Newbie 2019 | Game Over!

[Porkens]

BEANSTALK

[Porkens]

Why do you feel pressure to give a reason?

[Porkens]

VOTE: redados why do you care how many votes they have on them?

[Porkens]

20

I would not want the day to end so early! We have ten whole days of discussion where we can gather more information

2 votes isn’t close to day ending, and pressure promotes discussion. This is not a good reason to unvote. Why did you really unvote?

VOTE: redados why do you care how many votes they have on them?

Why do you care about why he cares how many votes they have on them?

See above

[Porkens]

Here are my (very) initial reads:

ShellyC - hasn’t posted

N0bleNoob - hasn’t posted

MiniMegabyte - learning good lessons, I don’t have a read yet but answering Micc’s questions productively, trying to work through it

ItalianoVD - kind of just talking to talk at this point, but it’s early in the day

GeniusGamer - hasn’t posted a ton so no read at this point. Has managed to say nothing in the course of like three posts though

Micc - in teaching/explaining mode but I have learned nothing about his alignment based on how he is playing currently. Appreciate you talking through decisions though, it helps me understand better!

Porkens - being tough on me, but I understand they’re just trying to get me to talk! I don’t really have an alignment read at this point.

T-Bone - hasn’t posted

VOTE: ShellyC because it’s time for everyone to be talking!

VOTE: shellyC

[Porkens]

What do you mean “this vote is safe?”

[Porkens]

T-Bone hasn’t posted at all, so what makes it “a good vote?”

[Porkens]

Does that mean you do not have a scumread on anyone who has posted?

[Porkens]

How will parking your vote on someone who isn’t here help you get reads?

[Porkens]

What would you think of someone who bandwagons onto t bone with you?

[Porkens]

They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.

So you are conceding that tBone would be a mis-eliminate?

[Porkens]

They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.

I don’t think I’m understanding this. The way I interpret this, you’re saying that if someone has three votes, the third person is likely to be mafia. This... doesn’t make sense to me. Please elaborate.

I suspect it’s the

other

interpretation.

[Porkens]

I did not want to be on a wagon early in the day with no information. I stand by that. We "all know that". We have more information. I'm keeping a vote on T-Bone for now. I don't have any scumreads yet, so I'll keep a vote on the only person who hasn't posted. I have been informed by Porkens that 2 votes isn't close to day-ending and promotes discussion, so I don't feel too bad keeping a second vote on T-Bone.

TBone is a wagon yet you chose to keep your vote on him. What’s the difference?

[Porkens]

I did not want to be on a wagon early in the day with no information. I stand by that. We "all know that". We have more information. I'm keeping a vote on T-Bone for now. I don't have any scumreads yet, so I'll keep a vote on the only person who hasn't posted. I have been informed by Porkens that 2 votes isn't close to day-ending and promotes discussion, so I don't feel too bad keeping a second vote on T-Bone.

TBone is a wagon yet you chose to keep your vote on him. What’s the difference?

The difference is probably that Redados has more information now. I don’t see how they could possibly have that much more, but that seems like the only non-hypocritical answer.

Why are you answering questions directed at other players?

[Porkens]

I’m speculating. Is it wrong to attempt to figure out why a certain player would carry out a particular action?

Why not let him speak for himself without the benefit of your speculation?

[Porkens]

I’m speculating. Is it wrong to attempt to figure out why a certain player would carry out a particular action?

Why not let him speak for himself without the benefit of your speculation?

Because I’m already aware of the reasons why he would do this.

So you have gone from “speculating” to “I am aware of his reasons.” How so you know his reasons?

[Porkens]

*do

[Porkens]

They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.

So you are conceding that tBone would be a mis-eliminate?

Shelly don’t miss this question

[Porkens]

The only thing that I have seen Porkens do is openly investigate other players and controlling the conversation. Could it be that he is directing attention away from himself by controlling the topic instead of just observing?

How can asking questions both control the conversation and divert attention from myself?

[Porkens]

You said “directing attention” away from myself. The conversation may be centered on the person I’m asking, but where is the audience’s

attention

?

[Porkens]

Then how did you notice me?

[Porkens]

I suspect it’s the

other

interpretation.

Why are you answering questions directed at other players?

Guess I can ask you the same question.

Huh. Now that it’s been pointed out, I find that quite suspicious.

What question was I supposedly answering?

[Porkens]

They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.

I don’t think I’m understanding this. The way I interpret this, you’re saying that if someone has three votes, the third person is likely to be mafia. This... doesn’t make sense to me. Please elaborate.

I suspect it’s the

other

interpretation.

You added your answer to a request for elaboration directed at Shellyc, as quoted above.

Three posts later

, you asked why

I

was answering other people’s questions and only wanted the person you questioned to answer.

Just so I know what you are really saying, what is “the other interpretation”?

[Porkens]

Let’s dig inTo that post together genius.

Shelly: “They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.”

I think you and I agree that this statement is false. By this logic any wagon with three votes is somehow more likely to be a mislynch.

Instead, let’s look at it this way. Shelly called the third vote on TBone “likely scum on a mislynch,”
So what does that tell us about shelly’s read on TBone?

[Porkens]

I agree, and so, in light of that, what are we to make of this:

To answer GeniusGamer in post 82,

it's the other interpretation

.
Though he's talking now and im unvoting. UNVOTE: T-Bone
The true motivations of other players are unknown if you are town...
You can assume but not be sure, unless you are scum. Still early on and we can only mainly speculate. Every action will lead to more speculation.

?

[Porkens]

They would be the third vote and according to guides the third voter is likely to be a mafia pushing a mislynch. I'd reread their posts and probably change my vote to them.

You said this before he posted. Did you think he was town at this point?

[Porkens]

So why aren’t you voting for either mic or genius?

[Porkens]

Does anyone want to ask me questions?

[Porkens]

Does anyone want to ask me questions?

Who do you think is scum?

I don’t know. I think everyone who I’ve engaged has done a reasonable job explaining themselves, and I haven’t really been thinking too hard about alignment yet. I’m hoping that when I look back I’ll see some clues.

[Porkens]

Does anyone want to ask me questions?

Is anyone giving you town vibes? If so, why?

I have some some very basic emotional gut reactions but nothing that I can explain rationally.

For example, I

feel

like Micc is playing in a protown way, but of course I

think

he’s just being a good SE.

On the other side of things, my initial reaction to Italiano is suspicion, but intellectually I think his avatar is making me read his tone in a negative way.

[Porkens]

I’m gunna do a thing here with reads and whatnot

[Porkens]

Some reads:

N0bleNoob - Trying to push people to gain information. Has pushed Porkens about pushing, but funnily enough is also doing a lot of pushing. Pushing is good because it’s how we find information.

GeniusGamer - Originally, his posts don’t have a lot of content. He was making light observations but not really saying anything or pushing anyone. He is talking more now, but he is clearly still finding his footing. I’m getting serious “new player” vibes.

Porkens - Still doing a lot of pushing and being aggressive. This feels like a viable day one strategy to get more information out in the open.

