Newbie 2043: Cherfnul - Game Over

[ben dover123]

I thought we agreed that Ben's case was mostly biased. I find clidd claiming PR so early to be townie.

Uh. How so? Also, what has my case got to do with this...

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

uh...

I need a break. This whole thing is blowing my mind apart.

[ben dover123]

We're about to destroy ourself by voting me, and I don't really care about myself, but we're going to make everyone lose because of my elimination.

This isn't the town mindset...

[ben dover123]

I really wanna get clidd just so that it's like, a fresh start with seven villagers tomorrow and there's no ambiguity about setup or roles, it'll be way easier that way.

I'm not following the clidd elimination if this is what you have in mind. I want to have a good chance for town to win, not this.

[ben dover123]

If anyone still wants to follow a Lavar cfd, join me. I've looked at this again and probably we just leave clidd alive and take someone from {Lavar, BM, Chumbo, maybe maybe lone}

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: Plus, I don't know why Lavar is sidelining this town implosion with this worthless 1 liners. It do be scummy af.

[ben dover123]

ben just completely screwing this up now

Like, as much as I know you want a clidd elim, I think this is starting to drift more towards a PL, not a good elim at this point. Maybe I'm just mentally broken but look at this:

Spoiler: Lavar's last couple of posts

lol

I may sound like a pedant, but it wouldn't actually be a Cop9er setup. Cop9 has a free green check while this setup would not.

bruh

Lavar, can you say more than these 1 word posts.

Yes

I'm pretty sure clidd is telling the truth, but it will become clear if he isn't.

If yes, they will have to choose between me and trendall to roleblock and kill the other.

I believe both of you are practically useless now in terms of night utility.

I still think clidd is town. I won't be voting him.

I thought we agreed that Ben's case was mostly biased. I find clidd claiming PR so early to be townie.

Does this look like sidelining or am what.

[ben dover123]

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

[ben dover123]

No, you could use the fact ''hey, i was townreading clidd'' by D2 once I flip to make yourself look good

Conf bias

No, clidd is right here.

[ben dover123]

I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners

He can do what he likes

guh...

He could at least give us an idea of who he thinks is scum

Right now his vote is still on Rock and I'm not sure that is his SR anymore.

[ben dover123]

you are not helping. the only one that is saving the game right now is ben, and you should listen to him

Arghhhhh...this game

Yes, but I also could genuinely think clidd is town, and, as a result, not be willing to vote him. You both are starting with the assumption that I am scum, and proceeding to use my actions to paint me as such.

but no one would know. all of this clidd argument is slowly descending into mushy BS so in D2 anyone could basically get away with anything. not that the argument as a whole is bs, just that all this talk is becoming so bs and it's hurting everyone's brains

[ben dover123]

I'm torn

like plain torn up

I have no idea what lavar thinks of this whole situation and if Rock is still his major SR

clidd is actively abusing his pocket, but I feel like we leave clidd one more day because I have no clue what Lavar is doing just watching town implode from a distance.

Pedit: well, that's a plain :thonk: moment

[ben dover123]

Oh god this vc is horrific.

Votecount 1.9

[2] clidd (Battle Mage, Trendall)
[2] LavarManos (ben dover123, clidd)
[2] Rockhopper (Chumbo, LavarManos)
[1] Battle Mage (LoneMarkhor)
[1] ben dover123 (Lunar Martian)
[1] Chumbo (Rockhopper)

With 9 alive, it is 5 to eliminate.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-12-12 08:30:00)

[ben dover123]

but, I think that BM thinking that I'm scum is + town for him

Why?

[ben dover123]

I am town because your reasons to scumread me are not good.
I think some of the newbies could be scum. Leaning towards Lunar Martian, Rockhopper, and I'm forgetting the others.

This vagueness is bad. You don't have any obvious SR's currently?

[ben dover123]

doesn't make sense for scum!bm to push me that early

he knows I know how to read scum!him, and even if he eliminated me, I would make a case on him (so you guys would prob eliminate him d2, which is bad for him)

Huh.

I'd give or take {Lavar, Chumbo} currently. Rock's AtE is just such a stretch and Lavar is indecisive still and is bystanding this massive implosion. It's probably wrong since there are multiple factors but it's my guess rn. Maybe swap Chumbo for BM, you could enter the mix soon, we'll see.

Yeah, that all makes sense.

tbh just stay on this lavar wagon. Definitely the scummiest out of those 4 currently imo

[ben dover123]

I'm inclined to TL rock, I'm sure he wouldn't go as far as "just kill me" and stuff like that, his earlier attacks may have been just a joke from town Rock.

I'm also getting that feeling of Lone being newbie town, that's probably just how it is.

That leaves {Lavar, Chumbo} as solve, although add BM in here and there, and maybe you will enter the mix D2 depending on how it is.

[ben dover123]

Hm. I'm not quite sure if I want to defend your wagon hard, I'm really getting abused with your pocket. But, I think I'll make sure it doesn't go through for the time being, we need to talk some more with you.

[ben dover123]

clidd & battle mage is my final guess, you guys can take it from here but feel free to ask me anything.

Why BM?

[ben dover123]

I'm back

That was quick!

Trendall has his solve in.

[ben dover123]

Tbh, it's kind of annoying the fact that i'm trying to help the solve and trendall is just deathtunneling

Mm, he wasn't deathtunneling before but his view of you started becoming more PL like and now it's a deathtunnel.

[ben dover123]

just share what you want to share with each other and we're ready to end the day

nononononono

we need you at least

otherwise its going to be newbies+BM

do you know how bad that is

[ben dover123]

No, you don't need me.

You have one more ml to use tomorrow and I already said my reads.

Ugh. D2 is going to be wrong on so many levels if you aren't alive. Just stay with the lavar wagon.

[ben dover123]

Just give some times to others then, so they can think.

I don't want to elim you now, but if you have lost all motivation for this game then replace out.

[ben dover123]

No, I'm ok by playing.

I'm just saying, if we don't consolidate on a wagon, it would be 'ok' if we eliminate me.

Oh, I thought you lost motivation in the game so you wanted to end the day rn with your hammer.

The vc shows an ugly formation of wagons, if nothing goes through then your wagon will be the only one that really works. The thing is, this Lavar wagon needs 3 more people so I doubt its going through...

[ben dover123]

And it's agains the rules asking for a player to replace out, keep it in mind.

Whoops, didn't mean it to be that way.

[ben dover123]

Btw, everyone is afk, we just need to wait for them.

I don't think BM will ever change his mind about me if he's back, so I'm looking forward to everyone outside of Trendall and BM to agree with this wagon.

We can rationalize, without jokes or ironies on my part this time.

Yeah.

Let see. Beyond Trendall and BM and Lavar, there is Lunar, Chumbo, and Lone

That's just enough to push this wagon. But I dunno about Lunar here.

[ben dover123]

I can't say much, because I'm at work right now, but I think it might be safer to eliminate someone besides clidd. On the off chance we flip a roleblocker, it proves clidds claim

Yeah. We can prove clidd to be a confirmed town, which will definitely help us D2. I'd like to hear your thoughts about Lavar when you come back from work.

[ben dover123]

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

I know that, but it's not like just giving your reads and your strongest SR isn't that hard. He could at least do that instead of being Mr. Obvious on the sidelines.

[ben dover123]

Hello, I'm back.

6. Rockhopper mars
7. Lunar Martian NotAJumbleOfNumbers
8. LavarManos Pragdoid

Within this trio, I believe that Mars and Jumble were the closest players to a potentially scummy conduct, while Pragdoid demonstrated in a more illustrative way what he was thinking, especially in post 182, where I felt that he interestingly contextualized the suspicion about my slot (and also classified me as '' disingenuous '', something very similar to the line of observation that Trendall demonstrated when he started to express his concerns about me). So I feel like he's really more likely town than the other two, which is why I don't think we should eliminate Lava today.

I had a soft townlean on Pragdoid, but Lavar's recent actions are scummy. This slot is more a case of "macro vs micro" reading, I'll look back at Lavar to recollect my thoughts. I believe Rock to be town for his defeatedness, if this was his first game as scum there is no way he gives up D1. Jumble's slot is a mess, he didn't really do much and then he was replaced with Lunar who seems geniunely interested to solve but I need to formulate a macro read on him.

Will comment on Trendall's post in a sec.

[ben dover123]

Why BM?

If clidd isn't mafia then this game makes no sense and I have absolutely no idea. So working on the assumption that clidd is mafia -

LoneMarkor, Rockhopper, and Lunar Martian are three people I haven't seen anything from that would make me think they're mafia, so let's say that I think they're town. (also, Lunar and Lone were clidd's first two choices for elimination so they're probably town, and then I think he put his partner as a third 'if I can't get those two', but like that's complete wifom or something so ignore it)

ben dover123 and Lavarmanos to me are two players who are like, an outside possibility of being mafia.

Leaving me with Chumbo and Battle Mage. I forget what my argument was against Chumbo and I'm sure it was great, but I think what's more likely is that the plan was that clidd would carry the first half of the game with the doc thing and then Battle Mage could take over later on in the game when he's more available. In that case it would make sense for Battle Mage to be voting clidd early on to cover for himself later.

Pretty aware rn that this could just be one of those games where I'm spectacularly wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it.

I fell in this pit not once, but multiple times. Trendall, you are getting a little too heated over clidd. Don't say "If clidd isn't mafia then this game makes no sense" and crap like that. That's a obvious sign that you are deathtunneled into the fact that clidd must be scum. Tone that bias down a bit please.

"also, Lunar and Lone were clidd's first two choices for elimination so they're probably town" What? This logic does not make the slightest bit of sense to me. I agree that Lone is just a newbie town and Lunar is probably a overall towny person, but clidd SR'ing them does not make them town. This shows how far you have gone in the bias pit.

I can get your arguments for Chumbo back up in a second. I honestly forgot why everyone jumped on Chumbo all of a sudden, it made no sense to me back then.

Tbh can you look at BM from a non malicious clidd perspective for a second? BM has made a early vote on clidd, and it may be subject to change once he sees clidd's recent posts. I can't believe you are so tunneled into the fact that clidd is faking the doc claim and this game is 2 mafia goons, a cop, and 6 vanilla townies. Yes, clidd has been scummy but can you at least see a scenario where clidd is actually doctor. Take a step back please.

I mean, besides the fact that you are extremely tunneled into clidd being scum, these thoughts I can follow.

[ben dover123]

Clidd, I made Jumble's ISO:

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers ISO

1st post is just answers to my RQS.

I don't think "conserve your energy" really applies here? It's only day 1, and there are nights to help you recharge.

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent.

How competent, exactly? Are there any further restrictions on becoming an SE? Are you an SE there too?

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I...what? Why can't we just let off-topic chats be off-topic chats?

Only focusing on me.

Okay, now this is something I have an issue with. You can't just assert everyone can just look like they're a townie easily, without a problem. I'll use myself as an example here: I have trouble at times

just posting in the thread

, let alone looking "obvious town".

Also, I found a few questions for you that aren't really related to what I just said, but they seem fine to tack on:

In 15, you suddenly defend your choice of not voting in RVS unprompted. Why?

In 69, you said you were probably going to "recede your leadership and proactive role", but you're still posting as frequently as before. Why?

Decent questions but tbh it seems like a small nudge rather than a attempt to solve my alignment, like clidd said.

Quick update so I don't fall out of this game entirely: Ben is slightly leaning scum to me, Chumbo seems town, Clidd is basically null right now, Trendall also seems town, everyone else hasn't posted enough to really read on.

This was a controversial readlist at the time. I'm not sure what his reason to SR me was.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I'm not sure why this was received badly? Later on he showed that he could at least give a one-line summary while on VLA, so that just begs the question of why he didn't just say it in his VLA post.

This was pointed out by nearly everybody, and it's kind of a weak push towards Chumbo.

Chumbo is most likely to be mafia here, as they're complaining about ben trying to 'look town' while at the same time complaining about 'this guy isn't posting enough!' and 'this guy hasn't answered my question!' (please nobody interpret this post as an answer to Chumbo's question). Classic mafia stuff - easy, obvious, and irrelevant things to pick up and complain about.

I don't think

not posting enough

is an irrelevant thing, though. In addition, the two sides of "not enough posts" and "trying too hard to look town" aren't necessarily opposites to each other. You can have a lower post count than wanted and still look LAMISTy.

Uh...not really a helpful or relevant post.

