Newbie 2016: Snapdragons (Game Over)

[Battle Mage]

I'm town here

[Battle Mage]

TheThirteenthJT - are you town too? who is scum here?

[Battle Mage]

Pro tip: get an avatar.

VOTE: licketyquickety

are you a Pro?

[Battle Mage]

This isn't Yahtzee.

BTW, I didn't actually show off my heavier tastes in music yet, so who's ready for that?

7 pages since I entered the game at 3 days. It's been 3 days over 4th of July weekend and we doubled our post count. Pretty sure that's a win for me.

7 pages since I entered the game at 3 days. It's been 3 days over 4th of July weekend and we doubled our post count. Pretty sure that's a win for me.

NGL, as a brit, I completely forgot about the 4th of July being a thing. That actually explains so much about why the games I'm in are dead quiet

I won't hold it against you. There is very little reason to remember the 4th of July if you are from a different country.

I'm guessing not...

[Battle Mage]

What happened to make the RVS go so quickly in your other game?

The player I put my RV on voted for subsequently voted for themselves and explained how when they are town they appear scummy and vice-versa. His attitude and prolific posting got things going quick.

This was me!

[Battle Mage]

This isn't Yahtzee.

BTW, I didn't actually show off my heavier tastes in music yet, so who's ready for that?

7 pages since I entered the game at 3 days. It's been 3 days over 4th of July weekend and we doubled our post count. Pretty sure that's a win for me.

7 pages since I entered the game at 3 days. It's been 3 days over 4th of July weekend and we doubled our post count. Pretty sure that's a win for me.

NGL, as a brit, I completely forgot about the 4th of July being a thing. That actually explains so much about why the games I'm in are dead quiet

I won't hold it against you. There is very little reason to remember the 4th of July if you are from a different country.

I'm guessing not...

I feel... Violated.

UNVOTE:

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

See this is an issue now, I don't like playing with Battle Mage, I feel like he's too important as asset for town as scum and town, which is just a huge pain.

is that a compliment? <3

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

[Battle Mage]

Clarkybaby, you're still here! This is going to be fun!

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

See this is an issue now, I don't like playing with Battle Mage, I feel like he's too important as asset for town as scum and town, which is just a huge pain.

is that a compliment? <3

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

consider me well and truly pocketted for the rest of the game!

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, I made you an avatar so you can now be a pro like me.

I appreciate the effort here! I will actually consider using this.

[Battle Mage]

I'll catch up properly tomorrow. I've currently read enough to see that we've outted a (claimed) PR already.

[Battle Mage]

OI! I am here you know....

[Battle Mage]

TheThirteenthJT - are you town too? who is scum here?

If not you than it's Clark and/or Raya. For Clark look at rqs and you will see why, for Raya I have a case. Homura would be most likely partner for Raya. Quick summary of my cases. Not home yet.

That's helpful thanks dude, I've got one of those.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Explain?

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

1. I can buy that.
2. I don't think anyone would expect to get towncred for asking "what moved your previous game from RVS?" so LAMIST is mis-applied here. You could argue the post is scummy for just being an empty platitude and not actual content, although it was Page 1 of their first game, and it does suggest a low-key impatience to actually get into some proper debate and scumhunting, which would be town-indicative.
3. The 2 votes were unexplained, and just said "she is scum". I'm not sure what sort of response she would have given? Her last post was a response to the RQS from 72offsuit, which then prompted him to answer the questions, and he refused without explanation. It wouldn't really surprise me if she wasn't that engaged by the quality of discussion and lack of meaningful engagement to this point.

I'm generally a big advocate of pressuring lurkers on Day 1, but this was more like picking off the newest player with a wagon which originally wasn't substantiated, and the reasoning eventually cobbled together doesn't stand up to scrutiny. More scummy from 72offsuit for the piggybacking with no explanation, and mistakenly believing it was L-2, than Lucky with the poor explanation and lead proponent role.

[Battle Mage]

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

[Battle Mage]

If you're town and not scum trying to limit info or defend a buddy I'd suggest sharing those thoughts after Blopp responds.

They're still good thoughts but better left when we hear from the person intended to respond

insinuating Clark's defence of Blopp was scum-indicative!?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Blopp

Feel free to hammer, not that anybody would.

Its 00:25 at the moment. Sorry to be inconvenient but rest is needed sometimes.

An invitation to do so? Although not at all convinced Jam-scum is opening this bold.

By the way just before I go off, there are certain things I'll stand by as a matter of policy regardless of meta.

• Quickhammers are NAI, however quickhammers without explanation or warning are Scum Indicative.
• The pretext, something is so scummy, therefore I'm not scum, is highly scummy
• Wagoning is NAI
• I don't like going off of meta nor previous games
• I assume everybody is a good player regardless of experience

With all that send, let's have a good game.

Translation: Scumbuddy, if you quickhammer now, give an explanation or something, and I reckon I can get you off the hook tomorrow?

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily agree with any of the above - all depends on context and a more nuanced approach is essential.

[Battle Mage]

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post.

So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case.

In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

The part in bold was, of course, untrue. The 'case' on Blopp hadn't even been posted at the time of her final post. Can I believe that Lucky, as an SE player in a game of 3 pages had genuinely made that mistake?
On profile pic removal, no explanation here as to why that would be AI? I can't think why it would be.
And still pushing the slot after the inhabitant flakes out is probably mildly scummy given that the case wasn't anything to begin with - in other words, Lucky is less worried about getting a response from the player (despite earlier protestations) and more enthusiastic about running up the slot.

[Battle Mage]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Blopp solely because of Lucky's case, and Lucky himself as scum? eh...

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

This guy is town at least. Good to see you old friend!

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Interesting Lucky says here that a VT claim should be eliminated, then fake-claims PR himself later in day. (sorry for spoilers)

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

So I am going to address this after all. As Jam may recall, I can be somewhat of lush and tonight is no exception, but I'll try and keep my thoughts clear.

I do find activity on this site by a player which does not occur in the thread(s) in which they are playing to be scum-indicative. In other words, if you're here doing stuff (on Mafiascum) but not

posting in the game you're in

I find that suspicious. I hate to keep referencing my last game, but it's my only frame of reference. In my last game there was a player whose activity/behavior outside of our game thread was distinctly different than it was inside it. I voted for that player, the wagon got to L-1, and then the player was replaced. That slot ended up being scum.

Which brings up my next point, and I am just thinking out loud here. I think Lucky is correct in pushing this "angle". I think I disagree that a replacement be lynched unless they claim a PR. How can a replacement answer for another player who has barely posted? What information can be gleaned from that Lynch provided it doesn't turn up scum? Just a wagon exam?

I know: "here goes Clarkbar defending Blopp again". I disagree that I ever did, and I'm not doing so now.

I like the wagon well enough,

I just wonder about the virtue of that last bit regarding lynching a replacement unless there's a PR claim.

Since Lucky has made that the condition of a successful claim, couldn't any replacement (even town perhaps) make a PR claim? Thus forcing possible counter-claims?

This guy is probably town? Bold pings me though, as the first indication that Clark supports the wagon - previously had been main opponent of it. Not sure of scum motive for that - wanting to stick with crowd? But then why stand out in the first place?

Red is interesting foreshadowing of what Lucky does later. The fact that the scum motive for doing this was discussed in thread (possibility of forcing a counter-claim), makes it harder to buy that Lucky does this as naive-town rather than scum.

If you think the target of a wagon is scum, it doesn't matter that it's not fair to their replacement that they have to defend another player's actions. If scum fake claims TPR and gets CC'd, we still win the trade. Scum trading 1-for-1 is a losing trade for them.

Although clearly scum claiming TPR and getting CC'd is better than dying in vain right? Seems obvious Lucky is scum here, given how rest of day has panned out, but I want to finish catching up first. will continue tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

Independent Reads (not based on possible pairings)

Towniest town

TheThirteenthJT

Townclub on probation

ClarkBar

Switzerland

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamSV

Scummy nominee

72offsuit

Surefire scum

Raya36
LuckyLuciano

[Battle Mage]

I’m on mobile right now, so I can’t respond to some stuff. Raya/LL scumteam fascinates me though. They would have done quite a terrific distancing job were that the case...

Also, loving this sweet sweet BM posting. Will continue tomorrow? You just got started! What a tease.

I laughed harder at this than your description of yourself as "a bit lush"

I think an LL scum-flip should give an easy solve, although I haven't worked that through yet - will do that once I've experienced the whole game. Plenty of time left yet!

[Battle Mage]

Scummy nominee
72offsuit

I haven't the slightest clue what this means. It's a newbie - no one is getting a Nom for this game.

Ah sorry, it's just a readslist! I basically ordered people from most likely town to most likely scum, with rough tiers.

Rest assured, I don't actually think 72offsuit is getting a scummy for blindly sheeping Lucky and jerking the newbie.

[Battle Mage]

@Lucky, would you feel as suspect about other players who are actively on this site and not posting? I mean, I don't know what hand certain people are dealt, but sometimes I look at player posts. Clearly you do too. I'm sure you're positively flush with opinions on this. How AI do you consider it to be active on mafiascum and not posting in a select thread? Should that bluff always be called, or are there exceptions?

It depends heavily on context. I'm onsite often playing in multiple games. Sometimes I post in all of them actively. Sometimes I'm focused on one game because it's in a critical state. Sometimes I'm just taking a step back from a particular game to let the thread breathe and see what directions other players are looking to take the game in.

I think dipping the moment a non-RVS wagon starts up on you, despite posting after the wagon started (in other words, knowing that the wagon is there), is sketchy. I'm also confused as to how people don't read the deletion of her profile pic as

conceding

. She deliberately logged on to delete her profile pic. Not to post, not to lurk, but to

delete

her pic. She didn't replace it, she

deleted

it and left again. That seems to be as close as you can get to closing your account on this site. Does newbie town effectively delete their account when called scum?

Good question by Clark - newbies flaking completely is relatively NAI (it's too common as town and scum) compared to newbies lurking but staying in the game (surviving scum is winning scum).

Rebuttal here from Lucky is weak. Falsely asserts a "non-RVS" wagon had started before her final post - although possible from what I've seen later in game that Lucky-town could be conceited enough to think his original unexplained vote was non-RVS. Really beating a dead horse here with pushing the empty slot though. Nothing above to suggest Blopp's behaviour was AI (because it wasn't).

After Jam votes Lucky, language softens as highlighted (and a vintage 'honesty' tell):

A dichotomy would be correct, but not a false dichotomy.

It is a false dichotomy

my friend

. I took over 200 games on my old site and ran a statistical analysis on town winrate in terms of D1 post count per player. The result was a strong, statistically significant trend. Want to take a guess what the trend said?

You are entitled to keep throwing games as town. You do you

boo.

You seem to have missed the sample size, and the statistical significance of the results.

Gonna be real buddy

, you don't have my respect as long as you lose to players like Mikul, who has NK'd me N1 in 7 consecutive games when he's been mafia because he cannot beat town!Lucky as scum. For the record, I correctly solved that game almost immediately after D2 started. Go ask your mod how accurate the PMs were. <3

I have 2 bags. Both bags look very similar. Inside both bags are

balls

.

Sick burn from Jam.

Less keen on the progression below from Raya. Moves from targetting town to probable scum, only after momentum has shifted in this direction. Easily compatible as a partner for Lucky who decided to start distancing now they are under pressure. Red is gross - despite previously backing the case on Blopp, now backtracks and says the case is weak, but notes (with a hint of regret?) clumsily that if the case was stronger she could move back onto it:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete.

I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Honestly though:

1. Are you a straightforward player or like to do a lot of private analysis?
2. How upset would you be if you are lynched Day 1 from a scale of 1-10? 10 being highly upset.

1. I think I'm somewhere in the middle. Anything I think is important enough to say I will post about. I like to comment any major thoughts i have on posts. Sometimes I will keep a read secret to get more reactions etc out of someone but that's not common for me. And often I'll have reads I don't comment on because they're on the weaker side but that's probably true for everyone. I'm definitely more on the straightforward side though.

2. 3? I want to play obviously but I wouldn't be very upset D1 mostly because I'm not that invested yet.

This is just curiosity, I'm not suspicious but, would I be right to assume if you're quiet with reads you're likely suspicious of somebody but want more concrete evidence? - Just to be safe for later on in the game

Honestly

if I'm quiet with reads I'm probably just tired or something. If I'm suspicious of somebody and want more evidence I'll likely be questioning them without giving a read on them but I'd still be vocal about other reads.

Remainder of pages 4 and 5:

Homura defence of Blopp reads as town - draws on his personal meta, but surely easier for scum to go with Lucky here than to challenge him. Seems a bit strong for scum distancing, unless they really didn't like each other.

Jam oozing towniness, and the wisdom of having played with BM before. He learnt all those fallacies from me

Onto page 6. I'm probably gonna have to comment on less stuff otherwise I'll never catch up...

[Battle Mage]

72, what's your reasoning behind your vote on Blopp?

23
Wild conspiracy theory because I want to put it out there. My first prediction: Lucky / 72 Scum pair. Dun dun dun.

Never like to see this, after what happened with TTJT and me, being outted as masons on Day 1 by over-zealous town.

Hmm. Well this is only my second game, and my first one was out of RVS and humming along pretty quickly. So... not sure if there are any other good strategies to break the ice a little.

I'm so glad you asked!
There is a fantastic scumhunting tool called RQS (that's Random Question Stage to the uninitiated).
I do not proclaim to have devised this foolproof tool.

1. What is your experience in mafia outside of mafiascum?
2. Do you prefer playing as town or scum?
3. What do you think of lynching lurkers?
4. What do you think of lynching liars?

1. This is my first forum game but I have played mafia (or werewolf) a few times at parties live (or IRL as the cool kids say it).
2. I haven't played enough to say if I have a preference yet but town was fun when I played with my friends. One of my friends has a really bad poker face so it was fairly easy to see that she was lying to us. I had an "Aha!" moment.
3. I would say not good. Sometimes someone is shy but innocent. I think I'd rather try to hear their thought process first.
4. I'd say good?

What about you @72offsuit?

1. Played about 6-8 games on here. Have played fast-paced browser mafia on epicmafia prior to that.
2. Town. I enjoy the deduction aspect of town. Mafia is stressful and requires effort.
3. Depends. Lurking alone is usually NAI. Active lurking, lurking at critical times is scummy or flat out useless.
4. Yes.

A bit surprised 72offsuit bowed to the pressure and answered these. "Mafia is stressful and requires effort" - not much effort shown so far, although that's about to change...

UNVOTE: 72
VOTE: Blopp

Why the change of vote?
Same question for 72

23 - dat smiley face --- bad overly friendly/buddy-buddy vibe.
LAMIST - "Lets move out of RVS" with 0 game-related content

Misuse of LAMIST. I can buy from 72-town.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

Eh, maybe.

So then. Let us do some nitpicking, it's all issues with the process. Experience is NAI. Preferance of play is NAI. Lurker interpretations are NAI. Lying is hard to identify as lying rather than a mistake, similarly, also NAI. However, refusing to answer a question, while NAI, it certainly doesn't look great for town. Address this please, or respond to Blopp. Its difficult to identify a lier so the closest thing one can do is to vote for a hypocrite.

I deliberately didn;t answer to bait someone into asking this. I was always going to answer them.

What's the

purpose

of the bait?

I deliberately didn;t answer to bait someone into asking this. I was always going to answer them.

Well then, Mr Sherlock, you've successfully "baited" me into asking it. So do explain what it would not mean, now that I have been "baited". Does it make me a scum lean? A scum read? A town lean? A town read? Do be creative with your explanation. I'm not as smart as Watson unfortunately. It seems (is) as if, you don't have an explanation or a strand of logic to deal with my queries, and have gone into 5D chess level tactics claiming I was "baited", when in fact you were just being hypocritical.

Slightly +town for asking.
I'm not always going to get a perfectly alignment-indicative answer, but its always worth a try.

What does !scumMe gain from not answering?

That's true though. Gut townlean on 72 at this stage, I think. Although the above was essentially nothing more than low effort bolstering of the post count.

[...]
I insist you focus on behavior that is actually alignment indicative. Somebody telling you that you are wrong is not alignment indicative. You need to look more into

why

players take the stances that they do.

again, Lucky returns with sole focus of trying to persuade Jam he's town. Change in tone continues - have now transitioned from abrasive buddying, to more of a pleading/protesting style.

[Battle Mage]

start of page 7, Lucky gives up on stagnant Blopp wagon, and searches for other targets. In particular, bold pings me. Appeals to the wider group like "you guys", "everyone" are a scumtell in my experience. The tone has completely changed by this point.

@JamSV, why did you put Blopp at L-1 and proceed to tell players to feel free to hammer and state that you see quickhammers as NAI?

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

LAMIST. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote... lol. Feels like a forced post.

-0.5 Gangrenous Limb

Have I told you that I still hate when you assign scumpoints like this?

What's everyone's thoughts

on how Homura positioned herself while JamSV and I were arguing last night?

[Battle Mage]

Independent Reads (not based on possible pairings)

Town

TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
ClarkBar
Looker

To be determined

Lickety Quickety
72offsuit

Scum

Raya36
LuckyLuciano

My townbloc is strong, so should be able to move faster now!

[Battle Mage]

Not necessarily. I'll take a look at all the associations with that player and decide from there. I don't think one of you and Blopp HAVE to be scum. I just scumread both of you, associations aside.

Spoiler:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

If one of Blopp or I is eliminated, and flips town, do you intend to eliminate the other player tomorrow?

That's in response to this

This gives me bad vibes.

And Wtmoo was that open from LQ?

Onto Page 8!

[Battle Mage]

BM, you're confident that Raya and LL would go through such lengths in order to distance?

I haven't fully thought through the relationships yet, and I'm not even halfway through the game! But I haven't seen great distancing between the two yet - have I missed something?

[Battle Mage]

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

I broadly agree with this take.

So I'm not super into this game yet so I'm gonna make a readslist to orient myself.

Town:

JamSV - Town, tonal/reasoning, 56 was bad town play imo. Scum wouldn't be so obvious if this was an attempt at a quick hammer though I think.

ClarkBar - I think Clark is overeager town on a reread. This is consistent with their RVS play. I no longer find defending Blopp to be scummy since the eagerness is consistent. His responses to my questioning about this sounds genuine too.

Homura - Townlean, I like the stance taken on Lucky and it's very similar thoughts to my own.

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Null:

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to hear more.

72offsuit - Null. I actually scumread RQS a bit (but very weakly), I don't find it works or does any good and responses tend to lead only to unrelated debate. It muddies the thread. Also why start RQS then refuse to answer and say it won't help find alignment? What is your read on Lucky?

Blopp - Scumlean/null for lack of content. I want to hear from her or a replacement.

Scum:

LuckyLuciano - Scum, didn't remove vote at L-1, reachy case on Blopp (had a greeting in their first post, LAMIST post (23) but I heavily disagree. How is 23 any different than the RQS questions and how could she be using it to try to look town or helpful?, saying that they came online to remove their profile pic but didn't post so must be given up scum). It seems like he's trying to make a case out of nothing. It also seems like he's trying to set up a lynch to for sure be Blopp (stating that if he gets replaced and they claim VT he'll push for their lynch, not seeming particularly interested in hearing from the replacement). It's always best to hear from the replacement of a sus player. I don't like the statistics analysis too. Usually when I see stuff like this I take it as busy work. It's not a strong case, there's lots of variables, it muddied up the thread and made the game less readable for me at least. A question for you Lucky, why can't newbtown get frustrated and quit when a wagon is formed on them? Why must Blopp be scum for this?

A good readslist. Smart town or informed scum? Only 1 scumread though, and largest wagon at this point, so not going out on much of a limb. Although she hasn't given herself much room for manoerve either. Gut feeling still Raya-scum, has felt awkwardly out of step with rest of the play to this point.

@JamSV, why did you put Blopp at L-1 and proceed to tell players to feel free to hammer and state that you see quickhammers as NAI?

A quickhammer can be seen as NAI as it could just be a really bad misunderstanding leading to a bad play. Which is why I believe a quickhammer without an explanation is scum indicative, but one with (on its own) is NAI.

I put him on L-1 to see how he would react. Nobody would express intent to hammer so my proceeding post was to in force that a extra bit of pressure. I have faith nobody would come in and swoop to quick hammer, considering we had all already posted (excluding Echovision), and we could all easily see how close he is to getting hammered. I will admit, I really didn't expect him to "leave" if we can class that as what he is doing. Plus that type of play is good for moving more out of the RVS, and it can apply simple pressure to see just how easily somebody would actually fold.

- If you were wondering if I have a bit too much faith in people, I probably do.

Quick hammers are a difficult subject to assess. In my first game I delivered a naked quickhammer as town. I was a town mason and we had our reasons for it. In the end all quickhammers have reasons even if not explained and do follow an agenda so they are touchy subjects for me. No we maybe a quickhammers earlier in the day umpromted may be a case for scum but have not encountered that situation yet. Most come towards the end of the day phase.

Now I do find it interesting you placed Blopp at e-1 and didn't really get called out much for it. Instead Raya unvoted and Luciano got scumleaned for not doing do as well. I don't believe you had I'll intentions and neither did Luciano. Raya comes away again as most suspicious and a bit LAMIST for his unvote.

That's a very good point about Raya not calling out Jam - I missed that one! Would Raya have been tunnelling her partner this early? Although a scumlean is only a warning shot I guess...

And you're preaching to the converted on quickhammers!

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

Don't like this in isolation, and had a similar comment towards Lucky earlier. Comes across as if the cases would be artificial rather than legitimate (i'll only commit to a scumread once I think my case will stand up to scrutiny). Unlikely Raya-72 scumpair?

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Yes partially. I was also suggesting that scum are the only ones that truly know everyone's alignment. So Clark is an interesting read for me and would like to expand on this later. He actually failed a test earlier and it looks bad for him but his play has indicated town for me. I will be keeping a good look at him throughout the game but it's currently Not enough for me to keep my vote on him currently.

So after my reread my vote will most comfortably be here

UNVOTE: clark
VOTE: raya36

I'm interested in what this failed test is

me too. Hey TTJT - what was the test?

[Battle Mage]

Let’s go at this in another way. What are your current thoughts on the counterwagons?

How your slot flips will inform a lot of my thinking. I suspect

72

69 due to his position on LL's dick,

Okay, right, so, I suspect there is a typo in that last sentence, but, no idea.

Solved

[Battle Mage]

So I'm caught up reading. Clark case coming up. At this point it's a toss up for me between clark, Raya and Porkens.

Raya I've stated my early reasons and recent game hasn't been helping for me. Ill go in more detail soon

Clarkbarr has really flagged me recently. Full case coming soon as well so don't end the day.

And Porkens unfortunately for them, would tells us so much about the game.

I want quicks stance asap on Porkens. No hammer without a final claim Or I policy tomorrow.

dude if i dont catch up before the day ends, I'm done.

[Battle Mage]

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to

hear more

.

Hear away:

Hm not bad. This earns a townlean

Spoiler: I will fail you

Hints at being scum. Scum points. Raya gives this townpoints. Scum points for her too.

LQ's play early in the game - high posting, entertaining but not really saying anything, reads scummy. Not sure what partner would fit though? Raya/Lucky might suggest he's trying to distract from the existing pressure. Anyone else might suggest he's just happily lurking in plain sight.

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

See this is why I think we should wait for a replacement for her overall, I think we should give the replacement the benefit of doubt for a while after they replace in, give them a few posts to understand their town, and the intonations and such of that new player will help us work out which one it was.

Ah, thanks man. I love you too! <3

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

Spoiler: She disliked you overall

The avatar removal just feels like an account deactivation. Seems like she decided forum mafia wasnt her cup of tea.
Question is, what it due to !scumher having to explain her way out of a hole, or just disliking the game overall.

