Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[Persivul]

VOTE: farside

^That's a vote for hottest babe on the site BTW

[Persivul]

It's not your ego I want to rub...

[Persivul]

[Persivul]

BTW my recent games if you're interested are under the name Rabid Schnauzer.

[Persivul]

Page 1 and I'm L-3!

[Persivul]

I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.

That's a scum charge, but you don't vote it.

VOTE: Drew

[Persivul]

I'd be interested in a thing I've never seen or done before.
Feel free to call me a dummy dumb-dumb if it suits you, but

what if we all agree that Wake doesn't vote for anyone today?

Hear me out - we obviously want his input and reads throughout the day as much as possible, simply because he is the only conf.town in the game so far.
But we won't be able to lynch scum 100% of the time D1 anyway, even if we had three conf.townies.
So my point is, that

whoever we end up lynching D1, and whatever their flip might end up being, the wagon will only consist of unconfirmed players.

Does that make sense for anyone?

Assume 10:3. With 7 to lynch, it takes 7/10 (70%) of town to come together to lynch scum. If IC doesn't vote, then it takes 7/9 (78%). So, no, I don't think that's a good idea. This of course doesn't consider busing, but I think the principle applies even in a busing scenario.

[Persivul]

If we lynch scum, it would be better to achieve the lynch without his vote, right?

Yes, but it's really tough to get 7 of 9 to agree.

[Persivul]

Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?

We'll see - if it's a Nancy Drew alt she'll eventually go ballistic on me.

[Persivul]

On the flip side, we know we've eliminated a town player from the running for how many town we need to lynch (as an aside... if I'm on the phone, my phone typos that to lunch, advance warning) scum, making it slightly harder to do so.

How much harder I'm not certain, and can't be arsed doing the maths for it, but if anyone else has theories on the suggestion I'm up for hearing them.

Around 11% harder, and in this game that's significant.

[Persivul]

Assume 10:3. With 7 to lynch, it takes 7/10 (70%) of town to come together to lynch scum. If IC doesn't vote, then it takes 7/9 (78%).

How did you get 11%?

The difference divided by the original: 7.8/70. Not sure that's the best way to look at it but that's what I did. Intuitively 11% seems low to me.

[Persivul]

I like your vote, but your reasoning sounds really odd.

Huh. I learned it from you the one time we hydra'd. A weak push with no vote is scummy...

[Persivul]

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2?

Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

That's why scum would put someone at L-2, to avoid the sus of hammering town.

this ^ guy is also added to my scum reads.

Which one, salad or george? George because that's bolded?

[Persivul]

Ok, one more question. Considering you're the one sayign we shouldn't be afraid of votes, how come you haven't put one down yet?

Exactly why I'm voting him.

[Persivul]

I’d rather wait to see everyone post. I also don’t feel compelled to yet. No-one has registered as particularly scummy.

You said you need to poke and prod. That's what votes do at this stage.

[Persivul]

A lot of people skip the rules and assume two week days, so note this:

8.Length of day phases:7 days .

[Persivul]

I’m the miller

Plot twist!

I'd vote Drew but I believe I already am.

[Persivul]

lol brilliant, I don't think any setup review mod would have the balls to approve a Normal with 2 millers.

Agreed.

[Persivul]

I still think that if there's a vig, he should definitely be the target tonight.

First, he's not going to be there tonight. A 2-miller setup is very unlikely, making him very likely to be scum.

Second, we don't even know that we have a vig.

Third, a vig should never shoot someone who's easily lynchable anyway.

[Persivul]

You can lynch me today if you need. I’m happy to be a martyr if you can’t settle on another townie.

So you're that sure we couldn't lynch scum?

Not a serious question. Now that the lynch is AFAIC settled, everything from scum is wifom. But I thought the way he phrased that was interesting.

[Persivul]

I guess why I’m saying that is it is possible he’s also lying.

Look, I’m going to die. That’s fine. But at least consider the possibility of two millers.

If he were "also lying," that would mean zero millers, not two.

[Persivul]

Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.

[Persivul]

Drew-Sta (3)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;

Drew is highly likely to be scum. He's highly likely to be the lynch. That means that everything coming from scum at this point is WIFOM. In my experience, that hurts town more than helps. We need more votes here.

[Persivul]

@Mod Thank you.

VOTE: Drew

I endorse this product or service.

[Persivul]

When I show up as town, what will be your first response in the game eg what will you look to do?

Scum claim.

[Persivul]

IMO we should proceed as follows:

- Lynch Drew sooner rather than later.
- If there is a vig, don't shoot tonight. N1 vig shots are always bad. If you feel you must, shoot a lurker slot that we won't be able to read anyway.

[Persivul]

You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.

This is really lazy.

Everyone learns

info is good don't rush the lynch

in their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.

[Persivul]

Writing this off is both shocking analysis and a clear and identifying statement that you're unable to consider a possibility you haven't set your mind on.

I've considered it and dismissed it. Based on my experience with the normal queue, it's very unlikely that there would be two millers. Other people beat me to it, but I actually find a zero-miller scum gambit more likely than that. People do dumb shit to try to win scummies.

Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.

Explain why.

Sure. He makes a judgment based on probabilities - two millers is low probability. That's fine, as most decisions by town in this game are judgments of probability. But, you rephrase it to imply that he's saying two millers is an impossibility, or that he refuses to consider the possibility. That's gaslighting.

[Persivul]

Well I can explain why everything read scummy that page.
The short version is that it reads fake. Each post come off with empty words and im feeling a lot of buddying coming from you.

Can't argue with something that ambiguous. You do you.

[Persivul]

Scumslip.

Reread it. Slowly.

[Persivul]

...no?

Drew basically said "If you cannot settle on lynching another Townie, lynch me" (and implying he's Town)

To which the response was "are you that sure we couldn't lynch scum?" (asking if Drew is very certain today's lynch would be that of a Townie, even if Drew himself isn't lynched)

How the hell do you get "we should lynch you instead of scum" there?

Exactly.

[Persivul]

This is really simple.

1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.

Let's not overthink this.

[Persivul]

This situation - a D1 counterclaim - is what you dream of as town. Then when you finally get it, people insist on screwing it up.

[Persivul]

Tanner’s 273 & 274 are EXACTLY on point!

Who's?

[Persivul]

You are doing a great job of aggressively trying to get me lynched in five minutes flat.

No, I'm doing a frustratingly poor job of that. I wish I were doing a great job, i.e. more people were voting you.

[Persivul]

I really don't like this from Persivul he's basically not trying to figure anyone out and just lynch the miller claim and if drew is town and manvs is town then isn't that more of a scum benefit?

As said, repeatedly, I see no value in the information derived from a clear wifom situation.

[Persivul]

Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?

Yes, I do, as I've said. I think the wifom potential actually muddies the waters.

[Persivul]

Hi! How is everyone doing? I'll be reading the thread is a little bit. Is there anything I should be aware of from my slot I just replaced?

Er, you could just read the slot's 2-post ISO yourself. You don't really need a recap.

[Persivul]

Dude it's millers, not masons.

[Persivul]

Town person who investigates as scum to a cop.

[Persivul]

Yeah nevermind then. A lynch of those two wouldn't help town at all though and just does no favors.

Point is that many of us agree that a mini normal is extremely unlikely to have two millers, so the first was a fakeclaim.

[Persivul]

I make the statement because I believe you and Pers are playing the person and tunnelled completely on me.

I don't think tunneling is an appropriate term here. I have other scum reads. You're the vote today due to mechanics. When a lynch is pretty obvious, it's difficult to apply pressure to others. That, along with the wifom factor, is why I'm not pressing anyone else today.

[Persivul]

Do we have a tally on any claimed roles currently?

I can't really vote, so I can only really gather basic info and question people.

You could gather info by, you know, reading the fucking game.

[Persivul]

@Wake: Do you know when the mod will let people know you are the IC?

It's in big bold letters in post 2.

[Persivul]

Said it before and I'll say it again...

What will you do when I flip town?

is a scum claim. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. I used it in my very first scum game here. It didn't work then, and it's still scummy af now. Tomorrow is when we deal with what we'll do tomorrow. Like the vig discussion, it's just a distraction from what's going on now.

[Persivul]

I find it interesting that Luca feels like scumcasing me here..?

Why is that interesting? We should either be:
- lynching and moving on (my choice), OR
- pushing players other than Drew

His pushing you is a lot better than all the discussion of what we'll do tomorrow, or what a hypothetical vig should do.

And BTW, his point on your post also crossed my mind at the time. It's a valid point.

[Persivul]

I'm a rolecop.

Mavs is indeed a miller.

I'm headed camping see you in two days.

[Persivul]

With her gone, there’s now less resistance to lynch me and if I’m lynched, when I flip miller, that will give Persivul’s claim more credit.

There's absolutely no way you get lynched before me. Your flip might validate me a little. My flip and the normal guidelines would make you a second IC. I'd prefer to lynch scum today, but if people suspect the two of us, I'm the lynch today, not you.

[Persivul]

Okay. 2 Millers in a game with no way to confirm either is broken. It gives scum two free mislynches. In order to make this game Playable, Town has to have something to confirm the other Miller. Persi's role fits that. 2 Millers without something like a Rolecop is straight up broken.

Correct, and consider my play yesterday. I knew I could check the claim who didn't get lynched,so:
- I was very against the notion of the second claim getting vigged
- I knew all the speculation about what we do tomorrow was unnecessary, so I just wanted to end the day

[Persivul]

@Wake88: I’ve never played with an IC before and looked up the role. The first paragraph does mention how a mod-confirmed IC from the start has fallen out of favor cause it can be boring for the player in this situation. That seems like case I take it?

Wake is always useless like this.