@GeniusGamer (post 136) Ah. I understand now, it's absolutely great to have preliminary reads.

Some reads:
ItalianoVD: Seems pretty active and was pushing GeniusGamer, which is an alright sus at this stage in my opinion, for his wording.
GeniusGamer: Was pushed and defence is average. Sounds like a fellow newbie. He's starting to talk more though. Needs a closer look.
Porkens: Very aggressive and pushing people, which is how we get info. Strongest townread for now.
MiniMegabyte: newbie vibes, kinda on the quiet side, says he's lost, maybe a little scumleaning here not sure.
Redados, Micc and T-Bone, though posting, haven't posted a ton of game-advancing stuff. (though I understand work commitments etc.)

It’s weird how similar these are.

[Porkens]

There are a few other red/Shelly interactions.

[Porkens]

...which stick out

[Porkens]

Italiano, I was questioning things that stood out to me. If there’s something specific you think I’m ignoring please point it out and I’ll tell you what I think.

Humans have bias, and I think avatars have an effect on reads. How you choose to present yourself is up to you.

Here are some reads:

T-Bone kinda pinged me with his buddy buddy talk with Micc.

Genius not voting is off putting to me because I think scum can be afraid of how their votes will make people read them.

Italiano is a bit inconsistent. First calling post based reads bad and then doing quite. A bit of post based reads.

Shelly has some questionable logic and she and red have a weird synergy going on. Mostly it’s Shelly shadowing red on certain things but there’s a touch of reciprocation. Red has also given some questionable justifications.

Mini mega could be mafia based on the “confused noob” posts but also could be ropebait.

Noble noob has said nothing about mini mega and vise versa, and the “I’m glad someone saw what I was doing there” post felt kinda like unnecessary justification to me.

[Porkens]

Only a bad idea if you want to avoid suspicion?
Had you expressed a SR if mini prior to this vote?

[Porkens]

You just said “in light of <not voting is a bad idea because it makes me suspicious>, vote” so I’m not following this

[Porkens]

If mini is scum who do you think her partner is?

[Porkens]

Do you think her partner is voting for her?

[Porkens]

What do you think of that Shelly readslist I quoted with yours?

[Porkens]

@red: do you believe shelly’s claim that she didn’t read your post before she made her readslist?

[Porkens]

To me it isn’t the reads themselves so ,ic has the wording. There is a lot of overlap.

[Porkens]

So much as*

[Porkens]

Almost

[Porkens]

Shelly why does your reads post use many of the same words and phrases that red’s did?

[Porkens]

Some reads:

N0bleNoob - Trying to push people to gain information. Has pushed Porkens about pushing, but funnily enough is also doing a lot of pushing. Pushing is good because it’s how we find information.

GeniusGamer - Originally, his posts don’t have a lot of content. He was making light observations but not really saying anything or pushing anyone. He is talking more now, but he is clearly still finding his footing. I’m getting serious “new player” vibes.

Porkens - Still doing a lot of pushing and being aggressive. This feels like a viable day one strategy to get more information out in the open.

@GeniusGamer (post 136) Ah. I understand now, it's absolutely great to have preliminary reads.

Some reads:
ItalianoVD: Seems pretty active and was pushing GeniusGamer, which is an alright sus at this stage in my opinion, for his wording.
GeniusGamer: Was pushed and defence is average. Sounds like a fellow newbie. He's starting to talk more though. Needs a closer look.
Porkens: Very aggressive and pushing people, which is how we get info. Strongest townread for now.
MiniMegabyte: newbie vibes, kinda on the quiet side, says he's lost, maybe a little scumleaning here not sure.
Redados, Micc and T-Bone, though posting, haven't posted a ton of game-advancing stuff. (though I understand work commitments etc.)

Talking about genius and me.

[Porkens]

You claimed to have not read red’s post before making your readslist, do you maintain that position?

[Porkens]

Aight. What do you find particularly scummy about Micc?

[Porkens]

Re: Micc-T It seemed jovial to me, like trying to engender fondness.

I’m leaning Shelly scum out of the two but I’m not that sold on either yet

[Porkens]

I could be down for a noob lunch.

[Porkens]

I could be down for a noob lunch.

So is it generally a thing that SEs don’t want to vote or eliminate any of the other SEs? What do you mean a noob lunch?

I’m talking about the player named noob. Between SEs I’m leaning TBone for the tonal reasons I mentioned earlier but its a thin margin

[Porkens]

Something that has stood out to me is that Porkens votes for Shellyc early and to me it seems like you’re trying to fit a scumread into your vote instead of voting for your scumread. I don’t like it and I don’t think it’s genuine.

What have I said about shellac that strikes you as disengenuous?

[Porkens]

What makes you think Shelly is town, exactly?

[Porkens]

How do you feel about noble noob?

[Porkens]

I don’t see Micc giving up

[Porkens]

Sometimes people don't post for reasons unrelated to the game. Don't get yourself in the habit of analyzing activity on Mafiascum, Minimegabyte. It's a bad habit, and will usually lead people to getting upset, and it will not help you find scum.

I’d generally agree but lots of people do try to catch players ignoring a game but posting elsewhere. Depends on the situation I think and probably not reliable but people do it all the time.

Votecount 1.6

Redados(2)

~ ItalianoVD(46), N0bleNoob(17)

MiniMegabyte(2)

~ Micc(19), GeniusGamer(51)

Micc(2)

~ T-Bone(21), shellyc(39)

shellyc(1)

~ Porkens(54)

N0bleNoob(1)

~ Redados(37)


Not Voting (1): MiniMegabyte(27)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-24 16:20:10)

On an unrelated note, what are those numbers next to each voter’s name in the vote count?

You can quote any post that’s in the game thread itself as far as I know. The number are the posts in which the player voted.

Sometimes people don't post for reasons unrelated to the game. Don't get yourself in the habit of analyzing activity on Mafiascum, Minimegabyte. It's a bad habit, and will usually lead people to getting upset, and it will not help you find scum.

Okay makes sense sorry as I said trough it was just a thought that popped into my head and wanted to sorta just get it out as people want me to start speaking my mind a lot more

I don’t think T-Bone meant to say that you should share absolutely

every

thought that comes to mind. And if you really didn’t think that it was very likely, there’s almost no point in sharing it.

Typing every thought that you have isn’t necessarily a bad idea though.



@red, no I don’t think it’s that weak. She is definitely sheeping reads, which could very well be a scum player who’s having trouble forming town-like thoughts on the game.

[Porkens]

You can’t deny that those reads are extremely similar, I think it’s disingenuous to conflate Shelly with red here.

[Porkens]

That’s fine.

Shelly has plagiarized red’s reads and posts. Red is agreeing with me On an actual thing that happened and supporting that with new evidence. It’s not as if red is copying what I’m saying, which is all Shelly is doing in those examples.