See this is why I think we should wait for a replacement for her overall, I think we should give the replacement the benefit of doubt for a while after they replace in, give them a few posts to understand their town, and the intonations and such of that new player will help us work out which one it was.

In the mean time I suggest looking at the interactions around this. Raya and Homura and have struck out the most for me.

Also hypothetical question. If someone comes into the game and says they are scum and leaves. Does it matter what the replacement says? Do we give them the benefit of the doubt. I know you don't think the flake is scum indicative, I am starting to feel it's to closest thing possible a scum tell. At this point when the replacement comes in and catches up, gives us summaries of what they think, I would suggest putting them on L-1 with intent.

...Jesus Christ! You're planning to put me at L-1 with intent?

[Battle Mage]

And why has no one really said a single word about my case on 72/LL?

LL/LQ maybe? based on page 11. LQ comes in and lays a mysterious trail of hints from other games, which he later explains was sowing the seeds of suspicion against Lucky. Lucky was already top wagon when LQ replaced in. They obviously have history. Wouldn't surprise me if LQ came in and bussed remorselessly (albeit he actually gave himself a bit of leeway with the early posting).

Keep in mind the reason that LL wants Blopp out of the game is the exact reason I wanted Gorge Bailey out of the the game but in that game LL unvotes GB because they don't want to end the day that early.

interesting meta.

[Battle Mage]

BM, you're confident that Raya and LL would go through such lengths in order to distance?

I'm on page 12 now. It's a fair question. The distancing was mostly from Raya towards LL, which was consistent with the fact that LL was closest to being executed. So yes, I could see them as the team, although it's not a lock. Probably at this stage I'm still flipping Pork as the most likely, although could probably compromise with Raya, as long as Pork went tomorrow. Although compromising on the Day 1 elim cost me my last newbie game, so maybe I shouldn't.

[Battle Mage]

Blopp (2): LuckyLuciano, 72offsuit

Also, this pretty much implicates 72 as well given 72 was the person who said LL tries to end the day early/doesn't like long days which I have proven that 72 knows this is not necessarily true.

Or you're setting up 72 as a mislynch tomorrow when you've bussed Lucky-scum?

My reasons for NOT voting LL have diminished, so I would totally go back there. But let's see how people react to what happened before I get ahead of myself.

Appealing to the people, yuck.

Here's the claim and follow-up:

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

I'm not going to argue with you. Random nonsensical 1v1s are what you masturbate to. If the rest of the players in the game agree on eliminating a claimed TPR D1, so be it.

I'm not masons with 72o. I am not giving any more info about my role claim just to help mafia solve the setup. My slots self-resolves at this point. Either it becomes blatantly obvious I'm lying as the game goes on, or I'm telling the truth.

As TTJT can attest, I'm the last person to advocate for Lynch all Liars (unlike 72o - to note). However, when town lies, they have to have a good reason. Preferably one which is somewhat defensible. Above, it seems like the only motive for Lucky fakeclaiming TPR is to avoid being executed. In doing so, he noted himself earlier in the game that this would potentially out the real town PRs and would be a consolation prize for scum on the ropes. No likey no lighty so far.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

See this is an issue now, I don't like playing with Battle Mage, I feel like he's too important as asset for town as scum and town, which is just a huge pain.

is that a compliment? <3

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

well i fricking jinxed it here, didn't I Jam?

[Battle Mage]

TheThirteenthJT - are you town too? who is scum here?

If not you than it's Clark and/or Raya. For Clark look at rqs and you will see why, for Raya I have a case. Homura would be most likely partner for Raya. Quick summary of my cases. Not home yet.

That's helpful thanks dude, I've got one of those.

Amusingly, the one I had was Clark pre-re-read!

Hi BM!

Again I want to say how sorry I am for letting myself almost get replaced. I was whiny in the beginning of the game about the slow place, and so of course it would be me to then contribute to the problem. I work on weekends, and with the holiday and some other life stuff I got completely wrecked. I do virtually nothing during the week, so my posting will be a lot more consistent.

I'll say this regarding much of what I've read in the last few pages: I am not going to go read a past game to see how players behaved in it. I have said (and still believe) that behavior/activity levels being different in one game to another is something I think is noteworthy and could be AI. So I'm not dismissing that as a reasonable motive to vote for somebody. But, unless something very clear is brought to my attention then I don't think I'm going to hop on a wagon because of meta.

I don't have a problem with LL's reasoning for voting Blopp even if it is kind of a reach. I can follow the reasoning and don't necessarily disagree. I do fear quick hammers, but that fear shouldn't stop a player from having some L-1 pressure. I also buy LL's claim for now. I feel uncomfortable giving town-reads, but LL is a town lean for me.

My vote on Homura stands and I guess we'll see if there is a replacement or if Homura returns. Obviously I can't point any fingers regarding activity levels, but it's the lack of trying to engage other players in a meaningful way that bothers me. Half-heartedly sharing opinions and having only one vote that was in the RVS and not even a random reason given bugs me.

I'll keep looking at stuff and see if I can't get some questions goings. I'm also happy to answer any questions, in fact that might help me in figuring out my own feelings on some things.

So you believe LLs claim but he is only a town lean?

And I agree on your Homura point but it's not strong enough for it to be my leading case. Could you ISo Raya and let me know how you feel about them.

This is a for fun question and part of my experimental ways of playing.(I know we are out of rqs and wifom and not aftual scumhunting blah blah blah. Just let me be me.) If you were town who is your scum team at this point, and if you were mafia who would your partner be? Please answer both sides and just have fun with the answers. I don't have any day to back anything up but I have theories so this will help me improve as a player. Anyone else is free to answer this as well.

I can't remember if I answered this already.

My balls to the wall pick would be Quick-Pork. Although could see Raya in there. Definitely 1-2 scum in that trio.

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

[Battle Mage]

I went back to analyze the Blopp flake and it's so bizarre. I can see newbie players leaving for a bit and returning to see 4 votes on then as a bit overwhelming but I felt the pressure up to the point they removed their avatar was not that high. I've seen (and done so myself) people drilled early game as newbies which would cause enough frustration for a rage quit. This early wagon was rather tame. But at the same time why return at all to remove your avatar? Clearly no intention of returning and thus rage quit possibility over just not returning/forgetting about the site.

So here's the final scenario I have in my head. Blopp comes back because they remember they are in a mafia game, see 4 votes on them, says screw this, removes avatar and leaves forever.

Ok but this same reaction can come from town too.. It's not scum indicative.. It's NAI

And thus why I didn't join the Blopp wagon. I was giving the benefit of the doubt but at the same time understanding why someone would push it. I felt I had bigger fish to fry over the Blopp and Luciano case and had said I wouldn't really weigh in and focus elsewhere until a replacement came in.

Similarly now that BM has replaced in I want to see were Luciano goes from there.

My guess is scum are not particularly enamoured with me coming into this slot

Players who push the game forward and generate AI content don't die D1.

Spoiler: Nothing like a good old fashioned meme for this occasion

Is my point getting across? Is LL Town because of their claim? Honest question.

I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Why should I believe you wouldn't say this as Scum?

an honest question huh?

[Battle Mage]

By the way, does anybody think with good odds LL is a mason? If not then we can narrow down the game a bunch.

I gave my mason solve for LL already. If not with 72 I think it's a fools errand to try and speculate more than that.

I more meant with good odds, ie, do you think its actually likely?

Not unless LL is lying about being masons with 72. I don't know how I feel about LL/72 as masons, but that is why I think 72 is actually Scummier than LL.

This fits nicely with my LL-LQ solve.

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

This is what we needed!

Sarcastic?

214 Well you have BM in that slot now, so good fucking luck not getting information out of that guy.

LOL

Page 17 - nearly up to speed, think I will finish off tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

I think I will just lay about and not do much till F3 when I can hammer BM if that's okay with everyone.

Not to endorse that approach, but statistically town has a 100% winrate in games where I get mis-executed.

Not sure you'll be around long enough to pull that trigger though?

[Battle Mage]

Page 17 - nearly up to speed, think I will finish off tomorrow.

But you're so close...

It's midnight dude, i need some dinner

[Battle Mage]

This fits nicely with my LL-LQ solve.

Just what kind of backwards ass country do you come from where w/w play like this?

what's your point?

[Battle Mage]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

I'm crying! Don't blame me, I said to eliminate Mikul on Day 1!!

[Battle Mage]

331 P14
452 P19

I do not believe BW was ignorant of recent events. I know pretty much zero players who don't keep up with the new stuff in their catching up. It's going to be a hard sell to get me off BM, but he's counting on lynching me anyways, so we'll see.

BW is me?

I'm not ignorant of recent events insofar as I know about the fakeclaim - I've said this of course. But I'm reading through in order to understand and give my thoughts on things in the order they transpired, as far as possible.

Are you voting for me currently? And you're insinuating I'm feigning ignorance of current events with my catch-up style? Eh, not a fan of that.

[Battle Mage]

This fits nicely with my LL-LQ solve.

Just what kind of backwards ass country do you come from where w/w play like this?

what's your point?

Mistake.

You ARE keeping up with current events. Not sure how you can wiggle out of your LL/LQ solve now.

If this is an attempt to shade me, it's weak, as per my previous post.

Regards my LL-LQ solve, I've been in the same spot as you before - scum with someone you clash with personally, and who is simultaneously kamikaze and can't hold it together. I did exactly what you're doing: Bus as much as possible without actually playing against my wincon.

[Battle Mage]

Eh, not a fan of that.

I don't need fans to be this good.

VOTE: BM

To be clear, this is purely because I pegged you as scum?

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage replaces Blopp.

See this is an issue now, I don't like playing with Battle Mage, I feel like he's too important as asset for town as scum and town, which is just a huge pain.

is that a compliment? <3

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

No pressure, but if you don't eliminate scum today, I'm eliminating you tomorrow

you'd better sheep me today then!

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Not sure if this was discussed yet but if you have a tpr you need to claim the exact role. That's why we have a matrix setup. So we can confirm/deny it was a cc

No....

Noone has claimed intent to hammer. Why would we get an exact role claim?

since when was claiming "unspecified town PR" a thing?

Idk y i thought BM posted that. The point still stands, I don;t see why that is town "good thinking"

take the blinkers off

I don't see how PR speculation helps town at all.
Its just a matter of do you believe !TownPR-LL claims in that spot or not within the current gamestate. Nothing about the claim seemed fake to me.

this didn't age well

I don't see how PR speculation helps town at all.
Its just a matter of do you believe !TownPR-LL claims in that spot or not within the current gamestate. Nothing about the claim seemed fake to me.

I don't believe the claim. A TPR wouldn't claim so quick. And Lucky says he has experience in newbie games. He wouldn't claim the second he was put at E-1 without any intent. Its like he was waiting for that

obviously some townie cred for Raya here.

[Battle Mage]

I'm almost done with my wallpost. The short version is that I know I'm town, so I know that his perspective's matching mine WRT Blopp and Raya means he's likely got a townie starting point with his read to the game. I know that's not useful to you, but I'm also going to advocate you eliminate my slot, at which point you should see that 72o's obvtown.

He didn't just sheep me either, he gave independent original thoughts that shared my perspective of the game.

This wasn't exactly true. 72 had 2 thoughts on the Blopp wagon - one was parroting the logically flawed LAMIST argument from Lucky, and the other was something about not liking a smiley face.

Not clear how Lucky-town implies 72-town, but Lucky-scum making this argument further suggests 72-town (too much association).

[Battle Mage]

Eh, not a fan of that.

I don't need fans to be this good.

VOTE: BM

To be clear, this is purely because I pegged you as scum?

What do you think? How bad at Scum do you actually think I am

here

?

Is that a "I'm too scummy to be scum" defense? It's not a personal thing - I haven't implied you're a bad player, and I think you've done exactly what I would have done in your situation in your interactions towards Lucky. Ironically, you've essentially mimicked his play towards my predecessor here. Speaking of "here", interesting you use that word above. Possible slip?

[Battle Mage]

I'll go from page 19, and the big reveal tomorrow!

[Battle Mage]

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

preach brother! I'll be back with a vengeance tonight.

[Battle Mage]

Ok Lucky reveal. Jam basically covers it later that this would be monumentally dumb play for town in the event there were masons because they would either outright counter-claim, or just continue to attack Lucky. So I don't buy the argument that if Lucky was town, people attacking the TPR claim are necessarily scummy at all - also because, it's just an unusual limb for scum to go out on. Moreover, this is actually the self-described reason for his claim, as well as because he thought Lick's arrival meant his goose would be cooked. In terms of partners, less likely to be 72o or TTJT based on the order.

This reveal shortly followed my arrival, although the Blopp momentum had largely subsided by then, as well as some pressure from Quick. But not sure on timing of reveal. Perhaps it didn't make him as obvtown as he hoped, because the wagon on him didn't go away (Quick left, not sure who else?). Could be pressure from scumbuddy, or guilty at replacing out and giving successor a difficult choice. Equally, would make sense to do this if he was town and had just fakeclaimed for shits and giggles. But I can't buy him pulling the fakeclaim in the first place for no good reason, as an allegedly experienced player with 40 newbie games under his belt.

I am going to give my thoughts and bounce. Let's start with the bomb I have to drop. I retract my TPR claim. I'm going to wager that my slot ends up getting eliminated today, so go ahead and do it before the replacement comes in and has to unfairly defend a fake claim they didn't make. After miskicking my slot town is down to 5v2, so they have 1 more free miskick before having to eliminate 2 mafia in order to win. My goal here is to give an elimination pool of 3 players, and hopefully get both scum correct so that town can just sheep this post after they know my slot is town and win the game. This is probably going to be lower effort than it should be, because aside from 72o and Thirteen, this town really doesn't deserve to win. I'm only doing this because it's unfair not to obvtown a little bit before replacing out and possibly putting someone into the position of defending a fake claim they didn't make. With that said, I'm going to give my reads as a list but instead of explaining them individually I'm going to just give a wall analysis of the gamestate and how individual players fit in at the end.

Lucky

72o

Thirteen

Looker

Quick

JamSV

Clark

BM

Raya

I fake claimed because once Quick replaced in I realized he was going to hard push my slot continually throughout the game because he has an obsession with me, and wanted to either delay my elimination today and soak up a mafia NK or RB in setup A, or get eliminated anyway and make mafia obvscum in their efforts to push a claimed TPR. I'm pretty sure I've done the latter well enough.

72o and Thirteen have shared a lot of my thoughts this game. I've held back on openly quoting either of them and agreeing with them because this game has been very straightforward up until bad!town sheeped Raya's counterpush from the Blopp slot onto me. They both have very town mindsets that can be easily traced in their ISOs. 72o has been seeing the game exactly as I have WRT Blopp / Raya. They also treated a TPR claim on a town-read exactly as one should. If people wanted to push my slot for the blanket TPR claim then their play should have continued along the lines of "Lucky's still scummy for the reasons that he was scummy before, therefore he's still scummy now." Instead, the push warped into, "TPR always needs to full claim." Think about this from both perspectives. Mafia has no reason to believe I'm lying about my claim, so they know that I'm not going to get eliminated if I full claim. What they want to know is the setup. Once one TPR full claims, mafia knows what setup we're in. That's Raya's angle, and that's why JamSV's play is so disgustingly bad, because he's doing the legwork

for the mafia

. One they know the setup, they know whether or not the TPR is a safe kill, or in case of column A if they should roleblock the TPR.

I'm willing to put JamSV as town despite his active effort to help mafia win by sorting the setup for them and pushing a TPR claim because (1) I think his desire to eliminate my slot is largely confbiased from a disdain he has towards me from our earlier discussions. Mafia is more open to the idea that people angle for specific reasons and are less able to fake a confbias tunnel. (2) He wants to make up for throwing the last game and is trying to solve the game himself in order to make up for it. He's got a stats background and is the sort of player who finds it more comfortable to understand the bare mechanics of the game than player behavior. It makes sense for a player with his background to want to solve using the matrix rather than by developing their capacity to read behavior and motivation.

The Homura (Looker) and Quick slots I have less to go on, but their positioning relative to gamestate lets them be town. If NK's or investigations intervene with the PoE I provide and you find yourselves with an extra elimination, re-evaluate these slots first. I questioned Homura's positioning WRT my earlier argument with JamSV, but that was more to generate discussion on new topics than to throw shade at Homura. I feel that Homura's positioning is completely normal for someone who (1) doesn't understand the stats argument and, (2) is still salty at being universally townread all game only to have me redirect a wagon from town!me to scum!her, indicating the first point in 3 day phases she received a single scum read, and getting her eliminated literally minutes before the day phase expired in our past game together. I deduce that she's still salty based on one of the comments she made this game. Also, don't hold Quick pushing the three most town players in the game (72o, Thirteen, and myself) against him. That's literally his MO, self-destructing the town as town.

I'm still sold on the BM slot being scum. Sorry BM, you've been dealt a bad hand. People can deny newbie tells as legitimate, but they still work. The only reason he's not a solid

red

is because of the possibilities of angles Raya has taken. I feel that Raya has to act the way she has if Blopp is scum, because she can't win the game alone once Blopp is eliminated. I didn't immediately switch from Blopp to Raya when posting my analysis on her slot because I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but her continued pushing in bad faith, her constant attempts to buddy half the player list, and some of 72o's points on her slot have convinced me she's 100% scum. If Blopp (BM) is scum, Raya is

always

scum. The only case where Raya is scum and blopp (BM) is not is one where Raya took an incredibly aggressive position of hard defending town!Blopp while chainsaw pushing me in hopes of chain eliminating which ever one of us doesn't get eliminated D1. In that case, Clark is positioned with the highest partner equity for Raya. I decide this because of their early interactions with Raya and their latest ISO of Raya where Raya magically becomes town at the end of it. I think it's more likely that Clark is just new and still learning than that they are scumbuddies with Raya. I think newbie scum might be more likely to join their scumbuddy in pushing me. Maybe Clark should be higher up on the list of townies, I think he's only this low because in the small case where Raya is playing super aggressively and wasn't forced to by a newbie partner getting caught and bailing, she'd need a scumbuddy that's not Blopp (BM). Anyway, it's pretty much always Blopp (BM) / Raya.

@Everyone, JT is right in 442 and 443. I actually didn't realize that I was still in queue when I received a role pm for this game and probably should have declined it, but decided to play anyway when I was dealing with some prolonged annoyances IRL and I let that seep into my discourse this game. I'd like to apologize to anyone I've personally attacked this game, especially the newbies. There's no need for bitterness in mafia, especially in newbie games.

@Mod, I'm out.

[Battle Mage]

Clarkbar - a couple bits in your readslist below.

There seems to be quite a bit about LicketyQuickety's play you don't understand, but have you asked him about it? if not, why not?
In particular, I agree the "unvote" in light of LL's fakeclaim looked weird (I may come back to this sequence), and don't see from your own description how you've got him as null/town here.

You also note you find some of my play confusing - can you elaborate? Calling me out for not contributing much, 1 day after I joined, a bit harsh! In contrast to your Quick read, you view my slot with suspicion, although not clear from your analysis why that is the case?

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Quick creeping up to Clark below - strikes a bit of a contrast to his play up to this point. Defends LL on the basis that someone could replace in and undo everything that had happened - weak mafia play, but not AI. The implication that this is scummy/bad from Clark doesn't sit well though "that's a bit of a concern" sounds like a warning.

@Clark,

That's a good post and I think you have things pretty well mapped out. I also find you gave a fair and balanced look at each player though I'm not convinced that means you are Town.

My one concern is that you want to flip LL before seeing who replaces that slot. That's a bit of a concern but not a huge one. Other than that, I think if you keep playing you could be a fine player and have already shown you have the analytical capabilities to be a pretty good Town player even if you are Scum here.

[Battle Mage]

I’m on mobile right now, so I can’t respond to some stuff. Raya/LL scumteam fascinates me though. They would have done quite a terrific distancing job were that the case...

Also, loving this sweet sweet BM posting. Will continue tomorrow? You just got started! What a tease.

I laughed harder at this than your description of yourself as "a bit lush"

I think an LL scum-flip should give an easy solve, although I haven't worked that through yet - will do that once I've experienced the whole game. Plenty of time left yet!

Why is the "easy" route out the best one?

Inane question, but I'll bite. Easy solve means easy town-win. From recollection, none of our past games together have ended in a townwin.
Occam's razor means much more likely Lucky is scum than town.

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

No buys - scum more likely to shill loads of townreads. And I was only a few pages into the game at that point.

72, does BM’s posting make you reconsider the Blopp wagon as garbage?

In what way? BM is scummy.

Why?

Raya's 428 is the scummiest post in this game. Please everyone take the time to follow this exchange.

dude no.

Ever heard of too-good-to-be-true?

Sometimes a good thing is just a good thing.

Why are you answering what I'm directing at BM?

Because I have an opinion.

That's fine. It'd nice if you held of until BM answered though.

you actually wanted me to answer that?

Looker
LicketyQuickety
JamS

Only 2 town-reads when from !town BM's PoV there are 7 other town?
Yeah nah. Scummy reads list.

Agree. Didn't like his long silence either but that might now be AI. Just felt they could have posted earlier if they wanted.

Why is everyone TRing 13 so hard?

Weak shade, piggybacking 72o. Long silence is quite a stretch! I was posting heavy content from like 1 day after I joined, and even before that I definitely wasn't silent.

Worried about TTJT being universally townread - one mislynch off the table.

[Battle Mage]

72, did you read my summation of my feelings about you? Why were you on a wagon for a player and then later say the wagon was garbage? I need more from you regarding your read on Raya. Why do you consistently apologize for LL? Seems to me you find LL to be totally town, so how can you simultaneously dislike the Blopp wagon and yet find BM scummy and the LL slot town?

What prompted you to ask this question?

Because you've stated your disdain for the Blopp wagon despite being briefly on it and dismissing criticisms of its primary architect. BM is in that slot now, and BM is scummy to you. What impact does this have for you in terms of the Blopp wagon?


428 is the scummiest post of the game? Do tell! I'm a big dummy and can miss the obvious.

No i didn;t recall any particular summation or any outstanding questions. Please post the post number. It's hard enough following the thread without links or a number. If its something you really want answered or responded to, the easier you make it, the more likely someone will do it.

It's the scummiest post, because not many people have actually come out and said they believed LL's claim was real, despite raya saying
"So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim"

Why didn;t raya just direct that towards me?
It gives me the impresssion raya knows I;m town and has extrapolated my view onto "town" in general.

The fact raya disappeared, after I challenged her, is pretty telling in its own right.

I really like this. I mean, I think you're wrong, but it definitely seems like you might be eligible to join the BM School of Scumhunting.

This is the scumteam:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Blopp

For having the word Townie as a title as fake town.

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

THANK YOU NEXT!

dude no...

Spoiler:

I've been reticent in giving reads because I fear that giving even mild town-reads will influence my own perspective whether I'm conscious of it or not. However I have observed more experienced players do so regularly, so maybe my thinking on that is wrong. Also, this exercise may prove valuable for me. There might be some repetitive stuff here, and sorry for the wall of text. Let me start with where my vote is...

Homura/Looker:

Not a huge fan of not giving a reason, even a random one, for the vote on LL. I don't have an issue with not liking LL's Blopp ART, but there is a bit of a misrepresentation by Homura that LL's push on Blopp comes only from that angle. In my last game I disregarded a player that just posted opinions and was reactive instead of proactive and I got burned by doing so. I saw similar behavior from Homura and wanted to engage with her more. As it turns out she may just not have had any interest in the game whatsoever. There is replacement and I'm eager to hear their thoughts. At the moment there is no good reason for my vote to be where it is.

UNVOTE: Homura/Looker

And in no particular order...