Posts 109 and 110 dripped me in the sense that he seemed withdrawn and not very committed to solving Ben's alignment, something I can theorize more in a newbie!Scum scenario.

Withdrawn? Yes. But that's just been a problem I've had in general with mafia. Everything's so hard to understand as someone who doesn't know much about the game and it can be tempting to just hold your thoughts to yourself so you don't look bad. And I think 110 is still a good question to ask.

Why does it feel like Jumble was overusing this defense of "I just can't post my thoughts"? Other than that not much to comment about this post. 110 was a question asking "Why can't I have off-topic chats", which doesn't classify as a good question in my books, but that is just my opinion about 110.

[ben dover123]

It's not 'bias' it's just like...my read, that's what my read is. Regarding me 'getting too heated' which isn't happening, I refer you back to post #590. It's not me, it's just you projecting that onto me.

Maybe bias is an overstatement, but you definitely need to take it down a whole notch. The reasons for elimming clidd at this point match a PL, and as you can see people are starting to not follow along with you because of how awful your attitude is getting over a clidd elim. You getting heated has no relation to post #590, and I am not projecting that onto you, it's just how you feel over a clidd elimination now. The whole clidd elim is getting out of hand, and if you can't see this I advise you take one step back.

[ben dover123]

I finished one too:

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I don't intend to analyze post by post, but I noticed two interesting points in his progression:

1- He asks a lot of questions and does not process the answers, nor does he create reads with the information obtained. It is noted in the formulation of some questions, as in posts 109 and 194. The character of these questions is also doubtful.

2- Observations seem empty, as if they seemed to be giving an opinion, but in reality he was not getting anywhere, as in posts 195, 196 and 197. Post 197, in particular, demonstrates him entering a more self-affirming instance, in the sense that he feels the need to demonstrate that he really has a deficiency in the cognitive process of understanding and that his question had weight, implying that he would have to justify himself to me (and that does not make sense from a point of view town!Jumble, since he wouldn’t know my alignment and therefore wouldn’t feel obliged to offer me a satisfaction).

By extension, there is this scumgame of his that he published in the topic:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Which by the way demonstrates a behavior very similar to here, with inconclusive questions, instances of self-affirmation and a little devaluation of one's own ability (but the latter must be a trait of low self-esteem, not being AI).

Another small observation, which is quite subjective, but useful to mention is the way he illustrated his scumgame and towngame on the first post:

I think I've only finished one scum game so far, and it was this one. I didn't like my play there at all, but by default it's my best. As for town, I'd have to pick Open 793: Trust Fall. Yeah, it's a hydra, but all of my solo games weren't that good, honestly.

He refers to the scumgame as "this one", indicating cognitive distance from the item covered, while the towngame is inserted completely. In this context, I theorize that he unconsciously wanted to be associated with the town game (bigger, flashy text) and distance himself from the scumgame (smaller, unattractive text), and this is one of the concepts of something called "maintenance of appearance", which is one of the tactics that liars use to convey that they are linked to something positive, while trying to demonstrate that they are not associated with negative things. Of course, it is a bit of an overthink, but this is a very specific tell and difficult to identify (and it can also be easily mistaken if he was just too lazy to type both games in the same way) but added to the impressions I got from his ISO, end up having some weight.

Objectively speaking, I believe there is a greater chance that Jumble is more scum than town, so Lunar ends up inheriting that scummy impression.

Nice. These points are good, I see you have made some meta analysis over Jumble as well.

I think we both agree that Jumble is more likely scum than town.

Yeah. With that in mind, I say we should make a ISO on Lunar as well to confirm our suspicions. If Lunar did inherit Jumble's scum slot, it will be visible to some degree.

[ben dover123]

you definitely need to take it down a whole notch.

I didn't do anything heated or unreasonable, but if it's your view that I did (lol), then I have 'taken it down a notch' because I just said like...these are who I think the mafia are and you guys can take it from there. You just can't seem to accept that clidd is the person that I think is mafia, so of course I'm going to want him to be eliminated. clidd is just the obvious elimination target at this point, even he said himself he's been acting like mafia all game, so it's not unreasonable for me to have that read.

I'm not saying that a clidd elim is unreasonable, I'm saying that you obviously need to just cool off a bit over your clidd read and elimination. I can take clidd being mafia, but I believe now that clidd should be left alive for D2 so we have some order. BM + 4 newbies + me + Rock is just a wacky Day 2. "clidd is just the obvious elimination target at this point" is an example that you need to start looking at the side where it is possible that clidd is town.

[ben dover123]

[quote="In post 882, ben dover123"I'm saying that you obviously need to just cool off a bit over your clidd read

Again you're just projecting your own mental state onto me.[/quote]

No, that's actually how I feel about you and your clidd read. My mental state has nothing to do about how I feel about you.

If you are just going to keep on steamrolling through a clidd elimination, then I'll just quit here. I don't want to spend my time arguing over something that doesn't help the game at all, like with me and Rock.

[ben dover123]

Let's just move on. Trendall can still work with Ben, while scumreading me, as long as he stills scumreading outside. See this as a "hunting for Clidd's partner" if you can't trust me.

I'll take a look at Lunar.

Yeah, exactly my point.

I'm going to construct a Lunar ISO too. I think in general Lunar has been towny, but I'm not 100% sure about that read yet.

[ben dover123]

Trendall can still work with Ben

Again if he's going to accuse me of like 'needing to cool down' or something when I can't work out what I have done that would suggest that I am remotely excited about this game other than being slightly embarrassed about claiming when I shouldn't have (which I'd never be too embarrassed about because it's just like...an extremely on brand mistake for me to make, I'm just scatty like that), then it's just disorienting and I can't be bothered lol

No, I'm fine with ending this argument here. I won't nag you over being too crazy for a clidd elimination and stuff like that.

then I'll just quit here.

So again, it's definitely not that you're projecting your own uncooledoffness onto me and actually it's me who needs to cool off here right?

Can we just end this argument already? This is not me projecting my mental state rn. "quitting" is me saying that I'll end this argument, not that I ragequit or something like that.

If you are just going to keep on steamrolling through a clidd elimination

Plus I already said I wasn't going to do this and I was gonna let you guys figure it out so like...what have I even done here?

You are still hard advocating a clidd elim over anything that anyone else says, that's what I meant.

[ben dover123]

You are still hard advocating a clidd elim over anything that anyone else says, that's what I meant.

Because he's my top read for mafia, of course. What do you want me to do, make arguments against the person I think is sixth most likely to be mafia instead?

Sigh...why do you have to keep on bringing this argument up. Just stop. We don't need to argue over this any longer.

Anyways, to answer your question here, you could start looking at other possible scumteams with people not named clidd.

[ben dover123]

But I think clidd is mafia so why would I do that?

I said stop. This is the last time I answer anything related to this argument.

Maybe because you could experiment with other solves, maybe because you are afraid that you are completely wrong here?

Like why would I waste time constructing arguments that I don't believe in myself?

So you are 100% certain that clidd is mafia. Duly noted.

[ben dover123]

No I'm not 100% certain, I can't think of a situation where I ever would be, and there's no way that that can be reasonably inferred from what I've said. I'm just confident enough that this would be my final choice for who to eliminate today. If ppl don't agree they can vote someone else and it's as simple as that. Some guy in an epicmafia graveyard made a comment about me once which I really liked - something along the lines of 'this is classic Trendall, he had the mafia figured out at the start of the day and now is just overthinking his way out of it'. At some point you have to reach a final decision rather than just allowing yourself to confuse yourself through information overload or analysis paralysis. I've reached that point and you're just not understanding it and instead are attributing it to me being like...not thinking about the game rationally or something.

I'm not remotely afraid of being wrong, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, it happens, why would I care?

God, space out your text please.

"instead are attributing it to me being like...not thinking about the game rationally or something" This isn't what I am attributing you with, I'm usually paranoid over my reads and I make backup scumteams just in case something fails along the way.

I believe it is best to consider every scenario in case something goes wrong along the way. Maybe you are that careless type that thinks "If something goes wrong, just forget about it and move on." It would definitely be
understandable, I'm just the type to be relatively paranoid over different cases.

Why am I still arguing over this

[ben dover123]

Here is Lunar's ISO btw clidd.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

quote="In post 605, Lunar Martian"]I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.[/quote]

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his original townread by the tone of this post.

[ben dover123]

The guy lied about doctor self-protecting, claimed doctor bizarrely early, tried to make out as though he was clear when he wasn't, can't stay consistent as to whether he's not in the mood to play or wants to do serious analysis. Tried to post-justify by pretending he was joking or trolling or whatever and now he's gonna take it seriously. He's doing everything he can to pocket ben dover123. His maf reads are on people I think are town. I can make sense of who his partner would be and why. He claimed doctor day one - I've been in two games very recently where the mafia claimed doctor day one so he's just like...carrying out the maf strategy as I'd expect somebody to at this point. After a point it's just like 'yeah I've seen enough it's probably this guy who's mafia' and there's absolutely no point in thinking about it more than that because you'll just overthink urself into oblivion.

God am I getting pocketed. Something feels off when I read this post...

Ugh my brain. I almost forgot about most of these events.

[ben dover123]

I'm usually paranoid over my reads and I make backup scumteams just in case something fails along the way.

I don't need to do this though because I'm getting nightkilled tonight. If I was alive at the start of tomorrow I re-evaluate again based on the flips and choice of night-kill, that's how I play the game.

Mmm, yeah some people do play the game like this. I'm just the kind of guy to make a accurate read first try. It seems that you are the kind of guy to set your stance and then re-analyze for potential mistakes later.

[ben dover123]

God am I getting pocketed

Yeah to the extent that you're going around telling people what to do like 'you, space out your text! you, give me a reads list now!' just because he said a thing about you having leadership skills at the beginning of the game. He got you so hard.

smh

I need a clidd review now because something feels off.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: That bossy attitude is coming from just me though, not pocketed me.

[ben dover123]

tbh What I can say right now is that clidd's doctor claim does fall under scum's general meta, the other evidence I have to reread.

[ben dover123]

God I may have been pocketed hard, looking back at your evidence. Is there any way to absolve my sins?

[ben dover123]

I can't tell you because clidd told me to stop talking

You have the right to talk. clidd has no authority over your own will.

Also he said that we should all just like...forget about him and assume he's town and go off that basis, which is a totally towny thing to say so we should just do that.

:thonk:

[ben dover123]

Where did he say that?

[ben dover123]

I can give you the feeling of hammering your doctor as cop, if you want.

clidd, I would suggest you don't try to get the game on a personal level...

[ben dover123]

clidd, why did you pocket me again?

[ben dover123]

I think it's the other way around, clidd.

[ben dover123]

clidd, why did you pocket me again?

I'd like an answer to this as well.

[ben dover123]

Sophism in action.

I don't think this is sophism...Trendall is making a good point.

My offer stills open, are you going to take it?

No, Trendall already dropped you down the hole.

[ben dover123]

and they need you too.

See he tried making me doubt myself and he tried saying that I am anti-town, but neither of those worked. So now he's switched to 'the town needs you' like he can't be consistent about what his own opinions are which is a thing that mafia do.

He hasn't been consistent all game, I've noticed that at the very least.

Pedit: I hate this defeatism. Like, I

hate

it. This isn't town clidd behavior at all.

[ben dover123]

I just looked up this word 'sophism', and I feel like if something is a sophism then it would never need to be pointed out because it would be easy to just explain the actual reason why the argument is fallacious.

:thonk:

[ben dover123]

Also, I notice that clidd is using a lot of "can we calm down here and listen to me" kind of posts...

This isn't town clidd behavior at all.

Why not?

Lemme pull up my clidd meta research for you again.

[ben dover123]

Wow, you are so smart, Trendall.

I suppose you have already discovered my evil schemes.

We don't have time for you to be sarcastic my dude.

Spoiler: clidd meta research

clidd towngames:

Newbie 2018(Town Win)
Notes: 228 posts out of 1156 total posts, survived for town win.
Newbie 2020 (Town Win)
Notes: 282 posts out of 1758 total posts, replaced in D1 and survived for town win.
Open 791 (Town Win)
Notes: 110 posts out of 3215 total posts, replaced out D1. Heavily fatigued from last few games, was not going to do wallposts and be obvious town.

Town clidd behaviour:

Overall behaviour: Really proactive, likes wallposting when not fatigued, makes himself obvious town, very detailed analysis over all of his takes.

Tone: Likes to ask for opinions and questions, very proactive and helpful with many different takes on his reads.