[Porkens]

Votecount 1.6

Redados(2)

~ ItalianoVD(46), N0bleNoob(17)

MiniMegabyte(2)

~ Micc(19), GeniusGamer(51)

Micc(2)

~ T-Bone(21), shellyc(39)

shellyc(1)

~ Porkens(54)

N0bleNoob(1)

~ Redados(37)


Not Voting (1): MiniMegabyte(27)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-07-24 16:20:10)

Well we have just under 3 days left now. We should probably move toward consolidating one or two wagons. I really do not feel like Redados is a good elimination today. I'm just OK with Mini. Micc I am not feeling at all. ShellyC and NobleNoob would be my top two choices.

So T-Bone, Italiano, and Noob can you make a compelling case why I should join your wagons? If not can I interest you in consolidating on either shelly or Noob?

[Porkens]

Lots of people say they do it I personally don’t have the patience for it

[Porkens]

That’s fine, and I’m looking forward to seeing what the replacements have to offer. My general message still stands though: I think it’s time to consolidate on 1 or 2 folks we can come to some compromise on.

[Porkens]

That’s just how I feel at the moment given how I read the gamestate.

[Porkens]

Glad to be playing with you flower person.

[Porkens]

I think, in general, you should just ignore the experience and treat SEs the same way you treat noobs. Otherwise, I think you risk psyching yourself out of decent reads.

If someone with more experience ever tries to lord it over me, however, I always tend to that as a red flag.

Focus on what people do rather than what they say. Look for agenda pushing. Just my advice.

I don’t consider myself great at mafia, and there are actual good theories out to there which I never pay any attention to.

[Porkens]

How did you robin tour previous game with reads?

[Porkens]

Oh that’s my phone autocorrecting “you do in”

[Porkens]

Hey hat. There was a reasonably strong wagon on mini, but that seemed to die down after mini posted some. There seems to be a bit of effort to wagon red. And as far as I can tell there is a spirit wagon on micc’s slot

[Porkens]

U cant fake that kind of reaction as scum; so the bait worked as intended

I don’t like this post.

[Porkens]

U cant fake that kind of reaction as scum; so the bait worked as intended

I just isoed red to see what taht was about. before sharing a opinion on red, first I want u to address somethin:
U said u read 2 Italianos games to solidify ur opinion. Firs of all, u already stated u thought italiano was town before, when he first pushed. Did u read it at that point? If not, why did u find the need to search for previous games of Italiano?
Finally, why those changed ur opinion? Care to elaborate what u found and why it is consistent with town Italiano?

Order of operations:
-I read Italiano as scum
-I read Italiano as town
-(I read one of Italiano's games)
-I post that I read one of Italiano's games and that I think he's town
-(I read Italiano's other game)
-I post that I read on of Italiano's other games and that I think he's town.

I hope that was enough that you feel ready to share your opinion on me.

there r still 2 points I want:
1. WHY did u read his games (and there is no correct answer; just give me ur thought process on why it was worthwhile to invest time on reading one of his ganes)
2. What did u see on those games, maybe in a broad way, to make u think he was more townie for this

1. This game was moving very slowly at the time, not a lot of activity, so I read three games: two Italiano games and one Porkens game. I wanted to learn more.
2. Italiano in both games (and he was town in both ways) speaks and writes the same way. He has short points with his semi-spontaneous thoughts and he has long posts where he quotes people and speaks with them point by point. In both games, he makes the same sort of pushes on people. In general, I see a lot of similarities between his two town games and his current game.

The second Italiano game I read was also MiniMegabyte's first game. In that game she also did the "I'm confused" thing, so that was disappointing to see that she was still doing that in this game. She was town in that game too. That game doesn't teach me about her alignment though, because even though she played similarly and she was town that game, she either is figuring things out is scum and figured out she can keep doing that, or she hasn't quite figured things out and she's town. So that's NAI.

The game I read of Porkens was a blitz game and he played COMPLETELY differently. In the current game, he is constantly pushing and asking questions, but in that blitz game he hung back and was pretty passive and not even super active. However, Porkens has been on this site a long time, and as T-Bone said earlier in this game the more experienced a player is, the worse that meta is. So of the hundred games that Porkens has played, I don't think I learn anything about Porkens' alignment either. Plus, Porkens style in this game where he pushes and makes everyone justify their words and their actions could just be a strategy for how he plays in newbie games (he plays in a lot of games, it's tough to sift through).

So after reading those three games, I'm starting to agree with T-Bone when he says that "meta is trash". I read three games, got AI, NAI, NAI on the three people I was keeping track of, so in relation to the time I spent, I didn't really learn much.

That said, I'll probably keep reading old games and thinking like this, because it's fun and I want to stay active and involved and keep learning while helping the town. So we'll see.

This post I like.

[Porkens]

who do u want on the gallows, porken?

Thanks for asking, i is of and made a readslist:

Italiano
SK/noob

Mini

Tbone
Shelly

Hat/mic

Genius

VOTE: genius[/v]







P. Edit gah you guys are gunna make me look like a copycat.

[Porkens]

VOTE: genius

[Porkens]

I ISO’d and made*

[Porkens]

So genius votes for mini in 249 after mic and I express suspicion on her. Then invites in 372 after I said I dint love her as the exile today. In 411 he votes for red after both italV and SJR espresso suspicion.
Other than that I don’t see a lot of solving or expressing reads with reasons.

[Porkens]

Wow that was fast.

Red sorry I had you on my notes I think you are in the Same level as mini

[Porkens]

Yes, wait for a claim. One thing is for sure, if genius does flip scum, none of the people who just voted for him are is prtner.

[Porkens]

I don’t think any partner is that eager to bus. That was

fast

.

[Porkens]

I’d say almost certainly

[Porkens]

So genius votes for mini in 249 after mic and I express suspicion on her. Then invites in 372 after I said I dint love her as the exile today. In 411 he votes for red after both italV and SJR espresso suspicion.
Other than that I don’t see a lot of solving or expressing reads with reasons.

[Porkens]

Word asked me who I wanted to exile today and while I was typing up my readslist both red and mini said they would choose genius and then italiano did as we all around the same time. It was just in the air I guess

[Porkens]

I’m liking Sunflower Guy so far. Welcome to the thread!

We still need to decide who exactly to eliminate though. So who will that be? I do notice a wagon on Redados, and I’m not getting very town-like vibes from him... I’ll just keep my vote here until I’m convinced otherwise.

VOTE: Redados

How about that one

[Porkens]

Then, up popped the Genius wagon. Porkens started it. Would Scum!Porkens make a sudden push like that if word was their partner? Yes, actually. I think they're bold enough to do so, but also I think they'd wait a bit. Italiano? He's a strong town read for me and hoping on second strikes me as in character.

You sure about that?

[Porkens]

Italiano, why did you hop on this BW? without any further agreement / disagreement on the vote. There are 2 people on and i'd like to hear his defense before voting

^ 7:33 pm my time

A 3-person bandwagon. I can see how this is a solid vote, so I'm going to place this at E-1. GeniusGamer is my biggest sus as stated before.

^ 7:58 pm. So twenty-five minutes later with no time for him to make a defense.