Blopp/Battle Mage:

LL seems to feel that first-time scum will give a greeting in their first post, but I don't know the merit of that argument. Ultimately there are three posts that are pretty much fluff. I think 23 was just an attempt to get conversation going. 29 isn't that exciting to me either, but I may be missing something big about RQS. So now we get to the ART issue. I don't think it's as reachy as some others do, but it also wasn't near enough for me to join the wagon. Now we have Battle Mage in the slot. BM was in my first game and I liked playing with him. So far this game he hasn't contributed much, and I'm a little confused by his last few posts. I have no read on him yet. The slot itself I do look at with some suspicion.

TheThirteenthJT:

Wants an early wagon on me, which is fine. I don't know how anyone would read 52 seriously, but nothing wrong with kicking the tires. Seems to share my opinion on LL's push on Blopp. This is where issues with Raya pop up. 13JT feels that Raya moving her vote onto LL is a result of pressure by him and the reasons are forced. 13JT brings up how it is interesting that Jam put Blopp at E-1 and isn't getting called out for it. I shared this same concern in my ISO of Raya. 13JT continues to criticize Raya's criticism of LL's criticism of Blopp. Again, it appears 13JT and I are on the same page regarding the quality of the case on Blopp. And it's true, that has been the wagon that has generated the most discussion. The thought of a Raya/Homura scum team is welcomed by 13JT and he moves his vote over to Raya. Says I failed a test (for the love of God I can't wait to find out how). 13JT then comes back to the ART and puts more stock into it. This is a little odd to come back to something already discussed and have such a stronger opinion about it, but I can see that happening with rereads. It's likely to happen to me. What is strange is to then say that the Blopp wagon has scum outside of Jam. Not sure I follow this, and I don't follow the distancing accusation made towards Quick and Raya. Kinda agree on policy-lynching players like LL. I think I have a slight-town read on 13JT.

LicketyQuickety:

Seems to come in with some baggage from a previous game. I don't discount meta, but like I've said I'm not going to go read old games unless the circumstances dictate a need to. I don't follow the suspicion on 72 for asking why he was asked for reads. That's a big yawn for me. Goes on to post some "music". Gets into it a little bit with LL, again I'm not going to worry about LL's meta. Especially if Quick is correct and he's actively manipulating his play. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that interested in pursuing a case(s) that are rooted in Newbie 2007. I do agree that claiming a PR does not clear you of suspicion, and if I had the certainty about a player that Quick has about LL I would be totally unimpressed by the claim. And, as it turns out LL was lying. I don't understand the unvote in 291. I don't get the 13JT vote. I thought the avatar for BM was a sweet thing to do, but obviously not AI. I do believe the lack of a grudge/agenda against LL despite how hard she came down on him upon entering the game. Null/town.

JamSV

There is some baggage here. I single-handedly lost my first game for town by hammering Jam. I'm a little more cautious with how I look at him now. He likes to put players at E-1, and doesn't always follow that vote up with any kind of questioning or anything. So the E-1 vote on Blopp was no surprise to me at all. I don't understand his position on quick hammers being unlikely or not being AI considering what went down our last game together. The spat between Jam and LL is interesting, even if I find the statistics stuff goofy. I love 116, and I agree with Jam. Jam predicts a 72/LL scum team, a prediction that I suppose Quick would appreciate. Now that I'm starting to get to know Jam a little better I like it when he gets aggravated. I don't disagree with Jam's take on the ART, I just find it more potentially scummy than he does. I'm not going to take Jam thinking BM was the best player in our last game personally. I'm not. I'm really not. I don't like the speculation on PR's, but I don't find it scummy either. I'm not experienced enough to know the best way to approach a claim like LL made. I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now.

Raya36:

Well I just did an ISO on her, so this will be brief. I totally appreciate 13JT's suspicion. As I've said, the whole thing with LL not unvoting is thin and weird, especially given Jam's E-1 vote going unmentioned. LL seems to think my change of opinion happens "magically", but it's a result of Raya's response to the things that really bothered me. I might be easily swayed, but I believed her reasoning. I do think I gave her too much of a town-read, she's more null for me.

LuckyLuciano:

I don't have an issue with the initial reasons for the vote on Blopp, even if they didn't inspire me much. I don't have an issue with the ART, and I don't have an issue with not unvoting Bopp when put at E-1. I like that despite pressure to let go of the Blopp vote, LL sticks to his guns. I like 239. I don't really care about Newbie 2007. I don't feel that LL is being obtuse about Quick's case on him. That fucking claim though. At this point in the game I didn't have a scum-read on LL so I chose to believe the claim. It did bother me a little that the claim was made when there was no stated intent to hammer, but I just came off a game where quickhammers closed out 2 of the 3 days so I can see why town would do that. But this claim is apparently a lie, and this is where LL's tone really changes. Lying about being a PR while town seems really reckless to me and I don't see the value. So here is where I have to make a choice about how I view this slot. Is it that 1. LL is scum who was trying to push an early misexecute but was too stubborn to back off from pressure, got pouty about the wagon on him, made a false claim to shake off the attention, and then essentially rage quit (which is a bit hypocritical) while throwing shade at the people in the game who were pressuring him OR is that that 2. LL is town who strongly felt that the case on Blopp was solid gold, got frustrated by people disagreeing with his case/logic, is easily butthurt by Quick and Jam, and made the claim to refocus attention elsewhere, and then rage-quit because things weren't going his way? I think I'm going to land on the first option being a little more likely, and that largely is due to the claim. I don't see a town benefit to it as strongly as I see a scum benefit. Furthermore, scum!LL taking back the claim prevents any need to claim a specific role and cleans the slate for his replacement. I will reserve my vote until a replacement comes in, but I don't know how they can really answer for LL. I think I'd be comfortable hammering this slot.

72offsuit:

Agrees with LL on the early Blopp case. If he is a scum buddy with LL then this seems a somewhat bold move. Introduces the RQS as a "great scum hunting tool" but declines to answer the questions. The might be a joke though considering 72 then does answer the questions a little later. Very aloof. People accuse 72 of being evasive, I find him to be more blasé in tone than evasive. Interestingly 72 seems to come around to the idea that the Blopp ART isn't very strong. So why is the vote still there? I don't care about Newbie 2007. Ok, so 72 feels that the Blopp wagon is garbage, and thought his vote was on Raya. I don't like this, maybe I'm not following along well enough. 72 seems to be defending LL's push on Blopp, was a part of that push, then declared it a garbage wagon and moved his vote to a player who was pressuring LL. He gives LL the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, but granted he has somewhat of a history with LL. I don't have enough experience to have a strong stance on when it's appropriate to claim a specific power-role. But, if the LL slot is scum then it does seem to me that scum would rather not have any specific claims made in case they get called out. So, is 72's motive to not have LL claim born out of a desire to not have town speculate on the setup, or as an act of preservation for their scum-partner? That's a tough call for me to make right now. A flip on the LL slot seems to me to be of the greatest value right now.

Sorry if that was sloppily done. If there are any questions, comments, or concerns please share them. I might have missed obvious stuff.

Positive: Regardless if town or scum appreciate the effort in this post. Keeps the game moving.
Negative: Pretty much disagree with half the reads here.

1. You say you are confused about BM's posts, but I don;t see you actually clarifying them or any follow-up on your behalf.

2. TTJT and I have similar reads but somehow I am scummy and he is town. The read on TTJT and myself doesn;t really match up.

3. Read on Quick seems reasonable, like it could be from a town-mindset.

4. "I think I have to put Jam in my town-bloc for now". Pretty much zero discussion about Jam's actual ALIGNMENT, just goes on about why you like Jam, so I still have no idea how you conclude to put him as a town read.

5. The ISO on raya just feels really underwhelming, once again I'm not really getting the vibe of alignment sorting, it just feels like Information Instead of Analysis. Furthermore I don;t understand why Raya was chosen as the only player to be ISO'ed.

6. In my experience recklessness tends to come from town, not scum. Town speak their mind, their goal is simply to poke and prod and try to find scum.
Scum generally are more calculating - they care more about how they are perceived as scum doesn;t want to attract attention to themselves.

7. I think you can ask everyone here, if they think setup speculation is pro-town or pro-scum.
Once again, I don;t see why you are questioning my vote on Blopp as compared to TTJT.

8. Overall don;t see much here regarding motivation/intent of players. It mostly just feels like a recap of whats occurred in the game.

agree with lots of this. much more effort than I've seen from 72 before. Welcome to the townbloc.

7 is a slight ping. It's a commonly known tell that true newbies are statistically more likely to start their first post in forum games with a greeting when they roll mafia.

Hmm, ok. So why didn't you vote for me? Or more Homura, who arguably ducked out even harder...

23 is a slightly larger ping. It's LAMIST (Look at me, I'm so town). She's 'trying to move from RVS' by asking Clark what moved their game from RVS without moving the game forward herself. More specifically, she's offering content that at first glance appears to look town but upon closer inspection is not in any way AI because it doesn't offer any real thoughts. That's typically scum.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but that appears to be way more of a way of moving the conversation than intentional fluff posting. She even threw a wink at the end referencing my post about breaking the ice.

Finally, I don't like how she disappeared after getting 2 votes on her in quick succession. She posted after them, and with the preview feature she has to have seen them. Seems panicky to just dip out like that.

Maybe she didn't take it seriously. I do want to see her respond to your points for herself, I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Townpoints for Clark - no reason to defend the newbie here as scum.

@Clark, you have a completed game. Homura has many completed games.

I'm singling out the easiest target with a 'case' which flatters to deceive.

If you want to move the game from RVS, why are you defending Blopp instead of seeing what comes of this?

Just piss off and let me bully the newbie

Also, do not go out of your way to explain the reasoning of others. You are not a God who can read minds, none of us are. Let them explain themselves.

Let them try and explain their way out of my largely bogus case on Page 2, or I'll pick on you instead?

No comment here on Clark towntell

What follows is a gross sequence of posts from Raya (viewer discretion advised):

I want to see what comes of this so I'll sheep you

VOTE: Blopp

Sheeping here is a bit yuck, especially having seen how weak case is, and Raya surely better player than that?

[...]I just find your reasons pretty thin.

Why are you responding to this instead of letting Blopp respond... how are we supposed to

get info

put of Blopp if you respond for them? Do you town read Blopp? Or scumread Lucky?

what info? since when did it become anti-town to give your opinions on things as they arise? Aggression here towards Clark is odd, given Raya hasn't actually endorsed the case itself and appeared initially to be wagonning for the sake of wagonning. As above, Blopp was set up to fail here, and the pressure to silence dissenters from the easy mislynch is NAGL.

The only reason I'm not moving my vote to Clark is because I want to hear from Blopp

What did you want to hear from him?

But by giving a response you're making it easier for scum!Blopp to

get out of a tough situation

by just saying what you said is correct and maybe expanding on it. We get no info anymore unless Blopp decides to say something extremely different from what you said.

A general guideline that's good to follow is to never respond for someone else. It only ruins the potential to gain new info from that player. Especially if what you're responding to is a case, like what you responded to

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Moreover, I don't like to see SE players giving bad advice to newbies, regardless of alignment.

No reason to townread/defend a newbie as scum?
This is so wrong its not funny. Pocketing newbies is scum 101. Literally the first page of the manual. Newbies in general are much more impressionable and tend to be easier to pocket.

You're not completely wrong here - it depends on the situation. In the case above, it definitely felt easier, based on the flow of the game, for Clark-scum to attack the newbie rather than buddy them. Clark in this case, is a newbie himself, so I don't think your hypothesis applies as much. And the newbie in question was inactive anyway, so not much gained by pocketing them.

[Battle Mage]

Quick creeping up to Clark below

Screw you.

You wait till I get to your comments about his age.

[Battle Mage]

The mis-coaching from Raya here gives me the creeps. "get out of a tough situation" is a telling choice of words - Raya clearly appreciates the 'case' isn't one which a newbie could easily refute despite the fact it isn't grounded in good logic. The inference here is that Raya is expecting (maybe hoping?) Blopp won't respond in a way which "gets them out of a tough situation" and is disappointed that she was given a proverbial lifeline.

Maybe I was wrong but if so I'll listen since you have much more experience than me but I don't see how what I said was wrong. I was frustrated that Clark's response might affect how Blopp responds to the case on him. I am not in any way suggesting not to react or respond to things that interest you within the thread. But it's not town oriented to respond to a case and defend someone else even if it wasn't intended as a defense. While the case was weak his reaction to it could be very telling. I think it's a stretch to say I was upset because I wanted Blopp to not be able to get out of the case.

I think I was probably wrong on the wording choice above, so don't worry too much. I'm getting MorningTweet vibes from you - someone who is always town, but just has a way of communicating which gives me scummy vibes.

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

I'm amazed he hasn't claimed already.

[Battle Mage]

Porkens, you are welcome to claim if you'd like. Did you address your predecessor's false claim? What's your opinion on that? Out of curiosity. I was still in the womb when you joined this site, so your insights are like gold to me.

Ah! Flattery will get you everywhere how can I not answer?
I don’t....think I’m going to claim. Unless someone can present a strong protown case for me to do so.

And I’m not acknowledging whether it was a false claim or not.
I will say that LLs decision regarding his claim was a bad decision.

woah woah hold up! You're retracting your predecessor's retraction, and insinuating you are in fact a town PR?

I'm sold. VOTE: Porkens L-1. No hammer please until I can post final reads.

[Battle Mage]

Quick creeping up to Clark below

Screw you.

You wait till I get to your comments about his age.

I have nothing to hide. I'd prefer

you

not be a douche though.

Practice what you preach.

[Battle Mage]

What would be the best move as town?

Execute you.

I unvoted you because of your comment on Raya. It was indeed spicy. I've struggled with that slot and you pretty much exactly summed up one of my fears regarding it. Also, I didn't want you at E-1 while I slept.

Now that I'm awake and sober (albeit hungover) I don't see that as a super worthwhile avenue to pursue. At least not right now.

Intent to hammer. I'll abide by BM's request for him to catch up.

Cheers dude, I'll be done within next 4 hours.

[Battle Mage]

So I'm caught up reading. Clark case coming up. At this point it's a toss up for me between clark, Raya and Porkens.

Raya I've stated my early reasons and recent game hasn't been helping for me. Ill go in more detail soon

Clarkbarr has really flagged me recently. Full case coming soon as well so don't end the day.

And Porkens unfortunately for them, would tells us so much about the game.

I want quicks stance asap on Porkens. No hammer without a final claim Or I policy tomorrow.

You're a bit soft on Porkens here?

Thirteenth, what would my hanging tell us about the game?

I've been looking at vote counts throughout the game. Jamsv has been the most firm on the LL wagon. Hasn't waivered from their stance. Raya agrees with LL early game on Blopp and then distanced by voting LL as the wagon started turning.

Lickety was also pushing hard on LL and dropped a bit after the pr claim. Even with LL backtracking and dropping they have not returned to that wagon. Waiting on them now to further analyze.

Meanwhile counterwagon was 72 who agreed with LL. An LL flip would be the strongest indicator of 72 this game. I am almost certain if LL is town than 72 is scum here. Does not work vice versa. Clark on your wagon just now felt extremely oppurtunistic, again more detail coming.

There's so much to learn from your flip.

And I don't want to give 100% away the tell (you can however meta me to find it.) But it's related to one of my (borrowed) rqs question and Clark gave a result with 100% scum rate. Obviously tools like that are just tools so Ive been trying to watch their game independently from it. If they flip scum that tool will be great for future games and if not Clark becomes the exception.

You should look at the red bit tomorrow. I'm definitely seeing an LL-LQ scumteam.

Post 456 is by far the biggest red flag for me. I feel that up to this point Clark was attempting to slowly turn on LL but this posts felt like such a jump it felt forced. Their attitude towards that slot changed from then on.

This relies on LL town I think.

[Battle Mage]

This is awkward. But if we leave aside the primary awkwardness, I see buddying Looker, and then buddying Clark - both with really weird tone. Not a hint of any actual scumhunting though. Quick at this point, simply cruising on his BM-vote, which is still yet to be adequately explained.

You're fuckin twelve years old?

I lol'd and am TRing you for this joke.

Nobody tell him.

I thought there was an age restriction for this site?

Which is weird. I recently had someone ask me if you had to pay to be on this site.

Like, I am pretty sure no one is 12 yo on this site.

I didn't know you were 12. Sorry if that came across like I was belittling you.

Okay, this game just got weird. Apologise for any role I played in that. I'm not a creep or pedo or anything.

[Battle Mage]

You should look at the red bit tomorrow. I'm definitely seeing an LL-LQ scumteam.

Yawn. Which I totally called here:

Not sure how you can wiggle out of your LL/LQ solve now.

You've missed the point here. The point is that everyone else has seen the same behaviour from you, they just haven't stopped to join up the dots.

[Battle Mage]

Are you SCUM tho?

Are you SCUM tho?

Nope, I'm Town this game.

BM is Scum though. His push on me is bad. In what world is LL and I Scum? Like, a fabrication of that caliber doesn't come from Town.

This is lazy. Low effort fake-scumhunting. Overly defensive about suggestion he is scum with LL - I wonder why? This is an SE player.

Are you SCUM tho?

Nope, I'm Town this game.

BM is Scum though. His push on me is bad. In what world is LL and I Scum? Like, a fabrication of that caliber doesn't come from Town.

I will say this. While I don't believe in this scumteam... In a world were mafia wins this game.

TTJT - Please explain what you mean here?

In the case of LL/Porkens I would receive such a suggestion with bewilderment and suspicion. Unless of course that player lays out a really compelling case for town!LL. I mean

really

compelling.

Why would they have to view LL as Town? Why couldn't they see LL as Null and then decide they would prefer to lynch a stronger SR?

Quick - Show me where you viewed LL as null? I might post the progression myself, but happy for you to have first dibs!

I’m on mobile so excuse the lack of quotes and stuff. It’s a pain.

@Quick: A null read is fine, but explain why. Also, give me some reasoning on a stronger execution.

@JT13: That’s fine I guess. Is it a little weird for Quick to move off a wagon they were once on when nothing from that slot shows me that LL’s actions were just from a toxic player? Yeah. But I don’t see Quick giving Porkens a clean slate. A fair shake is different than abandoning a read.

@ Both of you: Do you believe that LL’s action were from frustrated town?

You're blinkered on Quick dude, he's scum.

@ Both of you: Do you believe that LL’s action were from frustrated town?

One possible way to read LL's actions is that they left with a final "hurrah". I actually don't like that mindset as they could have just as easily posted what they posted without leaving the game. That's the way I am leaning atm. My read on the play is that they left with their cards on the table, which they only did because they would otherwise just want to keep some things to themselves for other reasons which I have listed already.

this is gibberish - what do you actually mean here?

And my mindset early game for them was that I didn't think scum would push that hard so early In the game knowing to it had the potential to backfire which it did.

Maybe BUT this is LuckyLuciano - greatest mafia player the world has ever seen. I'm sure he had the confidence it wouldn't backfire.

Ok, I'm a drunky brewster right now and probably shouldn't be posting at all. BUT! I'm brimming with shit to say. I'll get to it tomorrow. A lot of it would just be me quoting Quick and asking questions as a result.

So far I'm not getting some essential things. Including: people on the LL/Porkens wagon not jumping in at all. I'm not asking for this to bolster my own argument, I feel good about that on its own, but the silence is off-putting. Including: An actual argument that I can buy for LL/Pork actually being town. Including: A case for BM being scum.

Goddammit Porkens, you sly fox. You might dismantle your wagon yet, but you don't get all the credit for that. Just know that I know you're scum and I won't let go.

Ok, I'm seeing two screens and I had some really good points running through my head a couple hours ago and I hope those return tomorrow morning.

A case for me being scum?? I'd love to see that!

[Battle Mage]

Show me a post where 72 ever really scum-hunts or pushes anything at all, or gives two fucks at all other than being aggravated by Quick and trying to stop a specific claim from LL or defending LL's play?

This is 72o. I've actually been staggered so far this game at how engaged and productive he has been compared to normal.

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

And this is a really, really poor post.

WTF dude

[Battle Mage]

Trying to add a little butter to the Jam eh? If you compliment his "tone" then he's sure to unvote you.

I thought this might be a sore point after your encounter with Burnt Toast and Jam in our last game?

I’ll take that as a yes. Tell me what you think of this readslist:

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?
Battle Mage replaced Blopp: bloop was zero entity, BM is just filling space
72offsuit: scummy as shit, should be lynched today
JamSV replaced individual: arrogant annoying but town
TheThirteenthJT: ehhhh town I guess talks a lot isn’t obviously bad
ClarkBar: town ish I guess
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision: durrrr not too much scumtelling but I dunno
Raya36 (SE) : kinda sheepy? Leaaaaaaanscum
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano: total town hero

filling space? I've been positively subdued by peak-BM standards! Quick sorta neutral then?

@72 I will 100% respond to everything tomorrow. Question 4 is kinda on you, but I'll post it.

Off the bat, I'm annoyed by BM's reads list. Two plus days of rehashing old stuff seems like a dodge. Just read the thread (it ain't that long) and give some reads and start participating in current events.

Word to the wise - just because something happened a couple days ago, doesn't make it less relevant. It's a hell of a lot easier to understand the game if you read it properly, and a hell of a lot easier for others to read you if you post your thoughts candidly as you go. It's an unusual approach maybe but I actually like a bunch of players in this game and wanted to make the effort more than a normal replace-in.

[Battle Mage]

Quick - Show me where you viewed LL as null? I might post the progression myself, but happy for you to have first dibs!

Sure, but I'm doing this for Town, not for you.

Whether LL's slot as Town or Scum at this point wouldn't surprise me either way.

Counterpoint:

They really don't, but okay, keep preaching that until you decide to actually play the game instead of continuing to try and snipe me in games so you can keep fascinating over your belief that I'm somebody that I'm not and finding new and unique reasons to vote me because of your hatred for that person.

You've been caught red handed. If this is the best defense of my case, I'm afraid I am going to have to...

VOTE: LL

P-Edit: None of that has anything to do with my case on you.

I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Why should I believe you wouldn't say this as Scum?

So you are advocating eliminating a claimed power role day 1 when, in claiming, my slot because self-resolving as the game goes on anyway?

No, I'm claiming my case is rock solid and you claiming PR doesn't dissuade me at all given that is exactly what you would do if you were Scum. Like, what is my incentive to believe you are telling the truth about being TPR?

EBWOP: So you are advocating eliminating a claimed power role day 1 when, in claiming, my slot becomes self-resolving as the game goes on anyway?

Yeah. I've shown 72 blatantly lied about your meta because there was no way he could have known I would be entering the game to fact check that statement. You never denied such statement, but instead used it to push a no content slot, which is in direct opposition to what I pointed out in the game I listed where you actually unvoted a do-nothing slot.

Sure, keep saying that.

Like, do you have an argument here on why I am wrong? It seems like you are just trying to convince me I "could be wrong" without actually addressing anything I have said.

UNVOTE:

To give Town a moment to process what just happened.

Can somebody please tell me if that suggests Quick had a "null" view of LL immediately following the claim? And big BM bonus points for explaining how town-Quick makes this progression from certain scum, to an unvote 'to let people catch up', which is never followed up on.

[Battle Mage]

It just boggles my mind that LL ended up claiming based on a scumread of three posts.

Porkens.
Read into the relationship between LL and Quick.
LL replaced oit of the previous game he was involved with quick. It was clear to me he was cbf with this game.

LL is not a rage quitter. He is also not a sore loser. I dont see !scumLL replacing out and screwing over his replcement with his fake claim.

Unless....He's scum with his arch-nemesis and doesn't give a crap about screwing him over?

If you are town, town are not particularly impressed either.

From you? Ouch!

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Like, if you are mason with 72, just say so. If you are that would make sense. But it's not really my fault I caught 72 lying about your meta and thought he was Scum for it.