Frequency: Quite active. Almost never reaches low activity.

Miscellaneous: In Open 791, clidd is noticeably fatigued from his last 2 games, so he does not make himself obvious town and starts acting slightly like his scum meta. He talks a bit about his meta, and I am currently analyzing this game to see what he has to say about his scum meta. However, clidd should not be able to use the fatigued argument here since he has literally come back from a couple month's break, no way in hell is clidd fatigued here and not actively trying to be town.
Also, he notes that he will not be doing very detailed analysis and wallposts, meaning he actually is able to control his switch from being obvious town to neutral/scummy. Interesting...

clidd scumgames

Micro 927 (Scum win)
Notes: 149 posts out of 489 total posts, survived for scum win. Partner: dsjstr
Mafia PT
Mafia Neighboorhood
Micro 939 (Scum win)
Notes: 88 posts out of 1285 total posts, replaced in D1 and replaced out D2. Partner: Flavor Leaf.
Mafia PT
Newbie 2006 (Scum win)
Notes: 37 posts out of 1468 total posts, replaced in D2.
Mafia PT intentionally private.

Scum clidd notes:

Overall behavior: Locks onto one person as his main scumread, intentionally changes his scumread only when there is a flip and interactions are used. Doesn't put nearly as much effort into his posts, and in all of these games he usually does fluffing with one liners or something similar.

Tone: Light, not too involved with solving the whole game and coordinating with his tr's. Doesn't contribute directly.

Frequency: High activity, rarely any low points.

[ben dover123]

I don't see anything about defeatism, and I don't understand why it is scummy in this situation. Both you and Trendall are the loudest voices in the games and also happen to be his biggest opponents. I could see him being exasperated as town here, and I don't think the way he presented his claim is likely to come from scum.

"Being extremely proactive" also including "never accepts defeatism", if you were wondering.

I'm not really an opponent, in fact I'm not sure who I support for rn. I was hard pocketed by clidd and was blinded for multiple pages.

Also:

The guy lied about doctor self-protecting, claimed doctor bizarrely early, tried to make out as though he was clear when he wasn't, can't stay consistent as to whether he's not in the mood to play or wants to do serious analysis. Tried to post-justify by pretending he was joking or trolling or whatever and now he's gonna take it seriously. He's doing everything he can to pocket ben dover123. His maf reads are on people I think are town. I can make sense of who his partner would be and why. He claimed doctor day one - I've been in two games very recently where the mafia claimed doctor day one so he's just like...carrying out the maf strategy as I'd expect somebody to at this point. After a point it's just like 'yeah I've seen enough it's probably this guy who's mafia' and there's absolutely no point in thinking about it more than that because you'll just overthink urself into oblivion.

[ben dover123]

Most notably, I see that clidd is very inconsistent, something that doesn't transfer from his meta. I'm not sure why he keeps on backtracking on his own arguments, it's not like this is him not having played mafia for a while, backtracking over your own arguments is pretty "whut" kind of thing.

[ben dover123]

clidd, why did you pocket me again?

[ben dover123]

Maybe I'm enjoying playing the villain role.

That's all you are going to say?

Stop trying to nag us inside our heads.

[ben dover123]

I mean, all this discussion has interrupted my line of reasoning.

I don't even remember where I was in the Jumble replacement assessment.

Can I have a actual direct answer to why you pocketed me or are you is post 969 your reason.

[ben dover123]

I'm still reluctant to eliminate clidd because he could turn out to be a confirmed town...
I should look at some other possible eliminations.

Because you need to be pocket so we can work together to solve.

Trendall is a distraction here.

You sure warped me really hard for a pocket...

Then who is scum in your eyes?

[ben dover123]

Here is Lunar's ISO btw clidd.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

quote="In post 605, Lunar Martian"]I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his original townread by the tone of this post.[/spoiler][/quote]

[ben dover123]

Ah, I screwed it up. Here is a much better formatted version:

Here is Lunar's ISO btw clidd.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his original townread by the tone of this post.

[ben dover123]

sporadic = infrequent btw. I had to search that one up.

[ben dover123]

clidd, this ISO isn't really done well. There are more things to comment on than their choice of vote, you know.

Now the question is, why is this ISO so poor compared to the Jumble ISO?

Pedit: Ok, why Lone. I still don't understand how it's Lone.

[ben dover123]

Oh, what did I miss.

[ben dover123]

Why is Rock scum again? What do you think about his "Just kill me" reaction?

[ben dover123]

so how did he know "mafia goon"? and why specifically mafia goon and not just mafia, or even town?

Because he looked at all the role descriptions before the game because he needed to do so in order to identify how the setup works and therefore how to go about playing, and the phrase 'mafia goon' is in the role descriptions.

Wait, but then he would know that doctor can't self protect?

[ben dover123]

Luna + Rock is my solve.

tbh mafia goon is just a regular role that is basically said in every game multiple times, I think Lone is just plain newbie town.

Lunar I can agree with but Rock? His defeatedness just doesn't add up.

Chumbo maybe, I need to do a ISO on him to see where he has gone.

Otherwise this leaves {Lunar, Chumbo, clidd} for me, with the fact that Pragdoid put a good impression on me, Lone is just plain newbie town, Trendall is basically confirmed town at this point, and BM has + townpoints as clidd pointed out.

[ben dover123]

Wait, but then he would know that doctor can't self protect?

I keep like, writing out a post and pressing 'submit' and then it just vanishes. Need to remind myself to write these on notepad or something and copy and paste them across so I don't lose them

I can envision a scenario in which somebody looks at the roles in enough detail to know the names and have a rough idea of what they do, but not have the final mechanical details committed to memory or whatever. I also forgot the information was available in the role description and referred to the wiki instead. So I don’t think his not knowing that doctor can’t self-protect despite knowing the name ‘mafia goon’ is really an indication of anything, because I did the exact same thing. I didn’t know for definite, I had to look it up, but obviously I know the name ‘mafia goon’.

Well, as I said mafia goon is like one of the most common terms ever in forum mafia, people are bound to hear it once in a while at least.

I feel better about where my vote is.

Yeah, s*** happened today.

[ben dover123]

Hm. Now that I have a PoE set I should do some interaction reading.

[ben dover123]

I think if we need a hang right away, we go for Lunar. Last possible second we could still get a conftown out of clidd and Chumbo is still a townlean for his macro read, but Lunar is the only one that doesn't add up in that group. However, that is like the last minute emergency hang, as long as we have time on our hands I'll keep on reading up on Chumbo and clidd to see if I could possibly get a solve today.

Also, I don't think BM would openly say "clidd is scum, take coming soon" if clidd is his partner, and also I don't think they would want to take the risk of putting the first vote on clidd that would end up getting him in hammer range. I just don't think BM/clidd adds up right. It's like BM is attacking clidd but clidd is trying to get him on his side.

[ben dover123]

I'm pretty confident with a Lunar elimination.

And I'm pretty confident that you aren't all that smart.

clidd (you aren't half as smart as you think you are)

Pfft.

I think if we need a hang right away, we go for Lunar. Last possible second we could still get a conftown out of clidd and Chumbo is still a townlean for his macro read, but Lunar is the only one that doesn't add up in that group. However, that is like the last minute emergency hang, as long as we have time on our hands I'll keep on reading up on Chumbo and clidd to see if I could possibly get a solve today.

Also, I don't think BM would openly say "clidd is scum, take coming soon" if clidd is his partner, and also I don't think they would want to take the risk of putting the first vote on clidd that would end up getting him in hammer range. I just don't think BM/clidd adds up right. It's like BM is attacking clidd but clidd is trying to get him on his side.

This is some pretty bad logic. There's still a third of the day left. Why are you in such a rush? And why are you using the fact that clidd is scum to say BM isn't scum? Because you don't seem to be considering BM as possible scum but I haven't seen you give reasons why BM isn't scum with someone else.

What is bad logic here? I'm telling everyone who my immediate GtH elimination is incase we have another massive wagon shift, and I even stated at the end that it was a "last minute emergency hang"

[ben dover123]

Lunar, you shouldn't be voting BM because they are "too quiet". BM is in a lot of games and made their post already why people shouldn't be voting him for being "quiet" or "inactive". I can bring it up if you want.

Also, I'd like an explanation on why Lone is your next suspect. I'm not getting these "Lone is scum" takes.

Pedit: Sigh...Lone you have a lot to learn. But this is something. I'd like some explanation with this take too.

[ben dover123]

so I'm at like E-2 because apparently I'm not "taking the game seriously" and "going to coast and do nothing" despite being VLA for weekend and then coming back and posting lots of analysis and thoughts last night, with the promise of finishing the 2nd half of my read-through tonight?

either people with unrealistic activity standards or just not reading what I have posted and cruising on an outdated "BM is absent" read.

If I ain't dead, I'll be back tonight.

Although I question BM for the fact that he said "I'll be back tonight" when tonight has already happened. Ah well, maybe "tonight" is relative if BM lives in a different time zone with a different schedule.

[ben dover123]

Wait what happened?

[ben dover123]

Hm. I wanted to publish my macro readlist before D2 but I can do it before the mod comes on.

Why do I feel like Lunar had a major disconnect in his reads?

[ben dover123]

:thonk: Lunar isn't hammered yet, he is still at E-1. Lemme create a unofficial vc

INTENT TO HAMMER

I am declaring intent to hammer Lunar here, I want Lunar to give his last thoughts if he is online.

[ben dover123]

[4] Lunar Martian (clidd, LoneMarkhor, Chumbo, Rockhopper)
[2] clidd (Battle Mage, Trendall)
[2] Rockhopper (LavarManos)
[1] Battle Mage (Lunar Martian)
[1] LavarManos (ben dover123)

With 9 people it takes 5 to eliminate

This votecount is unofficial.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-12-12 08:30:00)[/b][/color][/area][/quote]

VOTE: Lunar Martian

VOTE: BM

UNVOTE: BattleMage
VOTE: LunarMartian

VOTE: Lunar for now
E-2

VOTE: Lunar Martian

THIS IS E-1

Ok, goodbye.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

Doctor's role PM does not have a double voting ability, therefore the last vote does not count.

[ben dover123]

[4 (E-1)] Lunar Martian (clidd, LoneMarkhor, Chumbo, Rockhopper)
[2 (E-3)] clidd (Battle Mage, Trendall)
[1] Rockhopper (LavarManos)
[1] Battle Mage (Lunar Martian)
[1] LavarManos (ben dover123)

With 9 people it takes 5 to eliminate

This votecount is unofficial.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-12-12 08:30:00)

Spoiler: Votes

VOTE: Lunar Martian

VOTE: BM

UNVOTE: BattleMage
VOTE: LunarMartian

VOTE: Lunar for now
E-2

VOTE: Lunar Martian

THIS IS E-1

Ok, goodbye.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

Doctor's role PM does not have a double voting ability, therefore the last vote does not count.

Sorry, I really screwed the other post up.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: General Macro Reads

ben dover123

Trendall

LoneMarkhor

Rockhopper

Chumbo

Battle Mage

clidd

Lunar Martian

These macro reads were formed by posts. clidd may be the uncc'ed doctor, but his posts mostly ping openwolfy, so in the macro readlist clidd is overall scummy.

Trendall: Confirmed town.
LoneMarkhor: Just newbie town, no more no less.
Rockhopper: Was relatively scummy in his posts, but the defeatedness is just not a thing coming from scum Rock.
Chumbo: Was a nice TR before, but he has sunk down to only a TL now. His proactiveness about solving decreased massively but I have to complete his ISO to see.
BM: Is technically a null with so little posts and little reactions, but his slot is just >randtown with all the +towncred he is getting.
clidd: Overall his posts are scummy, backtracking, bizarre explanations, but he is a much more complicated case and he goes beyond macro reads, so I don't think this macro read will be very helpful in determining his alignment.
Lunar Martian: Jumble was scummy, and then now I am getting a sense of disconnected reads from Lunar, switching from one person to another quickly. I completed Lunar's ISO and he is backtracking on my read multiple times, already this is the 3rd time he has gone back and forth between me being scum and me being town. That just feels like generally indecisive scum.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Last couple of posts

Wait Clidd you hadn't voted lunar yet?

VOTE: Lunar Martian

:thonk: I think

Unless you have two votes somehow.

Yeaahhh whoever said Lone is scum needs a straight reality check.

welp.

were you scum Lunar?

