seems completely reasonable to me; why isn't it to you?

Your "oh, they're just trying to see where people are going" accusation is also strange, considering the game state. The same people who have been pushing us for the past couple of days are pushing us today. Everyone else is pushing you. Do you have a huge expectation that someone is going to come out and decide to push someone else? From the main focus group in {Cerb, dram}, I'm more inclined to see dramonic as scum, but I'd appreciate clarity on Cerb. Both players are players I don't particularly expect to be able to read well except in exceptional circumstances (horrid scum play on Dram's part, great town play on Cerb's) and so these are the types of players that I focus on when scum reads are going to shit.

I don't buy the case on Cakez because it's based on an unsubstantiated coasting claim that can't really be backed up except by small stretches of inactivity here and there; it's a horrible and easy case to make, and "oh he's coasting" is why people who have played games that shouldn't get them mislynched suddenly get mislynched because they run into a busy stretch. And yes, I still think that it is very very likely the vig and would rather not make that any more obvious than it already is, although I'm sure you're in the "he's obviously wrong and thus he's scum camp!" since you believe that role speculation has something to do with our alignment.

Itlepip is a player that's also fallen off the map easily but also looked pretty good early game; I understand your frustration with him tunneling you, but I don't really think that it's alignment relevant in the way that you think it is.

[The Pied Piper]

You've thrown a lot of information at us with very little analysis. I don't particularly believe that you're mulling this out as you go. You had a lot of time to do that while you made these maps, surely you have some more concrete opinions by this point.

I think that you don't understand what we are doing here or I think that your scumread on us is strong enough where you don't actually care what we're doing. And I understand the place that you're at because I've been there plenty of times before and I understand there's not really a whole lot I can say that can shake you out of it, but I don't think you care about what we're writing.

The analysis portion provided in the latest series of posts were interactions that stood out to Plot and why they stood out to Plot. An interactions case is not a cornerstone of a full case on someone; it is another way to approach the game and find points to focus on, which is what we're doing now. Scum and town have interactions that suck, but bad interactions shouldn't guide a case on someone unless they are horrendously, horrendously obvious.

[The Pied Piper]

Is Cerb your top scumread? I'm having trouble telling. You talk about him a LOT, but I don't really see anything aside from supposition.

No. Dwlee is my top scumread. The interactions map and things gotten from the interactions map do not represent all of our reads as a whole and the entirety of our thoughts on the game as a whole, which seems to be where the confusion is stemming from.

[The Pied Piper]

I don't think its out of line to demand they actually state what direction they're going with this. Because it looks to me like they're posting a lot of reasons to scumread a whole bunch of people, but aren't apparently pushing any of them themselves. Rather they're waiting to see what everyone's reaction to this is.

Except... We don't know what direction we are going. That's the point. What piece of this reasoning is so unreasonable or irrational to you?

[The Pied Piper]

For your top scum read you just about never mention me lol

I've personally been restraining myself from interacting with you whenever possible because I don't think it's a productive path to follow.

If your argument is that you being a top scumread of ours is now coming out of the blue, then you're completely wrong.

[The Pied Piper]

but the entire point of rereading is starting from a fresh slate and trying to see things that you haven't before.

[The Pied Piper]

An interactions case is not a cornerstone of a full case on someone; it is another way to approach the game and find points to focus on, which is what we're doing now.

[The Pied Piper]

Ar you considering interactions initiated by the other people whose alignments we don't know, or things they said about our confirmed scum flips independent of interactions?

Yes, that's the next step.

I see Nacho posted the legend. I've started using ++ to mean "explicitly calling someone town" and "--" to mean explicitly calling someone scum because it makes it a little easier to spot certain discrepencies.

I think I just realized how terrifying a 1v1 between mastin2 and Plotinus would be

Start here. It was one of my favourite moments in mafia, spending a 3 pages in 3p LYLO with Mastina and figuring out that we were town together and then lynching scum together.

I'd prefer if you didn't since I have no way to police the fact that you didn't edit the pastebin at a later time.

okay, thanks for letting me know. It's no longer needed anyway because the site error has been fixed now.



Axel spends some time tying people to dram. He does it to Cakes in 1031, and I think in 1296 as well, and in 1954 he is tying seniors to both Skybird and dramonic. 2933 looks like the positioning he was doing with Skybird. I think he was expecting dramonic to be vigged at some point and wanted to look good when that happened. He's tying itlepip to dramonic in 2964.