Anyways, if you ARE masons with 72, which I would say is about 50/50 at this point, then I would look at Raya36 for the blatant buddy attempt as well as Thirteen for them affirming LL's meta and budying me. I DON'T think Blopp flaking is actually AI.

Oh that ROLEFISHING tho

yeah true

[Battle Mage]

If I'm not mistaking, that's 4 votes. I have a TPR. Let's move on.

Like, if you are mason with 72, just say so. If you are that would make sense. But it's not really my fault I caught 72 lying about your meta and thought he was Scum for it.

Anyways, if you ARE masons with 72, which I would say is about 50/50 at this point, then I would look at Raya36 for the blatant buddy attempt as well as Thirteen for them affirming LL's meta and budying me. I DON'T think Blopp flaking is actually AI.

UNVOTE:

To give Town a moment to process what just happened.

Going to vote it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

So you are advocating eliminating a claimed power role day 1 when, in claiming, my slot because self-resolving as the game goes on anyway?

No, I'm claiming my case is rock solid and you claiming PR doesn't dissuade me at all given that is exactly what you would do if you were Scum. Like, what is my incentive to believe you are telling the truth about being TPR?

I don’t understand this progression at all

I didn't know you'd done this. Although not hugely helpful posting a "progression" with the steps in the wrong order.

[Battle Mage]

Ok, we have a little cadre here throwing shade at me. No probs, but where's them votes?

this one has fighting spirit!

He's mafia, my vote is no longer random.

Agreed.

VOTE: Blopp

That’s not what you said here.

I dont see why you are questioning my motivation here.
Let me break it down.

1) I get an initial bad ping, from the smiley face and LAMIST post of blopp.
2) I like to wagon newbies, they are the most likely tl give AI reactions
3) I vote blopp to pressure the slot.

What is hard to understand here?

Maybe if you'd explained it in the first place, you wouldn't be spending more time talking about it now.

[Battle Mage]

You saying I'm not scum-hunting is a gross misrepresentation of my effort in this game.

I'd agree with this overall, I just wish you'd stop sporadically flinging poop at me.

Independent Reads (not based on possible pairings)

Town

TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
ClarkBar
Looker

To be determined

Lickety Quickety
72offsuit

Scum

Raya36
LuckyLuciano

My townbloc is strong, so should be able to move faster now!

How can you possibly have such a strong townread on looker right now?

I had a townread on Homura, who he replaced. It's not

that

strong, but stronger than neutral and i went with 3 categories.

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

This is almost the opposite of what I think it is.

[Battle Mage]

Quick creeping up to Clark below

Screw you.

You wait till I get to your comments about his age.

I have nothing to hide. I'd prefer you not be a douche though.

Nothing to hide? Or nothing to show?

You also note you find some of my play confusing - can you elaborate? Calling me out for not contributing much, 1 day after I joined, a bit harsh! In contrast to your Quick read, you view my slot with suspicion, although not clear from your analysis why that is the case?

It was a bit harsh, as was 685. Play the game the way you like, I don't know why I got so aggro about it.

I didn't find your play confusing, there were some short posts you made soon after you replaced in that seemed like they may have belonged in a different thread or something. Nothing I consider AI.

Alright we cool dude. I was probably just having some low-effort fun before the work began.

[Battle Mage]

This is awkward. But if we leave aside the primary awkwardness, I see buddying Looker, and then buddying Clark - both with really weird tone. Not a hint of any actual scumhunting though. Quick at this point, simply cruising on his BM-vote, which is still yet to be adequately explained.

You're fuckin twelve years old?

I lol'd and am TRing you for this joke.

Nobody tell him.

I thought there was an age restriction for this site?

Which is weird. I recently had someone ask me if you had to pay to be on this site.

Like, I am pretty sure no one is 12 yo on this site.

I didn't know you were 12. Sorry if that came across like I was belittling you.

Okay, this game just got weird. Apologise for any role I played in that. I'm not a creep or pedo or anything.

By all means, flip Scum LL to catch Scum LQ.

Challenge accepted.

You should look at the red bit tomorrow. I'm definitely seeing an LL-LQ scumteam.

Yawn. Which I totally called here:

Not sure how you can wiggle out of your LL/LQ solve now.

You've missed the point here. The point is that everyone else has seen the same behaviour from you, they just haven't stopped to join up the dots.

I'm not looking at you WORDS, I'm looking at your ACTIONS.

empty fluff again - boring.

[Battle Mage]

Yes, don't let Blair know but I think you were the best player in Newbie 2013.

And this is a really, really poor post.

WTF dude

Just hammering the joke that I'm offended by Jam's low opinion of me in that game. Of course he would have a low opinion of my play and of course you were the best player that game.

Aww shucks!

@Battle Mage,

Who do you look at if Porkens flips Town? You still going to go after me? Or is your read on me DEPENDENT on LL?

It was largely dependent on LL originally, though now I think you're independently scummier than he is, aside from the fakeclaim stuff. It's a moot point as LL/Porkens is obvscum due to the fakeclaim, retraction and then re-retraction. Your progression around the LL-claim and subsequently has been extraordinarily scummy, you have barely done anything of value despite being an SE who posts frequently and clearly has time to spend on the game, you are lazily parroting a vote on me which you haven't given a meaningful reason for (besides OMGUS) and you've been super-defensive ever since I first suggested you could be scum with Porkens.

[Battle Mage]

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

I'm amazed he hasn't claimed already.

Well he was never at E-1 with intent so I'm more surprised there was any claim in the first place. I do find it very scummy that he was willing to claim he was a town PR but refused to claim what PR. I mean now that he claimed he was a PR he was obviously going to be the NK target. So saying his specific role only would've helped town. Actually with this logic Porkens should probably full claim.

what do you think of Porkens hinting that he is a PR after all?

[Battle Mage]

there we go, I'm caught up! Definitive readslist pending...

[Battle Mage]

Towniest
TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
Raya36
72offsuit
ClarkBar
Looker
Lickety Quickety
Porkens
Scummiest

Convinced the scumpair is Lickety Quickety and Porkens. Reads subject to change depending on flips, but that's where I am now.

Grateful if, before going to night, people can give comments on Quick, in particular his progression on LL which I highlighted in post 789 (noting that now he claims LL is null).

[Battle Mage]

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Thank you
Opinions from those with the most experience on whether or not Lucky should fully claim?

I'm amazed he hasn't claimed already.

Well he was never at E-1 with intent so I'm more surprised there was any claim in the first place. I do find it very scummy that he was willing to claim he was a town PR but refused to claim what PR. I mean now that he claimed he was a PR he was obviously going to be the NK target. So saying his specific role only would've helped town. Actually with this logic Porkens should probably full claim.

what do you think of Porkens hinting that he is a PR after all?

What choice does he have?

This isn't really an answer. Please try again.

[Battle Mage]

It was largely dependent on LL originally, though now I think you're independently scummier than he is, aside from the fakeclaim stuff. It's a moot point as LL/Porkens is obvscum due to the fakeclaim, retraction and then re-retraction. Your progression around the LL-claim and subsequently has been extraordinarily scummy, you have barely done anything of value despite being an SE who posts frequently and clearly has time to spend on the game, you are lazily parroting a vote on me which you haven't given a meaningful reason for (besides OMGUS) and you've been super-defensive ever since I first suggested you could be scum with Porkens.

Nope. Haven't been defensive.

Lie

And being defensive isn't a Scum tell either.

Depends on context - I've given it above.

I have a pretty clear progression on LL and you making it out to be bogus just shows more and more that you are Scum.

your progression is definitely not "pretty clear"; it's "impossible to justify as town" - as evidenced by the fact you haven't been able to justify it

You tried saying you were not keeping up to date with post in the very post you were being up to date with.

I read the game through from the start, as you've seen. You made this point earlier, and I explained why it isn't valid.

I laid out my reasons for you being Scum already which haven't proven false.

I think aside from the above, it boiled down to the fact you didn't like me calling out the weird interaction between you and LL? Was there more I missed, or is this simply a lie?

In fact, you pretty much confirmed it yourself.

Confirmed what, where?

I don't see you being able to weasel out of a LL/LQ team at this point.

It's pretty obvious I'm not looking to "weasel out of a LL/LQ team". Why would I want to?

You're pretty much stuck with it since I called you out.

I can't believe you're an SE.

Good luck lynching me, you're going to need it.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lickety Quickety

Inconceivable this slot is town, and I'd rather lynch it today as Porkens is a dead-duck.

[Battle Mage]

Can you give me your case all in one post

Give him a chance to write one. And while he does, care to join me in lynching Porkens scumbuddy?

[Battle Mage]

Quick today, Pork tomorrow, game over.

[Battle Mage]

I'm kind of in a melancholy funk, sorry if I seem quiet.

I guess my issue with Quick/LL is that I have to take into account that those two players may really dislike each other. The history between them may have played a large part in Quick's attitude towards LL, and when the player was replaced that led to a change in attitude towards the slot. I think LL meta was even the original reason Quick had for voting him.

I'm not discounting this scum team, I just don't love it. I want Porkens first.

I'm all for giving replacements a chance, but the alignment of the slot doesn't change. Quick should know that too, and he hasn't justified his most recent transition from scumreading to neutral. Let alone his transition from scumreading to...eh, just unvoting his prime target and then forgetting to revote. I'm beyond confident they are the team - you should love it. The fact they dislike each other is not relevant to this.

If you promise me you'll flip him tomorrow I'll join Pork today.

[Battle Mage]

Towniest
TheThirteenthJT
JamSV
Raya36
72offsuit
ClarkBar
Looker
Lickety Quickety
Porkens
Scummiest

Convinced the scumpair is Lickety Quickety and Porkens. Reads subject to change depending on flips, but that's where I am now.

Grateful if, before going to night, people can give comments on Quick, in particular his progression on LL which I highlighted in post 789 (noting that now he claims LL is null).

You are so full of it BM Your entire catchup is spewing noise, and you should be hanged tomorrow when I flip town.

I’m the most dangerous role to scum in this setup.
Vanilla Town.

VOTE: Battlemage

You mean my commentary on the game was less useful than your pages of random pointless questions which never went anywhere?

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

[Battle Mage]

Does one logically think, and somehow come to the conclusion, that Lucky as a PR would claim to be a PR, and unclaim TPR? Given that, do you really think Porkens would have claimed anything other than VT? It was a last ditch effort to save herself because "we" wanted claims. Basic logic can tell you she'd claim VT I don't know why on earth any of you wanted it.

Strictly speaking, for those keeping score at home, Porkens has retracted his own retraction of LL's retraction of his original fakeclaim (as Porkens implied he actually was a PR after all earlier in the day).

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

I broadly agree with this take.

So I'm not super into this game yet so I'm gonna make a readslist to orient myself.

Town:

JamSV - Town, tonal/reasoning, 56 was bad town play imo. Scum wouldn't be so obvious if this was an attempt at a quick hammer though I think.

ClarkBar - I think Clark is overeager town on a reread. This is consistent with their RVS play. I no longer find defending Blopp to be scummy since the eagerness is consistent. His responses to my questioning about this sounds genuine too.

Homura - Townlean, I like the stance taken on Lucky and it's very similar thoughts to my own.

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Null:

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to hear more.

72offsuit - Null. I actually scumread RQS a bit (but very weakly), I don't find it works or does any good and responses tend to lead only to unrelated debate. It muddies the thread. Also why start RQS then refuse to answer and say it won't help find alignment? What is your read on Lucky?

Blopp - Scumlean/null for lack of content. I want to hear from her or a replacement.

Scum:

LuckyLuciano - Scum, didn't remove vote at L-1, reachy case on Blopp (had a greeting in their first post, LAMIST post (23) but I heavily disagree. How is 23 any different than the RQS questions and how could she be using it to try to look town or helpful?, saying that they came online to remove their profile pic but didn't post so must be given up scum). It seems like he's trying to make a case out of nothing. It also seems like he's trying to set up a lynch to for sure be Blopp (stating that if he gets replaced and they claim VT he'll push for their lynch, not seeming particularly interested in hearing from the replacement). It's always best to hear from the replacement of a sus player. I don't like the statistics analysis too. Usually when I see stuff like this I take it as busy work. It's not a strong case, there's lots of variables, it muddied up the thread and made the game less readable for me at least. A question for you Lucky, why can't newbtown get frustrated and quit when a wagon is formed on them? Why must Blopp be scum for this?

A good readslist. Smart town or informed scum? Only 1 scumread though, and largest wagon at this point, so not going out on much of a limb. Although she hasn't given herself much room for manoerve either. Gut feeling still Raya-scum, has felt awkwardly out of step with rest of the play to this point.

@JamSV, why did you put Blopp at L-1 and proceed to tell players to feel free to hammer and state that you see quickhammers as NAI?

A quickhammer can be seen as NAI as it could just be a really bad misunderstanding leading to a bad play. Which is why I believe a quickhammer without an explanation is scum indicative, but one with (on its own) is NAI.

I put him on L-1 to see how he would react. Nobody would express intent to hammer so my proceeding post was to in force that a extra bit of pressure. I have faith nobody would come in and swoop to quick hammer, considering we had all already posted (excluding Echovision), and we could all easily see how close he is to getting hammered. I will admit, I really didn't expect him to "leave" if we can class that as what he is doing. Plus that type of play is good for moving more out of the RVS, and it can apply simple pressure to see just how easily somebody would actually fold.

- If you were wondering if I have a bit too much faith in people, I probably do.

Quick hammers are a difficult subject to assess. In my first game I delivered a naked quickhammer as town. I was a town mason and we had our reasons for it. In the end all quickhammers have reasons even if not explained and do follow an agenda so they are touchy subjects for me. No we maybe a quickhammers earlier in the day umpromted may be a case for scum but have not encountered that situation yet. Most come towards the end of the day phase.

Now I do find it interesting you placed Blopp at e-1 and didn't really get called out much for it. Instead Raya unvoted and Luciano got scumleaned for not doing do as well. I don't believe you had I'll intentions and neither did Luciano. Raya comes away again as most suspicious and a bit LAMIST for his unvote.

That's a very good point about Raya not calling out Jam - I missed that one! Would Raya have been tunnelling her partner this early? Although a scumlean is only a warning shot I guess...

And you're preaching to the converted on quickhammers!

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

Don't like this in isolation, and had a similar comment towards Lucky earlier. Comes across as if the cases would be artificial rather than legitimate (i'll only commit to a scumread once I think my case will stand up to scrutiny). Unlikely Raya-72 scumpair?

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Yes partially. I was also suggesting that scum are the only ones that truly know everyone's alignment. So Clark is an interesting read for me and would like to expand on this later. He actually failed a test earlier and it looks bad for him but his play has indicated town for me. I will be keeping a good look at him throughout the game but it's currently Not enough for me to keep my vote on him currently.

So after my reread my vote will most comfortably be here

UNVOTE: clark
VOTE: raya36

I'm interested in what this failed test is

me too. Hey TTJT - what was the test?

Read that post from the lens of a reya misshang

One of the great benefits of me posting lots and being open about my reads is you can basically pick any lens and frame it so I look like scum depending on flips. Opportunistic scum to the end.

[Battle Mage]

No. We get Porkens today. Why lynch who you think Porkens buddy is before confirming Porkens is scum

you'd better get him tomorrow then!

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler:

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

Where's your vote then?

My vote is "on" Blopp I just don't want him at L-1

Perhaps it is a coincidence, but since being wagoned, Blopp has removed their profile pic. That means they have been onsite and decided not to post. So now we have her ignoring the initial wagon that I started with 72o, despite posting after it began and ignoring my case. In addition, we have her logging on to remove her profile pic and still not posting. Feels a lot like giving up to me.

This is a bad case and very reachy.

Also can you all look back at my two questions (rqs) I asked. I really want to know the answer for the first one.

I'll do this in my next post.

UNVOTE:
I don't want a quick hammer. L-2 is plenty for pressure. Scumlean on Lucky for not removing his vote. Could be hoping for that quickhammer

Is he your only scumlean or do you have more?

Lucky and blopp. Maybe Clark but I'm unsure

"I scumlean Lucky for possibly wanting a quick hammer on my other scumlean."

For the record, I'm expecting Blopp not to post again until the slot is replaced, and if the slot claims VT I will be pushing for the slot to be eliminated.

Just because I scumlean him doesnt mean I'm right (I never take associations into account D1. I often have multiple scumread that don't work together). And its perfectly viable to be concerned about someone not removing their vote at L-1 when Blopp hasn't even talked yet.

Actually since I can't vote Blopp right now VOTE: Lucky. I think this is more likely anyway. Your stats case also was reachy and the whole basis of your scumread isn't concrete. I would accept your case if and only if it was supporting evidence of a much stronger and more viable case.

Isn't most Day 1 early cases reachy? I really hate this argument
Also I see you join The Luciano wagon after I printed you to vote and someone else joined before you. I don't like this. I could argue myself that your case on him is reachy but again my case is reachy here no? Finally your case is more repreat what was already aid to give you a reason to join the wagon. While not Al we always scum indicative it's a good start.

Once I catch up my read here I will chiose where my vote goes but you are definitely setting off alarms.

I broadly agree with this take.

So I'm not super into this game yet so I'm gonna make a readslist to orient myself.

Town:

JamSV - Town, tonal/reasoning, 56 was bad town play imo. Scum wouldn't be so obvious if this was an attempt at a quick hammer though I think.

ClarkBar - I think Clark is overeager town on a reread. This is consistent with their RVS play. I no longer find defending Blopp to be scummy since the eagerness is consistent. His responses to my questioning about this sounds genuine too.

Homura - Townlean, I like the stance taken on Lucky and it's very similar thoughts to my own.

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Null:

LicketyQuickety - Null, need to hear more.

72offsuit - Null. I actually scumread RQS a bit (but very weakly), I don't find it works or does any good and responses tend to lead only to unrelated debate. It muddies the thread. Also why start RQS then refuse to answer and say it won't help find alignment? What is your read on Lucky?

Blopp - Scumlean/null for lack of content. I want to hear from her or a replacement.

Scum:

LuckyLuciano - Scum, didn't remove vote at L-1, reachy case on Blopp (had a greeting in their first post, LAMIST post (23) but I heavily disagree. How is 23 any different than the RQS questions and how could she be using it to try to look town or helpful?, saying that they came online to remove their profile pic but didn't post so must be given up scum). It seems like he's trying to make a case out of nothing. It also seems like he's trying to set up a lynch to for sure be Blopp (stating that if he gets replaced and they claim VT he'll push for their lynch, not seeming particularly interested in hearing from the replacement). It's always best to hear from the replacement of a sus player. I don't like the statistics analysis too. Usually when I see stuff like this I take it as busy work. It's not a strong case, there's lots of variables, it muddied up the thread and made the game less readable for me at least. A question for you Lucky, why can't newbtown get frustrated and quit when a wagon is formed on them? Why must Blopp be scum for this?

A good readslist. Smart town or informed scum? Only 1 scumread though, and largest wagon at this point, so not going out on much of a limb. Although she hasn't given herself much room for manoerve either. Gut feeling still Raya-scum, has felt awkwardly out of step with rest of the play to this point.

@JamSV, why did you put Blopp at L-1 and proceed to tell players to feel free to hammer and state that you see quickhammers as NAI?

A quickhammer can be seen as NAI as it could just be a really bad misunderstanding leading to a bad play. Which is why I believe a quickhammer without an explanation is scum indicative, but one with (on its own) is NAI.

I put him on L-1 to see how he would react. Nobody would express intent to hammer so my proceeding post was to in force that a extra bit of pressure. I have faith nobody would come in and swoop to quick hammer, considering we had all already posted (excluding Echovision), and we could all easily see how close he is to getting hammered. I will admit, I really didn't expect him to "leave" if we can class that as what he is doing. Plus that type of play is good for moving more out of the RVS, and it can apply simple pressure to see just how easily somebody would actually fold.

- If you were wondering if I have a bit too much faith in people, I probably do.

Quick hammers are a difficult subject to assess. In my first game I delivered a naked quickhammer as town. I was a town mason and we had our reasons for it. In the end all quickhammers have reasons even if not explained and do follow an agenda so they are touchy subjects for me. No we maybe a quickhammers earlier in the day umpromted may be a case for scum but have not encountered that situation yet. Most come towards the end of the day phase.

Now I do find it interesting you placed Blopp at e-1 and didn't really get called out much for it. Instead Raya unvoted and Luciano got scumleaned for not doing do as well. I don't believe you had I'll intentions and neither did Luciano. Raya comes away again as most suspicious and a bit LAMIST for his unvote.

That's a very good point about Raya not calling out Jam - I missed that one! Would Raya have been tunnelling her partner this early? Although a scumlean is only a warning shot I guess...

And you're preaching to the converted on quickhammers!

You can take a look at my meta if you want 72. 4 townleans/reads early game is not unusual for me. multiple scumleans isn't either. And I'm sure you can find reads similar to my read on Homura too.

You're not scumread because my RQS statement is very weak and can only be used as a statement to back up a stronger case.

Don't like this in isolation, and had a similar comment towards Lucky earlier. Comes across as if the cases would be artificial rather than legitimate (i'll only commit to a scumread once I think my case will stand up to scrutiny). Unlikely Raya-72 scumpair?

TheThirteenthJT - Slight townlean. 58 are you suggesting Jam and Clark are partners? What is your read on Clark? I believe your vote is still there.

Yes partially. I was also suggesting that scum are the only ones that truly know everyone's alignment. So Clark is an interesting read for me and would like to expand on this later. He actually failed a test earlier and it looks bad for him but his play has indicated town for me. I will be keeping a good look at him throughout the game but it's currently Not enough for me to keep my vote on him currently.

So after my reread my vote will most comfortably be here

UNVOTE: clark
VOTE: raya36

I'm interested in what this failed test is

me too. Hey TTJT - what was the test?

Read that post from the lens of a reya misshang

Can't speak for anyone else but myself here. Now read this list from the perspective of a player calling out what they see.

Additionally I've never voted for Raya, and have been clear she is one of my current townreads.

[Battle Mage]

Clark do you want the hammer?

[Battle Mage]

unvote then, I'll -1 and you can hammer.

[Battle Mage]

The desperation for this lynch to go through is palpable. Remember this page.

Maybe next game, don't start off with exclaiming you like memegambits and lolhammers, which only seek to harm town, you'd get at least a bit of benefit of the doubt due to being a replacement that way.

This really looks like you know I’m town.

don't forget he's your top townread

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Porkens

[Battle Mage]

By the way, this might be a pain for some, I actually town lean Porkens. I was simply very very curious to see how a hammer would play out. One of the annoying things about when people post the minutes around their own hammer, is you can get a very good indicator of their role and alignment. I wanted to test who would actually hammer Porkens.
VOTE: ClarkBar
Sorry bud.

PS- I'm very sorry for the insults @Porkens, I wanted to make it seem more genuine.

Spoiler: I would have hammered Porkens

[Battle Mage]

I'm done for today I think. Wake me up when we're lynching Quick or Pork, otherwise I'm not interested.

[Battle Mage]

Jamsv and Porkens twam anyone?

not in a million years are they doing that as scumbuddies. it'd be borderline rulebreach for playing against your wincon

[Battle Mage]

I don't know what the fk all that was about, but at least we got there in the end

[Battle Mage]

Porkens if you read my play this day you will know I have not been the enemy to your slot as town. If you are I did my best to give you the benefit of the doubt but this train was unavoidable

he's scum dude

[Battle Mage]

Jamsv and Porkens twam anyone?

not in a million years are they doing that as scumbuddies. it'd be borderline rulebreach for playing against your wincon

Get an avatar, cum.

I've got one - your scumbuddy made it for me.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Porkens
Stole it

was this really just about pulling on Clark's chain?

[Battle Mage]

I'd have to say, this could be the worst performance by successive players in the same slot I've ever seen. Fakeclaim, retracted, re-fakeclaim, re-retracted. all on Day 1. You may as well just have claimed scum.