Hmm…

Can someone else sniff at this and tell me if I’m reaching?

I will totally decide someone is scum and death tunnel them, reading everything they say as suspicious.

It’s a fair ping. But it’s not a scum slip. Imo.

[Porkens]

I don’t believe you.

[Porkens]

In the event that genius is mafia, he is fishing for town power roles. Don’t enable this.

For example: no one should say “you can’t be a mason, I’m the cop!” Or something like that.

[Porkens]

I believe him because Mason is the worst fakeclaim for mafia at L-1. Because at this point there's no reason not to Lim him unless his Mason partner claims. I'm not saying the partner needs to do it. But now that he's claimed it, we have to test it. And because we have to test it, makes it a bad move for the mafia. It's a little wine in front of me (WIFOM) but not really.

So given all that, is it better for town for the partner to come forward?

[Porkens]

Genius Jellyfish - I had a slight sus about them at first because they didn't get an obvious joke, and then there was the overely long discussion about knowing how other posters think that might have worked as a side-note, but managed to dominate a page or two.

His playstyle is more mechanical than my own, so I don't know to what sense it's a communication style issue. (Italian was also part of that convo, but I read him heavily as town.)

Is this how a mason talks about their partner?

[Porkens]

Ok NOW if there is a different town PR it’s great to claim.

[Porkens]

VOTE: unvote

[Porkens]

I kinda think we can rule out italiano

[Porkens]

I think its fine. The maf are stuck shooting masons for two nights so it’s essentially 5:2 right now.

Italiano I’m ok with Shelly but can you explain your reasons for a TR on mini?

[Porkens]

So that was an all town wagon?

[Porkens]

Where did I express an inability to share my own thoughts?

[Porkens]

Nobody asked.

[Porkens]

Find me a question about my reads that I didn’t answer.

[Porkens]

unless someone claims a different power role, the masons are outed are clear.

Given that, I’m looking at the super-fast wagon on town. I’m betting there is one scum there.

I think italiano’s reaction to the mason claim and fallout seemed townish. That leaves mini and shelly. I can see either of them as maf. I’m deciding which at the moment.

[Porkens]

I

wasn’t

answering the question.

[Porkens]

I

wasn’t

answering the question.

Yeah, that’s the problem. You were asked a question and you didn’t answer it.

I wasn’t answering the question which was directed at Shelly. I was saying “I think shelly is scum and the reason she called the wagon on town because she is scum and

knew

it was on town.” That’s the “other interpretation.” To which, by the way, she agreed.

[Porkens]

VOTE: shelly

[Porkens]

Eh, since there is no claim to be had I can wait a bit.

VOTE: unvote

Let’s squeeze reactions out as much as we can.

[Porkens]

I’m just becoming really fond of flower gal

[Porkens]

Be more aggressive

[Porkens]

I am not voting for t-bone.

I will take another look at word hat.

Red shading me today just as we are about to eliminate Shelly pings my radar.

I’m not sure how I feel about shelly’s reaction.

But I’m definitely not currently voting for TBone.

[Porkens]

We had 22 hours and word hadn’t even responded.

[Porkens]

Why bother to declare intent when the person hasn’t had a chance to speak?

[Porkens]

*if you aren’t going to give them the chance to speak?

[Porkens]

You would rather the day “just be over” than give a possibly town player the chance to defend themselves?

Quite a bit has happened since they last posted. Why wouldn’t you want to hear their thoughts on recent events?

[Porkens]

Spicy. I’ll put something together for your consideration.

[Porkens]

Hey y'all. I've read through Micc and Word, and then reread with each potential partner. I will do a little writeup later tonight before I got to bed. For now, here are my raw notes:

Spoiler:

Readthrough of Micc and Word
Questions MM
Votes ItalianoVD
Questions ItalianoVD
Questions ShellyC - Defends TBone
Feels “betrayed” by TBone
Unvotes ItalianoVD with no read

—-234 Readslist:—-
Calls out Shelly for Hypocrisy and noonish reasoning but leans town
Shades noblenoob
Susses MM compared to Shelly
ItalianoVD seems pretty town
Redados - likes engagement but doesn’t think Italiano push was justified
GG - not memorable
Porkens - calls me scum by play but “respects my town game” to let it slide
TBone - page 3 RVS was sus and sitting there to page 10 was more so. Calls out for scum read and weak scumhunting.

Votes MM

Encourages GG to vote MM

—-Word321 replaces in——

Questions Red about reading Italiano games and TR
Qs T-Bone on Micc Read
Defends self against Tbone, criticize for tunneling - parks votes
Questions Red
“bating” excuse to unvote Tbone
Votes Shelly - “ok” tackling copycat

MM Probably Town
T-Bone Probably Town
Red Probably Town

——MiccWord and IVD——

Italiano does not suspect micc based on the latter vote on himself
Italiano “assumes” micc’s vote is serious, would like to hear from other players
Italiano pivots to Redados
Micc confirms out of RVS - therefore the vote is serious - but then…
Micc goes to tbone and Italiano goes to me
Italiano says he isn’t feeling Micc 74, but says the wording sounds townie “but I don’t know”

—-Italiano Reds List in 187—-
Tbone town
Mini is town
Shelly is town
NN is townlean
Micc is null
Porkens is null
GG is scumlean for interaction between Micc and Tbone
Redados is scum LAMIST
Italiano talks with nn, red, gg
Italiano goes after me, then posts a new reads list:
Slight change on mini, shelly, and micc; give mini benefit of the doubt, shelly just seems towny, micc “reevaluating that way makes me think town” lots of qualification <- no elimination group
In 287 italiano questions shelly for her vote on micc - they are both town reads.
Later calls shelly town

—-Italiano readslist—-
Agrees with SJR realist but questions her towered on him
Questions Shelly on Hypocrisy
Defended a perceived townread on Micc
Welcome Word, calls both he and tone town
In 585 Italiano says scum are between shelly and word.
Votes Shelly instead of micc
No posts from word
Talks himself out of shelly
Hammers


—-MiccWord and MM—-

Some questioning of T-bone centered Micc/no interaction with Word

—-MiccWord and Red—

Micc joins Red’s RVS vote
Red jumps off right away

—Red read list 43—
Micc is in teaching/explaining mode null

Thanks micc for guidance

Red-read list 718
Micc - teaching mode, goofy tone interaction, want to hear more

Asks micc for reads - neutral still
Answers word321 and asks for read
Word asks more - Red answers
Announces he could be convinced to hang hat guy
Metas hat guy
Calls hat scum

—MiccWord and ShellyC—
Talks to micc about lurking
Accuses micc of pocketing
Challenges micas vote
Votes micc
unvotes when he replaces out
Calls him hat guy
Middle reads list
Word tries to Lynch shelly
Votes word
—MiccWord and T-Bone—
Votes micc
Calls micc scummy
Calls micc scummy again
Calls micc scummy again
Calms Shelly at E-1

[Porkens]

Alrighty lemme make some words here.