3240 is Axel's giant case on Skybird. 3875 looks important but not about dram i think. and 4822 also looks important but my brain is shutting down again and i can't words anymore. more notes to self on where to pick up.

[The Pied Piper]

And while we're on the topic, what in the blue hell was up with whatever you were doing right before the deadline yesterday?

I was L-1 with less than a day till the deadline when suddenly you start this up.

Piper: "Mirhawks town!"

Piper: "Look at all mirhawks reads, they're terrible. Tons of suspicious bad holes in them everywhere"

Piper: "Mirhawks town!"

Notice how you're alive and my top suspect from yesterday is dead. I wasn't attacking, I was going through your reads because they suck and I wanted to see if I could set you on a better path; reads sucking don't make someone scum.

[The Pied Piper]

I get what you're doing, I just don't see the point if you're not aiming to use it to find scum.

If you don't intend to build cases on it then it feels like a lot of effort for.. what exactly? A vague idea which members of town scum could be hiding in? I mean, I already have one and it only took about half an hour and a spreadsheet.

If the point of this argument to say that we wouldn't put this much effort in for obvious and immediate gain, then I suggest you read Plotinus's games or allow me to shore you Plotinus town posts.

If that is not the point of the argument, then what are you doing here other than being an ass?

[The Pied Piper]

zzzzz

This wasn't a very interesting post.

[The Pied Piper]

I get what you're doing, I just don't see the point if you're not aiming to use it to find scum.

If you don't intend to build cases on it then it feels like a lot of effort for.. what exactly? A vague idea which members of town scum could be hiding in? I mean, I already have one and it only took about half an hour and a spreadsheet.

If the point of this argument to say that we wouldn't put this much effort in for obvious and immediate gain, then I suggest you read Plotinus's games or allow me to shore you Plotinus town posts.

If that is not the point of the argument, then what are you doing here other than being an ass?

And if you'd like me to phrase this in a less combative way, no we are not just trying to look for a vague idea of where the scum are and this is something that I feel is decently obvious since that's not something someone spends a significant amount of time looking for. I find your "I did what you did with 30 minutes and a spreadsheet!" comment to be intentionally insulting. If I have misinterpreted this, could you talk about what directions you've found from it because I haven't seen those directions through your posts today (all of your reads look exactly the same).

[The Pied Piper]

I think Dwlee is acting too incompetent to be scum but enough to maybe look at a policy/vig at some point.

What do mean by too incompetent to be scum?
I can't see Dwlee's reads and progressions coming from town because of how little sense they make; I'm not sure that a townie views the game the way he does because it doesn't make any sort of sense at all.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm kinda bored by the Mirhawk fuckery.
Just mislynch his ass and move on.

You have the power to fight against it, you know.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm kinda bored by the Mirhawk fuckery.
Just mislynch his ass and move on.

You have the power to fight against it, you know.

[The Pied Piper]

Or if you're tired of waiting, you have the power to speed it along. You are more to us than just cranky grandpa dramonic.

[The Pied Piper]

For the record I don't really think that there's a such a thing as starting from a blank slate here. It's almost impossible to prevent your previous opinions from tinting any new reads. This isn't really central to any actual point, I just would like to point our my opinion on that.

It's more productive when looking at objective data to try not to let those previous biases creep in or else there's no reason to look at that objective data in the first place. It's like if I was doing VCA and I called Dwlee scum every time he popped up in a group; if I am that confident about my reads, I don't need any of that in the first place.

[The Pied Piper]

Or if you're tired of waiting, you have the power to speed it along. You are more to us than just cranky grandpa dramonic.

Why is there AtE is so much of what you say?

Did you mean to quote that post?

[The Pied Piper]

I just don't believe it's possible to read a bunch of ISO's without forming any kind of opinion. Period. Assigning the vales you posted in your legend necessitates having an opinion on the post in question. So no I don't think it's unreasonable to expect plot to have made some opinions.

Reading someone's post and seeing that they are scumreading someone else doesn't necessitate an opinion on the scumread.

[The Pied Piper]

Or if you're tired of waiting,

you have the power

to speed it along.

You are more to us

than just cranky grandpa dramonic.

Why is there AtE is so much of what you say?

Did you mean to quote that post?

Yes

Dramonic said that he was just waiting for everyone to mislynch Mirhawk and move on. I pointed out that this wasn't his only option. How was that AtE?