This pings town to me, but it might be troll since clidd voted twice.

nah

docs get 2 votes

This is rock trolling Lone

Ok, goodbye.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

This doesn't ping me in the right way but it might just be a troll.

brief check in to say:

what the hell is going on
believe both PR claims
guess i was wrong about clidd - sorry clidd

more tonight, apologies i timed out last night.

There you go Lunar. Although this makes me slightly more sus of BM because he is just like "Ah forget my SR on clidd he is a PR trust him".
We can look at this tomorrow.

so I'm at like E-2 because apparently I'm not "taking the game seriously" and "going to coast and do nothing" despite being VLA for weekend and then coming back and posting lots of analysis and thoughts last night, with the promise of finishing the 2nd half of my read-through tonight?

either people with unrealistic activity standards or just not reading what I have posted and cruising on an outdated "BM is absent" read.

If I ain't dead, I'll be back tonight.

Although I question BM for the fact that he said "I'll be back tonight" when tonight has already happened. Ah well, maybe "tonight" is relative if BM lives in a different time zone with a different schedule.

BM has repeatedly promised to post and not followed through.

also Lunar why do you think i am scum?

I buy clidd's reasoning, and you have done nothing that makes me think you're town.

This is selective reading, like clidd said. Just picking apart the most obvious things when Lunar should be diving through everyone else as well.

also Lunar why do you think i am scum?

I buy clidd's reasoning, and you have done nothing that makes me think you're town.

Sorry I don't know which reasoning you are talking about.His reasoning was against you,wasn't it?

His reasoning regarding you slipping. It seems odd that you don't know how a doctor works but you know your favorite role is mafia goon. The way you are jumping on the largest bandwagon and stating that you think I'm scummy but then also not being able to provide any reasons for why I'm scummy is, ironically, rather scummy.

I hate how Lunar is jumping on the LHF just like this. Not only is this sheeping off of others, you know that mafia goon is visible outside the role PM's right?

Spoiler:

ben dover
LoneMarkhor
Trendall
Battle Mage
LavarManos
Lunar
Chumbo

what does this list mean?

Towniest to scummiest

Why is Chumbo at the bottom of your list?

This makes a massive interaction. Lunar hasn't interacted with Chumbo all game and then all of a sudden he is worried why Chumbo is so far down when Chumbo can be seen as scummy to some people? Huh?

Yeah, these posts are not a good look for Lunar, especially the Chumbo post imo. I'm ready to hammer him when everyone leaks out their last thoughts.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Last couple of posts

Wait Clidd you hadn't voted lunar yet?

VOTE: Lunar Martian

:thonk: I think

Unless you have two votes somehow.

Yeaahhh whoever said Lone is scum needs a straight reality check.

welp.

were you scum Lunar?

This pings town to me, but it might be troll since clidd voted twice.

nah

docs get 2 votes

This is rock trolling Lone

Ok, goodbye.

VOTE: Lunar Martian

This doesn't ping me in the right way but it might just be a troll.

brief check in to say:

what the hell is going on
believe both PR claims
guess i was wrong about clidd - sorry clidd

more tonight, apologies i timed out last night.

There you go Lunar. Although this makes me slightly more sus of BM because he is just like "Ah forget my SR on clidd he is a PR trust him".
We can look at this tomorrow.

so I'm at like E-2 because apparently I'm not "taking the game seriously" and "going to coast and do nothing" despite being VLA for weekend and then coming back and posting lots of analysis and thoughts last night, with the promise of finishing the 2nd half of my read-through tonight?

either people with unrealistic activity standards or just not reading what I have posted and cruising on an outdated "BM is absent" read.

If I ain't dead, I'll be back tonight.

Although I question BM for the fact that he said "I'll be back tonight" when tonight has already happened. Ah well, maybe "tonight" is relative if BM lives in a different time zone with a different schedule.

BM has repeatedly promised to post and not followed through.

also Lunar why do you think i am scum?

I buy clidd's reasoning, and you have done nothing that makes me think you're town.

This is selective reading, like clidd said. Just picking apart the most obvious things when Lunar should be diving through everyone else as well.

also Lunar why do you think i am scum?

I buy clidd's reasoning, and you have done nothing that makes me think you're town.

Sorry I don't know which reasoning you are talking about.His reasoning was against you,wasn't it?

His reasoning regarding you slipping. It seems odd that you don't know how a doctor works but you know your favorite role is mafia goon. The way you are jumping on the largest bandwagon and stating that you think I'm scummy but then also not being able to provide any reasons for why I'm scummy is, ironically, rather scummy.

I hate how Lunar is jumping on the LHF just like this. Not only is this sheeping off of others, you know that mafia goon is visible outside the role PM's right?

Why is Chumbo at the bottom of your list?

This makes a massive interaction. Lunar hasn't interacted with Chumbo all game and then all of a sudden he is worried why Chumbo is so far down when Chumbo can be seen as scummy to some people? Huh?

Yeah, these posts are not a good look for Lunar, especially the Chumbo post imo. I'm ready to hammer him when everyone leaks out their last thoughts.

I have to preview my post before I submit, I'm getting so many badly formatted posts.

[ben dover123]

That "sorry clidd" was weird coming from BM and Rock stills my second pick for mafia.

Yeah, it's awkward. Are those your last thoughts?

[ben dover123]

My mind hasn't changed about Luna, let alone Rock.

My only concern is the scenario in which my analysis was wrong about Lava's predecessor, as he basically became a blank slate in the last pages, but I will trust the analysis I obtained. Also, the fact that he comments at certain times (when he could wait for the storm to pass), makes me think that he was trying to understand the situation (town mentality).

It is very difficult to say with certainty about BM, as he demonstrates things that I consider to be towny from his towngame, but at the same time he is fostering a very large distance from the game (and abusing the VLA and prod system). But ethically speaking, he knows this is pretty toxic if he's scum, so I imagine he wouldn't (so, prob town too).

Lone is very new to the game and, as Trendall pointed out, maybe my theory about his scumlip is not as strong as I imagined. In good faith, I imagine that he would not abuse the newbie veil to obscure reads on him (and the fact that the gamestate indicates that he was never a paupable elimination, indicates that both mafia and town want him alive). Probably town too.

In conclusion, my PoE indicates the relationship: {Luna, Rock, Lead} as containing both scums.

Hm. Assuming you are not scum. Our PoE is still wide but Lunar has been doing some weird stuff yesterday, so my mind hasn't really changed about him either.

That is true, I'd say Chumbo because Rock doesn't put his partner in hammer range with intent.

[ben dover123]

Well, that's why you need to scumhunt if I'm not here on D2.

I mean, I think cop will die, but they can just rb cop and kill me (because I can't protect myself), so cop would stay alive on D2 but without a report.

Yeah, both PR's are useless here, so it's basically 2 v 7 vanilla mafia.

[ben dover123]

So.. That's all. We wait now.

and we wait, and we wait for Lunar to make his final statement.

[ben dover123]

I think you're biased on Rock, but I can see why you think he's town for acting like that in hammer range.

If Lunar flips red I think Rock's townstock gets boosted too.

[ben dover123]

I think you're biased on Rock, but I can see why you think he's town for acting like that in hammer range.

If Lunar flips red I think Rock's townstock gets boosted too.

Hum.

Let's see the flip first.

Can I hammer now? Has everyone put in their last thoughts?

GtH solve: {Lunar, Chumbo}

[ben dover123]

tbh this wagon feels a little wacky. I want to analyze it D2 for sure.

[ben dover123]

The right play would be to wait.

But I, Clidd, would say "hammer".

Yeah, I thought so. I need Lunar to address the hammer, if I am correct.

[ben dover123]

Reason: The game has become full of chaos.Cop voting for doc.I trust Ben and Clidd(more).So I decide to join their wagon.

None of that is reason why you think I'm scum.

Oh, hey, you are E-1 with intent to hammer. You should probably address that...

[ben dover123]

OK let me address it. This is a really dumb wagon. The case on me is pathetic, there's nothing for me to even defend. Ben you say my read on you changed a lot, but when you criticized me for that you even admitted that you had been scummy. There's one scum on my wagon and 4 dumb townies. Lone is almost certainly scum here.

What? When was that? I gotta reread.

Lone is not scum. Have you seen his recent posts?

Pedit: :thonk: what is your reason for BM again?

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: General Macro Reads

ben dover123

Trendall

LoneMarkhor

Rockhopper

Chumbo

Battle Mage

clidd

Lunar Martian

These macro reads were formed by posts. clidd may be the uncc'ed doctor, but his posts mostly ping openwolfy, so in the macro readlist clidd is overall scummy.

Trendall: Confirmed town.
LoneMarkhor: Just newbie town, no more no less.
Rockhopper: Was relatively scummy in his posts, but the defeatedness is just not a thing coming from scum Rock.
Chumbo: Was a nice TR before, but he has sunk down to only a TL now. His proactiveness about solving decreased massively but I have to complete his ISO to see.
BM: Is technically a null with so little posts and little reactions, but his slot is just >randtown with all the +towncred he is getting.
clidd: Overall his posts are scummy, backtracking, bizarre explanations, but he is a much more complicated case and he goes beyond macro reads, so I don't think this macro read will be very helpful in determining his alignment.
Lunar Martian: Jumble was scummy, and then now I am getting a sense of disconnected reads from Lunar, switching from one person to another quickly. I completed Lunar's ISO and he is backtracking on my read multiple times, already this is the 3rd time he has gone back and forth between me being scum and me being town. That just feels like generally indecisive scum.

Wait Lunar, you talking about this? This isn't me admitting I was scummy, your read just changed like 3 times and I feel a massive disconnection between you and your reads. You thought I was scummy, then you thought I was town, and then you went back to scummy and now you are saying "ben is town" again.

[ben dover123]

OK let me address it. This is a really dumb wagon. The case on me is pathetic, there's nothing for me to even defend. Ben you say my read on you changed a lot, but when you criticized me for that you even admitted that you had been scummy. There's one scum on my wagon and 4 dumb townies. Lone is almost certainly scum here.

What? When was that? I gotta reread.

Lone is not scum. Have you seen his recent posts?

Pedit: :thonk: what is your reason for BM again?

BM isn't posting after repeatedly promising to be active. When BM gets called out he shows up and posts just enough that everyone gives him a pass. Also Lone's "welp" post is super scummy. It's scum trying to look like a townie who feels bad. Just kill me, then tomorrow when the cop has no result and the doctor is dead and you continue to self destruct with terrible reads I'll be laughing in the graveyard. Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad. No one is re-evaluating. Look at Lone's justification for voting me (spoiler alert: there's no justification other than straight up naked opportunism because I'm a person that people don't townread and other people are willing to vote me). Even after being repeatedly prodded for reasoning why I'm scum Lone hasn't provided any.

The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

...
Being salty about your wagon won't do anything about it. Just saying.
Can you explain how my reads are quite bad?
Can you try looking for Lone as a genuine newbie town?

[ben dover123]

Ah, I screwed it up. Here is a much better formatted version:

Here is Lunar's ISO btw clidd.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his original townread by the tone of this post.

Oh this.

More specifically: "My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff."

This isn't me accepting that I was scummy? It's just that for like 5 pages people were spamposting and I had no idea what was going on.

It was the first time you mentioned it. Yesterday or the day before. You said you didn't like my read changing on you, but also admitted that you had made some very questionable posts. Me re-evaluating isn't a scumtell. It's me being a townie and being unsure of my reads. As scum why would I change my reads like that? It would be so much easier to just pick a read and stick with it, or maybe change it once opportunistically.

And rather than assume me changing my mind is scummy you should ask me questions to try to uncover my true intentions. This is garbage play from you, tbh.

You know, the problem with newbie scum is that they are usually indecisive since if they choose to tunnel into a miselim, then what will town think once the miselim flips? That is the underlining thought process of newbie scum, and since you are so indecisive about your read on me, I suspect you are scared trying to chase my miselim.

Again, the salty behavior isn't doing you any justice. Changing your mind multiple times in one day is considered very indecisive and is considered a newbie scumtell. It's kind of like you are hedging on your elimination for the day and you are indecisive about how town will react once you chase the wrong elimination very hard.

Pedit: smh. Can you just have a straight attitude for a second? If you really think that all of these reasons are s***, then defend them yourself and don't ask everyone to "reconsider" all of their reasons. You are capable of that, I presume?

[ben dover123]

The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

Dude. You literally sheeped clidd about Lone being scum for having mafia goon as his favourite role.
I can't see how you would choose that over BM as town.