ISO of Micc and Word321

1. Before replacing out, Micc pushed a wagon on MM. This looks like a real attempt at getting a miscancel rather than bussing because there's no reason to bus here and MM was a relatively easy target. At one point, Micc encourages GG to vote for MM as well.

Conclusion: MM is not partnered with MiccWord.

2. Micc's early interactions with T-Bone are nuanced enough that they look like a genuine interaction between non-aligned players. It's not just question/answer. There is a subtext of suspicion and emotion which I think is hard to fake. After Word replaces in, T-Bone continues to press his scum read and Word resorts to the "baiting" argument. Again, if they are paired this is a good opportunity for T-Bone to back off and for them to consolidate on Shelly, which doesn't happen.

Conclusion: T-Bone is not partnered with MiccWord

3. Micc shades redados in his realist. Later, Word questions redados about reading IDV's games and subsequent TR. Once Red answers, Word just ignores them. These could both be some kind of distancing, but I would suggest evaluating Red on his own merits and look for other likelier partners.

Conclusion: There are some mild WIFOM connections with Redados, but these would only be supporting evidence to a larger case on Red. Not likely partnered with MiccWord based on this alone.

Reading MiccWord with Others

1. MiccWord + T-Bone: T-Bone calls Micc scummy all day. This is just an unbelievable amount of bussing to be taken seriously unless you want to get deeply paranoid.

Conclusion: No change. T-Bone is not partnered with Micc/Word.

2. MiccWord + ShellyC: Shelly was aggressive towards Micc, and called him out more than once. When Word321 replaces, she puts him at null, then when he votes for her, she votes for him. Again, this is a lot of interaction that seems genuine rather than bussing.

Conclusion: ShellyC is not partnered with MiccWord

3. MiccWord + Redados: Micc joins Red's RVS vote. Red mostly reads Micc as "helpful teacher." Red calls Micc neutral. Red interacts with Hatguy, does a meta analysis, and calls him scum. This would be completely unnecessary bussing.

Conclusion REVISED: Redados is not partnered with MiccWord

4. MiccWord + MM: MM questions Micc on some T-Bone related stuff. There is no interaction with Word at all. This behavior could be possible distancing, but combined with Micc's push to get MM eliminated, I find it doubtful.

Conclusion: No Change, MM is not partnered with MiccWord

So, to sum up, I think it's very unlikely that Micc/Words partner is T-Bone, ShellyC, Redados, or MM.

Next up...Italiano

[Porkens]

I'll start with the conclusion that

Italiano is probably MiccWord's partner.

Reading through the ISO of Micc and Word, several things stand out, again:

Micc votes Italiano in what seems like RVS. However, Italiano asks Micc to confirm that vote was serious. Micc replies that it was, in fact, serious. Instead of continuing the discussion at that point, however, Micc goes on to interact with TBone and Shelly. Much later, Micc unvotes Italiano with no explanation or stronger scum read.

This, to me, looks like distancing.

In Micc's reads list, he simply has Italiano down as "seems pretty town."

No critical analysis at all.- no mention of his vote sitting there for pages.

After word replaces in, There is no interaction with Italiano, at all.

I don't think Word mentions him once.

Looking at MiccWord and Italiano together:

Italiano does not find Micc's vote on himself suspicious, although he tells us that he assumes it is a serious vote.
However, instead of pursuing anything related to that, Italiano pivots to Red.
Meanwhile, Micc confirms that his vote signifies a departure from RVS (ie his vote on Italiano is serious) but then starts focusing on T-Bone.

Why don't either of them follow up on their interactions?

Italiano says that he "isn't feeling" Micc 74 but that "the wording sounds townie but I don't know." and then later sticks Micc in the "null" zone in his reads list.
After that, Italiano talks with NN, Red, and GG. Not long from there he says micc's "reevaluating that way makes me think town" and puts him in a no-elimination group. Finally, Italiano questions Shelly on her vote for Micc, stating that they are both town reads.

This progression isn't based on any actions on Micc's part that I can see. Other than Micc "reevaluating" a couple of reads, I don't see a natural justification for this change.

Towards the end of the day, Italiano agrees with SJR's reads list but warns "I'm suspicious of people who townread me ".

I'm not sure if this is pocketing or LAMIST or what, but it's something.

About the time Word replaced in, Italiano was leaning in to ShellyC. He welcomes Word, and calls both he and T-Bone town. Then, in 585, Italiano says scum are between Shelly and Word, but votes for Shelly. There are no posts from word for some time. Italiano publicly talks himself out of voting for shelly and hammers Word.

This unnatural and conflicting reads progression looks like an attempt to first save, then bus, a mafia partner.

Conclusion: Italiano is partnered with MiccWord

VOTE: ItalianoVD

I believe this is correct. There are a smattering of other associative as I've described, but in the unlikely event that this flips town, I'll reevaluate at that time.

[Porkens]

Hmmm this is a really good post.

As Micc is an SE, would Micc be bussing MM, while MM distances from Micc/Word? is that possible

I think it's possible, but the push from Micc looked genuinely like he wanted it to go through. He encouraged GG to get on the wagon, and I recall there being a bit of suspicion on MM around that time, so it was in the air anyway. For that reason, I think the pairing is unlikely.

[Porkens]

Yep, I think we are on the same page!

[Porkens]

I only wrote that at the top after I completed my analysis, but that doesn't really answer your question.

I don't think I'm influenced too much by confbias in this case. I did suspect Italiano's motive for that hammer. However, when I read through, I tried to do it as objectively as possible, note the interactions, and then analyze them on their own merits. Anyone is free to analyze my notes and challenge how I have interpreted events, or pick apart my analysis based on the facts. I'm fairly confident that my conclusions will hold up to the scrutiny, though.

[Porkens]

So now there is suspicion on Italiano when wasnt he the one that everyone was saying that he was town from the beginning? I am not eaxctly confident on this as he is playing exactly the same as the game i last played with him where he was town.

Then again this was the only game i have ever played with them as it was my first ever game on site.
I can see all the points you are all making but for some reason in my gut i don't feel Italiano is scum here.

Of course if the vote goes through and i am wrong then obviously i have a lot of thinking to do because i am not doing something right.

Because of everything i have explained above, i am not going to vote Italiano unless someone can change my mind because to me it seems unlikely.

That's cool, I'll give it a try: take a look at this progression:

Spoiler:

I’m liking Sunflower Guy so far. Welcome to the thread!

We still need to decide who exactly to eliminate though. So who will that be? I do notice a wagon on Redados, and I’m not getting very town-like vibes from him... I’ll just keep my vote here until I’m convinced otherwise.

VOTE: Redados

Welcome to the game word321. Happy to have you. Personally, I still think TBone and the Micc slot (You) is a town vs town interaction. Hopefully I’m right.

As of right now, I only see a couple players I could vote for instead of Red. I still feel a little questionable about Genius especially with his recent vote, so I could maybe go there. Porkens is the other player I’ve not been too high on. Everyone else seems like town to me. If any of my townread players are scum then kudos to you. I don’t really like the partnership thing, but if I had to guess I’d say Red/Porkens.