The second quote was a playful jab, I won't sincerely or seriously call someone a "cranky grandpa".

[The Pied Piper]

There's also nothing strange about you seeing where the wind is blowing. As you said there are only two wagons in play, one of them is you and the other is someone who you have recently (repeatedly) called town. You obviously can't get on either of those. I think you're looking for a new top scumread, but you're testing the waters to see what way to go. Also, you're scumreading Dram more then Cerb? Am I reading that right? Why do you spend so much time talking about Cerb and so little taking about Dram?

Why do you think that we are testing the waters to see where we should go as opposed to just posting some interactions?

Plot spent time analyzing interactions. Cerberus had more interesting interactions than Dramonic did. Interesting doesn't equal scummy. "I am thinking about something" doesn't equal "this is definitely scum".

[The Pied Piper]

If my claim that Cakez is costing is so unsubstantiated then why is it so easy to make? Also, you'll note I specifically told everyone to go back and check his ISO in a specific time frame so they could judge his behavior themselves. Have you gone back and checked him? I really want to hear it from you, do you think my claim on this is false? After rereading his recent activity do you think he isn't coasting?

He's been coasting recently. This is not a strong indicator of him being scum.

Saying someone is coasting is easy because it's based on activity (in your case) and nothing more. He has not been coasting in this game as a whole.

[The Pied Piper]

If my claim that Cakez is costing is so unsubstantiated then why is it so easy to make? Also, you'll note I specifically told everyone to go back and check his ISO in a specific time frame so they could judge his behavior themselves. Have you gone back and checked him? I really want to hear it from you, do you think my claim on this is false? After rereading his recent activity do you think he isn't coasting?

He's been coasting recently. This is not a strong indicator of him being scum.

Saying someone is coasting is easy because it's based on activity (in your case) and nothing more. He has not been coasting in this game as a whole.

[The Pied Piper]

If my claim that Cakez is costing is so unsubstantiated then why is it so easy to make? Also, you'll note I specifically told everyone to go back and check his ISO in a specific time frame so they could judge his behavior themselves. Have you gone back and checked him? I really want to hear it from you, do you think my claim on this is false? After rereading his recent activity do you think he isn't coasting?

He's been coasting recently. This is not a strong indicator of him being scum.

Saying someone is coasting is easy because it's based on activity (in your case) and nothing more. He has not been coasting in this game as a whole.

[The Pied Piper]

Lastly, Pips tunneling is whats making me unsure about my read. Not the other way around.

Why do you think that he's scum?

[The Pied Piper]

I didn't say that I needed him or that he mattered. I have been taunting him to action, but I'm not sure that I understand your problem with that.

[The Pied Piper]

I tried, Mirhawk.

[The Pied Piper]

Piper, you have literally nothing to do with me not ending up lynched. You were absolutely egging on my wagon.

I didn't protect you. Friendless Seniors for lynched. Who was involved in Friendless Senior's wagon more than I was?

[The Pied Piper]

Friendless Seniors was lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

Piper, you have literally nothing to do with me not ending up lynched. You were absolutely egging on my wagon.

I didn't protect you. Friendless Seniors was lynched. Who was involved in Friendless Senior's wagon more than I was?

[The Pied Piper]

Mirhawk, this walling back and forth thing isn't work for me, so let's sort this out one point at a time until we actually get somewhere because nothing is happening right now.

[The Pied Piper]

And I won't be up for an incredibly long time, so I would be a happier camper if you started interacting with me about that as opposed to responding to things that I'm not addressing tonight.

[The Pied Piper]

Piper, you have literally nothing to do with me not ending up lynched. You were absolutely egging on my wagon.

I didn't protect you. Friendless Seniors was lynched. Who was involved in Friendless Senior's wagon more than I was?

[The Pied Piper]

At this point, I think an Axel lynch seems impossible. I think Mirhawk is scum, but I'm not entirely convinced, and I don't think his flip will do as much active good to solidify reads as solving the TPP vs FS fight, so I feel like I have to make a stand there.

The only real thing stopping me from a TPP lynch has been other players' perspectives. I scumread the people wagonning on TPP, and townread the people wagonning FS, but just reading their posts, I honestly think TPP is more scummy. So maybe I have to reevaluate my perspectives on dwlee, dramonic,

TO

talah, etc. Basically everybody. But I'm joining the TPP wagon, and crossing my fingers.