[Persivul]

...Why do you people insist on making this game more complicated than it really is?

farside was shot. She suspected Panda/Luca/Persi. Both Panda's and Luca's slots are horrible (I'd argue Panda's more so than Luca, but ya know). We swing there. Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum,

it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

Yep.

[Persivul]

Still here.

Still alive.

Still IC.

Still useless.

[Persivul]

Scum reads: red panda, luca, knight/persivul.

I just read farside's ISO. I see no PR crumbs, so she was presumably killed for her reads. She scum read saladman. He was replaced by panda. She scum read panda and said she was most confident in that read. Panda looks really bad on page 23.

VOTE: Red Panda

[Persivul]

I'm fine with this one as well tbh, but Luca replacing out doesn't help my read on him at all.

Agreed. A Luca lynch wouldn't disappoint me, I just like salad slot a little better.

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

...Why do you people insist on making this game more complicated than it really is?

farside was shot. She suspected Panda/Luca/Persi. Both Panda's and Luca's slots are horrible (I'd argue Panda's more so than Luca, but ya know). We swing there. Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum,

it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

I'm hesitant on Luca/Panda and I don't think she was killed for her scum reads. She seemed like a really obvTown player that would have easily been taken to LyLo. I think Scum thought she was an easy target to take out. But NKA is tricky because you have to know the mind behind the kills too. Some people take out Strong Townies they don't want to compete with late game, some take out people shit tunneling them.

Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.
Them "clearing" mavs isn't as heavy a commitment for scum as some might imply.

Yeah, but that's something to explore much later down the line. Like, we should be sorting sus people right now. So far I don't think Persivul has acted very scummy. Also, when more PRs are outed, then it'll be abundantly clear if there's too many. (i'm guessing the PR ratio is mostly the same in normals?)

The way Salad has singled out Una/George, Panda keeps pushing Una, and the way Luca's been acting around those two slots too. Make me think s/s is unlikely there.

Honestly, I think Salad and Luca were just low-activity posting. Salad was just responding to me cause I was the one of the main focus at the time, and Luca looked like he was struggling to stay in the game. I don't think either of these slots are readable, and I think their replacements should be given new slates.

I think you’ve got the right idea about Knightmare voting opportunistically, but how do you feel about Panda? The textbook opportunistic vote would be me day 2 after Drew-Sta flipped miller.

It does feel really off, ngl. I'd say it feels more LAMIST than opportunistic though. Everyone knew double miller would be questioned, it was the focal point of D1. It seems like there was no intent to start a wagon, but rather to show off.

Methinks their “gut” feeling was that UnaBombaH attracted attention with no real reason.

The UnaBombaH vote does seem like a weird one though, but Una hasn't been especially pushed this game. So I don't really see it as scum trying to grab LHF. I think I see this more as a vanity wagon?

Thank you for scum claiming with this OMGUS vote. I'm the only vote on you, how does that count as a "wagon gaining traction?"

Because the limelight was on me at the time, and you provided minimal comments on my slot, while voting me. It honestly seems like i'm your vanity wagon right now.

All the mechanical clears aside, and only considering reads or the lack of them....Luca Blight/Tanner/Panda/George?

Tanner is a gutread I cannot shake.
There's something off with the slot, despite all their valiant, good efforts.

Honestly, we shouldn't be basing our reads off gut feelings right now lmao. That feels like D1 trying-to-get-out-of-rvs talk.

Can you go more into detail what's off about him?

This could be a new record. I don't think I've ever seen this much fence sitting in a single post before. Bravo!

[Persivul]

Conftown

Wake88

- IC doing nothing

mavsfan41

- by my understanding of normal millers, he's IC to me. I considered the way far out there idea that a scum universal backup could have made a great play there, but reading up it seems that normal UBs only inherit roles from their own faction. So, I think it's mechanically impossible for him to be scum considering normal rules and my result.

Town

(No particular order within a group)

Riabi

- When I went to make this list, I knew this guy had posted somewhat but couldn't remember what he said. That's usually a bad sign, but I read his ISO, and it looks fine.

Tanner

Knightmare491

Null

UnaBombaH
PranaDevil
GeorgeBailey

These three have all managed to put up a lot of words without really saying much at all. Not the Una I'm used to.

Luca Blight

- Had him in scum initially due to farside's read, but read his ISO and I'm not so sure. If salad slot flips red, 366 might mean luca slot is green. Scum usually aren't so obviously together in reads that early.

Scum

Red Panda

Saladman27

[Persivul]

Persivul - Pushing for a quick lynch, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot the claimed miller? Erm...

Erm...because I knew I was going to rolecop him that night maybe?

[Persivul]

It just hit me btw.
Assume Persivul really checked mavs.
He risked the fact that there WAS indeed a Vig, and his result would've been for nothing.

First, the vig is just idle speculation. The amount of mileage that speculation has received is ridiculous.
Second, even with a vig, N1 is the safest time. They tend to be novice or even night lately. I (as rabid schnauzer) was a vig in a mini normal very recently, and I was novice.

I was more concerned with a scum RB.

[Persivul]

Panda, can you give full reads list? Thanks.

[Persivul]

Actually

VOTE: PD

Let's see how much support this gets.

Prana has moved into scum territory for me, but I still like Panda better. I think we get info on Luca slot from a Panda flip.

[Persivul]

You can't be any worse than Wake. I have no clue why that guy signs up for games. He never does anything.

[Persivul]

wow clearly no one appreciates my contributions

Considering that you're not in our game...why should we?

[Persivul]

A general message to the audience: Please be careful and do NOT post in this game. Thanks.

^ Mod trying to cover for an alt slip

[Persivul]

Is Riabi still in the game? If so he needs a prod.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

Guess I'll do a full reread during work tomorrow.

Friendly neighborhood reminder that we have a little over a real-life day left on the deadline.

Yeah WTF Una.

[Persivul]

I'm happy to flip, as it will conftown mavs, but this should have been done earlier. Starting a new wagon with 1 day left is pretty much a scum claim. You know you should vote somewhere, but you don't want to vote your buddy.

[Persivul]

Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum

In your last post you said that Panda posts were bad and really bad.

[Persivul]

Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.

Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Also, are you serious in saying Panda is scum, or...?

This is very much true.

It's both one alignment or the other.

So, you think mavs is scum too?

[Persivul]

(ANYONE attacking me for not looking at the most recent stuff at this exact second... scummy as fuck, and looking for excuses later).

LOL - you're not allowed to just declare that your prior positions don't matter. Positions can change, but you should be able to explain the change.

[Persivul]

persivul is the last to die out of those as he has to be a scum kill if he's town, because they cannot risk him surviving and outing some of them

You keep saying this. How do you know that scum have roles that are obviously scummy? And why do scum want to 100% conftown mavs, which happens when I flip?

[Persivul]

Part of me thinks you're bad town rather than scum, but the way you're setting me up for a lynch tomorrow doesn't feel like bad town.

[Persivul]

your lack of any worthwhile scum hunting

This from the person who waited until the end of D2 to even read D1?

[Persivul]

Did you miss this?

Conftown

Wake88

- IC doing nothing

mavsfan41

- by my understanding of normal millers, he's IC to me. I considered the way far out there idea that a scum universal backup could have made a great play there, but reading up it seems that normal UBs only inherit roles from their own faction. So, I think it's mechanically impossible for him to be scum considering normal rules and my result.

Town

(No particular order within a group)

Riabi

- When I went to make this list, I knew this guy had posted somewhat but couldn't remember what he said. That's usually a bad sign, but I read his ISO, and it looks fine.

Tanner

Knightmare491

Null

UnaBombaH
PranaDevil
GeorgeBailey

These three have all managed to put up a lot of words without really saying much at all. Not the Una I'm used to.

Luca Blight

- Had him in scum initially due to farside's read, but read his ISO and I'm not so sure. If salad slot flips red, 366 might mean luca slot is green. Scum usually aren't so obviously together in reads that early.

Scum

Red Panda

Saladman27

Una has since moved up somewhat.

That means scum is you, George, and 1 of Panda/Luca.

Just because I don't make wall posts doesn't mean I'm not scum hunting.

[Persivul]

102 - This is a good observation and shows he's already reading for content early in the game
108 - 109 - Read like a natural town reaction to the CC. I doubt scum jumps on it this firmly and this quickly.
116 - In no rush to lynch. Yes, giving town points for this goes against my own attitude. I don't really care.
I like his general attitude in posts like 187, 195, 222.

Is that enough?

[Persivul]

I was just doing meta on Prana and I think he's the more dangerous if scum. He generally seems to win. But I still think Panda flip gives more information.

p-edit: above is to Una
p-edit: yes, Una should give intent and we should wait awhile, although Panda seems to have given up.

[Persivul]

OK, Panda do you want to claim?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

[Persivul]

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2.

Ok, this I do not believe for a second. But I'll give you a pass for now.

It's actually more understandable considering what you just posted. Designer didn't want to give too many negatives to town. If millers both claim, rolecop naturally uses his shot to check the survivor, doesn't have a shot left to get a false guilty on the encryptor.

[Persivul]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

That's right, forgot about that part.

[Persivul]

Fakeclaiming Rolecop makes no sense for scum. Any townies actually considering that should be embarrassed.

[Persivul]

Claiming makes no sense, and confirming mavs as miller really makes no sense. But whatever. You're the main pusher. If I die, mavs is confirmed, and you die tomorrow.

[Persivul]

No.

Claiming means if mavs is town, you bought his trust.

Why did I need mavs trust?

You've not confirmed mavs unless you flip town,

Of course. I've said as much, multiple times. Why are you pretending otherwise?

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

What are your thoughts in the three people who weren't on Drew's wagon? Do you believe scum would all be on Drew's wagon? How many do you think are on there?