Word is town.

Alright so with these new events in mind. I can assume:

Town:
Genius
SJReaver
Myself
Porkens
TBone
Mini
Red

That leaves Shelly and Word (Micc) as scum

After the masons claim, Word is scum.

Well I guess I will get the wagon started on Shelly.

VOTE: Shellyc

Since Word is already at 2 I figure to put pressure on this slot and see what happens.

Let's Kill Shelly tho.

Eh, since there is no claim to be had I can wait a bit.

VOTE: unvote

Let’s squeeze reactions out as much as we can.

I like it. I learned that last game when scum self hammered and ruined the chance of further discussion.

Note that line in bold

hmm
too many posts

VOTE: Shelly
im ok tackling copycat
id rather go there than on my own slot, thats for sure
and there is a small detail, but hers was the only slot that didnt immediatly vote on gg
ill try to review later the wagon on genius on detail to see how it rly went
today im kind of busy, so ill be brief
if u have some questions, ill try to answer em if i see em

Two posts from word, one with 0 content and the other with a vote

agreeing

with Italiano.

Sorry, I was out. Before I hammer I’m re-evaluating everything. As of right now Genius, SJ, myself, and Mini are who I am banking on being town. Almost 100%. I don’t know about everyone else, especially if Word flips town. Anyway.

VOTE: Word321

Word is dead. For what? Agreeing that ShellyC should be the elimination?
Note that the "hammering and ruining the chance for further discussion" argument no longer applies.

I can't see a logical progression here, which makes me think there is a

different

logic to it, ie. bussing.

[Porkens]

Okay so if we were going off you theory of distancing would you then say that post 16 is a way of distancing extremely early?

Sure! I don't know what the statistics are on mafia voting their partners in RVS but it seems like a tempting strategy.

[Porkens]

So now there is suspicion on Italiano when wasnt he the one that everyone was saying that he was town from the beginning? I am not eaxctly confident on this as he is playing exactly the same as the game i last played with him where he was town.

My suspicion is based on his interactions with flipped scum. If we had flipped ShellyC instead, I probably wouldn't think IDV was particularly scummy.

I'd be willing to look at that game if you want to link it.

[Porkens]

Alright, as expected. You make a very compelling argument and if I wasn’t me I’d probably believe you. I will make my case against you. At that point the town will decide who to vote for. I have no problem getting eliminated if it means you are taken out the next day.

Wow, you must have a lot of confidence in your case if you are that sure I'm scum. I look forward to reading it.

[Porkens]

vote Italiano today and win the game right now.
Vote him tomorrow and win the game.
I’m fine either way.

But, I could be wrong, so let’s game it out a bit. It’s 6:1 now.

If you eliminate me today it’s 4:1 tomorrow - most likely with the following player list
T-Bone
Italiano
MM
Red
Shelly

If, at that point, you eliminate italiano, WHICH YOU HAVE TO DO, the game will be over.

However, if I’m wrong, it’ll be 2:1 with three of (T-Bone, MM, Red, Shelly). So today, I’ll be focusing one these players.

[Porkens]

I’m not sure what you mean exactly.

[Porkens]

T-Bone, do you think Italiano’s defense and counter case are genuine?

[Porkens]

Gotcha.

[Porkens]

Interesting. So aside from me who your pick for likeliest partner?

[Porkens]

So I really think Italiano is the last scum. But public opinion seems to be against me so I may be the elimination today. That’s ok with me as long as you eliminate Italiano tomorrow. I believe at that point the game will be over.

However, I’m not always right, so I want to look ahead to the possibility of the T-Bone, MM, Red, Shelly endgame. So today I’ll focus on reading those players and leave you with my recommendations should I be eliminated and italiano flip town. Again, I think this is less likely but I don’t want to leave you with nothing if I’m wrong.

[Porkens]

It’s kind of a tough one. I can see T-Bone and Micc bussing that hard if they were scum together. I think that’s slightly more likely than MM being biased, although I want to reread that phase of the game again. Rendados doesn’t seem like scum to me, and I don’t recall seeing a compelling case on him. You think you are in the same sort of grey area as MM at the moment.

[Porkens]

Bussed not biased

[Porkens]

Oh I won’t be making a case, just kibitzing from the sidelines. I’m pretty much dead already so I’m just leaving a will.

[Porkens]

Ok, I think if italiano isn’t the partner than you are.

[Porkens]

Sure you will. If I am eliminated and I prove to be town what will be your plan then? Make a case on Mini or TBone or Shelly again. What are you gonna keep making wrong cases until it’s Lylo?

I feel like Italiano is right here. Whatever you try to frame me as, I'm townie. And I'll try my best to prove you wrong. because you're

wrong

.

Good! You will have to, because from my next standing of the gamestate, u will be target #1 if this should go to a four way.
But like I said, it won’t, because italiano is mafia.

[Porkens]

My understanding*

[Porkens]

*3way

[Porkens]

Italiano, I like it. Let’s make a death pact and then solve the game from the grave.

[Porkens]

*in advance, of course

[Porkens]

My plan to what? Win after I’m dead?

[Porkens]

Italiano, I like it. Let’s make a death pact and then solve the game from the grave.

Okay let’s do it. What are you thinking?

You only need to worry about this if you are town. That being said, my idea is for we of the death pact to talk about each of the 4 players who will be eligible for the 3 way. Now for this to work, we both have to just ignore the fact that we scum read each other and put ourselves mentally into a world where we are both dead, and both flipped town.

I've given my reads of the 4, what are yours?

My plan to what? Win after I’m dead?

No, your plan to just keep making wrong cases.

Again, you really don't need to stress about this if you are town.

[Porkens]

*unless you are town

[Porkens]

Again, you really don't need to stress about this if you are town.

Avoiding the question? hmmm

What question are you referring to? sorry I'm not seeing it but I am tired.

[Porkens]

I've given my reads of the 4, what are yours?

What are you adamant that I'm the scum out of the 4

ShellyC, you have been scum read by enough people in this game to get to E-1. It's inevitable, in a 3p situation that you are going to be the target of elimination, so you need to be ready for that. I'm calling you scum NOW so you can start to think about how you are going to defend yourself THEN. Your reaction is overly defensive in my opinion, so be prepared to explain why it isn't. And try, as much as you can, to generate as much original content as possible. Avoid repeating what others have said, even if you agree. Find a way to say it in your own words.

[Porkens]

Sorry, I meant something like are you avoiding Italiano's statement: "No, your plan to just keep making wrong cases."

Are you implying that you are making wrong cases if you assure Italiano to not stress about this?

Well, technically I guess that's true because I think Italiano is the last scum, and other case I make I do, to a fair extent, believe is wrong.

I made the best case I could based on interactions with Micc. I believe Italiano was/is his partner. I'll die for that case with no regrets. I sincerely hope that town will eliminate Italiano tomorrow.