[Battle Mage]

Jamsv has been so levelheaded this game. That flipflop is weird lol.

I just felt like spicing things up a bit

to be honest

.

oh no....

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Porkens
Stole it

was this really just about pulling on Clark's chain?

Revenge for our last game.

you had Pork going too

(and everybody else)

[Battle Mage]

OH BEFORE I GO A COUPLE NOTES FROM YOUR SE:

2. Don’t use sexual terms like “get off his dick” in negative ways. It’s homophobic and shaming. And it creates a hostile environment, to boot.
3. Stop being such assholes to each other.
10. Black Lives Matter
11. Make sure you

hang

13 tomorrow, then BM.

P. Edit the only thing I did today was claim VT. I never hinted that I was a PR, in fact I pointedly said I would not comment on the claim other than it was bad. You are misrepresenting me.

You retracted his retraction i.e. that you were in fact a PR all along. Then apparently forgot you'd done it, and claimed vanilla.

[Battle Mage]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

[Battle Mage]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

it's WIFOM really, but yeah, as a general rule I probably wouldn't because it basically pins you on 2 mis-elims and discredits your reads.

Having said that, he suspected me too, so 3 probable explanations for the NK:

1. I killed Quick because he suspected me.
2. Someone else killed Quick to make me look bad.
3. Someone killed Quick because they thought he was a PR, or he was an SE (although little evidence of either that I saw).

[Battle Mage]

Thanks for the quick response, BM. Going to ask a couple more questions.

1. Are examining/guessing about NK's a worthwhile pursuit of Town? (not an attack on you for 946 BM, just a general best practices thing.)

2. Is Raya scum? I'm not interested in responses to this one from Raya or BM, though they are welcome. I do want to hear from everybody else on this matter.

1. It's not hugely valuable, but also doesn't do any harm. I don't think it's something we should be overly pre-occupied with.

2. No, I don't think Raya is scum.

[Battle Mage]

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon.

I think I agree. Still, a dick move.

Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.

Please explore this further. Conviction at that point is, to me, not AI.

Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.

I think some people had blinders on yesterday due to LL's play. But Looker was so actively scumhunting...

need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

And for me 72 being scum was largely contingent on Porkens being scum.

VOTE: 72offsuit

I disagree with those feeling 72 is town after that turn. I explained the reasons for the opposite Day 1.

Clark and Raya are still some of my favorites and Battle Mage is now also suspect to me.

Jamesv is weird...

No thoughts on Looker yet. Most of my thinking is still based off Homuras play which I will revisit.

Current areadlist scum to less scum.
72 confident here.
Raya
Clark
battle mage
Looker
Jamsv

I see a few potential scum pairings too.
72 and Clark or BM and Clark. I have no pairing for Raya currently.

Quick thoughts, I'm tired tonight and will check back in tomorrow.

I think you're close to the money with that list, 13JT. Can you tell me why Looker is so much of a town-read though?

Clark - Can you talk me through this one? You started by saying 72o would only be scum with Pork, and after he votes you, you agree with TTJT's assessment he is top scumread? Or is there another part of the list you agree with?

TTJT - As per post above, if both your potential scum pairings include Clark, why voting for 72o?

[Battle Mage]

Jam, keep your eye on the prize.
Clark is scum.
Looker is a distraction.

We can work out if its a distraction as town or as scum. We can get more from Looker atm than from Clark. I'm not looking at only one prize.

Dude, it's Looker. He might be town, he might be scum, he won't give much indication either way, and we'll figure it out only when we absolutely have to.

I'm much more into Clark because:

a. I have a theory which I want to test.
b. I'm not impressed with the way he ducked my questions on previous page.

VOTE: Clark

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I disagree with those feeling 72 is town after that turn. I explained the reasons for the opposite Day 1.

Clark and Raya are still some of my favorites and Battle Mage is now also suspect to me.

Jamesv is weird...

No thoughts on Looker yet. Most of my thinking is still based off Homuras play which I will revisit.

Current areadlist scum to less scum.
72 confident here.
Raya
Clark
battle mage
Looker
Jamsv

I see a few potential scum pairings too.
72 and Clark or BM and Clark. I have no pairing for Raya currently.

Quick thoughts, I'm tired tonight and will check back in tomorrow.

Why do you scumread me if i scumread your other top 3 scumreadas. Non sequitur. It does not follow.

This doesn't make sense. You've heard of distancing right?

[Battle Mage]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

it's WIFOM really, but yeah, as a general rule I probably wouldn't because it basically pins you on 2 mis-elims and discredits your reads.

Having said that, he suspected me too, so 3 probable explanations for the NK:

1. I killed Quick because he suspected me.
2. Someone else killed Quick to make me look bad.
3. Someone killed Quick because they thought he was a PR, or he was an SE (although little evidence of either that I saw).

Why include yourself in the explanations....

Trying to be helpful by setting out all the possible options (obviously it isn't 1 but not everyone knows that).

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler:

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

Flip preferences: 29% Porkens | 20% JamSV | 16% Raya | 14% ThirteenthJT or LicketyQuick | 12% Battle Mage | 9% 72offsuit | 0% ClarkBar

---

I've been working longer hours so I'm more irritated by the time I get home. Sorry. LuckyLuciano is not a bad person. His fakeclaim and AtE are still scummy, though.

Okay so important question, I'm going to assume, that it is in order of scum likeliness, such that the higher percentage we have, the scummier we are. In that regards, why is Clark 0%, a perfect town read, I find it interesting given none of us have him as our strongest town read. Can we interpret it as mason buddies / scum buddies, as realistically, even if I was convinced Battle Mage was the towniest town that town has ever seen, there's still a chance something could change and I'd want to remove him, the 0% seems suspicious if we consider % by scum likeliness.

If we consider % instead by removing based off of scum likeliness + you liking their play style, I think the 0% on Clark and the 9% on A9offsuit makes less sense. I'd like an explanation on 72offsuit's if that's the case.

As such, instead of leaving this up to interpretation what %s represent and why you have the numbers, could you care to order us by scum likeliness?

I don't understand which words you were trying to put in my mouth. Either way, you didn't wait for my explanation before you hammered.

I decided to do a bit of work for Looker, because I was curious. Based off of mod's vote count posts because I'm too lazy to go through 30 pages. Thank you Nahdia.
Table of who voted for whom voted for whom:
https://imgur.com/Cv3ZhUu idk how to include images into a post properly.

A bunch of logic stuff, read if you want, but it's in a spoiler if you don't want to.

Spoiler:

Now as we know, Looker gave Clark a 0% chance to be scum based off of who voted him, and who he voted for. He voted for Looker himself, and Porkens. Obviously he will treat himself as town, that means voting for Porkens does not make you scum at all, meaning Looker scum reads Porkens.

By those standards, myself, LicketyQuickety, and Raya36 should have lower %s by his standards. That isn't the case though. Meaning, those who voted for us, make us scum. In my case, based off of Mod vote counts, nobody has voted for me, yet I'm the 2nd highest to be scum for it, weird. This is strike 1 for his post being nonsensical.

Raya was voted for by TTJT and 72os, and voted Porkens and LicketyQuickety, from this we can assume Looker town reads TTJT, 72os, and LicketyQuickety. However based off of the percentages for me, Raya, lickety, and TTJT, this makes no sense again. This is strike 2 for his post being nonsensical.

LicketyQuickety voted for Battle Mage, Porkens, 72, and TTJT, well, we just worked out TTJT and 72 were town, and a vote on porkens gave ClarkBar a 0%, so this implies Battle Mage is scum. This is strike 3 for his post being nonsensical.

Basically, what the spoiler says is, its nonsense, I could explain more but I got bored. I felt like proving his post about how he got his %s was just a lie. I really would like to see his read list on everybody, doesn't necessarily need an explanation, I'd also like an explanation between the 0% on Clark because his explanation was nonsense, and on the 9% for 72offsuit. Good news though Porkens, depending on how he responds, can change my mind into expecting a ClarkBar/Looker duo.

Your assumptions are confusing me. I also think it's weird that you went from "I don't understand what Looker means" to "Looker is being purposefully 'nonsensical'" without any input from me.

Spoiler:

VOTE: 72offsuit

I disagree with those feeling 72 is town after that turn. I explained the reasons for the opposite Day 1.

Clark and Raya are still some of my favorites and Battle Mage is now also suspect to me.

Jamesv is weird...

No thoughts on Looker yet. Most of my thinking is still based off Homuras play which I will revisit.

Current areadlist scum to less scum.
72 confident here.
Raya
Clark
battle mage
Looker
Jamsv

I see a few potential scum pairings too.
72 and Clark or BM and Clark. I have no pairing for Raya currently.

Quick thoughts, I'm tired tonight and will check back in tomorrow.

I have to disagree, with 72 and Clark scumteam, and suggest Clark + Looker instead.
VOTE: ClarkBar

JamSV/Raya

---

• Flip preferences: 24% JamSV | 22% Raya | 19% Battle Mage | 18% ThirteenthJT | 9% ClarkBar | 8% 72offsuit
  • Jams's imgur post shows he voteparked a town slot and has avoided suspicion all game.
• I think it's interesting that this is a newbie game, but there are like no newbies.
  
• That was kind of a low blow - "His reads don't tend to be particularly accurate in general". My reads are as accurate as anybody else's.

VOTE: JamSV

This is a horrible looking readslist. And not because of the percentages, which are beyond irrelevant.

My solve right now would be more like Clarkbar-ThirteenthJT.

I'm not sure what to make of the high effort from 72o. It doesn't line up with his scum or town meta.

[Battle Mage]

I'm V/LA across all my games for the next 5 days. Aiming to login once per day but activity will be limited.

[Battle Mage]

I'm V/LA across all my games for the next 5 days. Aiming to login once per day but activity will be limited.

We'll try not to miss you too much bud.

normally i'd take that as a genuine nice thing to say, but given your play so far this game, I'm half expecting you to follow up with something like:

"I was being sarcastic BM, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out, you fat bastard!"

[Battle Mage]

I'm V/LA across all my games for the next 5 days. Aiming to login once per day but activity will be limited.

We'll try not to miss you too much bud.

normally i'd take that as a genuine nice thing to say, but given your play so far this game, I'm half expecting you to follow up with something like:

"I was being sarcastic BM, don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out, you fat bastard!"

Us over the pond aren't so vulgar, how dare you assume we are. After we hammer Clark then the incorrect scum partner I'll be coming for you.

over the pond? it says you're from England...

Although my main question is...will you let Clark hammer himself?

[Battle Mage]

then please go back and answer my questions

[Battle Mage]

how about you gun for Looker but also express intent on Clark to ratchet up the pressure?

not every englishman needs tea and scones as their avatar.

[Battle Mage]

The pond is a cute way of referring to the Atlantic.

@BM: of course I will, no need to get snippy. I just want to do it on a proper computer. Patience please.

not being snippy mate, probably just tired, soz

I think I know what your theory is BM! And perhaps not the one you may be pretending to have.

eh? please do tell me what you think my theory is? and what theory I'm pretending to have? and why you're shading me?

Clark - Can you talk me through this one? You started by saying 72o would only be scum with Pork, and after he votes you, you agree with TTJT's assessment he is top scumread? Or is there another part of the list you agree with?

Huh? I said (and maybe I could've been clearer) that my D1 scum-read of 72 was contingent on a scum-flip from Porkens. And in reading back I did kind of respond to your question regarding his scum list. I wouldn't publish an identical one by any means, but I didn't hate it. Sounds wishy-washy, but he may be close on this one. 72 is weird for me.

Here's what I hope to accomplish tomorrow. Making clear what my thought process has been since the Porkens flip and what rough rubric I'll be using to gauge my reads. Trying got get any clarity at all on what the case against me actually is right now. My push against Porkens? That's rich. Trying to establish why the hell everyone is trying to "solve" the game by guessing at scum partners.

Porkens flipped town though, so that implies 72o is town for you? I think TTJT had top 3 scumreads as 72o, you and somebody else. So I'm not clear what bits you agree with - a more comprehensive response would be genuinely helpful. It just seems to me like you're hedging your bets a bit.

That said, my vote on you is largely PoE, and wanting to test a theory.

You've never seen me alive on Day 2, but trying to pinpoint the scumpair is pretty standard fare.

Looker - yes, I have deliberately not expanded on my issue with your readslist.

[Battle Mage]

I think I'll just kinda do a rundown of players and update my thoughts on them. I'll try and be somewhat brief to avoid a huge wall of text. LL's absolutely insane (he was trolling, right?) play from yesterday makes the wagon against him a little tough to dissect. LL sunk that slot to a point where scum could happily and justifiably sit on that wagon/join the push. That makes things tough, but there are other things to consider in when updating reads.

I agree with this, and can't see any reason why scum wouldn't be on that wagon? unless they were of the mind they could push through another mislynch and keep that one on the backburner, but don't recall anything which looked like a serious counterwagon. It wasn't just LL, in some ways Porkens was worse, doing the same thing as LL did all over again (albeit slightly more discreetly). It was a horrible slot, although I had another one the same in a mini normal which just finished (with me and Raya) - a player who I was "96% sure" was scum from the way they played, flipped town Day 1, but luckily we still won.

Battle Mage:

Things get a little more murky here. Having both of his top scum-reads both flip town isn't without some comedy. Obviously Porkens was a wagon anyone could get on, but the Quick thing never really went over with me. BM accuses me of having my blinkers on, but I never found anything really compelling about scum!Quick. So is BM's push on Quick genuine or an attempt to test the waters for an alternate wagon? Well given the NK of Quick such an effort would have been for nothing. Also, BM NK'ing Quick after he made him an avatar would be pretty rude. Porkens votes BM near the end of D1, and some of his reasoning resonates with me. I have only one completed game, and in that scum came in as a replacement and did a bunch catch-up posts that were essentially fluff that appeared pro-town/high-effort. I think BM's takes are slightly better and he has some real takes, as horribly wrong as they turned out. Anyways, we get to D2. I appreciate that my posts and questions early on may have seemed a little cryptic, they weren't meant to be. I certainly don't think they were scummy. My 959 could certainly have been worded better, but I'm not ducking anything. I guess I'm walking you through 954 right now. Certainly don't think I was being dodgy. All of this is to say that BM's vote on me (a player he has consistently given at least a weak town-read to all game) seems to come out of nowhere and the reasons backing it seem thin. He says he has a theory he wants to test. I had a guess as to what that might be last night, but on second thought I might be projecting a bit there. Seems so many players have their little tests that seem to go unexplained. It may be connected to 988 and the pressure comment. Pressure to do what? What are asking of me that more pressure will deliver? I think this slot is a null for me for now, but I have some serious apprehension.

Quick was scummy for just cruising through the game, with a lazy tunnel on me, and without really engaging properly. In hindsight it was just lazy and uninterested town, and most of my case was predicated on an LL scum-flip anyway as the most obvious buddy. I won't rehash it unless it's particularly helpful, but I wasn't pushing some weak shizz.
Resent the assertion my comments on the game before I joined were just fluff - they were designed to help me get properly immersed into the game, and to invite discussion and give people an opportunity to challenge and engage with my views on what had happened to date. I've never done it before, but think it is a good thing to do, it's pretty lame when people replace in and basically ignore everything that's happened before. In future, I'd probably do it more succinctly. On my vote on you, it's probably fair that it's come out of nowhere, although you could level that challenge at me basically whatever I do - I mean, I shot my load a bit early on Day 1, and had largely town-blocked everyone else by default. I agree I don't have strong reasons, but don't always need them! I will obviously explain my theory when the time is right.

I'm only interested in lynching one of: Clarkbar, TTJT and 72offsuit today.

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

[Battle Mage]

Jamsv what are your thoughts on 72. You disagree with my assessment on them so I'm curious where you stand. Do you also have a readlist anywhere?

72 similar questions right now. How do you fe about Jamsv and Looker. Town v town. Scum v town? Scum v scum.

PS I am ready to change my vote to add pressure to a wagon but these questions will need to be answered first.

BM me and Clark is a wild theory. Did you ever look at rv's questioned I asked and Clark's answer? To be honest should be proof enough that didn't warn him how to not answer it.

Screw it. Let's test something out. I really feel Jamsv is pursuing a non issue instead of scumhunting. But maybe it's just me not understanding the percentage dispute and why it matters at all. It was just a different way to do a readlist in my eyes.

VOTE: Jamsv

I agree with you insofar as Jam's argument about percentages is a non-issue and doesn't matter. However that doesn't make Jam scum necessarily. If you wanted to add pressure to a wagon, why not join me in Clark country? I want to test my theory - we don't necessarily have to lynch him.

[Battle Mage]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

I'm sure I'm getting NKed tonight when you flip scum anyway, but they'll lynch your obvscum buddy Quick tomorrow thanks to me!

This tough for me, and somewhat WIFOMEY (apologies for using an acronym as a verb) but would scum NK their biggest scum-read? Anybody is free to weigh in here.

it's WIFOM really, but yeah, as a general rule I probably wouldn't because it basically pins you on 2 mis-elims and discredits your reads.

Having said that, he suspected me too, so 3 probable explanations for the NK:

1. I killed Quick because he suspected me.
2. Someone else killed Quick to make me look bad.
3. Someone killed Quick because they thought he was a PR, or he was an SE (although little evidence of either that I saw).

Why include yourself in the explanations....

Trying to be helpful by setting out all the possible options (obviously it isn't 1 but not everyone knows that).

But if you know it's not a possible option why even include it in YOUR list

I'm not sure why you're getting hung up on this? It wasn't a list 'for me', I was answering a question from Clark, a newbie whose alignment I do not know, in a newbie game. Do you think it would be more helpful or protown if I excluded it? This is a moot point, but I feel like you're going to continue to push it nonetheless because it's low effort shade.

[Battle Mage]

Screw it. Let's test something out. I really feel Jamsv is pursuing a non issue instead of scumhunting. But maybe it's just me not understanding the percentage dispute and why it matters at all. It was just a different way to do a readlist in my eyes.

VOTE: Jamsv

You might aswell have no read list if percentages are a read list. Having no read list is as bad as having a read list with no explanations. The entire time since he brought up his first set of percentages I've asked for an explanation for the percentages, he hasn't tried to explain any of them yet. One of the first posts I made with an issue had a whole point of explaining why the percentage read list is crap and needs explanations, TTJT and Looker ignored the end of that past, asking for explanations for specific percentages and have only focused on the why from that post. All he has to do is explain any of the percentages, ideally more than one, but any of them. He hasn't. This is all an attempt from him to delay so one of us can slip up and his %s can be more accurate.

He made a post about OMGUS ( don't know how to multi quote on mobile) in which he asks how his vote can be OMGUS - I'm the only one bothering to push him thoroughly for an explanation of his "read list", and he scum reads me for it nothing more to add to this sentence.

Once again, all he has to do is explain any of his %s, rather than just saying they're made up based off of votes, I already debunked than nonsense. The more he denies the more and more certain I am he is scum, we may aswell still have Homura because of how little impact he really is having.

I sort of respect this, as a BM-esque push (tunnelling to the extent you've lost sight of the big picture). You should try and meta Looker - I've played with him loads of times and he is always like this, as town and scum. I'd only be considering a Looker-elim before LyLo if nobody else looked scummy, which is not the case here. He will need to be considered as part of the mix tomorrow if we fail to hit scum today.

[Battle Mage]

Just wait Quick, you are going to love what I post. A game with both you and Looker in it is bound to be a joke.

It's because I quickhammered humaneatingmonkey. Genuine aggression or are you fucking with me?

Lucky

72o

Thirteen

Looker

Quick

JamSV

Clark

BM

Raya

I'm still sold on the BM slot being scum. Sorry BM, you've been dealt a bad hand. People can deny newbie tells as legitimate, but they still work. The only reason he's not a solid

red

is because of the possibilities of angles Raya has taken. I feel that Raya has to act the way she has if Blopp is scum, because she can't win the game alone once Blopp is eliminated. I didn't immediately switch from Blopp to Raya when posting my analysis on her slot because I was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but her continued pushing in bad faith, her constant attempts to buddy half the player list, and some of 72o's points on her slot have convinced me she's 100% scum. If Blopp (BM) is scum, Raya is

always

scum. The only case where Raya is scum and blopp (BM) is not is one where Raya took an incredibly aggressive position of hard defending town!Blopp while chainsaw pushing me in hopes of chain eliminating which ever one of us doesn't get eliminated D1. In that case, Clark is positioned with the highest partner equity for Raya. I decide this because of their early interactions with Raya and their latest ISO of Raya where Raya magically becomes town at the end of it. I think it's more likely that Clark is just new and still learning than that they are scumbuddies with Raya. I think newbie scum might be more likely to join their scumbuddy in pushing me. Maybe Clark should be higher up on the list of townies, I think he's only this low because in the small case where Raya is playing super aggressively and wasn't forced to by a newbie partner getting caught and bailing, she'd need a scumbuddy that's not Blopp (BM). Anyway, it's pretty much always Blopp (BM) / Raya.

The way you ordered your list is weird to me; why put Raya at the bottom if your chief suspect is Battle Mage? And you're voting Battle Mage but say Raya has the most scum equity.

Looker replaces Homura.

Hey Looker! Please tell me if I'm crazy about thinking Lucky is scum here and your thoughts on getting a proper claim since he claimed a TPR

Hey, Raya. Fuck LuckyLuciano. I'm pretty sure he's just faking his outrage because he has no other tools in his skillset as scum. Him faking a PR was weak.

---

• Currently, flip preferences are: 36% LuckyLuciano or Battle Mage | 26% 72offsuit, JamSV, or ThirteenthJT | 16% LicketyQuickety | 12% ClarkBar | 10% Raya.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Looker replaced Homura: Lurky as fuck. How can I read this?

I'm not lurky, you just have nothing better to do with your time. You made 72 posts in the course of a day. I have things to do, a job, and an occupation where I don't have access to my phone.

Spoiler:

Ok sorry about contributing to 10 pages today. I just finished my secodnnd read through and here’s my new spicy take:

Reya is ropebait and scum are setting up to mishang her.

El Town:
JamSV replaced individual
ClarkBar
LicketyQuickety (SE) replaced EchoVision
Raya36 (SE)
Porkens (SE) replaced LuckyLuciano

Scum are in:
Looker replaced Homura
72offsuit
Battle Mage replaced Blopp
TheThirteenthJT

(Now there is an alternate universe where Echo was scum with Blooper but that’s pretty tinfoil)

Anyway, could be shit, but there you have it.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

Flip preferences: 29% Porkens | 20% JamSV | 16% Raya | 14% ThirteenthJT or LicketyQuick | 12% Battle Mage | 9% 72offsuit | 0% ClarkBar

---

I've been working longer hours so I'm more irritated by the time I get home. Sorry. LuckyLuciano is not a bad person. His fakeclaim and AtE are still scummy, though.

He has you pretty high on the list since it started. I feel had you not been so high on his list you wouldn't have had any problems with it

Not all readlsts have explanations to it. I haven't seen you question BM or Clark for theirs.

The difference between BM / Clark and Looker, is that, even though BM / Clark haven't explained it inside the read list post, they've still explained some reads. Looker hasn't even done that. Not to mention, for reasons already stated, I want his reads more than everyone else's:

......... I can tell you what would be best for you and town, which would be explaining. You replaced into the game rather late, as such you've had plenty of time to read over the game, and should have one of the freshest outlooks on the game. I look forward to you being helpful for town and explaining yourself, or for you to give me more ammunition for a scum case against you.
UNVOTE: ClarkBar
VOTE: Looker

Why does replacing in late mean you have more time to read the game? The opposite should be true - it should be easier to have good reads if you've been there since the start. It's not clear why you think his reads would therefore be more valuable than anyone else's, which appears to be the point you're pressing with TTJT above?