You and Luca scum, Tanner town. This is also clear from my posting. Why do you pretend like I don't have positions on these people?
Regarding numbers, scum like to be OFF wagons when possible, and with the miller CC, it was pretty easy for them to stay off.

What about those who are being quiet? Have you any views on those slots?
What about Tanner? He's had very little in the way of sideways glances, let alone anything else, do you have a read on him?

Did you miss my reads list BOTH times that I posted it?

[Persivul]

Prana progression on Panda:

397 - Suggesting Drew has "flail[ed] like a fish" is really bad.
721 - Panda #372 Is bad, I comment on it in #397 below, it still stands....Prana #397 I still stand by. Red Panda's #372 is really bad there....

So, Panda is really bad, bad, and really bad, but then:
728 - Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum, why in the blue hell should I vote Panda "now" over someone who is my top scum read?

But just 4 posts and 29 minutes later:
736 - So... Scum team is leaning in the grouping of:
Persivul
Knightmare
Panda
Una

So:
- Prana's posts on Panda are all negative - "really bad."
- But, when I note that he's starting a vanity wagon near end of phase, he now says he doesn't see Panda as scum.
- But, 29 minutes later, he DOES see Panda as scum...but doesn't vote there.

This is classic positioning by scum to try to fit in with the group, but not be on the lynch in the VCs.

[Persivul]

But you, as scum, would want to latch onto mavs, and ride into the sunset so if he WAS the lynch today... you could buy town cred, and if he wasn't, but he dies later... you have town cred.

You think I get town cred from a mavs flip.

Persivul 60 towny

Eve made one mention of me, saying that I'm towny. Nothing for me to fear there.

From my POV, mavs MUST die just as much as Eve. There's no way I could have turned on him later. I know they both have to go before LYLO.

Both of them were town reading me.

You say I get town cred from a mavs flip.

Yet, Eve was killed instead of mavs.

[Persivul]

If Drew flips Miller, there will still be TWO miller claims, the fact one has been lynched does not change that, and it drastically changes the dynamic, as we're going into this lynch assuming Drew will flip scum, based solely off the "Why would scum CC just to die day 2?" situation.

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow.

I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

This is Prana on D1 setting up mavs for a D2 lynch, which of course didn't happen because of my rolecop result. Same as he was setting me up yesterday for a lynch today.

[Persivul]

OK, guess I don't need much else in terms of this "reaction test". (see? this time I won't drag it any longer. You all have scarred me permanently.)
We definitely flip Persivul today now that he has claimed a 1-shot modifier.

Why? It fits very well with two millers.

His flip either confirms mavsfan, or finally gives us a red flip.

It confirms mavsfan, who is promptly killed tonight.

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

Tanner? Seems to me we've been pretty comfortable with each other most of the game. Why Tanner?

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

Apologies for the length of this, but what mavs said earlier was right, I've done not too much scum hunting, and too much discussion about game set up (which in itself isn't bad, but by itself, helps nobody).

So this is where I'm at on my re-read:

Una #26... Still not a fan of. Jumps in, after something he could mention has happened (Tanner taking Persivul to L-2), but ignores it to call me scum and vote for Luca. He never mentions this again.

Una #61 Suggests to not have Wake vote anywhere (I'll admit I considered the idea right after)

Tanner #67 No real comment towards why a Drew vote was good, just did so. Just piggybacked on with Persivul. Extremely unhappy looking back at that.

Persivul #68 Is very much against Wake not voting due to how tough it would be to lynch scum. I mention this as it could be argued he had to make sure he didn't come off shifty by simply ignoring it if people know he normally would do it (I'm not checking other games for that info either). But, right there, it feels more town to want all the town to be able to lynch as it's harder to lynch scum if one town we know won't be on the wagon. Scum are likely to want the least town pushing for them as possible.

Persivul #92 actually feels like town giving people a heads up about the time limit. Would have been easy to just ignore it as scum.

Tanner #101 is bad, very bad. Just randomly votes Knightmare for no reason I can see.

Una #125 suggesting "we are ready for the lynch now" still rubs me up the wrong way. Less talking is good for scum, and bad for town.

farside #126 Says she found a game where two people claimed Miller, and both were town. I'm afraid she was wrong, looking at it, TwoInAMillion and MortFeld both claimed Miller. The game ended in a town win with TIAM's lynch, so he could not have been town. So still no evidence of two millers in a normal.

GB #144 Bought the double miller thing very fast.

Una #165 states he had a "reason" for not voting Drew... despite in #125 saying we are ready for the lynch. My top read is currently Una at this point as it feels like he knows Drew will turn green, and wants to avoid it.

Una #167 votes Tanner seemingly at random.

Tanner #175 Buddies George, an he did so earlier in the game too. (As stated in Drew #177)

Tanner #181 talks only about if Drew were scum, it means George is likely to be town due to a poor defense of him, while Knightmare is likely to be scum due to the "turbobus". Drew however flipped town... ScumGeorge would buy the double miller thing faster than others if he knew both were town, while Knightmare could be town or scum with the fast voting.

Knightmare #195 pulled up my #143, well after doing other responses from before, and after, that post, and only did so because Riabi did so in #192

Persivul #241 is bad. Pushing for quick lynching of Drew, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot if we have one, which... we have a perfect vig shot in the other miller after Drew flipped green. I'd rather we fixed the miller situation over not shooting. I see no town motivation for this.

farside #248 calls Persivul scum, I'm not entirely certain I see where she's coming from based on the post she shared. I do have a similar feeling from the above (which contradicts my earlier thought from #68 and #92)

This is up to the end of page 10. I'm going to have to call it quits there for the full page reading (I plan to pick it up tomorrow).

Biggest scum reads in no real order right now (as there's plenty still to read):
Una - #165, I feel he knew Drew would flip green.
Persivul - Pushing for a quick lynch, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot the claimed miller? Erm...
Tanner - Buddying George, only talks about scum Drew, never considered Town Drew while discussing why he was ignoring George buying the two miller thing.
GB - Bought the two miller claim way too fast.

He made the same kind of catch-up post in his last scum game as well:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 8#p8759318

[Persivul]

and if he IS a miller, and he flipped, then you could claim town points.

Not at all. I saw no reason to doubt him. Scum gain nothing by faking a CC there, as millers tend to get lynched anyway. Indeed, there were people on D1 saying that even if Drew flips miller, mavs would need to die D2. I prevented that.

False, when you claimed, people were voting, but not at mavs, there was zero danger at him being lynched "just because". You prevented nothing, and you know it.

I already showed that some people - YOU - were setting him up for a D2 lynch:

If Drew flips Miller, there will still be TWO miller claims, the fact one has been lynched does not change that, and it drastically changes the dynamic, as we're going into this lynch assuming Drew will flip scum, based solely off the "Why would scum CC just to die day 2?" situation.

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow.

I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

This is Prana on D1 setting up mavs for a D2 lynch, which of course didn't happen because of my rolecop result. Same as he was setting me up yesterday for a lynch today.

This shows that you don't even remember your own positions, which is more likely to come from scum than from town. It also shows that your agenda is to lynch me, not to sort me. If you were really trying to sort me, you would have accepted this and opened discussion, rather than making a knee-jerk denial.

It's also telling that you didn't respond to 814. Surely you read two more posts and saw it. Again, if you were trying to sort me, you might have said something like

I forgot about that, you're right, you did act to prevent a mislynch

. Instead you ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

[Persivul]

Why did you not claim 1 shot yesterday when it would have been beneficial?

Why aren't you reading? I already explained that. Misrepping me like this shows that you have an agenda. You're not trying to sort me.

I read what you said, it makes no sense from town.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from town. I'm now effectively a VT. If scum had an obvious scum role and thought I had more shots, they might have killed me, which:
- creates another conftown in mavs
- gives another night to town PRs

It would have made zero town sense for me to claim 1X yesterday.

BTW, why would it be difficult for a scum rolecop to have to provide results? How would that catch me up?

[Persivul]

Why did you not scum hunt at all thus far?

Another misrep, repeated many times. Again, just because I don't post walls like you doesn't mean I don't scum hunt. Plus, again, you didn't do jack until you saw how D1 went, then you started the wall posts on D2.

Why are you not pushing people for answers, and instead just coasting by every single day by posting literally nothing?

Please explain this from 728: "Based on what I've read so far, I do not see Panda as scum"
I asked you about it in 730.
You dodged an answer in 732.
I pushed for an answer in 735.
You dodged again in 736.

So, please:
- answer the original question.
- explain why you charge me with not pushing people for answers, when I clearly have.

I was looking at all posts, and was doing a catch up. A couple of bad posts at that time were not scummy enough to warrant a scum read.

A half hour later you had the scum read on Panda, yet you didn't change your vote or declare intent. You wanted to be OFF that wagon.

I push you for not asking for answers because pretty much every post in your ISO is fluff.

Except for the posts where I was actually pushing you for answers, and you dodged.

[Persivul]

Right... so...

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Knightmare and Persivul are both still super scummy, and I want a Persivul lynch ideally, but am also willing to hold off for a cop to check him if we have one, and to see if he dies at night if we don't.

VOTE: Knightmare491

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

1. If I'm scum, I'm happy that you're not pushing me. I don't poke you. Yet in the next post, I vote you. That's not a scum move.

2. Why were you willing to wait for a cop to check me?

[Persivul]

Tanner, where are you on Prana? For as much scummy shit that I'm seeing, I've also seen a couple things townie, e.g. his progression on you.

[Persivul]

Tanner, where are you on Prana? For as much scummy shit that I'm seeing, I've also seen a couple things townie, e.g. his progression on you.