BUT I MIGHT BE WRONG! And in that case, I'd like to have an intellectually honest conversation about the 4 players who may be alive in endgame if I am.

[Porkens]

I've given my reads of the 4, what are yours?

Well given that scenario I don’t think anything changes as far as my reads are concerned. I still have:

Redados >> Shellyc >> TBone >> Mini.

In that order

Great, thank you. I think Shelly and Mini are fairly obvious reads, but I'd like to dig in to Redados and TBone. Why do you find Red scummier than TBone?

[Porkens]

What do you find scummy about me? I'll converse geniunely.

There's lots of time left in the day and I've basically agreed to be the elimination and Italiano has agreed to be the elimination tomorrow. So that's kind of settled and now we can talk about the remaining possibilities. There's no rush.

[Porkens]

Yes, what Shelly said.

In response to your question shelly: my scum read of you was based on the way you seemed to be repeating points made by other players - many times using the same words. Now I am not saying that means you are scum. but that is why I scum read you at the time. And other's were on your wagon to e-1, so I think that's evidence that folks did find you scummy for it. I do think, though that you are being genuine.

[Porkens]

So T-Bone, Redados, and MM then?

[Porkens]

In response to your question shelly: my scum read of you was based on the way you seemed to be repeating points made by other players - many times using the same words.

So if I make more original points I am townie? That's kinda NAI in my opinion. Using the same words? So if I use a dictionary I'd be townread? Doesn't really make sense.

I mean, you asked and I answered. If I'm being unfair I apologize; that's just how I read it.

[Porkens]

I've basically agreed to be the elimination and Italiano has agreed to be the elimination tomorrow.

MiniMegabyte see this. This is gamesolving, making sure the scum is eventually eliminated

Well, hehe, actually I meant to post this earlier:

As an SE I feel obligated to point out that this is not generally a good strategy. Death pacts such as this can easily lead to 2 dead townies with night kills in between. If one of us isn't scum, this is really self destruction for town. So, in general, I don't recommend it.

We got here because I made a case on Italiano, and his reaction was to case me in return. He defended himself AND went after me in retaliation. As I see it, he framed this as a 1 v 1, and in this case, since I'm more than a little sure he is mafia, I'm going along with that. If I had second thoughts about him, I'd be begging off, but the way he reacted was like a cornered animal.

But in general, this is bad and don't go saying to anyone "well I saw Porkens do it and it worked and we won and so I'm gunna do it!" This is a special situation where daddy has to smoke, but don't you dare start the habit because of me.

[Porkens]

I've basically agreed to be the elimination and Italiano has agreed to be the elimination tomorrow.

MiniMegabyte see this. This is gamesolving, making sure the scum is eventually eliminated

Can I just say something, two people being scum read the most right now both willing to be eliminated? Doesn’t that seem to you that they may both be town? I’m not sure

He doesn't really have a choice, I think. My case against him is pretty solid - far better than anything else that's been in the game so far or that he could come up with on me. If he HADN'T OMGUSed on me then he would have to try to make a better case on someone else; and he can't because there isn't one. In fact, my own case ruled out everyone else from being Micc's partner.

His only play is to get me eliminated FIRST, which he can do because public sentiment is against me because I was so cagey in the early game, and then try to worm out of it tomorrow.

[Porkens]

Can I just say something, two people being scum read the most right now both willing to be eliminated? Doesn’t that seem to you that they may both be town? I’m not sure

Scumslip again? because you know they aren't scum as YOU ARE THE SCUM.

But given the situation why would she be saying

anything

? If she were scum, wouldn't she just stay quiet here?

[Porkens]

Can I just say something, two people being scum read the most right now both willing to be eliminated? Doesn’t that seem to you that they may both be town? I’m not sure

Scumslip again? because you know they aren't scum as YOU ARE THE SCUM.

But given the situation why would she be saying

anything

? If she were scum, wouldn't she just stay quiet here?

that's just my thought, I mean she could stay quiet, but she'd get called out for it

T-Bone's not getting called out for it. Neither is Red.

[Porkens]

Okay, okay, okay. Let’s push the brakes for a second. Who OMGUSed who now? I voted you first and had been You caused me then voted me. I then cased you and defended myself. Chill out, why do you keep framing things so incorrectly. Your case against me is faulty coming from you because it incriminates yourself. You don’t have the have the moral authority to have the case you do and you act as if it’s foolproof and cannot be poked with any holes.

The greatest thing about a death pact is I don’t have to worry about you anymore. I’m going to flip town, and then you are going to die. It literally does not matter how much you accuse me because nothing will change!

Why are you worried about it? According to you, the game is over when I die. Why care how much I suspect you at all? Why don’t you feel relaxed and at peace, like I do?

[Porkens]

Red and T-Bone Is like you both to be on record about your reads and reasons of:

T-bone,
Shelly
MM
Red

[Porkens]

I appreciate the reads but the real goal is to have a tertiary scumread. It sounds like that’s t-bone for you if reading it right.

[Porkens]

I appreciate the reads but the real goal is to have a tertiary scumread. It sounds like that’s t-bone for you if reading it right.

At this point, yes.

I hope you also enjoyed my read of Red.

I do want to stress at this point that T-Bone has done NOTHING scummy and has done NOTHING to hurt the town.

I don’t know about that. T-Bone’s response to my case on Italiano surprised me. I think T-Bone should know me well enough to see that while I might be wrong on Italiano, after making that case he really shouldn’t scumread me.

Now I don’t really know what t bone is thinking of course, or why he isn’t posting in this game. I haven’t called him out on it because i want to allow him the space to play his game his way, and lurking might be part of it. Being quiet and just watching the game can be a powerful tool, and if he comes back with a decent analysis, then I’m cool with it. He’s also largely townread, so he might now feel any pressure to post. And this could all be town behavior.

On the other hand, it could be scum behavior too. Like I said before, T-Bone harbussing his SE partner MiccWord pretty much assures he’ll be townread for a good couple days in game, maybe all the way to the end. In that scenario, his behavior now makes perfect sense. He agrees with the prevailing scumread, and just chills.

Right now, I think my advice to town on a hypothetical day 4 would be to eliminate TBone. That could change from this point based on what happens in the rest of this day, but that’s where my head is at right now.

[Porkens]

Vote: Micc

Statistically, one of us has to be mafia, and since I am not, obviously Micc is. This math is 100% foolproof.

“One of us” this is really funny in retrospect. What a beautiful false dichotomy.

So if most of us are sure Porkens is scum, what are we waiting for instead of eliminating him? Because if people are so sure then there should be no need for extra discussion time. However unless you are doubting that porkens is in fact not scum and he is actually town in that case why are they being voted up?

Weird bout of impatience here. What is this?

To be fair, a lot has been said since your post yesterday, but this is the only thing you mention. It just seems like cherry picking one thing to engage with just for the sake of it. Also out of all 4 MM is the least possibly scum, so why even dig there?


On case: I don’t really buy that T, my case is logical and true and the conclusions follow the evidence. Italiano’s response was manipulative and misrepresentative, and the fact that he OMGUSed me should also be a major ping to you.