How is it dumb to think you're scum keeping your options open?

Thanks Rock, this was my point but it was much better worded.

The attitude of "Oh town has absolute s*** reasons but I'm not going to fix them myself" is not pro-town, you know.

[ben dover123]

I did defend myself. I defended myself against every point you've made. Actually, you've really only made one point. You defending yourself for "your brain going boom" suggests that because your brain went boom you made some posts that you disagree with in retrospect. If you stand by those posts then I want to go back and pressure you for them, but it seemed like you were retracting them.

Where is the evidence that I'm trying to keep my options open? I've been pretty transparent with my reads.

To everyone who thinks I'm scum: please post your case so I can engage with it.

Yeah, I regret every moment of those 5 pages, but I don't consider them scummy. I was just a brainless townie then. smh Yesterday was way too crazy.

"I've been pretty transparent with my reads." I'm still not understanding how you cannot see Lone as just a newbie town.

Ben: please go read Lone's posts and see if you can find any reasoning why Lone thinks I'm scum.

I have a feeling that Lone is just lost as a newbie town, it's hard to see him being scum and using these innocent questions as a veil.

[ben dover123]

Except I am fixing them. Lone is scum. BM is scummy. In what world am I not presenting my reads? You need to pull your head out of your ass and read my posts. And then before you read my posts, please pretend that you don't already assume I'm scum. You've decided that I'm scum and everything you read is viewed through that lens. It's not good play.

I can see this coming from town but the margin is relatively small. Especially your attitude, as right now just doesn't ping as pro-town.

[ben dover123]

I did defend myself. I defended myself against every point you've made. Actually, you've really only made one point. You defending yourself for "your brain going boom" suggests that because your brain went boom you made some posts that you disagree with in retrospect. If you stand by those posts then I want to go back and pressure you for them, but it seemed like you were retracting them.

Where is the evidence that I'm trying to keep my options open? I've been pretty transparent with my reads.

To everyone who thinks I'm scum: please post your case so I can engage with it.

Yeah, I regret every moment of those 5 pages, but I don't consider them scummy. I was just a brainless townie then. smh Yesterday was way too crazy.

"I've been pretty transparent with my reads." I'm still not understanding how you cannot see Lone as just a newbie town.

Ben: please go read Lone's posts and see if you can find any reasoning why Lone thinks I'm scum.

I have a feeling that Lone is just lost as a newbie town, it's hard to see him being scum and using these innocent questions as a veil.

Ignore the posts that are trying to look like a newbie town for a moment. Even a newbie town should be able to come up with a reason to scumread someone, right? Lone doesn't seem to have any reason for scumreading me.

Hm. Maybe it's hard for you to see but I have seen much, much worse from newbie town. In fact, the newbie believed in bandwagoning and none of his votes had any reasoning behind them. So, I say we just use too scummy to be scum for Lone.

Except I am fixing them. Lone is scum. BM is scummy. In what world am I not presenting my reads? You need to pull your head out of your ass and read my posts. And then before you read my posts, please pretend that you don't already assume I'm scum. You've decided that I'm scum and everything you read is viewed through that lens. It's not good play.

I can see this coming from town but the margin is relatively small. Especially your attitude, as right now just doesn't ping as pro-town.

speak for yourself.

This is what I mean. These sarcastic comments and salty behavior is just not what I consider a town at E-1 would be doing.

[ben dover123]

Ben, I think his rage can be real.

I know, but I just feel like his behavior isn't something I'd expect from a newbie at E-1. Maybe I'm used to something else but.

Pedit: ... I'll respond to this in a second.

[ben dover123]

46 pages on Day 1 in a newbie game? this is a monstrosity

I think it's time you actually do something. People (not me) are getting impatient over you.

[ben dover123]

If you got voted to E-1 and people couldn't provide any reasoning but assumed that you were scum and were only looking for other scum based on their interactions with you you'd probably also get frustrated. You aren't engaging with me in good faith or making any effort to consider the possibility that you're wrong. If you can't engage in good faith with me, I have no reason to do so with you. It doesn't matter what I say, you've decided that I'm scum. So I'm just gonna say things that make me feel better about dying, which in this case means ridiculing you.

Um, we aren't assuming you are scum. There are reasons behind my accusation, you know. More than "Lunar is indecisive".

I'd get frustrated, but I'd definitely go and start pointing out the flaws behind the accusations, addressing each one, not:

Ben you are way overconfident and it seems like your reads are quite bad. No one is re-evaluating.
The rest of you have really poor reasoning to think I'm scum, but at least there is some.

[
It was the first time you mentioned it. Yesterday or the day before. You said you didn't like my read changing on you, but also admitted that you had made some very questionable posts.

And rather than assume me changing my mind is scummy you should ask me questions to try to uncover my true intentions. This is garbage play from you, tbh.

The only thing you fixed was adding in the possibility of "Scum would choose a read and stick to it".

I can't really engage with you in good faith because you are very sure that Lone is scum and so is BM, and the reasons you provided I just can't agree with. Maybe we can work something together, but the way you are rejecting the possibility that Lone is genuinely newbie town is not helping us get together in good faith.

I am thinking about the possibility where I am wrong, and it's likely there, but this is likely where we are going today and as Trendall said, don't overthink it. I'll reconsider everything D2 if I am wrong.

[ben dover123]

at least the SEs being town helps, and Ben being obvtown helps narrow the pool nicely. Should be solvable, but I'm going to do it properly. You may as well consider me a replace-in at this point with how little I've been here.

Sigh...I had to do it. This game would have spiraled out of hand if I hadn't become so proactive. We are definitely looking to solve with PoE D2, with the amount of villagers we have on our hands.

Pedit: So you accept that Jumble was also scummy?

[ben dover123]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

Well, you sure lurked in a pretty obvious way, I'm not sure you would do it so obviously when there are people like clidd who know your meta.

[ben dover123]

You aren't really re-evaluating. I'm not asking you to engage me in good faith on my scumreads. I'm asking you to engage in good faith on your scumread of me.

And clidd I think that the scum lie in: Lone, BM, Rock.
Eliminate me, you, Trendall, Chumbo, and ben as possibilities, and that's where you wind up. Lavar could be scum but I think it's somewhat less likely.

How do you want me to engage in good faith on my SR on you?

[ben dover123]

eh, i suppose you're right that i wouldn't do it in an unethical way. I guess the more accurate characterisation is, as scum I naturally try to post less and lurk without being called out for lurking. So it's not really prod-dodging levels I suppose. And I only ever use VLA when I dont have time to post in a game for a period.

So you're saying that is NAI and that you're scum, right?

nah i'm town dude. i'm saying there's a difference between lurking and literally not posting or reading or doing anything.

This is true.

I didn't read most of the game before I replaced in, but I've read everything since then.

Then you still shouldn't be doing selective reading?

[ben dover123]

Then you still shouldn't be doing selective reading?

What do you even mean by selective reading?

Selective reading is what it sounds like: Only reading selected bits of the whole story.

Like only picking out certain quotes to judge your reads on, etc.

Well you could re-read with the assumption that I'm town and see if the things I say make sense. Currently you're reading with the assumption that I'm mafia and fitting everything I say to that narrative. You're connecting dots that don't exist, and I can't really defend myself.

You could also state your case on me in explicit terms, something I've asked everyone to do which no one has done.

Hm. Alright, I'll bring up my case again in a second.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: NotAJumbleOfNumbers ISO

1st post is just answers to my RQS.

I don't think "conserve your energy" really applies here? It's only day 1, and there are nights to help you recharge.

@above I was born in a world of Mafia where SE's are considered to teach newbies and be extremely competent.

How competent, exactly? Are there any further restrictions on becoming an SE? Are you an SE there too?

I seriously want to have a talk with you, but such a off-topic argument gets in the way quickly and before you know it we are deathtunneling each other.

I...what? Why can't we just let off-topic chats be off-topic chats?

Only focusing on me.

Okay, now this is something I have an issue with. You can't just assert everyone can just look like they're a townie easily, without a problem. I'll use myself as an example here: I have trouble at times

just posting in the thread

, let alone looking "obvious town".

Also, I found a few questions for you that aren't really related to what I just said, but they seem fine to tack on:

In 15, you suddenly defend your choice of not voting in RVS unprompted. Why?

In 69, you said you were probably going to "recede your leadership and proactive role", but you're still posting as frequently as before. Why?

Decent questions but tbh it seems like a small nudge rather than a attempt to solve my alignment, like clidd said.

Quick update so I don't fall out of this game entirely: Ben is slightly leaning scum to me, Chumbo seems town, Clidd is basically null right now, Trendall also seems town, everyone else hasn't posted enough to really read on.

This was a controversial readlist at the time. I'm not sure what his reason to SR me was.

I'm VLA for weekend

You have been afk long enough to get prodded (about 37 hours), and now you go VLA without offering anything? I don't like this at all.

I'm not sure why this was received badly? Later on he showed that he could at least give a one-line summary while on VLA, so that just begs the question of why he didn't just say it in his VLA post.

This was pointed out by nearly everybody, and it's kind of a weak push towards Chumbo.

Chumbo is most likely to be mafia here, as they're complaining about ben trying to 'look town' while at the same time complaining about 'this guy isn't posting enough!' and 'this guy hasn't answered my question!' (please nobody interpret this post as an answer to Chumbo's question). Classic mafia stuff - easy, obvious, and irrelevant things to pick up and complain about.

I don't think

not posting enough

is an irrelevant thing, though. In addition, the two sides of "not enough posts" and "trying too hard to look town" aren't necessarily opposites to each other. You can have a lower post count than wanted and still look LAMISTy.

Uh...not really a helpful or relevant post.

Posts 109 and 110 dripped me in the sense that he seemed withdrawn and not very committed to solving Ben's alignment, something I can theorize more in a newbie!Scum scenario.

Withdrawn? Yes. But that's just been a problem I've had in general with mafia. Everything's so hard to understand as someone who doesn't know much about the game and it can be tempting to just hold your thoughts to yourself so you don't look bad. And I think 110 is still a good question to ask.

Why does it feel like Jumble was overusing this defense of "I just can't post my thoughts"? Other than that not much to comment about this post. 110 was a question asking "Why can't I have off-topic chats", which doesn't classify as a good question in my books, but that is just my opinion about 110.

This is clidd's ISO on Jumble, I support the points in here too.

Spoiler:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

I don't intend to analyze post by post, but I noticed two interesting points in his progression:

1- He asks a lot of questions and does not process the answers, nor does he create reads with the information obtained. It is noted in the formulation of some questions, as in posts 109 and 194. The character of these questions is also doubtful.

2- Observations seem empty, as if they seemed to be giving an opinion, but in reality he was not getting anywhere, as in posts 195, 196 and 197. Post 197, in particular, demonstrates him entering a more self-affirming instance, in the sense that he feels the need to demonstrate that he really has a deficiency in the cognitive process of understanding and that his question had weight, implying that he would have to justify himself to me (and that does not make sense from a point of view town!Jumble, since he wouldn’t know my alignment and therefore wouldn’t feel obliged to offer me a satisfaction).

By extension, there is this scumgame of his that he published in the topic:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Which by the way demonstrates a behavior very similar to here, with inconclusive questions, instances of self-affirmation and a little devaluation of one's own ability (but the latter must be a trait of low self-esteem, not being AI).

Another small observation, which is quite subjective, but useful to mention is the way he illustrated his scumgame and towngame on the first post:

I think I've only finished one scum game so far, and it was this one. I didn't like my play there at all, but by default it's my best. As for town, I'd have to pick Open 793: Trust Fall. Yeah, it's a hydra, but all of my solo games weren't that good, honestly.

He refers to the scumgame as "this one", indicating cognitive distance from the item covered, while the towngame is inserted completely. In this context, I theorize that he unconsciously wanted to be associated with the town game (bigger, flashy text) and distance himself from the scumgame (smaller, unattractive text), and this is one of the concepts of something called "maintenance of appearance", which is one of the tactics that liars use to convey that they are linked to something positive, while trying to demonstrate that they are not associated with negative things. Of course, it is a bit of an overthink, but this is a very specific tell and difficult to identify (and it can also be easily mistaken if he was just too lazy to type both games in the same way) but added to the impressions I got from his ISO, end up having some weight.

Objectively speaking, I believe there is a greater chance that Jumble is more scum than town, so Lunar ends up inheriting that scummy impression.