He's in my "possible scumpool", but I haven't gone through his slot again yet. I need a bit of time to digest his wallposts (I'll admit that I was more skimming over some of them rather than reading), plus VCA has never been my strong suit, and I want to look at that post (799) further - I don't understand some parts of it, such as him calling Drew "the easiest lynch ever" (when it clearly wasn't the case) and being 100% sure there's scum in Tanner/popo yet never expressing willingness to vote either today.

Could you give me a tl;dr on why his progression on me strikes you as townie? I'm not sure I've seen much about me other than him questioning you and me and the "scum in Tanner/popo" point.

648 - All comments on you are negative, you're in his scum reads
721 - Tanner #411 Same as Luca actually, I did an ISO of him and it feels like a lot of questions are asked, wanting to get actual thoughts and responses. Feels town to me.

So, progression isn't the right word. He did a 180 on you. But, that seems townie in this instance. He didn't go into it in depth in order to buddy you, just moved you to a town read. I've done similar as town in the past.

[Persivul]

Now that I've typed it out and thought about it, it doesn't seem very compelling.

[Persivul]

Well done... that is literally meaningless. Or is "guy that was busy and fell behind on the game" a scum tell now?

I looked for the same in town games and didn't see it. If I missed it, let me know. That would be helpful.

No, it shows that you are trying to claim something that never happened.

mavs was NOT going to be lynched day 2, everyone else was looking a mavs for day 2 (and yes, he's still not cleared, but then... nobody is at this stage). You came in and went "mavs is a miller, I say he is, oh look I'm very town by this, oh look at me", when a town way to play there is to stay quiet unless you are one shot... but then you would want to draw the fire from scum, so you would be deep into scum hunting... in fact... your rolecop claim and your actions DO NOT line up.

No, it actually happened. I already quoted you once. I don't know why you would deny something that's right there. Again:

If Drew does, indeed, flip town, we will obviously need to consider other possibilities, and a huge one will obviously be "do we believe there to be two millers?" And... we're lynching Drew off the back of the idea there's unlikely to be two Millers... so what actually changes if he flips town? Are you suggesting everyone should just accept there's "obviously two millers"? Because it would be your word against that then.

I highly doubt there's two millers, so if Drew flips town, I'm more than happy to come after you tomorrow. I will still be looking elsewhere to see what happened, and what interactions happened and where, but to ignore how unlikely two millers would be, would be extremely poor.

Tanner noticed it too. 593 - Prana, you almost seem hellbent on making Persi/mavs a viable mislynch. What's up?

You did not claim you were 1 shot yesterday because you claim you didn't want the scum to look elsewhere... which would be a good point, except you announced today that you are 1 shot, at a time there are ZERO confirmed town left, meaning tonight you would be the guaranteed kill from scum if you were actually a rolecop.

Why would I be the guaranteed kill? You keep saying this even though I've debunked it.

Oh, but you said you were 1 shot so as to stop the doc wasting their protect on you...

Please quote me or retract.

That play, that act of doing that shite, is scum benefitting only. Not one part of what you have done can be seen to benefit town.

"mavs is a miller" great... we have YOUR word for that only, nobody else's,

We also have logic - scum don't CC, as it results in their own death the next day. The only way this is a point is if you're saying that mavs is scum too and this is all an unnecessary gambit.

and if mavs is indeed a miller... well scum know that as fact too, because town don't need to lie about their role like that, and definitely wouldn't to get Drew lynched. So the only thing gained from it is "maybe he is, maybe he isn't". Now... if you flip green we may get info about mavs, but that's the one and only time we would. And that is a huge if, because nothing you have done thus far is town. Nothing.

You have repeatedly lied

.

Please quote me or retract. I never claimed to be unrestricted.

Yes, it makes perfect sense from town. I'm now effectively a VT. If scum had an obvious scum role and thought I had more shots, they might have killed me, which:
- creates another conftown in mavs
- gives another night to town PRs

It would have made zero town sense for me to claim 1X yesterday.

BTW, why would it be difficult for a scum rolecop to have to provide results? How would that catch me up?

As I said above, you allowed the IC to be killed last night by having any potential doc protect you,

If we have a doc, nothing prevented them form protecting the IC. Their target, along with scum's, is all wifom. Plus as I've shown, if I were scum, mavs would have been a better kill.

now there's no other PR role, you can comfortably argue you haven't been killed because they're PR hunting. You are scummy as all hell.

I've always been able to explain not being killed. Id scum don't have an obviously scummy role, a rolecop is no danger to them. I've said this before, yet you ignore it.

A scum would struggle to provide results because you need to provide results,

That's no problem. You said you believed I'm a rolecop. If I weren't restricted, I'd just give results.

and you don't want to be announcing where you will shoot each night. So if you target Player A and it turns out they are a cop... well you need to announce someone different so a doc doesn't protect them tonight, because scum want the cop dead. Thus you'd have to lie. You cannot pick town to lie about, you might be wrong. So you need to pick scum and call them Vanilla.

LOL - like people would expect me to announce targets and out PRs to the scum. You don't out a cop when you don't even know if there's a doc. That makes no sense at all. A rolecop would only announce scummy results, and would save all others until massclaim.

Also, scum wouldn't have checked mavs N1, they'd have checked elsewhere and hoped to hit a PR, while just claiming they checked mavs N1, to try and buddy him. If mavs is scum, you've created a plausible lie as long as he survives, because even if you die, mavs could claim you already knew his role.

Do you think we're both scum?

Also, a 1 shot rolecop to "confirm" one of the millers.... is not a logical thing either, if it is somehow correct, all you do is trade 1 for 1. That does not lean towards town, it makes the rolecop inherently anti-town at this stage.

How exactly is the rolecop anti-town for preventing the lynch of a miller?

You're happy I'm not pushing you? Did you just look at that post and go "oh, he's voting Knightmare, that helps my case" while ignoring the words used where I clearly say I want you lynched over Knightmare?

Of course I'm happy. I live today and kill you tonight, now that the IC is gone.

As for 2... I want you lynched, I'll accept a cop checking you overnight over trying to force a lynch when people were clearly happier with a Panda one and we were late in the day.

Anyway, this is the last of this garbage back and forth, because this shit is how scum hide themselves, get into a back and forth and make town hate reading it, so they brush it all off. So this is my last direct response about this to you Persivul. Apologies to town for the wall o'text.

LOL - walls were fine when I didn't have time to respond. Now that I'm fighting back they're a distraction to town.

[Persivul]

being 100% sure there's scum in Tanner/popo yet never expressing willingness to vote either today.

At this moment in time, I'm close to 100% certain Persivul is scum. That is who I want lynched today. I've given plenty of reasons, please read them.

You or Popo I'm happy to lynch, but I need to read over both of your ISOs for it. I like your post about Popo, but want to read for myself later when I get a chance.

Whoa, when did you go back to scum reading Tanner? I need to continue on your ISO.

[Persivul]

OK, Tanner didn't fight my claim, and he is suspicious of you, so he's a scumread now. Got it.

[Persivul]

3. GeorgeBailey

mod we need a prod on this.

[Persivul]

Honestly wild idea, both of them are town.

That crossed my mind, and is why I asked Tanner about Prana. But two things have me concerned:
- he's refusing to budge an inch on me. When I explain an action - explanations that in some cases have also been offered or accepted by other players - he never says

yeah, that's reasonable, but I still think overall you're scum

. He knee jerk opposes anything I say. So, it feels like an agenda rather than sorting.
- His aggression seems unusual for scum, but reading his ISO in scum games, no, for him it's not unusual.

[Persivul]

I think we should mass claim today, if we do not lynch maf today, then we'll be in lylo and mass claim is useless after that. Thoughts?

There's one person in particular that I gave a pass on because, from a previous post, I thought they might be a PR. But so far, they haven't given anything. So I'm kind of interested in that. If I end up as the lynch today, make sure I have time to go into that.

[Persivul]

Persi, here are some blunt statements, stop talking bollocks:

1 - I did it ONCE in the past. It's not a scum tell, it's a "hey, he's busy and had to catch up" tell. Seriously. You are blatantly trying to twist it, and it's obvious.

Yes, you did it in the past. I never claimed it's a scum tell, but it's one piece of the puzzle.

2 - If you believe ME, BY MYSELF would be getting a lynch on mavs, when people started day 2 and went fucking ELSEWHERE you are an idiot. I do not believe you to be an idiot, therefore you are misrepresenting the facts for day 2. mavs was not at risk of being lynched, and you know it.

It wasn't just you. For example:

I think any and all Miller-claims, unless cleared by a rolecop, ought to be lynched/vigged before it might be "too late".
Miller often implies Cop, and therefore we do not want our Cop to have to deal with the WIFOM.
Towny Millers claim at the start, to be unselfish and give the team an opportunity to get rid of them before it's too late. (and to make sure the potential cop doesn't out themself with a false guilty)

So unless I have a conf. on mavs tomorrow, I think I'm going to vote there at the end of the day 2.

Plus he's a good enough player - we will get a lot of good content from him before he's gone anyway.

3 - You were the ONLY announced PR role,

and could expose scum

. (I'm saying it as if he were town, of course) Scum would want you dead. Yes, you were a night kill target. Night 2, the scum could kill the IC and you could argue a doc might protect you, day 3 and suddenly, when we would actively want scum to target you (to get conf!town on mavs, and remove any uncertainty) you give a very easy way for them to not target you, you have literally told scum to shoot elsewhere.

Why do you keep saying this? I keep pointing out over and over that, unless scum have a role such as strongman, a rolecop isn't a danger to them. You keep attempting to gaslight by repeating the claim without addressing the rebuttal. I'm not going to let you do that. I knew when you said you were done with me it was bullshit.

4 - As for the doctor thing, fair enough mavs mentioned it... but it doesn't stop everything else on why your announcement day 2 and 3 have been 100% scummy.