VOTE: The Pied Piper

[The Pied Piper]

VOTE: FS

[The Pied Piper]

If I flip town, I'm right about FS because I pushed it so hard. If FS flipped town, there's no way that I could be town because there's no way a townie could be so wrong. Right?

Sure, that's what I'm saying. You are supposedly good enough at this game that I expect you to be right when you're so sure of yourself. So yeah, I'm expecting this not to be town v town for that. Maybe that's misguided of me, but I'm also terrified enough of your hypothetical to FS (where scum you just eliminates the people who would lynch them) that I want to solve this.


I need to head to sleep, and expect to be up before deadline. In case I'm unable to make it back, I'm unwilling to accept a no lynch, and FS lynch is more likely, so I'll park my vote there while I sleep. I'm always willing to accept that I'm wrong, so hey, maybe TPP is cool after all and I'm actually on the right wagon now. FS, if you get lynched while I'm away, at least it's over. Sorry this game was a dick to you. VOTE: FS

[The Pied Piper]

When FS wagon hit 7, you were still at 5. Your wagon died because I took you out of the conversation; the argument that your wagon was dead is an inaccurate one.

[The Pied Piper]

After the first couple unvotes my wagon was effectively dead. Reigniting it would have required backtracking from the people who had just reconsidered, and that was unlikely.

The only person who unvoted from your wagon from that point that I quoted was davesaz, who didn't vote you until he was the seventh vote on your wagon.

[The Pied Piper]

After the first couple unvotes my wagon was effectively dead. Reigniting it would have required backtracking from the people who had just reconsidered, and that was unlikely.

The only person who unvoted from your wagon from that point that I quoted was davesaz, who didn't vote you until he was the seventh vote on your wagon.

And the only person who did so before the point I quoted was talah, who voted then unvoted then voted then unvoted and pretty clearly could have been convinced to go back onto the wagon.

[The Pied Piper]

Again, Mirhawk, don't mean to be rude, but let's go through this point by point so we can settle it as quickly as possible

[The Pied Piper]

What are we actually argueing about?

My position is that you were indirectly pushing my wagon when you shouldn't have been.

Yours is that you were the driving factor in Seniors being lynched.

The reason that you said you found me pushing you indirectly was scummy was because you thought I still wanted to get you lynched and that behavior didn't make sense around someone I was town reading, correct?

My response to that is that I didn't just stand back and let you die and was the reason why Seniors got lynched over you.

These two things are incompatible in my mind, do you disagree or am I misrepresenting part of your argument?

[The Pied Piper]

Show me a person who got off my wagon specifically because you told them to and maybe I'll give that more credit.

First of all: your wagon didn't fall apart because people got off it, your wagon fell apart because the FS wagon rose above it and overwhelmed it. Do you disagree with this statement?

[The Pied Piper]

And am again reiterating the fact that Ogre and Davesaz were the only two to leave your wagon within the last 30 pages before deadline; Ogre unvoted and revoted and unvoted within a short span of time, and davesaz only left your wagon because he said he would join the biggest wagon near deadline and FS had become the biggest wagon near deadline at that point.

[The Pied Piper]

And which of those are you directly responsible for?

The point that I'm making is that those two unvotes from your wagon were not the reason your wagon didn't go through.

[The Pied Piper]

The point that I'm making is that those two unvotes from your wagon were not the reason your wagon didn't go through.

And neither were you so stop trying to take credit for it.

The reason you were not lynched was because FS was lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

The reason FS was lynched was because we pushed the wagon.

[The Pied Piper]

It doesn't make sense for us to take credit for lynching a townie over another townie; again, your side of the argument is that we were trying to get you lynched yesterday. Our side of the argument is no, that's not the case. If your argument is that we were trying to get you lynched the next day, okay, that's different, but it should be immensely clear that our preference was FS and that the FS wagon was the reason your wagon died.

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

And you thought the perfect time to discuss them was to grill me right before the deadline and explain to me why all my reads were shitty and bad?

Gee thanks, with friends like you who needs enemies.

If you thought I was town then that was a bad play that showed pretty much no awareness for what was actually going on in the game. You should probably take it as a compliment that I'm assuming that you did it because your scum instead of assuming you were being dumb.