Spoiler: Lunar ISO

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Hello! I had some issues with permissions and couldn't post. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but to answer Mr. Dover, this is my first game so I'm not really sure about any of that. I played a few games of irl mafia with some friends, but haven't played online so I'm really not sure what to expect. So far the people I'm most suspicious of are clidd who seems a bit off and artificial, and ben dover who looks like he's trying to look like hes being helpful without doing much to actually help or solve. On this page for example, Ben attacks Lavar for voting for Rockhopper, while he himself is also voting for Rockhopper and is pushing for more votes there.

VOTE: ben dover123

Mmmm...You lack context, my friend. The thing I am really suspicious of is that Lavar puts Rockhopper at E-1, with intent to hammer, but he has no good reason to do so. That is a bad look from Lavar, considering that the vc was made hours ago. Plus, the Rock wagon popped up way faster than I expected, which is surprising and scary at the same time.

E-1 means one vote away from death right? Sorry I spent some time reading the wiki but I think it will take me some time to adjust to and internalize the jargon on this site. Shouldn't you agree that Lavar has reason to put Rockhopper to E-1, since you're voting there yourself? You could always unvote if you're that concerned. Your concern rings as false, more an attempt to attack someone on the wagon to make them look bad if Rockhopper is town than an attempt to show genuine concern.

I really don't think ben is scum. I did before, but with his meta analysis and other newer posts, it doesn't seem like he is anymore. I don't see scum intentions.

i agree with this

I'm not a fan of how Lunar hard pushed me for his first two posts and then he all of a sudden declares I am town.

Also he's never getting eliminated is he so he doesn't even has to sacrifice himself at all necessarily.

I really dislike this push from trendall on the claimed doctor. The doctor claim will be tested at night, and trendall should know better as an SE.
VOTE: trendall

This is also a awkward vote plus reasoning. With context it should be known that Trendall was hard pushing clidd for scummy behavior before his claim. Maybe this is just lack of context from Lunar though.

Posts #640, #647, #663, and #713 are progression to voting clidd because clidd is lying.

VOTE: Ben Dover

That vote on clidd was terrible. Almost as bad as both the power roles claiming for no reason.

This backtrack on his townread isn't that great.

My defense for this is that my mental state went boom boom for a couple of pages there. It was so damn chaotic I had no idea what was going on for a few minutes. Clidd starting backtracking on his reads, then the tide turned and Lavar was doing scummy stuff.

I see rock's posts as townie. I think it's a bit melodramatic for clidd to get so frustrated and claim, and for rock to say "just kill me"... I don't think either of them was the most voted person at the time they did that.

Wait, wasn't this already noted by Trendall?

Like Lunar Martian, I get that that was scummy as shit from ben but you're not going to get four other people to vote for him in time.

There are four days left right? That's plenty of time. stop being so defeatist.

Nah clidd's my final vote today.

That said, this attitude is awful and does actually make it hard to kill anyone. Can people get over themselves and try to find scum rather than get themselves killed because they feel bad that they made a mistake?

This is a nitpicky coming from Lunar. The tone sounds like Lunar is ordering Trendall to do this and that.

Listen, I told him strictly to stop spamming one liners and give us some ideas on how to approach, but he kept on fluffposting and has been literally been bystanding this entire implosion.

Unfortunately for you, there's no rule saying we have to do what you say.

This is kind of harsh coming from Lunar. I think he has turned back on his townread by the tone of this post.

[ben dover123]

tbh Maybe the second post comes from more town but all the others ones I can see town and scum Lunar using.

Yeah, it could be newbie rage.

[ben dover123]

I just realized that Lone is from Pakistan.

:thonk:

As town Lunar, this is newbie rage, and as scum lunar, this is him trying to get us to turn back on our own reads by declaring them stupid and the reads bad. So, this appeal is probably just NAI.

[ben dover123]

To be honest, I just can't buy scum!Lone.

No one can. Especially me, I have had this situation with a newbie who didn't know anything and so I just used too scummy to be scum and it worked.

[ben dover123]

Wait, are you still using that Rock/mars take you had?

[ben dover123]

so who's scum?

This.

Isn't that like how he usually approaches games?

[ben dover123]

Wha? I'm not sure how this is scummy...

Although that last post is kind of odd for sure...

[ben dover123]

He gave me a feeling of exaggerated self-confidence, in the sense that he entered the game already in an advanced period of time (200+ posts) and, by default, he should be very uninformed about what was happening in the game, so , he would obviously have a harder time extracting reads. He demonstrated this' 'uncertainty' 'in post 217. But as you follow the next posts, he seems to act more and more confident and approaching the game in a relaxed way, as if nothing concerned him (an instance that is contrary to' “I'm in a 200-page game and I have no idea who is scum.” This self-confidence in post 221 is also very clear, where he evaluates the scumreading itself very highly.

It may just be a personal impression, but in my experience with newbie games (a lot between 1990 and 2020), this trusting behavior was usually reproduced by players with some kind of power (PR or mafia), who were unconsciously comfortable showing who were confident in themselves.

Oohhh...That kind of makes sense.

VOTE: lunar martian

hope that's a hammer, you're killing me here

...

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: Why am I so reluctant over hammering people
I have to get rid of this nagging habit of not hammering my SR's.

Yeah, who knows what will happen during the night.

[ben dover123]

I think BM was scumclaiming there, but let's see.

Wait, what do you mean?

[ben dover123]

Eh..I'm not sure that is a scumclaim but.

[ben dover123]

First

Post coming soon.

[ben dover123]

Sigh...rip Trendall, but he was basically dead anyways.

Tier list:

Tier I (No scum):

ben dover123, LoneMarkhor

Tier II (Maybe 1 scum, but not scumteam):

clidd, LavarManos

Tier III (At least 1 scum, possibly scumteam)

Rockhopper, Chumbo, BM

My PoE: {LavarManos, Rockhopper, Chumbo, BM}
Possible scumteams:
{LavarManos, Chumbo}
{LavarManos, BM}
{Rockhopper, BM}
{Chumbo, BM}

{LavarManos, Rockhopper} is just not possible since Lavar put Rock at E-1 with intent to hammer.
{Chumbo, Rockhopper} isn't likely since I doubt Chumbo would put Rock at E-2, then when Rock reaches E-1 he doesn't unvote.
{BM, clidd} isn't likely since BM never removed his vote on clidd.

Spoiler: Clidd

clidd has been weird all game long. His actions just don't match his vt playstyle, but I think I have finally reached a conclusion on him.

First of all, if clidd knows the setup is double goons, then he has a 1/3 chance of getting a 2 goons + 1 cop + 6 vt's setup, and a 2/3 chance of outing another PR. This alone cannot make him partners with a newbie since I doubt he would ever let a newbie try to deepwolf when he has outed a PR. Therefore, the only possible team now that has clidd is {BM, clidd}

Second of all, clidd could rolefish and just stay away from claiming. It's a lot safer, and tons easier for his teammate.

Third of all, {BM, clidd} isn't actually that likely in my eyes, because BM never unvoted clidd, which I don't quite understand. Sure, BM was awkward when talking to clidd, but he didn't unvote which I think ruins the possibility of a {BM, clidd} team.

Finally, analyzing the time of the claim:
Y'see, clidd claims when he was at E-3, with Rock's wagon coming out of E-1. If clidd was scum, there is literally no motivation to claim here as such a risky play, which makes clidd even more town.
I think this may be doctor clidd trying to get our attention to work with him here. Scum clidd doing all the above things is just so unrealistic.

Conclusion: clidd is town, BM has a 3/4 chance of being scum, we can prove BM is scum if we prove that either Lavar or Chumbo is town.

[ben dover123]

pagetop

We have had our differences clidd, but let us work together here. I believe you are town in good faith, and BM has a high chance of being scum. Not confscum, but a very high chance.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: damn it. this is pagetop

I'm out for the time being until someone responds to my wallpost.

[ben dover123]

Good analysis Ben!
VOTE: Battle Mage

BM isn't confscum until you are very likely town.

Reviewing your ISO.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: LavarManos' ISO

I know what to look for in this gamestate and I will intervene and talk with others when I feel necessary.

You say that RVS is fundamentally flawed, and that people will use the excuse that their votes were random. How so, then, do you know what to look for? Other than votes what are you going to read people off of. I don't like this attitude, but I'm inclined to think it comes from town more than mafia. I envision a newbie mafia would try to blend in instead of openly going against the crowd. However, ben here does not sound like a newbie too much.

I need to conserve my energy for bigger issues

What the...

I start to lose focus on my reads and who I'm scumreading if I try and be extremely townie.

What do you think makes an obvious townie? What would you do if you were trying to be extremely townie? I am very confused as to how that would make you lose focus.

Hm. That explains a bit of the weird sentence, but I'm not ready to accept this revelation yet.

Do you think mafia would intentionally lie about not being a native speaker? This seems quite silly to me.

It seems to me that Trendall overreacted to clidd's original vote. I don't think clidd's vote was serious at all, and I'm wondering why Trendall seemed to think it was serious.

Don't really get this talk about 'first' vs 'last'. Trendall's intent seemed pretty clear to me.

I also want to give the newbies some time to shine brighter than me, I feel like I'm naturally overshadowing all of them combined.

We get it.

There is no 'omgus', I didn't vote for you because you voted me, I voted for you for the reasons that I stated.

Your reasons hinge on clidd's vote being a serious one. If it was, I would be more inclined to agree with you, but it wasn't.

I don't fos you anymore.

VOTE: BM

Time to sort the last SE.

Are you scumreading Battle Mage, or just trying to pressure him? I don't find pressure votes particularly effective, especially with a more experienced player like Battle Mage.

Also, I don't see why a scum SE is any less motivated to push a town SE than a town newbie. It all depends on how the game develops.

Another thing I've noticed about him is that he likes to use the words townie and conservative.

What is scummy about this? For the most part, I think your argument against ben could also be an argument that he is an awkward townie. I'm leaning towards him being an awkward townie, and I think he is an easy target for mafia.

Scum probably like the current gamestate with so many inactive players, so following the inactive crowd would definitely go in their favor.

That's not how it works. Please do not make assumptions based on speculation like this. There's nothing right now that suggests that scum are within the active or within the more inactive players. Regardless, it is generally in scum's advantage to post more.

I have never considered or seen any scum SE try to eliminate another SE D1.

What are you even basing this off of?

I'm sure anyone can be obvious town if they just tried.

No.

How active are you going to be this game?

Depends on schedule

VOTE: Lavarmanos
that's the first scum

Incorrect, and it would be helpful if you gave reasoning.

Thoughts on players
Trendall-He seems to be making various observations that seem unlikely to come from scum.
clidd-I don't see any reason to scumread him, and he seems like he is trying to work together with the town.
ben-Seems like bait, but I also don't like the way he sheeps on popular opinion(voting chumbo after trendall and calling clidd scum after others start to do so)
Chumbo-Seems more interested in calling other players out than solving on his own
NAJON-No opinion.
Battle Mage-No opinion
Rockhopper-No opinion
Lone Markhor-No opinion

I like this post, collecting thoughts about other people while he is reading. This post gives me townpings.

Ben calling all of clidd's posts null or scummy is not a good look for his read on clidd.

Setting a stance, which is towny.

What does thonk stand for?
I did not say you aren't allowed to make takes. I said that you shouldn't make takes based off of no evidence. There's no incentive for scum to remain inactive when they can attempt to control the game by staying active. Also, I don't believe the game to be inactive at all. A few players have already commented that they weren't expecting the game to go this fast, so it just seems like your perception is different from others which leads to you thinking that people are "inactive" and thus scummy.
I also feel like being extremely townie does not constitute losing focus on your reads. For example, if you are constantly making reads based off of other people's posts, it makes you look townie and also helps keep you focused on the game. Post 231 is way too idealistic.
@Chumbo There was no contradiction. If you went back and read, clidd explained that it was mostly a joke.

Enforcing his stance by explaining it in more detail. Relatively towny.

What do you think about his entrance?

I don't have much of an opinion on it. His vote on me is interesting, and I waiting for his reasoning.

This sounds passive, but it is NAI I believe.

Rockhopper's attack on Pragdoid would be fine... if Pragdoid wasn't a newbie. I think consensus following reads and searching for contradictions are just as likely to come from a player who is still learning the ropes.

Well I was assuming that the mafias were in the afk people, but their replacements seem nice, so you went back to being more likely to be mafia I'm like rly sorry

This seems too bold for scum to say.

so that when I die night 1 town still has a idea of where to go afterwards.