[Porkens]

As for "agreeing" with the prevailing scumread...I'm pretty sure I put us on this trajectory by saying "I think it is most likely Porkens for reasons...then Redados, then Minimegabyte...because I townread Shelly and Italiano for reasons".

If you want to try and argue that someone else is more responsible for the current game state, by all means. But don't try to re-frame the events as something else entirely.

My last post was 3 hours ago. That hardly qualifies as lurking.

I do know you well enough. Just as you should rightly know I am very capable of bussing Micc/Word in the way that I bussed them...I know you're capable of writing a case for anyone to be scum. That's NAI. I've evaluated why you say you think Italino is scum, and I feel that the reasons I think he is town outweigh them.

Can you elaborate on why you think that he is town?

He speaks in a town-like way and he hammered scum. Is there more to it that I'm missing?

Well I think he townslipped on Day 1, which is the biggest factor of course. But to me, he's trying to figure out the game, I don't see that he's trying to manipulate the game state, and I don't feel like he has the knowledge of the game that someone who is mafia does.

It's actually the biggest flaw for Porkens, you, and myself actually. (except I know I'm town). I'd be surprised if it was anyone outside that elimination-pool tbh.

So you explain how you have “set up the dominos” because you have laid the gamestate. Good, great so you take responsibility if and when there are two dead townies on the ground.

Porkens->Italiano->T-Bone
Done deal.

[Porkens]

Well thanks. You just said Itáliano was trying to solve, but you have him at least third down in competence?

[Porkens]

“As for "agreeing" with the prevailing scumread...I'm pretty sure I put us on this trajectory by saying "I think it is most likely Porkens for reasons...then Redados, then Minimegabyte...because I townread Shelly and Italiano for reasons".

If you want to try and argue that someone else is more responsible for the current game state, by all means. But don't try to re-frame the events as something else entirely.“

^^^these are your exact words. You claim responsibility for the trajectory. You define that trajectory of porkens, red, Mm. You then defy me to argue against it.

[Porkens]

Ohhh sorry I misunderstood then.

Now, to be fair, Italiano was the one who suggested it:

In conclusion I feel like a partner is plausible from Porkens' ISO. Both Italiano and Porkens are possible partners according to what I saw.

And that’s fair, but if I do get eliminated make sure you eliminate Porkens the next day. It would only be fair and consistent.

[Porkens]

Either way, there's a reason I quoted you and said "this is an example of why I think Porkens is scum". I'm not going to argue with you. If you're actually town, I'm not going to (rightly) convince you that you're scum. If you're mafia, I do not expect you to go "damn, you got me, vote: myself GG"

By all means, show the playerlist that you are not actually trying to manipulate in the way I think you are. If you're sincerely trying to convince me otherwise, arguing about semantics is not the way to do it!

I’m not really trying to convince you, I’m trying to make sure they don’t give you an automatic pass on the hypothetical day 4.

[Porkens]

What do you think the significance of that is? Let's say we decided to take him up on his offer and eliminate him first. What does that actually accomplish for scum!Italiano?

Pedit: That's fine. Like I said, I am absolutely capable of power bussing a scumbuddy on Day 1. It is fair to weigh in a vacuum. I know the difference between that and what I actually did, but an outside observer might not.

Flip that around and tell me why I’m your #1 scumread right now.

[Porkens]

Erratic, unobservant and poor discernment of what people say. Anyone playing like you play is bad for town. The fact that you have years of experience and are playing like this makes me scratch my head. I wouldn’t expect townyou (even if you were rusty) to play this way so the logical conclusion is that you are scum.

Now you are just making things up out of whole cloth.

[Porkens]

Só italiano your angle tomorrow is going to be “a Zoe porkens was town well how could I have known that? His play made no sense as town I guess he was just bad.”

Hopefully no one falls for that.

[Porkens]

What do you think the significance of that is? Let's say we decided to take him up on his offer and eliminate him first. What does that actually accomplish for scum!Italiano?

Pedit: That's fine. Like I said, I am absolutely capable of power bussing a scumbuddy on Day 1. It is fair to weigh in a vacuum. I know the difference between that and what I actually did, but an outside observer might not.

Flip that around and tell me why I’m your #1 scumread right now.

It's a different situation since you are already at E-1.

Ok if you say so.

[Porkens]

I think she’s town based on the fact that Micc was scum and I believe you are his partner. Oops!

[Porkens]

I’m not really trying to convince you, I’m trying to make sure they don’t give you an automatic pass on the hypothetical day 4.

Porkens, why are you so worried about the "hypothetical day 4" when your biggest SR is italiano

It would be irresponsible of me to ignore the possibility that I’m wrong.

[Porkens]

Good morning! I'm back. I've been keeping up a bit, and I've got a few things to say. I'll have some words for you by this afternoon, so please hold off on any carpentry 'till then.

[Porkens]

Hiya

So I read the last couple pages again and I'm just not sure who in the f4 I would suggest at this point. All are fairly equal. Red, T-Bone, Shelly, MM in that order at this point I guess. It will be interesting to see what happens. Good luck y'all!

hammer away.

[Porkens]

ItalianoVD, are you really going to champion your own wagon tomorrow?

[Porkens]

on a scale of 0-100, how reachy is your case on me?

[Porkens]

If you weren't going to flip me today, who would you flip?

[Porkens]

Gimmie three reasons? (This is not a trap)

[Porkens]

I guess I can ask you why you have Red over TBone now in 997.

I was looking back at my new art era associations and reminded myself that red and micc showed some associates earlier on.

I don’t really know how scummy I really look to T-Bone but part of me thinks he’s overly sure on me and should be able to tel that I’m town. He seems very ok with our death pact but I don’t recall him really scumreading you.

Shelly: I go back and forth on it.

[Porkens]

Once I'm gone y'all are going to be on your own.

There will be some tough decisions to make, and you are going to have to make them without my input.

I can't tell you who to flip in the hypothetical 4p - you have to figure that out for yourselves.

But I can tell you this.

If T-Bone tries to stop the wagon on ItalianoVD tomorrow, flip T-Bone immediately.

[Porkens]

I am most certainly stop that wagon for the record. Let's get that out in the air right now.

You know I’m town.

[Porkens]

Seems to.

[Porkens]

Good luck tomorrow.

[Porkens]

No, that’s up to you. What I’m saying is that the more we try to analyze and make sense of what doesn’t make sense the more confused we’ll be. I’m not gonna allow myself to do it anymore.

TBone hasn’t done anything scummy up to this point until he allowed Redados to sheep him and then went and killed him. I am leaning towards us both being town so that’s it for me. By all means do your iso for both TBone and I, but I don’t need anymore evidence. If you really are the scum then congratulations. I don’t believe so though.

VOTE: T-Bone

I won’t be changing my vote.

Me neither. This is game over.
VOTE: T-Bone

I won't be changing my vote.

Classic Shelly!

[Porkens]

Classic Shelly!

I did that on purpose LOL

I figured