The reads that I were harshest with you was referring to your dramonic, Dwlee, FS, and our reads on us. My hostility in the dramonic read was because dramonic was pissing me off, while my harshness with the other reads were because they were my top scum reads and because I was pushing back on your read on us. I don't know what other timing you expected me to have; the only other option I had at that point was just ignoring your reads and protecting you until I derailed your wagon, but I don't believe in doing that; if someone is town, I shouldn't have to hold back commentary on their posting so they don't get lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

You said that people were ignoring your reads. I didn't ignore your reads. I didn't agree with them. How did you expect me to approach that situation? Where in my responses to your reads was I out of line of unreasonable? Where in my response to your reads was I pushing your lynch?

And you thought the perfect time to discuss them was to grill me right before the deadline and explain to me why all my reads were shitty and bad?

Gee thanks, with friends like you who needs enemies.

If you thought I was town then that was a bad play that showed pretty much no awareness for what was actually going on in the game. You should probably take it as a compliment that I'm assuming that you did it because your scum instead of assuming you were being dumb.

You also make it sound like I grilled the absolute shit out of you when that's absolutely false; I made, what, four posts towards your reads wall when I spent triple that eviscerating dram for being a dick and twenty times that pushing FS? How is talking to you about your reads near deadline and telling you why I disagreed with them an action that makes me dumb when I PUSHED THE FS WAGON OVER YOU AND GOT FS LYNCHED OVER YOU? If we didn't come in and offer FS as an alternative backed by someone who was very, very persistent in their FS read, what do you think would have happened? Do you think that an FS wagon would have just popped up? Do you think that your wagon just wouldn't have gotten enough votes? Or do you think that people would have compromised on your wagon to avoid a no lynch since there weren't any strong alternative candidates anyways?

[The Pied Piper]

Number of posts is not the meat of my point.

[The Pied Piper]

You are claiming that I was trying to kill you yesterday. You are claiming that the way that I poked at your reads was completely unacceptable unless I was scum or stupid. I am pointing out that I did not "grill the shit out of you" and that I spent considerably more effort pushing through FS's lynch. You are claiming that your wagon fell apart because it couldn't get the votes while I am pointing out that the only reason it couldn't get the votes was because there was an alternative that was only there in part largely in part because of my effort, so your picture of us trying to indirectly nudge your wagon so that it would go through or your picture of us is wrong and your picture of your wagon not going through due to other people that were not us is additionally wrong.

[The Pied Piper]

I don't think "I PUSHED THE FS WAGON OVER YOU AND GOT FS LYNCHED OVER YOU?" is the same as screaming for a 1v1 you know you'll win.
But I mean, ymmv

Do you agree with Mirhawk's perspective that we were trying to nudge along his lynch when we attacked his reads?

[The Pied Piper]

Here are the posts I'm referring to, by the way:

Spoiler: responding to mirhawk vs us

To be honest, my flavor actually would imply that I'm a cop. But sadly I am not.

It seems pretty strange to me that scum!Mirhawk would be setting up the whole "my flavor doesn't align with my role" thing early and by that he meant "not a cop".

The Pied Piper - Lied to everyone regarding the reason they couldn't disclose information, then later pretended in sequence that it wasn't suspicious/didn't happen/and that talking about it was rolefishing. I am in fact astounded and confused that pretty much NOBODY in town appears to give a shit about this as it's pretty cut and dried scummy behavior. It can't just be the scum as there can't be more then three or four of them in total, most of the town apparently decided that they wouldn't even acknowledge that this is even happening for ~reasons~. Obviously my read on them is scum, as I can't think of a reason for town to behave the way they did.

The reason why we didn't want to disclose why we were crumbing an innocent on tictac to Cakez is because explaining it outed both of them. The reason why people are complaining about us lying in the first place is because we said a "bunch of" PRs instead of "a couple PRs"; the motivation for doing so as scum is non-existent; the idea that people came up with is that we were crumbing to out PRs to make it less likely that people would want to lynch us or some dumb crap like that even though the difference in gain between saying a bunch of and a couple for scum is pretty much zero, which means either A) we're liars, B) our perception of "a bunch of" is different than yours, or C) we have another PR we are trying to avoid to out. The only thing that this magical exchange has proven to me is that certain people in the town either want everything or nothing; there's no use trying to explain this situation to everyone's satisfaction because no one actually gives a shit what I'm typing, and the only small benefit that could come out of our slot explaining further is being driven a little less crazy but that obviously isn't happening so there's no use in trying.