You won't die on night 1

I still have a light townread on clidd.

Towny-ish

Rockhopper looks like scum who is trying to be seen as too scummy.
VOTE: Rockhopper

This vote didn't give me the right pings for an E-1 vote.

lol

Lavar treated clidd's claim a little too likely for my liking.

Posts ranging from #649-943 are all light fluff.

I don't see anything about defeatism, and I don't understand why it is scummy in this situation. Both you and Trendall are the loudest voices in the games and also happen to be his biggest opponents. I could see him being exasperated as town here, and I don't think the way he presented his claim is likely to come from scum.

This defense for clidd actually gives me hard townpings.

Looking at Lavar's ISO, he actually comes off relatively towny, with the exception of his Rock vote and his reaction to clidd's claim.

Pragdoid looked like a newbie town from his posts, so Lavar is likely town.

Before we call out BM for being confscum, I'd like to hear from other people.

[ben dover123]

pagetop

We have had our differences clidd, but let us work together here. I believe you are town in good faith, and BM has a high chance of being scum. Not confscum, but a very high chance.

I'm looking forward to that.

I need to take a look at the others, but I'm also pretty sure that BM is scum. The way the hammer occurred at the end of the day seemed very ''you already know that I'm a scum, so I'll try to eliminate at least one town while I can'' and there is the ''vla-prod'' thing I'm not townreading anymore (and I think you know why too).

Yeah. That BM hammer was wacky too.

Looks like we are already vibing on the same wavelength. One favor I'll ask of you though, please don't pocket me again.

[ben dover123]

hold on, Lunar is dead! I'm a moron

back to the drawing board...

Are you kidding me...

[ben dover123]

maybe we should massclaim...

ok tf

is bm openwolving at this point

[ben dover123]

For example, Lavar is literally just posting one liners like "bruh" and "you're going to get roleblocked" and obvious stuff like that, as if he is coasting the sidelines watching town just go boom boom

Pedit: You have literally no right to troll here bud.

VOTE: LavarManos

Anyone want to jump on here as well?

I wasn't trolling dude, I forgot who got elimmed. It was a long night...

But yeah I agree with Ben here. The vote on me today was very opportunistic, and shamelessly buddying.

VOTE: LavarManos

i wasn't talking to you

what is this coming from BM

clidd help

[ben dover123]

these posts from bm are just like what

[ben dover123]

ben, you have done great in this game. i just want you to know that. and not to feel too bad about what's about to happen.

Don't try to sucker over me. clidd already tried and I don't want to go over that again.

[ben dover123]

no i mean it man. i'm all over this place, i see what you do - i think you are a great newbie! hopefully if i am back in the future, we shall play together again in more satisfying and victorious setting!

We shall see each other as teammates in another game, but not this one, I'm afraid.

[ben dover123]

ah you could be gracious and take the compliment well meant...

No, no I take that compliment for granted if you are truly not suckering up for me. But unfortunately it seems that we aren't teammates for this game, the way things are going.

Pedit: yeah the comments are just...

[ben dover123]

But if you two want to talk a little, I wouldn't mind, considering that the game is social.

Do you think BM is scum too?

I want to see what the others say anyways.

Pedit: I'll be wary, thanks

[ben dover123]

VOTE: BM

Keep BM at E-2 until everyone else comes

[ben dover123]

eh? i thought we were elimming Lavar today?

No, I am definitely against a Lavar elim. I posted their ISO btw.

[ben dover123]

Don't put him at E-1 (bc he can self-hammer and deny our D2)

i wouldnt self hammer dude, i think that's against the rules - 'playing against your wincon'. Plus you might get info from whoever hammers me, or defends me.

Pfft.

Exhibit A: Newbie Game 2040

[ben dover123]

I want to see what Chumbo, Lavar, Rock and Lone are thinking in terms of PoE.

Yeah, I'm thinking this too.

[ben dover123]

Don't put him at E-1 (bc he can self-hammer and deny our D2)

i wouldnt self hammer dude, i think that's against the rules - 'playing against your wincon'. Plus you might get info from whoever hammers me, or defends me.

Pfft.

Exhibit A: Newbie Game 2040

i don't think that's fair, to use other games as part of a case against me.

I think I'm being stitched up here!

I only showed 2040 to say that it

is

possible to self hammer as scum. Not against your win-con. So we aren't putting you at E-1 any time soon.

[ben dover123]

I knew I could win you round! You're a smart guy, Mr Dover!

Win you round?

I think I am going to recede talking to you, I don't want to get mindmelded too hard.

[ben dover123]

I think we should do Lavar, and if Lavar flips scum I get a clean slate

Eh...nah I still don't think Lavar is a good elim for today.

Here is my plan:

BM flips red: Hang Rock then Chumbo for the win

BM flips green: Hang Chumbo (confscum) then Lavar for the win

[ben dover123]

Like that strategy should work 99% of the time unless clidd is scum, which is that 1% I highly doubt.
tbh if clidd is scum he took a humongous risk and the rngsus blessed him, so he doesn't deserve his scum win if he is scum.
I don't think Lavar and BM are of the same alignment anyways based on how they are attacking each other right off the bat of D2.
Let's just use this plan and win.

[ben dover123]

I can't post much right now (work), but BM has to be scum. Potential partners are [rock, lavar] maybe clidd. I feel like BM and lavar are distancing themselves to make it seem like they're not partners. No way does a red BM flip mean lavar is definitely town.
More later.

clidd could be scum if BM is scum? I'm doubting theories where clidd is scum...

Also Lavar just looks good in his ISO. The thing that really, really, pings me town from Lavar is him defending clidd.

[ben dover123]

clidd could be scum if BM is scum? I'm doubting theories where clidd is scum...

I have to look into it still.

Just look at my wallpost earlier. Those are all my thoughts summed up into 1 post.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Chumbo

Why Chumbo still?

[ben dover123]

Hiya Lone!

[ben dover123]

Where Lavar makes him suspicious are those posts where both PRs claimed.He was trolling(lurking? or whatever).Also I think Battlemage could be sacrificing himself to keep a distance from Lavar.Or it could be Rock.

That's fair. The way BM is talking doesn't make any interactions really obvious, so we are sort of clueless going into D3.

Where Lavar makes him suspicious are those posts where both PRs claimed.He was trolling(lurking? or whatever).Also I think Battlemage could be sacrificing himself to keep a distance from Lavar.Or it could be Rock.

Both of these possibilities hold value, however Lavar has definitely been more towny.

VOTE: Chumbo

Nothing has made me suspicious of Chumbo so far.Are you trying to get him miseliminated?
Most probable scum team is {BM,Rock} imo.

Yeah, I think so too.

[ben dover123]

Hey Ben,should we hammer BM Now?

Just chill out for now. I want to hear more from {Lavar, Chumbo, Rock}.

[ben dover123]

@ben: what is the significance of BM not unvoting clidd? I don't get that part.

If you go back to D1, you can see that BM found clidd really towny, but then didn't unvote and acted a little weird instead. BM's vote made clidd go to E-1, remember? I think that if the solve was {BM, clidd}, BM would panic unvote, because obviously he wouldn't want to get clidd to hammer range again.

But yeah, the hammer was awful ngl.

[ben dover123]

But yeah, BM hammering like that screams scum to me. He said nothing about his reads or anything.
Then the conversation today makes it obvious. Saying Lone and Lunar has partner equity, when he just hammered lunar. Him saying we should massclaim (what would be the point). I don't think he's bothered catching up.

I think it's likely that rockhopper is his partner.
Lavar is my second choice, based on BM's vote on him.
clidd is very likely actually a doc, but it's not a certainty and I don't get why BM not removing his vote is significant. I'm pretty sure trendall was the only other person on clidd's wagon at the time and no one else was expressing a desire to eliminate clidd d1 after the claim. Ben voted him for a very short period but I think he was just losing his mind at the time.

Ben and Lone are very town.

I honestly feel like Lavar was supposed to be the LHF that was going to be miseliminated today, luckily no one is going to listen to BM at this point.

Yeah, his actions are just mad crazy. He hasn't bothered to reread, and especially that {Lone, Lunar} solve is complete garbage since BM hammered Lunar.

I went into state of insanity for a bit of that dumpster fire of a D1, don't mind me

Rock's recent posts aren't great either. His vote on BM looks a lot worse than Lavar's vote on BM.

[ben dover123]

Assuming we are all correct on Lone, right?

you gotta be clidding me!

:kekw:

Don't doubt yourself clidd, Lone is so town at this point.

VOTE: Battle Mage

UNVOTE:

I do not get why this town indicative

I don't know if this is Rock "trying" to undo our townread on Chumbo but...
Like, at least Chumbo reads and has a good opinion. Lavar and Rock are cruising by the sidelines

Alright the plan is as follows:

If BM flips green: Hang Chumbo (confscum) then Lavar for the win
If BM flips red: Hang Rock then Lavar for the win.

My guess now is likely {BM, Rock} or smth.

[ben dover123]

cool
VOTE: Battle Mage

. . .

what is this

[ben dover123]

Battle Mage still seems scummy in the sense that he doesn't seem townie.

Yeah, but like Rock's vote though...

Honestly, clidd you can probably hammer, the plan has been set out.

I'm dead tonight btw.

[ben dover123]

Good analysis Ben!
VOTE: Battle Mage

For example, Lavar is literally just posting one liners like "bruh" and "you're going to get roleblocked" and obvious stuff like that, as if he is coasting the sidelines watching town just go boom boom

Pedit: You have literally no right to troll here bud.

VOTE: LavarManos

Anyone want to jump on here as well?

I wasn't trolling dude, I forgot who got elimmed. It was a long night...

But yeah I agree with Ben here. The vote on me today was very opportunistic, and shamelessly buddying.

VOTE: LavarManos

eh? i thought we were elimming Lavar today?

I think we should do Lavar, and if Lavar flips scum I get a clean slate

Battle Mage still seems scummy in the sense that he doesn't seem townie.

Like this doesn't seem like BM and Lavar are of the same alignment. If Lavar/BM is w/w, he definitely wouldn't have voted, possibly would try to divert our attentions.

Battle Mage still seems scummy in the sense that he doesn't seem townie.

UNVOTE:

cool
VOTE: Battle Mage

This seems much worse than Lavar.

[ben dover123]

EBWOP: I accidentaly quoted Lavar twice. This was the quote from Rock that I wanted to put there

VOTE: Battle Mage

[ben dover123]

If you go back to D1, you can see that BM found clidd really towny, but then didn't unvote and acted a little weird instead. BM's vote made clidd go to E-1, remember? I think that if the solve was {BM, clidd}, BM would panic unvote, because obviously he wouldn't want to get clidd to hammer range again.

Ok, that makes more sense now. I forgot he put clidd at E-1.

What do you think about Rock's recent actions?

[ben dover123]

My thoughts haven't changed all that much. The vote on me early on could be trying to distract from a BM elim, then changing it to BM when he realizes everyone wants to eliminate BM today.

tbh his backtracking and following a BM elim is just hella sus

[ben dover123]

Are you having second thoughts about BM? I still think he's the safest bet right now.

No, definitely not.

[ben dover123]

In relation to D3, my opinion is that Ben and who is town among you, try to reach a consensus to hunt down the last scum (or in a more remote scenario, two scums). Of course, the elimination plan that Ben suggested is excellent, but it is important that all slots are reevaluated overnight, especially Lone and Lava, assuming that the focus tends to go unilaterally towards eliminating Chumbo or Rock.

I think we are ready to flip BM.

Rock definitely looks like the better elimination tomorrow, yeah.

If BM flips RB'er, clidd, protect me and sacrifice yourself.

[ben dover123]

D2 was a lot better, you know. clidd came back from his meta scum tone and we are working together at last to get rid of these last scum.

Like, I'm fairly certain that Lavar is town if BM is scum, and Chumbo seems towny enough, so {BM, Rock} looks like the final solve.

[ben dover123]

[ben dover123]

If clidd is scum and he actually gambited on a doc claim so early I'll eat a sock post-game.

But things are piecing together for me now and I fairly certain clidd is town.

Hopefully I get to see another day, but likely I'll meet you guys in post-game.

What a game...

Pedit: If BM is maf RB'er, I'll lead town, but if BM is just a plain maf goon then clidd will lead the plan I laid out.

[ben dover123]

Also sorry borkjerfkin for the 6 day early elimination :kekw:

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Rockhopper

If Rock flips green go for Chumbo.