What's scummy about telling the truth?

5 - except mavs was not the next day lynch, as is evidences by anyone reading the start of the day effing 2. No, you get ZERO credit for mavs not being lynched, ZERO. Unless somehow you both think I'm the only person that can push a lynch and unless I agree with it, it doesn't go ahead... which would be stupid. So anyone thinking mavs was the lynch is reading the wrong game. Read day 2 start, now.

See above. You weren't the only person saying that. Town generally doesn't let a miller claim live to lylo.

6 - No retracting. You have lied. Scum do that, they lie.

Quote me. You're long on ambiguous generalizations, short on support.

7 - WIFOM in the form of "mavs would be the better kill", that depends. Eve joined, and is a slot you know everyone would listen to as they are confirmed town, so yes, the scum would target Eve over mavs.

Again - Eve was town leaning on me, and a mavs flip doesn't conftown me, but it helps to some extent. There's no reason for me to kill Eve over mavs.

8 - No clue if you and mavs are both scum. I'm certain you are.

570 - Either it's some weird day talk plan and mavs/Persivul agreed to work it like that together, and they're both scum, or they are both town.

9 - How exactly is the rolecop town for announcing the scum can shoot elsewhere from now on and give an excuse for not being NK'd?

I didn't say that announcing it was towny - I said it isn't scummy. It's neutral. Restrictions are common, and it's common for people not to immediately give them.

Better question... Why did you announce you're a one shot today? I want a post with NOTHING else in it but this answer.

I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

10 - Walls are never fine, but sometimes a necessary. Also if you are seriously telling me you don't understand the difference between "wall of actual information" and "many many walls of back and forth that doesn't move anything forward because neither of us talking at each other benefits the town" I'm very sorry for you... but yu do know the difference, that's why you want to gaslight others by making them believe they're the same. THIS IN ITSELF IS SCUMMY BEHAVIOR

If it doesn't benefit town, why are you doing it? Especially considering that you pledged not to earlier?

11 - "Of course I'm happy. I live today and kill you tonight, now that the IC is gone." - Persivul #830 ladies and gentlemen.

Yep. If I were scum I wouldn't have voted you right after you said I could wait for another day. Not sure what your point is, or if you even have one.

From now on, refrain from just doing a back and forth please.

It takes two to do a back and forth. Why don't you just live up to your pledge and stop it on your side? As for me - no, I'm not letting you dictate the types of post I can make. Again, walls were all fine and good when you were making them and I wasn't keeping up. Now that I'm exposing the flaws in your arguments, you don't like them. Go figure.

[Persivul]

Unless you think I'm the only person who matters in a lynch... then you cannot call BS on it.

I've already shown that you and Una would have been on mavs D2 without my result. Tanner also:

Look at who died in the Night, reread Day 1, and I guess look to resolve mavs one way or another?

Because why? mavs otherwise would've been a free mislynch.

Lynching mavs, even with a green drew flip, was indeed a serious thing. You're pretending it wasn't, but it was.

Town Persivul would have kept quiet and help off at least until later in the day to say it.

I was going camping with no connectivity for two days. While a lynch in that time wasn't probable, it was possible. I literally pulled over to check the thread and phone post at the last spot with a connection in order to protect mavs. Plus, even if he wouldn't have been lynched, there would have been a lot of needless discussion on it before I got back.

[Persivul]

Well, I came into today ready to instant vote Mavs, but Persivul confirms him.

Here's a fourth. WTF prana, you're proving that you haven't really been reading the thread. You just posted a couple walls with comments on selected posts to look townie.

[Persivul]

Here's another. How did you miss all this?

For the same reason that the miller needs to die if only one person claims miller? Because it's too easy/convenient of a claim otherwise. Now, that was with the information we had on D1; Persivul's claim does seem to confirm mavs, since scum miller isn't a normal role, and I can't think of a reason that a scum!persivul would lie about mavs' claim.

[Persivul]

I'm ignoring everything Persivul is directing at me as of now, because it does not benefit town.

I showed that five people (including yourself) were lined up to lynch mavs D2, and so my result saved him. Since that hurts scum, it shows that I'm likely town.

That benefits town.

[Persivul]

George is probably scum. He hasn't posted yet today, but he's been on yesterday and today.

[Persivul]

@Persivul: there were certain players (including BUT NOT limited to just off the top of my head but there might be more: George Bailey & UnaBombaH) that seemed to believe a double miller set up. You have now pointed out that they expressed interest in my lynching after Drew flipped green. That would mean that they believed a double miller set up and resisted a Drew lynch but have wanted me lynched implying I fake CC’ed him vs sticking to the two miller setup. Any thoughts on this?

As noted, at least 5 people were thinking that way. So, some of them had to be town. Some explained that you don't let a single miller go to lylo, so you wouldn't let a second one do so, which seems reasonable. I don'tr know how you tell the difference between towns with that thinking, and scum being opportunistic.

[Persivul]

georgebailey is scum lmfao

Why?

If you had to move to prana or popo, which would be your first choice?

[Persivul]

Okay, can we lynch popo now?

Prana and popo are both in my scum pool. Those are the leading wagons and the game has stalled, so good chance they're both scum.

VOTE: popopopopo

L-1

[Persivul]

Persi, how accurate is 644 right now?

Here's where I am:

Town - mavs, tanner
Lean Town - Knightmare
Scummy side of null - Unabomber, Riabi
Scum - George, popo, prana

I was more confident in that scum team a couple days ago, but Una and Riabi going quiet has me concerned.

You?

[Persivul]

These three have all managed to put up a lot of words without really saying much at all. Not the Una I'm used to.

I'm biding my time.
I actually have a good feeling about this game.

Scum would have absolutely no reason to bus here.
They have a solid foundation for a game full on 50/50 slots and weird claims.
Only thing that could confirm Persivul now is another roleclaim, and for all we know, even that could be scum fakeclaiming.

Scum wants to go into a LyLo where we are forced to choose a lynch between slots like Riabi (hasn't been around much at all), and a claimed Rolecop.
I'd prefer if we try to resolve two slots at once today.

There's another angle to this all, but I do not want to say it yet, as it might affect our remaining PR. (I think I have a good hunch)

I've been giving Una a pass based on these posts. I see them as hints that he's a PR. But, we haven't received any results, and he's gone quiet.

@mavs: I generally scum read individually. I'm not great with groupings. How do things look if you replace George with Una?

[Persivul]

Yeah, it made sense to give him some time, especially with no shortage of scummier candidates. But if popo flips red and mavs is correct (I'll review his argument later) that that rules out George, then I think we need to consider Una. I'll do some meta on him when I have time.

[Persivul]

sorry the last few days have been super busy for me speedrun week in wow classic horde tryna grief my guild OD but i will be ablea to give this game myt full attention at the weekend (i probably shoulda gone v/la last few days didnt realize how crazy shit would get)

Hopefully this game won't be an issue for you much longer. One more vote.

[Persivul]

i tracked persivul last night, he visited eve

Scum claim. I went nowhere last night. I can't.

[Persivul]

wait, then Persivul isn't 1-shot?

This rang the alarm bells in my head.
Ofc he isn't why did you ask this dumb question.

Ofc I'm not? Why is that?

[Persivul]

..and I'm afraid this seems like you are digging at my feet - just in case I need to be mislynched tomorrow.
If you are town here, you should realize where your own claim puts you in the grand scheme of things.
You'd also be at least a little worried of being NK'd, no? Yet you seem quite confident that you will wake up to D4..

That makes no sense. Yes, I could be NK'd. That's why I wasn't comfortable waiting until tomorrow to bring it up.

[Persivul]

Yeah, it made sense to give him some time, especially with no shortage of scummier candidates. But if popo flips red and mavs is correct (I'll review his argument later) that that rules out George, then I think we need to consider Una. I'll do some meta on him when I have time.

..and I'm afraid this seems like you are digging at my feet - just in case I need to be mislynched tomorrow.
If you are town here, you should realize where your own claim puts you in the grand scheme of things.

You'd also be at least a little worried of being NK'd, no?

Yet you seem quite confident that you will wake up to D4..

And since we are outing suspicions about PRs - I thought Persivul might've actually been a 2-shot / odd-night RoleCop at the start of the day.
With that 1-shot claim they have effectively made it so that we can't expect any more results from them, and

they are also "protected" from a nightkill

simply because their result means nothing unless they die.
They claim to have confirmed a role that does nothing, and could potentially be just a scum hiding under a role that can't be confirmed.
Town!RoleCop would've said that to make sure they get a result tonight, but somehow I do not see that in their gameplay right now.

I'll have to do some stream of consciousness to sort this whole thing for myself.

Changing your position literally from one post to the next.

I don't like the way you've responded to this. I think town would have simply shrugged it off. Also, Tanner said he likewise spotted got the same from it. But, you don't respond at all to him - only to the guy with a wagon.

[Persivul]

THIS.
Exactly this.
Think about it folks - if Persivul were to be a scum!RoleCop, he would never check OR kill Eve here.
They already knew Eves role since it was globally revealed, and they'd want a result from Persivul.
So someone else would've done the killing anyway since Eve was the target.

Bingo

[Persivul]

it was a big time gambit from scum persivul to ride his claim and "confirmed" status from the miller check to victory.

think about it. he "checks" mavsfan to try confirm himself. says mavsfan is a miller. mavsfan is ofcourse a miller, he had claimed in thread, scum persivul knows he's telling the truth. then the next day persi claims 1 shot so he doesn't have to check anyone and tell us what their role is.

because he can't find out anyone else's role because he's not a rolecop

it makes sense that he made the kill. he fake claimed outta nowhere on day 2 as a gambit play, im sure his scum buddies want little to do with him and were like "you've made this fake claim you're stuck with it, theres a million ways you could be caught in a lie now, make the kill, we need to stay below the radar." at least thats what i'd do in this situation.


and again, i tracked persivul to the dead IC. i can't think of an explanation other than the most obvious one. he is scum and killed her.