You say that our play is pretty "cut in dry" scum, and yet you've gone through no effort in explaining it. Can you explain why scum in our position would crumb the innocent on tictac Day 2 and then refuse to explain it? Can you explain why the motivation we would give for explaining it as scum was "out a bunch of PRs" when we could have pretty reasonably said that it would out two PRs as opposed to a bunch? You were pretending like we were a universal scumread with our backs against the wall throwing everything and the kitchen sink at everyone to avoid a lynch but WE WERE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY SCUMREAD. WE WERE NOT GETTING LYNCHED TODAY. The only reason there is even lynch pressure on us period is because of the claim situation that we got ourselves into if scum and had no motivation to get ourselves into if scum. People are lashing out and calling us "obvious scum" because of a situation that they don't understand and won't understand until everything's on the table, which isn't happening period.

Spoiler: attacking Mirhawk's townread on Seniors

Kinda split on Seniors. Their "I don't give a shit" attitude day one made me think they were town. I've kept to this all game as I feel that most of cases made on them for the whole game were pretty bad or pointless meta bullshit (or both). Their attitude over that last couple days has been pretty sketchy though. Them suddenly scumreading/voting me is pretty opportunistic/survivalist, which looks shitty but isn't necessarily something town wouldn't do. Their reads from their reread are terrible and fake as hell though. Knowing the flips we have now does add new information on a reread, but I barely interacted with any of the dead players until after page thirty. If anything I would think I should look more town because I started questioning Skybird immediately after she started playing. Also saying that Piper is scum if I flip town seems super convenient for tomorrow. I don't know, their town game has been fucking terrible, but they still don't strike me terribly as scum. I'd probably call them null.

We must be remembering a pretty different Day 1 then because last time I checked, it was pretty difficult to classify Friendless Seniors as the "I don't give a shit" type from Day 1. What I do remember is hiplop refusing to do anything until beeboy left him alone, then I remember crappy attacks on Ranger, Amihan (for "faking too much" - remember when everyone thought Amihan's miller counterclaim looked pretty solidly town and hiplop went "nah guys she's faking too much"), shifting off Ranger to push an alternative tictac wagon even though they were very very confident on Ranger, and then nonsense nonsense nonsense. They are voting you because "they could be wrong" - this isn't why town people vote other people, this is how scum compromise on wagons they know will flip town so they can continue pretending that there's something behind the shit scumreads that they've been pushing and pushing and pushing - and for what reason? Why are Friendless Seniors pushing us again? Oh yeah, "pointless meta bullshit" - calls clumsy wagoning a scumtell from Plot based on Butterfly Mafia where Plot was uncharacteristically disengaged and frustrated and angry, calls us scum for SOFTING A GUILTY ON HIM TO GAIN SUPPORT which is a line of shit repulsive enough where even Dwlee, who has done nothing this game but single-mindedly push us, said "no, that doesn't make any sense", and has pushed us for the claim bullshit that everyone else has pushed.

Spoiler: defending Cakes from Mirhawk's scumread on him

SirCakez - I don't like players spending too much time talking about Meta, as I view that mostly as filler bullshit that people spam when they don't have real cases. I would like to point out though that my experience with Cakez makes me aware that he doesn't have to spend most of day one with his thumb up his butt doing nothing, especially not pushing the scumread he spent the whole friggin day voting for. Have any of you paid attention to his posts today, he's spent most of the day coasting/saying Mirhawks scum/complaining about other players. He doesn't even seem to care that I'm about to be lynched, he probably couldn't act more apathetic then he is. 10/10 scum, I'm disappointed in everyone who doesn't see this.

Your dislike of meta is your dislike of his playstyle; this has absolutely nothing to do with his alignment and is a dislike that is not game-related. He didn't spend "most of Day 1 with his thumb up his butt doing nothing"; at the time, I thought a lot of it didn't really make sense, but saying that he wasn't doing anything at all is pretty much completely wrong if you make the effort to read his posts. If you'd like to disagree with this, go right ahead and I'll start happily dumping quotes as long as you need me to. Today, he's been reiterating his townreads on us/FS and scumreads on you/Axel. This is not really different from what every single player this game day has been doing; it's been a lazy as fuck game day where the only thing that seems to happen is people keep reiterating shit they already said, so Cakez isn't exactly some shiny amazing scumread that everyone are idiots for missing for doing something that everyone else has been doing all day.