[ben dover123]

but I doubt we have to do that.

[ben dover123]

Yeah, Rockhopper is what I'm thinking too. Did anyone else take clidds advice and review other people's ISOs? Nothing really changed for me, but I'm curious to see if anything changed for you guys.

Nothing has really changed either, mostly Rock's behavior D2 was the weirdest change of them all.

[ben dover123]

Well, I'm not. But I won't make a point.

I do want us to analyze {Chumbo, Lavar, Lone} better before my elim.

You aren't going to towncase yourself or anything? What was going on D2?

[ben dover123]

If BM flips red: Hang Rock then Lavar for the win.

If Rock flips green go for Chumbo.

This isn't good

The plan changed if you haven't noticed. I think Lavar is definitely more towny than Chumbo, because I have seen the "scum quickhammers scum" happen before, but your D2 was just wack.

[ben dover123]

The plan changed if you haven't noticed. I think Lavar is definitely more towny than Chumbo, because I have seen the "scum quickhammers scum" happen before, but your D2 was just wack.

In what way was that a quickhammer?

It was 6 days early, btw. But I think overall you are town, Rock is last scum.

VOTE: Chumbo

VOTE: Chumbo

Why Chumbo still?

I missed a few pages, nevermind

VOTE: Battle Mage

But yeah, BM hammering like that screams scum to me. He said nothing about his reads or anything.
Then the conversation today makes it obvious. Saying Lone and Lunar has partner equity, when he just hammered lunar. Him saying we should massclaim (what would be the point). I don't think he's bothered catching up.

I think it's likely that rockhopper is his partner.
Lavar is my second choice, based on BM's vote on him.
clidd is very likely actually a doc, but it's not a certainty and I don't get why BM not removing his vote is significant. I'm pretty sure trendall was the only other person on clidd's wagon at the time and no one else was expressing a desire to eliminate clidd d1 after the claim. Ben voted him for a very short period but I think he was just losing his mind at the time.

Ben and Lone are very town.

I do not get why this town indicative

You also said on D1 that Lava and Lunar were your solve, so why is Chumbo your main suspect now?

I said {Chumbo, Lunar} was my solve.

And what about Lava, do you have your reasons to TR him or you just agree with something that I or Ben said about the slot?

I have my reasons for we he's more likely town than Chumbo, 1040, 1057

cool
VOTE: Battle Mage

I think we can all agree that this is some weird progression?

[ben dover123]

You voted BM, then unvoted, then voted again. That was probably the most crazy part of your D2.

UNVOTE:

[ben dover123]

And I do agree that we need a closer look at the other slots. For instance, all I know about Lavar is that he's going along with consensus yesterday and today without saying much. From his ISO, I have no idea what he thinks about any other slots other than rock.

Pedit: you called for the hammer.

Yeah, that's true. Based on interactions I'd say chumbo is town, I think if he was scum with BM he would have attacked Rock (because that was his other strong SR). Lavar started out strong but his slot generally was declining, tbh I have to review what was up with BM trying to get a Lavar elim off the bat

[ben dover123]

I'm getting tired btw, if I sound kinda crazy and my arguments start becoming crap just ignore me. I feel like Rock is scum by just his overall look (what has he done that strikes towny to you) whether as Lavar actually had some towny moments.

[ben dover123]

I understand, but I didn't realize BM could selfhammer and deprive us of convo until Clidd pointed that out.

What exactly made you revote so quickly after realizing it?

I didn't think it was necessary after 1302

Wait, BM self-hammering wasn't necessary after my post? I didn't expect you to turn back so quickly. It didn't look good imo.

[ben dover123]

*I didn't think more convo was necessary.
It was up to you if you wanted to unvote and talk more about the plan.

Like, what I am surprised about is your progression to BM. You switched off of Chumbo so quickly, I could say this is scum realizing that the Chumbo wagon wasn't going to get any traction but I'll take in any town perspectives as well.

[ben dover123]

Yeah, I was pretty confident that Lunar was scum D1, with Chumbo.
I wouldn't expect both scum to be on my wagon at E-2 and E-1, so {Lavar, Chumbo} was unlikely FMPOV.
I voted for Chumbo because I wanted to believe I was right, but BM was more likely.

. . .

So you thought that Chumbo was scum D1 but he was E-2 on your wagon

and then you don't think Chumbo could be scum now on D2

but you still voted Chumbo in the beginning of D2, and then you voted BM because why? Just because all of us were saying it was BM?

[ben dover123]

Something about the line of thought in the above post feels wrong

[ben dover123]

No. To be more precise,
{BM, Chumbo}
{BM, Lavar}
{Lavar Chumbo}
were my final solves after Lunar's flip.

I explained why I thought Chumbo was independently scummy D1, but the third pair made little sense which implied a higher chance of scum!BM.

Like I get this but there isn't much reasoning to vote Chumbo in the first place after Lunar's flip if this is your thought process...

[ben dover123]

I didn't give it much thought.
BM wasn't in my PoE the previous day and I thought I had to be right about at least one slot in {Lunar, Chumbo}

. . .

tbh with a hang PoE of {Lavar, Rock} we win either way but I want to be accurate here. Both of these players are weird: Lavar had a really towny start and now is just really scummy, Rock had a scummy start but his responses here are actually kind of towny. smh

[ben dover123]

I do want us to analyze {Chumbo, Lavar, Lone} better before my elim.

Lone is very town in my eyes, Chumbo is town based on interactions before BM's flip.

[ben dover123]

It is either rock or lavar.Eliminate one today one tomorrow and we win.
Though I also think rock's responses are town somewhat but there is only one way to find out the truth.
VOTE: Rockhopper

Attention:E-1

If Lavar hammers he is confscum. Chumbo, don't hammer please.

[ben dover123]

don't hammer please.

Got it

I'm going to review Rock's ISO, I want to see if I find anything interesting.

[ben dover123]

Spoiler: Rock's ISO

what's up townsfolk of 2043

so who's scum?

UNVOTE:

im doing fine bendover, love your name btw

VOTE: Lavarmanos
that's the first scum

Starts off with a light tone, then automatically says "Lavar is scum" after. This is a weird progression.

VOTE: Lavarmanos
that's the first scum

Incorrect, and it would be helpful if you gave reasoning.

I'm sorry about my inactivity, I wasn't expecting the game to move as quickly as it has. And from my pov the game started wednesday night, so I didn't think missing 1 full day would be as detrimental as it has been.

I am going to do a full re-read tomorrow morning, but my preliminary reads are that Ben and Chumbo are the most likely town, based on Ben's proactiveness and well thought out reasoning, as well as his change of stance on Chumbo. My view on Chumbo is similar to his, I think he was genuine in his read of Ben. Trendall I could go either way on. clidd gives a a bit of a scumread, but this is entirely based on gut alone. Everyone else hasn't posted enough to get any kind of read on.

I will do my best to get back to anyone's questions tonight if they ask any, but with the weekend here I should be more active.

That's most probably a scum stance IMO. It's just a reflection of the consensus with lazy reasoning.

VOTE: Trendall

There is a tell for ''hello'' without vote.

clidd is first mafia on the basis that he supposed loves to use meta, but didn't check back to see if this is just something I commonly do and instead thinks it's like a generalised 'tell'. These two lines of thinking aren't compatible with each other so mafia.

VOTE: clidd

I don't think there is a tell for "hello" that confirms that someone is a mafia.

And I feel like you're doing mental gymnastics by assuming that I "love" using meta (I never said I do, only that I used it in the past often), as well as ignoring the context of me being away from the site and the influence that would have in the way I'm playing.

Honestly your earlier interactions with Trendall only strengthens my slight scumread on you. In this series of interactions you claim that there is a tell for "hello" without a vote, he responds with what looked like an omgus vote to me, and then you contradict yourself with your response, claiming that you don't think there is a tell for "hello". So which is it? I need to re-read the thread completely when I have a clearer head, but this seems disingenuous to me. Also, your take on Trendall saying "first mafia" seemed like you were grasping at straws.

It's also pretty scummy to automatically equate contradictions to scumminess. The same argument holds true for a major portion of RVS votes, so if the SR did stem from here, it reinforces my read.

This is bad logic, but I don't think it is an automatic tell by itself.

It's strange that Rock came into the game with a very specific view of Pragdoig/Lavar's slot.

I didn't.

You went from "who's scum" to "Lavar is scum" very quickly, I think that is what clidd meant.

Interesting. You are now a scum lean.

This was a wacky scumlean.

Sure, bad reads != scummy in a vacuum, but my readlist in the previous page should appear to be obv!scum to any towny reading it. I state my opinion on how I think it's scummy to go along with the consensus, and immediately proceed to make a polarizing readlist with the most unsubstantiated garbage reads. That should look like maf trying not to contradict themselves while failing to give good reasoning in this context, and the fact that you didn't notice this points to you being scum more often than not due to TMI.

Woah, woah, woah, watch where you swing that TMI hammer around my dude.

Town - {BM, bend, clidd, Trendall, NAJON}
Scum- {Lavar}

This are just bad reads. How many times do I have to say that bad reads =/= you are scum. Also why the actual f*** would you purposely make bad reads. That makes absolutely no sense from a towny perspective.

Seems a bit out of proportion. I did say that I only had a scumlean.
VOTE: bendover123

Also why the actual f*** would you purposely make bad reads. That makes absolutely no sense from a towny perspective.

Why not? And how does that matter as a response to my read?

Back and forth between me and Rock. I'll show my meta research on Rock to see whether this is classic town Rock behavior or if this is something weird.

They are town masons?

How did you arrive at this?

Probably better if we don't discuss

This gives me townpings

ugh. just elim me I hate this.

10/10 reads lol

meh it's frustrating to be in this position

is it silly to think there's scum on my wagon based on how easy/comfortable it is?

(after I flip that is)

I hardly accept AtE but don't you guys think that this is a bit of a stretch for Rock? (Rock has never had a scum game before)

It seems unnecessary for scum!him to risk it and ruin his image (he was thought to be pretty towny, this would be perceived poorly) for a very unlikely VI hammer.
I would also expect scum!him to come up with some excuse in case he did decide to take this route.

This attempt at sorting Lavar's alignment gives me townpings.

D2 was already analyzed and Rock replied, so no need to put D2 here.

[ben dover123]

. . .
GG Chumbo but like
D1 was horrible
also the hammer was :///////// no offense to Lone or anything but he should look out for that next time

[ben dover123]

well played, Chumbo.
good game.

Also huge rips for Rock
I literally said chumbo don't hammer and then I was going to towncase rock cause he actually looked good in spots and then chumbo hammered. That's a fat L

[ben dover123]

The point is that Lava was not really demonstrating that he was town, while Chumbo probably seemed more persuasive to Lone.

Yeah, which makes it all the more obvious for lone to vote lavar. Very unfortunate, I must say, but that's a lot of my fault since I couldn't finalize the plan.

Dumb townies the most plentiful hahahahaha......

Don't hurt yourself Lone, you kept yourself out of the hangpool and that equally as important as solving the game.

[ben dover123]

The point is that Lava was not really demonstrating that he was town, while Chumbo probably seemed more persuasive to Lone.

Yeah, that's the main point.But I should have given thought to other possibilities.Though I learned a lot the hard way.

Anyways, signup for the next game and try again! No harm in doing so and it improves your play by a lot.

[ben dover123]

i mean if there's anything to take from this

the only time to claim is when it's going to either save you or unearth scum

neither of those happened this game in either claim; 7-2 vanilla is not a winning prospect for town

Pfft you tell me
This was such a meme game

[ben dover123]

Chumbo...you absolute legend!!

I enjoyed watching this game from heaven more than actually being alive in it I think . Chumbo, great teammate, really enjoyed playing with you (and sorry again I sucked). But you did it, as I knew you would!

Completely agree with Mod - town was massively handicapped from Day 1 with the 2 PR claims. If either PR doesn't claim, I think we probably lose this game because we had picked up some bogus crumbs. MVP performance to Ben though - continually second-guessing and sorting, it's a testament to you that we actually considered killing you instead of the PRs early on.

I thought Day 2 went fairly well, we sowed the seeds for the 2 mis-elims needed and it played out basically as expected. Day 1 was too fricking long, and I promise you I'm hammering in that spot regardless of alignment in any newbie game with a 50-page Day 1.

This is mostly GG's to Chumbo, but otherwise I had the game down and I almost solved it but Chumbo hammered.