If your claim is true, then you have a hared guilty on me.

With a hard guilty on me, surely you've been watching me to see who I was and wasn't pushing.

So...how did you get to L-1 without noticing?

Who do you have as the scum team?

[Persivul]

So, uhh... That happened.

UNVOTE:

I don't think I have anything to add until we hear from Persi. Though I'm still thinking about my "Persi/mavs must be of the same alignment" claim. We'll see I guess.

It's a hail mary from scum. popo's play makes no sense today with a guilty in hand. I'm surprised it's been taken seriously at all.

Some good may come out of it. MAVS - George quickly and without question accepted the popo claim. If I'm town, are you still convinced they can't be scum together?

[Persivul]

But he changed it to one shot. Usually one shot is paired with other roles.

Since when?

[Persivul]

VOTE: Persivul

Why did you hop on this so easily?

[Persivul]

Because you are a claimed PR - he is not.
My reasoning for why I have handled Tanner the way I have comes alive tomorrow if we are both still alive.

More tomorrow? It's getting old. If you have something to say, just say it. As you note, there's no guarantee you're still alive to say it tomorrow.

[Persivul]

sorry the last few days have been super busy for me speedrun week in wow classic horde tryna grief my guild OD but i will be ablea to give this game myt full attention at the weekend (i probably shoulda gone v/la last few days didnt realize how crazy shit would get)

Does this post come from someone with a guilty in hand?

[Persivul]

...Why do you people insist on making this game more complicated than it really is?

farside was shot. She suspected Panda/Luca/Persi. Both Panda's and Luca's slots are horrible (I'd argue Panda's more so than Luca, but ya know). We swing there. Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum,

it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

I'm hesitant on Luca/Panda and I don't think she was killed for her scum reads. She seemed like a really obvTown player that would have easily been taken to LyLo. I think Scum thought she was an easy target to take out. But NKA is tricky because you have to know the mind behind the kills too. Some people take out Strong Townies they don't want to compete with late game, some take out people shit tunneling them.

^George protects Luca/popo by saying that farside wasn't killed for her scum reads.

VOTE: popo

The fact that Farside was NK'd n1 over an IC has to be a tell.

The only alive players from her scumreads are Persi and Luca/popo.

^popo lynch looks inevitable. George wants to bus but has no progression at all (this is his first mention of popo). Suddenly, farside was killed for her scum reads.

[Persivul]

Are you sure it was inevitable? popo had only 2 votes on him at the time.

Yeah I was just looking at that myself. Here's the context:

popo (2) - Tanner, mavs
prana (2) - pers, knightmare
pers (2) - prana, popo
With george not voting.

VOTE: 852 I pressure George - George is probably scum. He hasn't posted yet today, but he's been on yesterday and today.

He votes in his next post. So, no, inevitable was the wrong word. Important thing though is to look at the (lack of) progression in all of his votes. mavs is hanging too much on that one post. This guy is scum.

[Persivul]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

NICE - I was getting to that as well.

[Persivul]

They have to be scum together. Otherwise, popo would have chosen someone who's now dead for the N1 result.

[Persivul]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

[Persivul]

@Persi, perhaps. You'd put him as the third with Prana, or?

Yes.

[Persivul]

Oh, and note that I'm not

putting

him on. Those three have been my scum team for some time. See 879. Now this desperate play by popo to get rid of me, and George jumping right on? I mean I'd almost flip myself at this point just to prove the point and get them all lynched.

[Persivul]

Consider the tracker possibilities if you like, but they don't really matter. Today's lynch is me or popo, either way popo is caught scum. George's popo vote with contradictory reasoning, followed by the instant flip to me makes him scum. So even if I'm lynched it comes down to a 2:1 lylo, which I don't think scum win.

[Persivul]

If we lynch popopopo today, we basically force scum to kill Persivul/mavs, and we still have one rather-easy-to-believe townslot left. (as in - believe Persivul = scum-popopopo).

I hadn't thought of that. Unless you think me/popo is scum theater, then lynching popo today conftowns me, which in turn conftowns mavs.

[Persivul]

popo really should have just taken the noose. If so I wouldn't have ISO'd George. That contradiction on the farside kill is pretty damning.

[Persivul]

If we lynch popopopo today, we basically force scum to kill Persivul/mavs, and we still have one rather-easy-to-believe townslot left. (as in - believe Persivul = scum-popopopo).

I hadn't thought of that.

Unless you think me/popo is scum theater

, then lynching popo today conftowns me, which in turn conftowns mavs.

My thoughts are in bold. Can't believe you brought it up yourself in a moment like this..

Why wouldn't I bring it up? I know it isn't true.

[Persivul]

I think? we lynch popo today? Even if popo is Town, we wouldn't be able to get any more results from him since he'd get shot anyway. So either he flips scum, which is great, or we lynch Persi>mavs (because I still believe they have to be the same alignment).

pedit: I don't think that's such an elaborate thought, though... what do you mean by saving the situation?

Not a chance. If I were doctor I’d 100% protect Popopopo here (if Persivul flips scum). Persivul’s not a power role anymore. Picking a lynch between the two, town has more to lose by lynching a tracker than lynching a 1x Rolecop who already used their ability.

So...ignore all the evidence which got the claimant to L-1 in the first place, because they made an eleventh-hour claim which fits a scum game plan perfectly?

I think we win anyway if I'm lynched, but this is really asinine.

Assuming I'm town and popo's scum, what do you think about my points on George?

[Persivul]

I honestly have NO IDEA about George atm. I think he makes more sense as scum if you flip scum adhering to the Turbobus.

What Turbobus? As Tanner pointed out and I confirmed:
- George was not posting. I pressured him on that. So, he felt the need to come in and vote.
- When he came in, there were three 2-person wagons. If he's scum with popo and prana, then he had these choices:
--vote popo
--vote prana
--join both popo and prana on me, knowing I'd flip green
--start a new vanity wagon

None of those are great choices for him, but neither prana nor popo would have been a turbobus form his POV at that point.

I’m telling you, I think your post about the potential of Popopop being a scum tracker is absolutely insane. For you to believe that,

I don't

believe

it, but it was only fair to point out that my previous post making an absolute connection between scum!popo and scum!george wasn't actually absolute.

What I’d picture you’d be saying is that Popopopopo is a liar who isn’t a tracker of any kind cause if they were and tracked me, they would see I didn’t go anywhere.

I did say he was lying, unequivocally, in my first post after popo's claim. 936 But no matter how unlikely, I can only say his reported result was fake. Technically he could be a scum tracker. Real PRs can give fake results.

[Persivul]

You'd think we would have learned from the vig discussion that the mere mention of a role doesn't mean that role's in the game.

[Persivul]

Agreed, but it was bugging me.

That came up after your post but it was a general comment, not at you specifically.

[Persivul]

Town must have some investigative power

I did claim rolecop you know.

and I'm not gonna lynch an un CCed tracker.

But you will lynch a claimed rolecop, who was only CC'd when the counter claim had gotten to L-1?

[Persivul]

Dude like half of those setups have masons, those are like unlynchable roles, town RBs/Jaillkeepers are like weak investigative roles.

Dude, I claimed an investigative role, and saved mavs by doing so.

Popo is claiming an investigative role, at L-1, in order to save his skin.

Either way we have an investigative role.

[Persivul]

I don’t think there is a jailer either. What George is saying is that he didn’t go anywhere N1 corroborating Popopo’s claim about him. For scum!Popopopo to be fake claiming tracker with a N1 result that is accurate and not going to be called out is if they used a scum PR to prevent him from visiting anyone. Then Popopopo could lie about being tracked with an accurate result on George. That probably didn’t happen. What happened is George didn’t go anywhere N1 and Popopopo is tracker telling the truth aka Persivul is scum OR George is lying and him and Popopopopo are scum together corroborating each other’s claims.

I still don’t think George and Popopopo are scum together. I can’t see scum!George posting 857 about scum!Popopopo unless it’s one helluva smoke screen.

I think scum!George works only with scum!Persivul as trying to turbobus Persivul after Popopopo’s claim. But this still doesn’t work cause of how hard Persivul is pushing George. Scum!Persivul would clear Popopopopo, George, and Prana imo.

Town Persivul would mean scum!Popopopo and likely scum Prana. George’s push and voting of BOTH seems like townie pushing whatever conviction they currently have (or he’s playing scum like I play town....)

Vote: Persivul

You're a fucking idiot.

[Persivul]

IT WAS A FUCKING ELEVENTH HOUR SAVE-MY-ASS HAIL MARY. HOW ARE YOU FUCKING IDIOTS FALLING FOR THIS?

And now with this shit about Tanner I'm not even sure we'll win when I flip.

I guess I'll do like the scum team and just disappear for awhile. Then maybe you guys will talk yourselves into voting popo.

[Persivul]

mavs bussing Persi here would be a true clown fiesta though.

There are no redirects etc. in normals, and from what I've read I don't hink a normal can have a scum miller. mavs is 100% town.

pedit: what do you mean "about Tanner"?

Knightmare saying you and I are opposite alignments. If you're deep scum well played, but assuming you're town, when i flip green Knightmare won't be on board with you. At this point I still hold by my scum team and think knightmare is bad town.

[Persivul]

popo's day play today makes sense from the point of view that they are a PR who had a guilty on you so I believe them over you.

My play makes perfect sense as a 1X rolecop in a setup with two millers, so that should be a draw.

[Persivul]

The fact that farside was killed night 1 also points towards Persivul scum.