Spoiler: disagreeing with mirhawk that dramonic's posts are good

dramonic - Doesn't say a lot, but is consistent in his reads. Engaged much more in day three and whenever he does make substantial posts they seem pretty good. Other then the fact that I wish he offered his opinions more freely instead of waiting for people to press him on them I find him fairly townish.

Consistent, yes. Good? No. I'm also struggling to see where you're seeing substantial posts in his ISO; could you be hallucinating them? For fun, let's just take a glance at a substantial dramonic post:

*furious dryhumping*

In reference to Marquis voting a scumread. This is no different than what he's been doing every time someone votes one of dramonic's very consistent scumreads.

He's scum is what's up

"My scumread is scum". No different than anytime he mentions one of his scumreads, isn't that just remarkable???

I'm pretty sure I called out all three of your asses before you adressed me.

"My scumreads aren't OMGUS because I called you out first!" - Probably not false, definitely not substantial or "pretty good".

That is one shitty excuse to vote me mate. You're "not comfortable" voting someone else without review? That is such wishy-washy bull

"You're not comfortable voting anyone else but me? You must be scum!" - dramonic. Substantial? Good? No.

I'm not going to waver unless you provide a reason for me to, but every post you make just confirms my read further so...

"You are scum!"

Okay, I want everyone to take a moment to read that quote and tell me what sort of town tries to convince someone of a read by saying "But he attacked you, therefore he must be scum!"
So I guess the answer to the rest of that post would be that yeah, you're just a bad player

This is the best and most substantial thing dramonic has posted the entire game, but is unfortunately horrendously wrong and shows that he either doesn't know how newer players tend to approach the game or doesn't care.

TPP come on

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

And after I dryhumped you for a good fifteen minutes. SHAME man.

"You disagreed with my scumread! You suck!"

Spoiler: attacking mirhawk's townread on dwlee because there is precious little to like about dwlee's posting

Dwlee99 - I like Dwlee's posting. Despite the fact that he's been going hard on Piper for the whole game, he still seem connected with the goings-ons of the rest of the town. I wish he would branch out a little to look for Pipers partners, but aside from that I think he's pretty town.

"Connected with the goings-on of the rest of the town". What game are you reading and can I replace into that one and out of this one? What has Dwlee done other than tunnel us this entire game? How has he shown awareness with what's going on with the rest of the town when he barely shows awareness with what's going on with us?

Spoiler: picking apart Mirhawk's scumread on itlepip

itlepip - Pip, oh pip. I tried for a long time to preserve my Beeboy read, but it's pretty much gone now. I'm going to start by saying that I really hope you are scum pip, Because if this is your towngame then I don't really know what to say. Pip entered the game with three scumreads (I think the first two were Axel and Podo, but I can't really remember) the last was me. I was by far the weakest read, with his opinion on me not even being scum but rather "mirhawk made some posts I don't really like" or something like that. He voted and engaged both of his other "actual scumreads but got solidly shut down on both of them almost immediately after voting for them. Then seeing as how I was the only one he had left he immediately switched me to "OMG mirhawk is so super scum" for no apparent reason. He's been hardpushing me ever since without really doing much of anything to justify this position. He asked me a couple pages ago why I thought Piper where Piper lied (which is surprising as that makes him the only one of you mooks other then Ogre to show even the slightest interest in talking to me about it), but then in a bizarre twist completely ignored my response to him where I told him where the relevant posts were. He keeps saying things like I'm confirmed as scum, or if I flip town the game is bastard, but is providing absolutely so indication as to where this ironclad certainty on his read came from. Honestly I'm labeling him as scum, because I can't imagine he's this bad at being town.

Pip's first significant read was a scumread on tictac.
His first read's list had Axel as maybe town but maybe scum based on a specific tell, FS could be scum for ass backwards reads and was frustrating in general, didn't like you for your Ranger push, didn't like Podo for the 834 readslist, Sakura was ?, Tictac scum but improving, Skybird null. He had a theory that you and tictac were strongly connected. Attacked Podo in order to sheep dram (strong townread), read evolved to scumreading him for pushing a policy lynch. Started to read Podo as town (I think?), swapped to Axel. Switched to Skybird. Reread Skybird, thought she might be town, swapped to you. Reiterated case on Axel, continued pushing you.