@TTJT, do you not want him to explain any of the logic / processes behind his reads or not. It very much seems so that you don't.

I won't speak for TTJT, but personally I don't really care either way (no offence Looker!)

[Battle Mage]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

Ugh, looks like my guess about your theory was right after all. Good job on your soft-claim breadcrumbs btw, nice touch.

what was your guess?

[Battle Mage]

I am the cop, so it worked. I investigated the 13JT overnight. He's town.

I'm not sure if this is the best way to go about this, but we'll see.

VOTE: Battle Mage

Raya may still be scum, those little hints about who he doesn't want executed has his partner in it as well as somebody he want to pocket (Jam).

LOL that definitely wasn't my theory...

UNVOTE:

I need to re-evaluate the game (again).

[Battle Mage]

BM may have also been worried that I investigated him overnight (and it was a very close call) and wanted to discredit any claim I made about his alignment. More reason to pin down if I had a PR, what it was, and hopefully discredit any claim I might make.

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred. Would be helpful to get explicit confirmation from others that nobody is disputing the claim (I'm not). I can give more detail behind the theory in that case as I won't be giving anything away.

[Battle Mage]

I don't get why one would opt to do 13JT over others.

In hindsight BM was the right choice. This is my first time in this position, I made a choice and I stuck to it.

yeah especially in this game a N1 cop clear would have been helpful

[Battle Mage]

I need to re-evaluate the game (again).

So you weren't bread-crumbing a PR?

Now we have to believe that a player of BM's experience went 3/3 on townies and put one in a position where they felt it necessary to claim. If that's the case then I guess this:

I don't want to scare you, but I'm on a rich vein of scumhunting form at the moment!

has come to a disastrous end.

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

[Battle Mage]

my theory was actually the complete opposite - I was pretty sure you

weren't

a PR and wanted to see if you would try and fakeclaim one if you were under enough pressure, or if you would claim VT which would get you some extra towncred.

So you pick a player that you had never put any pressure on and start a push against them to see what they claim, and a VT claim would be towncred? What? What kind of gambit is that? It makes no sense.

calm down dude, I get that you're pissed, but it wasn't pure randomness. As I said, my theory was that Jam and Raya were masons, which meant you had to be vanilla, but I thought if you were scum you might try and claim a PR to save yourself, and so you claiming vanilla would be a decent indicator you were more likely town. Obviously from Jam's reaction, my mason theory was wrong, so it didn't have much positive value at all.

[Battle Mage]

Go read BM's reads/interactions with Raya and Looker. Read how he talks about them. Why is he defending Looker from Jam (who makes good points) and how is BM town-reading Raya all of a sudden?

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

If BM wins out his counter-claim look back at this. The partner will be in this mix. And I personally don't think it's Jam.

I have literally just explained this. I thought Raya and Jam were masons, and Looker...is Looker.

What do you mean by "win out his counter-claim"? I haven't counter-claimed anything.

[Battle Mage]

I was teasing it with the cop emoji only, but no I'm not a PR. I deliberately wanted you to claim because my theory (now presumably wrong) was that Jam and Raya were masons, based on their reaction to the LL shenanigans. Namely, they both conspicuously didn't buy the "I'm a PR" claim, which only really made sense if they were masons (and would know 100% it was BS), and they also hadn't been gunning for each other.

So you were role-fishing instead of scum-hunting? Yeah, I believe that to be true.

I was scum-hunting by seeking to draw out a fakeclaim. You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

[Battle Mage]

BM, let me get this straight: You pushed my wagon (and why me in particular?) in order to see if I would claim so that I would either claim VT and get town-cred, or I would claim a PR and Raya and Jam would have to out themselves in order to counter it. And you couldn't see how this little theory of yours could go badly? I don't believe that a player of your experience would do something so reckless with such flawed logic in a newbie game.

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o, but TTJT is very capable of fakeclaiming as town which would have caused all manner of issues. I figured if you were town you'd claim vanilla, and if you didn't claim vanilla you would probably be scum (and obviously I'd get an indication from Jam/Raya reaction to confirm that was the case). It wouldn't rely on them outting themselves, as I could push and draw the attention on myself, and they could give subtle hints, and we'd have a good townblock but I could also draw the NK and get us into a strong position with 2 conf-towns in late game.

The logic isn't flawed, apart from presumably the fact that I was wrong about the masons thing, and then got unlucky with you being a Cop. Yes it's not a stellar game for me.

No idea what you think the motivation is for scum-BM to make that play (where the sole purpose is to townblock someone if they don't fakeclaim), although I can sympathise with you thinking it's dumb play from your perspective, and with the benefit of hindsight.

[Battle Mage]

This doesn't mean I'm assuming both scum are necessarily in this block, but I don't currently want to push Raya, Looker or Jam today for reasons I will not disclose.

In what world is this not a cop soft-claim? You suggest you have privileged information and use a COP emoji at the end. It was bait, and I had to take it because enough people scum-read me and I got to E-1 fast.

I was trying to:

A. Hint to them that I know they're masons so they don't have to explicitly counter-claim a PR claim or out themselves today unless necessary
B. Leave a crumb for a subsequent day in case I died tonight and it could be helpful to them in LyLo that I was vouching for that pairing.
C. Hint to scum that I might be a PR in order to draw the NK tonight.

Yes I can understand you claiming, and you were right to do it.

[Battle Mage]

You can bash me all you want, that's fine, but there was method to my madness.

I'm not bashing you, I like you quite a bit and hope to be in future games with you. In this case though you are scum. I don't believe your little theory. I have provided the simpler explanation. I think that if people read through D2 again (it's not a lot) they will see where I'm coming from.

I like you too, and hopefully you don't take the lesson from this that I always completely suck as town.

I'm not scum here - I suggest you give some thought to how my play possibly makes more sense as scum than town, and I'm happy to discuss it. I've quite clearly crumbed what I was doing, and it's quite obvious I did NOT think you were the cop, and I thought Raya and Jam were masons (which incidentally I've been crumbing since Day 1).

[Battle Mage]

if no cc, this means 2 scum in:

Raya
Looker
72o
Jam

[Battle Mage]

I won't have time to respond to everything - I'll make the effort here although I'm not sure it will achieve much as you've gone full tunnel on me.

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o

You pretty much town-read me all D1 and then all of a sudden I'm in your top two scum candidates?

I basically town read everyone Day 1 apart from my 2 scumreads.

TTJT is very capable of fakeclaiming as town which would have caused all manner of issues.

I'm offended at the suggestion that scum!me would not be capable of a similar fakeclaim.

I haven't seen it from you - doesn't mean you're not capable, but I do know for a fact that TTJT is.

I figured if you were town you'd claim vanilla, and if you didn't claim vanilla you would probably be scum

So, the thought of me possibly being a PR never crossed your mind? The potential risk of outing a PR (or two) in this gambit wasn't at all a concern?

I explained earlier that I was consciously trying to avoid a situation where the PRs needed to claim, so no it didn't occur to me as being a risk at all. Of course, I was aware I could have been wrong, but I'd basically made my mind up, and even if I was wrong, the chances of you being a PR were still not that high. And yes, the thought of you being a PR never crossed my mind. I don't even know now what hints/crumbs you're referring to. It's fairly obvious that I didn't think you were a PR. And if I was scum who thought you were a PR, why would I be pushing you to claim? I'd have just killed you at night. You're essentially suggesting I was open-wolfing to the extreme - I can buy that you think I could potentially do that, but it's not very likely as it would be a high risk, needlessly conspicuous gambit which would obviously bite me on the ass when my credibility was already low because of flips. There is no scum motivation here.

(and obviously I'd get an indication from Jam/Raya reaction to confirm that was the case). It wouldn't rely on them outting themselves, as I could push and draw the attention on myself, and they could give subtle hints, and we'd have a good townblock but I could also draw the NK and get us into a strong position with 2 conf-towns in late game.

This bit is so convoluted and reachy it verges on the embarrassing. I love you BM, but this is some real nonsense.

It's not nonsense at all. It's completely logical - the only issue here is that it relied on my assumption about the masons being right, which it wasn't.

No idea what you think the motivation is for scum-BM to make that play (where the sole purpose is to townblock someone if they don't fakeclaim), although I can sympathise with you thinking it's dumb play from your perspective, and with the benefit of hindsight.

I've already explained what your scum-motives were. You're smart and experienced, and something about the way I engaged at the top of D2 pinged you that I might be a PR. That's a problem for scum: maybe I'm a cop and investigated you or your partner? And so your read of me all of a sudden changed and you built a wagon on me based on lame reasoning. You introduced the idea of a theory and breadcrumbed a PR of your own for the purpose of discrediting me in case I did in fact claim a PR.

What you didn't take into account is that I recognized this attempt early and called it out before you had the opportunity to counter-claim. And now you're reaching

hard

to spin it into some bizarre and confusing POE gambit.

I feel like Velma at the end of a Scooby-Doo episode explaining the plot and having all the pieces fit together nicely.

As above, if I was scum and thought you were a PR, why would I want you to claim? ESPECIALLY if I thought you were a cop, because in claiming, you'd be guaranteed to be protected at night by a doctor if there is one.

And as you say, by forcing you to claim it would mean you would reveal your result. Clearly scum-BM would prefer a Cop to NOT claim, so he can kill them before they reveal results.

Additionally, if I was scum and thought you were a cop, and investigated me or my partner (and you havent really explained to me why you think I would have thought either of those things) I would sooner be claiming first with a guilty on you, rather than pushing you to claim a guilty on me and ccing you. Taking the initiative is valuable.
Although in reality, I'd do neither, because

Spoiler:

I don't play recklessly as scum, and wouldn't run a gambit which would be guaranteed to get me killed before the end.

I've been quite open about the weakness of the reasoning, so using this as an argument is hardly a revelation. I obviously wouldn't have lynched you with that reasoning, I just wanted to see if you'd fakeclaim, although that's all completely redundant now.

I don't even understand what "theory" I could have been inventing? And doesn't the fact I haven't done something like that to cc you, largely invalidate your whole rationale anyway? Unless you're so consumed by ego that you think you supposedly "calling me out" (again, must have missed that...) would have deterred me from continuing with such a play if that was my intention?

What you refer to as a "bizarre and confusing" POE gambit, is a staple of my game nowadays, and it can be very effective. I can't refer to ongoing games, but there is nothing to stop you reading.

I think the fundamental problem is you're annoyed that I've outted you as cop, and you aren't thinking objectively and rationally about what that means for my alignment.

Please do me the courtesy of actually giving this some thought and reading and responding to my points above.

[Battle Mage]

Lol. At the time of my I r winnar post above, BM was logged on, as per the bottom of the "board index" page, which lists the players currently logged on.

At the time of this post, he is no longer on.

Zero posts after logging in and seeing he has votes on him.

Scum.

seriously?? I was responding in detail to a post as above.

And in any case, I'm V/LA (i.e. I may have time to see something and not respond because I'm busy).

I'm done for today if this is the kinda crap I'm contending with.

[Battle Mage]

jesus christ. i'm alive and all my suspects are dead

and town

.

initial thoughts: Jam-scum wouldn't have made that weird play yesterday around the Porkens wagon. Too conspicuous and odd for no reason.
Raya's posts at end of day had conviction and didn't leave herself open to a Porkens town-flip. Felt legit.
Must be at least 1 scum on the Porkens wagon because there was no reason not to be, therefore must be TTJT and/or Looker.
need to revisit 72offsuit as i think i basically locktowned him based on pork being scum.

This is one of the most faked read-progressions on a player's slot I have seen to date.

which bit? it wasn't really a read progression, so much as a read overhaul. And again, I was making a point of townblocking the people I thought were masons without actually saying I thought they were masons.

actually it doesn't look like there's anything else of value to respond to anyway, so that's me up to date.

If I am potentially getting lynched today (still waiting for a good reason why), would be helpful to wait until I can post some final reads, vote and stuff. Although can understand if nobody gives a shit at this point.

[Battle Mage]

Still 0 posts suggesting why I'm in your lynch pool.

6 players

Raya-Jam - masons

meant 2 vanilla, 2 scum from:

Looker, 72o, Clark, TTJT

So it's complete PoE. Obviously I was wrong, again, with the masons, so it's all completely redundant, but that was my logic. Given I've stated you were lower on my list than Clark or TTJT, I have no idea why you sound like you're trying to OMGUS me.

[Battle Mage]

How am I OMGUSing you? Please explain.

I'm certain you don't actually need me to explain this, but Clark hasn't come back to me yet, so I'll bite.

Your vote on me appears to be because you're skeptical of my suspicion on you. Certainly, the crux of it seems to be about my response to you on Day 2, which is slightly anti-climactic after your comprehensive ISO analysis of me earlier. The reality is that I haven't been that suspicious of you at all (not sure if that's a good or bad thing) and you ended up in my possible-lynchbloc by default because of POE (ruled out who I thought were masons, and Looker largely as a policy play). I've been perfectly candid about that throughout.

Have I misunderstood your rationale here?

[Battle Mage]

Lol. At the time of my I r winnar post above, BM was logged on, as per the bottom of the "board index" page, which lists the players currently logged on.

At the time of this post, he is no longer on.

Zero posts after logging in and seeing he has votes on him.

Scum.

seriously?? I was responding in detail to a post as above.

And in any case, I'm V/LA (i.e. I may have time to see something and not respond because I'm busy).

I'm done for today if this is the kinda crap I'm contending with.

No. Your name DISAPPEARED OFF THE LOGGED IN PLAYERS list,
BEFORE you posted.

As if you realised you had logged in without hiding status, so logged out and then relogged in.
Scummy +++

This is factually untrue and self-evidently untrue given I posted a huge post, seconds after you falsely declared I'd disappeared off the site.

I have no idea about how the "logged in players" list works - if you're being straight, perhaps it doesn't record you as being online anymore if you are 'inactive' which I would have been if just typing? Also I've never hided my login status - and have no idea what you're suggesting my motivation would be to do so, given it's quite obvious I was responding, as I eventually did. This is a ludicrously weak avenue to be pursuing, and stands in stark contrast to your detailed ISO of me earlier where it was pretty obvious I was town, barring some implausible swerve.

[Battle Mage]

As if you realised you had logged in without hiding status, so logged out and then relogged in.

This isn't the only game he's in though. And hiding status isn't scummy

it's not even true though

Agree with 1136. I believe there is a more legit and compelling reason to be on BM's wagon.

I haven't seen one?

[Battle Mage]

At the risk of seemingly always agreeing with Jam I want to weigh in here...

This site seems to be brimming with players who like to foster some kind of persona/playstyle for... reasons. Maybe to have a chaotic meta, probably because they think they're super intelligent and cool. In both Newbie games I've been most slots got replaced, probably because of my toxic, insulting, and belligerent tone. Those slots have been filled by players who are

not

newbies. In some cases those players have completely hijacked these games with play whose purpose seems more to serve their own ego than their win-condition.

And maybe they're right, and I don't appreciate their brilliance. Regardless, this is a newbie game. In theory players should be here to learn the basics. Looker posts infrequently, does not respond to basic questions, and does not use reasoning when presenting reads or placing votes. He isn't even reading the thread. To a new player (or any reasonable person) his behavior is anti-town, and verging on trolling. And that leads to this problem:

Why ask him to stop? Just vote and kick him.

At this point in the game we should be voting for people for reasons outside of "that's the way they are". If Looker is town he is providing wonderful cover for scum. And given that this is a newbie game I think that's unfair.

I think this is an unfair assessment. I've played seemingly dozens of games with Looker, and he's one of a minority of people who always strives to be respectful and courteous. He's basically a good dude and doesn't flip out, or get overly emotional. For that reason, I would happily have Looker in all my games (although not sure he'd say the same given our history!). I don't think his frequency of posting is an issue - I've not long finished a game with TTJT where we had an SE who deliberately and openly lurked his way to a victory as scum with his only posts being versions of "Oops, got prodded again, will post later". This has been a particularly active game. Generally Looker responds to most things I think, although he's a bit of a maverick too. You won't find many people with more experience with him than me, and I can't tell scum-Looker from town-Looker. The inference that his playstyle gets him lynched early is factually incorrect - Looker normally survives late into games, which is why I adopt a blanket policy across all games of "deal with Looker in LyLo" unless there's a strong reason to the contrary. Incidentally he's the sort of player I'd be checking if I was a cop. I also don't think Looker is an ego player at all - especially compared to someone like me. If we're talking about a good example for newbies, I think Looker has some very positive attributes, without perhaps being the prototype mafia player. In fact, if Looker is town he's only providing cover for scum because he's being pursued with a silly case about using %s in lieu of a more standard readslist.

[Battle Mage]

Ok BM. Let's say that you are town. What do you think are the best two options for an execution today and why?

I'm going to re-read some bits tomorrow when I have proper thinking time, and will come back to this then. I'm not sure you should really care too much for my reads though, given my form here?

[Battle Mage]

Also ps clark maybe next time you are cop don't out a town unless 100%needed.

This is my first rodeo in this position, and I'm sorry if I endangered you needlessly. I was concerned that I was going to be hammered at any second and felt that it was important for town to have that information. It would have been annoying to see a big D3 push on you from the graveyard, like my entire role ability was for not.

I guess I'll check back in a few hours. This game sure did die. Also, it's my birthday (thank you thank you) and as BM and Jam know I'm a bit of a drinker. So...if there is something to reply to later this evening there's a

slim

chance I'll be a little, uh, loose.

I don't think there's any question that you were right to confirm your results once you'd claimed, as it narrows down the pool, and we don't know if there is a protective role or not (if there is, you could potentially justify not confirming the read today on the basis you definitely could tomorrow).

Happy birthday dude!

[Battle Mage]

How am I OMGUSing you? Please explain.

I'm certain you don't actually need me to explain this, but Clark hasn't come back to me yet, so I'll bite.

Your vote on me appears to be because you're skeptical of my suspicion on you. Certainly, the crux of it seems to be about my response to you on Day 2, which is slightly anti-climactic after your comprehensive ISO analysis of me earlier. The reality is that I haven't been that suspicious of you at all (not sure if that's a good or bad thing) and you ended up in my possible-lynchbloc by default because of POE (ruled out who I thought were masons, and Looker largely as a policy play). I've been perfectly candid about that throughout.

Have I misunderstood your rationale here?

I did a whole ISO on you, where I concluded you wre null leaning scum
Since then you ahve scummed it up.
And now you say I';m OMGUSing you. lol.
Total garbage.

More votes on BM needed.

I read the ISO in full. It was full of pretty convincing arguments as to why I'm town, and some conjecture about why I could be scum because I'm wacky and you know I can make unusual plays as scum (which is perfectly fair). On balance, the conclusion I would draw based on your assessment and evidence, is that I'm probably town. So I agree with your analysis, almost to a fault, but your conclusion diverges from the evidence it's based on.

I haven't said you're OMGUSing me - I said that you

think

you're OMGUSing me because you mistakenly thought I was shading you when I wasn't.

Would you be able to explain how I have "scummed it up" since your analysis? And maybe helpful to explain why you go to the trouble of such a detailed and thorough review, only to basically ignore all that work and start pushing for me to be lynched based on some crap about logging out without posting, which is a fail on so many levels?

[Battle Mage]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11957546

Past games are irrelevant, every game is different, quoting previous games or going based off of meta is lazy. No offence.

This is definitely not true. Meta can be hugely useful if used right.

[Battle Mage]

Why you: Well there were 3 options really. Probably you and TTJT would have been my top scumreads ahead of 72o

You pretty much town-read me all D1 and then all of a sudden I'm in your top two scum candidates?

I basically town read everyone Day 1 apart from my 2 scumreads.

That's cool, but if your read switches from a town-read to a scum-read I think it's nice to say why. Maybe give the player in question something to work with? Have a dialogue?

As noted, I didn't have a strong scum-read on you at all (nor was I feeling minded that it would be helpful to do so, given how poor my reads had been to date). I did quite clearly acknowledge this, without trying to make it seem like a complete farce, which would have resulted in no meaningful pressure and you not claiming, which was the purpose of the gambit. Try and see from my perspective - I'd just blown my load on Day 1 with 2 nailed on scumreads both of which flipped town. I was therefore inclined to change tack and look for a mechanics based solve, rather than going back to the well again, especially as I thought the masons were going to be a proverbial ace-in-the-hole.

Tldr; as a general matter of courtesy and scumhunting, you're absolutely right. This was an exceptional circumstance, and you could argue I was trying to be too clever and failing.

If I get lynched today for being consistently wrong about everything reads-wise, I'm fairly cool with that, although it hasn't been the argument presented by anyone to date.
To be clear, because I think this point has been lost somewhat - the wagon on you would not have resulted in a lynch on you unless you claimed PR

and

the players I thought were masons indicated you were scum for doing so, allowing me to lead that charge (i.e. unless I had some reasonable assurance you were fakeclaiming). As a result, the criticism of me for failing to engage in dialogue, isn't really relevant here as I wasn't actually planning to lynch you based on anything which had happened to date. It's not a completely outlandish or risky gambit if your reads are half-decent, and obviously mine weren't. It doesn't risk a mislynch, it shouldn't out a PR (if reads are decent). It COULD result in a false positive, although clearly I wouldnt have taken you as literally conftown for claiming vanilla, so that isn't really a problem.

It could only be considered anti-town in the sense that it outted a cop unnecessarily.

There's no reason for me to make an aggressive play like that as scum, where my stock is at rock-bottom anyway - although this bit is somewhat WIFOMy, it's also just reality that it would be way too conspicuous and high risk with too little reward (and if you were to disagree with Jam and look at my meta, you won't find a BM-scum game where I've done anything like this). In my 3 completed scumgames this year, I got lynched in one for lurking, I survived another despite lurking, and in the final one I fakeclaimed Cop on Day 2 to bus both of my partners (one of whom was 72o). The key thing with the latter, is it was a bold play with HIGH reward, because it basically made me near to conf-town and I was able to win the game. And you could argue the risk was fairly low given I knew I was going to be proved right.

As above, if I was scum and thought you were a PR, why would I want you to claim? ESPECIALLY if I thought you were a cop, because in claiming, you'd be guaranteed to be protected at night by a doctor if there is one.

I don't want to get into a WIFOM quagmire. Why would town!you want me to claim? I think my argument for your scum motivation is stronger and simpler than yours.

This bit isn't WIFOM really - it's basic logic. What is simple, isn't necessarily right - and particularly true where I'm concerned (as TTJT can attest). You argued that I suspected you were a Cop. If I was scum, and suspected you were a Cop, I would NOT want you to claim. Although you hypothesised I might have been expecting the claim, and wanted to pre-empt you or force us into a 1v1. First issue with that it, it wasn't the immediate daystart when this happened, so I can't see why I would have been expecting a claim. Additionally, it would also be a completely stupid strategy, given I wouldn't have actually known your results and what I was contending with (i.e. if you had a guilty on my partner, I'd be literally throwing the game in this scenario). Lastly, as noted, if I was going to do this strategy you suggest, why didn't I actually do it? When your hypothetical scenario played out, I did not do anything like what you suggested I intended to do. Even aside from the above, the idea that as scum I would push for a cop to claim because I think he has a guilty on me and I want to basically cc and undermine him (and again, I have no idea where you think that is borne out in the thread), and then after he claims, not cc him, is completely ridiculous. I'd be offended you think I suck that bad as scum, if it wasn't for how bad this game has gone for me as town.

I'm not saying this makes me the towniest conftown ever. But I am saying that there is no organic scum motivation for me to push for you to claim there, so it is in fact a towntell even without the added weight of meta.

What you refer to as a "bizarre and confusing" POE gambit, is a staple of my game nowadays, and it can be very effective. I can't refer to ongoing games, but there is nothing to stop you reading.