And it points to luca/popo scum, so that's a draw.

[Persivul]

Scum reads: red panda, luca,

knight

/persivul.

Good catch tanner.

[Persivul]

My issue there is that Knight can apparently see me as Town being fooled by scum!you, but can't see me as Town genuinely believing Town!you, when from Town!me's PoV, there's no visible difference between the two.

Yep. With three scum in the game I'm probably going to be lynched today, so I'd like to solve this before then. In fact:
UNVOTE:

We know it's me or popo today, so there's no need for anyone to rush it.

[Persivul]

I read popo's ISO... Persi is 100% scum. There's absolutely no chance in hell that popo randomly made up that claim at the last minute. At all. All through today popo said Persi was today's lynch, and Persi was lying.

So yes, Persi is today's lynch.

Knightmare dived on that bus so fast that he must have thought it was the last one out of the station.

Tanner is either scum with Persi, as he's been solidly backing Persi from the start, or has been very much misguided. Either way, Tanner needs to properly reasses his reads, because currently they're buggered.

So your scumpool is {Pers, Knight, Tanner/???}

Can you give us some more on that last slot?

[Persivul]

@Tanner, we know that one of Persivul and popo is scum, why do you want to lynch a tracker over an essentially VT?

You lynch me today and I flip green.

HOPEFULLY when you see my 1X you'll all realize that popo's claim is mechanically impossible and lynch him.

What are you reads at that point? Who are the other two scum?

I don't mind dying if we go on to win, but mavs is stuck on popo/george being different alignments due to a single vote, and you're stuck on me/tanner being different alignments, despite him being the towniest player in the game.

[Persivul]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

Thinking this through:

1. If popo flips scum tracker, we can't make conclusions from that on George's alignment

2.

If popo flips scum but not tracker, than George is almost certainly scum

, as popo could have just claimed a result on a dead person for N1.

Is that correct?

[Persivul]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

Thinking this through:

1. If popo flips scum tracker, we can't make conclusions from that on George's alignment

2.

If popo flips scum but not tracker, than George is almost certainly scum

, as popo could have just claimed a result on a dead person for N1.

Is that correct?

Not necessarily. I think it's still possible scum had an investigative that checked George Night 1 (such as a Vanilla Cop). It's also possible They took a blind guess. I don't know how

probable

any of these are though. Maybe I'm just tunneled on my George=VI read.

Yeah actually for George to be town, SCUM need to have an investigative, but it doesn't need to be popo specifically. Bummer. A two-fer would have been nice.

[Persivul]

holy hell. It's not about actually rolecopping you or not. It's about whether Persi is scum or not. Obviously scum!him'd know you weren't lying.

Do you see my point regarding (1) and (2)? How unlikely it is? That both setup is literally designed to give scum two free mislynches AND that scum!persi decided to stop your mislynch for ??? reasons? Why are you voting Town over obvious (from your PoV) fakeclaiming scum?

I usually don't take games personally, but yeah, if mavs mislynches me after I used my shot to save him, post-game is going to be ugly.

[Persivul]

But my point is that both probably have the highest chance of getting shot in either scenario.

Why would I be the likely target if I'm telling the truth?

[Persivul]

@Persivul: again, to even entertain this idea of scum tracker Popopopo is to acknowledge they are telling the truth about George during N1 BUT LYING about you N2. Popopo has alleged you visited Eve. You claim you didn’t do anything. I don’t even know how you could believe half a tracker story but not the other. If you’re saying Popopopo is lying about your night action’s last night, you should reject the tracker theory in full as a ploy to save themselves at the 11th hour. You’re in on both which makes literally no sense

Possibilities if popo is scum tracker:

1. George is town and went nowhere. popo is telling the truth about George to get cred at least with him, but lying about me.

Why do you think it's impossible for a human to tell the truth on one thing but lie about another?

I mean, sorry, but that's just dumb, and you don't seem like a dumb person. I'd think you were scummy if not for my result.

2. George is also scum. popo tracked someone else N1, but thought that giving a result on a dead person looks somewhat suspect, so he used his buddy.

[Persivul]

If Popopopo was a scum tracker, do you believe they tracked George?

Yes - then you believe that they’re telling the truth about N1. But you also are saying they lied about N2 claiming Perisvul visited Eve when Persivul has gone on record saying that did NOT happen

No - they’re not a tracker and lied about George and Persivul.

Scum!Popopopopo is lying about Persivul regardless of their role. The only possible scenario I see is that scum tracker Popopopo (at that point Luca) tracked George but tracked someone NOT persivul N2 but is lying about their real target and instead claiming they targeted Persivul. That’s a less likely scenario than scum!Popopopo just lying about tracker altogether

You're forgetting the possible scenario in which George and popo are both scum.

[Persivul]

@Persivul: nfw scum!George votes scum!Popopopo in 857 and furthermore absolutely no chance scum!George votes scum!popopopo in 1058 and vote his scum buddy rather than just leaving it on you for the easy mislynch.

My flip conftowns you 100%.

When you're still alive in final lylo...ask yourself

why

.

[Persivul]

A 1x rolecop also doesn't fix the balance... actually worse if anything.

two millers claim, the first one is lynched, rolecop checks the second one, confirms it... town believe it, but at the expense of the rolecop who is NK'd by scum, then there's another miller and an IC to be NK'd too...

If anything, two millers waste a rolecop use, and it confirms it ONLY to him.

a 1x rolecop in this game would be a NEGATIVE to town, not a positive... and we already had multiple negatives.

Holy shit, I've seen blatant gaslighting before but this takes the cake.

Bravo sir, you have some mighty big balls!

But this does solidify my scum read on you, as I don't think even bad town could come to the conclusion that 2 millers and a rolecop is BETTER for town than 2 millers alone.

[Persivul]

2 millers and a rolecop is BETTER for town than 2 millers alone

Flip those obviously.

[Persivul]

That bit doesn't matter. In THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION the rolecop isn't beneficial to town.

I notice you've constantly tried going "lol, Prana's an idiot"... which, fuck everyone doing that.

What none of you have done is told me how saving the miller IS FUCKING BENEFICIAL AT THE EXPENSE OF THE ROLECOP.

Why do you say at the expense of the rolecop when the rolecop is alive?

Like... serious-fucking-ly.

How is "miller 1 dies, miller 2 dies" WORSE for the town than "Miller one dies, a town PR dies, miller is NK'd due to being obv town".

Scenario 1 is two mislynches. Scenario 2 can be limited to one mislynch. Town doesn't need to lynch a rolecop like they do a miller.

[Persivul]

You mean the rolecop that is currently alive because they took out the IC because any potential protective role was drawn away from it so protect the claimed power role, despite the fact it was a 1 shot, and would have been better dead N2 to confirm the miller over losing the IC?

We could find out if there's a doc, and if so, whom they protected and when, with massclaim. But you're against massclaim.

[Persivul]

Wow, now the guy who saved you and the towniest player in the game are a scum pair. You're killing me mavs. KISS - Keep it simple, stupid.

[Persivul]

mavs, if I'm scum with Persi, he never ever claims Rolecop in order to save you. I don't allow it.

If I'm scum without you I never do that. Anyone who knows my scum game knows that it's very simple. I don't go for unnecessary gambits in order to try to win scummies. I don't need town cred from a fake claim in order to win as scum.

[Persivul]

@Perisvul: You keep pushing George today. I really don’t see how George is scum unless BOTH you AND Popopopo are town. Popopopo bread crumbing a tracker result on you is undeniable. To suggest they had that fake claim ready for as a last resort is super unlikely. If you scum, I believe that would clear Prana and Popopopopo. George I believe is town too with a scum flip of either you or Popopo. That would leave UnaBombaH, Ruby Red, Knightmare and Tanner as potential scum. Knightmare/Tanner cannot be scum together. That’s where I’m at.

I know, and that's what scares me. That's why I said, and I repeat - my flip makes you IC. If you're still alive in final lylo, it's because you're stuck on a wrong read.

[Persivul]

Sorry mavs, but you're a complete fucking idiot. Just lynch me so I can go to the dead thread and say there as well what a complete fucking idiot you are. Ungrateful fucking idiot actually.

[Persivul]

If you're still alive in final lylo, it's because you're stuck on a wrong read.

[Persivul]

VOTE: popopo

[Persivul]

Fine: would you be okay with me not voting you but also not voting Popopopo and just letting you get lynched?

Absolutely not.

[Persivul]

im hesistant to give my reads so scum dont have an idea who im looking to track, but i will if people really want me to.

Yes please.

[Persivul]

@popo: well done BTW. I mean, it shouldn't have worked, and depended on town having some VIs, but as luck would have it, we do. It certainly made the day more interesting though.

[Persivul]

I think that's a really valid point. The fact that it's ungated is pretty weird. But my point is that both probably have the highest chance of getting shot in either scenario.

VOTE: popo

i dont understand this shit. how can u vote me here? you of all people should know im telling the truth??? WTF

reminder to myself in future games that george bailey is a fucking VI

Clumsy distancing.

[Persivul]

he is clearly the kind of scum player that would try something this audacious

How is this clear? Do you have some scum games of mine to show this? I'm like you - I don't make fakeclaims unless my back is up against the wall.

[Persivul]

im ok with being lynched first because persi will be lynched tomorrow

I second this.

[Persivul]

scumreads - redpanda, prana, knight (in that order)

townreads - persi, mavs, GB, Una (im tired i will try and work out a few more townreads tomorrow)

So, why did you track me, rather than prana or knight?

[Persivul]

@Persivul: answered that in 896 which is a townie post with townie intentions. Also, again, you claim you didn’t go anywhere so Popopopo having a result means he’s lying if you’re town. Are you acknowledging he tracked you? That would also be acknowledging you visited Eve which you have previously stated didn’t happen.