Your characterization of Itle having you as "by far" his weakest read is either not reading or not understanding how fluid his scumreads were early game: he didn't have you as "the only one left" of the scumreads he could push; the only one that he got major pushback for was his Podo read. I don't even see where the Piper thing happened but I'd love for you to point it out to me.

Spoiler: saying that his reads are weak, lazy, and insubstantial but that he's town anyway

The rest of your reads are weak, lazy, or/and insubstantial. I do think that bringing up the miller situation that it took you approximately 100 pages to get out of was something that you were far more likely to do as town than as scum, and I think that your reads don't really line up how I'd expect them to if you were scum; don't expect FS to fall as flat null if they're a partner or if they're town, you hedge on people you can safely call town as scum and you attack people who aren't getting lynched and who have a louder voice and more cred than you do.

[The Pied Piper]

I'm quickly realizing my drive to play this game has been weakening the more and more this Mirhawk-TPP-no-I-am-the-top-poster thing continues and judging from recent activity patterns I'm sure it's not just me. This also feels petty to say but I feel like Nacho and Plot should both recognize how much his hydra is contributing to gamewide apathy.

At this point I'm still all for lynching Mirhawk and moving on, but while I don't think I'll actively vote TPP myself I wouldn't be too upset to see them gone.

The game is apathetic because no one gives a shit about it.

[The Pied Piper]

But you're right, I am drowning out the game. I personally wouldn't drown out the game as much as it was if it felt like someone was actually making an effort to do or look into anything, which it doesn't feel like at this point. The only person who has actually legitimately been putting work into the game recently has been Mirhawk, but people are too lazy to read his posts and want to lynch him anyways.

[The Pied Piper]

Like jeez the fact Mirhawk has sat at 4 or so votes for so long without ever being pushed through is a big scum tell.

No, it's a tell that none of the people who want his wagon to go through give a shit about pushing it through.

[The Pied Piper]

Let's start with Mirhawk.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65428
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Here are his two most recent scumgames. Does this game look at all like those two?

[The Pied Piper]

I don't see a world where TPP and Mir are both town.

Why not?

[The Pied Piper]

Nah, I just don't see the will in town to change to a different target. Realistically speaking the other options are Axel, Piper, Seniors, and Cakez.

The Axel wagon is too new and simply doesn't have enough people who think he's scum, not to mention there's not really enough time for those that think he is scum to convince anyone else.

Piper had its heyday already. There's a few people who support it, but if there was any real amount of will for this wagon I would have found it days ago.

Seniors has been flirting with death all game, and I don't really see a whole bunch of people jumping back on them now.

There's actually at best only like four people who support a Cakez wagon, believe me I tried.

I'm going to flip town, but like you said I'm a VT so its not a huge loss.

This is Mirhawk's posting when it looked like he was going to be lynched.

[The Pied Piper]

I've found scum and I've spent days throat stuffing. The problem is that nobody cares about the people I think are scum.

I don't think Axel is scum, and Hiplop's recent posts have been town as fuck so I'm not going there.

I've been arguing against shitty bullshit garbage cases on me all goddamn game. Apparently town is okay with lynching me despite there being NO FUCKING CASE ON ME AT ALL SO FUCK ALL THE TOWN WHO HAVEN'T BOTHERED EVEN ASKING ANYONE WHY THEY'RE VOTING ME.

What are you honestly expecting me to say here Ogre.

[The Pied Piper]

I moderately resent the fact that you're trying to guilt me into giving a shit. I voted Piper for days, I only unvoted because there's no way a wagon's going through anymore.

The ONLY people even talking about Piper are me and you, everyone else is pretending we're not even talking about it.

When presented with a choice of lying to town for no fucking reason and not lying for no reason, town are going to not lie pretty much every time. Unless they're terrible at this game, which everyone knows Piper isn't. It was nice of you to argue with me over this to keep it alive, but newsflash... Nobody cares.

Unvote
Vote: Piper

It turns out you can actually guilt me into trying.

[The Pied Piper]

Can we just throw 5 votes on like, someone who's being useless and not playing and prompt some people to actually play fucking mafia instead of just sitting around?

Vote: Cerberus v666

[The Pied Piper]

Because Mir is really scummy and you're starting to get really scummy and your interactions today don't feel like townies interacting
Its hard to explain
P-edit: Flubber?

It's hard to explain because it's bullshit. Why is Mir really scummy from his recent behavior?