Would you be willing to point me to a completed game where this gambit was effectively used? I find it difficult to believe that pushing a wagon on a player to see what kind of claim they make is a tried and true winning method. The risks are enormous. The most obvious of which is what happened here, which is you force an actual PR to claim. What if scum!me made a VT claim? Then you'd be giving town-cred to scum. Your gambit also relies on there being 2 masons, and there is only a 22% (see Looker, percentages can mean something!) chance of that being the case in this game. It also relies on your suspicion of who those masons might be to be correct. And in turn it relies on them to somehow know to "signal" to you that a fake claim had been made without outing themselves as PR's. All the while leaving open the possibility of a quick hammer or an "oopsie-poopsie" hammer on a potential town slot.

Unless I'm fundamentally missing something I cannot see the risk/reward ratio of your gambit to be in town's favor. I do see what the goal of the gambit is, I just can't see that goal justifying the myriad of risks and potential misfires.

I was very confident on there being masons, and the statistical odds weren't a factor - it was predominantly based on their reaction to LL's "I'm a PR" claim. They both completely disbelieved it, and didn't seem to give it much thought at all. In almost all cases, it's pretty standard practice to avoid lynching a claimed PR on Day 1 if at all possible, and it's pretty normal for people to give them the benefit of the doubt (really nothing about LL's play to that point suggested he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt). The fact they didn't do that, made me think they must be masons, as masons would be the only scenario in which each of them would know 100% that the PR claim was fake.

As an approach, there is risk, but generally if timed right and based on a reasonable expectation about the role structure (which could be based on having a PR myself, or some insight about the mechanic etc), it is +EV i think. As noted above, I'm not scared of a false-positive - it's possible to think someone is more likely to be town, without completely taking them out of the equation. I also don't think them signalling would have been an issue - I figured that essentially it's what they did on Day 1, and scum didn't figure it out then as they didn't NK one of them. All it would have needed was a bit of lowkey but clear skepticism about the claim - not a precise science but again, didn't really worry me.

All that being said, whether the gambit is a good one or not, isn't really the crux of what we're discussing. The question is, is it something I would do as scum or town? And how likely as either alignment? A bit of deduction is required here which goes beyond the right or wrong of the play, and thinks about the motivation for town-BM and scum-BM to act as I have done.

There's a perfect example of this exact gambit which I can't currently refer to, however the rules are clear that you would be able to find and read if you so chose, and you may find that helpful.

On recent completed games:

I planned a gambit in my last one with TTJT (Newbie 2009) to fakeclaim cop (as town) in order to get control of the lynch for the following day (with no mechanical idea of who the scum actually were). It never got used because I got NKed. TTJT can however confirm that was the plan. I'd argue that was higher risk than this.

In Large Theme 'Jigsaw's Revenge', I fakeclaimed a PR in order to strengthen a case against another player I believed was scum, based on the setup mechanics.

In Large Theme 'Twice Baked Wrestling', I fakeclaimed Day-vig which resulted in somebody claiming (although that wasn't really my intention).

Please do me the courtesy of actually giving this some thought and reading and responding to my points above.

I'm giving it thought, relax. I didn't respond to everything due to time purposes/I feel I already addressed it. But if there is something glaring you want me to discuss I'm happy to do so.

I think I've covered most of it above, but I would also come back to this point:

Additionally, if I was scum and thought you were a cop, and investigated me or my partner (and you havent really explained to me why you think I would have thought either of those things) I would sooner be claiming first with a guilty on you, rather than pushing you to claim a guilty on me and ccing you. Taking the initiative is valuable.
Although in reality, I'd do neither, because

Spoiler:

I don't play recklessly as scum, and wouldn't run a gambit which would be guaranteed to get me killed before the end.

[Battle Mage]

So I'm not defending BM here because it does look bad. Is his position plausible? Yes. I was actually thinking scum or pr for Clark. The way BM was pushing made me think he was breadcrumbing a PR and wanted to test out Clark's reaction to l-1. So I voted. Anyways I'm trying to think of all possibilities to this but gambits like usually end up in an elimnation and at this point BM just make best to help us town out.

Anyways updated rankings scum to less scummy
BM
72
Raya
Looker
Jamsv
Clark
Also ps clark maybe next time you are cop don't out a town unless 100%needed.

My vote on BM is pending Raya cc.

Also did not like Lookers vote on Raya after pushing Jamsv. Potential last attempt to divert wagon but I actually think it's too obvious for it to be really the case. If BM flips town Looker is scum and we go Looker 72. Maybe Raya.

I'm going to put more combos now that we confirm no masons. I suggest we all do this now to make a potential Elo easier.

Dude, please read post 1149 and tell me how you don't think this is completely typical of my town play, and what you know first-hand of my penchant for a gambit

If you're voting me here, I'm basically done I think. Despite not seeing any convincing reason, I figure my goose is cooked with 2 prob conf-towns voting for me, only 4 to lynch, and before 2 days of successive LyLo.

[Battle Mage]

I somehow missed 1149. I think it got bumped.

BM, if you are scum then when this game is over I will PM you my address so you can send me a bottle of your favorite booze as consultation for fooling me and causing me to lose yet another game. I think you have me in your corner for now.

Posting from mobile so I’ll leave it at that for now. Fuck.

Well, at least something has gone right for me this game! Now the actual work begins.

I'm still more convinced: Re: raya/dunnstral over BM, but if most of everyone prefers BM thats fine.

what? you're the only person voting for me and Dunnstral is already at -1, so this is a bit odd.

[Battle Mage]

I think my whole case and how reactionary Lucky acted in response is enough on its own

I don't believe the claim at all. Scum ALWAYS claims a PR in this situation. So why are we just blindly trusting Lucky's PR claim when we don't even know the specific role and can just get by without a counterclaim

Lucky Luciano WAS fakeclaiming, though, no? The logic was correct

^Unsure how to feel about this argument. If you do know a pushed slot is town and is doomed (again, LL really did this game a disservice) then all the town cred is there for the taking. It's like a white knight thing.

This is particularly interesting - as noted, this is why I assumed Raya had to be a mason because she was so certain about the PR claim being fake. I don't really understand continuing to push LL here in the absence of that knowledge. Generally speaking, a PR claim should result in a moment of pause and reflection for town. Is it AI that Raya didn't do that? It seems an aggressive line to take either way. I have recently finished a game with Raya-scum, so will try and compare later.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: BM

All aboard the BM wagon!

Choo choo

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I don't have lots of time tonight. 72o pulled a similar move on me in our only other game which went to LyLo (where we were both town and subsequently lost), so it's not completely certain he's scum. That being said, he hasn't actually given any reason for voting me, so I don't think there's any prospect of persuading him otherwise, and it makes my decision a no-brainer!

VOTE: 72offsuit

I think it's highly likely he's scum anyway given the quickhammer on Dunnstral yesterday before I had a chance to check my meta on him, which also prevented TTJT (who is now 100% conftown) from protecting the cop. And the early vote on me, also without discussion, which would throw the game for himself if he was town.

Hard to see why 72o-town would suddenly not care about analysis/discussion, when previously he has been very thoughtful and detailed in his efforts - easily the most I've ever seen him try. Which is NAI in itself, but the lack of consistency seems more like scum who has open-wolfed and taken one for the team, as opposed to town who spontaneously decided they don't care anymore. And #1189?

It then becomes a question of whether it's 72o-Looker or 72o-Jam. Would welcome TTJT's thoughts on that in particular.

[Battle Mage]

I'll be courteous though and let them respond and try to persuade me otherwise.

72o-scum for reasons above, plus his paranoia about me suspecting him yesterday when I didn't, and failure to provide an argument for voting me (despite being cogniscent of all the reasons I'm town), beyond a proven-false claim about me lurking.

Also voting patterns indicate 72o-scum more than BM-scum. Day 1 final wagon was pretty much unanimous, and so 72o didn't need to be on it to get the mislynch. Yesterday wagon was definitely not unanimous and harder for scum to fashion a mislynch, and 72o was on it and hammered before discussion could finish, and despite very clearly trying to set me up as the other mislynch required for scum-win. He only quick-hammered when momentum against me had diminished.

[Battle Mage]

Ok so it definitely can't be Jam-Looker as I'd be dead. I think Jam-72o, given this:

There's something important to note.

At the moment

, TTJT is conf town. Unless if Looker wants to pop up and counter claim.

Jam trying to cast doubt on TTJT claim - despite the fact the cop cleared him yesterday and he's 100% proven town. Why would he be encouraging Looker to counter-claim, when TTJT has to be telling the truth?

But seriously TTJT - 72o is 100% conf-scum, let's actually hit one at least.

[Battle Mage]

EBWOP
I might be absolutely terrible at reading players, very stubborn in terms of tunnel vision voting, and still very inexperienced, thankfully however, it seems vacuum Mafia Mechanics are what I'm good at.

Everything you posted was obvious, with the exception of the bit where you tried to persuade me to move my vote off 72o. Likewise, if 72o was town and not your partner, why would he listen to you and move his vote off me?

The "I might be absolutely terrible at reading players" is a loose appeal to emotion, to invoke a feeling of sympathetic town - actually your reads and voting record hasn't been so bad this game, compared to say, me, and you're also a very good player for a newbie, so I don't buy this as genuine.

[Battle Mage]

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I think it means that Battle Mage is scum. It's interesting that you'd still vote for me, though.

Mas claim time. I am the town doctor. I was bout to warn you guys not to close out the day because I would w unavailable to send in a night action until today. I'll respond after work

That's not very believable. Why wouldn't you just ask for an extension? Who all did you protect?

---

• I should've stuck to my guns yesterday and stayed on JamSV. Pending ThirteenthJT's response, I'm thinking BM + JamSV. That would explain BM trying to take up for my playstyle yesterday.

VOTE: Battle Mage

This is really bad. You think because 72o came out of the blocks attacking me, after quickhammering yesterday, both before I could give my view, means I'm scum and he's town!? Gimme a break man, you're better than that.

And casting doubt on TTJT's claim, like Jam did? He is obviously the Doctor, he's conftown, and would have no reason to lie. And I know he was legit v/la across all games over the weekend.

[Battle Mage]

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I think it means that Battle Mage is scum. It's interesting that you'd still vote for me, though.

Mas claim time. I am the town doctor. I was bout to warn you guys not to close out the day because I would w unavailable to send in a night action until today. I'll respond after work

That's not very believable. Why wouldn't you just ask for an extension? Who all did you protect?

---

• I should've stuck to my guns yesterday and stayed on JamSV. Pending ThirteenthJT's response, I'm thinking BM + JamSV. That would explain BM trying to take up for my playstyle yesterday.

VOTE: Battle Mage

He probably got role blocked. ClarkBar investigated him and TTJT came up town. Vanilla Townie would have no reason to claim Doctor here. NGL though, I'm impressed by your distancing attempt. If I were you though, I'd try very hard to get me hammed not BM. My previous post explained that its me or you, and BattleMage of 72offsuit. TTJT is smart enough to understand that. As such you really should start scraping for a case against me.
However, I have a wild observation. Looker doesn't actually think BM is scum at all. If he did, he would never have unvoted, as town, who cares if scum is quick hammered? His 2 posts were attempts at distancing. BM + Looker are the scum duo. D3 we hammer Looker, D4 we hammer Battle Mage, town wins. Thanks Looker.

He said he didn't submit an action - how do you figure he got roleblocked?

I'd draw the opposite conclusion on Looker's unvote. Uncertainty in LyLo is pro-town. But his justification for voting me was so empty anyway.

Bottom line is I don't know who it is out of Jam and Looker, but I'm sure of 72o.

[Battle Mage]

EBWOP
I might be absolutely terrible at reading players, very stubborn in terms of tunnel vision voting, and still very inexperienced, thankfully however, it seems vacuum Mafia Mechanics are what I'm good at.

Everything you posted was obvious, with the exception of the bit where you tried to persuade me to move my vote off 72o. Likewise, if 72o was town and not your partner, why would he listen to you and move his vote off me?

The "I might be absolutely terrible at reading players" is a loose appeal to emotion, to invoke a feeling of sympathetic town - actually your reads and voting record hasn't been so bad this game, compared to say, me, and you're also a very good player for a newbie, so I don't buy this as genuine.

My reads and voting record hasn't been so bad this game? I've voted for / have been threatening to vote for 3 people. ClarkBar, Porkens, Looker. In your world, they're all town. Voting and scum reading town isn't a good record. This is probably a slip

to be honest

.

"to be honest" - vintage honesty scumtell.

And no, not a slip - you voted to eliminate Porkens on Day 1, really just to screw with Clark, and you (like me) were the only ones not on the Dunnstral mislynch yesterday. Ultimately we haven't flipped a scum yet, so it's hard to say anyone has a great record, but yours hasn't been any worse than anybody elses. As noted, I was wrong about Porkens and Quick on Day 1, and Day 2 I accidentally outted the cop and was wrong about you and Raya being masons. My record is clearly worse than yours by your own admission - from your perspective, 1 of your 3 suspects all game would be scum. And even then, my voting record isn't as bad as 72o in terms of actual lynches.

Please tell me again why you thought it necessary to lament your "absolutely terrible" reads in such a dramatic way?

[Battle Mage]

ah damnit, it's Jam and 72o aint it? all that shade on Looker from Jam yesterday was just trying to set him up as the mislynch in LyLo, and Jam is sticking with that strategy now, rather than simply following his buddy and outting himself by voting for me.

TTJT - it's all over to you to win it (again)...

[Battle Mage]

ah damnit, it's Jam and 72o aint it? all that shade on Looker from Jam yesterday was just trying to set him up as the mislynch in LyLo, and Jam is sticking with that strategy now, rather than simply following his buddy and outting himself by voting for me.

TTJT - it's all over to you to win it (again)...

Very nice try, quite incorrect. Do you really think, I'd plan that far ahead, as to be "suspicious" of him D1, to "throw shade" D2, so that I could hammer him Day 3? He has yet to address the issues I've had properly, the tiny bit of addressing he has done, was delayed so much, that it basically confirmed he was scum. As a "town" Battle Mage, can you actually say, what Looker did during D2 was Town aligned? Can you try to validate it being NAI? Is it in no way scum indicative? I'm going to go through all of Looker's posts now, explain how he's scum. You're free to do the same and to explain why he's town. You won't be able to, as he is scum, but regardless, I invite the attempt.

As Dunnstral and I both noted, your issue with Looker was just how he is. It's NAI because he does the same thing regardless of his alignment, but it feels to me like maybe you've targetted him without taking account of his meta, seeing him as an easy target because of this. This is borne out by your play today. Trying to challenge me to make a case in defence of him when I've said it really has no bearing on his alignment either way, is strawmanning me. Moreover, your description of your own actions seems perfectly feasible to me, and is exactly the sort of approach I would take as competent scum looking to line up mislynches without attracting too much attention. It looks a lot more likely than your suggestion that I'm scum who tunnel-visioned and then intentionally killed off my suspects to damage my own credibility, before deliberately making a gambit to try and out fakeclaims, which serves literally no purpose as scum.

[Battle Mage]

Not 72 and jams BM try again.

Game would be over.

Game wouldn't be over - Looker only put me at -1 for less than 1 minute, and nobody posted in that time.

[Battle Mage]

This game comes down to 72 and Looker or BM with either looker and jams. I have to do a reread and I'll figure it out. Should have eliminated me last night over Clark in all honesty.

dude i'm town, it's 72-Looker or 72-Jam. either is possible, and it's flippin obvious it's 72o over me. Look at how

both

Looker and Jam are saying it's me over 72 - one of them is definitely scum and lynches me for the win. Mason-swear.

I know it's a tough spot dude, but if you read what I've said carefully you will see it.

[Battle Mage]

Jam, you're at L-1 due to the formatting error - if you're town you should unvote before 72o logs in. Note I'm not hammering.

[Battle Mage]

I don't have time to post anything else tonight, but if we lose due to an accidental self-vote, that'll be the icing on the cake of this game.

[Battle Mage]

ok sweet. On the plus side, I'm also now confirmed as not being scum with Looker or 72o, otherwise I'd have hammered for the win.

So I can only be scum with Jam, meaning Jam only has 1 scenario from his POV - Looker-72o.

Which means if you're town, you may as well join me on the 72o wagon.

[Battle Mage]

ok sweet. On the plus side, I'm also now confirmed as not being scum with Looker or 72o, otherwise I'd have hammered for the win.

So I can only be scum with Jam, meaning Jam only has 1 scenario from his POV - Looker-72o.

Which means if you're town, you may as well join me on the 72o wagon.

So you're pitting it as me and you, or, 72 and Looker?
I also would prefer the Looker hammer personally.

Not exactly, so from TTJT's perspective there are 3 options:

Jam-BM
Jam-72o
Looker-72o

Only the bottom 2 remain from my perspective. Only the bottom 1 remains from your perspective.

Nearly solved!

[Battle Mage]

Eh would that elimantion actually have gone through?

I think it's probably debatable. He didn't mean to self-vote, so it would be harsh to count it. But the Mod would have to be impartial and count votes as they fall. Making a subjective judgement about what a player intended, where it relates to win/loss would be setting a problematic precedent. I'm sure when I've seen this situation come up before, the vote counted.

However, in a sense it doesn't

really

matter what the Mod's judgement would be. What matters is, despite the possible ambiguity, if I was scum with either 72o or Looker, I'd 100% have gone with it and taken a controversial/debatable win given the seemingly unanimous verdict I'm scum (which as noted, should have rung some alarm bells anyway if you thought I could be scum in this spot).

[Battle Mage]

@looker what made you doubt my claim btw? It's just weird.

So I want to give my scumrankings as to were my mind is. I am also doing ISo reads in will be for the next couple days so don't expect my vote anytime soon.

Scum
72- for reasons continuing from day 2. I had you as confirmed scum. Only doubt I have on you right now is my own personal selfsoubt.

BM- I know you and 72 can't be a team but I see you as the second scummiest player here. I looked over your ISO and you barely looked at Looker meanwhile interacted with Jamsv all game. You and Jamsv I want to rule out but at the same time the bussing each other side a big possibility.

Jamsv I've described your play as weird and to me very bold for scum. You made yourself a target day one and for no reason. Thought you would have been a PR and we're trying to save yourself after almost being universally town read

Looker is my weakest read. I have not liked their vote progressions at all throughout the game especially that Raya/duns vote. At the end I feel like I have the least content from them to analyze.

I'm basically done for tonight.

If you were to rule out me and Jam that would be immensely helpful, because it brings you down to the same possible solves as me. I'm currently thinking votes today will ultimately tell us who 72's partner is without me having to go back and do too much reading. Scum presumably NK you tonight, so would be good to get as much insight from you before lynching, assuming we even make it to tomorrow...

In terms of my approach towards Looker, it isn't hugely relevant now, but you can look at any of my other games with him, and I've done the exact same thing. It's a policy move, rather than specific to this game. Open 784 just finished and would be a good example. Dunnstral did say the same thing too, and flipped town.

Your top scumread is scum anyway, so that's a good start!

[Battle Mage]

There's something important to note. At the moment, TTJT is conf town. Unless if Looker wants to pop up and counter claim. Taking this into account, there are some things to realise. There are 6 scum teams in a vacuum.
72offsuit + BattleMage
72offsuit + JamSV
72offsuit + Looker
BattleMage + JamSV
BattleMage + Looker
JamSV + Looker

There are a handful we can eliminate with logic.
JamSV + Looker isn't the scum team. We could have swooped in on 72offsuit's vote on BattleMage, or BattleMage's vote on 72offsuit and won the game, by both of us voting for the same person, taking it to 3 votes, then winning by having an equivalent number of town + scum. This didn't happen, so we can rule out that potential scum team. Similarly, 72offsuit + BattleMage aren't the scum team. They would have hammered Looker after I voted for him, unless if they haven't gotten around to it yet, but I'm more of an optimistic person. That strikes off another potential scum team.
This means, no matter what, one of 72/BM are scum, and me or Looker are scum. As such. I'm willing to go down the lines of Looker himself:
Hammer priorities:

• Looker - 100%
• 72offsuit - 0%
• BattleMage - 0%
• TTJT - negative 100%

I'm not voting for anybody but Looker today, I'm going to disregard everything else anybody says to do with moving my vote. Before taking into account quality and town-iness of both of our plays in D2 (+ D1 for myself), this game comes down to two 1v1s, Looker vs myself, BattleMage vs 72offsuit, so of course, its only natural that I wouldn't move my vote. We then look at post quality during D2. Out of me and Looker, who was trying to get more information? Myself. Who was hiding information and their explanations of their reads? Looker. That's the very quick, I'm on the toilet posting this, explanation of both mine and his playing during D2. Common sense says Looker will now end up voting me, fair enough. I therefore encourage TTJT to note vote for either of us until 72offsuit and Battle Mage vote first, to limit bussing.

For what its worth, the likelihood is, Battle Mage is the partner, however I'll wait for TTJT to weigh in as to whether I'm correct or not before D3 occurs.

Finally, the last thing I'm going to say for a little while.

GG. Town wins.

!scumMe leading with a vote makes ZERO sense. !ScumMe proveds town with FREE INFO. It is a literally ----- EV play with a clear.

I'm town, it should be painstakingly obvious.

This is particularly ridiculous. Of course it makes total sense for you to do that as scum - you 'open-wolfed' with your hammer yesterday and realised you would be on the backfoot today regardless, so you came out firing at me in the hope of capitalising on the suspicion around me from Day 2. No downside for you as scum, only upside as it gives you a bit of momentum as 'first-mover'. So sensible strategy on your part, but painstakingly obviously scum. No reason for 72o-town to potentially throw the game like that without discussion when you have given no good reason to vote for me, and didn't even bother to try and persuade anyone to follow you.

[Battle Mage]

Not 72 and jams BM try again.

Game would be over.

Lol. BM basically claimed scum here. GG. He Brainfarted.

Hold on...you're denying 72-Jam is a possibility? Hmm...

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: BM

All aboard the BM wagon!

Choo choo

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I don't have lots of time tonight. 72o pulled a similar move on me in our only other game which went to LyLo (where we were both town and subsequently lost), so it's not completely certain he's scum. That being said, he hasn't actually given any reason for voting me, so I don't think there's any prospect of persuading him otherwise, and it makes my decision a no-brainer!

VOTE: 72offsuit

I think it's highly likely he's scum anyway given the quickhammer on Dunnstral yesterday before I had a chance to check my meta on him, which also prevented TTJT (who is now 100% conftown) from protecting the cop. And the early vote on me, also without discussion, which would throw the game for himself if he was town.

Hard to see why 72o-town would suddenly not care about analysis/discussion, when previously he has been very thoughtful and detailed in his efforts - easily the most I've ever seen him try. Which is NAI in itself, but the lack of consistency seems more like scum who has open-wolfed and taken one for the team, as opposed to town who spontaneously decided they don't care anymore. And #1189?

It then becomes a question of whether it's 72o-Looker or 72o-Jam. Would welcome TTJT's thoughts on that in particular.

I haven't given any reason. Laughable.
You logging in and then logging out and loggin back in as hidden status is obvscum.
Its a lame mechanical tell, but is pretty much 100%. He didn;t even deny it.

1. I did deny it, several times I think.
2. Because it clearly wasn't true, as we discussed at the time.
3. And it also makes no sense to accuse me of lurking/hiding my activity when I was literally actively posting that same minute.
4. Also, even in some fantasy world where I actually had done this, it would be NAI for this game, given I was in about 6 games at that point, and on your theory could have been hiding my presence for any of them.
5. Although as noted, I've never hidden my online/offline status.

Unfortunately for you, your claim that I was hiding my activity so I could avoid posting, 30 seconds before I posted a long and detailed post, is demonstrably false. The fact you're clinging to it as the sole reason for voting for me, is pretty transparent.