I was trying to catch him up - see if I got a different answer.

I'm just done. mavs, sorry, but you're really bad at this. I know I'm not helping my case in saying that, but it's true.

Just fucking lynch me. I'm out.

[Persivul]

Tanner, on the off chance that you're scum - well done.

Otherwise, it's up to you to bring this together. My flip will help a lot, but still - good luck. You'll need it.

[Persivul]

@Persivul: answered that in 896 which is a townie post with townie intentions. Also, again, you claim you didn’t go anywhere so Popopopo having a result means he’s lying if you’re town. Are you acknowledging he tracked you? That would also be acknowledging you visited Eve which you have previously stated didn’t happen.

I mean, yeah mavs, it wasn't a hypothetical, I'm now acknowledging that popo really tracked me and has a valid result.

[Persivul]

Yep. I've said multiple times on this site that town should never self vote, so I won't, but I now understand the temptation. I just want to shove my fucking flip down mav's throat and watch him choke on it.

[Persivul]

Lynch popo tomorrow (of course), then prana, then decide as you will. I think George, but that's not as strong as the other two. It's concerning that first Riabi disappeared, now Ruby.

[Persivul]

Mastina says to look back to early game, when scum haven't gotten comfortable yet. I triple ISO'd prana, luca and george. Here's their D1 interactions FWIW:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Prana

Devil be gone!

VOTE: Prana

Devil be gone!

VOTE: Luca

No U.

Also, my first game back in a while. So expect me to need to shake off some rust. (Ooh, scum preparing to return to this as defense later? Who knows?)

Any reason you switched to a bw vote after a joke vote?

To build a wagon. What's the point of RVS if no one is pressured?

I obviously don't scumread Persival right now. But I don't townread him either.

I mean... at this exact moment in time, nobody should be townreading anyone (well... bar one person, but y'know... anyone scum reading them needs a slap).

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.

What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.

Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.

I've seen people enter and just throw a random vote on without paying attention to the thread, especially that early in the game. Not worth the risk.

I'm struggling to see what town gains from that tbh. Maybe if Una could talk more about what kind of reactions he was expecting and what the lack of reaction actually means in this context, then it'd be helpful?

I'll also point out Persivul is also pushing to rush the day to completion for the sake of it, and cut off extra discussion, seemingly to stop "WIFOM" discussion... and seems to ignore the fact that it's more we can look at later.

[Persivul]

Persivul has just grabbed a handful of posts and gone "read these". No attempt at claiming anything is there at all, he's just flailing, and hoping people will get off his wagon.

No, I figure I'll be lynched today. I want that out there for tomorrow. People can then run you with other people and compare it to you with luca/george.

With your arguing that my role is negative utility, I'm certain that you're scum. So what I find fascinating is that you're being this aggressive, knowing that I flip green. Should be interesting to see what your play is tomorrow.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: All

Is that string of garbage posts from popo really what changed your mind? Maybe I am wrong on you after all.

I was thinking about my last post. What's their endgame knowing that I flip green? And it hit me - they don't want to flip me today. They want a no lynch. Between their own unvotes and apathy in ruby/una, that's not of the question. Then tomorrow is mylo with the pers/popo issue unresolved and mavs firmly in their pocket.

No lynch is not an option today. I'll vote myself if necessary. Lylo tomorrow with popo as confscum is better than mylo with the claims issue unresolved.

[Persivul]

And someone like Prana making posts that mix competing scenarios to make a case FOR one of them while discrediting the other..? It obviously makes this a mess to read, because I can't say whether they are scum narrating for an agenda, or just a townie getting too riled up.

Like I said, no lynch is ideal for scum here. If I'm flipped, that's going to be prana's defense - that popo's scum buddy wouldn't defend so hard.

The other slot that really worries me is mavs.
They managed to be the most obv.townie player to me earlier based on their posts alone, but today.. It's not just the fact they are Dead sure Pers is scum here, but the fact that they use bad logic and reasoning to reach it.

mavs is completely town, and completely wrong. Yes, that's worrisome, which is why I've repeatedly said that, as conftown after my flip, if he isn't NK'd, he has to ask himself why, and reevaluate his reads. Whether he's capable of doing that - we'll see.

[Persivul]

All that being said, I'm in a weird spot where I really don't think popopo or their "supporters" are that believable or towny at all, BUT I'm meaning towards Persivul being the more reasonable lynch here anyway.

More reasonable? Do tell. How is it more reasonable or beneficial to lynch town over scum? Lynching popo and maintaining one allowable mislynch is FAR superior.

That said, with 3 scum plus mavs, it's doubtful the other 4 of you will come together on popo, especially with ruby absent. That's why I'm playing with a focus on endgame without me here.

[Persivul]

im still down to get on knightmare but i really dont see why we dont lynch persi today.

This shows two things:
1. popo, who supposedly had a guilty on me, was OK lynching someone other than me

2. knightmare is probably town

[Persivul]

Mavs and persivul are either super confirmed PR, or literally the scumteam.

Yep.

[Persivul]

...Why do you people insist on making this game more complicated than it really is?

farside was shot. She suspected Panda/Luca/Persi. Both Panda's and Luca's slots are horrible (I'd argue Panda's more so than Luca, but ya know). We swing there. Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum,

it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

I'm hesitant on Luca/Panda and

I don't think she was killed for her scum reads

. She seemed like a really obvTown player that would have easily been taken to LyLo. I think Scum thought she was an easy target to take out. But NKA is tricky because you have to know the mind behind the kills too. Some people take out Strong Townies they don't want to compete with late game, some take out people shit tunneling them.

VOTE: popo

The fact that Farside was NK'd n1 over an IC has to be a tell.

The only alive players from her scumreads are Persi and Luca/popo

.

Just a reminder.

[Persivul]

Ruby Red has been prodded.

mod, can we get a deadline extension?

[Persivul]

That's about as insightful as your

rolecop is negative utility

observation.

It's well known that my scum team is popo, you, and george. That makes ruby town to me. But keep going - when I flip, you gonna have some splainin to do.

[Persivul]

Bit like how you, and others, tried to make out popo just "happened" to choose a role that gets you lynched instead...

but yet ignore that they did a flip on my alignment at the same time, which was clearly designed to steer people away from me

, and towards you, in the event of their flip.

You flip red now, me and popo are as good as conf-town as can be.

Oh, I'm not ignoring that at all. CLEARLY DESIGNED. Your words.

[Persivul]

Vote Count 3.3

Ruby Red

Riabi

(0)

GeorgeBailey (1)Ruby Red;

mavsfan41 (0)

popopopopopopo

Luca Blight

(2)Tanner;Persivul;

UnaBombaH (0)

PranaDevil (0)

Knightmare491 (0)

Persivul (3)PranaDevil;popopopopopopo;mavsfan41;

Tanner (0)

NoLynch(0)

Not Voting(3):UnaBombaH;Knightmare491;GeorgeBailey;

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch.
Day 3 ends in (expired on 2020-05-11 11:14:00) or when a lynch has been achieved.

Ruby Red has been prodded.

OK Ruby should be replaced now.

[Persivul]

I just PM'd mod about a replacement and a deadline. This is bad modding considering the gamestate, unless as you disclaim there's a RL crisis or something.

[Persivul]

I agree that we all want to hear from that slot. But still, I don't see where you really need to hear from that slot to make up your own mind between me and popo. All the facts are there.

[Persivul]

Can we be lynching Persivul now? I'm tired of his attempts to twist people onto his side by twisting the facts constantly.

He still has done basically nothing all game, yet wants to make out he's a town leader.

I agree that we all want to hear from that slot. But still, I don't see where you really need to hear from that slot to make up your own mind between me and popo. All the facts are there.

I get a feeling it's more "would rather not go to night without everyone" than "I require hearing from that slot right now".

Also, everyone responding to the situation is good in advance of the next day phase, it's much easier for someone to say "I knew that would be the result" after the fact, than making them comment on it before a lynch.

Like I said day one. More information is better for town, never worse.

[Persivul]

Can we be lynching Persivul now? I'm tired of his attempts to twist people onto his side by twisting the facts constantly.

He still has done basically nothing all game, yet wants to make out he's a town leader.

I agree that we all want to hear from that slot. But still, I don't see where you really need to hear from that slot to make up your own mind between me and popo. All the facts are there.

I get a feeling it's more "would rather not go to night without everyone" than "I require hearing from that slot right now".

Also, everyone responding to the situation is good in advance of the next day phase, it's much easier for someone to say "I knew that would be the result" after the fact, than making them comment on it before a lynch.

Like I said day one. More information is better for town, never worse.

[Persivul]

No clue how the duplicate post came up.

[Persivul]

The gamestate is: either a rolecop or a tracker. Read my game. Read luca/popo. Decide which one is townier. Vote.

Point being I find it troubling that with this gamestate and this little time left, George is talking setup spec. Looks like he wants to be able to pin his eventual decision on mechanics, rather than reads.

[Persivul]

2 things make sense and I cannot decide which one I should go with.

Go with the one where popo gets lynched.

[Persivul]

I don’t see how scum!George busses his partner in 857 AND ALSO votes Popopo in 1058. There’s reason enough for him to NOT vote Popopo and keep his vote on Persivul from 901.

Did you not read what I said about no lynch? Is there something wrong with my reasoning?

But here's what's important. As I've noted, when I flip, you'll be conftown. If they don't kill conftown, it means your reads are off. So if I die today and you don't die tonight, will you consider sheeping Tanner, who read me/popo correctly?

And Tanner, you could very well die tonight. You might want to consider giving your full reads near the end of phase.

[Persivul]

This is all wifom now. Vote popo. If you lynch me we can still win, but with no margin for error it won't be an easy task.