Question:

After doing a very detailed analysis of my posts earlier in the game, which highlighted plenty of reasons to suspect I'm town and few to assume I'm scum, would 72o-town vote for me in LyLo for the above reason, without any discussion?

[Battle Mage]

This game comes down to 72 and Looker or BM with either looker and jams. I have to do a reread and I'll figure it out. Should have eliminated me last night over Clark in all honesty.

dude i'm town, it's 72-Looker or 72-Jam. either is possible, and it's flippin obvious it's 72o over me. Look at how

both

Looker and Jam are saying it's me over 72 - one of them is definitely scum and lynches me for the win. Mason-swear.

I know it's a tough spot dude, but if you read what I've said carefully you will see it

.

Horrible Appeal to Emotion here.

No more horrible than your pleading below?

I'll be courteous though and let them respond and try to persuade me otherwise.

72o-scum for reasons above, plus his paranoia about me suspecting him yesterday when I didn't, and failure to provide an argument for voting me (despite being cogniscent of all the reasons I'm town), beyond a proven-false claim about me lurking.

Also voting patterns indicate 72o-scum more than BM-scum.

Day 1 final wagon was pretty much unanimous, and so 72o didn't need to be on it to get the mislynch. Yesterday wagon was definitely not unanimous and harder for scum to fashion a mislynch, and 72o was on it and hammered before discussion could finish, and despite very clearly trying to set me up as the other mislynch required for scum-win. He only quick-hammered when momentum against me had diminished.

No town player ever says this.
Think about it. for 2 seconds.

Please

.

[Battle Mage]

TTJT, consider my leading with a vote, with a clear in play.
The only way this makes sense is if you think I am a super gambit-y player.
I have like 10 games on here.
Look through them, and show me a game where I bus my scum partner or fake-claim as scum, or fake-claim as town.

TTJT, just read BM;s progression on my slot.
Consider if you think his progression on my slot is natural or forced.
I think you will see that it is in fact, not natural, because he is scum.

This is desperate stuff

I think your argument is self-defeating because you haven't done any of those things here? You haven't fakeclaimed, as you haven't claimed? (although there's no leeway in this now, so not relevant). And you haven't bussed a scumpartner? - your 2 main suspects yesterday were Dunnstral and me, both of whom are town.

There's nothing "super-gambity" about leading with your vote here, it's just obv-scum because 72o-town wouldn't risk throwing the game with no reason, especially with a conf-town to work with. You're a better player than that, and you've played more thoughtfully this game than I've seen before as either town or scum, which is to your credit.
It's only late in Day 2 with your bogus case on me that things really fell apart and you dropped the pretense of scumhunting.

If my progression on your slot was "not natural", you could try to show this? Just making the assertion is lazy scumplay. It's a bit like quoting something and saying "Look BM claimed scum here" when clearly I didn't (see Post 1244).

[Battle Mage]

That's it. End of my case. Please consider all my recent posts. G'nite.

Are we agreeing it's Looker + BM then? I truly feel much safer about the Looker vote compared to a BM vote. 100% certainty beats anything less than 100%.

This looks like a slip which strongly confirms it as 72o-Jam. No reason why Jam would make this post when he knows I'm town, and 72o is scum.

[Battle Mage]

Not 72 and jams BM try again.

Game would be over.

Actually how would the game be over if it was me + jam?

When I questionned this, you accused me of "claiming scum". How does this stack up against that?

[Battle Mage]

@ Mod

Can we please clarify jams post?

My read is that was a really obvious formatting error and he did NOT self vote.

@ Mod

Can we please clarify jams post?

My read is that was a really obvious formatting error and he did NOT self vote.

I'd like to second this. I didn't even notice I did it until BM pointed it out.

Belated request from Jam here? As noted, Mod clarification helpful but not hugely relevant - just an attempt to put me artificially back in the frame here.

If TTJT also comes to the conclusion BM is scum. I'll vote him then 72.

I.e. Jam knows I'm town and is paving the way to jump on my wagon to build momentum and put pressure on TTJT/Looker to hammer me.

[Battle Mage]

I came to a conclusion last night. I'm almost sure now.

This is my first Elo situation so I I hope I don't mess it up. I'll put a final case and see what everyone thinks before voting when I'm fully free tonight. At this point I feel 90% sure of one scum. I'm willing to take the chances on it and bet the game. If we lose I'll gladly take the loss.

Everyone final scum pairings you'll bet the game on?

I'd go 72o and Jam, but definitely 72o first. Although that still means we need to persuade Looker to get him on board.

[Battle Mage]

Jam's interaction with 72o on the last page makes zero sense from town who has mechanically confirmed 72o is scum.

[Battle Mage]

I came to a conclusion last night. I'm almost sure now.

This is my first Elo situation so I I hope I don't mess it up. I'll put a final case and see what everyone thinks before voting when I'm fully free tonight. At this point I feel 90% sure of one scum. I'm willing to take the chances on it and bet the game. If we lose I'll gladly take the loss.

Everyone final scum pairings you'll bet the game on?

I'd go 72o and Jam, but definitely 72o first. Although that still means we need to persuade Looker to get him on board.

Do you mean his lack luster attempt at distancing by voting and unvoting you? He's obviously going to the 72 wagon. I have a case against Looker. Looker doesn't have a case against me (or anyone else for that matter tehehe). Looker goes first.

You've outted yourself here by jumping too early, you made it too obvious by going back to suspecting me despite the mechanical conf, before the Mod came back with an alternative view. Which suggests you discussed your strategy in the PT with 72o, and then both tried to get the Mod to widen the pool again. Slimey play

[Battle Mage]

Jam's interaction with 72o on the last page makes zero sense from town who has mechanically confirmed 72o is scum.

Mechanical confirmation? Given how apparently you knew TTJT was going to be away and exactly how long for and given that affected your actions at the end of D2. Is it unreasonable to assume, you knew Nahdia wouldn't count my "vote" as an actual vote so just tried for town cred?

I'm not sure what you're saying in the middle bit - did you mean to ask 72o about that? Oops

And yeah it's pretty unreasonable, as if I was scum with 72o or Looker, I'm clearly taking that punt and arguing the case with the Mod. Your argument is that I'd try and exploit something like that to try and get town-cred, rather than exploit it to just win, which makes no sense.

As I say, I'm surprised by the ruling - I'd have 100% made the opposite call if I was modding (and I was a scummy award-nominated Moderator in my heyday ).

[Battle Mage]

Jam's interaction with 72o on the last page makes zero sense from town who has mechanically confirmed 72o is scum.

Mechanical confirmation? Given how apparently you knew TTJT was going to be away and exactly how long for and given that affected your actions at the end of D2. Is it unreasonable to assume, you knew Nahdia wouldn't count my "vote" as an actual vote so just tried for town cred?

I'm not sure what you're saying in the middle bit - did you mean to ask 72o about that? Oops

And yeah it's pretty unreasonable, as if I was scum with 72o or Looker, I'm clearly taking that punt and arguing the case with the Mod. Your argument is that I'd try and exploit something like that to try and get town-cred, rather than exploit it to just win, which makes no sense.

As I say, I'm surprised by the ruling - I'd have 100% made the opposite call if I was modding (and I was a scummy award-nominated Moderator in my heyday ).

If you knew the moderator doesn't accept accidental votes or mistaken formated votes, you pointing it out would be for town cred, as you wouldn't be able to win from it.

how would I have known that? she didn't confirm until long after the event.

This is the weakest shading.

[Battle Mage]

Regardless, we all know as a matter of fact, Looker is scum, some of us won't admit it, but that's the nature of the game. You're scum by extension, thats all there is to it.

The fact is, if you were town, you wouldn't "know" who the scum were, and by revealing your certainty, you have effectively slipped. Especially in the face of all logic, to assume 72o is town - impossible.

[Battle Mage]

The quality of any argument I use against you is irrelevant. You're scum by extension. The only 2 feasible scum pairs are Me + 72, and you + Looker. Based off of how this is playing out. All I have to do is fell Looker, you fall, and the game is won when we hammer you D4. Not to mention how extremely obvious it is Looker is scum out of me and him. He has yet to do a single pro town thing this game. Not to mention he did some particularly scummy things, addressed in 1226. He has 15 posts. A handful are NAI, the rest are anti-Town at the least, of which, during a phase which isn't hammer or lose, go from being NAI / poor play, to being scummy. The fact of the matter is the easiest person to hammer for town is Looker. We don't have to pay you any attention, we just have to wait for Looker to fall and for you to come crashing down D4. All TTJT has to do is read Lookers 15 posts and 1224 or 1226 for a quick summary. Unfortunately for yourself, the game state allows me to completely ignore every point you make. The miracle of you and Looker winning comes to down a literal miracle from Looker,

or poor play from TTJT. Both are unlikely for what it's worth.

This is a false dilemma, given 72 and Looker is a plausible scumteam, including

from your own perspective

, and I can only figure you've ruled it out because you don't want to bus 72o and risk a LyLo with me and Looker (because you'd have to kill the Doc tonight), as you think I'll probably back him over you.

As I say, it's a scumslip that you spontaneously "know" I'm scum, and you still haven't justified it, despite supposedly wanting to engage. And your efforts in red to not-so-subtly pressure TTJT by saying it will be "poor play" from him if your buddy 72offsuit gets lynched, and then buddy him...

All looking pretty bad for you bud.

[Battle Mage]

^these 2 are different. the latter is me making a case, the former is you explicitly threatening TTJT with saying he's a bad player if he gets rid of your buddy, amirite?

[Battle Mage]

i'm not going to keep going back and forth with you on this and dilute the substance. I think I've made the case coherently and TTJT can make his call, whatever that may be!

[Battle Mage]

Jams why are you so sure it can't be looker and 72? Wouldnt your choices be BM/72 and Looker if you are 100% sure looker is scum. Likewise I can't rule out you and BM since BM would have been bussing you all game.

Bussing Jam all game? I lock-towned him until midway through Day 2 when I realised he wasn't a mason.

[Battle Mage]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

[Battle Mage]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

you've basically got a 50% chance of hitting scum today to keep the game alive. If you do, you'll be killed tonight because scum are unlikely to risk having the doctor block their kill. in which case, I'll have to nail the final scum tomorrow without you, if we manage to get one today.

[Battle Mage]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

you've basically got a 50% chance of hitting scum today to keep the game alive. If you do, you'll be killed tonight because scum are unlikely to risk having the doctor block their kill. in which case, I'll have to nail the final scum tomorrow without you, if we manage to get one today.

Him being doc makes 0 difference. He is an uncced player, therefore A clear. If he was a solo mason he would still b killed.

Further shows BM is not in a town frame of mind

2 problems with this post:

1. Why does him being cc'd matter or not? He's a cop clear, so was conftown even before the claim. Unbelievable you're still trying to make this sound less certain than it is.
2. Being a cleared player doesn't guarantee you would be NKed. I.e. if scum thought he would vote for the wrong person in LyLo, they might consider keeping him alive. Of course, you

know

this, because we did it when we were scum together in a previous game.

[Battle Mage]

Also I want a confirmation from. Town that you won't all hate me if I make the wrong choice lol.

I won't hate you dude, given my bloody performance this game! But I'll be a bit disappointed in us collectively if we can't get 72 at least. You only need to hit 1 today, and then the pressure is probably on me tomorrow!

Why do you mean by tHis? .

you've basically got a 50% chance of hitting scum today to keep the game alive. If you do, you'll be killed tonight because scum are unlikely to risk having the doctor block their kill. in which case, I'll have to nail the final scum tomorrow without you, if we manage to get one today.

Cop + Doc means we're in column 1. Meaning there's a roleblocker. If scum kills TTJT Town wins you know? If me and 72 are alive we hammer you or Looker for the win instantly.

How does this make any sense? Surely you can't both be alive tomorrow, otherwise town would have already lost.

[Battle Mage]

Alright I am neither confirming or denying. In a scenerrio where I fakeclaimed doctor would it change your views? Obviously mafia knows the truth and town can only believe what I say. Does that make a difference based on reactions to my claim. How would you see looker who was the only one to have openly opposed my claim.

Omg if this is true, I love you

[Battle Mage]

Ok so TTJT, my thoughts would be as follows:

Looker reaction looks bad on surface, as I noted at the time, because he should know you were conftown regardless of your claim. BUT, if you forget that, I can understand the skepticism - ordinarily claiming Doc and conveniently forgetting to protect the Cop could be a scumplay, albeit not a very good one. However, I'd argue the following by Jam is worse.

Jam ignores what you said about not submitting an action, and jumps to the "he must have been roleblocked" because that would fit with the setup. He's emphasised this point a couple of times, which would look more like he knew you were fakeclaiming and wanting to make himself look extra-town by playing along and pretending there was a scum roleblocker (and in doing so, glossing over what you'd actually said). In his haste, he seems to have scumslipped, highlighted in red below. It's a slip because Looker didn't appear to be suggesting you fakeclaimed as town at all - he was implying you were scum. Jam on the other hand, assumes that you would be fakeclaiming as vanilla, and is at pains to explain why he thinks that wouldn't be possible:

Mas claim time. I am the town doctor. I was bout to warn you guys not to close out the day because I would w unavailable to send in a night action until today. I'll respond after work

That's not very believable. Why wouldn't you just ask for an extension? Who all did you protect?

The issue when its 3v2 of voting at all, is it actually allows potential for both scum partners to hop on and quick hammer. So I don't know how to take what 72 just did.

AKA. Did 72 just hit a scum slot as town or is 72 scum? It isn't town hitting town as scum would win.

I think it means that Battle Mage is scum. It's interesting that you'd still vote for me, though.

Mas claim time. I am the town doctor. I was bout to warn you guys not to close out the day because I would w unavailable to send in a night action until today. I'll respond after work

That's not very believable. Why wouldn't you just ask for an extension? Who all did you protect?

---

• I should've stuck to my guns yesterday and stayed on JamSV. Pending ThirteenthJT's response, I'm thinking BM + JamSV. That would explain BM trying to take up for my playstyle yesterday.

VOTE: Battle Mage

He probably got role blocked. ClarkBar investigated him and TTJT came up town.

Vanilla Townie would have no reason to claim Doctor here.

NGL though, I'm impressed by your distancing attempt. If I were you though, I'd try very hard to get me hammed not BM. My previous post explained that its me or you, and BattleMage of 72offsuit.

TTJT is smart enough to understand that.

As such you really should start scraping for a case against me.
However, I have a wild observation. Looker doesn't actually think BM is scum at all. If he did, he would never have unvoted, as town, who cares if scum is quick hammered? His 2 posts were attempts at distancing. BM + Looker are the scum duo. D3 we hammer Looker, D4 we hammer Battle Mage, town wins. Thanks Looker.

I've also highlighted in blue another one of his attempts to kiss your ass, as I think I missed it at the time.

[Battle Mage]

ah i fucked up the quote order, but hopefully that is understandable!

[Battle Mage]

Alright I am neither confirming or denying. In a scenerrio where I fakeclaimed doctor would it change your views? Obviously mafia knows the truth and town can only believe what I say. Does that make a difference based on reactions to my claim. How would you see looker who was the only one to have openly opposed my claim.

You're conftown anyway. It just would mean 72offsuit is the Doctor. There's no possible scenario where Looker is town though. Would mean I'd have to be a little more careful D4 that's all.

how the hell does it mean 72offsuit is the Doctor? Surely if he was the doctor, he would have claimed it! Seriously your attempts to protect this guy defy all logic.

I have no idea what you even mean by the last bit, and I suspect you don't either at this point.

[Battle Mage]

No problem

I didn’t read too closely after being eliminated, but it seems you all had fun. Probs to BM for having the energy to spew all those words as scum.

haha yes, my typical scumplay is just to shamelessly lurk.

[Battle Mage]

I'd take Clark as my buddy to guarantee his first win as scum, and also so you could be right about me and Clark being scum.

to guarantee his first win as scum

to guarantee his first win

his first win

Well 0-2 feels great. Kudos to Jam for sticking to his guns and doing his best to help town. Pretty much on the ball all game, well done.

It hurts that I too correctly identified the scum team only tell allow myself to be misdirected. I tried to not be too myopic and my regret for the Dunnstral vote is crushing.

I really thought town had a great chance here, Jam was objectively a ridiculous wagon that made no sense. Why ignore my FoS's from D2? But GG overall, I enjoyed this one.

I'm sorry man. I will say though, in all honesty, I thought you played really well here. You were thoughtful, didn't just tunnel-vision and ignore logic, and were able to flex your understanding of the game based on what actually happened. I reflected on it in the scum PT which you'll see, but basically I think the fact you withdrew from your case on me on Day 2 was a reflection of strength, rather than weakness. You were right I was scum, but not for the right reasons, and you actually thought about it and realised that. I didn't intentionally force you into a Cop claim, and I legitimately believed Jam and Raya were masons - the purpose of my gambit was just to earn towncred by trying to push people into fakeclaims and collude with the town PRs (which is really something I was doing as town in a game running in a parallel with this one)! Unfortunately the day ended before you could make the next step which was to realise there were lots of other perfectly valid arguments for me being scum, but I'm confident you would have got there given a bit more time. The best mafia players are those who can challenge their own assumptions - you won't always get it right, but more often than not you'll reap the benefits of playing a smart game.

Jam played a great game (as expected), although I felt it fell away a bit on the final day which was probably why he ended up getting eliminated by both other town players. The collaboration with 72offsuit and being too quick to openly trust him was probably a mistake (although he was correct, it was difficult to justify), and I felt his high-volume posting made it too easy for me to pick holes in. I stand by pretty much everything I said in thread about the case on Looker being weak, although I sympathise because it's always pretty hard to build a good case on Looker. To his credit, Looker saw it coming a mile off, and wanted to kill Jam on Night 1, which would have changed the game completely!

Some of the play from 72offsuit this game was better than I've ever seen from him. His detailed analysis posts on people were great - he basically had me spot on. I think town would have won this game if he'd kept up that approach, rather than going with weak (and provably untrue) accusations about me lurking or hiding my online status (which for clarity, were legitimately untrue, as I've never done that). I felt that his hammer on Day 2 should have always resulted in him being elimmed on the final day, and he seemed to be objectively the scummiest looking player at the end, despite being pretty obvtown on Day 1.

I really enjoyed being scum with Looker - probably my favourite scumbuddy I've had, and our PT was exactly what I think a mafia PT should be - just us joking around and actually trying to help each other, talking strategy etc. Most scumteams end up bickering and arguing in the PT because one person gets mad at how the other is playing.

Likewise, I thought town as a whole (in particular the newbies) played a sophisticated game, and was somewhat unlucky. My biggest mistake was the way I behaved towards Looker, which made it pretty obvious if I flipped scum that he was my partner. On Day 2, I thought we might be a bit stuffed, as momentum shifted against me with the Clark-claim.

An enjoyable game, so thanks!

[Battle Mage]

"Hey, man, I'm a doc that didn't protect the cop because I was busy. No, I didn't submit V/LA. No, I didn't ask for an extension. Just get off my back, alright??"

I don;t think comments like this are helpful.

Learn to win gracefully.

Jam and I had you pegged, don;t gloat.

I did love TTJT's doc gambit - he's a chip off the old block!

[Battle Mage]

What was the point of fake claiming doc? You were already clear, mafia knew you were lying because of their own roles (they know there's no doc in the setup because they don't have a roleblocker)

I guess it didn't harm the town, in any case

His plan was presumably to see who looked like they knew it was fake (because scum would know it was a lie and town would have no reason to think it was a lie).

It's a clever pro-town gambit, but hard to say whether he got the maximum value from it.

[Battle Mage]

Another game where lurkers and the obvscum win. Town has actual cases against scum but they are ignored. Oh well.

Don't think this is a fair reflection at all.

GG all. I appreciated seeing everyone playing hard this game, it's all you can ask for as a moderator really. TTJT, I'll say that the first time I mishammered in LYLO was pretty soulcrushing, but it's a rite of passage we all go through. You only get better!

Big ups to the mafia team for informing me when JamSV accidentally selfvoted in LYLO and asked me how I was going to handle it rather than just blitzing. Like I said, I think going forward I'll put a rule in my ruleset that votes inside broke quote tags won't be counted, but not having that rule to begin with made it an ambiguous situation and there are mods who would have ended the game there. So I appreciate them giving the opportunity to play it out.

In fairness, TTJT didn't mishammer, 72offsuit did (somehow!?).

And the Jam accidental self-vote was a really interesting situation. I think you made the right call as Mod to disallow it, but I think it was problematic to confirm that in the thread after the situation had already resolved itself. It would have been better for the game to leave that ambiguity there, and I'm never mad about Mods weighing in on something in the thread which can affect people's judgements about alignment. As I noted in the scum PT, your public response to the question from Jam and 72o which stated an unequivocal position illegitimately damaged my argument that I could have arguably hammered in that spot because of the ambiguity. It would have been a good thing to clarify after the game I think (as it was unlikely the situation would arise again).

I feel bad for Blopp. She seemed so excited to play here, and her spirit was crushed so quickly! I do wish she had told me she was flaking rather than just disappearing like that though and forcing me to go through prodding her and all. Perhaps next time I get newbies that roll goon I should provide some more encouragement.

On that note, also big thanks to everyone who replaced in.

I don't know if this applies to anyone here, but if any of you who were newbies haven't tried out the other queues, I encourage you to do so. I'm happy to answer questions about the other queues if you have any. Or anything else about the site, really. I hope to see you around in other games.

The mafia PT when we replaced in was hilarious, I think it was just Blopp and Homura going "shit, what do we do now?" If they come back to the site, they can claim an unbeaten record though, Looker and I definitely gave scum a better chance here.

Thanks again Nahdia, was a really good game!

[Battle Mage]

I did play horrible here at the end I apologize to the town for the let down. BM how could you do this to me. Heartbroken.

You didn't play horrible at all dude - you played thoughtfully and your actual final read was the right one - 72offsuit was objectively the scummiest player and the right lynch. I don't know how it ended up being Jam - he probably talked you into that too easily. There was no shame in losing like that - town was at a huge disadvantage going into the final day because of the 72off quickhammer. The big issue as a whole was that town frequently had correct reads on the scum, but couldn't translate that into a coherent case. Seriously, still baffled that 72 snap-voted me in LyLo based on an argument he knew was untrue - stuff like that just puts scum on the frontfoot. If you'd voted me over 72o I'd have been extraordinarily disappointed.

It's almost like newbie tells work. For the record, I replaced out not because I was being pressured but because both Quick and Looker replaced in.

I don't necessarily agree with this. I think the reality is that the newbie tells thing was dubious, and the way it was ultimately argued became completely self-defeating. There's a lesson here to be clinically accurate when making cases, because the factual inaccuracies with the Blopp case as it was conveyed really killed it.

I'm still really not sure why TTJT wanted to kick me so badly. I;d like to know so I can prevent whatever I did that seemed scummy. Thoughts?

Too many thoughts.

I'm actually completely amazed you managed to talk him out of it, into going for Jam instead.

[Battle Mage]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

There were demonstrable factual inaccuracies about the Blopp case, pertaining to timing of posts. It really hurt the case because it looked like you were lying to paint a newbie in a bad light. It's not to say your tells were right or wrong, but the way they were presented was too easy to breakdown.

[Battle Mage]

There were no factually inaccuracies in the Blopp case. There were just players who refused to believe that others may be more accurate than them on the Blopp read, or that others may be proposing a better framework for playing this particular setup.

There were demonstrable factual inaccuracies about the Blopp case, pertaining to timing of posts. It really hurt the case because it looked like you were lying to paint a newbie in a bad light. It's not to say your tells were right or wrong, but the way they were presented was too easy to breakdown.

Quote it. This is a straight lie.

were you not following the game at the time? we literally talked about it at length, and it contributed to your slot being lynched.

the game has ended btw, so i ain't lying about shit